LBoros Landfall [Archive]

zabuza

10-27-2009, 08:29 AM

Hi everybody,
I´ve been looking at the decklist that finished in top2 in Standard and thought that with few changes it could be a good deck in legacy. The standard list is:

Creatures
4 Elite Vanguard
2 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kor Skyfisher
4 Plated Geopede
3 Ranger Of Eos
4 Steppe Lynx

Instants
4 Burst Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path To Exile

Basic Lands
3 Mountain
4 Plains

Lands
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Teetering Peaks Sideboard:
3 Baneslayer Angel
1 Ranger Of Eos
4 Celestial Purge
4 Harm's Way
3 Magma Spray

Now my list would be like:

Creatures
4 Elite Vanguard
4 Steppe Lynx
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Guide
4 Kor Skyfisher
4 Plated Geopede
2 Jotun Grunt
---------25 creatures

Instants
4 POP
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path To Exile
4 Harm's Way

------16 instant

Lands
1 Mountain
3 Plains
2 plateaus
4 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
2 Windswepth heath
2 Scalding Tarn
1 wooded Foothills
4 Teetering Peaks
----20 lands

SDB
3 Hide/seek
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Pyrostatic pillar
3 Volcanic Fallout

I think the deck is self explanatory but has lot of sinergy and is a superfast deck.

Lot of fetches to grow up landfall critters (usually bigger than goyf), direct damage to finish the opponent or kill dudes and some combat tricks to gain aggro wars (Goblin Bushwhacker, harm´s way, ..)

I was thinking on including in sideboard Zealous persecution (with any black land like scrubland or badlands MD) in order to surprise decks like goyfslight (ohh your nacatl dies and my guide not ;) ) or so. What do you think guys of the list??

What do you think about this deck or something similar in legacy?? Ideas, thoughts?

Eatatjoes

10-27-2009, 09:22 AM

I would drop the harms way for chain lightning. I dont know how good kor skyfisher, or plated geopede would be in legacy, in the standard version, most decks have already dropped geopede for hellspark elemental. Id probably switch them out for a mix between figure of destiny, grim lavamancer, and something else, not sure right now, its late.

godryk

10-27-2009, 10:22 AM

zabuza

10-27-2009, 10:45 AM

Yeah, i know about that. The only thing i don´t like too much is that is lot of burn oriented so i would like something different using geopede and lynx (they are awesome with fetches), goblin guide and so.

Anyways i´m going to test this deck too, but i prefer something more aggro oriented instead of burning the opponent.

Thanks for your replies. Any more ideas?

Elfrago

10-27-2009, 10:46 AM

I <3 godryk list.
Maybe it could also pack wild nacatl and/or goyf.

zabuza

11-02-2009, 09:50 AM

I like this deck a lot. It´s very fast and resilient but sometimes few unstable.

The list of Rhoner is very good but i´m not very sold at all. I was thinking on something like:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Plated Geopede
---16 creatures

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift bolt
4 harm´s way
3 Path to exile
4 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
---25 spells

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Plateau
4 Mountain
---20 lands

SB:
4 Hide/seek
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 path to exile
2 Plated Geopede
3 Ravenous Trap

What do you think about the list?

Atwa

11-02-2009, 11:43 AM

Why Hide/Seek in the Side over other options, like Disenchant?

Phoenix Ignition

11-02-2009, 11:51 AM

I
What do you think about the list?

Well your curve seems to be pretty dangerous

1cc= 27 cards
2cc = 7 cards
3cc = 4 cards
6cc = 2 cards

Chalice at 1 would wreck all but 15 cards. Counterbalance would probably shut off all but 6 cards. With every fast deck you need a lot of 1 drops, but here it looks like you're really putting all your eggs in one basket. Even burn decks diversify their casting costs more.

I would suggest dropping some 1 costs or you might run into those games where your deck is nullified by their turn 1 or 2 Chalice or CB.

zabuza

11-02-2009, 12:01 PM

Because CB i´m playing hide/seek in sideboard against Disenchant. Hide/seek does almost the same thing (removing CB, Moat, Humility, etc) from the game, but Hide/seek because it´s 4 CC usually dodges CB.

I was thinking on using 4 vexing shuser on SDB so we can play almost every card of the deck with 2 mana.

This deck is soo fast that usually the CB has not time to lock me before he dies. Anyways, i´m going to play shuser because chalice hurts too.

The sideboard then would be:
4 Hide/seek
4 Vexing Shuser
3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 path to exile
3 Ravenous Trap

More ideas? What do you think about the deck?

Phoenix Ignition

11-02-2009, 12:06 PM

Because CB i´m playing hide/seek in sideboard against Disenchant. Hide/seek does almost the same thing (removing CB, Moat, Humility, etc) from the game, but Hide/seek because it´s 4 CC usually dodges CB.

It doesn't work like this. If you choose to play Hide or Seek, either spell you play is 2cc. When you reveal Hide/Seek from CB it is "2cc and 2cc" so you can counter something for 2cc. If you reveal it with dark confidant, however, it is also "2cc and 2cc" so 4 total life loss.

This deck is soo fast that usually the CB has not time to lock me before he dies. Anyways, i´m going to play shuser because chalice hurts too.

Shusher is a good idea. Don't forget that the person playing CB top can get it out 2nd turn without trying too hard. I find it hard to believe that you can kill them before the second turn, especially if they have countermagic.

zabuza

11-02-2009, 12:20 PM

Well this deck kill on third-fourth turn but think that if they have top and CB on second turn means that they played 1 turn top, 2 turn CB while 1 can do first turn lynx, second fetch, guide and bolt. They have taken 9 damage on second turn, next turn fetchland, make them uses top with CB and hit (15 damage) plus fireblast, POP or ... and they are dead.

Anyways i´m going to put shuser on Board because i want to make sure i have no problems with chalices, Cb and so.

I have to change hide/seek because they doesn´t work as i expected them to do so what can i play on that slots? The options i´m considering are: Duergar Hedge-Mage, seal of cleansing, Serenity, smash to smitherens, pulverize.

What do you think? Which is the best option?

zabuza

11-06-2009, 04:36 PM

THis is the new list i´m toying with. I think we can improve it few more so please any help would be welcome.

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Plated Geopede
---17 creatures

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift bolt
4 Path to exile
4 Price of Progress
4 lightning helix

---24 spells

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained mire
2 Plateau
3 Mountain
1 undiscovered paradise
---21 lands

SB:
4 Disenchant
4 Vexing Shuser
4 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Ravenous Trap

Other cards i´m considering:

Figure of destiny: Another good beater to spend mana on it.

Martyr of ashes: Nowdays with the resurgence of ichorid ant the new list (with bloodghast and so) i think they are the best answer to that deck. You remove the bridges while kill all creatures on his side of the table.

Serenity: This card is awesome vs Stax and variants. I would like to play it it SDB.

Reckless abandon: A 4 damage for R bolt. When lynx are unuseful, you can´t support jotun or lavamancer sad you can sac it for the last points of damage.

Harm´s Way: I love this card but i don´t know if it´s playable on legacy. you can save one of your dudes while killing another of the opponent, but not sure about it. Nice trick but....

Fight till death: To use the sad lynx and another dudes for killing bigger monsters.

Any more ideas?

Please can you help me to improve the deck. Lot of thanks

Pastorofmuppets

11-06-2009, 09:23 PM

needs more Nacatl & Goyf.

