Match Slips

[santeria]

can you ask a judge to see the match slips from previous games if you think something is wrong or not accurate ?

[Anusien]

It depends. What sort of thing do you think is wrong?

Generally if you and your opponent fill out the slip and turn it in wrong, most TOs and Scorekeepers won't jump through hoops at decent sized events to fix it, if that's what you think is wrong.

[santeria]

no, it wasnt that simple. for the sake of argument Im going to refer to the other 3 players as peter, paul and mary. peter, paul and mary are all friends, paul and mary are a couple. I dont know any of them. we all played in a 5 round event with cut to top 8 tonight.

I beat peter in the second round and paul in the fifth as mary watched. top 8 got announced and I was 8th and peter was 9th. paul and mary were further down the list somewhere.

all of a sudden mary somehow comes to the conclusion that at some point during the night she'd won a round she'd lost. she goes up to the female judge and gives her some convoluted sob story interchaning the words round, match and game like they all meant the same thing. the female judge then goes to the head judge for the side event we were in and tells him the girl should be 3-2 instead of 2-3.

he says that he'll check, walks to the judges area, has a short conversation with a guy sitting at a computer. they print out a paper and he comes back with new pairings. Im now bumped out of the top 8 into 9th place and her friend peter is in 8th.

I was standing beside all of them the whole time and heard her story to the female judge, the female judges retelling to the head judge and then watched him walk back and briefly talk to the guy at the computer. all of that took maybe 5 minutes tops. everybody was rushing around in a hurry because some random kid had gone to time and into turns 3 seperate times. taking approximately 20 minutes each time with counterbalance nonsense and judges having to reverse his game state once. so everyone was bitching.

anyways, long story short. I track down the head judge and I ask if I can physically see the match slips from marys games. I wanted some proof that it actually happened the way she said. because she never specified which round or with which person this mysterious loss that was a win happened with. so I ask him I can see them and he says he already looked at them and there was a mistake. and I ask him specifically if he looked at the slips and he said yes. so I asked him again if I could see them and he said I didnt need to, that the guy who enters in all the data had read the slip wrong.

its entirely possible that this girl really did win. I dont know who she played at all during the event. I wasnt seated near her the whole time. but what is bothering me is that mary made the complaint to the female judge, female went to the head, head went to the comp and then came back with a new pairings and as I said all of that took less than 5 minutes and I watched all of it happen. and AT NO POINT did the head judge or the guy at the comp go through all approximately 125 match slips that were in the huge box of match slips to see at which round of the 5 rounds any of this happened at.

its more like that he took his judges word that it happened and had them change the information. why didnt mary notice this before the top 8 pairings had been anounced and her friend was barely bumped out by me. if I would have seen anyone dig through the huge box of slips to see if what she said was true, then I wouldnt care that I got bumped out of the top 8. its just that from my perspective I didnt see anyone physically back up this girls story, they just ran with it because they were already over an hour behind cause of that one other random kid going to turns 3 times and stalling.

so when I tracked down the head judge and specifically asked him if he had seen all of her match slips and he said he had. I just thought it was crap cause I'd watched him THE WHOLE TIME after the female judge came to him and he at no point dug through all 125 or so slips. he was back with new pairings in less than 2 minutes after hearing the female judge tell him about the girl.

does that make sense ? or can you explain it to me so it does ?

[paK0]

Well, this is hard to judge from a mere story, but from the judges point of view I guess it is unreasonable to show a player the Slips.

[citanul]

While it is unreasonable, it is also not correct to adjust the results at that point if the wrong results where entered before the last round started.

A player should see his seatings/score and then notice that something is wrong. There will be wrong pairings played if he/she only mentions at the end of the tournament. It's even possible to abuse this, get wrong results going 0-1, play weaker decks/opponents, go 4-1, let the judge know round1 was wrong, 5-0. While it might just be possible that if you went 1-0 you faced stronger decks/opponents and wouldn't even have gotten 4-1.

[cdr]

Ideally, if slips are being used, a scorekeeper should check the slip if a player claims to have won a match that was recorded as a loss, or at least verify with the other player.

As far as asking to see a slip, that's unreasonable - slips are for the scorekeeper, not for players. Asking that the result of a match be verified may be more reasonable. If the Head Judge says the slip was verified, it's time for you to go sit down.

You make it sound as if you feel there was a conspiracy against you, which is silly.


