Vampire, the masquerade.

[zabuza]

I was trying to develop a deck in wich vampire hexmage and dark depths could fit in perfectly and thinking about the awesome sinergy the hexmage have with other nice vampire cards so i developed the following deck, Vampire The Masquerade.

5 swamps
2 bloodstained mire
2 verdant catacombs
2 polluted delta
2 Marsh flats
1 bayou
1 scubland
2 volrath´s stronghold
3 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
4 Dark depths
----24 lands

4 vampire hexmage
4 gatekeeper of malakir
4 vampire nighthawk
4 fleshbag marauder
4 vampire nocturnus
----20 creatures

4 Engineered explosives
4 Dark ritual
4 grim discovery
4 beseech the queen
---15 other spells

The deck has lot o f nice sinergies, and all cards have been tested.
I´ve chosen vampires way instead of tarmogoyfs or tombstalker because graveyard hate damages both strategies while nocturnus and family and inmune to it.

With grim discovery you can recoup all the combo pieces, fetchs to replay them (serching B or color iff needed for explosives) or the fleshbag/malakir to kill opponent creatures.

Volraths are there for the same purpose too.

I´ve thought on including a singleton of life from the loam to recover depths or stronhold if needed but i think that it could be overkill.

When Nocturnus arrives the oppoenent usually only have a couple of turns, as much, to react or die. Marit lage kills on one strike.

Couples of fetches are there because pithing and extripate an we only need black mana to play (they are converted with urborg too so you don´t have to crack them while yo don´t need to) and sometimes any color for explosives.

Fetchs are useful too to suffle when first card of the deck is not black.

NIGHTHAWK is a removal/evasive critter that is the best friend of nocturnus. You can recover life while beating in the air, kill bigger creatures and dodges CB.

Fleshbag is a house. You can recover this dude lot of times and if you have stronghold and this guy you have an abyss for the opponent only.

Beseech the queen searches any card of the deck 8combo, etc in the first turns and utilities later) and is the only tutor disponible.


Any ideas, thoughts?

[EssKay]

I ran a similar list at a Legacy event at PT Austin:

4 Hexmage
4 Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper
4 Lacerator
4 Confidant
4 Tombstalker

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Dark Ritual
2 Top
2 Grim Discovery

12 Swamp
4 Bayou (for SB Grips)
4 Dark Depths

I didn't really do that well, partially because I'm bad at Magic, and games that I didn't pull the combo it just wasn't explosive enough to overcome lots of spot removal. I'm going to test it with fetches (only have a few at this point) and maybe lotus petals to help power out Tombstalker faster.

I'm more interested in having the combo in a deck as an alternate win condition as opposed to building something around it.

[zabuza]

The deck can be tuned to incorpore lot of new options. If you wish you can include painter-grindstone because sinergy between painter and nocturnus and because ritual makes it come into play very fast. Another suitable option is including Iona, shield of emeria with painter and reanimate to combo out in another way etc.

Because it have grim discoverys and creatures that cause benefits when comes into play i think deck is good enough to be played. It has answers for everything and several ways to win (combo, aggro,etc).

the only thing i would like to have MD is a massive removal besides of explosives in order to gain more card advantage. I was thinking on Crypt Rats because it can deal lot of damage to opponent and so but i would like wizards to print a vampire with those caracteristics in new sets.

Any idea or suggestion to the deck?

[Maveric78f]

Given Vampire Nocturnus, I would not play engineered explosives, but thoughtseize. Dark ritual as your only chance to have a turn 1 play seems also very bad. I'd play 3 cabal therapy and 1 tops. 4 Beesech the Queen seems a lot in a deck with no singleton, I would play 1 or 2 less for more tops (which are awesome for the combo and for Nocturnus). I would also definitely play 4*Bloodghast, which is awesome with marauder and cabal therapy. In the end the deck I'd play would looks like this. Grim Discovery is more cute than good in a deck with no wasteland.
7 swamps
2 bloodstained mire
2 verdant catacombs
2 polluted delta
2 Marsh flats
2 volrath´s stronghold
2 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
2 Dark depths
----21 lands

4 vampire hexmage
4 gatekeeper of malakir
4 vampire nighthawk
3 fleshbag marauder
4 vampire nocturnus
4 Bloodghast
----23 creatures

3 Tops
4 Thoughtseizes
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Grim Discovery
3 Beseech the queen
---16 other spells

Top enables you to reduce the number of lands. The combo is just here for the oops I win effect but the main plain is probably to hit with 4/2 flying haste bloodghast every turn. Note that sometimes, you may want to target yourself with therapies for Bloodghasts.

[zabuza]

Bloodghast is a creature i would like to fit into the deck but is not easy. I´m thinking on putting a couple of them over there but not sure yet.


I´ve tested tops and they are not good enough for the deck because three main reasons.
1. I don´t want to waste mana and tempo on looking with top because this mana must be used for aggro route or for combo. On paper tops looks awesome but on the play it slows you down a lot. This is an aggro combo deck, not control so top slows us and it´s not good.
2. Top is colorless so has no sinergy with nocturnus. It helps you to rearrange the cards for 1 but is not as good as you could think.
3. Having lot of fetches in the deck helps ou to shuffle if first card is not black for nocturnus, so top is not needed here.

At the begining deck plays wastelands but there were lot of manascrew because there were lot of colorless land so i had to remove them. I´m happy with it because nowdays wastelands hve lost lot of their power. If you know how to play you can avoid wasteland efect with fetches and basics.


Cabal therapies are a good adition, i´ve thougt on them but now you suggest them i´ll give them a try and how they work here.

More ideas, please?

[Maveric78f]

2. Top is colorless so has no sinergy with nocturnus. It helps you to rearrange the cards for 1 but is not as good as you could think.
You are wrong sir.

