[Free Article] The Legacy Conundrum

[voltron00x]

In this week's article, I expand on my "Creating a Legacy" article from a few weeks back by diving a little deeper into Legacy. I take a look at the Legacy metagame, recapping developments from GP: Columbus in 2007 through to today. One of my objectives is to show that there is plenty of rhyme and reason to the national Legacy metagame, and claims to the contrary are incorrect. I also discuss the challenges that exist when selecting a Legacy deck, discuss the broadness of the format, and then take a look at some update versions of existing decks (Natural Order Rock, Painter, and Entomb Hulk).


With some large Legacy events still looming on the horizon in 2009, I hope you find these thoughts useful...

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18229_The_Long_Winding_Road_The_Legacy_Conundrum.html

[FoulQ]

Wow. Great article man, and a fun read. Just two things I would say,

...from a writing standpoint, the natural order rock thing seems a little random, but I can see that there is no other real spot for it.

...I'm not so sure on the painter deck you posted. Firstly, if dreadnought is so weak in the modern meta, then what makes painter's servant any better? I would think that deck would be a horrible choice in today's metagame. Not only is mana denial strategies on the rise (as it can combat all of zoo, countertop, and combo, and can always come in handy), but the painter combo dies to a million things. Playing 1 mountain and 3 ways to fetch them really makes no sense to me, as in zoo...you have around 8 ways to fetch a basic forest, 4-5 to fetch a basic plains (in addition to the actual basic land), and 4-5 ways to fetch a basic mountain. I'm also not feeling Fact or Fiction in the format currently but that's just me: you will get your mana denialed/dazed by merfolk/thresh, you will already be on the ropes against zoo/goblins/combo. Eh, you've been playing them for a while I know so it must be working for you. I just don't see the point in playing a list that has more vulnerabilities than a traditional countertop list.

...also don't forget about warren instigator in goblins. He has revitalized the archetype. I think you will see that the deck is not as bad against zoo as you think. The deck is surprisingly consistent as well. But I'm biased.

[Forbiddian]

Any relation to Skaff?

[Tinefol]

The whole range of 'real' (unlike CB/Top) control decks (Landstill mainly) doesn't even get a single mention. That's too narrow of a view on Legacy metagame.

[MMogg]

The whole range of 'real' (unlike CB/Top) control decks (Landstill mainly) doesn't even get a single mention. That's too narrow of a view on Legacy metagame.


The control decks of the format are fractured: various CB/Top control decks, Landstill, Dreadstill, and Planeswalker control all share some elements but are clearly distinct archetypes.

Reading: savage tech!

[voltron00x]

Foul Q - Unlike Dreadnought, Painter isn't a completely dead card without Stifle, and unless you're playing poorly you shouldn't get 2-for-1'd just because you have Painter in play. At a minimum, he blocks one- and two-power attackers (like Lackey, Confidant, and Mishra's Workshop). He also enables easier Force of Wills and powers up REBs. That doesn't mean that Painter is a "good" strategy in a Zoo-dominated meta, but switching from 'Noughts to Goyfs as a back-up win condition makes more sense. Dreadnought is far too likely to be a pointless 2-for-1 in your opponent's favor at this point, and as I said, I feel like the value of Stifle on the whole, with Zoo being popular, isn't what it was 6-12 months ago. The Painter deck gives you some extra value because it isn't something people playtest against, and it packs an "oops, I won on turn three!" factor that CB/Top decks don't normally have. I hate to say it, but the Natural Order / Bant hybrid deck is probably a better choice at this point as it has that similar "oops, I win!" factor w/out the vulnerability to Grip and Path and other commonly played cards.

I haven't really tested Instigators yet, but I do have a Goblins list I like a lot. I think its actually still a pretty solid choice - if you look at something like the recent Meandeck Open, the most 'popular' deck is still only like 11% of the field, so if Zoo is the most popular deck Goblins can still be a terrific choice at any given event. There's never been less "hate" for it in Legacy than there is right now.

Forbiddian - No, no relation of which I'm aware.

