[SCD] Gemstone Caverns

[Maveric78f]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ts/274.jpg


Gemstone Caverns

Legendary Land
If Gemstone Caverns is in your opening hand and you're not playing first, you may begin the game with Gemstone Caverns on the battlefield with a luck counter on it. If you do, exile a card from your hand.
{T}: Add {1} to your mana pool. If Gemstone Caverns has a luck counter on it, instead add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

I mean that it's basically Mox Diamond#5 or Chrome Mox#5. Moreover, it's better to have Gemstone Caverns + Mox Diamond in opening hand than 2*Mox Diamond, so that I would even play 1*Gemstone Caverns before playing the 3rd or 4th copy of Mox Diamond. To a lesser extent, it think it's true for Chrome Mox too (even if Gemstone Caverns cannot be pitched to this Mox). Finally, I think that it is always always a better topdeck than a Mox, since it can provide mana without card disadvantage and it feeds card advantage gained with Life from the Loam.

On deckcheck only 4 legacy decks have been playing it (but a lot in extended) and the fun thing is that they are all more than 1 year old. Recently, I've only seen it once, it was played *2 in an aggro loam deck (but I can't remember where) in addition to 4 Mox Diamonds.

Why is this card not played more than it is at least as a singleton? The only reason I can think of is Wasteland and Magus of the Moon, but usually mox diamond decks don't give a shit about Wastelands. Aggro Loam in particular should not be afraid of playing it at least *1.

[Forbiddian]

Half the games you're not playing first --> Shit

More than half the cards you draw even when going first aren't in your opening hands --> Shit

Basic lands > that.

[Nessaja]

We had a lot of discussion about it in the Goblins topic...

For me the conclusion was that its use is WAY too conditional, you go second 50% of the game and then you need to get it in your opening hand. Sometimes you might not want to throw anything away either. I think it's useful less then 10% of the time while a basic land is always decent.

[Maveric78f]

Don't compare it to a basic land but to Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox. How is it so much worse?

[Cthuloo]

Don't compare it to a basic land but to Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox. How is it so much worse?

As Forbiddian and Nessaja already wrote, Moxen in your opening hand accelerate always, while gemstone cavern is very conditional. Maybe it can find a spot in some sideboards, siding it in in place of a Mox when you start second, or otherwise in some stax build that cares less about having colorless mana, should you topdeck it later.

[georgjorge]

I've tried it as a 2-of in Aggro Loam (in addition to 4 Diamonds), to up the possiblity of first-turn Chalices/Confidants, and haven't cut them yet. I like them a lot in that deck.



I mean that it's basically Mox Diamond#5 or Chrome Mox#5.

Sort of...it's a cross between a Mox (free acceleration) and a land (can provide mana without any card disadvantage), making it rather flexible. Yes, it is worse at providing unconditional mana than a basic land, and often worse at acceleration than a Mox, but the ability to do both makes it interesting. I wouldn't run it over a Mox though, because decks with Moxes usually depend a lot on that acceleration, so they can't afford it to be conditional.

I think the reason it isn't played more is because almost all decks that can afford to run some colorless sources would rather have utility lands like Wasteland, Port or Factory/Mutavault in those slots instead of the conditional acceleration. Aggro Loam is unique because it has a very consistent mana base thanks to Diamonds and Loam, so it can afford more colorless sources, and it doesn't want any of the utility lands except Wasteland, which is already a 4-of. So I don't think it's not played widely because it's bad, but because the alternatives - utility lands - are very nice in many decks. But I agree that surely there are some decks out there who could profit from some copies, especially monocolored ones (solid manabase) or those playing Loamd and Diamonds, who want to tap out every turn (thus not wanting Port/manlands).

[Maveric78f]

Basically i think that it should be good in every stax deck as diamond#5, and in every intuition/loam deck that generally doesn't want to open 2 moxen diamond in opening hand. 2 moxen diamond and 1 gemstone cavern almost ensures that you won't have 2 accelerations keeping a high chance to have 1.

