[Deck] New Horizons

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

@kyleb: Congrats on winning! Have you considered Tabernacle if you're having problems with Goblins? It's tutorable with Knight, free and is extremely useful in all of the tribal matchups, though Goblins has been much easier than Merfolk in my experience. It also rapes Ichorid something awful. Earlier versions of the deck used to board one copy and for the life of me I can't figure out why Dave took it out. Having tested Dueling Grounds pretty extensively myself, it was probably the fastest to go among all of the cards I tested.

@j-flo: Nice report and congrats on your result! I can definitely relate to taking a new deck to a tournament, the nerves can be tough! For future, your Enchantress opponent in R7 could not legally name soldier tokens with Runed Halo because Halo targets a card (not a card type), so unless there's a printed card named "Soldier" (there's not), it would be an illegal choice.

[kyleb]

Having said all that, what I would really like to get is each of your opinions on optimum card choices / best strategies. Kyle, sounds like you didn't find the K. Grips that useful, and are looking more towards shoring up the Aggro matchups. In my (limited) testing of the deck, I would agree. I hate how Path negatively impacts our LD strategy though. Is it just a necessary evil, being the second best card to Swords in the main? I have to say I do like either Dueling Grounds or Ghostly Prison out of the SB, probably Dueling as it is a must-answer card for *all* tribal aggro and most Zoo decks. If New Horizons can slow their combat down that much, our men will just trump them, and all we have to do is focus on protecting our finishers (especially Knight/Vore) and saving our Swords to take out the most problematic threats, like an opposing Knight or Lavamancer from Zoo, or Lords of Atlantis from Merfolk. Basically, I believe it's a card that improves the efficiency of the strategy against fast aggro decks. Whether or not it's better than Rhox War Monk or Path to Exile is another question, but it seems like a good fit for the situation.

I hate the Stifles in the Zoo matchup, but I also don't like FoW that much either. So boarding out Stifle for PTE isn't bad since you want to jettison the LD plan against them anyway for the most part. FoW may be a necessary evil, but with so few blue cards, I don't know that it's all that effective. It's something that needs to be evaluated for sure, but I know that when my opponents had PTE and I did not, it was a huge disadvantage. Especially in the mirror.

Ghostly Prison is probably good too vs. a lot of different decks. I'm not really sure what the correct strategy is, to be honest. Like I said, I didn't do a lot of playtesting. :wink:

Merfolk is an easy matchup. I played it in round 7 when I had to win to be able to draw into the Top Eight, and he vialed out/cast four Lords (three Reejery, one Atlantis). The game still wasn't close since I managed my Islands with Knight/Wasteland and my guys were too huge for him to block effectively and play around Swords to Plowshares.


@kyleb: Congrats on winning! Have you considered Tabernacle if you're having problems with Goblins? It's tutorable with Knight, free and is extremely useful in all of the tribal matchups, though Goblins has been much easier than Merfolk in my experience. It also rapes Ichorid something awful. Earlier versions of the deck used to board one copy and for the life of me I can't figure out why Dave took it out. Having tested Dueling Grounds pretty extensively myself, it was probably the fastest to go among all of the cards I tested.


Tabernacle is probably decent, but it's a little slow IMO. Again, I'm not sure what the right solution is, but I think Path to Exile might be the best. It's huge in the mirror.

[jrsthethird]

Why no mention of Propaganda? Seems better than Prison since it pitches to FOW if you need to.

[j-flo]

@j-flo: Nice report and congrats on your result! I can definitely relate to taking a new deck to a tournament, the nerves can be tough! For future, your Enchantress opponent in R7 could not legally name soldier tokens with Runed Halo because Halo targets a card (not a card type), so unless there's a printed card named "Soldier" (there's not), it would be an illegal choice.
Luckily I was still able to win that game vs enchantress but I definately should have called a judge over just to double check that ruling. I read runed halo as he was naming "soldier token" thinking there might be a chance that it was an illegal play, but I chose not to call a judge over. From now on if there are any rulings that I am not sure about I will definately call a judge over. Thanks for letting me know!

I agree with Lord_Cyrus that path to exile seems like it does not have very good synergy with the mana denial plan. By mana screwing the aggro match up it can help us stop the opponents creatures from coming down, at least until we can drop one of our big creatures. If there is a vial on the board then the mana denial plan is out, but that is why EE is so good in this deck. EE can take out multiple creatures or it can take out the opponents jitte/vials. Path to exile is a very good card, but I don't think it would be best utilized in this deck.

A card that I want to test is bant charm. Vs aggro I feel that swords and EE are the best choices we are going to get with this deck, but vs control a couple of bant charms from the board may be better than the EEs. What do you guys think?

[Lord_Cyrus]

@ Kyle: Yes, you are probably right about Paths, especially as the deck becomes more popular and mirror matches more common. Whoever has the most threats will win. About the Zoo matchup, I should have considered how boarding out Stifles and Force is a fairly typical thing to do actually, for Thresh and other tempo style decks, as Zoo can exploit the card disadvantage and life loss much better than most. But yes, playing FoW is a very necessary evil. Spell Pierce might be overkill, as you suggested, but FoW I believe is fairly mandatory if you are wanting to beat combo reliably at all. No, Legacy is not different from other competitive formats. But some people who play it view it that way, and recognizing this fact can often lead to improvements in decks and archetypes. This same logic would apply to Vintage also.

@ j-flo: Right, this is a concern for me still. I'm a big believer that deck synergy or the lack of it can make cards either more or less powerful in context. I think the question we should be asking is: Does this make Path so poor that we will choose another card over it? If so, which card? I really do see Kyle's point about the mirror match though. This deck needs to prepare to be battling the mirror more often in the (near) future. Path seems like a good choice in this regard, and although it might be suboptimal in other matchups, the mirror could easily become important enough to make you want to choose Path regardless of lack of synergy. This then becomes a simple metagaming call, if you expect more mirror, play Path, if not, just play Ghostly Prison perhaps. Bant Charm is a strong card and an interesting suggestion. I love the multiple roles it can play, but I am concerned about the triple color investment. I guess I am for just testing it, and seeing how it plays out. If you can cast it reliably when you need to, then I think it's definitely an option. I like how it is still somewhat difficult to hit with Counterbalance at 3CC, and can still hit a dude if it needs to for the mirror, or against NO Bant or similar decks.

@ jrsthethird: If you don't expect Goblins packing pyroblasts, Propaganda is a safe choice. As for myself, in my own metagame I cannot safely make that decision. Thus I would rather play a non-blue card and beat the deck the SB slot is designed to beat, rather than risk blanking FoW, which in many cases as Kyle pointed out might not be that exciting to play in any of the Aggro matchups. Obviously you would like to Force their lackey, but playing out the less vulnerable Ghostly Prison might be just as strong, and we still have Swords to take him out, or Daze on the play.

[Svenanole]

Why no mention of Propaganda? Seems better than Prison since it pitches to FOW if you need to.

decks thats its good against generally play Red Elemental Blast

[jrsthethird]

Ha I forgot that minor detail.

Path seems to me to be pretty good in the mirror, because the deck generally seems to run just a basic Forest, and I would expect that to be fetched in the mirror since you know you're playing against mana denial. If you catch them with the Forest, the only thing you offer is a free shuffle. This could help them, but you can minimize the effect by playing Path around their cantrips.

[mchainmail]

Luckily I was still able to win that game vs enchantress but I definately should have called a judge over just to double check that ruling. I read runed halo as he was naming "soldier token" thinking there might be a chance that it was an illegal play, but I chose not to call a judge over. From now on if there are any rulings that I am not sure about I will definately call a judge over. Thanks for letting me know!


There are some tokens that have card names. For instance, tokens created by Goldmeadow Lookout can be named by Runed Halo, as the tokens are named Goldmeadow Harrier which is an actual card.

(I don't know if the other cards are ever relevant, or if there are others)

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah if tokens could be named I would love runed halo so much more...but as it stands, it cannot name tokens *sigh*.

In the mirror PtE is probably the best because whoever has more threats wins but it is a tricky mirror. A card that is probably better in the mirror is vendillion clique to deny them cards that matter. I also like vendillion clique + karakas, seems quite cute and very useful like spellstutter sprite was useful with riptide laboratory in extended. Clique can also be used to pitch to FoW in a pinch even if its in play because you can bounce it with karakas then remove it to FoW.

Bant charm seems interesting as a very versatile card. It can kill problem artifacts like crypt and relic, pitch to fow, win counterwars potentially by countering their FoW, counters lots of creature removal in the format, and answers problem creatures quite handily unless they have a shuffle effect on board to improve their chances of drawing the card that you put on the bottom.

Stifle seems good against zoo since it denies them mana when we stifle their fetches. This works even better against the versions with landfall dudes like steppe lynx since they run more fetches making them more susceptible. On the draw I'd board it out though for more useful cards then again the zoo MU seems kinda hard on the draw since we have 8 deadish cards in daze and stifle.

What do you people think about a 1 of academy ruins in the MD for recurring good artifacts like crypt or EE. Or possibly in the SB as a 1 of. Infinite EE's seems good against some decks.

[Svenanole]

bant charm is an expensive utility knife

clique is awesome. Heavy conrol card and does not rely upon graveyard to keep alive

i would much rather play 4 ee then have a ruins in here. 4 ee's is enough blasting already

[Davmeister84]

What did you board out for MM when facing Reanimator? I am guessing Terravore. He can be a little slow for that match up. Plus, Mage gives you blue to pitch if necessary. What did you name? I guess it would be situational...

Terravores came out, Meddling Mage came in. The naming was situational, depending on what they had played earlier and what I felt least equipped to handle at a given time.

Usually it was either Entomb or Careful Study, since I felt their enablers would be more worrisome than the actual reanimation spells.

[practical joke]

I wouldn't take out the terravores that easily.

If they drop an iona, it would definately be on white, a terravore can possibly race them when they use it with reanimate.

kotr is about as slow as terravore, but can possibly fetch a karakas, if you play one.


EE is rather useless against reanimate

[Svenanole]

EE is rather useless against reanimate

Thanks for pointing out the obvious

[ImpinAintEasy]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious

Wait a minute, EE on Hapless Researcher is Tech!

[Lord_Cyrus]

Wow... finally in the DTB Forum! Thank you Admins!

I'm still on the fence about the SB for this deck, I want to like Dueling Grounds but Ghostly Prison seems more consistently good across the board. So currently I'm thinking:

3 Path to Exile
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Terravore
2 Crucible of Worlds

[jrsthethird]

Looks good, why the Terravore?

[Lord_Cyrus]

Kyle said he wanted the 3rd Terravore in the board I believe.. If we are to run Clique in the main. anyhow that's a flex slot, you could run a lot of things.

[lordofthepit]

Would you consider replacing Ghostly Prison/Propaganda with Chill in the sideboard? It drops on the board faster and I think it has better synergy with the mana denial plan against Zoo because your opponent won't be able to burn you out or use REB as profitably, but of course, it leaves you more susceptible to their creatures (which are inferior to yours). It's also weaker against Goblins and Merfolk.

[Lord_Cyrus]

It's been mentioned before why it must be Ghostly Prison and never Propaganda. The chance to get red blasted is just too great. I like Chill as an idea but I don't think it helps enough, especially against Tribal, as you said so... Why run it? Rhox War Monk and Path to Exile seem a lot better than either of those cards against Zoo, however.

[Svenanole]

I am having problems sidebaording. (taking the list from the SCG one with Clique).

coming for some expert advise :)

ANT-
-1 EE
-4 Swords

+2 MM
+2 Monks
+1 Clique

Reanimator
-2 EE
-1 Swords
-1 KoTR
-1 Ponder
-1 Stifle
-1 Forest

+4 Cypt
+2 Meddling Mage
+1 Clique

Merfolk-
-4 Stifle

+1 EE
+1 Llawan
+2 War Monk

Zoo-
-4 Daze

+1 EE
+1 Clique
+2 War Monk

Countertop-
-1 Daze
-1 Ponder
-1 Forest
-3 ???

+1 EE
+4 Krosan Grip
+1 Clique

Varies a little bit between draw and play and how much GY hate i need, but thats the general idea. Any suggestions?

[kyleb]

I don't know that I like Ghostly Prison/Dueling Grounds due to Qasali Pridemage in the Zoo lists. It might just be better as Path to Exile and Rhox War Monk.

[jrsthethird]

Obviously this deck isn't affected by the B&R changes, but are there any considerations we should have for the pending metagame shift? Mainly, more Zoo/Lands, since both decks lose hard to combo. Zoo is already the most popular deck, but Lands beats Zoo as well so people are going to pick up lands to beat Zoo.

[lilrikki2000]

hi, im new to this deck and love it....i just have some questions:
1. i saw brief discussion about noble hierarch....wha are your thoughts about the noble in the deck?
2. i know the b & r list will change the metagame, but im still wondering what matchups u bring in meddling mage, other than tendrils? and if u bring it in for other matches, what do u name?

3. when do u sb out dazes and fows??

[routlaw]

Turn one noble means not threatening stifle against decks with fetches, which seems bad. It's also a 1CC permanent that doesn't play that well w/ Engineered Explosives.

I rarely side out Daze ever, even on the draw. The exception is against decks with few nonbasic lands. We have enough ways to mess around with mana bases (Waste, Stifle, untapped Knight getting another Wasteland, etc.) that I've never found it to be all that dead. Force of Will , on the other hand, that's a different story. Once yout start digging in the sideboard and want to bring in the additional EE or two, Krosan Grips, Crucible of Worlds, or Path to Exiles, your blue count (already low compared to , say, Canadian Threshold) becomes for the most part unworkable w/ Force of Will. I've been siding out Force of Will quite a bit because of this, maybe it's a mistake to do so but there is no worse card in the deck than Force of Will w/o something to pitch to it.

[jrsthethird]

Here is the board I'm looking at, for the post-rotation meta:

3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Path to Exile
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Krosan Grip

I'm running the Dave Price list, except -1 Vore +1 Clique. At the time, I only own 3 Canopies so if I can't get another one by the tournament I'll throw in a Savannah or 4th Trop. I also don't own the 3rd Vore, but if I did I might move the Clique to SB. Also, I only have 3 EE so when I get a 4th I think I'll go down to 2 Paths.

I'm expecting to see a lot of Zoo and the mirror (and maybe Lands...), and possibly a bunch of ANT and Reanimator, since people might want to get in their last chance to play with Mystical Tutor.

BTW, how is the Lands matchup?

[Lord_Cyrus]

It seems rather good... Knight really wrecks them with repeated Wasteland pwnage. Bojuka Bog off a Knight after boarding is often GG if you remove their loam. Often they can't survive even 1 hit from our large men - Knight and Vore. Crucible is pretty strong against them too. Hell, this deck is kind of a Land player's nightmare. The only real hope they have is to get a sick draw with Manabond and dump their hand too fast for you to get a good start. But that's why we have FoW.

[jrsthethird]

How does this sound for Lands?

+3 Crypt
+1 Bog
+2 Crucible
+2 Grip

-4 Stifle
-2 Daze
-2 EE

Seems good on the play, on the draw do we keep in EE and take out Daze, hoping to blow up an early Exploration or Manabond? Grip isn't brought in for the 1cc enchantments so much as it is for sideboard hate like Ensnaring Bridge or Meekstone or something like that.

Also, I was testing against Eva Green tonight and it wasn't going too well. I was boarding out -4 Stifle, -1 Force, -1 Daze for 2 RWM, 3 Path, 1 EE. Good call? I figured I needed more answers to fast dudes (and Tombstalker), and the mana denial plan isn't so hot when they have so many cheap, efficient threats.

[BantFTW]

Board out stifles lol :O?
It's good if they get lands in their graveyard so...
But that's my thinking.

I mean this second game^^

And against Eva Green I'm not having big problems...
You can outraise them easely but yeah a fast tombstalker is shit^^
And I woudn't go in your sideboard from 3 paths to 2 and +1 EE...
Path is really important but the problems is that they get a land but decks like zoo don't play many
basic lands so it woudn't be a problem.

[five]

How does this sound for Lands?

+3 Crypt
+1 Bog
+2 Crucible
+2 Grip

-4 Stifle
-2 Daze
-2 EE

Seems good on the play, on the draw do we keep in EE and take out Daze, hoping to blow up an early Exploration or Manabond? Grip isn't brought in for the 1cc enchantments so much as it is for sideboard hate like Ensnaring Bridge or Meekstone or something like that.

Also, I was testing against Eva Green tonight and it wasn't going too well. I was boarding out -4 Stifle, -1 Force, -1 Daze for 2 RWM, 3 Path, 1 EE. Good call? I figured I needed more answers to fast dudes (and Tombstalker), and the mana denial plan isn't so hot when they have so many cheap, efficient threats.

Too bad there is no Meddling Mage in your sideboard, he is sick naming Loam. I guess with ANT dead, there is much less need for him. Mystical Tutor was actually a good target for MM lol.

I agree that Eva Green is a tough match up. I find their abundance of removal the most difficult challange though, not their threats necessarily. Do you have an answer for Deeds? That wrecks face pretty badly. Grips may not be a bad idea because they can hit Deeds and Jitte. I would keep Stifle in too, so you can hit their Wasteland and Deeds. I might try -2EE and -2Daze for +2 Grips and +2RWM. I wouldn't worry as much about their dudes, since 'Vore will just pound through for the win. I think the Rhinos are more to increase your threat density than for Lifelink. Maybe you are playing against a build with more threats than I am used to. If so, EE seems pretty good.

[aznepyon7]

I'm running a template decklist that runs 2 instead of 3 Terravores and one less land for 2 Crucibles. Recurring Wastelands and Horizon Canopy is just so strong IMO and really helps when the game drags on. Clique-Karakas is really good but I don't feel it's as pertinent now that ANT and combo aren't as strong as before due to the banning of Mystical Tutor.

Another option is to run a 3rd Engineered Explosives and a blue card (Maybe RWM) instead of the crucibles. It's strong against Zoo, Merfolk, and most other aggro.

I agree with five on all the comments on Eva Green but I'm not convinced that Vore is enough as they pack loads of removal. IMO, stifle is better at stopping Deed than Grip - it just seems that grip is too situational while stifle can handle Wasteland and their fetches (BB is very important for them) as well.

[lilrikki2000]

other than storm, what decks do u board in meddling mage? and wat do u call?

Terrible post. Pretty much breaks every guideline in the "Writing Skills" section of our Site Rules.

Please review those and shape up.

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Bardo

[jrsthethird]

Too bad there is no Meddling Mage in your sideboard, he is sick naming Loam. I guess with ANT dead, there is much less need for him. Mystical Tutor was actually a good target for MM lol.

I agree that Eva Green is a tough match up. I find their abundance of removal the most difficult challange though, not their threats necessarily. Do you have an answer for Deeds? That wrecks face pretty badly. Grips may not be a bad idea because they can hit Deeds and Jitte. I would keep Stifle in too, so you can hit their Wasteland and Deeds. I might try -2EE and -2Daze for +2 Grips and +2RWM. I wouldn't worry as much about their dudes, since 'Vore will just pound through for the win. I think the Rhinos are more to increase your threat density than for Lifelink. Maybe you are playing against a build with more threats than I am used to. If so, EE seems pretty good.

I guess I should have been more specific. He wasn't running Deed or Wastelands (but he mentioned putting them back, he would have to cut 2 threats to keep the mana right), so my only target for Stifle was a fetch or weird shit like Nantuko Shade pumps. He was running Maelstrom Pulse instead of Deed, which is un-Grip-able, and I think his Jittes were in the board, which also helps increase his threat density.

Mostly I couldn't really get a guy to stick, and I had to play around Maelstrom Pulse which was hard.

[Svenanole]

i am thinking with the bannings of tutor, we should play pithing needle instead of mm

path sucks, i would prefer to play submerge

with the influx of spot removal, I would say sejiri steppe is a great card as a 1 of.

---

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Bardo

[BantFTW]

Could you post your deck and sideboard plz, astopeyonz7 :O?
And what do you guys do against a gobblin deck, it's so hard ^^
I've got 3 paths sb atm so..

[jrsthethird]

with the influx of spot removal, I would say sejiri steppe is a great card as a 1 of.

Sejiri Steppe is good, but this isn't Standard were we can afford to have an ETBT land. We would need to remove a spell for it, and if we draw it, it's absolutely horrid. Bojuka Bog isn't so bad when drawn out of the board, sure, it loses the surprise factor but can still devastate the decks it's good against.

[luckymartyr]

I am new to this deck and have a question about the manabase. Why run a singleton forest and windswept heaths instead of a singleton island and flooded strands. It seems like fetching a basic island on turn one to stifle, brainstorm, or ponder is a solid play. Wastelands usually disrupt earlier rather than later. Is this simply because of knight of the reliquary only being able to sacrifice forests and plains?

[lordofthepit]

I am new to this deck and have a question about the manabase. Why run a singleton forest and windswept heaths instead of a singleton island and flooded strands. It seems like fetching a basic island on turn one to stifle, brainstorm, or ponder is a solid play. Wastelands usually disrupt earlier rather than later. Is this simply because of knight of the reliquary only being able to sacrifice forests and plains?

I think someone (more experienced than me with New Horizons) mentioned earlier that it allows you to cast Terravore more reliably, as the only card in the deck with two mana of the same color required.

[aznepyon7]

I think someone (more experienced than me with New Horizons) mentioned earlier that it allows you to cast Terravore more reliably, as the only card in the deck with two mana of the same color required.

Right. Terravore is pretty huge and decks that play PtE over STP are more aggro based that can't allow you to gain too much life. Getting Vore out at that point is pretty crucial.

If you expect to see a lot of Zoo and such, the single forest can be pretty important.

[BantFTW]

I never tested against Zoo but is it so hard :O?
We've got alot of zoo and no lands.
The rest was alot of ANT, but I don't think that will be played much now :P
So yeah we'll see...

[anonymos]

I've noticed a lot of issues locally with aggro matchups. Maybe it's me playing silly. Not sure.
Testing a single card change main deck and some changes in the board. Looked good at yesterdays GPT. If it goes well from todays, I'll let ya'all know.

[jrsthethird]

Just got back from a local event with about 24 people. Finished 3-2, 6th place with best breakers of all the 9 point people.

I don't have much time to write this up, but here's a general summary:

Round 1 - Mono-W Stax - 2-1, able to win on the play with 6-card and 5-card hands, respectively, but I can't beat a turn 1 Trinisphere on the draw. Couldn't find Crucible for the life of me games 2 and 3.

Round 2 - Budget Fish - 2-0, He almost raced me game 1 with Wake Thrasher + Lord of Atlantis, but Goyf was 5/6 since he played Aquitect's Will, giving him +2/+2. Game 1 was easy as pie.

Round 3 - CounterTop Thopter - 0-2, He got the lock both games and I couldn't draw anything relevant. I punted game 2 by not searching for Bojuka Bog with an active Knight while he was using Crucible + Mishra's Factory to make a Thopter every turn. I was waiting for the Sword since I only had 1 Bog.

Round 4 - Supreme Blue - 1-2, Active Top seems to be a problem for me, and on top of that I kept drawing blanks game 3. I drew like 5 lands in a row while trying to find an answer to a Trygon Predator attacking me for 7 turns under a Meekstone. =/

Round 5 - Zoo - 2-0, Had a pretty clutch EE for 1 to kill Steppe Lynx, Nacatl, and Lavamancer, he couldn't recover from that. Also, he tried to swing a 3/3 Nacatl with Pridemage out into my 4/4 Terravore, I Stifled the trigger and he was a sad kitty. I was afraid of this matchup but it didn't seem too bad.