Hanni

11-06-2009, 09:50 PM

Some kind of Boros Landfall deck top8'ed this weekendat the invitational final tourney of the Madrid's Legacy League. The list was played by a well-known local player, Omar Rohner (kind of spanish pro-player), who used to pick up Goyf Sligh at the regular tournaments. It's pretty much burn with some dudes:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx
1 Jotun Grunt
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Riftbolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Helix
4 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Plateau
3 Mountain

SB:
3 Duergar Hedge-Mage
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Path's to Exile
3 ravenous Trap

That's actually VERY interesting. Aside from some major differences that I would make, the concept of cutting Goyf out of (Naya) Sligh for Steppe Lynx is a very promising idea. Sligh is designed to be a fast deck, and while Goyf is very powerful and cost efficient, he swings at turn 3 at the earliest, in a deck who's fundamental clock is turn 3-4.

In Naya Sligh, Goblin Guide and Wild Nacatl have clearly been the strongest creatures and are what truly make the deck so powerful (albeit everyone thinks Sligh sucks and Zoo is superior, which I disagree with). Steppe Lynx is potentially more explosive than both Goblin Guide and Wild Nacatl, and giving the deck 12 1cc big/fast creature drops seems like it would tremendously increase the fundamental clock, speed, consistency, etc, etc of Sligh.

My current Naya Sligh deck for a starting point.

R/G/w Naya Sligh

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [B] Taiga
1 [A] Plateau
1 [U] Savannah
4 [RAV] Mountain (2)
1 [8E] Forest (3)

// Creatures
2 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
3 [LRW] Tarfire
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [DLM] Incinerate
4 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

The above decklist I have played hundreds and hundreds of games with in its current incarnation and I can say that the deck is highly tuned for its designed purpose.

From the above shell, I think it would be wise for me to at least consider and playtest Steppe Lynx as a replacement for Tarmogoyf. Doing so does require some manabase modifications (more fetches), and obviously Tarfire isn't as good. Here's what I'm going to playtest with for now:

R/W/g (Goyfless) Naya Sligh

// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [A] Plateau
1 [B] Taiga
1 [U] Savannah
4 [RAV] Mountain (2)

// Creatures
2 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx

// Spells
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
3 [DD2] Seal of Fire
4 [TSP] Rift Bolt
4 [FD] Magma Jet
4 [DLM] Incinerate
4 [VI] Fireblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

It obviously opens up vulnerability to Stifle based tempo decks, but aside from that, I honestly think this would improve every other matchup. 12 fetchlands is more than enough to consistently make Steppe Lynx swing as a 4/5 on turn 2. Swinging for 4 on turn 2 and 2 on turn 3 gives him a net of 6 damage, the exact same as both Goblin Guide and Wild Nacatl. Sounds good so far. Sometimes he may wiff if you don't hit land drop number 3, but at the same time, sometimes Nacatl wiffs as only a 2/2, so it seems like a fair trade for its explosiveness. If you crack a fetchland on turn 2 and 3, he has the potential to do 8 damage by turn 3, for a 1cc investment... that's downright disgusting for Sligh.

(12 fetchlands also strengthens Grim Lavamancer a great deal, which is awesome added synergy.)

I'm actually REALLY excited about this, and I definitely think this is going to be yet another step forward for the evolution of Sligh. As radical as it is right now, I really don't think it is. Everyone disagreed with me when Nacatl was first printed about it being amazing in Sligh... literally everyone, minus like 1 or 2 people. In this same way, I expect very few, if no one to agree with me yet again. I don't have testing put in yet, so I can't give factual information about it right now, but I see this as being a very successful innovation, and eventually becoming mainstream (like Nacatl is now, finally) for (Naya) Sligh.

Thoughts?

EDIT: The Savannah sucks now in this build, so I'd drop it for another Plateau. I'd also say that cutting a Mountain for another Taiga would be fine as well, since there are so many fetchlands, which can easily grab basic Mountain.

-1 Savannah
-1 Mountain
+1 Taiga
+1 Plateau

Phoenix Ignition

11-06-2009, 10:44 PM

Thoughts?

Looks fast but I really don't see how you justify Seal of Fire with 25 1cc spells and no goyf to feed with enchantments. I would replace that if I were you, you really don't want an opponent's goyf to grow unnecessarily fast and be able to block your lynx early.

25 1cc spells just seems like you win in the first turn or two or get counterbalanced out. Perhaps even Jotun Grunt to act like your pseudo goyf while hurting opponent's graveyard strategies.

EDIT: haha I see the exact same question got asked in your goyf sligh thread post. That's pretty funny. I still don't like it though.

Hanni

11-06-2009, 10:50 PM

I posted my above post on the Goyf Sligh thread as well, and someone else also asked me that. Here's my answer:

The reason I opt for Seal of Fire is for a few reasons, which could just as easily still be Tarfire.

First of all, it's 1cc. That's why I prefer it over Helix or PoP. 1cc is so fundamentally important to the curve.

Secondly, it can kill opposing creatures. The point early on is to burn away blockers to maximize damage dealt from the early beats. Seal of Fire doing only 2 damage may not kill a few creatures out there early on, but it still does kill alot of stuff.

The other reason I don't run PoP because of its inconsistency, which is why I feel that it is a perfect sideboard card (usually dropping the Incinerates).

The reason I don't run Lava Spike is because it doesn't damage creatures. However, I'm not saying it's not a good possibility, and it definitely warrants testing. I'm more apt to try it in this proposed build because it does more damage and this deck is faster and more explosive.

My biggest gripe against Lava Spike is:

1cc burn that can hit creatures is more relevant than 2cc burn (like PoP), since it's cast during the early game where you want to drop a 1cc guy and remove the opponent's blocker on the same turn (turn 2), and the more 1cc removal that can target creatures, the better.

Lava Spike doesn't target creatures, which is completely against my reasoning for running more 1cc burn (creature removal) rather than more 2cc burn (like PoP or Helix).

To answer your questioning of the 2 damage vs 3 damage: yes, it cannot kill x/3's or bigger like Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, and so on. However, it can kill every single Goblin or Merfolk (since its role is to be used early, before they get pumps), and much more. The 1 damage less could potentially be relevant, in games where multiple Seal of Fires vs Lava Spike's are drawn, and in rare cases where the opponent is 1 life away from death, slowing the clock down 1 full turn. More often than not though, I don't see the difference between 3 damage over 2 damage (1 net damage gain) being more important than Lava Spike's inability to hit creatures and Seal of Fire's ability to do so.

That's my extended answer.

EDIT: Maybe you're right and wrong at the same time. Seal of Fire pumps Goyfs, which should be avoided if possible. That's why I'm going to play *gasp* Shock.

EDIT 2: Instead of trying to post the same replies to both this thread and the Goyf Sligh thread, I'm just going to post them in the Goyf Sligh thread, unless there is little response there and high response here. For now, it'll go to the Goyf Sligh thread. I'll leave this one to discussing Boros, since what I presented is actually Naya Sligh, not Boros.

LordEvilTeaCup

11-07-2009, 12:55 AM

I posted my above post on the Goyf Sligh thread as well, and someone else also asked me that. Here's my answer:

EDIT: Maybe you're right and wrong at the same time. Seal of Fire pumps Goyfs, which should be avoided if possible. That's why I'm going to play *gasp* Shock.

Burst Lightning is strictly better than shock, and could be what you are looking for. Yeah, you probably will hardly use the kicker, but its there.