[Gheizen64]

Don't compare it to a basic land but to Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox. How is it so much worse?

Is it slightly better than a chrome when you don't start. This mean about 50% of your games is slightly better than a chrome, and it's utter shit the other 50% of the games. Seriously. A LEGENDARY land that give colorless and do nothing else. This is much worse than a chrome mox.
And chrome mox isn't played.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

If it worked more like a leyline, it'd be a little better. Like people have said, it's too conditional. You have to have it in your opening hand and you have to be on the draw. I'm not saying it's not viable somewhere, but what player is going to waste a spot on the 5% chance it'll be beneficial?

[Skeggi]

Don't compare it to a basic land but to Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox. How is it so much worse?

You're right, they're all really bad topdecks. Gemstone Caverns are worse when you're on the play though, it costs you a landdrop, totally negating all it's for. Therefor, next to being a bad topdeck, it's also a bad card when being on the play. There are some Goblin lists trying it, but even there I think a basic Mountain (or Rishadan Port, depending on your build) would be better.

[Maveric78f]

You're right, they're all really bad topdecks. Gemstone Caverns are worse when you're on the play though, it costs you a landdrop, totally negating all it's for. Therefor, next to being a bad topdeck, it's also a bad card when being on the play. There are some Goblin lists trying it, but even there I think a basic Mountain (or Rishadan Port, depending on your build) would be better.
I need proof reading. I did not understand that I had to be on the draw. I thought it was working on the play too.

[Tacosnape]

Technically, you shouldn't compare it to either a Mountain -or- a Mox. It doesn't fill the role of either one.

As for the points made,

1. Caverns is not -utter shit- when you draw it on the play. It's worse than a basic mountain, but it's not utter shit. It's still a land drop. You just don't run it when the color's going to affect you.

2. The problem with the statement "It's worse than a basic land 80% of the time you see it" is that doesn't measure how much better it is than a basic land the other 20% of the time. Now. I'm not going to make the argument that Gemstone Caverns is completely game-wrecking. I'm just slaughtering the logic. If, for example, Gemstone Caverns said "If you aren't playing first and this is in your opening hand, you win the game." then you could still make the same argument that it's shit 80% of the time. But it's so powerful that other 20% that it becomes worth running.

The logic you -should- be using to measure Gemstone Caverns is by asking "Which of the following is greater?"

A. The number of games I won by starting my first turn on the draw with two mana

or

B. The number of games I lost because it didn't produce Red, died to Wasteland, or I couldn't play it because another Caverns was in play.

Having tested Gemstone Caverns for months, I can guarantee that without the Wasteland part of B factored in, A is the stronger of the two in a mono-red or red-black Goblins, or at least it was before Warren Instigator was printed. It may very well not be now. Not being able to play it because it's legendary when you run 1-2 and nobody else on earth runs it almost never happens, and running 5-6 nonred producing mana sources in Goblins isn't that bad (It got worse when Warren Instigator was printed, though.) But with Wasteland's prevalence? B becomes much stronger.

So basically, if you aren't running Instigator, you should be running Gemstone Caverns in Mono Red Goblins if you're in a metagame without many/any Wastelands. In other words, this isn't a card too terribly worth defending.

Aside from Goblins, however, I've had pretty decent luck with it in Mono-Brown Metalworker aggro decks. The lack of a color is no drawback here, and the acceleration for going second is hugely vital.

[ScatmanX]

Also, if your Turn 0 Caverns gets wasted in the oponents turn 1, that's not bad.
In your first turn, opponent will have 6 cards in hand, and 0 lands, and you will have 6 cards in hand (after draw), and 0 lands.
So, if he wasted your T 0 caverns, your in the same situation as if you both mulliganed to 6, but you start! =D

[Illissius]

The number of people reflexively parroting talking points is depressing.


I think the reason it isn't played more is because almost all decks that can afford to run some colorless sources would rather have utility lands like Wasteland, Port or Factory/Mutavault in those slots instead of the conditional acceleration.

This sounds closest to the truth.

Also, <3 Tacosnape.