I played the board I posted previously, with -1 Path +1 EE. I absolutely loved EE and would not run any less than 4 in my 75. I didn't like the maindeck Clique and I need to get a third Terravore. Also, what would you guys do vs. a CounterTop deck?

[BantFTW]

Vs counterop, try to hold them off lands is a good thing
And don't let them get cb-top^^

[aznepyon7]

Round 5 - Zoo - 2-0, Had a pretty clutch EE for 1 to kill Steppe Lynx, Nacatl, and Lavamancer, he couldn't recover from that. Also, he tried to swing a 3/3 Nacatl with Pridemage out into my 4/4 Terravore, I Stifled the trigger and he was a sad kitty. I was afraid of this matchup but it didn't seem too bad.?

Zoo is a good matchup for Horizon in general. EE sure wrecks it, especially the cat version.


I played the board I posted previously, with -1 Path +1 EE. I absolutely loved EE and would not run any less than 4 in my 75. I didn't like the maindeck Clique and I need to get a third Terravore. Also, what would you guys do vs. a CounterTop deck?

Yeah Clique wasn't my thing either. But the vores are pretty awesome.

As for Countertop, I'm thinking of trying out Null Rod. It shuts down SDT and since Mask and Monolith are now unbanned, I think we will see decks like Affinity/Dreadstill become more prominent. Some variants also have janky mana bases. Otherwise, it's basically hoping for Grips.

[jrsthethird]

My board was

3 Grip
3 Crypt
1 Bog
2 EE
2 Path
2 RWM
2 Crucible

I'm thinking I should cut a Crypt for a Grip, now that Reanimator should be less prevalent. Thoughts?

[anonymos]

So back with my results from yesterday. I was trying firespout out of the board to smooth over the zoo, goblins and other random jank aggro matchups that the GPT's around here are showing. I dropped a fetch from the main for a Taiga to support it. It worked pretty well as it is more or less a one sided wrath.

[j-flo]

So back with my results from yesterday. I was trying firespout out of the board to smooth over the zoo, goblins and other random jank aggro matchups that the GPT's around here are showing. I dropped a fetch from the main for a Taiga to support it. It worked pretty well as it is more or less a one sided wrath.
I like the idea anonymos. Did it help at all?

I think that after mystical tutor is gone, maybe we should try to fit some firespouts into the sideboard. Seems like there is no better time for more people to try to play aggro decks after the two best combo decks take a huge hit. Obviously a ton of people are not going to want to play reanimator or ANT anymore, so the amount of aggro decks in the legacy metagames with definitely rise. People have been talking about trying to fit some path to exiles in the board for the zoo match up, but giving your opponent an extra land is never a good idea(especially in a mana denial deck). In my opinion, if the amount of aggro decks do raise in numbers, then it only makes sense to adapt to the new meta. We could easily change the maindecked basic forest into a taiga and find 2-3 spots for some firespouts in the sideboard. What do you guys think?

[BantFTW]

Why not main lol :P?
I play a cb list with the same idea with 3 firespouts main and also EE's ^^
It really ain't hard anymore then lol and eventually you can also play soem grim lavamancer's in the side if you want, it's a gamewin against merfolk, gobblins so :O woudn't be bad either...

But yeah we'll see :P
I'll make a list and post it today with 2 taiga's and 3 firespouts and I really think main to play them ain't bad lol^^

[anonymos]

I like the idea anonymos. Did it help at all?

I think that after mystical tutor is gone, maybe we should try to fit some firespouts into the sideboard. Seems like there is no better time for more people to try to play aggro decks after the two best combo decks take a huge hit. Obviously a ton of people are not going to want to play reanimator or ANT anymore, so the amount of aggro decks in the legacy metagames with definitely rise. People have been talking about trying to fit some path to exiles in the board for the zoo match up, but giving your opponent an extra land is never a good idea(especially in a mana denial deck). In my opinion, if the amount of aggro decks do raise in numbers, then it only makes sense to adapt to the new meta. We could easily change the maindecked basic forest into a taiga and find 2-3 spots for some firespouts in the sideboard. What do you guys think?

Yes. It helps. I don't like losing to dumb aggro. Goblins, zoo and their ilk are all things I despise losing to. As such, I try to twist decks slightly to have positive matchups for them consistently. I ran 2 the first day I tried them in the board, and tried a third the second day. I'm not sure which way I'd run with if the GP were tomorrow though.

DO NOT replace the basic forest. It's there for two reasons in my opinion. One is that it's a green source that doesn't get wasted for 'vore. The other reason is Back to Basics/Blood Moon game 2/3. Can't play Grip off of a Taiga when Blood Moon hits.

[Svenanole]

If you are looking to drop a land, I would drop the 4th horizon canopy or a tundra for it. The 8th fetch is good with Knight/Vore. I find the 4th canopy rather annoying so I have dropped it because of the pain

[anonymos]

Also a good thought. I'll look into that idea this weekend.

[j-flo]

If you are looking to drop a land, I would drop the 4th horizon canopy or a tundra for it. The 8th fetch is good with Knight/Vore. I find the 4th canopy rather annoying so I have dropped it because of the pain
If people are uncomfortable cutting the basic forest, then I agree with cutting a horizon canopy. It seems like those are the only two lands that would not hurt the deck if they were removed. It might even be smarter only playing with 3 horizon canopies, because in multiples they definitely pile up the life loss. As for taking out a tundra or a fetch, that would lower the blue land count, and lowering the odds of getting a blue land in your opening hand does not seem right to me. Not being able to ponder/brainstorm, stifle, or even daze from the start of the game might cause some serious problems. The basic forest or a horizon canopy just seem like the overall best candidates to cut in order to find room for a taiga.

[practical joke]

If I ever decide to play firespout sideboard, the taiga will definately be in sideboard.
If they see taiga the first game, they can see it coming miles away.

I also don't play a basic mountain,but then again I don't have magus of the moon and blood moon in my meta. ( except for the occassional belcher player)

[Svenanole]

I also don't play a basic mountain,but then again I don't have magus of the moon and blood moon in my meta. ( except for the occassional belcher player)

If they play a moon effect, all of your non basics become mountains so i dont think you have to worry about having a basic mountain ;)

[Purgatory]

If people are uncomfortable cutting the basic forest, then I agree with cutting a horizon canopy. It seems like those are the only two lands that would not hurt the deck if they were removed. It might even be smarter only playing with 3 horizon canopies, because in multiples they definitely pile up the life loss. As for taking out a tundra or a fetch, that would lower the blue land count, and lowering the odds of getting a blue land in your opening hand does not seem right to me. Not being able to ponder/brainstorm, stifle, or even daze from the start of the game might cause some serious problems. The basic forest or a horizon canopy just seem like the overall best candidates to cut in order to find room for a taiga.

Maybe cut a land for Volcanic Island then? It will make Firespout less flexible on the spot, but it won't lower your blue land count...

[anonymos]

I chose Taiga because it helps make the Terravore happen easier. You usually don't fetch it until game 2 or 3.

[BantFTW]

Anonymos, what did you changed and do you play the firespouts mainboard??
Could you plz post your decklist?

ty

[Lord_Cyrus]

So, essentially we are making this deck into some sort of Super Ultimate Supreme Blue? Is this really the right direction to take the deck in the new meta? I'm asking this because I really have no clue. Maybe only GP Columbus will be enough to show us which way is the way forward.

[jrsthethird]

I really think right now the maindeck needs no help. I only see a couple spots where you might want to play with, the 4th Canopy or the 3rd Terravore.

Splashing red for Firespout in the board is a terrible idea. If you're having a problem with aggro, we have Ghostly Prison, as well as Path, which goes against the mana plan, but the matchups that it is good in, we can generally afford to give them a basic. I only run two so I prefer to see them late game, where the mana denial plan has run it's course. Especially since I expect to see the mirror a lot, we know they run 1 basic and will likely fetch it game 2 and 3 once they know you're playing NH.

[anonymos]

Splashing red for Firespout in the board is a terrible idea. If you're having a problem with aggro, we have Ghostly Prison, as well as Path, which goes against the mana plan, but the matchups that it is good in, we can generally afford to give them a basic.

I would normally agree, but it is changed for local play. In a normal event here, I'll see 3-5 zoo, some goblins, and potentially some other tribal nonsense (slivers, merfolk, elves). There is also a bunch of Enchantress (we figured out we could make it a full third of the tournament at a 30 person event last week). I want an option that works for all of them. That's why I'm not posting the changes I made. Well, that and because I think people posting lists every 3rd post is a waste of time.

[jrsthethird]

Ah, ok, makes sense. I missed that. In an unknown meta, it seems bad.

What do you do for the ton of Enchantress? You might like the new 1G instant Tranquility that was just spoiled for M11.

[jandax]

No kidding, immediately thought of Legacy when I read that spoilage.

[anonymos]

I've been using that 1G sorcery from Mirage that destroys global enchantments. Can't think of the name and my decks are at a friends cause I was going camping and they were going to a tournament.

EDIT: Tranquil Domain

[jandax]

Yeah but an Instant is even better. And it'll be easy to come by if one plays limited regularly. Solidarity is a sad panda

[Lord_Cyrus]

If you plan for it, Enchantress is pretty easy to wreck. They basically are praying that nobody will play the hate for them because it's so narrow. You could even play good ol' normal tranquility and destroy them. At 1G and instant(!!), it's now even easier. If you expect tons of cheezy enchantress, play 3-4 of these in the board and never look back.

[BantFTW]

Idk but I think vexing sphinx is a really good card, discard lands and terravore and knight get bigger =O?
And it flies what ain't bad eiither, it's just an idea but yeah I really like it :P
And it also doesn't die like from a bolt or something so...

Do you guys like this card, I would play it 2x and what to replace for it?

[Jayzonious]

Vexing Sphinx might be the worst suggestion for the deck in this thread for reasons I feel are obvious and don't need explaining.

[Jayzonious]

I did very well with New Horizons this Saturday at the Jupiter Games North American Championship Qualifier. I qualified in 2nd place out of 69, then lost in the first round of the top 8 vs. Zoo. I'll write up a short report on card choices and how I felt they worked for me.

First of all, the deck list:

Maindeck:
1 Karakas
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Islands
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmagoyf
3 Terravore
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard:
3 Krsan Grip
2 Meddling Mage
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Path to Exile
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

I went 2-1 every match except for in the top 8.

Round 1 Glimpse of Nature/Kobold Combo - He was able to cast Glimpse against me while I had no counter, then proceeded to combo off. Wrecked his mana base, held counters for combo cards. Relatively easy match.

Round 2 Blue Lands - Basically just countered the business spells for lands ie, Manabond, Intuition. Kept him off colored mana the best I could, Wastelanding Maze of Ith when possible. Manabond sneaked through one game then he proceeded to wreck me. Meddling Mage naming Life from the Loam Game 2 and 3 was very helpful.

Round 3 UWB Landstill - Tough match, he had alot of removal and counters and Jace 2.0. Wrecked mana base and hold counters for his removal. Caught me off guard game 2 with Crucible of Worlds Wastelock, managed to fight through it by dropping fetches and not cracking them, but by the time I had enough mana he had plenty of removal waiting for me. I was glad to win this match because my opponent came off as a dick, as I played him the month before beating him and he refused a good game handshake and told me "No offense but that was bullshit" or something. Cry cry.

Round 4 Hive Mind Combo - This guy was totally cool, and caught me completely off guard with the deck. When I lost to a turn 3 Show and Tell Hive Mind into Pact of the Titan, all I could do was laugh at the way I lost. Games 2 and 3 just held counters and stifle, wrecked mana base and continued to beat. Meddling Mage naming Show and Tell was good.

Round 5 NoBantCB - Very familiar with this match up. Wreck mana base, continue to win. He got a NO off and stole a game. Meddling Mage naming Natural Order and then a 2nd naming Counterbalance was good. Very nice opponent, continued to chat with him all day.

Round 6 ID

Round 7 ID

Top 8

Round 1 Zoo - Game one I start with a opener of double goyf, stifle, knight. I knew he was playing Zoo and this seemed good. He mulls and I win. Game 2 I stuck with a Tundra and Wasteland, then was unable to see green mana ( Brainstorm into KoR, Kor, Tundra with no shuffle possible) until turn 7ish, while holding Goyf/KoR since turn 2. Game 3 was a grind, he has KoR and Wild Nactl on board, I'm at 15 and have a 4/4 sickness KoR/Rhox War Monk. He swings with a 6/6 KoR and I choose to take it, he has 3 cards in hand. I'm holding daze and figure I can hang on one more turn at 9, have a good board position and active knight. He has 5 lands and goes Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, and Lightning Bolt!!! I think I made the mistake of boarding out 4x Ponder for 2 Path 2 Rhox instead of taking 4x FoW out.

Notes of card choices I would change:

Karakas doesn't seem as necessary now that Mystical Tutor is banned and Reanimator is slowed.

I boarded in 2 Path to Exile in the Zoo match, and saw both of them game 2 and 3. They really seemed to suck as it gave them basics and made my mana denial/daze plan pretty futile.

Faerie Macabre was pretty terrible vs Lands.

Meddling Mage was such a house all day and I didn't play ANT or Renimator. People are justifying not using Meddling Mage after the recent banning, but I wouldn't be so quick to get rid of this guy.

Thanks for reading, hope it makes sense as I didn't really write down notes! :cool:

[routlaw]

Congrats on the T8 at a big tourney. :) . I've had similar experiences against Bant Counterbalance, they have a very difficult time doing anything against you without the big Hydra.

Q: Are you missing the 2 Engineered Explosives from your main deck?

SB comments:

I've found Faerie Macabre to be bad versus anything not Reanimator, honestly. Tormod's Crypt is just so much more versatile in more matchups. It's not hard for a Lands player to protect their Life form the Loam.

Bojuka Bog is extremely good in the board. It turns four Knight of the Reliquary into a (somewhat slow) tutor for Tormod's Crypt. I play one and have never been dissapointed in doing so.

Meddling Mage is so great. I've tested the best options for that slot-Clique, Spell Pierce, Meddling Mage, and found Meddling Mage to be a good fit for the deck.

I really like 2 EE in the sideboard and just running with two Krosan Grips vs. 1 EE in the board and 3 grips. EE can dance around Counterbalance and still bag it for suburst two, and is extremely efficient against Zoo (EE@1), Belcher/Dredge (EE@0), and other cards. EE is rarely a dead card in hand where as Krosan Grip sometimes is.

I've thought about running Oust in the board instead of Path to Exile as it is much more syngeristic with the mana denial plan (that creature might come back , but you still aren't going to be drawing into lands for at least one more turn) and I don't mind having them gain three life that much. PTE sucks really hard if they have a Sylvan Library out, and this is relevant since the MU (Zoo) you want more removal the most in often maindecks the card.

Just another note-the blue count sure does get dangerously low when you board in three non-blue cards. I've had very mixed success with sideboarding in these situations and is one of the few quibbles I have about the deck design.

[Jayzonious]

Oops, just edited above, I did run the 2 EE main. It was pretty good all day.

Funny thing is I can honestly say I did not tap KoR for his ability all day. Not once! This is probably due to matching up against control/combo mainly. Normally when I use his ability it is after he is declared a blocker vs aggro.

Turn 4 GY hate seems a bit slow, this is why I chose not to run Bojuka Bog, although in the future I think I will drop 2x Faerie Macabre and put in 1 Bojuka Bog, netting me an extra sideboard slot while still having access to tutorable GY hate.

The damage from fetches and horizon canopy definitely adds up against Zoo. Not sure what to replace the Karakas with, although I was leaning towards Maze of Ith, but I'd have to do some testing on that.

[jrsthethird]

Good posts Jay and routlaw, glad to see something intelligent in here for once. :)

I played in the GPT on Sunday at Jupiter Games, came in 24th out of 67 with a 4-3 record.

Maindeck: (exact David Price list from Philly 5K)
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmagoyf
3 Terravore
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
4 Daze
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Path to Exile
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Bojuka Bog

Round 1 - Jeremy - Mirror (with Armageddon) - Win 2-0
Game 1 - We both have similar starts, with fetches and cantrips, no Stifles on either side but I figure he's playing NH since it seems to be very popular in the meta. He leads with a Goyf, I STP it, and a couple turns later he has 3 lands to my 4, drops a Mox Diamond, and Armageddons. He can't draw into any more lands, and if he did, I had Stifle/Wasteland for them, I landed a Terravore a couple turns later and he couldn't answer.
SB: -2 EE, -2 Swords, -1 Daze, +2 Path, +2 Crucible, +1 Bog
Game 2 - Even start, but he lands his Crucible early and I realize that I don't have an answer for it, because I forgot to put in Grips. Anyway, I don't remember how the rest of the game developed but eventually I landed my own Crucible, then he Bojuka Bogged my graveyard. I got an active Knight and Bogged his yard. We played back and forth trying to get an edge, when he made a crucial misplay allowing me to blow up both of our Bogs with double Wasteland, and then Bog his graveyard again to remove his Bog for good. I built up a board position from there with and eventually finished him off.

I asked him how Armageddon worked for him after the match and he said he was just trying it out, but it really seemed to screw him game 1 when he couldn't find any more lands (I still had 2 in hand and didn't miss any drops).

We had a lunch break after round 1 (odd, usually it's after round 2), and I realized how badly I messed up the SB plan. One reason why I chose Path for the board was that I was expecting the mirror and when both decks run only 11 creatures, having 6 Swords effects over 4 Swords effects can really tip the scales in your favor (not to mention that you only run 1 basic and usually it's fetched early to prevent Wasteland, so Path has absolutely no downside). Unfortunately I forgot that and did a 1 for 1 swap. Also, I felt really dumb for forgetting the Grip because I know Crucible is key in this matchup.
1-0

Round 2 - John - Mirror - Lose 2-1
Game 1 - This is the first time I've played a blue deck in quite some time, so some of the things are a little new to me and I need to adjust. I walked dead into Daze 2 or 3 times this game and it cost me big time.
I sideboarded better, I think it was -2 EE, -2 Ponder, -1 Heath, -2 FOW/Daze (some combination), +2 Grip, +2 Path, +2 Crucible, +1 EE
Game 2 - He mulls to 6, and fetches his basic Forest, making the 2 Paths I see fantastic. I outclass him with creatures and removal, and we go to 3.
Game 3 - I forget how this transpired, but it was even for a while. He has Horizon Canopy and Wasteland on board, so I'm holding back my Stifles and letting him fetch, since I felt like it would be better to save my lands or keep him off of an extra card, so he gets to 5 mana and plays Worm Harvest. 2 Retraces and 15 tokens later, he swings, and I can block and then Swords my Goyf to gain life, but it would put me exactly at 0 and I'm done.
1-1

After the match, I realize that with Tundra and Wasteland on board (and only 3 other lands), I did not realize to check and make sure he had the GGG available to cast it. =/ Maybe he did, but this is something I should have been aware of during the game.

Round 3 - Andrew - RB Goblins - Win 2-0
Game 1 - I keep a hand of 3x KOTR, Force, Brainstorm, Canopy, Trop. I win the roll and play Trop, he leads with a turn 1 Vial. I Brainstorm, and Force it, pitching a Stifle I just drew. I play land, go, he misses a land drop and plays Lackey. I drop a turn 3 Knight, he plays a land next turn and drops Mogg War Marshal. I play a Knight and Waste his Badlands, he plays another Lackey, I play my 3rd Knight and swing, he scoops after I STP one of his Lackeys.
I'm not sure what I boarded out but 2 EE and 2 RWM came in.
Game 2 - We both mulligan, I keep a hand of Canopy, EE, STP, RWM, Forest, Heath, which seemed to be an almost perfect 6 card hand against him, and he mulled to 5. I Swords a Lackey, and he stumbles with land again. I get RWM on turn 3, he has Warren Weirding. I land a Goyf (5/6 now, because of Tribal Sorcery!), and he plays Matron and finds another Weirding. I Waste his only Badlands, and he can't find another one to kill the Goyf.
2-1

Round 4 - Drew - Grixis Painter - Lose 2-1
Game 1 - Eventually I realize what he's trying to do after seeing maindeck REB and seeing him hardcast a Relic to kill a Terravore. He assembles the combo, naming blue, and I Swords the Painter in response to the Grindstone activation. He Forces, pitching a Polluted Delta. I thought I was done, but I was confused how he pitched a land. Once he reminded me that everything was blue, I Forced his Forced, pitching a fetch of my own (I had no real blue cards), and the Swords resolved. I managed to beat him down from there and win, but the game took a while so he was trying to rush me in the next two rounds and I couldn't handle the pressure very well.
I forget the sideboard, I added the EEs and Grips, I don't remember what I took out. I kept all 4 Forces in since they work well with Painter on U.
Game 2 - He set up CB/Top, and I was not thinking clearly at all and ran ALL 4 of my Goyfs right into the soft lock and lost them all. He beat me down with Trinket Mage and Painter for the win.
Game 3 - We were approaching time, and I completely punted this because I was too rushed to think through my moves. I didn't Force his Counterbalance, I missed a turn where I could have dropped a Terravore and attacked the next turn for the win, and I fought over a Goyf that I didn't really need. he had Grindstone on board for forever with Top, and on turn 3 of turns he finally found the Painter he needed to resolve and win.
2-2

I was furious after this round, and my friend was sitting behind me watching me play and I was so pissed at how I completely dropped the ball here. I guess it's something you need to learn from when you've only been playing in large-scale tournaments for 6 months and you're playing a style of deck you've never played before.

Round 5 - Ryan - Lands (with Living Wish) - Win 2-0
I knew he was playing Lands because my friend played him earlier in the tournament, and I was looking forward to it because I actually enjoy playing against the deck. It's really similar to Dredge in that it is absurdly powerful, but ultimately every match with it (other than when it gets the absolute nuts draw) comes down to player skill, on both sides.
Game 1 - I knew he was on Lands and saw 2 Terravores in my opener. Obvious keep. I see something like turn 1 or 2 Living Wish for Bob, and I'm not sure what to think of it. Once I land double Terravore he transmutes Tolaria West for a Glacial Chasm and passes. I play my Wasteland, kill the Chasm, and swing for the win.
Sideboard: -4 STP, -2 Ponder, -1 Forest, -2 Daze+2 Crucible, +1 Bog, +2 Crypt, +4 Grip
Game 2 - I land an early Crucible and hold stuff in hand to protect it, while controlling his board with Wasteland. He has Exploration, so I can't lock him out of the game, but I can significantly slow him down. He lands an Ensnaring Bridge before I could drop a threat. Once I land a Knight, I start doing tricks with Wasteland and end up Bojuka Bogging him 3 times (removing 3 Factories and Mindslaver, so he loses practically all maindeck win conditions. He Wishes for Fleshbag Marauder, so I drop a Goyf to absorb the hit. He wishes for Indrik Stomphowler, I Stifle the ETB trigger. He transmutes for Tabernacle when I have 3 lands and 3 guys, I sac everyone but the Knight and keep digging for outs with Horizon Canopies. Eventually I forget to pay for Tabernacle, but I have a Knight in my hand to replace it. Eventually I find the Grip, and 2 attacks with Knight gives me the win.
3-2

I think he really missed a lot of opportunities here, and for some reason he didn't go for Meloku once he got Manabond out. Also, he never tried to transmute for Tormod's Crypt to nuke my yard, which would have helped him immensely.

