Dark Vial

[Jedi Knight]

Hey guys,I've been playing this deck for about 9 months now,and seems to be a wrecking ball! It seems to have an extremely decent match up against everything in the format, except mono-red BURN!
heres the list:
creatures: 4-Dark Confidant
3-Mesemeric Fiend
3-Tidehollow sculler
4-Tarmogoyf
2-Tombstalker

Spells: 4-Thoughtsieze
4-Hym To Tourach
3-Dark ritual
1-chainers Edict
2-Vindicate
1-Malestrom Pulse
4-Swords To Plowshares

Artifacts:
3-Aether Vial
2-Umezawas Jitte

Lands:
3-Scrubland
3-Bayou
3-Verdant Catacombs
3-Marsh Flats
4-Wasteland
2-Swamp
1-Plains
1-Tomb of Uhborg

Sideboard:
3-Perish
4-Leyline of the Void
4-E.Plague
3-Choke
2-Gaddock Teeg(currently testing..could be something elselike Deed or removal)

Let me now what ya think...I wasn't really sure where to post this,so I decided to throw it here.....I took 3rd with this list @ the last Meandeck Open!

[badjuju]

More like "Eva White" :laugh:

How does Dark Ritual perform for you? Doesn't look like it's as much of a powerhouse in this deck.

[Jedi Knight]

Dark ritual performs really well for me early game..but the later the game goes the worse it get's...But I will tell you that w/tombdaddy and late game flashbacks on Chainers it's a house! I only run three because it has potential to fuck up your late game!All in all I'm real happy w/3 in the main.
Jedi Tricks:wink:

[Jedi Knight]

Turn one Dark Ritual
Hym you? Resolves
Aether Vial? Resolves
At turn two you never have to move the vial counters b/c all your critters are at 2.....By the way I love to say "At the end of your draw step, trigger aether vial? Bring in Sculler effect and wreck you day"...This pisses people off (TRUST ME)

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Seems to me like you would want diabolic edict over chainer's. Yes flashback is nice but ideally you likely wont get to 7 mana and relying on having rit seems sketchy. Personally Id rather have my removal at instant speed.

[Jon Stewart]

I would play 4 Gatekeeper of Malakir.

It's removal that also gives you more Aether Vial targets to make Vial worth playing. Plus, uncounterable removal is sexy.

Edit: Nevermind, just realized that Kicker likely doesn't work with Vial. That's a shame.

[badjuju]

Turn one Dark Ritual
Hym you? Resolves
Aether Vial? Resolves
At turn two you never have to move the vial counters b/c all your critters are at 2.....By the way I love to say "At the end of your draw step, trigger aether vial? Bring in Sculler effect and wreck you day"...This pisses people off (TRUST ME)

I was just thinking that you have A LOT of multi-colored cards, and the only things you can actually ritual into are Hymn, Fiend, Bob, and your artifacts. You might not always have the chance to expend all BBB, unlike a deck that runs 1CC hand disruption spells + Sinkholes, Hyppie and Shade. But if it works out for you, then godspeed. Still a powerful turn 1 play if you can actually spend all the mana.

And yea, we figured out the vial @ 2 thing already :P

[Jedi Knight]

Seems to me like you would want diabolic edict over chainer's. Yes flashback is nice but ideally you likely wont get to 7 mana and relying on having rit seems sketchy. Personally Id rather have my removal at instant speed.

Yes I understand the instant speed is better.My friends and I have been back and fourth on this one,but in my local meta-the singleton chainer is a BOMB!
alot of the times late game i'll flip a shitty d.ritual off BOB and my opponent thinks it's dead.BUT they forget about the buried chainers in the bin!Just my opinion. (It's really only in there for progenitals)!!!

[Jedi Knight]

I was just thinking that you have A LOT of multi-colored cards, and the only things you can actually ritual into are Hymn, Fiend, Bob, and your artifacts. You might not always have the chance to expend all BBB, unlike a deck that runs 1CC hand disruption spells + Sinkholes, Hyppie and Shade. But if it works out for you, then godspeed. Still a powerful turn 1 play if you can actually spend all the mana.

And yea, we figured out the vial @ 2 thing already :P

TOMBDADDY+DARK RITUAL....I have had plenty turn one DADDY's with riual.

[FoulQ]

What?? Doesn't that involve 2 dark rituals, a fetchland, and a tombstalker? That seems pretty unlikely.

[ScatmanX]

The deck looks great.
Tou really need Choke against Blue? I mean, Vial + Discard isn't enough?
Coul put Bitterblossom in it's place, once it is a great staller, and great agains't Blue also (and great with Jitte).

Also, learn how to EDIT.

Edit: I think Rituals are fine, once you can cast Leyline if you draw it easier, same as Plague and Perish (also good agains't Progenitals).
Also, by playing Deadguy Ale, I often midgame like Ritual. If you put Deed on the board, ritual gets really badass.

[Jedi Knight]

What?? Doesn't that involve 2 dark rituals, a fetchland, and a tombstalker? That seems pretty unlikely.

Pretty unlikey?YES..but sometimes it happens....Usually around turn 3-4 dark rit's will help acellerate a tombstalker if I even have one!

[Jedi Knight]

The deck looks great.
Tou really need Choke against Blue? I mean, Vial + Discard isn't enough?
Coul put Bitterblossom in it's place, once it is a great staller, and great agains't Blue also (and great with Jitte).

Also, learn how to EDIT.

Edit: I think Rituals are fine, once you can cast Leyline if you draw it easier, same as Plague and Perish (also good agains't Progenitals).
Also, by playing Deadguy Ale, I often midgame like Ritual. If you put Deed on the board, ritual gets really badass.

TOATALLY AGREED!!!SCATMAN...sorry about the edit thing...I'm not sure how to even do it.
Edit:Choke hands down wins games by itself...at least in the 9 months I've played it!

[ScatmanX]

I know that Choke is great. No questions asked. I just wonder if the deck can beat blue based decks as often without it.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Why does an Eva/Ale deck need vial? You remove their hand and run Bob, and you don't run enough creatures to abuse it... I can totally see SB, but you run so few creatures

I suggest, take that out... run 4x Sinkholes to go with Vindicate, or something that's really gonna shut down your opponent. Shade? Specter?