[zabuza]

Excuse me, but my english is not soo god and i´ve explained in a wrong way. Top "in table" has sinergy with nocturnus. Top "IN THE LIBRARY" has not sinergy with nocturnus (because it colorless), but as i told you before the deck doesn´t like to pay 1 each time for rearrange cards. Because of that, although top in table looks good in paper is not as good as you can think on the play.

Sorry for the bad explanation. More ideas?

[EssKay]

Meh, I find that having extra mana around to use Top is not a big deal, since everything is pretty low CMC. Also, since your list has no Confidant's, Top can really help to keep you drawing something other than land.

I find the biggest issue with my build is that it tends to go nuts the first few turns, then fizzle pretty hard if I don't have a Bob or a Top out. With either (preferably both) of those in play though, it can steamroll over decks without mass removal.

[georgjorge]

I was trying to develop a deck in wich vampire hexmage and dark depths could fit in perfectly and thinking about the awesome sinergy the hexmage have with other nice vampire cards


Which synergies would that be ? Except for Nocturnus, it doesn't matter if your creatures are Vampires are not, and 4 cards are not enough to base a deck around.

I think fitting Hexmage + Depths into black aggro-control is a viable strategy, but I probably wouldn't throw a Vampire theme that hardly offers any benefits into the mix.

[zabuza]

well some of the sinergys are:

Recover combo parts with grim (You can combo and recombo all times you need (grim and life from the loam or crucible assures you it), but usually grim is enough to do it)
Recover creature removal (fleshbag, malakir) with grim, stronholdg
Make all your dudes into flying monsters with nocturnus
Nocturnus always active (fetch)
Hexmage and gatekkeper are vampires so you are gaining creature removal and combo with a strong aggro (nocturnus)
Urborg makes all lands swamps (fetches produce mana and you only crack when needed), depths and stronhold too.
Grim recover lands to assure you play at least one land/turn
Beseech always search Any card of your deck.
Nighthawk recovers life, creature removal and evasive dude.

I think you can have an idea of what this deck can offer to you. haven´t you?

[EssKay]

I'm thinking that this combo might fit pretty well in an Eva Green shell. Replace snuff out with gatekeepers, and Nantuko Shade with Hexmage. If I wasn't the last Legacy player to still have no Tarmogoyfs, I would try it out.

[Maveric78f]

Which synergies would that be ? Except for Nocturnus, it doesn't matter if your creatures are Vampires are not, and 4 cards are not enough to base a deck around.

I think fitting Hexmage + Depths into black aggro-control is a viable strategy, but I probably wouldn't throw a Vampire theme that hardly offers any benefits into the mix.

Nocturnus is really impressive. It ends the deck very fast. The only weakness of the deck is to be mono black. It has no solution to enchantments and plague is definitely a problem, appart from that, it's definitely the best black tribal deck I've played. Gatekeeper is impressive, Bloodghast is really a pain in the ass for the opponent, the combo can happen, or not. It'sn ot big deal, really. 75% of my games are won by the vampires, not by Marit Lage. I think I'm going to play only 1 Dark Depth, to be tutored by Beseech. Hexmage is a good creature in itself. All the vampires are incredible creatures in themselves actually. And the Nocturnus kill is really powerful.

[zabuza]

I agree with Maveric78f in almost everything but removal of enchantments and so. MD you have Engineered explosives wich can take care of lot of things (with the singleton of bayou and scrubland). Sideboard i´m playing 4 reverent silence, because of that i´m playing bayou MD you know, search for bayou --> reverent silence --> humility, Plagues and company dissapear ;).

THe combo is awesome too ;)


More ideas to improve the deck?

[georgjorge]

well some of the sinergys are:

Recover combo parts with grim (You can combo and recombo all times you need (grim and life from the loam or crucible assures you it), but usually grim is enough to do it)
Recover creature removal (fleshbag, malakir) with grim, stronholdg
Make all your dudes into flying monsters with nocturnus
Nocturnus always active (fetch)
Hexmage and gatekkeper are vampires so you are gaining creature removal and combo with a strong aggro (nocturnus)
Urborg makes all lands swamps (fetches produce mana and you only crack when needed), depths and stronhold too.
Grim recover lands to assure you play at least one land/turn
Beseech always search Any card of your deck.
Nighthawk recovers life, creature removal and evasive dude.

I think you can have an idea of what this deck can offer to you. haven´t you?

I got all those synergies, but only one of them actually cares about which creature type you play....which is exactly what I meant: The only synergy gained from running Vampires is with Nocturnus, and 4 cards in the deck aren't worth limiting your creature/spell base that much. I would run some non-Vampire creatures and spells which seem better than those you currently run instead of hoping to draw, resolve and keep alive Nocturnus every game.

Also, Stronghold/Grim + Marauder/Gatekeeper seems really slow for a deck running only twenty mana sources and wanting to play Aggro quite often.

[Maveric78f]

Actually, georgjorge, we don't restrict ourselves to the vampire creatures (well, I don't). I found Confidant bad in this deck, because the curve is high. This is not a problem only because it hurts, the main thing is that we rarely empty our hand. Stalker is good in the deck though.

Actually, apart from confidant and stalker the best black creatures are vampires. Moreover they are complementary and they enable to have a very fast kill with Nocturnus. My list up-to-date:

// Lands 21
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
6 [P2] Swamp (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [CS] Dark Depths
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [OD] Cabal Pit

// Creatures 22
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
4 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 [M10] Vampire Nocturnus
2 [FUT] Tombstalker
1 [CS] Garza's Assassin

// Spells 17
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [ZEN] Grim Discovery
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [SHM] Beseech the Queen

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [AT] Hymn to Tourach

As you said Volrath's stronghold is too slow. It's more often a pain than a tool. But I'm happy with wasteland.

[Gibsonmac]

2. Top is colorless so has no sinergy with nocturnus. It helps you to rearrange the cards for 1 but is not as good as you could think.


I think that is about as incorrect a statement as any, top is broken in half, thus banned in extended, and is just awesome in this format, visa vi top is played in a ridiculous amount of decks.