Tinefol - I touch on those decks only briefly, not out of disrespect, but because the strategies on the whole are not seeing that much play; Dreadstill was the best-performing of that particular group until recently, for reasons discussed in the article.

[keys]

Foul Q - Unlike Dreadnought, Painter isn't a completely dead card without Stifle, and unless you're playing poorly you shouldn't get 2-for-1'd just because you have Painter in play. At a minimum, he blocks one- and two-power attackers (like Lackey, Confidant, and Mishra's Workshop). He also enables easier Force of Wills and powers up REBs. That doesn't mean that Painter is a "good" strategy in a Zoo-dominated meta, but switching from 'Noughts to Goyfs as a back-up win condition makes more sense. Dreadnought is far too likely to be a pointless 2-for-1 in your opponent's favor at this point, and as I said, I feel like the value of Stifle on the whole, with Zoo being popular, isn't what it was 6-12 months ago. The Painter deck gives you some extra value because it isn't something people playtest against, and it packs an "oops, I won on turn three!" factor that CB/Top decks don't normally have. I hate to say it, but the Natural Order / Bant hybrid deck is probably a better choice at this point as it has that similar "oops, I win!" factor w/out the vulnerability to Grip and Path and other commonly played cards.


When missing its other half, Nought still gives +2/+2 to Goyf, and removes Bridges. Grindstone mills for 2-4 a turn. +1 to Nought.

Stifle is a blue card, counters Pridemage, fetches, EE, storm, etc. Servant chumps a turn and enables REBs. Point goes to Stifle.

Both combos are disruptable by creature and/or artifact removal. But since it sticks around without Painter in play, I'll give the point to Grindstone.

Painter/Grindstone costs 6 to play and activate (generally 2-3 turns), whereas Stifle/Nought costs 1U to play and normally takes 2 or fewer turns to kill. Tie.

Looks like 2-1-1, Stifle/Nought coming out ahead on my score board.

[voltron00x]

When missing its other half, Nought still gives +2/+2 to Goyf, and removes Bridges. Grindstone mills for 2-4 a turn. +1 to Nought.

Stifle is a blue card, counters Pridemage, fetches, EE, storm, etc. Servant chumps a turn and enables REBs. Point goes to Stifle.

Both combos are disruptable by creature and/or artifact removal. But since it sticks around without Painter in play, I'll give the point to Grindstone.

Painter/Grindstone costs 6 to play and activate (generally 2-3 turns), whereas Stifle/Nought costs 1U to play and normally takes 2 or fewer turns to kill. Tie.

Looks like 2-1-1, Stifle/Nought coming out ahead on my score board.

Except you're scoring the completely wrong thing (and not even scoring it fairly, I might add). You're scoring Painter components vs Dreadnought components. His question was more, why bother with Painter if Dreadnought is vulnerable? You're arguing Dreadstill vs Painter, basically.

The question was that if Dreadnought is vulnerable, then isn't Painter just as vulnerable (if not moreso)? This is more or less a fair statement, but diversifying the threats between Goyf and Painter helps address this (in addition to the fact that MD CB + Top helps protect the combo).

What I did was substitute Goyf for Dreadnought, because Stifle isn't as good, Wasteland wasn't panning out in the deck (b/c with 21 lands but 3 Wasteland, I really only had 18 mana sources) and isn't that great against Zoo, and I wanted a win condition that wasn't vulnerable to cards people were already bringing in against me (such as Grip & Grudge). Goyf helps fix all of those problems.

Grindstone by itself is good with Top, so you can Grind chaff off your own library. Painter/Grindstone can conceivably win on turn 2 (Turn 1 Tomb + Painter, Turn 2 2nd Tomb + Grindstone + Activate); Nought can't do that. Painter by itself turns REBs into 1-mana counter/Vindicates and lets you Force pitching extra land, in addition to being able to block better than Stifle the last time I checked.

While looking at the wrong argument, you also scored it incorrectly.

For example:

If Dreadnought gets stolen with Threads, you're probably toast. If Painter gets stolen with Threads, Grindstone activation still wins you the game. See also: Sower of Temptation.