I suggest 4x Dark Rituals. IMO its like an all or nothing thing, when I see decks ppl running like 2-3 its like "I kinda want it to show up opening hand, but not really". Run 4, its worth the chance for explosive play :)

[Jedi Knight]

I know that Choke is great. No questions asked. I just wonder if the deck can beat blue based decks as often without it.

I understand..usually I have a great game one against most blue decks especially land still variants...but post board I get worse and they get better!I decided to run choke because it's a great spell to bait my opponent with.After they see Jitte or tombdaddy and counter it I'll follow up with a CHOKE,and just fuck their day!Thats just my opinion....Also I had always ran two deed's in the board,,and recently took them out for two TEEG'S,Fuck Teeg,I'm back to P.DEED as two of in the board.

[Jedi Knight]

Why does an Eva/Ale deck need vial? You remove their hand and run Bob, and you don't run enough creatures to abuse it... I can totally see SB, but you run so few creatures

I suggest, take that out... run 4x Sinkholes to go with Vindicate, or something that's really gonna shut down your opponent. Shade? Specter?

I suggest 4x Dark Rituals. IMO its like an all or nothing thing, when I see decks ppl running like 2-3 its like "I kinda want it to show up opening hand, but not really". Run 4, its worth the chance for explosive play :)

I disagree,the Vial's are real potent...After some hand dissruption,and writing their hand down...you know whats in their grip.By abusing the end of draw step vial in sculler effect,you basically time walk their ass,leaving them with no play! In case they draw an instant speed spell. I really hate sink hole,and personally feel it's way too slow for the deck..And yes I have tested with it extensively! Shade:Eats up too much mana,two bad he's not good in this build and HIPPY:I love him to death but way to slow as well for this deck as I need my guys to all be two CC to abuse the whole Vial thing.The whole dark ritual thing is a debate my friends and I have had more than enough...I like 3,they like 4...

[Mark Sun]

I understand..usually I have a great game one against most blue decks especially land still variants...but post board I get worse and they get better!I decided to run choke because it's a great spell to bait my opponent with.After they see Jitte or tombdaddy and counter it I'll follow up with a CHOKE,and just fuck their day!Thats just my opinion....Also I had always ran two deed's in the board,,and recently took them out for two TEEG'S,Fuck Teeg,I'm back to P.DEED as two of in the board.

Can vouch for this :wink:

A well-timed choke can sway the game post-board. And AEther Vial is non-negotiable as a 4-of in this deck without question, having it at 2 counters basically gives you the ability to lay threats and/or disrupt their hand at instant speed.

Bob, I do have a question, though, you ever think about Needle in the board? EE @ 2 harms you a lot, I know I was able to get a few off on you.

[Jedi Knight]

Can vouch for this :wink:

A well-timed choke can sway the game post-board. And AEther Vial is non-negotiable as a 4-of in this deck without question, having it at 2 counters basically gives you the ability to lay threats and/or disrupt their hand at instant speed.

Bob, I do have a question, though, you ever think about Needle in the board? EE @ 2 harms you a lot, I know I was able to get a few off on you.

YEAH,yeah..MARK.....I have tested w/needle quite a bit.Agreed that explosives can wreck my day,but usually that explosives comes off of the top DECK! I'll put in some needles if I feel threatened by landstill variants,as an audible.But for now I just don't like them in the board.I DO RUN 2 Vindicates and a M.Pulse in the main.:tongue:

[Vacrix]

TOMBDADDY+DARK RITUAL....I have had plenty turn one DADDY's with riual.

dude, danger of cool things right here. why are you running tombstalker? sure it has evasion, but you could and should be using the rituals for better things. if they are in your opening hand then you can explode with fiend + thoughtseize, and proceed to win via goyf's. i can see tombstalker as being a really nice end game strategy but clearly your deck wants to take advantage of things early, and win fast. rarely will stalker come out quickly and because you dont run SDT you might run into problems flipping one with Bob. i think if you want to win fast try out purtrid leech, leech seems like a great choice, at 2cc so you can vial him in and he is out of burn range after pump. also, i think you are underusing aether vial, it could frees up your mana so much. once you have bob down, you want to be able to be playing 2cc creatures and casting removal at the same time in order to get the high ground. i really think you are under using vial. run more 2cc.

a few 2cc creatures to consider:
Auger of Skulls (like another hymn against control/combo. helps you win aggro races.)

Bant Sureblade (seriously, this guy is professor badass if you have putrid leech, teeg, or sculler in play. a killer against aggro)

Jötun Grunt (i've seen him more often than not put to good use in decks like this)

Cavern Harpy (dam good guy. 2cc, if vialed in he can save your guys, and you can bounce him for 1 life. only problem is he can only return black guys. however, you run quite a few black creatures. right now you run 9. if you run 4 leech, and 4 of each sculler/fiend and 4 bant sureblade (he's also blue so you can bounce him), and bob, thats 16 guys not including harpy itself. then you will be running more of a DnT like build.)

Ethersworn Cannonist (i will tell you right now, i play storm combo regularly, and i hate this guy. i fold to him. play him in your board)

Qasali Pridemage (you dont want him? he takes out dreadnought, EE, other vials, crucible, deed, so much shit. seems like a good board choice at least)

Sygg, River Cutthroat (seems like he could be another bob. better if you run blue)

Talara's Battalion (you play alot of green. i think you can vial him in without casting another green spell cause you arent 'casting' him. maybe a 2 of.)

Whitemane Lion (seems like a dam good run man. protects your guys, pretty well. you dont have to splash blue for cavern harpy if you want to run him. only disadvantage is he a one use spell. cavern harpy gives you card advantage cause you can bounce him and use him again.)

Yixlid Jailer (badass against ichorid. seems like your hard match much)




Dark Vial:
Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mesemeric Fiend
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Putrid Leech
2 Cavern Harpy

Spells:
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Vindicate
4 Path to Exile

Artifacts:
3 Aether Vial
1 Umezawas Jitte

Lands:
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Underground sea
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Tomb of Urborg

lots of tricks. im going to give it a spin whether or not anyone agrees. i think more vial though. at least the 4th in the board to side in against control. the tricky thing is manipulating the opponents hand. if you exile dreadnought with a creature and then get rid of stifle with other discard, you could bounce the creature sculler/fiend to your hand so you could pick a better target. such as hitting creatures when you are out of removal, and such. i think its a pretty imo resource, but only deserving of 1 or 2. you dont want to hit multiples cause they aren't necessary. it will be impossible to remove to cause you can just bounce it in response to removal.


thoughts?