In vamps, it digs to ensure a black card will be on top, is this a sure thing 100% of the time, no, but it is most of the time... thus countertop can't always find the right cc card to stop a spell, but it sure as hell does the job most of the time, and the fact that it isn't a 100% for sure answer does not mean it should be played... countertop is one of the most powerful decks in the format right now, where top plays the same role of getting the proper cards to the top of the deck.

[Gibsonmac]

Actually, georgjorge, we don't restrict ourselves to the vampire creatures (well, I don't). I found Confidant bad in this deck, because the curve is high. This is not a problem only because it hurts, the main thing is that we rarely empty our hand. Stalker is good in the deck though.

Actually, apart from confidant and stalker the best black creatures are vampires. Moreover they are complementary and they enable to have a very fast kill with Nocturnus. My list up-to-date:

// Lands 21
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
6 [P2] Swamp (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [CS] Dark Depths
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [OD] Cabal Pit

// Creatures 22
4 [ZEN] Vampire Nighthawk
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
4 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
4 [ZEN] Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 [M10] Vampire Nocturnus
2 [FUT] Tombstalker
1 [CS] Garza's Assassin

// Spells 17
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [ZEN] Grim Discovery
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [SHM] Beseech the Queen

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [6E] Perish
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [AT] Hymn to Tourach

As you said Volrath's stronghold is too slow. It's more often a pain than a tool. But I'm happy with wasteland.


what about -1 beseech, -1 Garza's Assassin, +2 smother/snuff out, or even a tendrils of corruption... IDK 3 beseech seems a little overkill, and the assassin could be something better.

Maybe some life gain along with nighthawk, I feel like a Sword of light and Shadow would be decent here, equip to nighthawk = StP/PtE/snuff out proof and is out of lightning bolt range, plus gaining 7 when the deathtouch flier connects and recurs a gatekeeper or something, seems really good. so maybe those instead of Jitte, I think it could be solid.

I also think cabal pit and stronghold might be better as more wasteland.

[Maveric78f]

The list I've proposed plays 70 black manas (I counted Beseech and gatekeeper as BBB) and 15 colorless manas (I counted Tombstalker as BB). I almost exclusively need black mana. Garza's Assassin a great card, when your manabase affords you to play it. I'd even like to play 2 or 3 or them, because it comboes with itself when you have several in hand and a way to gain some life (each one recovers the other). I play so much black that I searched the black chroma card which unfortunately appeared to be absolutely awful. Stronghold was bad as a colorless mana producer. I would definitely not replace it with wasteland. Wasteland was ok as a target of Beseech the Queen while targetting Volrath's Stronghold would be stupid since you can generally tutor for another copy. That was my point. Cabal Pit is also a weak option, but it's an option that is not that much costly since it produces black and it can randomly do nice things with Grim Discovery (which is also too often a weak card, but at least it's a mana producer).

[Gibsonmac]

Garza's Assassin a great card, when your manabase affords you to play it. I'd even like to play 2 or 3 or them, because it comboes with itself when you have several in hand and a way to gain some life (each one recovers the other).

yes but you lose half your life rounded up each time, going from 20 to 10 to 5, with 3 uses, then 2 with a fourth use, it seems awful to me against the field of competitive legacy decks that are out there.

And the stronghold (doesn't matter to which type of mana you intend to produce) just seems incredibly underwhelming... what do you usually target that needs recursion, the deck has 21 threats, I suppose its to make sure you keep nocturnus in play, however you're rocking 3 of them and beseech, so in my opinion it's redundantly unneeded.

which is why I suggest wasteland, it is useful against almost every deck, where the pit giving -2/-2 is worthless, what threats does it answer? confidant, sower, thats about it.

snuff out/smother is decent and efficient removal against the field, snuff out is a free spell, yay!.. and smother answers pretty much every threat in legacy, save tombstalker, Rakdos Pit Dragon, Knight of the Reliquary, and Baneslayer, all of which are not that common to run in to.

Just some advice from personal experience. try out sword of light and shadow though, could be huge.

Btw, are you going for a competitive tournament deck, or a fun to play/multiplayer deck? just trying to understand where you are coming from.. in which case some of the advice I offered wouldn't be relevant.
:smile:

[Aggro_zombies]

Excuse me, but my english is not soo god and i´ve explained in a wrong way. Top "in table" has sinergy with nocturnus. Top "IN THE LIBRARY" has not sinergy with nocturnus (because it colorless), but as i told you before the deck doesn´t like to pay 1 each time for rearrange cards. Because of that, although top in table looks good in paper is not as good as you can think on the play.

Sorry for the bad explanation. More ideas?
With that logic, you should probably cut all your lands too as none of them work very well with Vampire Nocturnus.

Seriously though, just be a man and play Top.

[Maveric78f]

yes but you lose half your life rounded up each time, going from 20 to 10 to 5, with 3 uses, then 2 with a fourth use, it seems awful to me against the field of competitive legacy decks that are out there.
Each time I recover it. Not each time I use it. Usually, I don't need to recover it, but I love the ability to do it, even more because I play 6 cards MD that gains me life.


And the stronghold (doesn't matter to which type of mana you intend to produce) just seems incredibly underwhelming... what do you usually target that needs recursion, the deck has 21 threats, I suppose its to make sure you keep nocturnus in play, however you're rocking 3 of them and beseech, so in my opinion it's redundantly unneeded.
I don't care that Nocturnus is in play or not. Nocturnus is not THE kill, it's one kill among other. Most of the time, I win off beating with 2/X by removing all opposition (discard + anticreature).


which is why I suggest wasteland, it is useful against almost every deck, where the pit giving -2/-2 is worthless, what threats does it answer? confidant, sower, thats about it.
Look at my spells, I agree that giving -2/-2 is usually not relevant. But providing %1 is also not relevant. Wasteland is good as 1-of because it can be tutored remove maze/wasteland. The point is that the deck has no mana denial strategy. I will not endanger my mana base for more wastelands.


snuff out/smother is decent and efficient removal against the field, snuff out is a free spell, yay!.. and smother answers pretty much every threat in legacy, save tombstalker, Rakdos Pit Dragon, Knight of the Reliquary, and Baneslayer, all of which are not that common to run in to.
I know the cards you mention. I also know that it removes Knight. Assassin does the same in better.