Generally if you and your opponent fill out the slip and turn it in wrong, most TOs and Scorekeepers won't jump through hoops at decent sized events to fix it, if that's what you think is wrong.

This is not really true - a good scorekeeper will attempt to correct the result if at all possible, even if recorded wrong on the slip, as long as it can be done without significantly impacting the event. A good scorekeeper will know how to fix the result without impacting the event.

[santeria]

or at least verify with the other player.

thats what my friend suggested he should have done.


If the Head Judge says the slip was verified, it's time for you to go sit down.

so you should just go and sit down, even if you watched him with your own eyes the entire time and never once saw him physically dig through 125 or so slips ? kind of reminds me when cops turn on their lights and sirens just to go through a red light and then turn them back off, you cant really do shit about it, but you know its wrong.

as soon as the friend got in, the girl and her man turned around and left the building. like got in their car and drove off. so if anyone would have had any questions for her, she wouldnt have been there.

Im not trying to be a dick. I just wanted to see some actual proof, like the slips or talking to her opponent or anything really that would have showed me that they didnt completely just go off of this girls flimsy story alone.

am I wrong ? what would anyone else do in this case ?

[socialite]

I may have read wrong but I am curious as to why it is unreasonable to request to see match slips, at least in this case.

The record for Mary was changed without the head judge or the score keeper even looking at the match slips. If this had happened to me I would have liked to see the actual slips checked beforehand.

[tivadar]

CDR's right, it is unreasonable to ask to see the slips (especially when they're not your slips). However, it's not unreasonable to report this to DCR. If you think there was a favorite being played/judges emotions figuring into the picture, then tell them about it. Perhaps everything was on the level, perhaps not. Either way, it's not for you to judge this really.

I didn't realize you hadn't seen them look through the slips either. Certainly worth mentioning. If you present your case in a level-headed manner, that's about all you can do. Also, it doesn't hurt to have someone you know with you just to hear your interaction with the judges. That way if they do come to you and ask if anyone else was there, you've got someone to refer them to.

Also, while it may be unreasonable to ask to see match slips, I don't believe it's unreasonable to ask what the change was that caused you to be bumped out (who got the loss that had had the win previously). This should let you verify with the player themselves (not the girl) what they thought happened. They should *DEFINITELY* have been notified of their record change. And if they weren't, that's definitely something to report.

[cdr]

If you think the HJ didn't look at the slips - which sounds like paranoid delusions to me - your problem is with the HJ lying to you, not with not seeing the slip.

[santeria]

Im not lying, I have no reason or anything to gain from lying at this point. I cant go back and replay the games. my initial question was me asking if I was able to see the slips, if I had a question about them. I didnt start this thread with the post of my story of what went down. all I wanted to know was if I had the right to see them or not. there is nothing paranoid or delusional about that. try not to have too much of a bias because you're a judge too. I just wanted to know the truth, thats all.

[frogboy]

As far as asking to see a slip, that's unreasonable - slips are for the scorekeeper, not for players.

Why is that unreasonable?

[Maveric78f]

One guy thought that he was in top8. Then, after realising that there was a mistake, he's not in the top8 anymore. It seems to me that the least of respect for him is to show that the mistake existed in the first place. He definitely has the right to be paranoid, and even more when he sees that the slips remain private.

[J.V.]

Why is that unreasonable?
For the first time since I've been on the Source I find myself agreeing with both Santeria and Frogboy, I hardly find it unreasonable. If I were getting knocked out of the top 8 after the pairings had been put up, I would want to know why and if the previously stated reason was given to me, I would want to see the actual results (under the circumstances that Santeria described). I would consider this to be significantly impacting the event.

a good scorekeeper will attempt to correct the result if at all possible, even if recorded wrong on the slip, as long as it can be done without significantly impacting the event. A good scorekeeper will know how to fix the result without impacting the event.
Even if she had indeed won the round she was recorded as losing and the correction was valid I would feel entitled to know this is in fact true if I am losing my top 8 slot because of this. In this particular case, I would say (and this is entirely based on Santeria's account, I wasn't there...) that it seems that the head judge was behind schedule and felt it would be faster and easier to simply believe the woman's story and have the results changed despite the "significant effect" that it had on the tournament.

[santeria]

so thats it then, its settled ? Im delusional, judges are infallible. and if anything similar happens to anyone in the future they have no right to see physical proof, even if they are ultimately in the right or wrong. instead they should just shut up and go away ?

[cdr]

Yep.