Round 6 - Matt - Mono-R Burn - Lose 2-1
FUCK BURN. All three games were close, but it's such a dumb deck! Not writing anything about it because it's boring.
3-3

Round 7 - Jeremy - ProBant - Win 2-0
I have no notes for this match since I was frustrated and just wanted to play for pride and rating points. All I remember is that the mana denial plan worked great both games, and in Game 2, a 3rd turn Grip on a 2nd turn Top that he never had a chance to activate really helped a lot. I Wasted both his Trops, leaving him on a Forest and a Plains for the rest of the game. Very easy match.
4-3

All in all, I had a lot of fun, but it was disheartening that I punted 2 matches I really could (and should) have won. This deck is absurdly powerful and I can't wait to play it again. Sideboard was pretty good, I feel like the War Monks are underwhelming, and the Paths were a metagame choice. I picked up 2 Dueling Grounds that day, since I played at Cyborg One in Doylestown the night before and lost miserably to Elf Aggro (2nd time in 2 appearances there with this deck). I might work them into the board, but I don't really know.

I feel fortunate that I won the Goblins match, because that's the only one that seemed bad for me (I am not acknowledging Burn as a real deck). Everything else really depended on how well I played the matchup, I won the 3 that I played better, and lost the 2 where I didn't.

Props:
Johnson College
Eli for having awesome tournaments
Free Axe spray for stinky players
Cube drafting until 2:30 am after getting home, even though our car started great and bombed
Ken for finishing dead last, again
Dave Price for making this sick deck

Slops:
Finishing worst in the backseat of the car and having to ride bitch, only due to bad tiebreakers (the two people in the front both did worse =/)
Harry losing to Lands with Dragon Stompy
Ken for getting pulled over twice on the way there
Wizards for the recent announcement
Terrible play errors

Jay, why no Crucible? That card is absolutely amazing for us in long games and really tilts the favor in our side. I played against UWr Landstill at Cyborg and won because I was able to kill every R source in their deck with it. He tried to cast EE for 3, but only had Tundras and an Island, and he was stuck with Ajani Vengeant in hand. I think you're crazy for not running it, especially since you know the meta at Jupiter and it is amazing in the mirror. Also, I was testing against Zoo before the tournament, playing only game 1's, and it seemed to go about 60-40 in my favor. Not sure if he was keeping bad hands or what, but I don't think our Zoo matchup is that bad at all. The mana denial plan works great against them.

[jrsthethird]

Just another note-the blue count sure does get dangerously low when you board in three non-blue cards. I've had very mixed success with sideboarding in these situations and is one of the few quibbles I have about the deck design.

If you board in RWM or MM, it helps. I usually end up taking out a couple FOWs or Dazes, depending on the matchup and whether I'm on the play or draw. it's a little awkward but doesn't seem to bother me too much.

[Jayzonious]

I didn't run Crucible because I was guessing the meta would be made up of mostly Aggro/Combo. I expected alot of last ditch efforts from Reanimator and ANT, and alot of Merfolk to combat these decks, so I left it out not expecting to play alot of control.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to stick it back on the SB, it is pretty sick.

[Derm]

This is just an idea, but I think it could work. It has tested well for me, but I haven't played it in a tournament yet.

Dark Horizons

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Karakas

SB

2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
4 Krosan Grip
3 Meddling Mage
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt

Dark Confidant
It may seem greedy to put Bob into this tempo deck, particularly when it comes to the manabase, but I've found that he is just unbelievable here.

First of all, the mana isn't that big of an issue. If you'll recall, Nassif did the same thing in his CounterTop deck from a while ago. Currently there are 15 Blue sources, 14 Green sources, 14 White sources, and 10 Black sources---if anyone thinks they can do a better job with the math and optimize this a little, please do so. It has been working just fine for me. I got hands with insufficient mana about 2 out of 10 times, which is fairly average. Would including a Savannah for a Horizon Canopy be good, to make it so you can fetch both colors at once? Would one Underground Sea be adequate?

Second of all, in every deck he's in, Bob provides one of my favorite intangible effects in the game of Magic: he demands an answer, or your opponent is going to flat-out lose because you bury them in card advantage. In this deck more than most, landing him means that they just won't be able to come back, since the stuff you'll be drawing into kills their lands and counters their spells. Also, by 'demanding an answer,' Bob forces your opponents into a very tough decision: kill the Bob with my removal spell, or wait for the Knight and kill that. If they kill the Bob, your Knight is probably going to survive; if they don't, you're going to draw into extra Knights and/or countermagic to force one through. Again, this seems straight forward, but think about it. Many decks only run 4 STP as removal. This ultimatum is a back-breaker, no matter how your opponents respond.

Bob fits into the curve of what this deck wants to be doing more than you'd think. You've got to test it to believe it. Normally you don't really have a turn 2 play. Pondering or Brainstorming is fine, but how much better is it to slam a game-changer like Bob down? Goyf is small on turn 2, and yeah it's still good to play him then sometimes depending on the matchup, but any hand where you can cast a turn two Bob is strictly better. If your opponent doesn't have an immediate answer in the form of a Daze or Force or Swords, you're already winning; if they do, it's been a common play for me to use my Force or Daze to muscle Bob down/protect him, knowing that if I get him active, I'm going to win the countermagic attrition war (and the game) since I'll be drawing 2 cards a turn. It sucks if they counter your counters and you don't get him active, but in that case you've come out ahead on cards and hopefully you have some action left.

Turn 1 Stifle a fetchland (AKA Time Walk + Sinkhole) followed by an uncontested turn 2 Bob is the NUTS. Game over. I haven't lost yet when I've made that play. It obviously happens most when you are on the play, but in Game 1 if your opponents don't know what your deck is, you can occasionally catch them waiting to crack their fetch until after you've already played a land, in which case you can punish them. It's way better than turn 1 stifle into turn 2 Goyf or turn 2 Ponder/Brainstorm.

The life. Not that big a deal. The average converted mana cost of the deck is 1.44. Revealing Force and taking 5 sucks, but it's just gonna happen sometimes and you have to work with it. Some brave souls play Bob with Tombstalker in the deck. Yeesh.

Terravore
So I know that the main issue people will take with this list is that there is no Terravore. He's great and all, but I've found that Goyf and Knight do a very good job finishing, particularly with a few pesky hits from Vendilion Clique. There are a few problems with including him. One is that the mana base works right now, but with GG requirements, it might not. The other problem with Terravore is that he's not blue, and there are only 19 blue cards total, meaning you really can't go any lower for Force of Will purposes.

What do people think about making the deck more gung-ho by sending the 2 EE to the sideboard and putting in 2 Terravores? You sacrifice maindeck answers, but you get beef. Just an idea.

Vendilion Clique
Vendilion Clique is really awesome. The disruption it provides at its spot in the mana curve, hopefully following a Stifled fetchland or a wasted dual land, is tight. It also has its place in the nut draw :)

Most commonly, you play it the turn before you drop a Knight to make sure you'll be able to resolve it/keep it around. Combine that with the protection of a Force or a Daze, and you've got yourself an active Knight that's eating their lands and getting huge.

You also have a 3 power beater, which is definitely significant because A) while your opponent is digging for removal to get your Knight/Goyf, they are gonna take 9+ damage since killing the Clique is obviously priority #2 at that point and B) it can often get your opponent down to within an alpha strike while your Knight is growing. If they find answers to both the Clique and the fatty it enabled, they are going to have very little life going into the late game and you will probably crush them with any threat you draw.

Also, the Karakas-Clique soft lock is super annoying and good.

Also, Clique is tight against aggro as removal.

I know Terravore is better in that it deals more damage, but seriously test the Clique. Kyle Boddy had one in his winning list. I think it deserves more stage time.

Please discuss.

[BantFTW]

The confidant is quite good but is he really needed?
You do get alot of cards and that"s a big adventage...
But yeah I'll test the list and they we'll see, I reallly like the idea!

[practical joke]

Have you seen the average cmc you are going to hit?!

I think it's too much of a risk to play it in here, it'll cost you your life once or twice by blind hitting knights + forces+cliques.
I'd say too greedy

and why clique above terravore? terravore is a monster like no other for this deck.

[jrsthethird]

Sounds like you're trying to shove blue in The Rock, to make FOW work. Bad idea.

[Cenarius]

Dark Horizons

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Karakas

SB

2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
4 Krosan Grip
3 Meddling Mage
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt

Interesting post and an interesting list.

I'm playing Black Tempo Threshold for about 3/4 year now, after playing Red Tempo Threshold for over a year. I am splashing black for, 'the God almighty', Dark Confidant. I know how it's THE nuts in tempo decks.
I would advise you to play it a little bit different though. I tested New Horizons aswell and I do not believe that the Engineered Explosives are good enough. I would also advise you to play 22 lands with 3 ponder in mainboard, especially when NOT running Terravore. Ponders are great in early, mid and lategame.

I would say:

-2 Engineered Explosives
-3 Vendillion Clique
-1 Karakas
+3 Spell Pierce
+3 Ponder

This also changes the sideboard. I do not agree with you on your sideboard, aswell.

I'm playing Phyrexian Dreadnought in my sideboard and it's kicking ass. Absolutely THE nuts. You'll need a fast clock against Goblins and Merfolk to win the matchup.
I would play 3 Phyrexian Dreadnought + 1 Trickbind.

It's a lot better than more removal or Llawan, Cephalid Empress. Trust me on that.

I would also advise you to play 1 Crucible of Worlds.
Since you're playing Spell Pierce, you wont be needing Krosan Grip sideboard anymore. I would advise you to play 1/2 maximum, depending on your metagame.

[Moduloc]

I ran the list from the first place starcity games from seatle at the local GPT. I went 3-2.
round one Beat mono black control 2-0
round two lost game one due to a registration error, argghh...won game 2 but lost game three to landstill, I felt like it was a bad matchup anyways.
round three took goblins out for a spanking 2-0
round four played reanimater and lost game one and took games two and three quite easily, he couldnt race my knights. meddling mage naming entomb really slowed him down.
round five lost to dragon stompy, turn two blood moon really hurts with one basic land. game two he had a turn three blood moon followed by the next three turns of magus of the moon, magus of the moon, and another blood moon. I even gripped both moons but could get rid of the magus of the moons, he preceeded to beat me to death with pitdragons. Felt like a terrible matchup. took tenth place and missed the top 8. fun tournamnet overall.

[Derm]

@ Cenarius: Wow, I really like your changes to the main deck.

Clique is good, like I said, but 3 Spell Pierce is better. You don't need UU, you can cut the awkward Karakas, you don't hit 3 on Bob as often, and you have more maindeck hate for combo and other blue-based decks with whom you'll get into counter wars. I'm worried about the lack of damage-dealing creatures without Clique, though. I'll have to test it. Do you think Terravore can/should fit into a list like this?

I think I like the 3 Ponder, too. Good synergy with Goyf since there are no other sorceries in the deck, more blue cards to fuel Force, helps you avoid damage from Bob, and obviously filters your draw. I'm going to test 3 Ponder, but I'm also going to test 2 Ponder plus an additional land. I always thought 23 was the number for New Horizons, and since I'm splashing an extra color, it might be tough for the manabase to sustain. Though Karakas was a partially dead draw most of the time anyway. Maybe adding a Horizon Canopy would be better than the 3rd Ponder.

About the sideboard. I've never tried the Dreadnought plan. I'll have to test it. As far as Krosan Grip is concerned, I would definitely cut 1, but I'm not sure Spell Pierce entirely replaces them. Grip is uncounterable, after all. No Llawan? This deck has no real answers to Progenitus if you can't counter Natural Order, and there are two prominent deck types that play that strategy. Also she hoses Merfolk, which is a pseudo-bad matchup. I have seen people advocate the Crucible of Worlds strategy; what is it exactly? Like when do you bring in Crucible? In what matchups? Lastly, wouldn't it be good to have EE in the sideboard? I was thinking at least 3.

@ practical joke: Yes, I have seen the average casting cost. It's 1.43 with the list I posted, and now it's 1.37 with the changes discussed above. Like I said, hitting 5 on Force is gonna happen, but not that often thanks to Brainstorm and Ponder, and the next highest thing to hit is Knight at 3. It's not that big of a deal, since with an active Bob, you're probably going to with within 4-5 turns.

@ Jrsthethird: I'm not shoving blue into The Rock. 22 out of the 60 cards in this deck are blue. It's a blue-based tempo deck that has, yes, the same creature base as many Rock decks, as well as 4 STP, but I'm just proposing a black splash for Bob in New Horizons. You still play it like New Horizons.

[jazzykat]

So I'm going to ask a very silly question. Do you play 3 Horizon Canopy or 4? Is it reasonable to play a basic island?

[BantFTW]

I would play 3... A basic is needed if you play vore and otherwise it ain't bad either :P

[Cenarius]

About the sideboard. I've never tried the Dreadnought plan. I'll have to test it. As far as Krosan Grip is concerned, I would definitely cut 1, but I'm not sure Spell Pierce entirely replaces them. Grip is uncounterable, after all. No Llawan? This deck has no real answers to Progenitus if you can't counter Natural Order, and there are two prominent deck types that play that strategy. Also she hoses Merfolk, which is a pseudo-bad matchup. I have seen people advocate the Crucible of Worlds strategy; what is it exactly? Like when do you bring in Crucible? In what matchups? Lastly, wouldn't it be good to have EE in the sideboard? I was thinking at least 3.



The dreadnought plan is mainly against:
Merfolk
Goblins

You have no answers to Progenitus, big deal. You have 3 Spell Pierce to counter Natural Order. If you can pressure them, Daze is also an answer. Sword to Plowshare their Noble Hierarch, and you'll win. Atleast, that's my plan often.
If you don't win, you've probably kept a bad hand or your opponent got the nuts. It can happen.

Board Crucible in against control decks and decks that have a Wasteland-lock in them. Also board it in against Eva Green, Pikula etc.

About Krosan Grip. Spell Pierce often helps u against Artifacts and Enchantments. You won't be needing them in Sideboard. Maybe 1 or 2 depending on your metagame. Even if it's full with CB/top.

[Brizentine Empire]

The dreadnought plan is mainly against:
Merfolk
Goblins

You have no answers to Progenitus, big deal. You have 3 Spell Pierce to counter Natural Order. If you can pressure them, Daze is also an answer. Sword to Plowshare their Noble Hierarch, and you'll win. Atleast, that's my plan often.
If you don't win, you've probably kept a bad hand or your opponent got the nuts. It can happen.

Board Crucible in against control decks and decks that have a Wasteland-lock in them. Also board it in against Eva Green, Pikula etc.

About Krosan Grip. Spell Pierce often helps u against Artifacts and Enchantments. You won't be needing them in Sideboard. Maybe 1 or 2 depending on your metagame. Even if it's full with CB/top.

Indeed, Spell Pierce stops many of the same things that Krosan Grip answers, and at 1cc it's very good. However, the card gets progressively worse as the game goes forward, while Grip retains its power throughout. The point is, if your opponent drops a Humility or Moat or w/e, and you don't have Pierce in hand at the time, it's a dead draw, whereas Grip is ALWAYS an answer with its Split Second speed, and can be top-decked for amazingness.

[routlaw]

So I'm going to ask a very silly question. Do you play 3 Horizon Canopy or 4? Is it reasonable to play a basic island?

I think you can play three and one other land of pretty much your choice. I think if you have enough Zoo in your metagame, you should play three, and the spare be a basic island to help you not get totally blown out by Price of Progress. That card is really dangerous because A) they main deck it now , and B) you usually blow your countermagic on stopping their Path to Exile(s) before they play Price of Progress, usually leaving you open to it resolving.


Can I get some advice on my sideboard? My metagame is full of people that play combo and (often non-Zoo) aggro of varying sorts. The control matchup and threshold mirror are much more rare.

3 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Crucile of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

Submerge helps with the blue count and does basically what I want it to do-delay a creature attack for two turns so I can develop my board more without too much additional pressure. It also prevents the other player from getting a land and a free shuffle w/ Path to Exile, can be hard removal in response to a fetchland, is "free", and pitches to Force of Will, something very relevant to this deck that Path doesn't do. It doesn't deal with the creature permanently, but with the whole deck having a endgame plan of board control via massive creatures, it has been good to me. The main downer is that it is completely useless against Merfolk. I just don't know if the non-blue and card disadvantage of Path are worth the tradeoff.

The GY hate is solid and I would not change it. The Crucibles are both your draw engine and alternate win con against control or in the threshold mirror and I won't get rid of them.

The spots I am wondering about are the mages, the reduced number of Grips, and the two Engineered Explosives. I've found EE to be a very strong card against aggro decks-a well placed EE at 1 or 2 is a blowout. It can dodge Counterbalance and hit the enchantment like a champ. It feeds Tarmogoyf to make him even bigger. My big concern is that bringing them both in makes my FOW blue count smaller. I'm tempted to bring in a Rhox War Monk into the board for 1 EE but I've never ever been impressed with playing him in this deck. I'd rather play Kitchen Finks instead (as you always get value out of it and it doesn't get smashed by REB) but it has the same non-blue problem that EE has.

Two grips-am I being too aggressive in cutting grips in a metagame with less control and combo? EE has worked out pretty well for me as enchantment/artifact removal a number of times, while also being a great tool versus aggro. I rarely bring in the grips, but often find good reasons to bring in the extra explosives.

Finally-and here's where I'm really waffling-the choice between Spell Pierce and Meddling Mage. Both are great against combo, both pitch to Force of Will. I've liked both when playing them-the mage gives you another card to bash Ichorid with as well as disrupting storm and other combo variants pretty well. A dedicated control deck easily deals with him, though. Spell Pierce gives you more ways to fight that control deck in the midgame, but is weaker IMO agianst fast combo since then you are starting to have to keep mana open for both Stifle and Spell Pierce, which often means it takes you time to actually get a clock on the board.

Right now I'm preferring Meddling Mage since I'm banking on combo slowing down a bit with MT out of the picture. Does anyone who has tested both have an opinion on which is better?

Thanks in advance for the comments, btw. Sideboarding this deck is really tricky!

Finally on the Dark Confidant builds-what are you trying to accomplish with this deck by adding in another source of card draw? The only time this deck actually needs additional card draw is against attrition strategies or dedicated control builds that answer your threats and countermagic that protects your threads at a 1-for-1 ratio on the back of their card advantage engine.

Against these decks you have a strategy of either winning with a tempo aggro play or resolving crucible and use wasteland and canopy as a way to mana screw your opponent or draw into more threats.

Your matchup with every deck that wins via creatures is made worse with Confidant and w/o Terravore. In the case of Zoo and Merfolk, the premier aggro Legacy decks to beat, it is damaged to the point where you can share drinks and share opinions of Nacatl imbalance with the Merfolk players (who also beat you, btw!). Bant aggro decks can just deal with Knight and get through the rest of your creatures, which they will have much more of than you do.

Maybe I'm wrong, but putting in card draw just for the sake of card draw does not seem like good deck design. There is always an opportunity cost involved, whether it be board development, tempo, or options to successfully interact with the other guy's game plan with sufficient speed. You never really want more than the absolute minimum card advantage required for your deck to win because of this. Sometimes, like in the case of control decks that answer threats on a 1-to-1 ratio, lots of card draw is needed and they allocate slots to it.

Here, all you really want is a little extra boost when your hand is spent and board is fully developed, which is where the canopies come in (and that is also synergistic with Knight and Terravore), and, from the board, Crucible of Worlds for the control matches where you want to grind out a game against massive creature hate.

[Jim Higginbottom]

If submerge isn't permanently getting rid of a creature than you're doing it wrong.

[jrsthethird]

Can I get some advice on my sideboard? My metagame is full of people that play combo and (often non-Zoo) aggro of varying sorts. The control matchup and threshold mirror are much more rare.

3 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
2 Crucile of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives

Here's my current board:

4 Krosan Grip
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog

Submerge vs. Path

First of all, I see a lot of the mirror, and we know that the mirror only runs 1 basic land (I haven't tested an Island but it just seems bad. I can't think of any situation where I would ever want to draw it). Plus, you expect them to grab it early since they don't want to be Waste-locked out (since you obviously bring in Crucible too). This makes Path into a hard removal spell with no downside (free shuffle aside). Submerge is good but it seems like a meta choice. I like that it is pitchable, and creates great tempo advantage (Submerge your Hierarch, Waste your land, yay Time Walk). Seems great in the mirror as well, and can be used as a combat trick in response to a double block. Only problem is that it's useless against Fish and Goblins. I think it comes down to a meta choice but I think the board definitely needs a couple hard removal spots.

Krosan Grip - This card blows open any control matchup, since they generally use artifacts and enchantments to establish their board state (Crucible in the mirror, Ensnaring Bridge or Zuran Orb in Lands, CounterTop, Thopter Foundry, Moat Humility, etc.). Also, decks will frequently run EE against us, since our huge threats are concentrated at 3 mana (Goyf is a weenie). Grip can effectively counter that if they don't play around it. I can't see running any less than 3, but my personal preference is 4 since I see a lot of the mirror, Landstill, and Lands.

Tormod's Crypt - I run 2, since I'm simply not that afraid of the GY. Dredge is a very small part of the metagame and the only deck I feel they're really needed against besides Lands. They help with Reanimator and stuff but we can out-tempo them, sometimes outrace them, and we can also try to win the counter war. I love the singleton Bog and will bring it in in almost any matchup that has an annoying graveyard interaction, but I leave the Crypts out except for dedicated GY decks.

Meddling Mage - Not completely sold on him. He's great in Lands, but I feel we can beat combo with our tempo and counterspells, and outside of those two matchups I don't see any use for him. We already have all the tools necessary to beat Lands so I don't think he's necessary.

Rhox War Monk - This spot is awkward, I think. He's my only blue sideboard card, but I don't think he does enough to warrant a spot. We can beat Zoo without him, but he definitely helps. Maybe I haven't tested him enough.

Another card that definitely should be considered is Dueling Grounds. I've been blown out by Elves twice now in tournaments (it's the same guy in a small metagame two weeks in a row), and this card is just nuts against them, as well as Goblins and maybe Fish. Maybe trading Path and War Monk for Submerge and Dueling Grounds? Gives me something to think about.

As far as what to take out, usually I take out a couple Ponders, Stifles, and maybe EE, Swords, or the basic Forest, depending on the matchup. If I need more spots after that, I look at whether I'm on the play or draw and consider Daze (definitely gets worse on the draw). Also, after looking at the blue count I adjust my number of Forces, sometimes I take them all out. If I side in the Bog I usually remove a land, either the Forest or a fetch.

Anyone have a sideboard plan for Bant Survival? It's awkward, and I don't think I'm doing it right. It seems like everything in the main is good against them, but the stuff in the board is too. The only thing I know for sure is to remove the Forest for Bojuka Bog, so have a tutorable answer to Squee/Emrakul/Wonder.


Finally on the Dark Confidant builds-what are you trying to accomplish with this deck by adding in another source of card draw? The only time this deck actually needs additional card draw is against attrition strategies or dedicated control builds that answer your threats and countermagic that protects your threads at a 1-for-1 ratio on the back of their card advantage engine.

Against these decks you have a strategy of either winning with a tempo aggro play or resolving crucible and use wasteland and canopy as a way to mana screw your opponent or draw into more threats.

Your matchup with every deck that wins via creatures is made worse with Confidant and w/o Terravore. In the case of Zoo and Merfolk, the premier aggro Legacy decks to beat, it is damaged to the point where you can share drinks and share opinions of Nacatl imbalance with the Merfolk players (who also beat you, btw!). Bant aggro decks can just deal with Knight and get through the rest of your creatures, which they will have much more of than you do.