Just some advice from personal experience. try out sword of light and shadow though, could be huge.
I think it's too expensive to play, however you're right that it can be good as jitte#2. What I liked the most with Jitte was the ability to remove opponent's jittes though.


Btw, are you going for a competitive tournament deck, or a fun to play/multiplayer deck? just trying to understand where you are coming from.. in which case some of the advice I offered wouldn't be relevant.
:smile:
I think it's competitive. I've even already bought the missing cards (i.e. all the vampires and the dark depths, just missing Urborg right now, because I've realised only after that it was missing).

[zabuza]

First of all some nice interesting points.



I also think cabal pit and stronghold might be better as more wasteland.

The deck is lot of black mana intensive so the best option is to play all black mana you could. Beside of that this deck is not going to try the mana-denial strategy so wastelands are not as usefull here as they could be in other decks. My opinion on this subject is not playing wastelands at all, but you can do what you want.

The stronghold is not fast at all but it saves me in some matches when the opponent topdeck a monster and i can replay fleshbag ftw.


snuff out/smother is decent and efficient removal against the field, snuff out is a free spell, yay!.. and smother answers pretty much every threat in legacy, save tombstalker, Rakdos Pit Dragon, Knight of the Reliquary, and Baneslayer, all of which are not that common to run in to.
I know the cards you mention.

I also know that it removes Knight. Assassin does the same in better.


I know it too :wink: :wink:


With that logic, you should probably cut all your lands too as none of them work very well with Vampire Nocturnus.
Seriously though, just be a man and play Top.

If i could i´shall do it :tongue: :tongue: . Seriusly, i try to minimize the number of non black cards the deck plays because nocturnus and because the black mana dependency of the deck. I can play a couple of tops in the deck but it slows you (test it and find). If i would be playing confidant or CB i´ll play tops for sure but i think they are not neccessary here.


Instead of assassin i would play shriekmaw who is a creature too, dodges CB, can be ecovered with stronghold and does the same job as assasin. I tested them and they were very useful.

Nocturnus is the big brother but you can kill on sevral ways so is not THE KILL but is funny.

Snuff out is good but it´s lot of damage nowdays (in my meta there are lot of naya-burn-goyf-slight-,etc...) so is not the right way to go. I´m toying now with innocent blood which is good enough because killing nacatls, lackeys and so while i don´t have to sacrify or use a bloodghast for it is soo tricky ;)

As Maverik said we don't restrict ourselves to the vampire creatures (well, I don't). I found Confidant bad in this deck, because the curve is high. This is not a problem only because it hurts, the main thing is that we rarely empty our hand. Stalker is good in the deck though.


I don´t like non jitte equipment here because other equips are slooooow when you want to cast them and the benefit is not enough for the inversion.


ideas, thoughts?

[Maveric78f]

I tried also a shell without the Dark Depth combo (-1 dark depth, -4 hexmages, -3 Beseech) but with dark confidant and tarmogoyf. It works well too. Nocturnus plays the role of a finisher, the other vampires are either cabal therapy food (bloodghast and gatekeeper), good jitte wearer (nighthawk and bloodghast) or efficient anti-creature (nighthawk and gatekeeper).

As I splashed green, I also made some room for pulse. As I play 22 creatures (all *4 except Nocturnus*2), I play also 2*Grim Discovery. I kept top in too because it's good with confidant and with Nocturnus in addition to be a good mana fixer.

I've almost said it all. So here's the list:
[quote]
Mana base: 20
4*Verdant catacomb
4*other black fetches
2*Bayou
1*Forest
2*Urborg
7*Swamp

Turn 1: 11
4*Thoughtseize
4*Cabal Therapy (meh as a turn 1)
3*Top

Turn 2: 12
4*Bloodghast
4*Dark Confidant
4*Tarmogoyf

Turn 3: 11
4*Gatekeeper of Malakir
4*Vapire Nighthawk
3*Maelstrom Pulse

Turn 4 and more: 6
2*Jitte of Umezawa
2*Vampire Nocturnus
2*Grim Discovery

The weakness in the curve is definitely the first turn spells but I can't find anything relevant but duress and I don't want too much discard. So finally, I just admitted that I would not play anything on my turn 1 quite regularly. I kept Urborg because it makes my fetches produce black and thus it saves my landalls for later.

[lunar_eternal_blue]

I think Aether Vial would work great in this deck. This is basically the black tribal aggro of legacy. Elves don't need vial, but it is a staple in goblins and merfolk, and I think it would have a similar function here. Vampires are great, Gatekeeper and Nighthawk are amazing, and with the Hexmage combo thrown in I think this could be a very competitive deck. Vial can make this happen. The deck curves out nicely and with vial I think this deck could be nuts. The only card that matters that the creatures are vampires is nocturnus, but +2/+1 flying to all of your creatures is ridiculous. Also, I think there may be more vampires to come in future sets in this block.

[zabuza]

Some time since the post was created. I´ve tested the deck few more (not as much as I wish because work, you know ;) ) But, the more I play it, the more I like it.
Now I´m thinking on playing it on a serious tourney, but I´m not sure of it.