Hanni

11-07-2009, 01:18 AM

Good call, thanks man. Burst Lightning it is, then.

frodo21

11-07-2009, 07:52 AM

Berserk is perfect for the deck. My mates play a list able to kill on turn 2.

troopatroop

11-07-2009, 11:27 AM

I think it's certainly interesting. Steppe Lynx is really the card tho, and you would probably be wise to play Tarmogoyf over those Shocks/Burst Lightning. Steppe Lynx does give us a potential 4 power turn one attacker, and thats as big as it gets. I've been impressed enough with Nacatl, and while I still think he's the better creature, paired together it would be really quick, even for Legacy standards. I can see what you mean about Tarmogoyf slowing you down a bit, but he just gives you so much more lategame for a 2cc creature. Test it both ways, but I'd suggest playing it. Also, good call on doubling up the duals. Wasteland and such.

I really like the idea tho. I wonder what the turn 3 Goldfish % is.

soiber2000

11-07-2009, 06:47 PM

Berserk is perfect for the deck. My mates play a list able to kill on turn 2.

It's the second time I read something about this kind of deck and I am interested in it. Can you post a decklist for reference please? I think steppe lynx is a good way to go with berserk.

Hanni

11-07-2009, 09:26 PM

GGoober

11-07-2009, 10:18 PM

I really like where this is heading. Do you think it's a hybrid between Goyf Sligh and Zoo? Is this faster than Goyf Sligh? I think it's defintiely more aggressive and faster than Zoo. The list should include Path to Exile simply to push through or to create landfall triggers for more of your Lynxes when needed.

Rico Suave

11-07-2009, 10:43 PM

How does Berserk give a turn 2 goldfish, unless you're running creature pump instead of burn, at which point you have a completely different deck. I realize this thread is supposed to be about Boros (WW/r) and I'm discussing Sligh, so a creature pump version is just as viable to discuss in here as Sligh.

My question is, what matchups does dropping burn for creature pump improve? Seems like combo would be the only one, IMO.

First turn Plateau, Steppe Lynx.

Second turn Fetch (pump to 4/5), Bounty of the Hunt (pump to 7/8), double Berserk?

There's no real way to pull it off, even with Fireblast, without Bounty of the Hunt though. Even then you would just lose to anything with StP.

Hanni

11-08-2009, 01:08 AM

First turn Plateau, Steppe Lynx.

Second turn Fetch (pump to 4/5), Bounty of the Hunt (pump to 7/8), double Berserk?

There's no real way to pull it off, even with Fireblast, without Bounty of the Hunt though. Even then you would just lose to anything with StP.

It doesn't matter if and how it would work, I'd rather play burn instead of creature pump. Far more aggressive, much less dependant on creatures to actually win, and a million other reasons.

I think it's certainly interesting. Steppe Lynx is really the card tho, and you would probably be wise to play Tarmogoyf over those Shocks/Burst Lightning. Steppe Lynx does give us a potential 4 power turn one attacker, and thats as big as it gets. I've been impressed enough with Nacatl, and while I still think he's the better creature, paired together it would be really quick, even for Legacy standards. I can see what you mean about Tarmogoyf slowing you down a bit, but he just gives you so much more lategame for a 2cc creature. Test it both ways, but I'd suggest playing it. Also, good call on doubling up the duals. Wasteland and such.

I really like the idea tho. I wonder what the turn 3 Goldfish % is.

Honestly, I've been dissatisfied with Tarmogoyf in Sligh for a while. I hate seeing hands with multiple Goyfs, cause it's so damn slow. Also, like I already said, the earliest Goyf can possibly swing is turn 3, which is sometimes only for 3 damage, and even at 4 damage, is outclassed in speed by the other 1 drops.

When Goyf Sligh first evolved from Dryad Sligh, I would agree 100% that Goyf was an absolute must and made the deck what it was. Since then, 3 new creatures have been printed that have significantly impacted the deck. Originally, the deck was using guys like Mogg Fanatic and Kird Ape, where Tarmogoyf was necessary for midgame juice. With the new 1 drops, though, the deck no longer needs that juice. The deck consistently "gets there" before Goyf is becomes relevant almost always. I know Tarmogoyf is big and undercosted, and is the most cost effecient threat in the game... but the new 1 drops guys have evolved Sligh so drastically that even 2cc creatures are just too slow these days. I love it.

I really like where this is heading. Do you think it's a hybrid between Goyf Sligh and Zoo? Is this faster than Goyf Sligh? I think it's defintiely more aggressive and faster than Zoo. The list should include Path to Exile simply to push through or to create landfall triggers for more of your Lynxes when needed.

There is a spectrum:

Burn ----------- Goyf Sligh ----------- Zoo

The spectrum has Burn on one end, and Zoo on the other. In between is where Goyf Sligh fell. Goyf Sligh is a hybrid between the two. As of recently, Goyf Sligh is actually faster than Burn, which has, IMO, invalidated Burn. Regardless, think of the Burn side as being the fastest, and the Zoo side being the slowest. (Just assume this so that my explanation makes sense, even though Burn has fallen from the wheel because of the power creep of creatures in relation to the stagnancy of higher efficiency burn spells.)

With Steppe Lynx, Sligh has yet again been able to evolve even further. This addition doesn't push it on the spectrum closer towards Zoo, it pushes it on the spectrum closer towards Burn. So my list would be a hybrid between Goyf Sligh and Burn, not Goyf Sligh and Zoo, as far as fundamentals/clocks are concerned (again, when I say Burn here, I mean in relation to the fast/aggressive nature, not the actual archetype).

As far as Path to Exile goes, that is contradictory to the gameplan of this deck. The gameplan isn't to maximize Steppe Lynx, it's to maximize aggressiveness and increase the clock/fundamental turn. Path would replace a burn spell, which is contradictory to that concept. Path is better as a sideboard card, because it removes Ichorids/Bloodghasts against Dredge, and removes big guys against decks where we cannot race them as effectively without it (tempo decks typically, but CounterTop with RWM is another good example).

Regardless, Path to Exile has bad synergy with Steppe Lynx anyway. Investing 1 mana to remove one of our other creatures to pump Lynx +2/+2 is retarded, especially considering that the creatures you are removing are at least able to do 2 damage a turn anyway, a fully pumped Nacatl can do 3, and Grim Lavamancer is more versatile than just doing 2 damage. Not only that, but Path to Exile not only removes one of our guys for 1 mana, the pump is only a 1 time, until end of turn effect. Horrible play, IMO. Imagine if you kept your Wild Nacatl, and instead of Path'ing to make Lynx +2/+2 bigger, the Path was a Burst Lightning. Instead of losing a 1 damage differential (-1), the deck has gained a 5 damage (+5), which is a net of (+6) damage. The goal for Sligh is to maximize its damage output, so clearly, Path to Exile to pump Steppe Lynx is bad. The only time that would be a good play is when you have 2 Steppe Lynx's in play and were unable to trigger landfall that turn (so you get to swing with a 2/3 rather than sit on two 0/1's). Seems to obscure to matter, especially when a Burst Lightning in that situation would have yielded the same 2 damage.

------------

Honestly though, guys, this thread is for Landfall Boros, not Sligh. I'd rather discuss Sligh in the Sligh thread, so if you have questions for me about my deck, you can either PM me or ask me in the Goyf Sligh thread (which ironically, would need a new primer/thread anyway, since it's no longer Goyf Sligh, but rather Naya Sligh, without Goyf no less).

