ropaganda/Ghostly Prison and Planeswalkers

[Wobbles The Goose]

Ok, so I know that my opponent doesn't need to pay 2 to attack my planeswalker if I have ghostly prison in play. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12819

But what if they don't realize that and pay 2 anyway? Can I be penalized for not informing my opponent that it isn't possible to pay for ghostly prison when they attack my planeswalker? Does this constitute "failure to maintain a legal gamestate" or just a situation where my opponent was supposed to know better? Does the REL or my knowledge of how the interaction is supposed to work change if I would get a penalty? Does it matter if my opponent specifically say "I'll pay 2 for the prison to attack Ajani?" as opposed to just tapping to lands and attacking?

[Dark_Shakuras]

Ok, so I know that my opponent doesn't need to pay 2 to attack my planeswalker if I have ghostly prison in play. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12819

But what if they don't realize that and pay 2 anyway? Can I be penalized for not informing my opponent that it isn't possible to pay for ghostly prison when they attack my planeswalker? Does this constitute "failure to maintain a legal gamestate" or just a situation where my opponent was supposed to know better? Does the REL or my knowledge of how the interaction is supposed to work change if I would get a penalty? Does it matter if my opponent specifically say "I'll pay 2 for the prison to attack Ajani?" as opposed to just tapping to lands and attacking?

You are not required to teach your opponent. If he asks, and you mislead him, then it's a problem, but if he swings and pays 2, then it's assumed he tapped for 2, and at the end of phase he would take 2 mana... he would empty his pool, and lose the 2 mana from said pool. (Stupid M10)

There is no penalty for this.

[heroicraptor]

You are not required to teach your opponent. If he asks, and you mislead him, then it's a problem, but if he swings and pays 2, then it's assumed he tapped for 2, and at the end of phase he would take 2 mana... he would empty his pool, and lose the 2 mana from said pool. (Stupid M10)

There is no penalty for this.

Mana pools empty at the end of each step.

[cdr]

You are required to inform your opponent if he attempts to do something illegal. Trying to pay for a Ghostly Prison when you can't is illegal.

[Dark_Shakuras]

You are required to inform your opponent if he attempts to do something illegal. Trying to pay for a Ghostly Prison when you can't is illegal.

I have had a local judge rule that (a similar case) it was up to the player to figure out, and paying for costs that don't exist, is not illegal, but that he is adding mana for no reason.

The senerio for this was Tabernacle. There used to be 2 Magus of the Tabernacle's out, and one died, but the player still was paying 2 mana per critter, after the game ended, and the player who spent all his mana paying for Magus's found this out, he was pissed, and call the judge, the judge said, 1) He will not change the outcome of the match based on that after the fact (totally agree on that one), and 2) said that it was not misleading, or even against the rules for his opponent to not tell to stop paying double, it is each players responsibility to know what is going on, and from his opponits view, he could have been paying 1 extra mana for no reason. He said it is not the Magus players job to figure out what his opponit is doing, so long as he makes sure all play is legal.

Basically he said Magus player doesn't have to figure out WHY Player b was paying an extra 1, but where it's against the rules or not. It's totally legit to tap lands for mana at any time, so it was legit.

cdr, can you make a ruling on that as well? (The above senerio with the double Magus paying)

[tivadar]

Ok, I'm guessing a bit here, but you're not allowed to mislead an opponent. This might be judge to judge, but if an opponent says "I'm paying 2 so this guy can attack your planeswalker" and you say either "ok" or nothing at all then there might be some misleading. My guess is this is a somewhat gray area.

I'm curious what CDR says here as well. I think I'd inform an opponent, but not allow him to untap that mana (as he's already tapped it, which is a perfectly valid action).

[cdr]

I have had a local judge rule that (a similar case) it was up to the player to figure out, and paying for costs that don't exist, is not illegal, but that he is adding mana for no reason.

The senerio for this was Tabernacle. There used to be 2 Magus of the Tabernacle's out, and one died, but the player still was paying 2 mana per critter, after the game ended, and the player who spent all his mana paying for Magus's found this out, he was pissed, and call the judge, the judge said, 1) He will not change the outcome of the match based on that after the fact (totally agree on that one), and 2) said that it was not misleading, or even against the rules for his opponent to not tell to stop paying double, it is each players responsibility to know what is going on, and from his opponits view, he could have been paying 1 extra mana for no reason. He said it is not the Magus players job to figure out what his opponit is doing, so long as he makes sure all play is legal.

Basically he said Magus player doesn't have to figure out WHY Player b was paying an extra 1, but where it's against the rules or not. It's totally legit to tap lands for mana at any time, so it was legit.

cdr, can you make a ruling on that as well? (The above senerio with the double Magus paying)

I find it hard to believe that the player (A) will act in the very narrow way that would allow his opponent (N) to legally maintain the fiction that N does not know why A is adding mana to his pool.

If A is leaving the land tapped, it would be an invalid shortcut - there's no longer any Tabernacle there to shortcut. If he's saying anything like "pay for Tabernacle", "pay", etc, A is attempting to do something illegal. Only if A silently taps his land without making any indication could N legally pretend N does not know what's going on.

Similarly with Ghostly Prison - any indication other than silently tapping land pretty much invalidates the fiction.

A player is allowed to add mana to his pool, but he's not allowed to take an illegal action or use an invalid shortcut.

[Dark_Shakuras]

I find it hard to believe that the player (A) will act in the very narrow way that would allow his opponent (N) to legally maintain the fiction that N does not know why A is adding mana to his pool.

If A is leaving the land tapped, it would be an invalid shortcut - there's no longer any Tabernacle there to shortcut. If he's saying anything like "pay for Tabernacle", "pay", etc, A is attempting to do something illegal. Only if A silently taps his land without making any indication could N legally pretend N does not know what's going on.

Similarly with Ghostly Prison - any indication other than silently tapping land pretty much invalidates the fiction.

A player is allowed to add mana to his pool, but he's not allowed to take an illegal action or use an invalid shortcut.

Ok, (he was just leaving the lands tapped) so it was illegal. What about the local judge ruling? I agree he should not change the outcome of the match, but you say it was wrong how he ruled it?

[cdr]

Yes, that was incorrect - leaving your lands tapped is a shortcut, and if the thing you were paying for leaves play, there's no more shortcut.

[johanessen]

You are required to inform your opponent if he attempts to do something illegal.

In competitive tournament, that means a warning?

[cdr]

A warning for Game Play Error for the person attempting to pay, and a warning for Failure to Maintain Gamestate for the opponent.