Maybe I'm wrong, but putting in card draw just for the sake of card draw does not seem like good deck design. There is always an opportunity cost involved, whether it be board development, tempo, or options to successfully interact with the other guy's game plan with sufficient speed. You never really want more than the absolute minimum card advantage required for your deck to win because of this. Sometimes, like in the case of control decks that answer threats on a 1-to-1 ratio, lots of card draw is needed and they allocate slots to it.

Here, all you really want is a little extra boost when your hand is spent and board is fully developed, which is where the canopies come in (and that is also synergistic with Knight and Terravore), and, from the board, Crucible of Worlds for the control matches where you want to grind out a game against massive creature hate.

Thank you, you said what I was thinking but didn't have the words to say.

If you want to use Dark Confidant with this creature suite, cut the blue. Run a rock variant instead of trying to make a tempo deck. For example:

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore

2 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares

All I did was do a 1-for-1 swap of blue cards from NH and replaced them with cards that are functionally similar in Rock colors. Discard for counters, Deed for EE, Sinkhole for Stifle, Bob for Brainstorm, and Vindicate is just the shit. I don't know how well it would work but it will definitely be better than NH with splash for Bob.

[Maveric78f]

Since when a deck that starts playing on his turn 3 is called "tempo"? Just because it has stifle, wasteland and Daze (which is an aberration) ?

[Hanni]

Since when a deck that starts playing on his turn 3 is called "tempo"? Just because it has stifle, wasteland and Daze (which is an aberration) ?

How does this deck start playing on turn 3? Because of Knight of the Reliquary? It's still a tempo deck that has alot of interactions before turn 3.

Also, I don't agree with Terravore at all, and I think Noble Hierarch should most certainly be in the deck, but that's besides the point.

And yes, Stifle/Wasteland/Daze are what make it a tempo deck, just like Canadian Threshold. The deck disrupts the opponent's mana production to gain a tempo advantage in the early game, drops a Knight of the Reliquary, and rides that to victory before the opponent can stabilize. This deck is much less aggressive as a tempo deck than Canadian Thresh, with Swords instead of burn, and a 3cc threat instead of a 1cc threat, but they still follow similar principles.

However, I do agree with you that this deck isn't getting as much out of the tempo gameplan as it could be. This is what I'd do, personally:

Lands (20)
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland

Creatures (13)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

...but that's just my take on it.

Sideboard would include 3-4 Engineered Explosives and 1 Academy Ruins.

[Jak]

Since when a deck that starts playing on his turn 3 is called "tempo"? Just because it has stifle, wasteland and Daze (which is an aberration) ?

You should look tempo up.

[mchainmail]

when would you want to play noble hierarch turn 1, when you have both stifle and spell pierce to hold mana up for?

[Hanni]

when would you want to play noble hierarch turn 1, when you have both stifle and spell pierce to hold mana up for?


When would you want to play Tarmogoyf on turn 2, when you have both Stifle and Spell Pierce to hold mana up for?

[RexFTW]

when would you want to play noble hierarch turn 1, when you have both stifle and spell pierce to hold mana up for?

When you have force of will, to hold mana up for? or when you have natural order to play on turn 3 :P

[Derm]

@ routlaw: Dark Confidant is not card draw for card draw's sake. The idea to include him is an attempt to capitalize on this deck's tempo plays. Like I said in my original post, this deck doesn't really have a turn 2 play. Ideally, you're Stifling your opponent's fetchland or Spell Piercing something. What do you follow that up with? Turn one Stifle, turn two Dark Confidant isn't meaningless card draw---it's a tempo disruption play followed by a card advantage engine that will bury your opponent.

Here are your possible plays in the first two turns:

Turn 1: Stifle; Spell Pierce; Brainstorm; Ponder

Turn 2: Hold mana up for a Stifle, Spell Pierce, or a hard-casted Daze; Tarmogoyf; Ponder; Brainstorm + fetchland

Of those possible sequences, I think Brainstorm + fetchland is probably the best, but none of them break the game open. Goyf is going to be a 2/3 at that point and doesn't represent significant pressure.

Playing a Dark Confidant after a Stifled fetchland puts your opponent on the ropes instantly. It'll deal 4-6 damage as an attacker, which is not insignificant when you're following it up with Goyf's and Knights and Terravores, and it will draw you at least 2 cards. If they deal with it, they have to use a whole turn to do so as well as a removal spell, and if they don't you're going to draw enough cards to destroy them.

This is assuming an ideal first and second turn play, which of course doesn't happen every game, but hands with a turn 2 Bob are good in pretty much any matchup, even Zoo and Merfolk. Using him as a blocker isn't ideal, but it works against Zoo in a pinch, and then you can sideboard him out.

On the subject of drawing cards: your argument about this deck not needing extra cards and about trimming down to the minimum amount of card advantage that you need doesn't make much sense to me. Since when has it been a good idea to minimize card advantage in deck design? Currently the deck has 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder, which doesn't seem like minimalism to me; it seems like filler past a 6 count, especially since they're just cantrips.

Just because this deck will probably have enough cards to make a number of solid early plays doesn't mean you're going to have the nuts every game. If you Stifle a fetch, cast a few cantrips, and drop a Knight or something in the early game, and then your opponent deals with it and recovers, you've probably only got 2 or 3 cards in hand and you might be out of threats. Bob makes it so that you draw into additional threats, answers, and disruption, and he improves a shaky hand quite quickly.

Sure you can win games without these extra cards, but snagging an extra STP, Daze, or Knight can be the difference between a close game and a solid victory. If you draw a steady stream of countermagic, you can drop a threat and lock your opponent out of the game entirely, and that's much easier to do when you're drawing 2 a turn. Your argument that Horizon Canopy is a fine source of card advantage simply doesn't hold up. There is a world of difference between a Brainstorm, Ponder, or a popped Canopy and a recurring source of extra cards that forces your opponents to answer it or lose.

This is my current list, and it's been working very well. I did add Terravore. He's good.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Terravore
4 Dark Confidant

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder/Brainstorm -- I'm still working out which is better for this deck.

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland

SB:

1 Bojuka Bog
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds

Thank you for the comments, routlaw; this is actually a good discussion. Your points about NH's pseudo-bad matchups with Zoo and Merfolk are very important considering the current metagame. My sideboard definitely reflects this.

I'm not trying to be overly argumentative with people who don't like the Dark Confidant idea, but some of the posts have been sort of dismissive and lacking in substantive content. I don't appreciate people telling me to just run The Rock. 1/3 of my deck is blue. I'm not looking for a new deck; I'm looking at a possible change to a deck I already like.

Side note: has anyone played/tested the mirror match? So annoying and not very fun.

[aznepyon7]

@Derm

Although I agree that Dark Confidant is a beast, I have quite a few problems with him.

First is the mana base. You mentioned that Nassif ran 4 colors as well. That is true. But I want to point out that he wasn't running 4 Wasteland. Nassif never had a strong mana base and with the Wastelands you are packing, I am reluctant to say its stable enough.

Second is the restriction on the blue count. I'm not particularly happy at the razor thin margin that NH teeters itself on for a consistent FoW. It's even worse after sideboard. Against many decks I already have to consider siding out FoW.

You state that your decklist is doing well against Zoo. But I think you should address some of these concerns to make your deck more valid:

1. Dark Confidants are still 2/1 are can easily be removed by any of Zoo's 14-16 removal spells. True it costs them a removal spell but it cost you your turn 2 play unless you Daze/FoW it which is costly seeing how they can easily do it again vs a fat KoR or Goyf.

2. Many Zoo are maindecking PoP. Life loss by itself from Dark Confidant isn't too much of a problem but in conjunction with a PoP instead of a Chain Lightning spells a world of hurt.

3. I don't like not including EE. EE has been awesome in so many matchups that I'd much rather have this than extra spell pierces. An EE can take care of 2+ cards at a time and in essence, is like a Confidant in card advantage. Not having the EE and the Ponder (depending on your build) also hurts your goyfs. It's not like the opponent won't be playing sorceries or artifacts either but at least you can control what's in your GY.

[flyboyeze]

Has anyone tried to merge phyrexian dreadnought into the New Horizons deck? I have been playtesting this idea for about a week now and i have had much success. Here's what my decklist looks like. Also if anyone has sideboard suggestions that reflect the shifting metagame now that ANT and Reanimate are no longer top contenders, please hit me up.

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner (running 1 main and 1 side due to the increase in aggro decks like zoo now that ANT and Reanimate are gone)
4x Standstill
4x Ponder

4x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
1x Windswept Heath
1x Sejiri Steppe (i know i know, but its actually worked for me in longer battles against merfolk)
1x Treetop Village
1x Forest
3x Horizon Canopy
2x Tundra
2x Tropical Island
1x Savannah
4x Wasteland
1x Island

1x Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Spell Pierce
3x Krosan Grip
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Rhox War Monk

[Brizentine Empire]

I feel like Dreadnought would be a better card if Reanimator and ANT WERE still big in the format, as it gives you a much faster clock to deal with these decks. However, Dreadnought is extremely iffy in my opinion, as he is SOOO vulnerable to removal in every way. Dreadstill used to be a teir 1 deck, but after Krosan Grip and Qasali Pridemage were printed, the deck nearly disappeared because of it's inability to keep the 12/12 on the table. NH has even less protection than Dreadstill does (less blue cards for FoW, no Standstill for card advantage, etc.) and I feel like he would eat otherwise dead removal in alot of matchups.

But that's just my opinion.

[flyboyeze]

I only run 2 in place of teravore so do u still think its a bad card by comparison since you can drop him turn 2? and swing for 12 turn 3?

[practical joke]

It's a real tempo-deck, I don't think I'm even considering dropping that thing on T2 and demand a blow-out with my opponent

[jandax]

At the start of the game it's way easier to get the Naught exiled or otherwise destroyed than later as sources of removal have been used up. Perhaps it should be best played as something to help get you there when there's a goyf/KOTR wall on the board. Hell, by this time you could even sac a KotR to replace the 12 P/T trigger if you don't stifle it. At least the naught has trample

[Hanni]

At the start of the game it's way easier to get the Naught exiled or otherwise destroyed than later as sources of removal have been used up. Perhaps it should be best played as something to help get you there when there's a goyf/KOTR wall on the board. Hell, by this time you could even sac a KotR to replace the 12 P/T trigger if you don't stifle it. At least the naught has trample

At that point, Terravore > Dreadnought, no?

[jandax]

I'd like to think so. Outside of Landstill, using your stifles on your side of the board doesn't seem like the best move

[flyboyeze]

well i like the way it leaves me with a quick game winner vs decks like zoo which are running rampant, against mirror, bant, and blue lands i usually bust it out later in the game if at all, it also gives you a secondary use for academy ruins and lets u get rid of redundant useless late game stifles that no longer effectively remove lands or triggers. Late game i find stifle to be a dead card which is the reason i concocted this idea, but if yall are opposed to it i cant take that away from you just that terravore can just as easily be removed from the game and never grows to be bigger than mb a 8/8 in fast matches. I find Dreadnought to put a clock on opponents that could've easily dealt with a later played teravore.

[Grillo]

I don't want to flame but I'm a Zoo player and I fear Terravores more than Dreadnoughts. Specially if you run only two. With 4 Path to Exile and 4 Qasali Pridemage maindeck, I haven't had much problems.

[Dark Ritual]

Any new horizons pilot who boards into dreadnought against zoo is a terrible player. Its good in the merfolk and goblins matchups as well as combo MUs for providing the 2 turn clock. And it really hurts dredge, being able to simply exile all their bridges or providing a very quick clock against them that puts a lot of pressure on them.

In the new meta I would keep nought in the SB, playing it MD can really hurt you in some matchups you are likely to face now that the meta is going to shift a lot. Even then, it comes down to what you're cutting in your SB to include 3 noughts plus one trickbind to reliably cast him and whether or not he's better than the cards you replaced to include him. Depending on what decks are played most though he could be an absolute bomb or quite terrible if everyone and their cousin decide to pick up zoo.

[flyboyeze]

so what are everyones thoughts on stifle nought style decks, those deck suck now bc they run a turn 2 dreadnought win con, yall are narrowminded, im not trying to redefine the deck and im not sayin its infallible and the best creature ever, im just saying that since the deck already runs stifles mainboard and i often times face off against merfolk and zoo where these cards are dead, i replaced the terravores with dreadnought to provide more flexibility to my creatures, if an opponent exiles your graveyard, which is what a "great player" would do post game 1 against new horizons, then if i ran teravore i would lose bc id play a 0/0 creature...now if someone sides in krosan grip to SOLELY take out my dreadnoughts, which im taking is the other argument, they will be very upset that i only run 2 and that the core of the deck is still New Horizons. Im gettin the general consensus from the room that this idea is newb and it blows so w/e just thought i'd try and bring an innovative idea with a tag team idea, IE Stifle Nought decks, and try and new direction for new horizons. And Thx Dark Ritual for calling me a "terrible new horizons player" ur a douce, and narrow minded

[chokin]

*cough* Isn't there a portion of a rule that covers capitalization and stuff? *cough*

@flyboyeze - It sounds to me like you have an issue with people running Relic over Crypt. Not all decks do though because they run their own Goyfs. I think that something you need to consider is that Zoo is pretty damn popular, so Qasali Pridemage is a maindecked cheap way to deal with your Dreadnought. Stifle-Nought is just a weaker strategy than it used to be, kind of like Blood Moon (still ok, but it isn't as back breaking or game ending as it once was).

If your meta is NOT infested with Zoo but has a lot of Relic of Progenitus, I say go for it. My local area (Tucson up until this year) used to be full of random jank so I had to tweak my decks accordingly. This meant running sub-par cards to deal with a tournament with decks I would be facing. It's gotten a ton better since then, so now I'm able to run normal lists.

Another card you may want to consider though is Vendillion Clique. That card is awesome. And it's not dependent on having Stifle in your hand.

[kniff]

I think a zoo player going against new horizons would most likely try to throw his path at an early creature just to limit blockers and to get the 20 damage through before new horizons can take over. dreadnaught would be brutal punishment for a zoo player playing this way. Even game 2 if you know that they have a possible dreadnaught, if you save removal for dreadnaught rather than a goyf or knight, it may or may not come and could cost the zoo player control of the game. I don't see it being so terrible at all. Pridemage is the of course the way through, but force of will and daze do exist, and can put pressure on their pridemages. Sideboarding for dreadnaught is suicide. I want to playtest this strategy a lot honestly.

[jrsthethird]

so what are everyones thoughts on stifle nought style decks, those deck suck now bc they run a turn 2 dreadnought win con, yall are narrowminded, im not trying to redefine the deck and im not sayin its infallible and the best creature ever, im just saying that since the deck already runs stifles mainboard and i often times face off against merfolk and zoo where these cards are dead, i replaced the terravores with dreadnought to provide more flexibility to my creatures, if an opponent exiles your graveyard, which is what a "great player" would do post game 1 against new horizons, then if i ran teravore i would lose bc id play a 0/0 creature...now if someone sides in krosan grip to SOLELY take out my dreadnoughts, which im taking is the other argument, they will be very upset that i only run 2 and that the core of the deck is still New Horizons. Im gettin the general consensus from the room that this idea is newb and it blows so w/e just thought i'd try and bring an innovative idea with a tag team idea, IE Stifle Nought decks, and try and new direction for new horizons. And Thx Dark Ritual for calling me a "terrible new horizons player" ur a douce, and narrow minded

Why aren't you content with taking out Stifles for RWMs and EEs against Zoo? If Zoo is such a problem add Path or Submerge too.

Against Fish, Stifle is a little more useful, depending on the build. You can Stifle Kira triggers and Silvergill, as well as Relic when they board it in. Not the most useful card, but it certainly isn't 'dead'.

If you're going to board in Noughts I wouldn't take out Vores. Take out FOW in those matchups, and maybe Daze or Ponder, depending on what else is coming in.

[Hanni]

I wouldn't cut Stifles against Zoo. They have a very vulnerable manabase, and Stifle/Wasteland can severly cripple it. This can very often generate enough tempo to steamroll them before they can recover. I'm sure I play this matchup much differently than most people, though.

[routlaw]

Zoo players LOVE to run out a turn 2 fetchland right into a Stifle, thanks to the popularity of the turn 1 Steppe Lynx play.

In my experience playing NH, one stifle and one waste against a Zoo player is almost always a total blowout. Post board you get whatever combination of Monks/Paths/EE and board out your forces, since your blue count is possibly wrecked, the card disadvantage really hurts in this matchup, and the worst thing they can do to you is Price of Progress, which will only end the game if you don't play around it (basic forest, trop, tundra FTW).

Least that's how I play it. Been pretty successful locally against Zoo with NH.

[jandax]

Thing is it won't always be present in the opening of a game. As a zoo player, I'll definitely take the chance of a t2 stifle'd Fetchland if it means i can get in two or three extra damage for the turn, save a few situations obviously. And playing around wasteland in the first three turns is critical against NH. I've only faced the deck twice and both matches went 2-1 thanks to fast cats and PoP. Cool play tip: Daze a PoP even if they can pay the extra 1, save yourself 2 or more damage.

[Ch@os]

. Cool play tip: Daze a PoP even if they can pay the extra 1, save yourself 2 or more damage.
http://cruddy.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/protip.jpg

[jandax]

sorry, forgot to [/sarcasm]

[Dark Ritual]

Yeah and if you can't daze a PoP but you have an untapped wasteland, MAYBE waste one of your own lands to reduce the damage by 4. And definitely sack any horizon canopy's you have that are untapped. Personally I think the zoo MU is about even with this deck.

[Dzra]

Why wouldn't you run 2 Condemn in the SB over 2 PtE? Against Zoo or the mirror it seems like the catch of only being able to nuke an attacking creature is much preferable to giving them a basic. Especially Zoo.

[Purgatory]

I wouldn't cut Stifles against Zoo. They have a very vulnerable manabase, and Stifle/Wasteland can severly cripple it. This can very often generate enough tempo to steamroll them before they can recover. I'm sure I play this matchup much differently than most people, though.

+1. I don't have much experience with NH vs. Zoo, but on the contrary, I've played quite a lot of Tempo Thresh vs. Zoo, and I've found Stifle/Wasteland to be of utmost importance in winning that match-up. Considering that NH runs fewer counterspells and less removal than TT,along with creatures that can be Path'd, I'd say that the same is true here.

Winning the die roll and opening a hand with Stifle and Wasteland against Zoo is just disgusting, and usually gg right there, unless they actually draw any of their basic lands.

[jandax]

+1. I don't have much experience with NH vs. Zoo, but on the contrary, I've played quite a lot of Tempo Thresh vs. Zoo, and I've found Stifle/Wasteland to be of utmost importance in winning that match-up. Considering that NH runs fewer counterspells and less removal than TT,along with creatures that can be Path'd, I'd say that the same is true here.

Winning the die roll and opening a hand with Stifle and Wasteland against Zoo is just disgusting, and usually gg right there, unless they actually draw any of their basic lands.

Or get the read and fetch basics. It is generally better to lead with U open for stifle than turn one wasteland right?

[keys]

Experienced Zoo players know not to crack fetchlands until the tempo player is tapped out. And if they play around Daze, that's 8 dead cards. At least that's how I always played against Canadian Thresh and I never died to LD. Sometimes I would wait until I had 5+ lands in play before I even played a spell. Tempo doesn't have enough steam to punish the Zoo player for slow play, but it doesn't want to go to the late game and start trading threat for threat-- that's a losing position.

If you sense the Zoo player knows this, I would sub out the Dazes/Stifles for removal, and let him play around nonexistent cards.

[aznepyon7]

Experienced Zoo players know not to crack fetchlands until the tempo player is tapped out. And if they play around Daze, that's 8 dead cards. At least that's how I always played against Canadian Thresh and I never died to LD. Sometimes I would wait until I had 5+ lands in play before I even played a spell. Tempo doesn't have enough steam to punish the Zoo player for slow play, but it doesn't want to go to the late game and start trading threat for threat-- that's a losing position.

If you sense the Zoo player knows this, I would sub out the Dazes/Stifles for removal, and let him play around nonexistent cards.

TT may not have enough steam to punish a Zoo player but is this the same for NH? NH can set out much larger creatures and EE if Zoo decides to sit around. One thing I've found out about NH is that it's pretty slow and giving NH time to make a large KoR/Vore just doesn't seem to be a good idea.


Anyway I also want to keep the Dreadnought discussion going. It seems like an interesting idea. Someone spoke of using 1 Dreadnought earlier before the last guy who wanted to sub in the Vores for 2 Dreadnoughts. Though I am reluctant to side out the Vores (these guys are pretty sexy), I feel that late game Dreadnoughts after Stifles are no longer as strong and PtE/STP are used up seems like a pretty decent play.

[jrsthethird]

Why wouldn't you run 2 Condemn in the SB over 2 PtE? Against Zoo or the mirror it seems like the catch of only being able to nuke an attacking creature is much preferable to giving them a basic. Especially Zoo.

Interesting, haven't even considered that.

[Cenarius]

TT may not have enough steam to punish a Zoo player but is this the same for NH? NH can set out much larger +creatures and EE if Zoo decides to sit around. One thing I've found out about NH is that it's pretty slow and giving NH time to make a large KoR/Vore just doesn't seem to be a good idea.

Anyway I also want to keep the Dreadnought discussion going. It seems like an interesting idea. Someone spoke of using 1 Dreadnought earlier before the last guy who wanted to sub in the Vores for 2 Dreadnoughts. Though I am reluctant to side out the Vores (these guys are pretty sex+y), I feel that late game Dreadnoughts after Stifles are no longer as strong and PtE/STP are used up seems like a pretty decent play.

I guess I started the Dreadnought discussion. I don't get why people think, that boarding in Dreadnought against Zoo is a good idea. It's not. Don't try it.
Dreadnought helps you against the agro matchups. Decks that do not play Qasali Pridemage, nor Swords to Plowshares.

I also don't get why people think that Zoo is 50/50. Keep em of green and you'll win. Stifle, Wasteland and Knight of the Reliquary will help. Spell Pierce protects your creatures and you creature's are much larger than theirs.
Force of Will their turn 1 Nacactl and they can't put pressure on you.

[aznepyon7]

I guess I started the Dreadnought discussion. I don't get why people think, that boarding in Dreadnought against Zoo is a good idea. It's not. Don't try it.
Dreadnought helps you against the agro matchups. Decks that do not play Qasali Pridemage, nor Swords to Plowshares.

I also don't get why people think that Zoo is 50/50. Keep em of green and you'll win. Stifle, Wasteland and Knight of the Reliquary will help. Spell Pierce protects your creatures and you creature's are much larger than theirs.
Force of Will their turn 1 Nacactl and they can't put pressure on you.

I reread my post and I think I used a poor choice of words - when I said side out, I meant the original decklist, not during the 2nd, 3rd game. Dreadnought against Zoo isn't as good as Vore but I like it against Goblins and Merfolk.

People think Zoo is 50/50 because of PoP. However it really isn't too hard to play around and when you know how to deal with it, it's not a problem.

I like using Fire Spouts anyway to remove 2 creatures. It's pretty awesome IMO.

[Dzra]

I like using Fire Spouts anyway to remove 2 creatures. It's pretty awesome IMO.

Would you run Firespout over EE? EE might be slower sometimes, but it's more flexible and more consistent (doesn't require a Taiga).