EDIT:
also, some thoughts on deed. i dont think you want it. it takes out all your exile card guys (fiend/sculler) and vial, and your creatures, and jitte. i think EE is a better choice.

[ScatmanX]

...3 Tarmogoyf
...
3 Aether Vial
...

I think 3 Fiend + 3 Sculler is enough of those creatures...

4 P. Leech +4 Confidant + 8 Fetches + 4 Seize +2 Carven Harpy(wtf?)... It can be a lot o life loss, can't it? And with just 1 jitte?
I like the deck in the OP better.

[Jedi Knight]

dude, danger of cool things right here. why are you running tombstalker? sure it has evasion, but you could and should be using the rituals for better things. if they are in your opening hand then you can explode with fiend + thoughtseize, and proceed to win via goyf's. i can see tombstalker as being a really nice end game strategy but clearly your deck wants to take advantage of things early, and win fast. rarely will stalker come out quickly and because you dont run SDT you might run into problems flipping one with Bob. i think if you want to win fast try out purtrid leech, leech seems like a great choice, at 2cc so you can vial him in and he is out of burn range after pump. also, i think you are underusing aether vial, it could frees up your mana so much. once you have bob down, you want to be able to be playing 2cc creatures and casting removal at the same time in order to get the high ground. i really think you are under using vial. run more 2cc.

a few 2cc creatures to consider:
Auger of Skulls (like another hymn against control/combo. helps you win aggro races.)

Bant Sureblade (seriously, this guy is professor badass if you have putrid leech, teeg, or sculler in play. a killer against aggro)

Jötun Grunt (i've seen him more often than not put to good use in decks like this)

Cavern Harpy (dam good guy. 2cc, if vialed in he can save your guys, and you can bounce him for 1 life. only problem is he can only return black guys. however, you run quite a few black creatures. right now you run 9. if you run 4 leech, and 4 of each sculler/fiend and 4 bant sureblade (he's also blue so you can bounce him), and bob, thats 16 guys not including harpy itself. then you will be running more of a DnT like build.)

Ethersworn Cannonist (i will tell you right now, i play storm combo regularly, and i hate this guy. i fold to him. play him in your board)

Qasali Pridemage (you dont want him? he takes out dreadnought, EE, other vials, crucible, deed, so much shit. seems like a good board choice at least)

Sygg, River Cutthroat (seems like he could be another bob. better if you run blue)

Talara's Battalion (you play alot of green. i think you can vial him in without casting another green spell cause you arent 'casting' him. maybe a 2 of.)

Whitemane Lion (seems like a dam good run man. protects your guys, pretty well. you dont have to splash blue for cavern harpy if you want to run him. only disadvantage is he a one use spell. cavern harpy gives you card advantage cause you can bounce him and use him again.)

Yixlid Jailer (badass against ichorid. seems like your hard match much)




Dark Vial:
Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mesemeric Fiend
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Putrid Leech
2 Cavern Harpy

Spells:
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Vindicate
4 Path to Exile

Artifacts:
3 Aether Vial
1 Umezawas Jitte

Lands:
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Underground sea
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Tomb of Urborg

lots of tricks. im going to give it a spin whether or not anyone agrees. i think more vial though. at least the 4th in the board to side in against control. the tricky thing is manipulating the opponents hand. if you exile dreadnought with a creature and then get rid of stifle with other discard, you could bounce the creature sculler/fiend to your hand so you could pick a better target. such as hitting creatures when you are out of removal, and such. i think its a pretty imo resource, but only deserving of 1 or 2. you dont want to hit multiples cause they aren't necessary. it will be impossible to remove to cause you can just bounce it in response to removal.


thoughts?


EDIT:
also, some thoughts on deed. i dont think you want it. it takes out all your exile card guys (fiend/sculler) and vial, and your creatures, and jitte. i think EE is a better choice.

Thanks for the ideas...I really like the Pridemage idea,and think that I will test him as a 3 of in the main.But I think you mis understoop what I was saying about the tombstalkers and dar rituals.I was just telling that dude that sometimes against certain match ups you can utilize DARK RITUAL and tombstalker fast enough to put them on 4 turns.I didn't mean that this is how the deck runs.I tested the following and did not like at all:
1. Putrid Leech-Too much damage trying to keep him alive
2.Path to Exile-I llike wasteland,and vindicate..so this just Sucks to give them more land when I'm trying to gain tempo.IMO
But I will say that again I really like Pridemage in the list..He just seems Broken with vial down @2...Endstep GET SOME!...Not really sold the the whole Cavern Harppy thing though...It seems a bit too tricky,but I will test your theory and let you know the results of my testing.I mean I am A JEDI KNIGHT:laugh: Lastly,about the Deed's in the board:I agree that they can fuck up all my shit on the table,but in a pinch they will save your ass!I can't count how many times I've won games on the back of Deed!I have tested with E.E and it does just as good a job as Deed,but the rituals can accel. a deed early enough to be better.again Thank you for the feedback,I Enjoyed the fuck out of it..no shitting!and remember that everything I said was just IMO.
Playin Jedi Mind tricks

I can say from experiance Dredge is a very winnable match:Games one is a little rough,but can be won.Games two and three yo can easily blow them out with deeds,and leylines

[Vacrix]