Illissius

11-08-2009, 07:27 AM

zabuza

11-08-2009, 08:12 AM

Hi,

I agree with almost everything Hanni has said but i think there are cards that i think are unuseful here.

I dont like Burst Lightning because although is an improved shock i think every burn we play must deal at least 3 damage, so there in no room here for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by frodo21 View Post
Berserk is perfect for the deck. My mates play a list able to kill on turn 2.
It's the second time I read something about this kind of deck and I am interested in it. Can you post a decklist for reference please? I think steppe lynx is a good way to go with berserk.

I would like to know which is that list too. I think pump is worse (because if you haven´t creatures in play that pump spells wil be sat on your hand forever) than burn although pump is usually faster that burn.

Hanni which would be your improved list? Mine now is:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Wild Nacatl
---19 creatures

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 lightning helix

---20 spells

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained mire
3 Plateau
2 Mountain
1 Taiga
1 undiscovered paradise
---21 lands

SB:
4 Disenchant
4 Vexing Shuser
4 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Ravenous Trap

What do you think?

HdH_Cthulhu

11-08-2009, 09:33 AM

I thinke the Scapeshift, Valakut combo could be good in a Zoo/Landfall.deck :)

You could use it to pump your landfall guys +8/+8 or whene you have 6 lands out you could shoot 15 dmg ftw.

It feels like the Natural Order/Porgenitus combo. A bit clunky but very powerful.

Illissius

11-08-2009, 09:36 AM

You could use it to pump your landfall guys +8/+8 or whene you have 6 lands out you could shoot 15 dmg ftw.

7. Each Mountain needs 5 other Mountains.

troopatroop

11-08-2009, 12:43 PM

In only my second game of testing, I think I drew the nuttiest hand this deck can draw. 2 Steppe Lynx, Chain, Lightning Bolt, Plateau, 2 Fetchlands. On the play, no less.

Turn 1: Plateau, Lynx

Turn 2: Fetchland, second Lynx, attack for 2 (holding the fetch) opp at 18

Turn 3. Fetchland, crack them both, Cast your burn (I drew another chain), and attack for 12! with the pair of Steppe Lynx. One bolt killed his blocker, and the other two killed him clean.

An admittedly nutty draw, but it's not too out of the ordinary when you think about Nacatl and Guide being capable of similar stuff.

zabuza

11-08-2009, 07:11 PM

I´ve played thisa deck today in the afternoon and i like it a lot. The vesrion i´ve tested is the one i´ve posted several posts before.

I like nacatl a lot, but i´m thinkling on removing them form the deck because we only play 6 real lands so i think is better to focus the deck in the original colors R/W so i´m testing figure os destiny in place of nacatl.

Figures are good because have a good middle late game, while nacatl is better in the begining. Comparing them we have that nacatl cvan deal 6 damage in the third turn (same that figure, but figure needs a complete full mana investment to reach 6 damage on third turn. --> 3 + 3 = 2 + 4. The problem of figure is that you need to spend mana on them so you become few slow but you gain mana stability because having only one taiga makes that if wasteland destroys you land, you are not going to play any othe nacatl anymore.

I´m going to test figures and see how they perform his function.

I´ve added a singleton of isamaru so now we have another 2/2 for one mana drop.

The list is like the following:

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Figure of destiny
1 Isamaru hound of konda
---19 creatures

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 lightning helix

---20 spells

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained mire
3 Plateau
3 Mountain
---20 lands

SB:
4 Disenchant
4 Vexing Shuser
4 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Ravenous Trap

Now i´m trying to tune the sideboard. I think we can improve it a lot. serenity would be an option (against stax, dragon stompy, enchantress, affinity, and so on).

I think we must include path to exile anywhere but i don´t know where.

Any ideas, oppinions or suggestions?

Forbiddian

11-08-2009, 08:32 PM

Figure of Destiny doesn't make sense.

The deck has no endgame. Goblin Guide alone removes all possibility of actually having an endgame, and the rest of the deck falls off precipitously after turn 4 or so.

Having a single 4/4 or even 8/8 beater isn't going to win a clutch game if it comes out so late that the rest of the deck can offer no support.

If you really want an endgame card, you're better off with Flame of the Bloodhand or Price of Progress.

troopatroop

11-08-2009, 11:30 PM

Figure is really really bad, and Wild Nacatl is the best 1 drop ever. End of Argument. Play Plated Geopede over that card if you're not capable of playing Green. Also, Reading your post was really painful. Use spell check, and proofread your stuff least.

So I've been thinking about the amount of playable cards we have at 1cc. 9 Cards would be enough to build an entire deck at 1cc, which after 4x Fireblast, could be really quick. I'm aware that running an entire deck at 1cc has it's issues in Counterbalance and Chalice, but let's go down the list anyway.

Steppe Lynx
Wild Nacatl
Goblin Guide
Grim Lavamancer x2/3

Lightning Bolt
Chain Lightning
Burst Lightning
Rift Bolt
Seal of Fire
Lava Spike

That's 14 or 15 Creatures, 28 Spells (counting Fireblast), and 20 lands, Which brings us to 62-63 cards. Lava Spike, Seal of Fire, and Burst Lightning being the weakest slots. You could play Kird ape instead of the weaker burn spells, but they're also pretty weak off the top. I realize that this is a rough idea in the first place, because Counterbalance and Chalice exist, but I still think it's worth exploring.

13 Red Fetchlands
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
3 Mountain

4 Nacatl
4 Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Burst Lightning
4 Fireblast
3 Seal of Fire

That leaves 3 slots, which could go to Kird Ape or Lava Spike. Vexing Shusher is your MVP card from the board, along with Grip. Tarmogoyf might still make the maindeck too. Seal of Fire, Kird Ape, and Lava Spike will be the first on my radar. It gets colded by CB and Chalice, but otherwise would go as fast as possible. Since I'm lucky enough never play against either, I'm gonna give it a serious look.

Loxodon Baileyarch

11-09-2009, 12:07 AM

I play this deck in Standard because it's budget and insane. I think Fireblast should be ran.

That is all from me :laugh:

zabuza

11-09-2009, 07:16 AM

troopatroop

11-09-2009, 01:36 PM

First of all sorry for my english but it´s not my native language and i usually don´t speak it, so please forgive me. i´ll try to do my best in following posts.

I´ve tested nacatl and is awesome, so i would like to play it, but with the manabase of the deck as it is (and manabase must be in those proportions because you wan to landfall almost every turn), you only can introduce a single taiga to play them. Yesterday they performed its role very well so i don´t know what to do.

I don't see what you mean here. You can most definitely play 2 Taigas, and with 12 sac-lands, that's 14 green sources. Plenty for only 4 cards.

You are right that figure is soo slow in this deck, but i don´t find any other 1CC drop that could replace nacatl, but more burn.

Play Kird Ape, or Plated Geopede. Both cards are stronger than Figure.

I don´t like Seal of Fire and Burst Lightning. If you play burn you must play spells that deals, at least, 3 damage. This is because this deck must be fast and 2 damage burn is not the way to go.

In a perfect world, we would only play cards that dealt 3, but there aren't enough good ones. Lava Spike is bad because it can't hit creatues. Burst Lightning and Seal of Fire are the next best alternatives.

Flames of the blood hand is expensive (3cc) but could be an interesting option to stop people gaining life. I´ll have to try them.

I wouldn't. 3cc is really bad.

I'm going to test again fireblast, at least as a couple of, but they not have sinergy with nacatl :(.