I also don't like 4 Horizon Canopy. The extra pain seems unnecessary. I'd rather play Flooded Strand and maybe another basic or two to protect against PoP and opposing Wastelock. (Even Zoo runs 1 of each basic to protect against the mirror.)

[routlaw]

An issue I have with Condemn is that, while strong against Zoo, it's weaker in other matchups.

Against Merfolk, Lord of Atlantis is what you want gone. He likely will not be attacking since he doesn't give himself islandwalk.
In the mirror, a big play is untapping with Knight of the Reliquary first so you can cut the other guy off a color with a fetched Wasteland.
Against Bant, you can't tag a Noble Hierarch. This is particularly relevant against Probant builds.

Not to mention that in general it can't be used to deal with things like deathtouch blockers (Nighthawk, Stinkweed Imp) and all sorts of similar corner cases as well as the timing issue of ensuring W is open when they attack with the creature you want to exile. I like the card a lot, but I feel that it's just a tad bit too narrow. Path does have a drawback but it's application is absolute.

I'm totally down with cutting a couple of Horizon Canopies for basics provided that I can keep the GG needed for Terravore reliable. I love the deck's design but I absolutely despise its mana base. There's some other issues with it as well, namely that a lot of times you want to eat your regular dual lands to get Wasteland with Knight to nail down the color screw. You can't chuck a Canopy to that, and it's almost always the land you would most like to toss to Knight.

[Dzra]

Against Merfolk, Lord of Atlantis is what you want gone. He likely will not be attacking since he doesn't give himself islandwalk.

I'll agree with you here that Condemn is much weaker against Merfolk than PtE. We do have quite a few tools against Merfolk anyways though. We have bigger creatures, MD Swords, EE (either MD, SB, or both), and the same (if not better) counter package. Not to mention an active KotR and Stifles MD help mitigate their Wasteland disruption.


In the mirror, a big play is untapping with Knight of the Reliquary first so you can cut the other guy off a color with a fetched Wasteland.
Against Bant, you can't tag a Noble Hierarch. This is particularly relevant against Probant builds.

I'm not too familiar with Probant, but if your goal in killing the Noble Hiearch is to keep them off their mana then isn't PtE already a wash?


Not to mention that in general it can't be used to deal with things like deathtouch blockers (Nighthawk, Stinkweed Imp) and all sorts of similar corner cases as well as the timing issue of ensuring W is open when they attack with the creature you want to exile. I like the card a lot, but I feel that it's just a tad bit too narrow. Path does have a drawback but it's application is absolute.

I'll definitely agree to this. As a SB card, PtE has much wider application, especially against rogue decks and decks with underplayed tricks. I think though, with Zoo fast becoming a giant meta-eating monster, Condemn is a strong choice. My biggest concern right now would be Vexing Shusher (but since we're most likely boarding FoW anyways, it might be a non-issue).


I'm totally down with cutting a couple of Horizon Canopies for basics provided that I can keep the GG needed for Terravore reliable. I love the deck's design but I absolutely despise its mana base. There's some other issues with it as well, namely that a lot of times you want to eat your regular dual lands to get Wasteland with Knight to nail down the color screw. You can't chuck a Canopy to that, and it's almost always the land you would most like to toss to Knight.

Here, here! I think Zoo's manabase is on the right track, maximizing fetchlands for KotR (we have Terravore as well) and one of each basic to protect against PoP and Wasteland. We have Brainstorm and Ponder already with deckthining via fetches and KotRs. With aggro becoming more prominent post-Mystical Tutor, Horizon Canopy doesn't feel like a solid investment in lifepoints.

[routlaw]

I'm not too familiar with Probant, but if your goal in killing the Noble Hiearch is to keep them off their mana then isn't PtE already a wash?


With or without Hierarch, they get their mana. However, Hierarch >>>> basic land, and the little 0/1 has a uncanny way of becoming a silly 10/10 Hydra.

Then again, it's probably very much a corner case-you won't bring in Path against Counterbalance Bant, so the only Bant builds you'll really bring in Path are a Bant Aggro/UGw Tempo sort of build. Far better to bring in other cards for the NO Counterbalance matchup (one of the more difficult matchups to sideboard against , in my experience).

[aznepyon7]

Would you run Firespout over EE? EE might be slower sometimes, but it's more flexible and more consistent (doesn't require a Taiga).

I also don't like 4 Horizon Canopy. The extra pain seems unnecessary. I'd rather play Flooded Strand and maybe another basic or two to protect against PoP and opposing Wastelock. (Even Zoo runs 1 of each basic to protect against the mirror.)

Definitely not. EE are awesome but the Firespout gives you a way to deal with things that costs 2 or 3 mana and less than 3 toughness. Dark Confidants, few merfolks, and others. EE at one is very strong against cat Zoo and still very strong against the Zoo variant without lynx.

I just like more removal rather than counter power in my games with Zoo.

[BantFTW]

I'm not really a zoo player, but isn't 'wing shards' a very good card if you can get double white :O?
Like if he attacks with three creatures, you bolt one and wind shards the two others?
Quite good if you ask m but maybe the double white is a littlebit hard?

[aznepyon7]

I'm not really a zoo player, but isn't 'wing shards' a very good card if you can get double white :O?
Like if he attacks with three creatures, you bolt one and wind shards the two others?
Quite good if you ask m but maybe the double white is a littlebit hard?


I'm a bit confused at this post. How do you bolt one? Wing Shards is also expensive and playing another spell + this is a bit too expensive. Maybe if the Zoo player played a spell earlier that turn, this would seem more reasonable but usually most ppl play cards in the phase after combat.

And yes double white isn't easy to achieve.

[jrsthethird]

I'm a bit confused at this post. How do you bolt one? Wing Shards is also expensive and playing another spell + this is a bit too expensive. Maybe if the Zoo player played a spell earlier that turn, this would seem more reasonable but usually most ppl play cards in the phase after combat.

And yes double white isn't easy to achieve.

I'm assuming he means playing Zoo against us, Wing Shards is a good card. But,

1. Zoo getting 4 mana against mana denial. (They could float the mana from 2 lands and Fireblast, leaving them with 1 land...lol)
2. Bolt will rarely kill one of our creatures, better to shoot it at the face.
3. WW is hard to get in normal MUs, much less against us.

Zoo just needs to race us before our guys can get big enough to block, and then throw a couple burns spells at our face. Anything more means you're trying too hard.

[jimirynk]

With Dave Price's 75 how do you board against the mirror?

Sb is;
4 crypt
4 kgrip
2 e.e
2 rwm
1 loam
2 crucible

[Dzra]

I could be wrong, but I wouldn't think that that is the optimal SB if you expect to see too much of the mirror. I'd include 2 PtE (or Condemn as I prefer).

[jrsthethird]

With Dave Price's 75 how do you board against the mirror?

Sb is;
4 crypt
4 kgrip
2 e.e
2 rwm
1 loam
2 crucible

With that board, what I would do is:

+1 Loam
+2 Crucible
+2 Grip
+2 Crypt

on the play:
-3 Ponder
-4 FOW

on the draw:
-3 Ponder
-4 combination of Daze and FOW

I really think you need a Bojuka Bog, if that's the case I would just board in the Bog for a fetchland (or a Ponder if you don't like boarding out lands) and forget the Crypts.

Ponder is probably the weakest card in the deck, and removing it means we cut the blue card count, making FOW worse. Daze is much better on the play so you should leave it in on the play, no question. On the draw, FOW becomes a little better but still not very good here. Usually, during sideboarding for any matchup, I remove some combination of Ponder, FOW, Daze, and Stifle, depending on whether I'm on the draw or not. Obviously Stifle is awesome in the mirror so it comes down to the other 3.

If you have more spot removal in the board I would swap out EE's for them, EE is not too good because:
- They run Stifle
- It costs 5 mana (usually) to kill a threat against a mana-denial deck (vs. 1 for Path)
- It doesn't break stalemates, it just resets the board.

Only benefit is that EE will take out their Crucible, which you absolutely need in the mirror to outdraw them by recycling Canopies. Grip is in to take out their Crucibles as well as EE's, Crypts, or Relics that are idling on the board.

I don't like the Loam, but it gets you more lands in the mirror and seems like it would be good. Worm Harvest is nuts in the mirror, but I don't know what other matchups to use it in. Any input on Worm Harvest would be appreciated.

If you're expecting the mirror, I would run:

4 Grip
2 Crypt
2 Path
2 EE
2 Crucible
2 RWM
1 Bog

This is my current board, except I have 2 Dueling Grounds instead of the Paths.

[Woe]

I've been testing with New Horizons a couple of weeks now and I have sideboard questions for the more seasoned players. My sideboard is as follows:

2 Rhox War Monk
2 Path to Exile
1 Engineered Explosives ( I run 3x main deck)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Bajuka Bog
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Llawon, Cephalid Empress

I am preparing for a tournament this Sunday. I expect the meta to be heavy with aggro in the form of Zoo and Merfolk. I imagine there will be everything in moderation but those two being a large percentage of the field.

Current Questionable Slots:
Krosan Grip: I feel two Krosan Grips may not be enough. I am debating cutting the fourth E.E. for a third Grip. In testing I generally only need to resolve one to win against CBT considering the amount of E.E.'s I run. I also run three pithing needles which helps out in most of the matches where I board in Krosan Grip. I feel the main job that I need Krosan Grip to do is deal with Moat and CoW. Possibly Null Rod turning off my E.E.'s

Bajuka Bog: I feel it necessary as a 4th mana for E.E. as well as graveyard hate. What I am unsure about is only running two cards to clear yards. I think the main sixty are well equipped for Ichorid. I've played the match about twenty times in testing and short of them resolving two or more relevant therapies it was a positive match up. While you can wasteland your own Bajuka Bog to reset it with crucible, it won't be at instant speed which is usually necessary.

Llawon, Cephalid Empress: A one of to help against what I feel is a mediocre match up in merfolk. If I table her and pithing needle calling Aether vial I feel like I've won. After a testing session last week I only felt cold to a couple of cards post board. Those were Progenitus and Emrakul. I added Karakas main deck and Llawon to the board. As a four drop she sneaks past counterbalance pretty easily, but you have to draw her. So I am not sold on even having her in the board as a one of.

After reading this entire thread I feel strongly that the rest of my board is solid. I imagine if it changes I will cut Llawon, E.E., and a Bog for a Krosan Grip and two Tormod's Crypts.

Feel free to criticize, that's why I posted it. Thanks.

[jrsthethird]

There are times I've already played out my Bog and still had an active Knight on the board and wished I could tutor it again, so running two might not be a bad idea. I personally don't feel like there's any room for another one in my board, and also (besides the misfortune of drawing into the Bog and not being able to shuffle it back with Brainstorm), I may have jumped the gun and tutored it too early. Not sure, time will tell.

I think at least 3 Grips is mandatory. There's nothing worse than losing to an artifact or enchantment like Moat, Humility, CB, Crucible and not finding your Grip/EE.

Llawan is a metagame choice, I'm trying out Dueling Grounds in the board as Merfolk tech since it basically allows you to race them when they get a very aggressive start, but isn't a dead spot in other MUs.

Path could easily be Submerge, Condemn, or Dueling Grounds, entirely depends on metagame and playstyle.

Path: mirror-heavy metagame, very bad in the early game, bad in general against mono- or 2-colored decks
Dueling Grounds: tribal-heavy (Elves, Fish, Goblins, even boardable against Thopter combo to let you race infinite Thopters/stall for answers)
Submerge: Bant/Zoo heavy metas, very bad against non-green decks
Condemn: maybe better in an unknown meta? It's the weakest choice IMO, it does it's job worse than everything else here, but since it's a mediocre Swords in every matchup, it doesn't have very many bad situations.

[Tammit67]

I think at least 3 Grips is mandatory. There's nothing worse than losing to an artifact or enchantment like Moat, Humility, CB, Crucible and not finding your Grip/EE.

Grips are still amazing. 3 seems to be a decent number. When you need them, you really need them.


Dueling Grounds: tribal-heavy (Elves, Fish, Goblins, even boardable against Thopter combo to let you race infinite Thopters/stall for answers)


Not sold on dueling grounds. LoA is still mean to you, rejerrey still shuts down would be blockers. Goblins has stinscourger, elves is pretty much screwed? Thopters with enough mana, especially post board, dont care so much about DG. Terravore is the only threat they really care about, and they have several must answer cards against New Horizons.

[jrsthethird]

There's also Ghostly Prison, which has a similar function, and seems better against Thopters since if you want to swing, you have to severely stall your Thopter ramp. It's probably better, I just forgot about it.

[menace13]

Why not just Needle things in that mu. Jace,Tops,Thopter?

[Tammit67]

There's also Ghostly Prison, which has a similar function, and seems better against Thopters since if you want to swing, you have to severely stall your Thopter ramp. It's probably better, I just forgot about it.
It slows the actual killing you part down, but A control deck like that isn't in a rush anyway. Once they have position it's hard to break and still have enough resources to win. O Ring might come in against New Horizons, and that certainly hurts answers you might have. It's an interesting match.

Why not just Needle things in that mu. Jace,Tops,Thopter?
How many needles do you plan to bring in? There are a lot of targets.

[menace13]

It slows the actual killing you part down, but A control deck like that isn't in a rush anyway. Once they have position it's hard to break and still have enough resources to win. O Ring might come in against New Horizons, and that certainly hurts answers you might have. It's an interesting match.

How many needles do you plan to bring in? There are a lot of targets.

There could be 3 Needles in the board for not only the things that Grip or EE can hit like equipment, Vial, and creatures(Needle is faster here), but also shutting down Planeswalkers,Deed and Maze of Ith. They are just really good tools to implement taking one mana to deploy not detrimental to the tempo plan and they preemptively halt activations like slow rolling Relics. Never dead in any matchup, maybe Mirrors.

[say no to scurvy]

I lost to 2 bant countertops in a row today, can someone tell me how to board? I usually board in something like 2 grips 2 crucibles 2 submerge, but I'm not sure if this is correct and what I should board out.

[Tammit67]

There could be 3 Needles in the board for not only the things that Grip or EE can hit like equipment, Vial, and creatures(Needle is faster here), but also shutting down Planeswalkers,Deed and Maze of Ith. They are just really good tools to implement taking one mana to deploy not detrimental to the tempo plan and they preemptively halt activations like slow rolling Relics. Never dead in any matchup, maybe Mirrors.

I agree the needles are immencely versitle, but I am curious what you'd take out to fit them in and how that would affect matchups. If it mostly answers things that grip/ee already hit, i feel the redundancy might be a bit unwarranted if board space is tight. Care to give a sample board you could use it effectively? If Plainswalkers prove to be more viable, it could be invaluable

[menace13]

I agree the needles are immencely versitle, but I am curious what you'd take out to fit them in and how that would affect matchups. If it mostly answers things that grip/ee already hit, i feel the redundancy might be a bit unwarranted if board space is tight. Care to give a sample board you could use it effectively? If Plainswalkers prove to be more viable, it could be invaluable

Yeah that is always a concern and board space is always tight in Bant colored lists(just so many cards to use), but some matchups you have very few answers to deal with things Needles reverse that role-they must now rid of Needle-

Daze is obv on draw and some number of Ponders, Stifle doesn't actually do much against Thopters(targets O-Ring,EE x1,and always have their fetches).
Jesse Hatfield played a sb of 3 Needle,Grip,Crypt,PtE in SCG Phi Open.
So something like on play; -3 ponders -3 Stifle and -3 Daze -3 Stifle on draw for Grips(Cbalance,Moat) and Needles(Thopter,Jace).
With the 2 EE maindeck that gives now 8 ways to deal with Thopters and Top(EE will never hit Top unless he is stupid), 5 for Cbalance, 3 for Jace and Moat.

Edit: StP can also go out fully, totaly forgot about those(idiot) allows blue cards to stay for FoW count, Ponder out on play and Daze on draw.
@Sayno- I do not know your list and board, but Crucible is weak against a Noble and really slow if that is what you do on turn 3 on draw. Submerge for? over better removal like PtE,EE @1-2?

[Dzra]

on play; -3 ponders -3 Stifle and -3 Daze -3 Stifle on draw for Grips(Cbalance,Moat) and Needles(Thopter,Jace).

In either case, I don't see how you are able to keep your blue count high enough for FoW. For Thopters on the draw I would do something like -4 StP -2 Daze for +3 Grips +2 EE +1 Bojuka Bog and on the play -4 StP -2 FoW for +3 Grips +2 EE +1 Bog.

[menace13]

In either case, I don't see how you are able to keep your blue count high enough for FoW. For Thopters on the draw I would do something like -4 StP -2 Daze for +3 Grips +2 EE +1 Bojuka Bog and on the play -4 StP -2 FoW for +3 Grips +2 EE +1 Bog.

Yeah, That is why i had it edited. You took the wrong part, it would be Ponders and Daze with StP auto-out both games 2-3. Not sure taking a FoW out is the right call.

[Dzra]

I don't think I would take out Ponders though, especially on the play. A t1 Ponder and still able to Daze them on their turn is a very strong play.

[menace13]

I don't think I would take out Ponders though, especially on the play. A t1 Ponder and still able to Daze them on their turn is a very strong play.

Would that be stronger than Stifle(they play a ton of basics it may be correct to Stifle fetches) and Daze back up? The Ponder does help finding the board cards as well as action(rarely does it need to find land with 23), so it prolly comes down to Stifle with Daze growing weaker as the game goes on they will also have much more counter magic esp with FoWs out.

[Dzra]

Stifle is also definitely good. The best would probably be a Brainstorm, Stifle, and Daze in hand. My point is that the less one cmc spells you run, the less likely you will get a t1 play in a deck that really likes tempo. Sometimes it will work out fine of course, but a t1 Ponder/Brainstorm is there to insure your two drop or to grab some counters/SB if your two drop is already in hand. You really don't want to be draw-going.

[menace13]

Stifle is also definitely good. The best would probably be a Brainstorm, Stifle, and Daze in hand. My point is that the less one cmc spells you run, the less likely you will get a t1 play in a deck that really likes tempo. Sometimes it will work out fine of course, but a t1 Ponder/Brainstorm is there to insure your two drop or to grab some counters/SB if your two drop is already in hand. You really don't want to be draw-going.

I was able to get some testing in last night and the match up is not favorable, Moat is a headache unless Grip is in hand. Didn't have needles in board, but had Grips,EE and Kira, played Boddy's maindeck list. Stifle can also hit Thopter triggers and can halt it if it does not have another artifact to sac and once in a while can Stifle a Top trigger or Cbalance trigger too. Agreed, draw-go is def out the question against decks that play draw go better.

[jrsthethird]

Don't we just scoop to a resolved Moat pre-board? Unless of course you're counting on the singleton Clique to get there...

[ivanpei]

I tried the stock list out. I have to admit I'm no new horizons expert but it felt like the mana curve has a few holes in it. The deck does surprisingly little until you reach 3 mana.

Some cons:
Stifle does surprisingly little without spell snare. Leaving a mana open and having your opponent play around stifle is infinitely annoying. At least with spell snare, you can counter a 2 drop when they don't crack a fetch. Only four 2 drops (namely tarmogoyf). I've found too often that I don't utilize my mana fully on turn two. If I don't draw goyf, I usually just cantrip/swords on turn two. This felt like I was underusing my mana. Deck blows against combo, period. 4 Force 4 daze is not enough vs reanimator and Adnauseum/TES. Now with mystical's banning, I assume this is an acceptable fact.

Some pros:
Wasteland + Knight is brutal, Terravore is also pretty insane, being unchumpable is so good. Everything is so big, zoo just crashes its head against it and cries. Anything resembling aggro has problems keeping up size wise, even with stoneforge mystic and all the equipment running around.

This is what I'm playing to smooth out the deck's clunkiness a little bit:
4 Noble Heirarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Terravore

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Spell snare
4 Swords

3 Horizon canopy
8 Fetch
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland

This list is pretty smooth curve wise, and having spell snare shores up the control/combo matchup while being very good alongside stifle (cut 2 EE, 23rd land and a terravore) It kills a lot of the same things that EE was supposed to kill, like counterbalance, thopter foundry, opposing goyfs, etc. Noble heirarch instead of ponder, Noble speeds you up by a turn and the exalted is often very useful. I've like this list. It still is a bit weak vs control, I wish I could squeeze in a few jaces, but its pretty tight as it is. Your thoughts are very welcome!

[practical joke]

I'm not sure if you want to be playing a noble hierarch on T1 in a tempodeck.
If you want to keep up with combo, play less spell snares, they really get in the way against a lot of decks. Against goblins i.e. it only stops instigator and piledriver. It's limited where spell pierce is great, also works like crap against goblins as well, but does so much against everything else. Against goblins you'll have a decent sideboard.

[supachai]

With the banning of Mystical Tutor, there will be a rise in fast combo, ie SI, Belcher, etc. I've played against Vacrix alot, who's a excellent SI pilot. In our upwards of 30 games, I've won around 80 percent of the games, with and without board. We have enough counters to hold off the first time they try to go off. And we can usually win the race as they try to rebuild. I've found Meddling Mage to be pretty good post board. If you are really having trouble against combo, Spell Pierce is much stronger against them from the side than Spell Snares in the main in general.

I dislike Noble Hiearch in this deck. It doesn't add threat density and the exalted hardly matters since our creatures are so huge. We don't even have equipment for it to carry. The only thing we would use it for is the acceleration. We don't really need the extra mana in the first couple turns. After landing one of our Knights/Vores, I find I'm not doing much with my mana, occasionally Pondering or hardcasting Force. Also, turn 1 is when we want to be saving mana open for Stifle. While it can be played around, sometimes they can't and sometimes it hinders them enough, especially when you may or may not be holding them in hand. Anyways, I'd rather have Ponders to dig for threats and answers.

The 2 Explosives have been critical as secondary removal spells and against swarms of creatures. (Also good at taking out Stoneforge+Jitte or Serra Avenger+Jitte). They have been a little slow, but in my experience still unreplaceable.

[jrsthethird]

I tried the stock list out. I have to admit I'm no new horizons expert but it felt like the mana curve has a few holes in it. The deck does surprisingly little until you reach 3 mana.

8 Cantrips, 4 Goyfs, 4 Wasteland are proactive cards that cost less than 3.

Also, the deck doesn't need to do anything before 3 mana. You will either have an opponent who doesn't know the format and walks into your Stifles/Dazes, or they will realize you're playing NH and their play will slow down considerably as they try to play around cards you may/may not have (especially post-board when you typically side out your Stifles or Dazes for more proactive cards/answers).

If you go T1 Hierarch you lose the ability to Stifle early Fetchlands, which is terrible.


Some cons:
Stifle does surprisingly little without spell snare. Leaving a mana open and having your opponent play around stifle is infinitely annoying. At least with spell snare, you can counter a 2 drop when they don't crack a fetch. Only four 2 drops (namely tarmogoyf). I've found too often that I don't utilize my mana fully on turn two. If I don't draw goyf, I usually just cantrip/swords on turn two. This felt like I was underusing my mana. Deck blows against combo, period. 4 Force 4 daze is not enough vs reanimator and Adnauseum/TES. Now with mystical's banning, I assume this is an acceptable fact.

Combo decks are a little slower now and more vulnerable to our tempo. Sure, there is the occasional TES player but it's not a very frequent occurence. Stifle does so much for the deck that you don't realize. You can bluff Stifle and it slows your opponent a full turn because they will sit with fetchlands, and when you side it out your opponent will be playing around a card that doesn't even exist in your deck. Also, there are infinite things that you can Stifle that makes the card nuts. How about Zoo swinging an Exalted Nacatl into your 3/4 Goyf? Stifle the Exalted trigger and block, who knew blue had combat tricks?