[Forbiddian]

Don't compare it to a basic land but to Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox. How is it so much worse?

As you wish...


Half the games you're not playing first --> Shit

More than half the cards you draw even when going first aren't in your opening hands --> Shit

Chrome Mox > that.





The logic you -should- be using to measure Gemstone Caverns is by asking "Which of the following is greater?"

A. The number of games I won by starting my first turn on the draw with two mana

or

B. The number of games I lost because it didn't produce Red, died to Wasteland, or I couldn't play it because another Caverns was in play.

Ok, you're definitely missing one:

C. The number of times you lost by starting your first turn on the draw with two mana but then the card would have been the difference.


It's not a pure win to start your turn 1 on the draw with two mana, because you're a card shorter than you were if you elect to use it.

But anyway, here's my question: Ok, so your metagame doesn't have any non-basic hate at all. Why are you playing Mono Red Goblins? Even if you think Mad Auntie, Warren Weirding, TinStreet etc. is bad, if there's literally no non-basic hate in your entire metagame, then you should be taking advantage of Kgrips, Planar Voids....


And I think in general, for Mono Red Goblins, you're asking the wrong question. As long as you run anything with RR, there's a minimum number of Mountains you can run, and a range of land that produces colorless. Rather than comparing Gemstone Caverns to Mountains, it's probably better to compare it to like Rishadan Ports or Wastelands provided you're not maxed out on both Port and WL.

I think I'd much, much rather have the extremely flexible Port than Gemstone Caverns.

[BreathWeapon]

The number of people reflexively parroting talking points is depressing.



This sounds closest to the truth.

Also, <3 Tacosnape.

Actually, I think Stompy decks could benefit the most from it, I ran it in Faerie Stompy for awhile and really liked it.

[Lejay]

Actually, I think Stompy decks could benefit the most from it, I ran it in Faerie Stompy for awhile and really liked it.
QFT. It's very good in my Dragon Stompy build.

[Malchar]

Goblins benefits from it just fine. Goblin Ringleader and Goblin Matron always seem to make up for the lost card advantage. When you have Gemstone Caverns in play, you're able to play a regular game and be immune to Daze at the very least.

[Illissius]

The extra card you draw by virtue of going second makes up for the lost card advantage.

[from Cairo]

C. The number of times you lost by starting your first turn on the draw with two mana but then the card would have been the difference.

You can chose to not pitch the card, and drop Caverns as a regular land drop at some point. So if your hand is going to play out fine w/o Caverns acceleration, then there is no reason for you to invest the card in it and lose as a result. One should be able to assess their hand to put forth an educated guess as to whether the acceleration outweighs the card disadvantage.

[Rico Suave]

The most obvious, and in this topic neglected, use for Gemstone Caverns is in Ichorid.

Ichorid wins the vast, vast majority of game 1's and Gemstone Caverns as a SB card is pretty solid in a deck that usually doesn't care if it mulligans.

[HAVE HEART]

I need proof reading. I did not understand that I had to be on the draw. I thought it was working on the play too.

There have been like ten posts after this. The O.P. misread the card, so this thread needs no more discussion.

[Jon Stewart]

It's solid in the board in Ichorid decks.

Maindeck, I think EVERY deck playing Metalworker (ie. every nonaffinity Monobrown deck) should play 3 copies of this.

It goes great with City of Traitors/Ancient Tomb/Mox Diamond to enable turn one Chalice or Trinisphere or Metalworker far more consistently.

The decks don't care about generating colored mana anyways, plus you can discard it to Mox Diamond so there's basically no real drawback. All it does is accelerate the deck by a turn half the time it shows up in your openeing hand.

[Offler]

The comparison of Gemstone Caverns to Chrome mox and Mox Diamond was quite interesting for me.

I was looking for some mana acceleration in early play - no matter if color or colorless, since i have monocolor deck.

Mox diamond and Chrome mox have an additional cost in removal of a specific card. The caverns does not and since i have to maintain amount of cards on hand this will be much more interesting for me (i can remove any card...)