My actual list is the following:

4*Verdant catacomb
4*Marsh Flats
2*Bayou
4*Urborg
4*Dark Depths
5*Swamp
1* Volrath Stronghold
----24 lands

4*Bloodghast
4*Gatekeeper of Malakir
4*Vampire Hexmage
4*Vapire Nighthawk
4*Vampire Nocturnus
----20 creatures


4*Dark Ritual
2*Jitte of Umezawa
4*Grim Discovery
3*Maelstrom Pulse
3*Beseech the queen
----16 Other spells


SDB
4 Ravenous trap (stops ichorid and grave dependant decks)
4 Krosan Grip/ Reverent silence (i suppose i must use grip but the other spell is free and removes the most problematic cards people play like humility and so)
4 Engineered plague.
3 Sadistic sacrament (stops combo ftw)



The problem of the deck is the lack of turn1 Threats, but thinking about it, perhaps the way is forgetting this slot. Who knows?

In the testing I´ve made the deck is good enough to be played in a competitive level because have solutions to everything. In some matches I´ve plaid marit lage 4 times till she finally connect, hit for 35 with nocturnus and his friends, kill with bloodghast as the only creature on the table and so on.

Maindeck , we play lot of removal (4 gatekeeper, 4 hawk(yes, they are removal too ;)), 3 maelstrom and 2 jittes)) and because maelstrom we can destroy any artifact/enchantment we need.

There are several things that I´m considering now.
1. I´m thinking on removing completely beseech from MD. Yes, they tutor almost everything, but the deck is so redundant that i think i could use those slots in better things.
2. I´m trying to find a solution for the removal or anti-combo cards that people plays. I thought on pithing needle (stops wasteland), chalice of the void (at 1 it stops path, swords, chain of vapour, stifle, repeal, sensei, any kind of fast burn and lot of more things). To play effectively chalice for 1 in the first turn we only have dark ritual, but playing ancient tomb (that later is improved with urborg ;) ) to play effectively chalice at 1 on the first turn. With this option I would be solving another of the deck problems that is the lack of turn1 threats.
3.What are the best options to the sideboard? I´m considering:
-Ravenous trap
-Krosan Grip
-Engineered plague
-Engineered explosives
-Reverent Silence
-Duress/Cabal therapy/Thoughtseize. Which one is the best for this deck
-Smother
-Others?????
4. What about splashing to white. White can offer :
-Cheap removal (swords, path,...)
-Cheap artifact/enchantment removal (serenity)
-Vindicate (better than pulse because you can vindicate that wasteland which is avoiding you combo out)
-Zealous persecution (I love this card, you can clean the table of goblins, confidants and lot of */1 while giving all your dudes a boost)


Could anybody help me?

[Iare]

My advice is pretty simple ...
-1 Grim Discovery
-3 Beseech the queen

+4 Thoughtsieze or duress

Edit: 24 lands +4 dark rituals seem like alot maybe drop 2-3 lands for 2-3 cabal therapies too?

[zabuza]

I´m using 24 lands because dark depths can´t count as a land if you haven´t an urborg in play, so really we are playing 20 lands.

About beseech the queen you are right, i´ve removed all of them MD.

About grim discovery i´m not very sold at all with you. I like this card a lot, more than that, A LOT. The reason for that is because this card does everything we want it to do. You can recover all the combo pieces for only 2 mana, you can recover one of your dead guys (ie, gatekeeper) and replay it (gaining more advantage too) and can recover lands (urborg if neccesary or any fetch) so at least you are playing a land for turn till nocturnus can come and end the game ;).

I´m thinking on including 4 therapies or 4 thoughtseizes MD (yeah, i´ll play 61 cards, but it doesn´t matter to me enough), but not sure which is better. I like therapies because they are free with bloodghast, can discard several cards at the same time and has synergy with gatekeeper (gate, therapy, next turn, therapy,grim, gate again), but therapy has the problem of not being very effective at the vry beginning of the game and discarding at random. Another option is tgz, lifeloss is acceptable and discarding the best card on their hand is great, but is not re-playable. What do you think?

Please can you help me?

[Iare]

Thoughtsieze really is the best discard spell to run against aggro control where as duress is better against storm combo. But, with only 4 discard spells you are pretty well auto losing to combo anyway. Barring an early 20/20 that is. So I would go with 4 thoughtsieze and consider finding room for some number of cabal therapy.


Grim discovery is a great card at breaking wars of attrition, problem is it doesn't do anything to allow you to survive to the mid game where it shines. I can't say its a bad card it just seems its inclusion as a 4 of is overkill. You would most likely be better served with more discard; this also has the benefit of lowering your curve and preventing your opponents backbreaking plays allowing you to force yours through. You already have a strong mid-game, but that won't matter if you have already lost or allowed your opponent to do something rotten like drop counter top or chalice at 2.

[zabuza]

What would be your ideal configuration of discard spells? I´ve thought on 4 tgz and 2 terapies, but perhaps could be a 3-3 mix.

Perhaps i could reduce grim dicovery to 3, but till nowdays it never has disturbed me. Always when i´ve drawn it, it has been useful.

What colour would you splash? Green gives us Pulses and krosaan, but white gives us removal (swords, path), vindicate (can destroy lands--> wasteland which stops the combo) and serenity.

More ideas?

[Mystical_Jackass]

- Oona's Prowler
- Bloodghast
- Gatekeeper
- Confidant
- etc.

- Recurring Nightmare
- Cabal Therapy

Good way to abuse confidant and bloodghasts, just keep assaulting your opponents creatures & hand while bringing your creatures back for cheap.

[zabuza]

I´ve played a shop tourney past week with this deck and although i went 1-1-2 I had very good vibrations about the deck. I think it can be competitive if i can improve it a few.

I played against:
Burn --> 1-2
White stax --> 1-1
Ichorid -->2-0
Goblins -->0-2

with:
4*Verdant catacomb
4*Marsh Flats
2*Bayou
4*Urborg
4*Dark Depths
5*Swamp
1* Volrath Stronghold
----24 lands

4*Bloodghast
4*Gatekeeper of Malakir
4*Vampire Hexmage
4*Vapire Nighthawk
4*Vampire Nocturnus
----20 creatures


4*Dark Ritual
2*Jitte of Umezawa
4*Grim Discovery
3*Maelstrom Pulse
3*Beseech the queen
----16 Other spells


I found that althought green is very useful i think white can improve my worst pairings.