This list is pretty smooth curve wise, and having spell snare shores up the control/combo matchup while being very good alongside stifle (cut 2 EE, 23rd land and a terravore) It kills a lot of the same things that EE was supposed to kill, like counterbalance, thopter foundry, opposing goyfs, etc. Noble heirarch instead of ponder, Noble speeds you up by a turn and the exalted is often very useful. I've like this list. It still is a bit weak vs control, I wish I could squeeze in a few jaces, but its pretty tight as it is. Your thoughts are very welcome!

Control shouldn't be a problem post-board, Crucible wrecks any deck that plays for the late game, and those same decks run a bunch of artifacts/enchantments and you run Grip. EE is similar to Stifle in that there are uncountable applications where the card is perfect.

Hierarch is really good but doesn't have much of a place in this deck. Exalted is only useful when you have a Goyf standstill, but we have 7 larger creatures that can break those situations wide open. The difference between a 4/5 and a 5/6 is huge; the difference between a 7/7 and 8/8 is negligible.

[ivanpei]

I do admit I am new to this deck, however I am throwing out a few bones and seeing what the response is. From what I understand, this deck is trying to fuse the disruption/tempo package of tempo thresh and mid game monsters like knight/terravore. I've played tempo thresh for a long time and have noticed it's creatures being outclassed at every corner. This has led to me switching to new horizons. I've liked what the deck does, but not all decks have to play around stifle/daze. The clock on this deck is very quick once you land a monster, yes, however I am looking to optimize the curve. I am still unhappy with the stock list's curve despite the arguments and am looking for alternatives on how to do so. I understand that having very little permanents at 1 and 2cc is also a strength due to the sweeping power of EE, but that also means lackey/warren instigator connects more often or stoneforge mystic/equipment/bob slips past early. Counting on a 2 off to appear handily is quite iffy. So is upping the EE count a good move if I stick to the stock list? I can see - 1 terravore and + 1 EE to the list.

[jrsthethird]

EE is also our only mainboard answer to any resolved non-creature permanents.

I played the regular list at Jupiter Games this weekend and went 4-2-1 with this sideboard:

4 Grip
2 EE
2 Crucible
2 RWM
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Worm Harvest
1 Condemn

I don't feel like typing a lot but here's how it played out:

Round 1 - lost 1-2 against Eva Green with white. Basically all 3 games were attrition battles but I topdecked heavy lands in games 2 and 3.
Round 2 - won 2-0 against MBA. Their deck didn't seem too good.
Round 3 - drew 1-1-1 against NO CounterTop. I managed to keep him off of NO all match but he had too much spot removal for me to punch through to finish game 3.
Round 4 - lost 1-2 against 4cc aggro. I don't know if I should have lost game 3 or not, but I wasn't paying attention and scooped to a Vialed in Rafiq post-blockers. =/ I was behind though and was probably done for soon, and there were about a minute left in the round anyway. His deck was very unique and each game felt like playing against a different deck, so he definitely got an advantage by just confusing the shit out of me with deck choice.
Round 5 - won 2-0 against ThopterTop. He mulled to 5 G1 and I didn't know what he was playing but I saw a Jace, so I boarded in the Bog so I could EE for 4 to kill Jace. Game 2 I answered something like 2 resolved Jace, Counterbalance, Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, and Humility and won. My highlight of the day was killing both Moat and Humility with EE on 4.
Round 6 - won 2-1 against RB goblins. Game 3 he kept a 1 land, 2 Vial hand and I blew him out with a Waste and EE on 1.
Round 7 - won 2-1 against Emrakul/Cloudpost ramp.

I got 18th, I missed top 16 because of shitty breakers (40% OMW =/).

[jrsthethird]

I understand that having very little permanents at 1 and 2cc is also a strength due to the sweeping power of EE, but that also means lackey/warren instigator connects more often or stoneforge mystic/equipment/bob slips past early. Counting on a 2 off to appear handily is quite iffy. So is upping the EE count a good move if I stick to the stock list? I can see - 1 terravore and + 1 EE to the list.

The only thing that you can't also kill with STP here is Equipment, but equipment is bad against us to begin with. Their creatures don't get big enough, Protection isn't relevant, and it's very mana-hungry so it's hard for them to optimally use it (plus we can Stifle their equips or the addition of Jitte counters).

Bob, Lackey, and Instigator suck but Daze shines against them, because the later they hit, the worse they are.

[supachai]

I understand that having very little permanents at 1 and 2cc is also a strength due to the sweeping power of EE, but that also means lackey/warren instigator connects more often or stoneforge mystic/equipment/bob slips past early. Counting on a 2 off to appear handily is quite iffy. So is upping the EE count a good move if I stick to the stock list? I can see - 1 terravore and + 1 EE to the list.

You can also Stifle both Lackey/Instigator and Stoneforge Mystic/Bob triggers ;)

[ivanpei]

Stifling lackey, instigator and bob triggers, are um... Temporary solutions. I can see the deck really needs the ee's now after playing around with the deck more. I'm guessing outside of Ee and knight tricks, the deck is really lacking in card advantage. I'll test more with stock -1 vore and +1 Ee. I find 10 bigs enough. Anyone thinks that the 11th big is mandatory?

[sigfig8]

I was play testing NH this past weekend and I tried something that may help with the curve situation a little bit. What about running MD pithing needles? I see two scenarios happening here...1)they're playing counter-top, thopter-foundry, aether vial, EE, Jace 2.0, etc. and you can needle them game 1, which is pretty tech. OR 2) they're not playing useful things to needle but they are playing fetches and you can name polluted delta. Consider this scenario: you play land, they play fetch go, you play land and play pithing needle. Then they either fetch in response and walk right into your stifle or you can name their fetch land to completely throw them off.

It's also another 1 drop that you can play on turn 2 to use more mana...

[supachai]

I'm just saying that Stifle has a lot of uses outside of Stifling fetches. Along with some of the other uses mentioned above, it's there to randomly mess up the opponent. I admit it's not the strongest card in the deck, but I think it pairs better with the mana denial plan than either Spell Snare or Spell Pierce.

While we may not have too much card advantage, decks like New Horizons use card quality. With 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder, along with a multitude of shuffle effects, we just draw what we need, be it a counter, removal, or a threat. The 11th creature is certainly debatable. People have also tried Vendillion Clique in that slot, but I'm not sure how good it actually is. I actually really liked EE and replaced the 4th Ponder with it. While it was fine, I found that usually 1 EE a game is usually enough to wipe the board enough. Besides, Ponders and Brainstorm help us dig for answers like EE.

[sigfig8]

I know the matchup versus Merfolk is a difficult one. Has anyone ever tried fooling around with Thelon's Curse? GG Enchantment: Blue creatures do not untap as normal during their controller's untap phase. During his or her upkeep, a blue creature's controller may pay an additional U to untap it. Each creature may be untapped in this way only once per turn.

Or how about testing Seedtime: 1G instant: Play Seedtime only on your turn. If an opponent played a blue spell this turn, take an extra turn after this one.

What do you think? Thelon's Curse could be pretty devastating post-board, especially if we pithing needle aether vial.

[jrsthethird]

Stifling lackey, instigator and bob triggers, are um... Temporary solutions. I can see the deck really needs the ee's now after playing around with the deck more. I'm guessing outside of Ee and knight tricks, the deck is really lacking in card advantage. I'll test more with stock -1 vore and +1 Ee. I find 10 bigs enough. Anyone thinks that the 11th big is mandatory?

Stifling Bob seems like a terrible play. Stifle against Instigator is pretty stupid, but Stifling T1 Lackey buys you enough time to drop a blocker/EE.


I was play testing NH this past weekend and I tried something that may help with the curve situation a little bit. What about running MD pithing needles? I see two scenarios happening here...1)they're playing counter-top, thopter-foundry, aether vial, EE, Jace 2.0, etc. and you can needle them game 1, which is pretty tech. OR 2) they're not playing useful things to needle but they are playing fetches and you can name polluted delta. Consider this scenario: you play land, they play fetch go, you play land and play pithing needle. Then they either fetch in response and walk right into your stifle or you can name their fetch land to completely throw them off.

It's also another 1 drop that you can play on turn 2 to use more mana...

The lack of a curve is not a problem! Pithing Needle main is ok, and it can completely blank fetches (awesome if they're trying to play around Stifle and let it resolve with multiples of the same fetch). There are too many decks though where it is dead.


I'm just saying that Stifle has a lot of uses outside of Stifling fetches. Along with some of the other uses mentioned above, it's there to randomly mess up the opponent. I admit it's not the strongest card in the deck, but I think it pairs better with the mana denial plan than either Spell Snare or Spell Pierce.

While we may not have too much card advantage, decks like New Horizons use card quality. With 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder, along with a multitude of shuffle effects, we just draw what we need, be it a counter, removal, or a threat. The 11th creature is certainly debatable. People have also tried Vendillion Clique in that slot, but I'm not sure how good it actually is. I actually really liked EE and replaced the 4th Ponder with it. While it was fine, I found that usually 1 EE a game is usually enough to wipe the board enough. Besides, Ponders and Brainstorm help us dig for answers like EE.

I don't like Clique, at least over Terravore. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not, but I'm going to test by cutting a land for an additional threat, Jace. I'm really satisfied with the deck but I'm thinking that 23 land might be a little much (22 might be too little as well, I think if we could run 22.5 in some universe it would be perfect). The deck is definitely growing in popularity and is well positioned in the metagame, but if everyone runs the same list the metagame will catch up to it and know exactly what to expect.

About the Fish matchup, Dueling Grounds seems better than Thelon's Curse, since you restrict them to only attacking with one creature per turn. Seedtime is bad because it requires 4 or 5 mana to reliably cast, by that time we shouldn't need extra turns or anything.

[CryTillEuphoria]

Now, as an inexperienced player, I could be wrong, but I would see adding aether vials and mangara of condors with a karakas as a potentially very good idea

[jrsthethird]

I see you only have one post and you admit you're inexperienced, so here's a little information about why that's a terrible idea:

Vial is terrible in this deck, with only 11 creatures, it will mostly be untapped, and it's the kind of card that is optimally played turn 1, where we would rather be disrupting our opponent's tempo. I understand that adding Mangara gives you a couple more creatures, but what do you cut from the standard list to support Vial + Mangara?

Probably some combination of Ponders or Terravores, which cuts the consistency and the threat density. Cutting Goyf is terrible, cutting Knights weakens the Karakas tutor potential, and cutting anything else weakens the tempo package severely (not to mention the blue count for FOW).

Mangara alone wouldn't be a bad idea (and a decent sideboard plan for a Karakas list) if he didn't cost double white. It's a little too prohibitive for a deck that needs multiple blue and green sources already.

Karakas is an easy fit since it's a land and tutorable with Knight. It slightly weakens the mana when included in the main, so it's up to weigh the costs of including the Karakas as a 23rd land (either cutting a Canopy or a fetch) against the costs of running it as a sideboard card (in one of the couple flex spots we have). With the increasing popularity of Emrakul decks, I think including a Karakas somewhere in our 75 is mandatory.

[sigfig8]

If one doesn't own a Karakas, are there any legitimate alternatives?

[ShiftyKapree]

If one doesn't own a Karakas, are there any legitimate alternatives?

Maze of ith is a decent replacement

[sigfig8]

Maze of ith is a decent replacement

Does Maze of Ith stop Annihilator trigger? How about Ensnaring Bridge? Kind of a blanket stopper against Emrakul, dreadnought, inkwell, iona.

[schniggaz]

If you play Ensnaring Bridge, your Terravores and Knight of the Reliquarys can't attack. Probably not the best idea. And Maze of Ith doesn't stop the Annihilater trigger, but Stifle does ;-)

[jrsthethird]

Maze of ith is a decent replacement

Shell out the extra few bucks for Karakas if you're going to run a deck that already costs over a grand.

[sigfig8]

Shell out the extra few bucks for Karakas if you're going to run a deck that already costs over a grand.

Actually, you make a good point. I just picked one up. Thanks for the advice.

Ok, so now what decks should we worry about the most with our SB?

[Emerald_Dream]

I do admit I am new to this deck, however I am throwing out a few bones and seeing what the response is. From what I understand, this deck is trying to fuse the disruption/tempo package of tempo thresh and mid game monsters like knight/terravore. I've played tempo thresh for a long time and have noticed it's creatures being outclassed at every corner. This has led to me switching to new horizons. I've liked what the deck does, but not all decks have to play around stifle/daze. The clock on this deck is very quick once you land a monster, yes, however I am looking to optimize the curve. I am still unhappy with the stock list's curve despite the arguments and am looking for alternatives on how to do so. I understand that having very little permanents at 1 and 2cc is also a strength due to the sweeping power of EE, but that also means lackey/warren instigator connects more often or stoneforge mystic/equipment/bob slips past early. Counting on a 2 off to appear handily is quite iffy. So is upping the EE count a good move if I stick to the stock list? I can see - 1 terravore and + 1 EE to the list.

I think Ivan is saying that while some cards like daze and wasteland are t1/2 plays they do not further our own board position. This means that we are no closer to dropping a 3 drop after playing one of these and hence the deck can be awkward until it resolves a big monster.

[five]

Actually, you make a good point. I just picked one up. Thanks for the advice.

Ok, so now what decks should we worry about the most with our SB?

It has been a while since I played this deck, but I remember b/r Goblins to be a terrible match up. We have limited answers to a T1 Lackey, and they tend to overwhelm us by the time we get a Knight out. People have been playing Path out of the SB. It is not great in the early game, where we need it, but I guess it is a start. I know that ghostly prison rocks Gobbos, but there is only so many flex spots in the board.

[jrsthethird]

I'm 2-0 in tournaments against BR goblins. Basically, they run fetches/Badlands/Hovels and we can use our Stifles/Wastelands to keep them off black mana. Both of my matches have been rather late in tournaments, so the players weren't terrible, but of the 5 games I played, 1 of them was on a goblins mull to 5 and another one they kept a 1 land, 2 Vial hand (this was game 3, so they knew I was on NH). I got lucky with the mull, and in the other game I Wasted the land and EE'd the Vials, so he was sitting on an empty board for a couple turns.

They board in Perish games 2 and 3, so keeping them off of black is often good, and they can tutor for Warren Weirding, so if they don't have black open, it would be a good idea to sandbag a Waste (if you don't need the colorless mana) and blow up their only black source after they waste their tutor on a black spell.

Mono-red goblins is much harder because our mana-denial plan is severely weakened. Wasteland only serves to either protect our mana from their Wastes (if they tap them for mana early), or to blow up troublesome Ports. Either plan isn't very good.

Dueling Grounds seems like the nuts against them, I would go for at least 2 in a goblins-heavy meta. They obviously have no means to remove it (disregarding sideboard Duress effects from RB or Grip from RG), and you can't expect them to side in Grip against a deck with no maindeck targets.

Path is ok but it gives them a land, which sucks. You can run Condemn instead to handle turn 1 Lackey, and remember, we can always Stifle the trigger.

[mchainmail]

Shell out the extra few bucks for Karakas if you're going to run a deck that already costs over a grand.

Practice what you preach.

Also, Goblins can run Blood Moon, and Warren Weirding eliminates one of your few threats. It doesn't seem like a good matchup, regardless of a couple practice games.

[sigfig8]

When it comes down to Columbus this weekend, though, I wonder what % of the field will be playing goblins? 3% maybe? I'm sure merfolk and zoo will be stronger, along with CB-Top thopters or NO or whatever. Should my sideboard not be focused more for these matchups?

I'm looking at this sideboard, but not loving it:

3x Grip
3x Meddling Mage
3x Rhox War Monk
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Explosives (I have 2 in the main)

I thought about going down a ponder in the main to run the 3rd EE main. This frees up one more slot (for Path or Ghostly Prison). Also thought about dropping 1 MM but everyone says it's such a nuts sideboard card. What decks do the mages come in against and what cards do we name? Combo comes to mind first, but we've got 8 counterspells main, plus TES and Reanimator rely very heavily on fetches because they love those shuffle effects. So I become reserved at saving SB slots for matchups we should have a decent shot at. I think with Jace 2.0 and thopter foundry running rampant, the needles are handy.

So now I have 2 slots freed up (-1 MM and -1 E.E. for main). Do I throw 2 PtE in and call it a day? Then I lack crucibles, which seem so good!

[flyboyeze]

I'm 2-0 in tournaments against BR goblins. Basically, they run fetches/Badlands/Hovels and we can use our Stifles/Wastelands to keep them off black mana. Both of my matches have been rather late in tournaments, so the players weren't terrible, but of the 5 games I played, 1 of them was on a goblins mull to 5 and another one they kept a 1 land, 2 Vial hand (this was game 3, so they knew I was on NH). I got lucky with the mull, and in the other game I Wasted the land and EE'd the Vials, so he was sitting on an empty board for a couple turns.

They board in Perish games 2 and 3, so keeping them off of black is often good, and they can tutor for Warren Weirding, so if they don't have black open, it would be a good idea to sandbag a Waste (if you don't need the colorless mana) and blow up their only black source after they waste their tutor on a black spell.

Mono-red goblins is much harder because our mana-denial plan is severely weakened. Wasteland only serves to either protect our mana from their Wastes (if they tap them for mana early), or to blow up troublesome Ports. Either plan isn't very good.

Dueling Grounds seems like the nuts against them, I would go for at least 2 in a goblins-heavy meta. They obviously have no means to remove it (disregarding sideboard Duress effects from RB or Grip from RG), and you can't expect them to side in Grip against a deck with no maindeck targets.

Path is ok but it gives them a land, which sucks. You can run Condemn instead to handle turn 1 Lackey, and remember, we can always Stifle the trigger.


So i really like ur idea of running dueling grounds, regardless of warren weirding or not it still keeps them at a controlled pace. Great idea. Overall with the banning of Mystical Tutor i think New Horizons is well placed in the current meta of Zoo and Counter-Top X.

Also has anyone realized that each creature that this deck runs relies greatly on having a graveyard filled with lands and various types of cards... which means it terribly fragile to grave hate... i have been unimpressed with Terravore so i motion to try and replace that with a creature that doesnt die without a graveyard... My suggestion earlier on the thread to play 1 Trickbind and 2 Phyrexian Dreadnought was poorly received bc ppl thought it was blastphemous and thought i intended to redifine the deck entirely with the addition of a new use for stifle... idk just seems to me that it would fit perfectly in the deck since it would survive grave hate late game.

[Dark Ritual]

If you expect lots of zoo why in gods name would you play dreadnought? He's worse than vore against zoo which you say will be a major % of the field at the GP simply because they then 2 for 1 us when they blow up our dreadnought with QPM. And zoo isn't the only deck packing pridemage there are others like UGw tempo, bant aggro, NO progenitus, survival decks. Dreadnought doesn't see much play for a reason.

Dueling grounds is the nuts against goblins, as a 2 of in the board it seems to be too little I would probably play 3 to make sure I see one postboard because it stops piledriver shenanigans and they can't swarm us with a bunch of goblins. The MU should be winnable with the right SB but it is hardly a cakewalk.

[jrsthethird]

Practice what you preach.

Also, Goblins can run Blood Moon, and Warren Weirding eliminates one of your few threats. It doesn't seem like a good matchup, regardless of a couple practice games.

Never said it was a good matchup, but it seems much more winnable than mono-R goblins. Blood Moon is nuts though, not sure what to do about that.

And dude, it's been about 5 days since I realized I needed a Karakas. You were one of the first people I told about getting it; I just haven't had the chance yet, I'll get one by the next Vestal tournament, and I'm sure Eli will still have a couple in stock. If you can trade for one at Columbus, let me know and I'll buy it from you for $30 (English).


When it comes down to Columbus this weekend, though, I wonder what % of the field will be playing goblins? 3% maybe? I'm sure merfolk and zoo will be stronger, along with CB-Top thopters or NO or whatever. Should my sideboard not be focused more for these matchups?

I'm looking at this sideboard, but not loving it:

3x Grip
3x Meddling Mage
3x Rhox War Monk
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Explosives (I have 2 in the main)

I thought about going down a ponder in the main to run the 3rd EE main. This frees up one more slot (for Path or Ghostly Prison). Also thought about dropping 1 MM but everyone says it's such a nuts sideboard card. What decks do the mages come in against and what cards do we name? Combo comes to mind first, but we've got 8 counterspells main, plus TES and Reanimator rely very heavily on fetches because they love those shuffle effects. So I become reserved at saving SB slots for matchups we should have a decent shot at. I think with Jace 2.0 and thopter foundry running rampant, the needles are handy.

So now I have 2 slots freed up (-1 MM and -1 E.E. for main). Do I throw 2 PtE in and call it a day? Then I lack crucibles, which seem so good!

I haven't played with Meddling Mage but I don't see any need for it, except when you want a couple more blue cards for FOW. I don't know if you've played much with Crucible, but it almost singlehandedly wins the game if we land it against any control deck (Lands, Landstill, Thopters) or the mirror. Meddling Mage and Pithing Needle seem to have a similar purpose, so I would pick one and ditch the other for 2 Crucible.


So i really like ur idea of running dueling grounds, regardless of warren weirding or not it still keeps them at a controlled pace. Great idea. Overall with the banning of Mystical Tutor i think New Horizons is well placed in the current meta of Zoo and Counter-Top X.

Also has anyone realized that each creature that this deck runs relies greatly on having a graveyard filled with lands and various types of cards... which means it terribly fragile to grave hate... i have been unimpressed with Terravore so i motion to try and replace that with a creature that doesnt die without a graveyard... My suggestion earlier on the thread to play 1 Trickbind and 2 Phyrexian Dreadnought was poorly received bc ppl thought it was blastphemous and thought i intended to redifine the deck entirely with the addition of a new use for stifle... idk just seems to me that it would fit perfectly in the deck since it would survive grave hate late game.

If they run Relics, we can always Stifle the ability and they lose their Relic. Other gravehate isn't as devastating since they can only use it on one of the two graveyards. We also have Grip which can get them if they stall on using their hate. It's a lot easier to play around it than to alter our win conditions and leave us open to terrible two-for-ones.

[sigfig8]

Never said it was a good matchup, but it seems much more winnable than mono-R goblins. Blood Moon is nuts though, not sure what to do about that.


I haven't played with Meddling Mage but I don't see any need for it, except when you want a couple more blue cards for FOW. I don't know if you've played much with Crucible, but it almost singlehandedly wins the game if we land it against any control deck (Lands, Landstill, Thopters) or the mirror. Meddling Mage and Pithing Needle seem to have a similar purpose, so I would pick one and ditch the other for 2 Crucible.



You make a very good point with the Needle/MM. I'll pick 1 of the 2 and add 2 Crucible. Do you think since the meta will likely be full of Zoo, Merfolk, and Goblins, that 3 EE main is wise? I'll probably take out a Ponder for a 3rd EE. Either that or just run 61 cards...I've always felt 23 lands was too much and 22 was too little anyways. If I work in the 3rd EE, I can likely squeeze a PtE or 2 in the SB.

Also, how good has Vendilion Clique been for people? I like the synergy with Karakas, but I feel like Terravore just gets bigger and better against aggro decks.

[five]

You make a very good point with the Needle/MM. I'll pick 1 of the 2 and add 2 Crucible. Do you think since the meta will likely be full of Zoo, Merfolk, and Goblins, that 3 EE main is wise? I'll probably take out a Ponder for a 3rd EE. Either that or just run 61 cards...I've always felt 23 lands was too much and 22 was too little anyways. If I work in the 3rd EE, I can likely squeeze a PtE or 2 in the SB.