Thanks for the ideas...I really like the Pridemage idea,and think that I will test him as a 3 of in the main.But I think you mis understoop what I was saying about the tombstalkers and dar rituals.I was just telling that dude that sometimes against certain match ups you can utilize DARK RITUAL and tombstalker fast enough to put them on 4 turns.I didn't mean that this is how the deck runs.I tested the following and did not like at all:
1. Putrid Leech-Too much damage trying to keep him alive
2.Path to Exile-I llike wasteland,and vindicate..so this just Sucks to give them more land when I'm trying to gain tempo.IMO
But I will say that again I really like Pridemage in the list..He just seems Broken with vial down @2...Endstep GET SOME!...Not really sold the the whole Cavern Harppy thing though...It seems a bit too tricky,but I will test your theory and let you know the results of my testing.I mean I am A JEDI KNIGHT Lastly,about the Deed's in the board:I agree that they can fuck up all my shit on the table,but in a pinch they will save your ass!I can't count how many times I've won games on the back of Deed!I have tested with E.E and it does just as good a job as Deed,but the rituals can accel. a deed early enough to be better.again Thank you for the feedback,I Enjoyed the fuck out of it..no shitting!and remember that everything I said was just IMO.
Playin Jedi Mind tricks

I can say from experiance Dredge is a very winnable match:Games one is a little rough,but can be won.Games two and three yo can easily blow them out with deeds,and leylines

personally, i dont think you want wasteland/vindicate tricks on land. i think your aggro matchup should be the primary. your control matchup seems dam good preboard already, and you have alot of options to prepare for it post board via vexing shusher, more man-exile creatures, etc. so yea i dont think manipulating mana should be your issue. you manipulate the hand really well via your exile guys and discard. dont you think you should devote more deckspace to dealing with aggro? you will be playing against control in such a way that you can take care of their hand to protect your guys so you can swing in for the win. then use your removal to deal with their threats. of course i dont have the play experience to back up your efficiency against control but i think you have a good matchup and i recall your earlier posts saying that you havent had trouble with those matchups preboard, and postboard you bring in more threats like choke. additionally, if right now mono red burn is your only bad matchup, a blue splash gives you Chill man. no card is more chill against burn then Chill (with the exception of ivory mask). if you have or create board space, seems like a decent choice.


about the tombstalker thing. im down for him and all, but when you risk flipping him with Bob, im not down. i like playing him in a man plan for combo, but i just dont think you need him. if you really have so much that you could be removing to play him, why not just run jotun grunt? he can be vialed and thats just a bitch for aggro once they declare attackers. you cant do that with tombstalker. same case for leech with the exception that they could have removal for him cause you can only pump him once per turn. but grunt is undeniably a good vial-in once your opponents declare attackers. also you can fuck with ichorid and threshold pretty well with it. i just think its an overall good choice, and that the deck doesnt run enough to justify flipping a ritual and it always being good. if you ran alot of black stuff, and N. shade, and tombstalker, i'd think you should run it. you just dont have enough IMO to run it. its the danger of cool things. tombstalker is cool, but not with 4 bob, and only if you have D. Rit and only if D. rit is justifable in from my perspective it isnt. i can see random synergy with other stuff like deed, and vindicate but im not sold. i think i'd much rather be drawing putrid leech and smashing for 4 a turn against control. and if i draw leech against aggro, vialing him in is practically destroy target creature, cause you are blocking his shit when he has no idea you can vial him in. granted if your opponent has a removal spell leech fizzles, which is why you play discard. but grunt is not the case.

also, consider that if your strength is in vial, your opponent might just run pithing needle. ive seen it done to me. hence you are even more justified to run those pridemages. just something to think about. it might be a better board card.

honestly i can see your dredge match up being good, but dont you want to make your opponent dredge alot of shit, and then just lose to a vialed in yixilid jailer? seems pretty badass to me.

[Jedi Knight]

Agreed!I love thought of running 3 Pridemage in the main!Especailly for needles...But I do use vindicate and M.Pulse for a range of other targets like,Planeswalkers,pesky creatures,needles and basically whatever the fuck I want to blow up. I agree that tombdaddy's a bitch on the flip with bob,but it rarely happens as he's only a two of...with the roll of finishing the game.Also that's why I like STP better than path b/c sometimes I use STP to stay afloat on the life with bob out killing me or against aggro decks.Like I sais,I will test out much of your list at the Kitchen Table and see how it does in the gauntlet...Thanks for your feedback:smile:

[Vacrix]

Agreed!I love thought of running 3 Pridemage in the main!Especailly for needles...But I do use vindicate and M.Pulse for a range of other targets like,Planeswalkers,pesky creatures,needles and basically whatever the fuck I want to blow up. I agree that tombdaddy's a bitch on the flip with bob,but it rarely happens as he's only a two of...with the roll of finishing the game.Also that's why I like STP better than path b/c sometimes I use STP to stay afloat on the life with bob out killing me or against aggro decks.Like I sais,I will test out much of your list at the Kitchen Table and see how it does in the gauntlet...Thanks for your feedback

hmm.. has the life loss been that intense? i'd figure you could get advantage so quickly that you could just overpower the opponent, especially if you get bob down. i mean its more likely then not you will be flipping 0 or 2. so if you have 20 land and about 20 to drops you should be losing about 1 life per turn. with fetches and leech i can see that as getting to be a little close. personally im all for sacrificing a little health for a little speed. i think that your guys in conjunction are stronger than tombstalker. if you have jotun grunt out with a goyf and you have removal, is that 1/1 and flying worth the extra space? grunt is beastly and empties reanimator and thresh's grave. i see it doing more damage, especially off vial, thats really the important part. you cant vial in stalker, and you lose 2 life vs. 8 life on the bob flip.

also, i came to the conclusion of path over STP cause of the suicide like build. my thought process was that you want to win fast when you gain the high ground, and STP hinders that. with the lifeloss from leech and bob you would just wind up killing yourself instead so i dropped it in favor of path. that might be a mistake. i can see vindicate and wasteland tricks bein pretty nice. the only thing with LD like that is in my experience it doesnt work all the time. besides, how much does it really help you? also if you really want to stick to that strat, i would go with more vindicate and less pulse. pulse cant hit land, so thats pretty significant if you draw the wrong one at the right time. if you are more committed to it, it seems rational that you will be more consistent with the LD, otherwise its an inconsistent surprise. i dont really have experience so i dont know what works for you. if LD is a commodity i suggest you run path to exile. maybe even mishra's factory over wasteland. that would improve the aggro matchup. 2/2 lands are pretty legit when they can block for 3, and you can activate them cause you are vialing shit into play. i see you winning more games with exile and factory but i'll do some testing myself anyway cause i like your concept. keep the testing rolling. im curious as to how this turns out. :cool:

EDIT:
played with this list on MWS tonight, once, but it worked really well. like, really well against control.
this was my list:

Dark Vial:
Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mesemeric Fiend
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Putrid Leech
4 Jotun Grunt

Spells:
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Vindicate
4 Path to Exile

Artifacts:
3 Aether Vial
1 Umezawas Jitte

Lands:
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Tomb of Urborg

SB:
4 Choke
11 open slot

my opponent was playing some sort of control variant with force, faeiries, jitte, standstill, factories, daze, brainstorm, fire//ice, and goyf. it was a weird thresh variant. i raped him game one by just over powering him with threats. he countered thoughtseize with daze off a brainstorm, then countered sculler. once i dropped putrid leech, he tried to kill my guy with a grim lavamancer, i path to exile'd his guy in response, proceeded to smash face the next turn with a factory and leech, he kept on tapping leech in response to my scullers with fire//ice, so it took a while for me to get alot of damage in. lifeloss wasnt an issue at all, he was always at far less. i kept the scullers rolling. 8 effects was dank. but i never drew fiend. only scullers. all 4 in both games. weird, but legit as hell. i smashed face once i got the protection for goyf to resolve via scullers and knowing his hand. he concedes and we go to the next game. i get an opening hand of choke, confidant, sculler, goyf, vial, and 2 land. he counters vial, he lets confidant resolve, i play sculler, and remove something. he plays goyf, i draw path. i play choke once i know his hand is clear and it seals the game. i keep the scullers rolling and he cant draw anything to win. eventually he gets a goyf, but i drew my jitte, was it was over from there. grunt was never played as i never had enough white mana. i think the mana base needs more white via savannah. i wanted to go sculler, then grunt, but i couldnt cause of factory. other than that, both games were a breeze. i think in general control will have problems cause every creature is a threat. running those exile guys has really been saving my ass though cause they can hold a jitte, and thats pretty impo. also, i should note that jitte would have been really good if i had drawn it earlier, so i want another one in the MD, i think you were right in running 2. i just dont want to run into 2, and i think its a good endgame breaker. as for vial, i didnt see it in game 1, and i wanted it. why not 4? not good in multiples?

[Jedi Knight]

@Varcrix:Hell ya brotha!We usually just HULK SMASH blue decks..Thanks for testing the deck and giving it a shot.I still think you should add +1Jitte,as you said you were thinking about it.I only like three vials b/c sometimes they are horrible top decks at mid-late games.Thats my only beef with four.The fourth could possibly go to the board,with a higher creature count in the sideboard.I tested one of YOUR tricks last night Hence:Quasali Pridemage!He was a Beatdown.Makes my Goyfs bigger in a Goyf battle,1/1Turd Fiends become legit swingers,and lastly blowing shit up at end step out of nowwhere was busted...I played against Dreadstill 5 sets....Went 4-1 Pre-board!Quite a few times I played end step vial in Pridemage? Blow up your Dreadnaught you just worked so hard for!,or blow up countertalance..WOOT..I;m really starting to dig this guy ALOT!About the Savannah's..Meh,tested for a while with 2 in main deck,but found that I really like having black mana sources early with out any fumbles on land drops.With hym,thoughtsieze,tombdaddy,bob,fiend.I can see how you would want G/W mana with an early grunt.As for vindicate..I realy like taking out planeswalkers with it!The M.Pulse could be changed to another vincicate,but as for now it suites my local meta game...where elspeth and decree of justice seem popular,and never mind belcher with game one turn1 PUKE out twelve goblin tokens...This is why i like 1 Malestrom Pulse.Remember I'm really not trying to use vindicate as a land D. spell,more of a removal spell for whatever I wan't,yes sometimes a land,but not usually.As far as tombdaddy goes...Well What can I say he helps beat aggro decks.You don't need to vial him in!A quick Goyf and quick Tombstalker can single handedly smash GOBO's,Merfolk,and Zoo.Especially if you draw one of your TWO jitte's.I know they can sting scouger your TDADDY,but in my experience,you will most likely just re-cast him next turn and laugh,as they just used MATRON to go get Sting Scouger.
Thanks again for the feedback!
I'm going to a local tourney tonight,and I'm gonna test out Pridemage.I'll give a brief report when I get home tonight with the results.
Blowin Bluberries:wink:

[whienot]

Interesting concept. Reanimate/Unearth both look pretty good here since you have so many 2cc dudes. Reanimating 'seized Goys can be a game winner.

Also, I would suggest Pithing Needle in the board if you see some amount of Engineered Explosives in your meta. Reanimate helps here, too.

[Jedi Knight]

Interesting concept. Reanimate/Unearth both look pretty good here since you have so many 2cc dudes. Reanimating 'seized Goys can be a game winner.

Also, I would suggest Pithing Needle in the board if you see some amount of Engineered Explosives in your meta. Reanimate helps here, too.

Reanimate does sound interesting!!!I think I will test with it at the Kithchen table first...Bringing back just about any of my dudes for two life sounds great.Unearth doesn't sound all that appealing to me b/c they also get a dude back if there is one in the bin.I'll have to think about that one some more.ohh yeah I get it now taking their goyf after thoughtsiezeing it to the bin!!!Yes even better now.OK I will test a few reanimates to see how effective they are....Sounds really good.By the way needle is in the board as a 3 of now!making sure E.E. doesn't FUCK my day up.
Thanks for the feedback
Bobby H.

