[SCD] Chrome Mox in Aggro-Control

[deadlock]

I asked myself what exactly holds back Chrome Mox in CounterTop-Goyf decks in Legacy.

For example if you look at this NLU deck from previous Extended:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxeVlod3GXI
It runs 4 Mox along with CB and Bob.
Another example is Steve Sadin CB Flash deck, but in this case it was based on Flash's ability on turn one with Mox out.

Now in Legacy we have FoW as an additional spell which is a 2 for 1. So were would be the crictical amount of either card advantage or powerful wincondition (like Flash)?

E.g:
4 CB / Top
4 Bob

these alone are either not capabale of supporting Mox or in the most cases the decks build around these spells dont need to run Mox, because of there already low curve.
Which naturally leads to the question, but what if they could support Mox, wouldnt the potencial turn 1 CB / Bob greatly power up the deck running it by either assemble CB/Top much faster (turn 2 with open mana to use SDT) or overhelm the oppoenent with CA and faster mana development based on turn 1 Bob.

So what about:
4 CB / Top
4 Bob
3-4 Standstill

In a nutshell, whats holding Mox back and what would the needed amount of cardadvatange to offset its drawback?

[Obfuscate Freely]

Force of Will is a major reason not to include Chrome Mox, but not because of the card disadvantage. Rather, it is because of Force's own ability to speed up your deck, relative to your opponent's.

Legacy aggro-control decks have access to disruption that comes online much quicker and for much less mana than in other formats. Force, Daze, and Swords to Plowshares all allow you to attack your opponent's gameplan from the first turn of the game. Brainstorm, Sensei's Divining Top, and Ponder even give you better access to these efficient control elements, also from very early in the game.

Chrome Mox is another way to speed up your deck, but the presence of those other cards renders Mox unnecessary. After all, there are several significant drawbacks to playing Chrome Mox, including the card disadvantage (which does add up quickly with Force of Will involved), the way it interferes with multi-colored manabases (especially when land counts are as low as they are in Legacy), and how poorly it interacts with Daze. Since Legacy aggro-control decks are so fast already, these negative aspects of playing Mox tend to outweigh the benefits.

[Forbiddian]

Aggro/Control in legacy has to be designed to compete with other aggro/control decks, in the long game.

If you speed out a turn 1 Bob and your opponent comes up with the Swords, you'll be way behind endgame when you not only have fewer cards to play around with, but you're also stuck with Chrome Mox, which is a completely dead draw. If you speed out a turn 1 Tarmogoyf and your opponent takes a few hits, but then comes up with his own Goyf and then you do a goyf standoff until endgame, you'll be way behind when he'll have an extra business spell and you'll be in the shitter.

Another detractor is that Chrome Mox only taps for one color. Obfuscate Freely talked about this, but: Most threshold/counterbalance decks run 4+ colors, and all run at least 3. In Legacy, any land in the deck gives you more flexible colors than Chrome Mox ever could, at almost no cost.

It also means that keeping a hand like 1 land, one chrome mox is much harder to do than keeping a two land hand, just because you'll likely be color screwing yourself.

Did I mention that chrome mox is awful off the top whereas a fetchland can always combo with your brainstorms, improve your topdecks by reducing your land count, combo with ponder, combo with top, etc.?



Also, we run fewer land and curve out easier. For almost every deck, a turn 5 drop is functionally identical to a turn 4 drop. For most decks, a turn 4 drop is the same as a turn 3 drop, and there are a surprising number of Legacy decks that don't have very many three drops at all.

I can imagine in Extended that a turn 1 Chrome Mox would still be very useful all the way through turn 4 or turn 5, but in Legacy you only have one or two turns where Chrome Mox is actually generating something that a default land wouldn't, and by the endgame, I'm sure almost everyone would rather cash out their Chrome Mox for the two cards back.

[Humphrey]

Baseruption played ChromeMox. The list changed, but it was a good deck.


// Lands
2 [ZEN] Island (1)
3 [R] Tundra
3 [R] Underground Sea
2 [R] Tropical Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
3 [TSB] Shadowmage Infiltrator
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
3 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [DD2] Daze
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [M10] Ponder

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [DIS] Spell Snare
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle

[deadlock]

That was exactly the kind of answer i was looking for, thanks Obfuscate Freely and Forbiddian.

@Humphrey - you know the reason why Mox was included in this version? I guess because the large amount of 3 drops and the numerous card advantage engines the deck runs. :eyebrow:

[Jon Stewart]

I would rather play Noble Hierarch. It wins Goyf wars, it's better with CB+Top by upping your 1cc count rather than the 0cc count, it's never actually dead even if you're mana flooded since it atleast pumps your creatures or can chumpblock something, it's not card disadvantage, and fuels Natural Order.

[MSC]

I have played Chrome Mox in UWb Fish for over a year. First as 4-of, a long time as 3-of and I dropped it in the end.

It was pretty nice in their. Making you less vulnerable to Mana-Denial in every Form, and giving you impressing starts like first turn Bob, CB or Meddling Mage.
The Problem is, that the Deck can't use the Speed it gained. You drop the Mox and speed up to faster 2 and 3 drops. But then what? Especially Fish isn't fast enough to put your opponent under pressure and over Time the Lost Card isn't unsignificant. Also a topdecked Mox is just bad. Later in the Game you don't want to waste two Cards to get a Land. Getting your Moxes destroyed with Explosives or Deed is hard too.

So over Time, I came to the conclusion, that a Land is nearly as good. Of course, sometimes the Mox is a lot better and I clearly won games which I hadn't with a Land. But it sometimes wrecks you too. So the Replacements with Lands was to strenghten average performance, meaning making the Deck more stable...