Also, how good has Vendilion Clique been for people? I like the synergy with Karakas, but I feel like Terravore just gets bigger and better against aggro decks.

I know it sounds cliche, but you probably don't want to take out Ponder because it reduces your blue count for FoW. If you play the V-Clique instead of 'Vore, I guess it evens out. I can't comment on the Clique, but I agree that Vore is a house. It is hard to argue with Boddy's results though. I guess that was a meta with Mystical Tutor, so maybe the Clique was more valuable?

I like 4 Ponders in this deck because it helps you find what you need. There are only 12 creatures and 4 removal spells in the deck. Anything that helps dig a little deeper to find those needed cards is an asset. Zoo and Merfolk are not bad match ups IMO. Since your are runnning RWM out of the board, I think that is enough space dedicated to those match ups.

You should probably get a Karakas and practice the Show and Tell match ups. Also, be aware that people will probalby be playing something with Imperial Recruiter, so maybe practice against Aluren and Imperial Painter. Imperial Painter uses Bloodmoon/Magus so watch out! You can't sacricice mountains to KotR...

[flyboyeze]

[QUOTE=Dark Ritual;476532]If you expect lots of zoo why in gods name would you play dreadnought? He's worse than vore against zoo which you say will be a major % of the field at the GP simply because they then 2 for 1 us when they blow up our dreadnought with QPM. And zoo isn't the only deck packing pridemage there are others like UGw tempo, bant aggro, NO progenitus, survival decks. Dreadnought doesn't see much play for a reason.

You can just as easily stifle the Qasali Pridemages ability as you could a land or something else... i just hate sitting with terravore at 5/5 then someone drops Relic of Progenitus and kills my entire deck... literally THE ENTIRE DECK BLOWS fromt that point on, your creatures require a graveyard to win so as a fail safe to the main way i get beat IE gravehate i run 2 Phyrexian Dreadnought main with extra Trickbinds in the sideboard. I also run the Vendilion Clique + Karakas package so i can eliminate Qasali Pridemage b4 it hits the board.

No plan/card suggestion is without holes/flaws you just need to adapt to compensate for its weaknesses, while you may focus on hosing all grave hate and favor terravore, i make them board in twice as many cards to hose my creatures in favor of Phyrexian Dreadnought. I figure i make it harder for most decks to deal with it.

[jrsthethird]

I just decided to maindeck a Karakas, so I put the Clique back in instead of a Terravore. Previously, without the Karakas, I was unimpressed, but I can see the Karakas interaction changing my mind. Also, I added a Jace, the Mind Sculptor instead of a Ponder to try it out, I'm not sure how that is going to work out. I tested against The Gate tonight, it went alright, Jace was a house in the late game, but he began to overrun me with Bitterblossom tokens and I couldn't keep up.

[five]

[QUOTE=Dark Ritual;476532]If you expect lots of zoo why in gods name would you play dreadnought? He's worse than vore against zoo which you say will be a major % of the field at the GP simply because they then 2 for 1 us when they blow up our dreadnought with QPM. And zoo isn't the only deck packing pridemage there are others like UGw tempo, bant aggro, NO progenitus, survival decks. Dreadnought doesn't see much play for a reason.

You can just as easily stifle the Qasali Pridemages ability as you could a land or something else... i just hate sitting with terravore at 5/5 then someone drops Relic of Progenitus and kills my entire deck... literally THE ENTIRE DECK BLOWS fromt that point on, your creatures require a graveyard to win so as a fail safe to the main way i get beat IE gravehate i run 2 Phyrexian Dreadnought main with extra Trickbinds in the sideboard. I also run the Vendilion Clique + Karakas package so i can eliminate Qasali Pridemage b4 it hits the board.

No plan/card suggestion is without holes/flaws you just need to adapt to compensate for its weaknesses, while you may focus on hosing all grave hate and favor terravore, i make them board in twice as many cards to hose my creatures in favor of Phyrexian Dreadnought. I figure i make it harder for most decks to deal with it.

EE at 1 is really good against Zoo, but unfortunately kills the Dreadnought too.

[CaptShetz]

I have been following this thread for awhile, and decided to GPT with my own version of the deck. Won some byes, took it to the GP, and won money (57th place).

I am aware this is not a stock New Horizons build, and I am not certain my list can still be considered "New Horizons," but my opponents all seemed to think so, and "Bant Aggro" isn't quite right, either. I disrupt my opponent with spells and wastelands, and follow that up with some extreme fat, usually with counterspell backup. Seems like the NH gameplan. Anyway, here is the list:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Wasteland

SB
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Elspeth
1 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Meddling Mage
2 Hydroblast
1 Path to Exile

Notable differences:
Noble Hierarch: turn 2 fat is pretty decent, but more often it just allows me to play goyf on turn 2 with daze backup. It also lets me daze turn 1 and still play goyf turn 2. Also, wins goyf wars and is often enough to get in the last few points.

No Stifle: Playing Hierarch makes stifle awkward, and most players are able to play around stifle. After playing a lot of Canadian Thresh last year, I knew I didn't want to include it.

Spell Pierce over Spell Snare: Tarmo-who? Countering Show and Tell, Natural Order, Aluren, and Dark Ritual are way more important than 2 mana creatures. It can usually still counter a Counterbalance. The only 2 mana creature I want to counter is Lord of Atlantis, and I'll take the hit.

No Terravore: Don't get me wrong - Terravore is trump in the mirror, and against anything with a million chumps, but KotR and Goyf are both pretty fat, and you can usually grind out the chumps (goblins, usually). Being cold to relic of progenitus is also something I would like to avoid.

JTMS: Amazing. Weakest in the Goblins and Zoo matches, he is still a strong card advantage engine that can affect the board state. Also let's you "get there" vs Landstill when you have no business winning.

At the GP, after my three byes, I beat goblins, zoo, 4c supreme blue, zoo again (this time piloted by Tom Ross... I think I kept him out of top 8... sorry Boss!), Excalibur (bant with stoneforge mystic), belcher, 43lands, and finally Aluren piloted by Todd Anderson.

I lost to show and tell (this guy had the nuts while I had mediocre draws... eureka into both prog AND emrakul with plentiful countermagic protection, game 2 show and tell emrakul with force of will backup, mana for daze... I got CRUSHED), then lost to 4c counterbalance piloted by Gabe Walls (one misplay, which I parlayed into a second, got me game 1. He crushed me game 2). I also lost to survival of the fittest first round of day 2 thanks to a great punt game 2, Aluren piloted by Tom Raney and Merfolk with double insane LoA draws.

Lessons learned: I need an out to Progenitus. Maybe VClique is the answer to big Prog, but just having a giant KotR is often enough to make Proggy sit on D (although a second NO giving him vigilance is problematic, as I painfully learned from Todd Anderson). Meddling Mage naming Natural Order/Show and Tell is about all the game I have at the moment. Emrakul is pretty dangerous, and if I don't have Jace, I'm pretty dead. Maybe Karakas should come in for the basic plains, or maybe I should have sower of temptation in the board.

Also, I shouldn't tap out vs Gabe Walls when I have a pridemage on the board, even if I am in the middle of fetching. Herp derp.

Kill/Counter evasion guys. Obv the big guys (Prog and Em) listed above, but I let a VClique resolve and I couldn't do anything about it. The faeries tore me to shreds.

My testing vs Merfolk revealed that I cannot beat Lord of Atlantis. Anything else and I am ok. Just not LoA. Not sure what to do about that. Probably Engineered Explosives, just need to determine the room.

Right now, the deck has good matchups vs goblins and zoo. They were a large percentage of the meta for this GP, but that might go down now that none of them made top 8. Merfolk is going to be a bigger problem, and they will be even more dangerous with perish out of the board. Doomsday, Counterbalance, and maybe rock-ish decks may become more popular.

To compensate, I am considering:
No MD changes at this time, except maybe switching around the fetchlands a little more. The basic plains is probably being dropped - to either become Savannah or Karakas.
SB
-3 Tormod's Crypt (only good vs lands, and KotR is pretty good vs them already, plus their meta percentage is slipping - Dredge isn't real, and neither is the new Reanimator..blah blah as soon as you don't hate on it, it comes back, I know, I know)
+1 Meddling Mage
+2 Engineered Explosives

Any suggestions?

[deadlock]

CaptShetz you asked for suggestions / comments, so here they are!


Noble Hierarch: turn 2 fat is pretty decent, but more often it just allows me to play goyf on turn 2 with daze backup. It also lets me daze turn 1 and still play goyf turn 2. Also, wins goyf wars and is often enough to get in the last few points.

100% agree, not running her is plain wrong in my opinion. The implications of her inclusion are twofold (in respect to your list):
- You are stronger against none-basic hate, therefore drop the Plains definitly. You just need the basic Island and Forest as you want to open the game with them, where you never (there is always and exception ofc) want to open the game with basic plains
- Additional mana means that you could get mana flooded at times. I run 19 lands opposed to your 21, which is too much with Noble in the picture. You also missing Horizon Canopy, which lets you convert excess lands back into cards. Take a look at my current mana base for reference:

4 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswepth Heath
1 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
+ 4 Noble ofc
--
23 sources total



No Stifle: Playing Hierarch makes stifle awkward, and most players are able to play around stifle. After playing a lot of Canadian Thresh last year, I knew I didn't want to include it.

Spell Pierce over Spell Snare: Tarmo-who? Countering Show and Tell, Natural Order, Aluren, and Dark Ritual are way more important than 2 mana creatures. It can usually still counter a Counterbalance. The only 2 mana creature I want to counter is Lord of Atlantis, and I'll take the hit.

I am not sure what is stronger in the maindeck, if Stifle is included then defintly run Pierce in the board. Spell Snare is out of question in my opinion like you said. Stifle has a stronger synergy with the land destruction theme, it allows you to devastate the opponent in the vein of TA and very important, its a maindeck answer to GY hate (besides its other numerous other applications). Running Noble is not a good reason to not run Stifle in my opinion, again i take TA for reference, which runs Thoughtseize and Stifle at the same time. Theoretically there some situations where they could block each other, but in real game scenarions its quiete seldom i think. For example if you are on the draw, you want to play Noble over Stifle in almost any case.
Spell Pierce on the other hand is very strong as it allows one to stop key threats like CB, S & T, Natural Order, Plainswalker, Doomsday etc. Originally Price run Misdirection to protect his creatures, Pierce fullfills this role much more than Stifle does and is more verstatile than Misdirection at the same time. More input in this regard is appreciated.




3 Qasali Pridemage

3 Pridemage over 2 EE in the maindeck (i run 2 EE sb), i agree with this completly. It makes us slightly worse against swarm decks like Elves, but in most cases i think that Pridemage is stronger as it makes the deck more aggresive and less reactionary (i emphasize this point later on). Running the EE in the maindeck is still very good. Like the Stifle question its a meta question. Maybe i will try a mix between Pmage and EE next time.



No Terravore: Don't get me wrong - Terravore is trump in the mirror, and against anything with a million chumps, but KotR and Goyf are both pretty fat, and you can usually grind out the chumps (goblins, usually). Being cold to relic of progenitus is also something I would like to avoid.

(2 Rhox instead of 2 Terra). I disagree with this change, while you points are valid you have to keep in mind that here is almost no GY hate in game1, g2 you can still side out Terra.
In my opinion Terra serves a finisher role, as it has Trample. This is very important, as sometimes the groun gets stalled and Tarmos / Knights cannot attack without, casting Terra to break the stalmate in such a situation is very good. An alternative is Clique with flying. Clique is stronger against control and combo, but otherwise poor compared to Terra in my opinion.

I like to run 2 Rhox in the board against aggro, but in other cases they fall short as they dont have enough punch to end the game quickly.
Speaking of punch, this brings me to a more general point regarding Ugw Tempo decks in general. In the past Ugw was dismissed as a colour combination for a tempo deck, because STP while efficient - gives your opponent live back, which drags the game out and negates your tempo advantage (there might be other reasons, but i will keep it focused on my cause). The innovation was then to run creatures, which are so large that they negate the life gain from STP and keep your tempo plan up.
Knight is the key component in that regard, but Terra fullfills a very important role too as already said, he complements our "KOTR - engine".

To emphasize this, i see NH strictly as tempo deck and with this in mind its only natural to reject cards like Jace tms, its like one suggest such a bulky and slow card in TA / Canadian - it doesnt belong in my opinion. Ofcourse there are arguments to counteract this, most importantly the raw power of Jace, which supersedes the strategy / synergy aspect of a deck. This would imply that it good to put Jace in every blue based deck, even if he contradicts the decks strategy (sounds kinda worrysome imo).



Lessons learned: I need an out to Progenitus
Having a giant Knight is good, but having a giant Terravore is better (trample!). If you are desperate for an answer then running a couple of Wing Shards in the board could be decent.

I dont want to discuss the complete board for now as this got far to long, but definitly run a Bojuka Bog in it!

Hope this helps.

[practical joke]

Your list, capshetz, isn't a tempo-deck anymore.
It's a total aggro-control list now that kept it's wastelands in it, nonetheless grats on your result!

as deadlock said, you definately lack the horizon canopy in there, which makes the draw engine from new horizons a bit stronger.

[mossivo1986]

Your list, capshetz, isn't a tempo-deck anymore.
It's a total aggro-control list now that kept it's wastelands in it, nonetheless grats on your result!

as deadlock said, you definately lack the horizon canopy in there, which makes the draw engine from new horizons a bit stronger.

What exactly is a total aggro-control list?

Why isn't his model a tempo list?

Let's take a quick look at things:

Noble Hierarch: To help develope your mana early, exalted later, fight against wasteland, stifle plan.
Wasteland, to gain advantage at keeping your opponent low on resources making his spells more managable to counter.
Daze/ Spell pierce, stopping your opponent from casting relevent non-creature spells that get him into the game.

That sounds like a tempo oriented deck to me.... because it is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[practical joke]

Tempo-decks destroy the development of an opponent while taking it's time to cripple an opponent.

Aggro-control decks take the form they need to take down the opponent.
This can be an aggressive show: hierarch into knight for faster beats for example and using jace to clear the way, while protecting the beatsticks.
This can be controllish, taking their time with only a selective part of creatures, using jace for CA and digging for the counterspells needed.

noble hierach isn't the right card for a tempo-deck, it increases your speed, but you are limiting yourself with the ammount of first turn spells you can play. It's the odd one out for a tempo-deck. It enhances your manabase but to what extend, your control has to offer.
You would like to play that brainstorm if you need it first turn against a discard deck or the spell pierce against combo, since you might need that second counterspell badly.

It's a bit contradiction to call it a tempo-deck.

[mossivo1986]

noble hierach isn't the right card for a tempo-deck, it increases your speed, but you are limiting yourself with the ammount of first turn spells you can play. It's the odd one out for a tempo-deck. It enhances your manabase but to what extend, your control has to offer.
You would like to play that brainstorm if you need it first turn against a discard deck or the spell pierce against combo, since you might need that second counterspell badly.

It's a bit contradiction to call it a tempo-deck.

So your shining example of why noble hierarch is bad for a tempo deck is that combo can potentially go off (paranoid much?) or that a black deck can cast discard spells. hmm. See theres a spell called daze. It's pprreeetttyyy good.

You gain tempo when you stop your opponent from doing what he wants to do while you advance your own gameplan. This list develops tempo by abusing synergies with Noble Hierarch. The synergy between Noble Hierarch, Daze, Wasteland and, to a lesser degree, Spell Pierce are what gain you tempo because you're stopping your opponent from developing while you develop like normal. Other tempo decks try to do this simply by slowing the development of their opponent's deck with cards like Stifle and Wasteland. Wastelanding someone's land doesn't generate tempo because you haven't developed your manabase with the land you played. However, with Noble Hierarch, you're able to continue to develop your manabase while attacking your opponent's at the same time.

[nestle_19]

guys how do we deal with mono black with tons of removal ? I played them with twice this FNM and I cant keep up with their removal. Are mono colored decks a bad match ups because we can't use our wastelands and stifles? thanks

[jrsthethird]

Noble Hierarch gives you early game tempo by putting yourself 1 mana ahead of your opponent (or by baiting a counter or removal spell).
Stifle gives you early game tempo by putting your opponent 1 mana behind you.

These plans don't work well in unison; in general, both cards are most powerful when played turn 1, and their effectiveness drops every turn thereafter. Team America can get away with Thoughtseize as a 1 drop because it does not necessarily decrease in value as the game goes on, so they can easily leave open U for Stifle and Seize you turn 2, and if you're playing around Stifle, it's likely that either:

A. You will have the same contents in your hand as turn 1, plus one more card for your turn so Thoughtseize gives you more options and information to take the most relevant card

OR

B. In an attempt to protect their best card from Thoughtseize, they will Brainstorm and walk right into your Stifle.

Late game Thoughtseize is not nearly as terrible as Stifle (which is multi-faceted but generally weak late game), or Hierarch (yay turn 10 0/1??). It can be used to proactively protect your big threat (Tombstalker), while Stifle sits around waiting to power out FOW and Hierarch gives your 9/9 a negligible +1/+1.

I do not advocate the use of Hierarch in this deck because I understand how powerful Stifle can be, but if you choose to run Hierarch, you shouldn't be running Stifle because they are counter-productive together.

--------

Anyway, looking at recent Team America lists, two interesting cantrips have been used: Portent and Predict. This is probably too cutesy for us but it deserves mentioning:

Portent may appear to be inferior to Ponder, but it has the ability to screw with your opponent's topdecks. Sure, it delays our cantrip, but it gives us 3 cards of relevant game information, and based on the power of Jace's fateseal ability, being able to manipulate your opponent's draws is a powerful effect.

Predict has awesome synergy with our normal cantrips (and Jace, for those who decide to run him), being able to take one bad card (an extra land, or something like STP against combo) and turn it into two fresh cards. It also allows us to mess with the opponent, if we happen to know what's on top of their library, be it a Counterbalance flip, a Top activation, or a Portent cast on them earlier in the game. Team America is able to take full advantage of the 1 card mill, by using it for Tombstalker fodder, but we have a similar use for the graveyard if we set it up to flip one of our lands. It also has the marginal effect of being a combat trick by adding lands or missing card types to pump our creatures.

[nitewolf9]

guys how do we deal with mono black with tons of removal ? I played them with twice this FNM and I cant keep up with their removal. Are mono colored decks a bad match ups because we can't use our wastelands and stifles? thanks

Mono Black is probably one of NH's worst matchups. Luckily it is not a very popular deck in legacy. If you see this deck a lot locally you might want to consider running some kind of hoser, like Compost, in your board. Planeswalkers also help that matchup.

[jrsthethird]

guys how do we deal with mono black with tons of removal ? I played them with twice this FNM and I cant keep up with their removal. Are mono colored decks a bad match ups because we can't use our wastelands and stifles? thanks

Generally, yes. Stifles can be useful against mono-black because they can counter their Gatekeeper triggers and Wastelands, and maybe some others I can't remember.

The big problem cards in mono-black are Bob and Bitterblossom. Bitterblossom gives them infinite chump blockers, and we have no way to remove it except for EE on 2. However, if we can get it into the graveyard it's great since it gives +2/+2 to Goyf. Bob sucks because it usually comes down to who can topdeck the best, so you need to cut them off of their main draw source.

Mono-R Goblins and Elves are bad matchups because we just can't keep up with their creature hordes. Mono-U fish is a little better, since Wastelands can take out Mutavaults and we can Stifle Vial activations. As long as they can't attack with Lord of Atlantis on the battlefield we can keep up with them.

[routlaw]

Regarding Hierarch-I've played a LOT of New Horizons and a Noble Hierarch based tempo list (the one mossivo1986 runs a thread for). I've run lists that are in between both decks. You can run Noble and Stifle in the same deck (heck, look at Caleb's Madness list from the GP, you can even top8 in doing so).

Look at it this way:

A) Your opener has stifle, but no Hierarch. You are in a good position to bag a fetchland. Shit-eating grin when doing so optional-but recommended!
B) Your opener has Hierarch, but no stifle. You are in a good position to be able to out tempo the opponent and run away with the game, especially if you get an early wasteland or daze.
C) Your opener has both. You play Hierarch. You are still in position B) , which, as mentioned puts you in a good position to run away with the game. If you stifle a fetch later (because they held onto it for "full value" brainstorm or what not), boom, the hand is likely going to be a blowout. At the very worst they play around Stifle, disrupting their gameplan, and you pitch it to force later, which is effectively free card advantage since they spent all that time playing around Stifle and you had to have a blue card to pitch to force anyway. You can also wind up winning a game by bagging a use trigger on something like EE or Pernicious Deed, or using the stifle later to obliterate combo.

There are a series of extremely powerful set of tempo interactions between Hierarch, Daze, Wasteland, and Knight of the Reliquary that are immediately evident when playing them in the same deck. Please play it before dismissing it as not being a Legacy-quality tempo package.


guys how do we deal with mono black with tons of removal ? I played them with twice this FNM and I cant keep up with their removal. Are mono colored decks a bad match ups because we can't use our wastelands and stifles? thanks

This is never a fun matchup. Save your stifles for kicked Gatekeeper of malakir ETB triggers,use your forces against removal. If you are really worried about this deck, play Worm Harvest or two in the board and make him cry (this card in general is good against board control decks). Boarding in any creatures in your sideboard, no matter what they may do, also helps.

edit: Planeswalkers work too!

[CaptShetz]

Ugh... cat keeps stepping on keyboard, sending me back to the last page I visited on my browser and wiping my reply. Gah, stupid Source forum with no memory of my reply!

So, keeping it short because I hate typing things three times.

Anyway, thanks for comments and suggestions. GenCon was kinda a blowout, going 4-2 in Legacy prelim and 2-2 drop in the Championship after losing to ANT round 1 and a teammate round 4.

The deck still did pretty well, pretty much sold on swapping plains for karakas, but keeping forest and island.

Sold on swapping Rhox War Monk for VClique, but fitting another RWM in sb. Still not convinced on Terravore, seems terra-ble. Double green being harder to get than double blue, gy hate, blah blah you've heard it before. Horizon Canopy also seems bad - not an island, can't be fetched, extra pain vs zoo and not worth it. Manabase seems fine even with 4 hierarch, not going lower than 21 land already mulliganing a lot of one and zero landers. Canopy just seems worse than the extra fetches, but especially so in my build with JtMS.

Noble Hierarch is still the boss. Stifle would get to shine if Spell Pierce wasn't so freaking awesome. Wasteland still fine by itself, especially with KotR.

Only time I ever wanted EE was vs Merfolk.

[jrsthethird]

Ugh... cat keeps stepping on keyboard, sending me back to the last page I visited on my browser and wiping my reply. Gah, stupid Source forum with no memory of my reply!

So, keeping it short because I hate typing things three times.

Anyway, thanks for comments and suggestions. GenCon was kinda a blowout, going 4-2 in Legacy prelim and 2-2 drop in the Championship after losing to ANT round 1 and a teammate round 4.

The deck still did pretty well, pretty much sold on swapping plains for karakas, but keeping forest and island.

Sold on swapping Rhox War Monk for VClique, but fitting another RWM in sb. Still not convinced on Terravore, seems terra-ble. Double green being harder to get than double blue, gy hate, blah blah you've heard it before. Horizon Canopy also seems bad - not an island, can't be fetched, extra pain vs zoo and not worth it. Manabase seems fine even with 4 hierarch, not going lower than 21 land already mulliganing a lot of one and zero landers. Canopy just seems worse than the extra fetches, but especially so in my build with JtMS.