If your opponent nails Grindstone or Painter with a removal spell, you're -1 card. If they do the same thing to Dreadnought, you're -2 cards.

REBs by themselves are good against CB/Top, Ichorid, Merfolk, Canadian Thresh, and ANT, making the Painter idea pretty solid, b/c that's the majority of the DTB. The Goyfs and CB/Top engine keep the deck competitive against Zoo. See also the SB, which is anti-Zoo heavy (in addition to having plenty of game against Merfolk, two decks that see the most play near me).

[Piceli89]

Gorgeous article, Voltron00x. It was nice to read again the evolution our Format has gone through these last years , and it's always a confirm to show that it is balanced and healthy.

[keys]

Except you're scoring the completely wrong thing (and not even scoring it fairly, I might add). You're scoring Painter components vs Dreadnought components. His question was more, why bother with Painter if Dreadnought is vulnerable? You're arguing Dreadstill vs Painter, basically.

If the question is, "why Painter?" then doesn't a comparison to Nought naturally follow...? Also, you started with the comparison.


diversifying the threats between Goyf and Painter helps address this (in addition to the fact that MD CB + Top helps protect the combo).


What I did was substitute Goyf for Dreadnought, because Stifle isn't as good, Wasteland wasn't panning out in the deck (b/c with 21 lands but 3 Wasteland, I really only had 18 mana sources) and isn't that great against Zoo, and I wanted a win condition that wasn't vulnerable to cards people were already bringing in against me (such as Grip & Grudge). Goyf helps fix all of those problems.

UGR Dreadstill already plays Goyf. I think you're making the incorrect comparisons.


Grindstone by itself is good with Top, so you can Grind chaff off your own library. Painter/Grindstone can conceivably win on turn 2 (Turn 1 Tomb + Painter, Turn 2 2nd Tomb + Grindstone + Activate); Nought can't do that. Painter by itself turns REBs into 1-mana counter/Vindicates and lets you Force pitching extra land, in addition to being able to block better than Stifle the last time I checked.

While looking at the wrong argument, you also scored it incorrectly.

For example:

If Dreadnought gets stolen with Threads, you're probably toast. If Painter gets stolen with Threads, Grindstone activation still wins you the game. See also: Sower of Temptation.

If your opponent nails Grindstone or Painter with a removal spell, you're -1 card. If they do the same thing to Dreadnought, you're -2 cards.

REBs by themselves are good against CB/Top, Ichorid, Merfolk, Canadian Thresh, and ANT, making the Painter idea pretty solid, b/c that's the majority of the DTB. The Goyfs and CB/Top engine keep the deck competitive against Zoo. See also the SB, which is anti-Zoo heavy (in addition to having plenty of game against Merfolk, two decks that see the most play near me).

As if your "scoring" methods are more objective than mine; I was just making points. Your Sower point isn't valuable-- I didn't include Pithing Needle or other specific cards in my analysis. I already mentioned the card disadvantage inherent in Stifle/Nought, and I wouldn't call the REB/Painter combo any better than the Landstill combo...

[keys]

I didn't "score" anything, I merely provided some counterpoints to the argument you were proposing.

oh my god. it's a metaphor, dude. thanks for the counterpoints.

[Nessaja]

Entertaining article, very much so. Nice read too, exactly what I want to read in articles about the format. I also agree the Rock list felt kind of random.. but not to the point it was annoying.

[voltron00x]

I feel like you want to debate the merits of my deck compared to Dreadstill. It might help to explain the genesis of the deck.

In my experience lately, the two most popular Legacy decks, especially in early rounds, are Merfolk and Zoo. They’re both relatively cheap, easy to play, and solid against the field. These two decks are both good against Dreadstill. Merfolk has access to, and plays, answers to Dreadnought that are devastating in Threads and Sower. Further, Merfolk has resistance to counterspells via Aether Vial, and Dreadstill is vulnerable to mana disruption played by Merfolk. Zoo is also well-positioned against CB/Top decks in general. It can deploy fast threats before CB or Standstill come down, and has plenty of answers to the CB/Top engine and Dreadnought. This helps account for the declining appearance of Dreadstill, as a strategy. Dreadnought has turned into a liability more than an asset. Mind you, there are those that believe that was ALWAYS the case, but the integration of Path and Pridemage into the format in such large numbers makes that point abundantly clear.