I lost against burn and goblins because burn was soooo fast and goblin is soo fast (and doesn´t let my play because his rishadan and hurried guys).

Because of that i´m thinking on using the following list:

4* Verdant catacomb
4* Marsh Flats
2* Polluted Delta
2* Scrubland
3* Urborg
4* Dark Depths
4* Swamp
1* Plains
----24 lands

4*Bloodghast
4*Gatekeeper of Malakir
4*Vampire Hexmage
4*Vapire Nighthawk
4*Vampire Nocturnus
----20 creatures


4* Zealous persecution
1* Jitte of Umezawa
2* Grim Discovery
4* Vindicate
4* Doom Blade
2* Desfigure/innocent blood
----16 Other spells


SDB:
4 Ravenous trap
4 Serenity
3 COP:Red
4 Disenchant



I thinks this build improves the bad pairings while stabilize the deck. I would like to find something better than:

--Disfigure/innocent´s blood: i would like to have an instant black removal for B, but these ones are the best i have found.
--Disenchant: I think there must be something better than this oldie that can deal with artifacts/enchantments. I´ve thought on it and abolish, but not sure yet of none of them.


What do you think about?
Can you help me please?

[Maveric78f]

I played against:
Burn --> 1-2
White stax --> 1-1
Ichorid -->2-0
Goblins -->0-2

SDB:
4 Ravenous trap
4 Serenity
3 COP:Red
4 Disenchant



Do you really think you'll play the same MUs at each tourney ? You basically have nothing against Threshold, against combo, against landstill, against merfolks, against zoo, ...

[zabuza]

No, i don´t think that I´ll be playing against the same kind of decks at each tourney. You can think that my SDB is designed to do that but you are not right here. I´ve introduced in my SDB cards agaisnt MY WORST pairings or to improve those that i think can be more dangerous for me.

Threshold, against combo, against landstill, against merfolks, against zoo, ...

I´m explaining now.

4 Ravenous trap: It´s useful against Ichorid-dredge, some kind combo(reanimator) and even Threshold.

4 Serenity: It´s useful against White Stax, Dragon Stompy, Enchantress, Zur´s, affinity, and lot of other things.

3 COP:Red: it´s useful against zoo, goblins, burn, Boros,.....

4 Disenchant : More versartility against the hardest things.

Think that my deck has more than 16 creature removal MD (Gatekeeper, doom blade, nighthawk, vindicate, zealous and disfigure/blood), so i think i don´t need any more to face against those kinds of decks. Beside of that Zealous has proved that is GREAT against decks with little guys. You can kill goblins, lynx, elves, lavamancers, fanatics, confidant, birds, hierarch, moongoses, feries, fishes and lot of other stuff. You don´t need to have creatures to abuse from this card because being an instant and killing lot of dudes for 2 mana is great.

To combat big guys i´ve blades, gatekeeper, vindicate and nighthawk and so.

COP:Red is good against any kind of red deck, burn, naya, goyfslight, goblins and so.

Serenity cares about that horrible decks like enchantress and white stax so i think they are a must here (if you don´t play them you can´t handle lot of this stuff)

Why do you think i´m saying that i´m always facing the same opponents with the same decks?

[FoolofaTook]

This is what I'm fooling around with, it's mono-black just because I think that's the best place to start with a deck in which many of the spells have :b::b: in the casting cost. It has only Nevinyrral's Disk to handle bad board positions that are not creature-based, which is probably about as good as mono-black can do at this point.

Vampires (19)

4x Vampire Hexmage
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Child of Night
4x Vampire Nighthawk
2x Malakir Bloodwitch
1x Divinity of Pride/Cairn Wanderer/Vampire Nocturnus

Other Win Con (1)

1x Liliana Vess/Tendrils of Agony

Disruption (13)

4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Innocent Blood
2x Nevinyrral's Disk

Equipment (3)

3x Sword of Fire and Ice

Mana

4x Dark Ritual
16x Swamp
2x Dark Depths
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Basically it's a black aggro deck whose saving grace is going to be the life gain built-in to the creatures and possibly ToA as a surprise finisher. There are a couple of ways to go in terms of the overall mana development and speed of play. The first one is the one I listed, with fast mana from Dark Rituals and 3x 5cc flyers as the finishers who can also come out turn 1 with luck and balls.

The other alternative would be to ditch the rituals for Sensei's Divining Tops and ditch the 5cc flyers for Vampire Nocturnus. I can see either method working. The rituals, alongside the 1cc disruption gives the option for a really nasty ToA sometime in the mid game, with the proviso that you'd have to draw it with no way to promote it, so it'd be a random thing.

Sword of Fire and Ice is in to give the deck some draw and to make the Lifelink vamps, especially the nighthawks, nasty. The protection from red and blue is also handy.

The Hexmage/Dark Depths combo is in but light on the depths side, which is what makes sense given that the Hexmages have value on their own but Dark Depths does not.

Lots of discard disruption built in to give the deck a shot against combo and aggro control. All the life gain makes Thoughtseizes easy to play. Duress and Cabal Therapy are in for predictability of draw and to make some very broken openings possible off of dark ritual.

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is in to make Volrath's Stronghold and Dark Depths somewhat less of a drag on mana development. Volrath's is in to give the deck a bit of recoverability in the mid game if the opponent has gotten an edge.

I picked Child of Night over Bloodghast for the lifegain. There's a point at which equipment and lifelink just kind of go over the top and I really wanted to have an excellent chance of seeing that combo in play. There are 8 or 9 creatures with lifelink in the deck depending on what you do with the Divinity of Pride/Cairn Wanderer/Vampire Nocturnus slot. That's enough to promote a bunch of wins where you just trade off with them, flying over head and chump blocking in return with a good chance of getting some life out of the deal either way.