Noble Hierarch is still the boss. Stifle would get to shine if Spell Pierce wasn't so freaking awesome. Wasteland still fine by itself, especially with KotR.

Only time I ever wanted EE was vs Merfolk.

No offense dude but you are in the wrong thread. You're running Bant Aggro with KOTR/Wasteland, not NH. You're going to get better feedback in that thread, since your deck has a completely different focus, and you're pretty much saying that 4 or so cards in the list are bad. Have you even tried Dave Price's list from the Philly 5K, which I assume is assumed as the standard list? Hopefully you can play with that list and realize how different the decks play, despite sharing quite a few cards.

Here's the thread for Bant Aggro: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059-[Deck]-Bant-Aggro-and-Pro-Bant

[tyleredw]

I was at GenCon last weekend, and played New Horizons in one of the prelims for the Legacy World Championships and split in the finals, as well as Top 4'ing in the World Championships itself. I ran the following list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest

SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Rhox War Monk
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Worm Harvest
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives


I'll get around to writing up a report about both events sometime soon.

[jrsthethird]

Congrats Tyler. Did you miss Crucible at all?

[practical joke]

I don't play crucible as well, I never really miss it.

Anyways I have a small question: How often did you use the EE mainboard? I run a similar list with 1 forest less ( savannah), a single land less (fetch) and play 3 spell pierce mainboard. I never missed the EE except vs zoo once. ( on the draw and he emptied his hand in 3 turns)

[jrsthethird]

I always find a way to use EE, even if it just blows up my opponent's Goyf. It's our only maindeck out to resolved noncreature permanents, and there are a lot of cards that will be a huge thorn in the side if we can't remove them (Sylvan Library, Counterbalance, Ensnaring Bridge, whatever).

Are you not running a basic Forest? How often does one of your guys get Pathed? The amount of tempo you lose by not having a basic when that happens seems really significant.

[jrsthethird]

CaptShetz, I hadn't realized that there was a thread on here more closely resembling your deck. It's called UGw Tempo:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17600-[Deck]-UGw-Tempo&highlight=ugw+tempo

There's a huge argument in the first page about whether it's really a tempo deck or not (as well as comparisons to NH), but you know where I stand on that. For your own sake, it would be best to discuss your list in that thread instead of this one.

[practical joke]

I always find a way to use EE, even if it just blows up my opponent's Goyf. It's our only maindeck out to resolved noncreature permanents, and there are a lot of cards that will be a huge thorn in the side if we can't remove them (Sylvan Library, Counterbalance, Ensnaring Bridge, whatever).

Are you not running a basic Forest? How often does one of your guys get Pathed? The amount of tempo you lose by not having a basic when that happens seems really significant.

never, they get stp'd or not. Very rarily they catch a succesfull pte, since I run spell pierce instead of EE, even if they do catch a pte, you don't win or lose with that additional forest. since you already have 3-5 lands when you play something, you probably don't even want more lands.
With the abbility to make an opponent landlight makes spell pierce shine against silly things like pte

[JCrawl85]

guys how do we deal with mono black with tons of removal ? I played them with twice this FNM and I cant keep up with their removal. Are mono colored decks a bad match ups because we can't use our wastelands and stifles? thanks

Try Leyline of Sanctity. It shuts down all their discard, as well as Edicts. Also completely wrecks combo.

[mchainmail]

Try Leyline of Sanctity. It shuts down all their discard, as well as Edicts. Also completely wrecks combo.

Not completely wrecks combo. You're still an awkwardly slow control deck that gives them at least 4 turns to set up before they even have to begin to care about their life totals. And typically, you have 4 Force of Will as the only hard permission.

It is really good though, i'll give you that.

[Deady]

Noble Hierarch gives you early game tempo by putting yourself 1 mana ahead of your opponent (or by baiting a counter or removal spell).
Stifle gives you early game tempo by putting your opponent 1 mana behind you.

These plans don't work well in unison; in general, both cards are most powerful when played turn 1, and their effectiveness drops every turn thereafter

I personally wouldn't run them both in the same build as well...Stifle might be awesome in New Horizons and perhaps he's the better choice, but Hierarch is clearly better in some other decks. It totally depends on the focus and strategy of the deck. I don't fully agree that their effectiveness drops soon after turn 1; in the right deck, Hierarch remains to be powerful because of her exalted ability, which is always useful if you're playing a more creature heavy list and especially if you're playing more creatures with exalted like Qasali, just like in UGW Tempo for instance. She fills more than one role in certain decks.

Now, back to New Horizons.

[Jayzonious]

I have a question about a meta call. One of the local card shops I play at has a slow changing under developed meta. Most of the meta consists of Goblins and Zoo, with a few Merfolk, and random control and rock type decks. Many decks aren't 100% finished. Is New Horizons a smart choice for a meta like this, or would there be a different arch type that would be better fit to perform well?

[jrsthethird]

With sufficient testing, you should probably beat the control and rock builds, using a standard list like Dave Price's from SCG Philly. Zoo is about even, it's more about player skill and quality of draws than archetypes in general.

The Goblins/Merfolk matchups are different depending on whether they have a splash color or not. Obviously, with a strong mana denial strategy, decks with splash colors are easier matchups because, although they get better cards post board (like Perish), we can just shut them off of their splash color and leave them with dead cards. Nothing feels better than seeing a Goblins player tutor up a Warren Weirding and shutting them off B so they can't cast it.

If there are mostly mono-colored Fish/Gobs, and they make up a large percentage of the meta, you can try a sideboard with heavy hate, like:

2-3 Condemn
2-3 Dueling Grounds/Ghostly Prison

Path is bad if you want help in these matchups because you advance their mana and they run a lot of basics.

New Horizons is a deck that can shine in any metagame, but as with most Bant decks, you need to be decent with the deck and know the format to actually succeed with it.

But for your meta, it seems like Saito's Ub Fish deck from GP: Columbus would also be a good fit. Fish seems just as good against control and rock decks, and the board is suited to be great against Zoo and Goblins.

[talon7331]

. Zoo is about even, it's more about player skill and quality of draws than archetypes in general.

No. Zoo is a good matchup for NH. The only way they beat us is when they hit 2+ 1 drops, AND we don't find EE, AND they get some key removal or a KoTR to keep them in it.

To answer your question, this is an OK choice in that meta, but consider playing an additional EE main, and if there is 60% or more aggro, running a Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale MD to combat the swarms is good, or even in the SB if there is slightly less.

[Jayzonious]

Does Maze of Ith have a place in this deck? It seems like a strong possibility.

Searchable with KoR, and it allows KoR to attack, deal dmg, untap, block, and then tap search after blocking. It can also give Tarmogoyf/Terravore vigilance, or simply use it to defend against an opposing creature.

Thoughts?

[jrsthethird]

Ok, I thought Zoo was favorable, and then I started testing against Ryan. :rolleyes:

I've considered Maze as a SB card, but I'm worried that it might be a little too cute. I didn't really test it though.

[Tammit67]

Ok, I thought Zoo was favorable, and then I started testing against Ryan. :rolleyes:

I've considered Maze as a SB card, but I'm worried that it might be a little too cute. I didn't really test it though.

Hold those brainstorms until they start burning a hole in your hand. But seriously.

[jrsthethird]

I'm beginning to do that more.

[mchainmail]

I'm beginning to do that more.


Do it more. Seriously. Brainstorm reads "play this only when you control a fetchland or need to hit a card to not lose the game."

[Jayzonious]

I've considered Maze as a SB card, but I'm worried that it might be a little too cute. I didn't really test it though.

I tested it and it seemed good, I just dropped a Ponder for it. If it's not on the board and they swing 2+ creatures into an active Knight trying to get the last bit of damage through, you can usually surprise them with it and swing the board in your favor.

[sclabman]

Top 1/2 Split with this list at Knightware.

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Terravore

4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Engineered Explosives

4x Wasteland
4x Horizon Canopy
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Windswept Heath
1x Flooded Strand
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
1x Forest

SB
4x Krosan Grip
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Firespout
1x Volcanic Island
4x Tormod's Crypt
2x Spell Pierce


I was trying out the Firespout sb plan after some success testing it online in MWS. Although I did sideboard it in for some matches, I never drew a Firespout the entire tournament. I would probably replace it with another Engineered Explosives and maybe Meddling Mage.

Round 1 loss 0-2 to Dragon Stompy. The moon effects are the sole thing that killed me both games.
Round 2 win 2-0 to Countertop Progenitus. This was an easy match against not the most skilled opponent.
Round 3 win 2-0 to some kind of Eva Green colored deck. Easy rounds. He was mana-screwed both games and my further mana-denial didn't help him out.
Round 4 win 2-1 to Zoo. Game one he drops several one-drops and overwhelms me. Games 2 and 3 he's mana screwed and doesn't do much.
Round 5 win 2-1 to New Horizons - game two went for very long due to both of us sideboarding in grave-hate. I ended up losing to a play mistake. Game three I swap out my grave hate for Grips after i notice he doesn't sideboard and I win.
Round 6 draw into top 8

Top 8 match one vs. Rgbw Aggro Loam. G1 I lose after a long battle. G2 I win after a long battle. G3 I win fairly quickly. These games were exhausting and I don't remember much.
Top 8 match two vs. Ub Merfolk. G1 He overwhelms me with a LoA and Reejerey. G2 I beat him with a Goyf and Vendilion Clique. G3 I draw all four goyfs and they crash into two small Coralhelms and Cursecatchers while he has no lands on board and a lonely vial with no 'Folk in hand to put out.

Vendilion Clique is incredible in this deck. It breaks open the mirror and helps against so many different decks. I would even consider going to three.

[jrsthethird]

If you're running Clique I strongly suggest replacing a Canopy with a Karakas. Emrakul shenanigans are getting more prevalent, so it gives you a nice out while providing nasty tricks with Clique.

[APodeschwa]

how about running stoneforge mystic, he normally wins u the merfolk MU.

[jrsthethird]

Why do you need equipment when your dudes are usually 7/7 or bigger? Play a different deck if you want Stoneforge Mystic.

Merfolk is not a bad matchup as long as they don't spew Lords all over your face by turn 4. If they try to mana-deny you with Wasteland, it works in your favor, and your Wastelands are great against Mutavault. The UB splash version is particularly good for us because our Stifles and Wastelands can shut them off of colored mana, making them rely on Aether Vial to get anywhere. They board in Perish, who cares if they don't get :2::b: all game? Submerge is the only SB card you need to watch out for.

Post board Merfolk gets better, as long as you can play around Submerge. We get extra spot removal, Dispel/Spell Pierce to counter their removal/Vials/Standstills, extra EEs, and War Monks.

I played 3 matches against Merfolk when I top 8'd the last Vestal tournament and won them all. Just play tight and you won't have a problem.

[sclabman]

I agree, equipment would not be good for this deck. In my games against Merfolk that I won he was either denied mana or overwhelmed with much larger creatures. They need a relatively good draw and we need a mediocre one in order for us to lose. Of course this changes with the Mono-blue lists, with fetches/non-basics being gone we lose our opportunities for disrupting the opponent.

I considered Llawan as a sb card for Merfolk, but by the time you get to four mana if you aren't winning then you are usually about to be dead. Still, it's something. Maybe Condemn or Path as additional removal. If you want to run Firespout, run it off of a Taiga, as our fetches all hit green but only half hit blue. Either that or switch around the fetches.

[keys]

I think Propaganda or Dueling Grounds could be better than sweepers at holding off enemy swarms, especially against Goblins and Merfolk because it doesn't hurt your manabase. Propaganda also works great against Zoo if you can stifle/waste a couple of their lands.

[jrsthethird]

I tried Dueling Grounds but I was never happy to see it. Maybe in an Elves-heavy meta but that's it. I've been using 2x Condemn in my board and it's worked out great against any aggro decks. Path isn't good, since the decks that you want it run a lot of basics (except the mirror) and it's counterintuitive to our fundamental strategy of mana denial.

[practical joke]

That is not completely true.

Against some matches, you cannot win by mana-denial.
i.e. goblins. you don't win that by mana denial since that is impossible. The dutch lists I play against are mono-red and only play 4 wasteland.
You want the additional removal just to keep the game going, removing their things eot so you can play a goyf in your turn.

That additional land might be a nasty thing to give, but against decks like goblins, you aren't really thinking about winning through mana-denial.
You don't use stifle to set them back a land, you use stifle to keep their speed low. Like stifling a vial's trigger or counter, stifling the ringleader or matron or maybe even the gempalm. You are a tempo-deck not a land-denail deck, tempo can be created by different ways. One of them is land-denial. One of the other ones is disrupting their game-plan by countering essential cards, stifling essential triggers setting them back a full turn. (stifling a vial activation could do this already.)

[jrsthethird]

True, I forgot about mono-R goblins. Most people I see run the black splash, so it's easier to deny them mana. It's funny when they Matron for Warren Weirding and then you kill their Badlands so they can't cast it. Dueling Grounds seems great against mono-R Goblins too.

[mchainmail]

Why do you need equipment when your dudes are usually 7/7 or bigger? Play a different deck if you want Stoneforge Mystic.

Merfolk is not a bad matchup as long as they don't spew Lords all over your face by turn 4. If they try to mana-deny you with Wasteland, it works in your favor, and your Wastelands are great against Mutavault. The UB splash version is particularly good for us because our Stifles and Wastelands can shut them off of colored mana, making them rely on Aether Vial to get anywhere. They board in Perish, who cares if they don't get :2::b: all game? Submerge is the only SB card you need to watch out for.

Post board Merfolk gets better, as long as you can play around Submerge. We get extra spot removal, Dispel/Spell Pierce to counter their removal/Vials/Standstills, extra EEs, and War Monks.

I played 3 matches against Merfolk when I top 8'd the last Vestal tournament and won them all. Just play tight and you won't have a problem.

Remember a lot of them are playing Deathmark over Perish, so :b: is far easier to hit.

[jrsthethird]

Did not know that.

[practical joke]

Same thing, but I wouldn't count on the majority doing that, since offcourse, they copy everything from saito.

One of the reasons why merfolk was packing those perishes are multiple goyfs and progenitus after a resolved NO
Since there are only a limited ammount of scary white creatures. (blazing archon is probably the only one, since knight of the reliquary is still green), I would rather play that perish/nature's ruin instead of the single target removal like deathmark. because everything that can be deathmarked could also be taken with a threads of disloyalty or sower of temptation.

My bet would be that the majority plays perish

[sigfig8]

Is there a spot in New Horizons for the new spoiled Leonin Arbiter?

1W
2/2 Creature-Cat Cleric
Players can't search libraries. Any player may pay 2 for that player to ignore this effect until end of turn.

I'm envisioning a scenario where you play stifles game 1 and then side those out for 4x Leonin Arbiter game 2. Then when your opponent plays around stifle by not fetching early on, you drop this guy and the hilarity ensues! But...I suppose they could fetch in response. That's not so cool.

It does suck that it stops you from fetching too but if you play this turn 2 you already have 2 mana to enable future fetches. Maybe this guy isn't so good after all. :-(

[jrsthethird]

It's an option, it makes KOTR awkward, but depending on the timing Arbiter + Stifle can be VERY taxing for your opponent; if they have to commit 2 mana to pay for arbiter prior to fetching, and then you get them with Stifle.

If you run him you need to cut the number of fetches.

I'm going to try him out in a list and see where it goes (although it might cease to really be considered NH anymore). I really like him.

[JonBarber]

I don't think he fits with the deck at all. Hell, I could see people siding it in against NH. KOTR is insane and shutting him off is very bad news.

[jrsthethird]

Yeah, that was the other thing I considered. My initial reasoning was, "Well, by the time I cast Knight and be able to activate him, I'll have 4 lands and hopefully my opponent will have only 1. Then I can afford to pay 2 to activate Knight if it gets me a Wasteland."

I haven't tried him yet but it doesn't seem worth it in retrospect.

[sigfig8]

Yeah, I should never have brought it up. I wonder, though, if there is a similar build (perhaps not NH) that can combine stifle, wasteland, and this new creature. Either way, doesn't belong in this thread.

[JonBarber]

Yeah, I should never have brought it up. I wonder, though, if there is a similar build (perhaps not NH) that can combine stifle, wasteland, and this new creature. Either way, doesn't belong in this thread.

There is. Its called UW Tempo. And they're prolly jizzing in their pants

[Black Mass]

@JonBarber

No they can't.

It completely screws up their Weathered Wayfarer engine and doesn't really help Stoneforge Mystic either.

[carlitobunz]

How do you suggest we better deal with the rise of survival vengevine lists? Whether madness style or necrotic ooze toolbox? Last week I was crushed by a mono green elf survival list, my mana denial was worthless and he came out so fast with so many vengevines, I didn't have a chance. I'm liking the consideration towards propoganda, I was hoping for something more effective. Maybe Path to exile, and side out the mana denial cards for grips and paths and hope for the best?
This deck is sooo good and i don't think it's positioned well right now.

[Tinefol]

Run some Crypts and 1-2 Bojuka Bogs, which can be tutored.

[carlitobunz]

What's the best way to deal with affinity decks too?? Null rod or Kataki? Where do you find room for a card like that in your board?? Maybe trygon predator but seems too slow...

[cruzron]

sooo... is New Horizons still relevant in today's meta?

[JonBarber]

It has a bad vengevine matchup. Sooo, not really.

[sclabman]

I don't think the Vengevine matchup is bad... Granted I have only done limited testing but as of now I see it as even to slightly favorable. NH's mana denial hurts them a lot, as do the huge creatures.

Here's the list I've been testing. I really really like Taiga/Firespout plan for goblins and other swarm aggro.

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
4x Horizon Canopy
4x Wasteland
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
1x Forest

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Terravore
2x Vendilion Clique

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Stifle
3x Ponder
2x EE
4x Swords

SB
2x Taiga
3x Firespout
3x Krosan Grip
3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Spell Pierce

Spell pierce has been useful against combo and other blue decks, where I've found a need for more power in counter wars and when they need to resolve a certain spell to win like Jace or CB or Natural order.

[PanderAlexander]

I don't think the vengevine survival matchup is bad either, infact maybe favorable. You got swords to take out early birds/hiearch (depends on your opening hand's mana denial capabilities otherwise save for vengevines), and stifle waste to slow their development. If you really want to make the matchup favorable don't forget about spell snare, not only does it get the survival but also their other enablers also like mongrel and aquamoeba (along with the other meta favorites, counterbalance, LoA, GOYF, etc).

David Price played at the Starcitygames Charlotte 5k and it would be interesting to see if he faced survival and how he did against it, we do have a match with him facing Mayer playing Junk:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/20391_Round_3_Kenny_Mayer_vs_David_Price.html

First game both executed their plans perfectly, early disruption and getting rid of opponents threats and it came down to topdeck mode and whoever drew a creature first.

[Koby]

Stifle, Daze, and Snare helps to slow them down.
StP helps to remove VV, and EE helps to kill their support (Noble Hierarch, Survival, Mongrel, Rootwalla)
FoW to straight up stop Survival.

You also run Goyf and KotR, both big guys to stonewall their follow up attacks.

Seems like a slightly better than 50% matchup if played correctly.

[ivanpei]

Anyone tried a stifle-less (mana-openless) build? I'm playing this list right now, keep in mind that I play it like tap-out aggro control:

4 Force
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords
2 EE
4 Noble
4 Tarmo
4 Kotr
2 Terravore
3 Jace TMS

4 Misty
4 Flooded
2 Windswept
3 Trop
2 Tundra
2 Canopy
4 Wasteland

Imo, keeping mana open for stifle has cost me alot of tempo sometimes. I tried addressing it by adding snares/pierces for the 1 mana open strategy, but that didn't gel with my 3 drop creatures. Wasteland + Daze + FOW has been useful enough in terms of disruption. Considering how the format will be slowed by the upcoming survival banning, having more midrangy bombs like Jace, TMS seems to be useful. Anyone have any similar experience with Jace? He's been awesome for me so far.

[Shimi]

@ivanpei: take a look at Bant Aggro topic, I posted a list that go into this direction(waste , big guys, noble but no stifle) may be it could be a better place.

[luckme10]

I don't think the vengevine survival matchup is bad either, infact maybe favorable. You got swords to take out early birds/hiearch (depends on your opening hand's mana denial capabilities otherwise save for vengevines), and stifle waste to slow their development. If you really want to make the matchup favorable don't forget about spell snare, not only does it get the survival but also their other enablers also like mongrel and aquamoeba (along with the other meta favorites, counterbalance, LoA, GOYF, etc).

David Price played at the Starcitygames Charlotte 5k and it would be interesting to see if he faced survival and how he did against it, we do have a match with him facing Mayer playing Junk:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/20391_Round_3_Kenny_Mayer_vs_David_Price.html

First game both executed their plans perfectly, early disruption and getting rid of opponents threats and it came down to topdeck mode and whoever drew a creature first.

This was posted recently http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20629_Too_Much_Information_Legacy_Two_Months_of_Data.html. David Price appears to be 4-1 vs survival. But the author believes New Horizons would possibly thrive in a non-survival metagame.

[sclabman]

I've been doing some testing with replacing Daze with some ratio of Spell Snare/Spell Pierce. Too often do I end up in situations where I play a land, waste something, then Daze and am stuck with a KotR in hand for three full turns. Given the number of times I'm sitting during the opponent's early turns with one mana open, I think SS/SP can help out. Testing has been promising, but sometimes I just miss the good old free counterspell that is Daze.

Nowadays Spell Snare is a house more than ever...

Edit: It appears David Price's list has straight up 4x Spell Pierce in the place of Daze. I guess I'm not that original haha

[Vandalize]

Hey, guys...

Whats your plan to fight some tier-2 decks like Dragon Stompy, who plays 8 moon effects (Blood Moon + Magus)? You only seem to run non-basics. If that mana-base is hit hard, what are your options?

I'm a goblin player, and I know almost nothing about control decks, but isn't it safer to be less vulnerable to wastelands/moon effects? Perhaps adding one or two Life from the Loam should help the deck's mana-base.

[sclabman]

My plan is to dodge them at tournaments, since they're not played as often. It's true, if they resolve a moon effect, it's very difficult to recover.

[Dark Ritual]

Against dragon stompy side in a basic forest or something along with k grips. Hold force for trinisphere, big fat dudes that you can't otherwise deal with via swords, or chalice at 1. K grip is a big part of winning the match, as is EE sometimes. When you're able to land a big dude they should probably lose. And their card disadvantage cards are quite taxing so force is almost never card disadvantage which is nice. Spell pierce is quite good against them when they try to lay down lock pieces so run it as well. Only problem in this match is if you lose the die roll they will only be dead to FoW and if you don't have FoW for chalice on 1 it is generally bad news for you depending on your build and whether you have an EE or not. Thankfully they don't run wasteland so trinisphere is only a softlock once you get to 3 mana you can k grip it or what have you and play around it.

[freakish777]

2010 Worlds T8 Side event 2nd place deck:


Main Deck
60 cards

1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
23 lands


4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
14 creatures

4 Brainstorm
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
23 other spells

Sideboard
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Extirpate
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Nature's Claim
3 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge


Looks promising. I haven't liked 'Vore in this deck, or EE in the main. Maindeck utility like Bojuka Bog and Karakas seem like they're specific hate for Survival and Emrakul specifically (replacing 2 Canopies). Clique + Heirarch + Jace seems fantastic. One downside is the lack of Daze in this list.