[Vacrix]

here are a few playtesting reports from MWS:


g1 vs. grinding station.dec

we played one game. i played a confidant on turn 2 with a savannah and urborg, followed it up by destroying his grinding station on the following turn with vindicate, proceeded to take the game with goyf's, a second confidant, and 3 mishra's factories, along with jotun grunt and path to exile in my hand. he didnt want to play game 2. ideally, he wanted to play urza's factory, mine, and powerplant, so wasteland would have been a far better choice than factory in this case, however, i did wind up winning fast due to factory beat down. also, he milled me for 3 in response to my vindicate with grinding station, making my goyf a 5/6.


g1 vs. bant LD with natural order and goyf
in game one he has 3 noble hierarch's and keeps trying to play more creature. i steal them from him in his end step when he draws them, and kill a goyf with vindicate, eventually i stablize and win at 4 life through jotun grunts.

g2
thoughtseize natural order. he wastes my scrublands. i play mishra's factory. i draw aether vial. i know he has icestorm in hand. vial looks like its going to save my ass. he plays icestorm to kill my factory. i take a quick break to go to the broom, and he quits on me. it was a pretty iffy whether i would have won. i had a fiend, sculler, goyf in hand, and a vial on the table. he only had a llanowar elves and a hierarch, and forest in hand. i think i clearly had the high ground. i could wait until his draw step and steal his next few turns, while then going for goyf. i would have drawn into more land and deed so i think that his little guys would be toast if it became necessary. anyway, im confidant . in playing first if we went to game 3.


g1. vs. bant exalted aggro
got overrun by bant aggro. seriously i got beaten to a pulp. all his guys amounted to too much of a threat, namely from rafiq the many. i didnt draw a discard spell but had i done so the game might have gone differently from there. once he comes down, you should lose if you cant get rid of him, and i couldnt.

g2. i had deed, vindicate, exile, goyf and some land. i managed to start blowing up his stuff every time he played something until he got wall of denial in play, then i played deed and proceeded to wait for him to over commit. once 3 things came down i blew the board in his end step, and then proceeded to play my own beaters. jotun grunts. he exiled one of them with his own path to exile, and played a creature, which i vindicated, then i drew a 2nd mishra's factory, and had grunt and 2 factory on the table, vindicate, and path to exile in hand, he plays an angel, and i quickly take the game.

game 3. i have to mull to 5, but play vial, with jitte and choke in hand with deed. looking good. i drew 2 chokes, and he played no islands even though i saw some in the earlier games. either way, bad board choice. anyway, he takes the game with his sheer number of threats. every time he played something i had a problem. deed saved my ass in this game, but i didnt wind up winning it. i need to find some solution to bant aggro.dec. i must say in my testing in these matchups, deed with factory has been beyond nice. especially when factory picks up a jitte. i really wanted to play with pridemage in this matchup. his pridemage blew up my jitte and basically sealed the game for him. otherwise i could pick off his little guys one by one while i swung in with factory. i drew all the wrong stuff at the wrong time and got beaten to a pulp.


g1. vs. zoo.
he mulls to 4, i play vial, hymn, and sculler fiend tricks. he folds.

g2. he plays lava mancer, and hellspark elemental. i manage to stablize with deed, but at too low of life. i play out some discard guys, he has too much burn in hand, and finishes me off with fireblast.

g3 i have 2 vindicate, grunt, fiend, and 3 lands. he overpowers me with creatures and burn.


g1. vs. scepter chant
i play turn 1 scrubland, turn 2, confidant, turn 3 hymn. turn 4 he plays ischron scepter with orims chant. i vindicate it, with goyf, fiend, path to exile, grunt, and Bob in hand, he quits. he had 2 cards in hand, i had 5. looks like i took that game. im confidant i would have won the 2nd one too.


g1. vs control variant
he mulls to 6. 2 wastelands in hand off my thoughtseize. i kept a one land hand. BAD idea. i wait a few turns, draw factory. i concede go to next game, but i shouldnt have because my next 5 cards were land, and he used his wastelands. probably should have won that game, either way he quit.


g1. vs. weird retract + glimpse of nature.dec
i play sculler, after he tries to combo off, he fizzles, i take his mystical tutor, then hymn to tourach him. seal the game with fast beats.

g2, i get a one land hand, but i dont see his wasteland so i keep it cause i have vial and 2 sculler. i figure that will mess him up a lot. i wind up drawing a 2nd vial, and a fiend, i resolve 1 in his draw step taking chrome mox, and then resolve 2 in his draw step taking land grant and glimpse of nature. he folds.


g1 vs. goblins Rb
he has a slow hand, my exile guys slow him down alot. he wastes my land slowing himself down. i play confidant to draw some lands. i only have 2 now from waste. i draw into more thoughtseize action. im stuck on only 2 land, big problem. he starts incinerating my dudes. eventually i stablize from my discard. he cant get anything down. and he quits because he 'has to go'. i look at the next 4 turns, and i DEFINETLY took the game from there cause i would start having the opportunity to play out fatties that he really couldnt deal with, and cast my vindicates on his shit.


g1. vs. salvager + painters servant
he keeps a dank hand of double Etutor, LED, salvager, painters servant, lotus petal, plains. i thoughtseize for his painters servant. he plays out salvagers and LED, i vindicate his salvagers, but he has E tutor in hand. he concedes when i get 2 confidant.

g2. i keep a 1 land hand, but it has double sculler, double vindicate. sure enough i draw another land, and sculler away e tutor. he has 2. that means he can search for painters servant and play it. luckily i have 2 path to exile in hand, so he is done for. i remove it eot. i play another sculler, take ritual of restoration. i then vindicate his grindstone. i play sculler not hitting anything cause he is holding city. he then draws and plays a salvager, which i path to exile, and he concedes. i show him vindicate, goyf, jotun grunt, and confidant.


this is the list i was running:

Dark Vial:
Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mesemeric Fiend
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Putrid Leech
4 Jotun Grunt

Spells:
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Hymn To Tourach
4 Vindicate
4 Path to Exile

Artifacts:
3 Aether Vial
1 Umezawas Jitte

Lands:
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB:
3 Choke
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Engineered Plague
3 Yixilid Jailer

im probably going to drop leech and a few grunts for pridemages. they seem like they will get shit done. the 1 savannah has been a really impo ad. havent had the opportunity to use Eplague yet or jailer, but so far choke wasnt good (only cause it was a bad board choice. im thinking about dropping it for vexing shusher but im not sure. the aggro matchup has been pretty bad for me so far, namely against bant, and zoo. they are just too fast and have too many threats. also, im thinking about cutting the exile creatures to 6 guys, 4 sculler, and 2 fiend, putting 2 fiend in the board for the control/combo matchups because they are indispensable in those matchups. i havent been liking hymn too much except against control. i think that hymn could be a nice board card but i havent been liking it in the MD. 4 vindicate saved my ass more often than hymn did.

so im thinking

out
- 2 fiend
- 3 hymn to tourach

in
+3 swords to plowshares
+2 qualsi pridemage

my justification? i want pridemage, and i want more creature removal. i have had way too much discard in general and ive had quite a few enchantments/artifacts i would like to remove. im just not cut out for the aggro matchup. i think that the aggro matchup should be the primary focus. you have a decent matchup against control preboard, removing the discard opens you up to the combo matchup, but rarely have i seen combo. i think you should prepare for control in the board instead of preparing for aggro. ill test this change and see what happens.

in the mean time, thoughts?



EDIT:
also, considering how many times i wish i had M.pulse over vindicate, im definetly switching going to try M.pulse. too many times in bant aggro did he have more than 1 hierarch and that was what was kicking my ass. i havent found myself wanting to target lands anyway cause im not running wasteland.




g1. vs. U/W vial. [S] Forbiddian
long ass games first of all. game 1 was a good 25 to 30 turns long. we started by exchanging card advantage, he countering my shit, and i removing his creatures. eventually i got 2 goyfs on the table, he played grunt and ate my goyf's til they were 1/2's. i basically lost from there on.

g2. i board in choke in place of vial. vial wasnt very good so i boarded it out.
i start with thoughtseize and he mulled to 5, so i took vial, he plays wayfarer, then i double thoughtseize the following turn. i get goyf down and start teh beats. eventually he gets 2 wayfarer out and goes to 4 life. i play M.pulse and eliminate his blockers to seal the game.

g3. i keep a land with 4 land anticpating mad weathered wayfarer/wasteland tricks. kinda a good idea. it started well, but he got too much shit on the table. we exchanged card advantage for a while, until i played choke. it worked pretty well, but he had a vial so he could still play creatures. i drew only land and thoughtseize so i died to enemy jotun grunts.

the matchup was pretty bad on my side. he had better tricks with vial and wayfarer, and card advantage via ancestral vision.

[Forbiddian]

Was GGs.

I'll cash in some thoughts about the deck after my club meeting, but I wanted to say I think the deck looks pretty solid.

I think it needs one more good creature printed/discovered before it can go one way or the other. Tidehollow Sculler is somewhere in between a slightly-improved Thoughtseize and a toned down Grizzly Bear, depending on the situation. Mesmeric Fiend really doesn't belong in the deck, I think. It's a "2 for 1 in theory" but in practice the 1/1 body just doesn't do anything and is a weak link in the disruption element.

It came up once today where I could just shoot it with Jitte and it effectively did nothing, but it made me think that it's just a bad card. Even if it works, it's just a duress for 1B that can ping your opponent for 1. At worst, it's a 1B duress that just hides your opponent's game-breaking material until he's ready to cast it.

[Vacrix]

agreed. fiend was dead, but against you. in other control matchups its been really dank. i think the primary reason you want the 1/1 body is jitte, and im only running one, hence the problem. i like sculler alot. beats for 2 has been good in a lot of matchups. i looked up quite a few 2cc creatures so i dont think there is much else to be discovered. i still think bant sureblade is dank, but it requires more putrid leech and multi color in general. creature base change could support it:
2 pridemage
4 putrid leech
4 dark confidant
4 sculler
4 goyf
4 bant sureblade

-1 maelstrom pulse

-1 pulse to fit in more creatures. not sure how solid it is, but im thinking that rancor fits in here nicely. on leech, it makes his -2 life +2/+2 ability much more attractive. even grunt and goyf. seems like it would improve the aggro matchup in that you will be able to beat goyfs, and trade with your smaller guys. sureblade looks really good against zoo as long as it says alive.

thoughts?

[badjuju]

The more I look at you guys hammer at this list, the more I begin to ask myself: why don't you just play Eva Green? It packs more widespread disruption, harder hitting creatures, much stronger turn 1 plays, and capitalizes on tempo.

-Jotun Grunt has massive anti-synergy w/ Goyf, especially in a 4/4 combination.
-The advantages to running white are Pridemage, Sword, Vindicate, and Sculler. In comparison with Eva Green, you get Grip (or Seal of Primordium), Snuff Out, Pulse, Wasteland, and Sinkhole. In other words, virtually no loss, but the gain of strong ritual plays which allows you to decimate your opponent very early on without the reliance on Vial and weaker beaters.
-You amass a large amount of 2-drops that are efficient, yes, but imo Tombstalker and team just pack a bigger punch when backed by powerful early-game disruption.

That's just my opinion though. The board doesn't even offer anything in white, so the reasons that justify adding the splash just keep becoming null.

[Jedi Knight]

Much agreed!!!my friend..much agreed....I like the list alot that your trying but I really don't like J.Grunt!tonight I tested Pridemage,and let me tell you something...this mother fucker FuckS things up..I destroyed a total of 2I.scepters w/price to progress!1 Ensnaring bridge,1counterbalance,and 1 vial...By far huge imrovement on the deck by far..I played 3 m/d and cut 1 mes.fiend,1hym to torach,and 1thoughtsieze. Not sure about the thoughtsieze cut though?? could -1 tombstalker +1thoughtsieze...still debating.I REALLY hate the mon red burn matchup,that seems to be the new thing in my area..I have been getting PONED by nooby ass turd's bashing me w/BAD mono red burn decks!!!!Need something in board to deal w/that problem besides COP RED.Anyway totally think it's awesome that you guys are helping me with idea's to make this deck better than it already is.I'm tellin you the singelton Malestrom Pule is tittie's in a clutch moment!!!!Should def. test with it.I also think you should really try to fit in the second Jitte m/d,at least give it a try!I think you will be happy about how much more you see it.
I'll test some Putrid leeches and let you guy's know what I think about them.But Def. Pridemage makes the cut!

EDIT: I would also like to really stress adding the 1-2 Tombstalkes in the M/D..If aggro was so hard on you...don't you think dropping a quick Tarmogoyf,and Tombstalker is a bomb especially if you have Jitte?Just talking from my experiance of playing the deck,I mean against tribal decks he's a tank w/evasion.Against zoo he's a removal target,or a 2 for one on their side,and on oyur side if not dealt with via evasion HE'S a TANK.All of this is just IMO.But I definitely think he's worth testing if you guy's are testing the deck.
Alright,thanks for the feedback I'll be testing the shit out of our lists and see which way I realy like it best..Peace(CUZ IM DA BOSS)

[Forbiddian]

-The advantages to running white are Pridemage, Sword, Vindicate, and Sculler. In comparison with Eva Green, you get Grip (or Seal of Primordium), Snuff Out, Pulse, Wasteland, and Sinkhole. In other words, virtually no loss, but the gain of strong ritual plays which allows you to decimate your opponent very early on without the reliance on Vial and weaker beaters.

The difference between this and Eva Green is basically the addition of white and then the consequences of that change. Adding another color doesn't prevent you from playing cards that are green or black. This deck could run Snuff Out, Wasteland, and Sinkhole, if those cards were good enough.

If you're going to make an argument against adding a color, it should be about nonbasic hate vulnerability, potential for color screw, forcing the addition of extra lands. These are real points to bring up, but pretending that white doesn't add anything is just stupid.

Swords to Plowshares. End of discussion on if white adds anything.


Edit:


JEDI KNIGHT, WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU SAYING?

[Jedi Knight]

Was GGs.

I'll cash in some thoughts about the deck after my club meeting, but I wanted to say I think the deck looks pretty solid.

I think it needs one more good creature printed/discovered before it can go one way or the other. Tidehollow Sculler is somewhere in between a slightly-improved Thoughtseize and a toned down Grizzly Bear, depending on the situation. Mesmeric Fiend really doesn't belong in the deck, I think. It's a "2 for 1 in theory" but in practice the 1/1 body just doesn't do anything and is a weak link in the disruption element.

It came up once today where I could just shoot it with Jitte and it effectively did nothing, but it made me think that it's just a bad card. Even if it works, it's just a duress for 1B that can ping your opponent for 1. At worst, it's a 1B duress that just hides your opponent's game-breaking material until he's ready to cast it.
'
The readon I like fiend is that hes not mana intensive,and comes in early of dark rituals,along with thoughsieze.Also having IMO 6 silver bullets in the maindeck VIA aether vial is just broken against combo,BLue control decks,threshold variants,god damn just about every fucking match up their bombs @ instant speed.Just my opinion though,also is due mostky to my local META..
Thanks for the feedback.

[Jedi Knight]

The difference between this and Eva Green is basically the addition of white and then the consequences of that change. Adding another color doesn't prevent you from playing cards that are green or black. This deck could run Snuff Out, Wasteland, and Sinkhole, if those cards were good enough.

If you're going to make an argument against adding a color, it should be about nonbasic hate vulnerability, potential for color screw, forcing the addition of extra lands. These are real points to bring up, but pretending that white doesn't add anything is just stupid.

Swords to Plowshares. End of discussion on if white adds anything.


Edit:

Agreed on swords!

[badjuju]

The difference between this and Eva Green is basically the addition of white and then the consequences of that change. Adding another color doesn't prevent you from playing cards that are green or black. This deck could run Snuff Out, Wasteland, and Sinkhole, if those cards were good enough.

If you're going to make an argument against adding a color, it should be about nonbasic hate vulnerability, potential for color screw, forcing the addition of extra lands. These are real points to bring up, but pretending that white doesn't add anything is just stupid.

Swords to Plowshares. End of discussion on if white adds anything.


Edit:

So you're going to water down the original gameplan of Eva Green (tempo and disruption) by adding in white cause Swords is going to fix all your problems?

Like really, if you're going to get technical, then yes, adding a color will increase your vulnerability to non-basic hate. You cannot run Wasteland, nor can you abuse the power of turn 1 ritual plays. The way your deck plays out, you cannot capitalize on your disruption unless you have vial out. You run a cast of bears, which in today's metagame, will get crushed by Zoo. Even JEDI KNIGHT was already talking about putting Tombstalker back in.

When I listed white cards and then green/black cards, I was basically pointing out the Eva Green counterparts that basically render the addition of white pointless. Snuff Out, Wasteland, and Sinkhole are used because they ARE good enough and hone in on a very powerful strategy. Your argument is that white brings all these amazing "consequences" to the table. Sure, it does - but is this the most successful way to approach a primarily G/B aggro/control deck?

[Jedi Knight]

So you're going to water down the original gameplan of Eva Green (tempo and disruption) by adding in white cause Swords is going to fix all your problems?

Like really, if you're going to get technical, then yes, adding a color will increase your vulnerability to non-basic hate. You cannot run Wasteland, nor can you abuse the power of turn 1 ritual plays. The way your deck plays out, you cannot capitalize on your disruption unless you have vial out. You run a cast of bears, which in today's metagame, will get crushed by Zoo. Even JEDI KNIGHT was already talking about putting Tombstalker back in.

When I listed white cards and then green/black cards, I was basically pointing out the Eva Green counterparts that basically render the addition of white pointless. Snuff Out, Wasteland, and Sinkhole are used because they ARE good enough and hone in on a very powerful strategy. Your argument is that white brings all these amazing "consequences" to the table. Sure, it does - but is this the most successful way to approach a primarily G/B aggro/control deck?

I have been testing extremely,and I will conclude that the only changes to my OP. have been -1 Chainers Edict -1 Thoughtsieze -1 Mes. Fiend To +3 Quasali Pridemage..He's a FUCKING house that can turn games on the dime!
anyway,I LOVE TOMBDADDY and will always take eight off the bob flip for him!B/C I'm doing to drop him down by that time anyway,and that's from some serious testing..He comes down very quickly if NEEDED.Just IMO
thanks guys

EDIT:I only run 4 STP,and two VINDICATE for white...sometimes COP RED in the board to deal with ZOO and FUCKING MONO-RED TURDS..

[Jedi Knight]

I would lke to say that I just tested the fuck out of every diff. creature,you guy's recomended!My conclusion is that cavern harpy SUCKS..Putrid Leech was OK,but I still don't like the life loss trying to keep him alive.Jotun Grunt was pretty bad all around the table..I mean he's so anti-goyf!I know he is a huge blocker off the vial but ither than that he just fucks with you tombstalkers,and tarmogoyfs.I REALLY think Quasali Pridemage is the real deal!This mother fuckers a BOMB,like I have said earlier in the post after someone recomended him.I would realy like to keep this deck close to the OP,with the exception of 3 M/D Pridemages.