My old Painter list ran a mana disruption engine with Wastelands and Stifle, and played between 1 and 3 Dreadnoughts as a tutor target to score easy wins against some decks as well as to provide an out for decks where Stifle wasn’t good.

This has become a somewhat dodgy plan. Stifle isn’t particularly good against Merfolk or Zoo – again, two of the most commonly played decks – and Dreadnought is similarly bad against those decks. The same is also true of Wasteland. Because the plan of Stifle + Wasteland is such a common occurrence at this point (as Thresh has also become quite popular), decks are becoming more resistant to it (or stated differently, people are choosing decks more resistant to this strategy).

I also found that Wasteland was somewhat counterproductive in my list in the first place. The deck really wants to hit 4-5 mana to be able to fully deploy and protect threats and manage the CB/Top engine. Running 21 land with Wastelands didn’t make sense. Thus, the new list loses that mana denial engine and without Stifles, I can’t run Dreadnought.

Further, I was struggling to win games with Dreadnought as my alternate win condition because it was vulnerable to the same cards (Grudge, Grip, Path / Swords) as my other win condition, and this was a problem.

If you want to debate the merit of playing Dreadstill vs my Painter deck, that’s fine.

I like Painter for a few reasons. One, it actually has a very good occurrence of winning on turn 3 with single- or double-counter back-up. This is why I play 3 Grindstones. It is the fastest kill you can run in a CB/Top deck (outside of putting the engine into dedicated combo such as Entomb / Hulk), with the ability to win on turn 2 with the perfect draw. Two, it plays maindeck REBs, which are solid to very good against most of the DTB: CB/Top, ANT, Ichorid / Dredge, Canadian Thresh, and Merfolk. It also gives you maindeck outs to nearly every card that exists in Painter + REB. I like that flexibility. The use of red, compared to U/B/G Dreadstill, means that you can play removal spells like Bolt and Firespout against decks like Zoo (something that other CB/Top decks do as well, especially Firespout). This is the rare CB/Top deck with a positive match-up against Merfolk (I’m 6-1 against it in tournament play this year), due to the use of REBs and Bolts. Third, Painter gives you the ability to win on the spot should an opponent tap out. For instance, if you have four lands out and have Tomb + Painter + Grindstone in hand, you can win on your turn, immediately. Dreadstill does not have this capability. Saying the win costs six mana and three turns is a bit misleading, as you are often spreading the cost over two turns rather than three, but it is fully possible, in a deck with 4 Tombs, 4 Brainstorm, and 3 Top to find two Tombs and win much faster. Four, this configuration has a relatively decent Zoo match-up post board. It isn’t a deck I love playing against, but it’s probably a solid 50-50 in testing, and I beat it at Legacy Champs. Five, this strategy has built-in resistance to COMMONLY PLAYED cards in the format, notably Threads, Sower, and Shackles. Other blue control decks struggle to deal with Painter b/c they’re geared to steal your stuff. Needle is annoying, but plenty easy to get rid of. The deck plays EE, you can REB it with Painter in play, and I SB Krosan Grip. If Needle were commonly played, easy answers like Grudge are on-color, but the reality is that it doesn’t see much play. It also doesn’t stop you from just sticking a Goyf and countering removal and using REBs to clear blockers out of the way.

Does that mean that this deck is better than Dreadstill? Not at all. I never said that it was, if you want to compare cards head-to-head in the abstract. Do I think that it is relatively well-positioned against random.dec, Merfolk, and Zoo? Yes. Standstill, as a card, doesn’t seem that appealing to me in this metagame b/c Vial decks can ignore it, and Zoo plays threats before its deployed, making it sometimes a dead card. Stifle isn’t as good as it used to be. Dreadnought isn’t as good as it used to be. Numbers suggest even CB/Top itself isn’t as good as it used to be.