You should never do that to yourself in the first place. Fireblast is used to finish the game, and get 4 damage straight to their life total. Don't go saccing your lands early in the game, it's never worth it.

zabuza

11-10-2009, 09:37 AM

I don't see what you mean here. You can most definitely play 2 Taigas, and with 12 sac-lands, that's 14 green sources. Plenty for only 4 cards.

The problem is that this deck needs at least 14 fetch to effectively abuse from landfall. The less fetch you play, the worst lynxes are. Rohner (the player who uses this deck for first time) and his teammates assures that 15 fetch is the right number. In testing 14 fetch is ok, but less make the deck worse.

Because of that there is no room for more non-basic lands (you only play 2 mountain, so the land configuration could be 14 fetch, 3 plateau, 2 mountain, 1 taiga). I don´t know if cutting a plateau for a taiga is a good option but i don´t think so because helyx and lynx are white and nacatl loves plateaus.

Play Kird Ape, or Plated Geopede. Both cards are stronger than Figure.

Kird ape is bad in this deck. This deck isn´t zoo, has few forest (only 1) and a 2/3 which needs forest is not a great adition (because, if i play forests I would play nacatl).

Plated Geopede is another option. I would like to include it in the deck but it´s 2CC make it worse than other options, and sometimes you haven´t lands to play so this guy becomes bad too.

In a perfect world, we would only play cards that dealt 3, but there aren't enough good ones. Lava Spike is bad because it can't hit creatues. Burst Lightning and Seal of Fire are the next best alternatives.

I don´t think so. You have magma jet (i don´t like this card too, but sure is better than seal or burst because Scry can fetch you something), lava spike (ok, you can´t target creatures but you have 16 other lightnings to do that), reckless abandon (one mana, sacrify your 0/1 lynx because you have played all your lands, 4 damage for R), martyr of ashes (Beats ichorid FTW, and aggro in general) and lot of other things.

I wouldn't. 3cc is really bad.

Yeah, 3CC is bad, and in sideboard we can play sulfuric vortex (which is better than flames) so this option is discarded.

You should never do that to yourself in the first place. Fireblast is used to finish the game, and get 4 damage straight to their life total. Don't go saccing your lands early in the game, it's never worth it.

I know it. I´m not retarded so this card is always used to kill the oponent (last 4 damage) but sometimes you have to risk, sometimes opponent´s last card is counter or sometimes it can finish the opponent because he gains life or so. In these marginal scenarios blast is not the way to go. Anyways, i´m playing a couple of them.

Hanni

11-10-2009, 10:56 AM

The problem is that this deck needs at least 14 fetch to effectively abuse from landfall. The less fetch you play, the worst lynxes are. Rohner (the player who uses this deck for first time) and his teammates assures that 15 fetch is the right number. In testing 14 fetch is ok, but less make the deck worse.

I disagree. 12 has been sufficient in testing, especially with 4 Magma Jet. I'm not saying that more couldn't be better. The problem with running any more than 12 fetchlands, though, is that you either need to run more than 19 lands (which is wrong), or cut mana producing lands.

Running 2/2 Plateau/Taiga is the correct call. Cutting one shuts you off of a color for the rest of the game from a single Wasteland. Do not go below 2/2.

Other than that, I'm running 3 basic Mountains. I would not go below 2 basic mountains. I run 33 spells that require red mana (only), and in alot of games, I don't even need green or white. Especially if you know you're facing Wasteland, having 2 mountains in play is very strong. This deck needs at least 2 lands in play to function properly.

Now that you mention it though, I'll go ahead and drop down to 2 Mountains for 1 Scalding Tarn. 2 basic Mountains is all the deck needs to function off of through Wasteland/Wastelock, and the 13th fetchland should improve consistency.

Kird ape is bad in this deck. This deck isn´t zoo, has few forest (only 1) and a 2/3 which needs forest is not a great adition (because, if i play forests I would play nacatl).

Plated Geopede is another option. I would like to include it in the deck but it´s 2CC make it worse than other options, and sometimes you haven´t lands to play so this guy becomes bad too.

Kird Ape is better than Figure of Destiny, though, which was what he was getting at. Both are bad in here, though.

Geopede is horrible. This deck typically sees 2-4 lands a game, and Geopede doesn't even swing until turn 3. Tarmogoyf is a much better replacement if you're going to run a 2cc creature.

I don´t think so. You have magma jet (i don´t like this card too, but sure is better than seal or burst because Scry can fetch you something), lava spike (ok, you can´t target creatures but you have 16 other lightnings to do that), reckless abandon (one mana, sacrify your 0/1 lynx because you have played all your lands, 4 damage for R), martyr of ashes (Beats ichorid FTW, and aggro in general) and lot of other things.

The idea of playing a 1cc 2 damage burn spell is horrible, but in reality, it's not that bad. As far as dealing damage directly to the opponent, 1 less damage is usually of minor relevance, unless you draw all 3 1cc 2 damage spells in one game, and they all target the opponent. For the most part, most early creatures are killed by 2 damage burn spells. Even opposing Wild Nacatl's come into play no bigger than a 2/2 on turn 1.

1cc burn is essentially for the curve/speed/clock of this deck. The deck runs such a large amount (12 total) of creatures that yield high damage per cost (1 mana for 6 damage average), that any loss of reach from running a 1cc 2 damage burn spell, as opposed to something that can do more damage, is mostly irrelevant.

You really want all your burn spells to be able to target the opponent's creatures, unless you're running Price of Progress (which replaces Incinerate, not a 1cc 2 damage burn spell). Regardless of how many burn spells you run, you never want to have a situation where you play a creature on turn 1 and cannot remove a blocker on turn 2. The more burn spells that target the opponent's creatures, the better.

zabuza

11-10-2009, 11:52 AM

I disagree. 12 has been sufficient in testing, especially with 4 Magma Jet. I'm not saying that more couldn't be better. The problem with running any more than 12 fetchlands, though, is that you either need to run more than 19 lands (which is wrong), or cut mana producing lands.

Running 2/2 Plateau/Taiga is the correct call. Cutting one shuts you off of a color for the rest of the game from a single Wasteland. Do not go below 2/2.

Other than that, I'm running 3 basic Mountains. I would not go below 2 basic mountains. I run 33 spells that require red mana (only), and in a lot of games, I don't even need green or white. Especially if you know you're facing Wasteland, having 2 mountains in play is very strong. This deck needs at least 2 lands in play to function properly.

Now that you mention it though, I'll go ahead and drop down to 2 Mountains for 1 Scalding Tarn. 2 basic Mountains is all the deck needs to function off of through Wasteland/Wastelock, and the 13th fetchland should improve consistency.

I´ve tested the deck and the more fetch you play, the better ends the game. In my testings 14 fetch have proved to be the right number because you want your lynx beat for at least two turns. Aditionally, i think the right number of lands this deck must play is 20.

Another topic that we must discuss is that you need to play more plateaus than Taigas. The reason is simple, you play at least 11 white cards (lynx, jotun and helyx) opposing to 4 green cards (4 nacatl). Beside of that, Nacatl pumps itself with plateau (more than taiga´s pump), so i think 3 is the right number.

I don´t suggest you to play two mountains. As you said, this deck needs two lands to function properly and there are decks that play Ghost Quarter or other type of LD (sinkhole, smallpox,..). Only having 2 mountain is dangerous enough to be considered.

Kird Ape is better than Figure of Destiny, though, which was what he was getting at. Both are bad in here, though.

Geopede is horrible. This deck typically sees 2-4 lands a game, and Geopede doesn't even swing until turn 3. Tarmogoyf is a much better replacement if you're going to run a 2cc creature.

As i said before i think none of them are designed for this deck. I don´t like ape because needs forest to be effective and i prefer nacatl in this slot.

Figure is not good here too. I would like it would be playable because i like it, but testing said me that there is no way to play it here.

Geopede would have been a monster if its CC would have been 1, but 2cc is not playable here too.

The idea of playing a 1cc 2 damage burn spell is horrible, but in reality, it's not that bad. As far as dealing damage directly to the opponent, 1 less damage is usually of minor relevance, unless you draw all 3 1cc 2 damage spells in one game, and they all target the opponent. For the most part, most early creatures are killed by 2 damage burn spells. Even opposing Wild Nacatl's come into play no bigger than a 2/2 on turn 1.

1cc burn is essentially for the curve/speed/clock of this deck. The deck runs such a large amount (12 total) of creatures that yield high damage per cost (1 mana for 6 damage average), that any loss of reach from running a 1cc 2 damage burn spell, as opposed to something that can do more damage, is mostly irrelevant.

You really want all your burn spells to be able to target the opponent's creatures, unless you're running Price of Progress (which replaces Incinerate, not a 1cc 2 damage burn spell). Regardless of how many burn spells you run, you never want to have a situation where you play a creature on turn 1 and cannot remove a blocker on turn 2. The more burn spells that target the opponent's creatures, the better.

I would like to play any other bolt that deals 3 or more damage for R, but this card doesn´t exist yet ;) , so we must play another thing. 2 damage spells are not enough for me. Yeah, they can kill creatures at the very beginning of the game, but form the second turn till the end they are semi-useless (ape, nacatl have 3 resistance, goyf grows at this number too (fetch, instant and sorcery is not difficult too), and so on). Of course it can kill smaller critters opponent plays, but doesn´t clean our way to beat. If i must play something that deals 2 damage, I would play HARM´S WAY instead. Is a 2 damage spell that saves our guide, lynx, nacatl from burn, or blocking and a very nice combat trick, and also helps against volcanic fallout, pyroclasm and so. Anyways, I think playing 2 damage burn spells is not the way to go.

Hanni

11-10-2009, 12:28 PM

I´ve tested the deck and the more fetch you play, the better ends the game. In my testings 14 fetch have proved to be the right number because you want your lynx beat for at least two turns. Aditionally, i think the right number of lands this deck must play is 20.

You must have played hundreds of games with the deck already then, because the amount of times you see a Steppe Lynx in the opening hand isn't that high, and unless you topdeck one on turn 2, that's the only time you really care about him.

I've tested with 12 fetchlands and found it to be sufficient for all intents and purposes. It worked out just fine. However, I've actually cut my basic Mountains down to 2 to add a 13th fetchland.

The right number of the decks is not 20. I've literally played hundreds of games with Sligh for the last 1 1/2 years and 19 is the correct number. That was also when I was running a higher maindeck mana curve, including 4 Tarmogoyf, 3 Price of Progress, and 4 Incinerate. Factor in some extra fetchland thinning with the lower curve, and 19 lands is still going to be the correct number.

Another topic that we must discuss is that you need to play more plateaus than Taigas. The reason is simple, you play at least 11 white cards (lynx, jotun and helyx) opposing to 4 green cards (4 nacatl). Beside of that, Nacatl pumps itself with plateau (more than taiga´s pump), so i think 3 is the right number.

You only need two of each. Many games, you're not even going to see a Wild Nacatl or Steppe Lynx. With the 13 fetchlands I'm running, I have 15 green sources and 15 white sources, which is more than enough. I realize that white is more necessary than green, but that just means that fetch for Plateau instead of Taiga, is all. The 2/2 split is correct.

I don´t suggest you to play two mountains. As you said, this deck needs two lands to function properly and there are decks that play Ghost Quarter or other type of LD (sinkhole, smallpox,..). Only having 2 mountain is dangerous enough to be considered.

Very few decks play Ghost Quarter. Not many decks play Sinkhole, and even fewer play Smallpox. Sinkhole is the only one I'd even consider building around. Whether or not running 13 fetchland and 3 basic Mountain or 12 fetchland and 3 basic Mountain is still debatable, but I'd rather maximize the decks internal synergy rather than try to have a more stable manabase against Sinkhole.

I would like to play any other bolt that deals 3 or more damage for R, but this card doesn´t exist yet ;) , so we must play another thing. 2 damage spells are not enough for me. Yeah, they can kill creatures at the very beginning of the game, but form the second turn till the end they are semi-useless (ape, nacatl have 3 resistance, goyf grows at this number too (fetch, instant and sorcery is not difficult too), and so on). Of course it can kill smaller critters opponent plays, but doesn´t clean our way to beat. If i must play something that deals 2 damage, I would play HARM´S WAY instead. Is a 2 damage spell that saves our guide, lynx, nacatl from burn, or blocking and a very nice combat trick, and also helps against volcanic fallout, pyroclasm and so. Anyways, I think playing 2 damage burn spells is not the way to go.

Who cares if the Burst Lightning in your hand doesn't kill the opponent's Wild Nacatl? Lightning Bolt his Nacatl and then Burst Lightning his Qasali Pridemage. Burst Lightning has enough targets to be relevant early game, which is the only time in the game where burn is going to be hitting the opponent's creatures.

If a 1cc 2 damage burn spell isn't something that you want to try, then don't. I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise, because it does look and sound janky as hell.

The only other burn spell I can think of that costs 1cc, can target creatures, and deals 3 damage, is Shard Volley. I'd much rather play a 1cc 2 damage burn spell than have to sacrifice a land.

If you don't like Burst Lightning, I guess try out Path to Exile or Lava Spike. Those are really the only 2 other spells that would be worth running in the Burst Lightning spots. Path sucks as a topdeck because it doesn't deal damage, and Lava Spike sucks in the opening hand because it can't target creatures.

I'm sticking with Burst Lightning, though.

zabuza

11-10-2009, 12:52 PM

You must have played hundreds of games with the deck already then, because the amount of times you see a Steppe Lynx in the opening hand isn't that high, and unless you topdeck one on turn 2, that's the only time you really care about him.

I can say that i´ve played lot of games with the deck and can say that opening with lynx (having fetch on hand) is the more broken thing you can do in first turn. Is right that lynx is not always in the opening hand but i usually don´t keep hands without having any of the three beaters the deck has (lynx or nacatl or guide).

I don´t want to enter in a child discussion of who have played more games with the deck because is no sense to do that. The reason for posting here is for improving my deck, not speaking about another non sense topics.

The right number of the decks is not 20. I've literally played hundreds of games with Sligh for the last 1 1/2 years and 19 is the correct number. That was also when I was running a higher maindeck mana curve, including 4 Tarmogoyf, 3 Price of Progress, and 4 Incinerate. Factor in some extra fetchland thinning with the lower curve, and 19 lands is still going to be the correct number.

I´ve played sligh, burn for long time and know what was the right number of lands there (in fact burn plays with 18 lands very well), but this deck is not burn nor sligh and althought is close similar needs more lands because lynxes feed from there.

You only need two of each. Many games, you're not even going to see a Wild Nacatl or Steppe Lynx. With the 13 fetchlands I'm running, I have 15 green sources and 15 white sources, which is more than enough. I realize that white is more necessary than green, but that just means that fetch for Plateau instead of Taiga, is all. The 2/2 split is correct.

I´m not very sold about it. I test again the split but the last time it wasn´t good enough for me.

Shard Volley is awfull. I thought on it and inmediately discarded it. it´s not for this deck at all.

You haven´t told nothing about harm´s way. Do you like it?

troopatroop

11-10-2009, 01:24 PM

I´m not very sold about it. I test again the split but the last time it wasn´t good enough for me.

What was bad about it? It doesn't even cause an occasional hiccup in mana, because Taiga still taps for Red. It just means you don't lose to a single Wasteland. 2 of each dual is correct.

Hanni

11-10-2009, 01:46 PM

I can say that i´ve played lot of games with the deck and can say that opening with lynx (having fetch on hand) is the more broken thing you can do in first turn. Is right that lynx is not always in the opening hand but i usually don´t keep hands without having any of the three beaters the deck has (lynx or nacatl or guide).

I don´t want to enter in a child discussion of who have played more games with the deck because is no sense to do that. The reason for posting here is for improving my deck, not speaking about another non sense topics.

I wasn't attempting to get into a discussion about who has played more games, etc. You said that Lynx isn't effective enough without 14 fetchlands, and I said that it was effective with 12. Unless you've played enough games to discover a statistical pattern of how often you see Lynx and how often you can or can not trigger landfall, you cannot make claims that 14 fetchlands is necessary, and that 12 fetchlands isn't enough. Obviously 14 would be better than 12, but that doesn't mean that Lynx needs 14 to work. If you took this the wrong way, I appologize.

I'll just compromise. I'll play 13 fetchlands, which is inbetween 12 and 14. 13 is better than 12, so I'm good to go. Do you think that 13 is enough?

I´ve played sligh, burn for long time and know what was the right number of lands there (in fact burn plays with 18 lands very well), but this deck is not burn nor sligh and althought is close similar needs more lands because lynxes feed from there.

Again, I didn't mean to come off as though I was better than you. I appologize if that's how you took it. All I was trying to say is that I've played the deck alot, and 19 lands was the perfect amount. The only difference I see in here is that I lowered the curve, which means I could actually cut a land. However, I upped the fetchland count, which thins the deck of lands, so I'd probably want to up the count right back up to 19.

I think the problem here is that you're trying too hard to build the deck around Steppe Lynx, when you shouldn't. Obviously, the deck needed modified to accomodate him. That doesn't mean that changing fundamental Sligh design, like upping the land count, is warranted. Steppe Lynx works perfectly fine in my build, and while running 20 fetchlands would make him stronger, that doesn't mean it's necessary (over-exagerating, but you get the point).

I´m not very sold about it. I test again the split but the last time it wasn´t good enough for me.

With 12-14 fetchlands, how is a 2/2 split of duals a problem? You're almost always going to fetch the land out instead of actually drawing it, so the actual amount of white to green sources that you run is largely decided based on what you fetch, not what you draw.

You haven´t told nothing about harm´s way. Do you like it?

I haven't tested it to be able to give a qualified answer. At first glance, I'd say I'd rather play more burn. Harm's Way is reactive rather than proactive. I'd rather kill and opponent's blocker and then swing, rather than swing and then kill an opponent's blocker. As a topdeck, it's situational reach, requiring that the opponent does at least 2 damage to me for me to be able to do 2 damage to them. The damage prevention against myself is mostly irrelevant; being such an aggressive aggro deck makes me not so worried about my own life total.

However, like I said, I haven't tested it, so I really cannot say. Against decks packing burn, I can see Harm's Way proctecting my guys being really strong.

Short answer: I don't know.

zabuza

11-10-2009, 03:13 PM

Ok, I´ve tested quantities between 12 and 15 and i was pleased with 13, 14 & 15 ( + fetch, + pleased ;) ) but a friend of mine, that studies Maths told me that 14 was the right number because probabilities. I don´t know if he is right but I´ve believed him.

As you said, is neccessary to modify a little the deck to accomodate him. I agree about this deck being few similar to sligh too, but i think this deck solves some of the problems sligh has.

With Lynx and Nacatl we have great beaters for a very low cost. Guide is sweet and all the burn is there for the things all we know.

But i think this deck can use some other tools.

I like 2-3 jotun MD because they are awesome. They make small goyfs, recover your wasted lands, have a big body and help with cemetery based strategies.

Lavamancers are a must.

Beside of that all we must play is burn.

About harm´s way you are right, is a reactive card and sometimes you need the opponent does some damage to play it, but there are some points that make me prefer this card against burst lightning.
1. In my meta there is lot of zoo so this card is awesome.
2. Is a combat trick that nobody expects so surprise is another good point.
3. It can save any of your creatures from pyroclasm, volcanic fallout and so.
4. Kill creatures pro-red.

I only used it in two games and it wasn´t bad, but i can´t assure nothing with as little testing of the card. Perhaps another good point of it is that it´s played in t2-standard in boros bushwacker deck ;)

Hanni

11-10-2009, 09:51 PM

As you said, is neccessary to modify a little the deck to accomodate him. I agree about this deck being few similar to sligh too, but i think this deck solves some of the problems sligh has.

You misunderstood me. I didn't say this deck is similar to Sligh, this deck is Sligh. This deck is not a different deck that solves Sligh's problems, it's an evolution of Sligh. Nothings changed about the actual gameplan, just the cards that execute its gameplan.

I like 2-3 jotun MD because they are awesome. They make small goyfs, recover your wasted lands, have a big body and help with cemetery based strategies.

At this point, I really don't want to repeat myself. To sum it up quickly: the point of Steppe Lynx is that it lets us get away from running 2cc creatures, otherwise there'd be Tarmogoyf's in the list. His ability vs graveyard strategies is irrelevant because its slow and this deck is fast, and Jotun Grunt has awful symmetry with Grim Lavamancer.

About harm´s way you are right, is a reactive card and sometimes you need the opponent does some damage to play it, but there are some points that make me prefer this card against burst lightning.
1. In my meta there is lot of zoo so this card is awesome.
2. Is a combat trick that nobody expects so surprise is another good point.
3. It can save any of your creatures from pyroclasm, volcanic fallout and so.
4. Kill creatures pro-red.

I only used it in two games and it wasn´t bad, but i can´t assure nothing with as little testing of the card. Perhaps another good point of it is that it´s played in t2-standard in boros bushwacker deck ;)

1) If your metagame has alot of Zoo, congratulations, Sligh has a great matchup against Zoo.

2) Combat tricks and suprises are nice and all, but after the first time it's cast, they know it's there. Minor point, really.

3) Saving creatures is really not the point of Sligh, though. The deck runs creatures designed to do as much damage as possible during the first few turns of the game, which become outclassed after that. The deck is designed that way on purpose, so that it reduces its reliant on creatures beats, has a faster clock, and has better reach. That's why the deck runs a low creature count and a high burn count.

4) I'm not worried about Pro Red creatures. All that means is that they can now chump block me to slow me down a little bit. Luckily, most decks with Pro Red guys cannot race me regardless. Plus, if they were truly problematic, I could just as easily bring in Path of Exile from the sideboard.

---

Honestly, I'm thinking Harm's Way is probably bad in Sligh. I can see potential for it in Zoo, which is much more concerned about its creatures. In Sligh, I'd almost always rather have a burn spell. I'd still prefer to test it before discussing it, though, because it's such an unusual card.

zabuza

11-11-2009, 04:27 AM

You misunderstood me. I didn't say this deck is similar to Sligh, this deck is Sligh. This deck is not a different deck that solves Sligh's problems, it's an evolution of Sligh. Nothings changed about the actual gameplan, just the cards that execute its gameplan.