[zabuza]

After toying with the -black-white list of the deck i´m developing a new list which I think it´s more close to the optimal build.
The list is:

4*Verdant catacomb
4*Marsh Flats
2*Bayou
2*Scrubland
3*Urborg
4*Dark Depths
5*Swamp
----24 lands

4*Bloodghast
4*Gatekeeper of Malakir
4*Vampire Hexmage
4*Vapire Nighthawk
4*Vampire Nocturnus
----20 creatures


4*Duress
1*Jitte of Umezawa
4*Doom blade
4*Maelstrom Pulse
3*Echoing Decay
----16 Other spells


SDB
4*Planar void
4*Aegis of honor
4* Krosan Grip
3* Serenity



I think the deck is more stable now, but there are several things that i still don´t like.

*Bloodghast is the waekest vampire on the deck. I hope WOTC prints any other good vampire to replace it.

*Lack of cc1 cost. I´m playing only 4 duress but i think i could play tgz or cabal therapy. I´m thinking on a mix of them.

I´m playing 16 removal spells (gatekeeper, malestrom, doom blade and echoing decay). It could be too much, but i´m not sure about it.

Can you help me to improve the deck?

[caiomarcos]

I've played the whole day on MWS with the following list:

3 Dark Depths
5 Swamp
4 Scrubland
10 Fetchs
----22 lands

4 Dark Ritual
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
----15 spells

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Malakir Gatekeeper
4 Child of Night
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Bloodghast
3 Vampire Nocturnus
----23 creatures

I was quite impressed, with good performances all day long.

Some choices I made:

23 creatures - with a high creature count you can apply a lot of pressure early on rushing with Children, Bloodghasts and Hexmages or sticking only one or two threats and abusing Jitte or Nocturnus later on, that's why the 3 Jittes and 3 Nocturnus. Nighthawk is amazingly good. I think Bloodghasts are the weaker ones, maybe even more than Child of Night since the children are great blockers, but I wouldn't cut them because they carry Jitte and get huge under Nocturnus, so in order to have this much creatures in the deck, they must be played.

Dark Ritual - Can be useful in a ton of different ways, sneaking early Nighthawks or Nocturnus in play, getting an early active Jitte, helping you play a bunch of threats by turn 3 or just being awesome when mana screwed. I even won a game where my late game Dark Rituals helped taking counters off Dark Depths. So cool!

White splash - I just think Vindicate is that busted. Maybe swords is even more. I don't believe green can add to the deck as much as those two cards can. The only problem of the splash, any color, is getting color screwed. It's really easy for the opponent to keep you off your splash color. What can be done here?

No Bloodwitch - Really, 5 mana, in legacy? Not worth it. Nocturnus and Jitte are the most expensive cards in the deck (and I feel that 6 of them is a bit too much already), and at 4 casting cost they put you so much more close to victory than Bloodwitch.

3 Dark Depths - It is a very common path to victory, but still quite vulnerable. Pacifism-like effects, Swords, Stifle, bounce etc all foil the plan and trade 1 for 2+land drop, not cool. But you do want to see one during the game, so 3 is the number.

The next thing I want to try is to go with less creatures and get some discard maindeck. Maybe loose the 4 Child of Nigh and one Jitte or Nocturnus and fit some numbers of Cabal Therapies/Thoughtseizes.

I was positively surprised. This first rough list put up good fight and won a lot of games against top decks like CB/Top, Merfolk, Loam.decks, Dreadstills, Thresh and so on.

[Wargoos]

The only deck I own in standart (I have to own one, because there is practically just standart goin on in the town I currently study in) is the vampire deck.

Being a tribal kid, I hope this deck can be made playable, since it's one of my favorite tribes. And since wizards is appearantly trying to push this deck, here is some new goody for the deck:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=100183&d=1263532768
The Idea is to port the standart list to legacy and tweak it for the metagame/add some legacy staples.
Here are some thoughts.

Standart Vampires-List (pre wwk):

creature [21]

4 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Malakir Bloodwitch
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Vampire Nocturnus

instant [7]

3 Disfigure
4 Tendrils of Corruption

sorcery [8]

2 Grim Discovery
2 Mind Sludge
4 Sign in Blood

land [24]

4 Marsh Flats
16 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs


Obvious to notice is that Mind Sludge, the bloodwitch and the removal package are to slow and to bad for legacy, so there is room to improve these.
The good rest of creatures are probably all staples, maybe 3-offs after some serious tweaking.

Vampires, mono-b Legacy

creature [19]

2 Bloodghast
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Vampire Nocturnus
2 Tombstalker

instant [6]

4 Snuff Out
4 Dark Ritual

sorcery [5]

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Grim Discovery

Artifact [2]

2 Umezawa's Jitte


land [24]

3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
5 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs

The mono-b build is pretty straight-forward.
Dark Ritual and Snuff-Out allow ridicioulos plays.
The synergy betweend grim discovery-urborg-wasteland and dark depths is obvious.
After WWK, we have to find some space for the noble, though.

Vampires B/G
Green offers some new goodies.
1.) We get krosan grip in the side, so we now can deal with ench. and artif.
2.) We get more power. No reason not to splash goyf here.
3.) We get life from the loam.
4.) We get maelstrom pulse.

Vampires B/W
White brings the best removal suite and also offers disenchant effects.
For a more Ale'ish vampire-feeling.
1.) We get disenchant - poor mans grip.
2.) We get the Swords.
3.) We get Vindicate, which is marginaly better than maelstrom pulse.

I guess those are the best color combinations for this deck, as a blue splash seems improbable since we won't get enough blue cards to get force working in here.
Also red has as good as nothing to offer at all since it does not help this deck besides just offering reach for the final touch.

Genaral consensus is that:
- Dark Depths should be in here for a alternative fast win condition.
- Jitte should be played.