I already stated, above, that Counter/Top Progenitus is probably a better shell than Painter and it is almost certainly IMO a better shell than Dreadstill at this point in time. That doesn’t mean the metagame won’t turn back around, but I’m talking about the here and now, specifically.

EDIT: Your last two posts suggest you are simply trolling, so hopefully someone else will find the time I put into the response above to be useful.

[voltron00x]

Entertaining article, very much so. Nice read too, exactly what I want to read in articles about the format. I also agree the Rock list felt kind of random.. but not to the point it was annoying.

Fair enough... I had time to keep writing last week, so I figured I'd just cram in as much content as I could; as the $5K was weeks ago at this point, devoting a full article to it felt lazy to me, and Menendian and Linn already covered that tournament in detail.

I guess it might help to think of it as bonus content, albeit a bit random.

[C.P.]

Great article, I really appreciate it.

[goobafish]

Great article, I thoroughly enjoyed it. This is exactly the kind of article I am looking for to show players who want to learn about the modern Legacy metagame. Hope you continue doing Legacy content.

[Goblin Snowman]

Excellent article. I'll echo what's been said in here so far.

[SMR0079]

I like your PAinter list. I reached the same conclusions on Dreadstill as well.

A couple questions:

Why not run the full compliment of Countertop?

Why Fact or Fiction? Ancient Tomb helps you get there, but is card advantage that important? Time seems to be what you are racing agaisnt and Fact doesn't really help here.

I prefer Submerge over threads b/c. of pridemage. Adding an additonal Firespout would also help the Zoo/Gobbos/Folk match.

You mentioned that BantCountertop/NaturalPro may be a better placed for the current metagame. What matchups do you attribute this to? I"m curious as I have been swinging back and fourth between that deck and a Tempo thresh spin off that runs Lavamancers. BtW, how is the Tempo thresh matchup?


If this deck can improve it's Zoo match it could be a serious contender.

[voltron00x]

I like your PAinter list. I reached the same conclusions on Dreadstill as well.

A couple questions:

Why not run the full compliment of Countertop?

Why Fact or Fiction? Ancient Tomb helps you get there, but is card advantage that important? Time seems to be what you are racing agaisnt and Fact doesn't really help here.

I prefer Submerge over threads b/c. of pridemage. Adding an additonal Firespout would also help the Zoo/Gobbos/Folk match.

You mentioned that BantCountertop/NaturalPro may be a better placed for the current metagame. What matchups do you attribute this to? I"m curious as I have been swinging back and fourth between that deck and a Tempo thresh spin off that runs Lavamancers. BtW, how is the Tempo thresh matchup?


If this deck can improve it's Zoo match it could be a serious contender.

I need to go back to testing with something else in the FoF slot. A 4th Top plus 1-2 Ponder might be enough to make sure I can still find Painter + Grindstone. The decks that FoF was good against (Landstill, Dreadstill, CB/Top) aren't seeing much play. Its just so unusual to lose when FoF resolves that I continue to hang onto it - I still can't believe a card that good doesn't see any play. The real problem isn't Zoo, but Canadian Thresh. I just can't seem to beat that deck with Painter in tournament play, although several of those loses were due to pilot error. I like this deck because its versatile and powerful but I don't like it because it asks a lot of the pilot.

I've tested with Submerge and I like it, but Threads makes the Zoo match-up even better because you can really win the Goyf war that way.

The Bant list seems like it has game against everything with an extremely good finisher in Natural Order, and its probably a better shell than that of the Rock, because you have Brainstorm and never have to worry about stranding your "big man" in your hand. I like it because its a CounterTop list with solid game against Zoo, which is basically everything you want right now.

[keys]

I already stated, above, that Counter/Top Progenitus is probably a better shell than Painter and it is almost certainly IMO a better shell than Dreadstill at this point in time. That doesn’t mean the metagame won’t turn back around, but I’m talking about the here and now, specifically.

EDIT: Your last two posts suggest you are simply trolling, so hopefully someone else will find the time I put into the response above to be useful.

Thanks for the history lesson, but why am I a troll for trying to dispute the above claim?