This deck IS NOT sligh. First of all sligh, by history, has been a red monocolored deck that has very fast gameplan by playing jackal pup, mogg fanatic and so. When you add a color (white) is known with another name ;).

I agree that the gameplan of this deck is close similar to sligh (beat with cheap creatures till oppoenent dies with burn), but I think this deck is better because lot of reasons.

Aditionally, I can see that our lists are close similar but have some main differences. First of all i play Jotun. You are not playing them and i respect it but i think that playing white and not playing this guy is not a good choice. You have told that:

At this point, I really don't want to repeat myself. To sum it up quickly: the point of Steppe Lynx is that it lets us get away from running 2cc creatures, otherwise there'd be Tarmogoyf's in the list. His ability vs graveyard strategies is irrelevant because its slow and this deck is fast, and Jotun Grunt has awful symmetry with Grim Lavamancer.

But there are some things that you are not considering. The deck is fast, but having jotun gives you an opportunity aagainst another decks faster than yours (ichorid, reanimator,...) while beats for a lot.
The symmetry with lavamancer is not a problem because first of all you can remove cards from the opponents graveyard while using yours whith mancer. Beside of that remember that you don´t have to pay it´s cumulative upkeep if you don´t want to ;) so beating with this dude for a couple of turns usually is enough. Another good thing about grunt is that it can recover your wasted duals (or lands) making your fetch useful all the time. Finally, this dude shrinks goyfs (which are played everywhere) and no, i don´t play goyf in this deck because then it would be goyfslight and because goyf usually can´t reach it´s maximum power in this deck (land, instant, creature, sorecery) without help from opponent´s graveyard.

About harm´s way, i´m not very sold about it yet. I´m going to try another options and see how they work here.

Hanni

11-11-2009, 01:10 PM

This deck IS NOT sligh.

K. I'm done discussing in this thread now.

FieryBalrog

11-11-2009, 02:31 PM

It seems like this deck just auto-loses to a first or second turn Chalice @ 1. Countertop might be too slow to stop it, though.

LordEvilTeaCup

11-11-2009, 03:51 PM

This deck IS NOT sligh. First of all sligh, by history, has been a red monocolored deck that has very fast gameplan by playing jackal pup, mogg fanatic and so. When you add a color (white) is known with another name ;).

This deck subscribes to the "sligh priniciple." Just by splashing colors into a sligh deck, does not take away from it's slighness. It's still sligh :wink:

troopatroop

11-12-2009, 12:33 AM

Let me tell ya, this might sound crazy, but I think Reckless Charge is the card that really puts this deck over the top. I saw hungrylikealion playing one in his zoo deck, and it got me thinking. Consider the amount if hands that it just makes busted with this deck. Wild Nacatl and Steppe Lynx become a 6/3 and 7/5 attacker respectively on your turn two. This can be alot of damage when paired with another turn 1 Nacatl or Steppe Lynx. This is some ridiculous speed. 10 power attacking at you on turn 2? That races Counterbalance on the play. That also only uses three cards in your hand, and the two lands. You're still left with 3 or 4 cards in hand, then you draw for the turn. Even if they answer both those creatures with a sweeper or something... That's not a bad place to restart the game. Burn becomes a much better combo deck when they start at 10-12. Here's a sample decklist.

4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
4 Reckless Charge

4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Mountain

The Savannah is so you can cast Wild Nacatl turn 1, and follow it up with a very big Steppe Lynx. I think that's worth it. The SB can address all the problems this deck faces in Krosan Grip and Vexing Shusher. I dunno, maybe I'm nub for even trying it, but it makes alot of sense to me. You get another attack step in with your second creature, with a bolt on TOP of it for R. That's awesome! STP and Lightning bolt, or any other targetted removal really hurts, but it not like you can't wait till they've tapped out. I always try to consider the times where your opponent WONT have that perfect answer. Reckless Charge can really swing the game around. Steppe Lynx is absolutely awesome with it if you play it out right. Try this! It's sick.

TheMightyQuinn

11-12-2009, 02:39 AM

I used to use Reckless Charge in a casual Zoo deck I play my buddies with. I ended up cutting it because it was a bad topdeck when the ground started to get clogged. However, it was crazy explosive when I had it in my opening grip, so it might merit some testing.

zabuza

11-12-2009, 04:14 AM

I´ll have to try it. Reckless charge sounds good because pumping jotun, lynx, nacatl while giving them more power sounds good in the first turns, later it loses all and as you said is a bad topdeck, but who knows? I suppose that i´ll add a couple of them to try how does it works and will post here the results.

K. I'm done discussing in this thread now.

Hanni, i would like you still post in this thread if you want to. Your answers are appreciates but I think we have missunderstood ourselves, because some of your answers may sound little despective.

I don´t think so savanah is neccessary. You can play fetch taiga on first, fetch plateau on second, lynx and reckless.

What about reckless abandon? Is a goblin granade for every type of creature. You can sacrifice a little lynx, jotun that´s going to die, or any of your dudes to make 4 damage for R. Could be an option??

troopatroop

11-14-2009, 11:03 AM

I don´t think so savanah is neccessary. You can play fetch taiga on first, fetch plateau on second, lynx and reckless.

Nope, that doesn't work, because you need to be able to play Steppe Lynx before you play the fetch for the turn, and then use the mana to play Reckless Charge. The only way to do this is to have Green AND White available, so you need to be able to fetch a Savannah. It also matters with double Lynx hands, not just Nacatl.

Hanni, i would like you still post in this thread if you want to. Your answers are appreciates but I think we have missunderstood ourselves, because some of your answers may sound little despective.

He's not posting here because he can't benefit from going back and forward with you, so why would he waste his time? He clearly knows his stuff. Makes me wonder why I'm replying myself. Reckless Abandon is bad too, btw. I'd sooner play Lava Spike.

JudasKilled

12-03-2009, 01:09 AM

I think theres a few problems with reckless charge that naya/boros can ill afford to deal with.
1. No creature hands can still win, with that card in the hand or as a topdeck unlikely.
2. If they remove your creature thay can 2 for 1 you, if its a steppe lynx and u fetch to pump its almost a 3/1.

3. Its also absolutely useless without creatures on the board.

Flashback is nice though, that I do like.

After testing naya sligh and the straight r/w boros version. Naya is by far better. In testing it has a better early game with nactl and a better midgame to late game with goyf. Some build even sb him.

zabuza

01-24-2010, 07:58 AM

I won a tourney last friday with the deck.
The list I played was:

3 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Plateau
4 Wooded Foothills

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Plated Geopede
4 Figure of Destiny

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile

SDB
4 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Path to Exile
1 Serenity
1 Seal of cleansing
3 Shattering spree

The deck performs very well although sometimes i had 2 landfall creatures without any land to play so they were little. I´m thinking on playing a couple of Undiscovered paradise in order to always have a land to play. What do you think about it??

Another thing that i want to improve is sideboard. I would like to have something more against enchantments (if it´s massive better than making objetive. Perhaps including more serenity´s) because Enchantress is beginning to be played here again. Another thing that I would like to improve is the combo match-up, but i think it´s not possible for this deck because nowdays there are 2 main combos (ANT and Dream Halls) and since they are totally different I can´t find an answer for both of them (pyrostatic pillar is not enough) so what do you think about?
Can you help me to improve the SDB?