However, alot other things are still unclear:
- What about aether vial? Can it find a room here? Isn't it too slow?
- What about library manipulation? Maybe Sylvan Library in a possible green splash?
- What removal should be played? Is a splash really necessary?
- Dark Ritual - awesome, but is it good in here?
- Discard should be played, but is Thoughtseize the no.1 in a creature heavy deck? Isn't probable that therapy is better (also synergizes more with ghast)
- Has wasteland a place in this deck? (Screwing zoo/canadian Threshold is awesome)
- What are the correct numbers for Tombstalker and Nocturnus?

I think this deck need's still to go a long way, but I have a good feeling about it.

[zabuza]

Well, I played a tourney last friday with Vampires and i finally made 2-2 although it could be a 3-1 or even 4-0.
I played:
4*Verdant catacomb
4*Marsh Flats
2*Bayou
2*Scrubland
3*Urborg
4*Dark Depths
5*Swamp
----24 lands

4*Bloodghast
4*Gatekeeper of Malakir
4*Vampire Hexmage
4*Vapire Nighthawk
4*Vampire Nocturnus
----20 creatures


3*Duress
1*Jitte of Umezawa
4*Doom blade
4*Maelstrom Pulse
2*Echoing Decay
3*Cabal therapy
----16 Other spells


SDB
4*Planar void
4*Aegis of honor
4* Krosan Grip
3* Serenity

First round I played against affinity. I made a 2-0 here. Maindeck have lot of removal and sideboarding serenity´s destroyed him. An easy walk here.

Second round I played against ANT. I lost 0-2 here. First game i don´t know he was ant and first tur therapy tarmogoyf. He comboes me on second.
Second game i therapy mystical tutor and see that he doesn´t have anything more to combo out, but the next card he drew was infernal tutor and comboes me on second turn. Bad luck here.

Third round was against goblins. I won 2-0. IT was easy because he started slow in both games and i have lot of removal for his problematic dudes. I therapy stingscourger on second game and see that the only two cards remaining in his hand were 2 ringleader so therapy again and his hand was empty.

Fourth round was against canadian. I lost 0-2 here because i keep 2 horrible hands. First game I mana-screwed with one swamp and one depths and lost without seeing any other land in five turns. SAecond round i made a very aggressive mulligan to find planar void (because i wanted to test them here) and keep a hand with five cards, one of them a swamp, another a depths and without planar void. I was mad here. After that we played three more games and i won the three (keeping playable hands and so, you know ;) ) so I lost this round because I played it very bad.

My thoughts after the tournament are the following:
-The deck is good, I think this deck can make good results in legacy.
-The sideboard was horrible. Aegis of honor was untested, but i think it´s not good to stop zoo, burn and so, what can we play here.
-Planar void are bad here. I drew it when the opponent´s grave was full so it was totally unuseful.
-Lot of removal here. I´m not going to play echoing decay (at least MD)
-Duress were unuseful (I used them because i expected to face against dream halls decks but none of them were in the tourney). I´m going to play only 4 therapies as discarding effect because they can discard more than one card multiple times.
-Serenity´s were awesome. They help against stax, tomb decks, affinity, and so on.
-I think the right configuration of the deck is B-gw because both colors (gw) offer lot of thinks to use.
green offers krosan grip, wich is the best artifact-enchantment removal and kills halls for sure and maelstrom pulse (wich are slightly better than vindicate here. They can´t take care about lands, but removes multiple permanents like zombies (dredge), soldiers (decree), artifacts (last time one pulse destroyed 3 chalice of the void), and any creature, artifact or enchantment we need to destroy.
White provides serenity (a house) , good removal and red hosers (top combat naya, burn and so).
-I think the best black removal we can use is doom blade. It kills anything in legacy but tombstalkers, confidants and shadows, but kills more stuff than smother (which is the second best removal here). I don´t like snuff out here because in legacy there are lot of burn spells and the only way we can recover life is with nighthawk (which usually is bolted) and jitte (slow) so making the game easier for them is not a good idea.
-Planar void is bad here. I´m going to replace them with relic of progenitus, because i´ve played ravenous trap before and it´s unuseful in several match ups so i think relic can solve the problem.


Can you give me any more ideas and thoughts??
Lot of thanks.

[Suares]

Ok well here is the list I have at the moment I had got flights to Madrid with Vampires at a small GPT in Gravesend (England) for that list go to deckcheck.net. I was Very lucky on the day that I was in a room full of Dredge as thats what I had planned for. The problem decks for me so far have been Zoo& Cat zoo, Lands, Enchantress and to a lesser extent Bant Survival. It is the main reason I have moved into White.
Anyway this is the list:

MAIN DECK

4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scrubland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
11 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Vampire Nocturnus
3 Malakir Bloodwitch

3 Smother
2 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Gerrard's Verdict
3 Tendrils of Corruption

SIDEBOARD

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Plague
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Zuran Orb
1 Humility
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Serenity

Ok this isn't the finished product especially the board I don't think bringing in the Leyline combo against Zoo is correct but I will need another way to win after dropping Humility. the bonuses are that Leyline will keep Goyf small and Lavamancer a 1/1 dork while I set up Humility

I still need to work on this but so far so good. I would like to add a couple of things:
1) Dark Depths for me is another deck and the need to get to 5 mana means I don't really want to be vunerable to Wasteland
2) Dark Confidant is good in Eva Green because the potential to loose a lot of life is only realised when hitting a Tombstalker but in this deck the ACC means you consistantly lose between 8-12 life a game.
3) I do not think this is the deck I would chose if I had an unlimited choice but it could become better if the format changes and Zoo becomes less dominant as meta specific cards (Gerrard's Verdict, Tendrils of Corruption) could be dropped for more power.

All advice is welcome hope you like the list

Ed

[Pltnmngl]

Burnt Offering/Culling the weak with Bloodghast and Highborn sounds some good. Throw in Hexmage/Depths combo for flexibility and your standard Vampire package, you may have something quite interesting. Of course, maybe I'm pushing towards the danger of cool things...