[Forbiddian]

Article = Best article I've read this year (on Magic/Legacy).

Informative and well written read.

[hi-val]

Thanks for the article. I like to see other people writing about Legacy too! You're in a bit better position to write "history of the format" articles than I am, simply because since you write on it less, when you write about the format it's more significant : )

I particularly liked the breakdown of what a player might encounter in the first through third turns.

[voltron00x]

Thanks for the article. I like to see other people writing about Legacy too! You're in a bit better position to write "history of the format" articles than I am, simply because since you write on it less, when you write about the format it's more significant : )

I particularly liked the breakdown of what a player might encounter in the first through third turns.

Thanks, I appreciate it... I would write about Legacy more, and always intended to, but there isn't much of a scene local to me... which is odd, because we have regular Vintage events with 30-60 people all the time.

The store I play at, Alternate Universe - Blue Bell, is having their first Legacy tournament on 11/7. I've been talking up the staff about it all year and with any luck, it will become a recurring thing. The prizes are pretty good considering this is likely to be a smallish event the first time, but if attendance is good, it will become a recurring thing, and that will make writing about Legacy much easier...

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15285

I'm definitely going to the Mox Pearl tournament in Bethlehem PA on 11/29, but I sadly will probably miss the Jupiter Games one on 11/14 (my birthday is 11/12 and apparently my gf made plans, since its my 30th birthday or whatever... I'd rather just play Magic, but it is what it is. I do also enjoy having a girlfriend...)

[TOGITwill]

Hey, from what I remember Blue Bell is only about an hour away from The Only Game In Town in Somerville, New Jersey. So if one Saturday you REALLLLLY wanted to play, you could usually find a game there.

[AnwarA101]

Choosing a deck for a Legacy tournament is a difficult decision and this article illustrates why. With so much diversity and a lack of predictability making a good decision can be hard, but this article does a great deal to high light some of the pros and cons of the major decks floating around in the metagame.

[hi-val]

On what Anwar said, is the answer possibly "play the deck that's most fun for you?"

[J.V.]

On what Anwar said, is the answer possibly "play the deck that's most fun for you?"

I think it is more of a case of play the deck that is most fun for you AND that you are most comfortable with.

[Bardo]

I loved this article. Really well done.

[jazzykat]

I think there are 3 more reasons that grindstone is sort of useful on its own.

1. You can cause some amount of havoc if an opponent has countertop down and they don't have a ton of mana yet. i.e. Mill off the cards they put on top.

2. In a LONG game you can deck the opponent without grindstone. Just think of all the fetches, brainstorms, and draw some blue decks play. You also can cause a fair amount of trouble for mono-colored decks.

3. Is somewhat of a foil vs. other painter decks.

All these reasons are sort of like hey, you can play dreadnought to destroy their bridges.

[jazzykat]

I'm definitely going to the Mox Pearl tournament in Bethlehem PA on 11/29, but I sadly will probably miss the Jupiter Games one on 11/14 (my birthday is 11/12 and apparently my gf made plans, since its my 30th birthday or whatever

I assume she doesn't read the forums ;0

[voltron00x]

Slightly revised decklists... for those that don't like Fact or Fiction. I'll admit it was out of place now that decks like Counter/Top, Landstill, Dreadstill, and variants of The Rock aren't as popular. I'm comfortable running w/out the mountain after testing. The other change is that I'm testing with one less land (cut the 4th Tomb, it isn't as good with Zoo everywhere and w/out FoF)and two Ponder.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Trinket Mage
4 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
2 Explosives
3 Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Counterbalance
3 REB
1 Academy Ruins
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Seat of the Synod

SB:

2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Bolt
1 REB
1 Pithing Needle
2 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt

Other version with Intuition package replacing Fact or Fiction:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Trinket Mage
4 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
2 Explosives
3 Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 REB
2 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Island

SB:

2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Bolt
1 REB
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt

[Jedi Knight]

DUDE,this was the BEST Legacy article I've read in a while...BY FAR!!!!!
Keep up the good work! I'll burn one down for ya...:smile: