The Complete Legacy Checklist! [Free Article]

[Smmenen]

Editor's Blurb:

"Monday, November 9th - A few weeks ago, Stephen Menendian brought us the Complete Vintage Checklist, a document containing every card you’ll need to play the decks of Competitive Vintage. Today, he does the same for Legacy, and requests the format’s fans to help out in the forums…"

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18259_So_Many_Insane_Plays_The_Complete_Legacy_Checklist.html

This is a great resource for anyone who is interested in legacy. Give this to your local store or dealer so that they can try and find the legacy staples that you and your friends will need as you try to build a legacy scene in your area. Slap this in your binder!

Enjoy!

[Nightmare]

Moderative note:

This is a Premium article - May not be visible to all members. Please take this under advisement, and keep the discussion in this thread focused on the merits of the article, not on Premium membership of a non-affiliated website.

[Soldar]

I added Premium (again) for this and it was well worth it to me, a guy who's trying to organize a Legacy build binder.

Keep up the good work.

[Dan Turner]

Quick Question: How long does an article stay Premium?

[Nightmare]

Quick Question: How long does an article stay Premium?

90 days.

[Smmenen]

I will also periodically update the list, based upon changing tournament results, new sets, etc.

Some things I will change in the next version:

* Vampire Hexmage was accidentally omitted
* I will change Path to Exile to ** from *

Someone suggested that Tranquil Thicket get **, although I'm not sure about it. what do you think? I have Loam as **

[quicksilver]

I absolutly would not include tranquil thicket on any sort of list like this. If you ever need them they should be very easy to get.

[Smmenen]

I absolutly would not include tranquil thicket on any sort of list like this. If you ever need them they should be very easy to get.

The list is a Complete list.

It might be easy to get one in general, but if you are a dealer packing up for Gencon or going to a Legacy Grand Prix, you might not bring them with you if not for a list like this. Often times it's hard to find needed commons or uncommons just before you need them.

[voltron00x]

I think you have both cards correct, Loam at ** and Thicket at *.

Great article, thanks for doing this.

[Aggro_zombies]

I will change Path to Exile to ** from *

Someone suggested that Tranquil Thicket get **, although I'm not sure about it. what do you think? I have Loam as **
Really? Path is an auto four-of in Zoo's 75, and Zoo is one of the best decks in the format right now, or at least one of the most widely played. It certainly gets more play than Thicket does, which would only really show up in Aggro Loam (underplayed right now, IMO). Loam in blue-based decks is almost always paired with Lonely Sandbar. There's very little else that uses Loam in the format.

[voltron00x]

Really? Path is an auto four-of in Zoo's 75, and Zoo is one of the best decks in the format right now, or at least one of the most widely played. It certainly gets more play than Thicket does, which would only really show up in Aggro Loam (underplayed right now, IMO). Loam in blue-based decks is almost always paired with Lonely Sandbar. There's very little else that uses Loam in the format.

Aggro Loam sees more play in Europe than in the US, for whatever reason... Counterbalance and Zoo aren't putting up the same results in large European events as compared to US events. I touch on this briefly in my article this week (should go up tomorrow).

Path isn't seeing much play outside of Zoo right now for whatever reason... for example, most Bant and CB/Top Natural Order lists are still running STP. Not sure if this is intentional or just people adapting slowly to the new cards... probably some of both. Seems like Path is a judgement call.

[quicksilver]

The list is a Complete list.

Then shouldn't every card ever printed be on here? I don't see the point of this. It would totally not be worth a dealers time to pack tons of seldom used commons like tranquil thicket in the slim hope of maybe making 10 cents.

[Smmenen]

Then shouldn't every card ever printed be on here? I don't see the point of this. It would totally not be worth a dealers time to pack tons of seldom used commons like tranquil thicket in the slim hope of maybe making 10 cents.

It's not likely that a Legacy player would want to purchase a Merseine or Wall of Bone. However, a Legacy player may show up at a GP and want a couple of Tranquil Thicket for their Aggro Loam or 43land deck.

But this list isn't just for dealers, traders, or community builders, it's also for folks to use to build collections.

Re: Path. One of the reasons I initially labeled it a * was because I didn't see it being used outside of Zoo, very much.

For **, I was looking for cards that either saw play in very popular archetypes or cards that appeared in multiple archetypes. Since Zoo is pretty popular, Path probably deserves a ** on the basis alone.

Still, for such an undertaking, it's a minor adjustment.

[quicksilver]

I would expect path to be one of the hotest cards right now. It's actually seeing quite a bit of play outside of zoo. In fact it may be seeing more play than swords to plowshares is. Path is literally everywhere right now, from zoo, to merfolk, to counterbalance, to aggro control, to landstill.

[Smmenen]

I would expect path to be one of the hotest cards right now. It's actually seeing quite a bit of play outside of zoo. In fact it may be seeing more play than swords to plowshares is. Path is literally everywhere right now, from zoo, to merfolk, to counterbalance, to aggro control, to landstill.

You should look up the word 'literally.' It doesn't mean what you think it does. There are large swaths of the field that don't use path, like Goblins, Canadian Threshold, etc.

As for the decks you cite:
Zoo, definitely. Most run Path.

There were 8 Merfolk decks at SCG $5k. Only one of 8 merfolk decklists ran white at the SCG tournament. Most were mono blue or Ug.

There were two landstill decks at the $5k, neither did very well. Kinda irrel, if you are trying to prove the ubiquity of Path.

As for the Counter-Top decks, Swords is still by far the more popular choice, and Path is used at the fringe, if at all. None of the CounterTop decks in the last SCG $5k Top 16 used Path, and they all used swords, if they ran white:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29963
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29968

So, no, it doesn't appear that Path is 'literally everywhere.'

In any case, I agree that Path is v. popular, that's why I'm going to give it a **, but it's certainly not everywhere, or even close to it. So let's not blow things out of proportion here by saying that it is.

[quicksilver]

You were the one who had no idea that goyf was dominant in legacy (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17678_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Notes_on_NuVintage_and_a_Breakdown_of_the_SCG_Legacy_5K.html). So I am pretty confidant when I say that you have no idea what you are talking about and are probably the least qualified person to come up with a list like this.

[voltron00x]

I literally just looked at every Legacy top 8 / top 16 from March through the end of October that had more than 100 players (using Morphling, Deckcheck, and the SCG database) while doing research for my article for this week, and I have to agree with Stephen, Path isn't ubiquitous outside of Zoo. The vast majority of Landstill, Bant, and CB players were still running STP.

All you can do when making a list like this is look at the data. It is what it is.

[Smmenen]

You were the one who had no idea that goyf was dominant in legacy (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17678_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Notes_on_NuVintage_and_a_Breakdown_of_the_SCG_Legacy_5K.html). So I am pretty confidant when I say that you have no idea what you are talking about and are probably the least qualified person to come up with a list like this.

While I'm glad you read my article, I encourage you to read more carefully.

I never said that I had no idea Goyf was dominant in Legacy. That much is obvious. What I said was that I had no idea that it was *that* dominant. I expected Goyf to be in about 1/3 of decklists, not almost 50%, as it eventually was in Philly.

And in any case I'm having trouble understanding what that has to do with your claim that Path is 'everywhere.'

[quicksilver]

I was naming decks that have played path against me. Maybe I just play against path more than normal, but I definitly have more path's than swords played against me. I played against all those decks you named at the SCG 5k. And I think path is on the rise, I think we will see more and more of it.

Also does anyone else think it to be a conflict of interests for a store that sells magic cards telling you which cards you should buy.

[Smmenen]

I was naming decks that have played path against me. Maybe I just play against path more than normal, but I definitly have more path's than swords played against me. I played against all those decks you named at the SCG 5k.


Prove it. Tell me where you placed (or your name), and I'll tell you exactly how many of your opponents ran Path, and in what quantities, and how many ran Swords. I have all of the SCG decklists.




Also does anyone else think it to be a conflict of interests for a store that sells magic cards telling you which cards you should buy.

What interest is being conflicted?

You probably shouldn't look at MTG.com either, since they talk about products they may want you to buy.

[C.P.]

Wow, this discussion is getting more heated than it needs to be.

I think the article was generally fine, and I enjoyed reading(if you can call it that) it. However, I have few questions.

1. Is Keldon Megalith playable in this format over Barbarian ring? If it was in a deck, what kind of deck was it? Was it just 43 Lands list that decided to be funny? I'm aware that both are on the list, but isn't the Ring just better than megalith?

2. What was the grounds for 3 Tabernacle, not 2?

3. Things like Crawlspace seems even more marginal then High Tide pieces, does it not?

4. Is shakels ever be 4 of in a deck? I played MUC before, and even that did not want 4 of them. What deck do you think will play 4?

5. If WW shadow guys are on the list, I think Isamaru and Stonecloaker(due to their inclusion in fringe decks like Death and taxes) should be in as well. Same is probably true for Mother of Runes as well.

6. Ranger of Eos saw some play, most notably in the Blue zoo in GP: Chicago. I think it has potential in the format.

7. Mold Adder? Really? I'd really like to hear your reasoning on this guy.

8. If Vines made it, shouldn't Berserk and Rancor also make it? I mean, there are people who are constantly trying to make it work.

9. There are some multicolored cards in monocolored section. Figure and Archangel stands out.

10. Flametongue Kavu seems viable, as metagame gets more and more aggro-centered.

But yeah, I really appreciate your interest in format, and I hope it continues.

[FoulQ]

God, I'm getting really sick of people bashing Stephen and saying stuff like "you don't know anything about legacy." No wonder nobody cares about legacy.

It doesn't matter if he knows anything or not about legacy. I think what people seem to be missing is the fact that a lot of the articles he writes about legacy are statistical analysis. When people make fun of him for saying "combo beats zoo," well they miss the point of the whole statistical argument. Stephen bases his argument on logic rather than intuition gained through years of playing legacy like many of the members of this site. Stephen saying that combo beats zoo through analysis of major tournaments has a lot more merit than some random forum member saying that combo beat zoo in his 5 games of mws testing.

Keep up the good work.

[SpencerForHire]

I was very excited for this list to come out. Not because I agree 100% with everything Steve has to say, but because I can cross check his belief of what belongs in my collection with what I believe belongs there when making sure I have everything I need. If you don't agree with something he identifies as important, I wager it wouldn't take too much effort to just value it higher in your own collection.

[Aggro_zombies]

10. Flametongue Kavu seems viable, as metagame gets more and more aggro-centered.

But yeah, I really appreciate your interest in format, and I hope it continues.
Flametongue is probably too slow. At four mana for four damage and a 4/TooSmall, it's not that impressive since it will rarely kill a Tarmogoyf and it can't really push through damage unless the board is empty. At least Shriekmaw can be evoked, kills the guy outright, and has evasion.

[Smmenen]

A couple of notes:

* Path is now **
* Shriekmaw was listed under Red, by mistake.

[Smmenen]

Wow, this discussion is getting more heated than it needs to be.

I think the article was generally fine, and I enjoyed reading(if you can call it that) it. However, I have few questions.

1. Is Keldon Megalith playable in this format over Barbarian ring? If it was in a deck, what kind of deck was it? Was it just 43 Lands list that decided to be funny? I'm aware that both are on the list, but isn't the Ring just better than megalith?



I don't remember which decks I saw this in, but I assume it was 43 land. What I did was start with all of the decklists from the SCG $5k for the list, and included about 80% of those cards. The list has 4 Rings, fyi.




2. What was the grounds for 3 Tabernacle, not 2?



I reasoned that I could see building a 43 land list with 3 Tabernacle, or a Stax list with 3.




3. Things like Crawlspace seems even more marginal then High Tide pieces, does it not?



It does, but it was in some recent decklists from the SCG $5k.




4. Is shakels ever be 4 of in a deck? I played MUC before, and even that did not want 4 of them. What deck do you think will play 4?



I could, in theory, imagine a mono blue tez stax list running 4.



5. If WW shadow guys are on the list, I think Isamaru and Stonecloaker(due to their inclusion in fringe decks like Death and taxes) should be in as well. Same is probably true for Mother of Runes as well.


I intended to include MOther of Ruins. I'll get her in next time.



6. Ranger of Eos saw some play, most notably in the Blue zoo in GP: Chicago. I think it has potential in the format.


I can offer no opinion on this one.



7. Mold Adder? Really? I'd really like to hear your reasoning on this guy.


It was in a well placing decklist somewhere, maybe of the top 32 decklists from SCG, I don't remember.





8. If Vines made it, shouldn't Berserk and Rancor also make it? I mean, there are people who are constantly trying to make it work.


I don't remember where I saw vines, but i think it was in the top 32 of the SCG $5k. Rancor and Berserk are pump cards. I think Vines is there for pump and protection.



9. There are some multicolored cards in monocolored section. Figure and Archangel stands out.



Thanks, fixed in my spreadsheet.




10. Flametongue Kavu seems viable, as metagame gets more and more aggro-centered.

But yeah, I really appreciate your interest in format, and I hope it continues.

Thanks. I've been playing the format for some time. I wrote an Iggy Pop primer a few years ago.

I enjoy legacy and try to build interest in the format, and publicize it. There aren't that many regular Magic writers on major websites, so I'm happy to do my part to promote the format, and build it in my area.

[Gibsonmac]

You should look up the word 'literally.' It doesn't mean what you think it does. There are large swaths of the field that don't use path, like Goblins, Canadian Threshold, etc.

As for the decks you cite:
Zoo, definitely. Most run Path.

There were 8 Merfolk decks at SCG $5k. Only one of 8 merfolk decklists ran white at the SCG tournament. Most were mono blue or Ug.

There were two landstill decks at the $5k, neither did very well. Kinda irrel, if you are trying to prove the ubiquity of Path.

As for the Counter-Top decks, Swords is still by far the more popular choice, and Path is used at the fringe, if at all. None of the CounterTop decks in the last SCG $5k Top 16 used Path, and they all used swords, if they ran white:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29963
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=29968

So, no, it doesn't appear that Path is 'literally everywhere.'

In any case, I agree that Path is v. popular, that's why I'm going to give it a **, but it's certainly not everywhere, or even close to it. So let's not blow things out of proportion here by saying that it is.


SSG 5k's are not the only tournaments in legacy... so simply quoting results from them is not entirely accurate... there are large tournaments on a weekly basis in the states, and in Europe massive tournaments regularly...

That being said, thank you for putting this together, I feel like I'm looking at a fantasy football prospective draft plan/list or something, great job!

[kkoie]

I reasoned that I could see building a 43 land list with 3 Tabernacle, or a Stax list with 3.


The only problem I ever see w/ any deck running more than 2 copies of Tabernacle is that it doesn't generate mana. That and it doesn't completely shut down aggro decks, it just ties them up and slows them down a bit. In Stax, You are probably better off running more copies of Moat, since that is a bit more aggresive against most aggro decks. In 43 land I think the deck is actually fairly tight, and I think it would be difficult finding room for a 3rd tab. I don't ever see anyone casting intuition for 3 tab anyway, what would be the point unless their opponent has a leyline in play?

[TorpidNinja]

SSG 5k's are not the only tournaments in legacy... so simply quoting results from them is not entirely accurate... there are large tournaments on a weekly basis in the states, and in Europe massive tournaments regularly...

I hear this point a lot and it never sits well with me (probably because the tourney scene in my area is pretty limited so I don't have the best frame of reference.) But, from my perspective, it seems that the SCG tournies have a really strong attendance and marketing force behind them as well great prize support. Wouldn't this lend itself to a more developed group of players and decks ending up in the results?

I'm not trying to be contentious for its own sake; I'm genuinely curious: what legacy tournies (in the States) have stronger marketing, attendance and prize support? If the most reasonable answer is the SCG 5k then quoting the results seems like a good resort.

[Smmenen]

FYI...

This article is now FREE!

[Sevryn]

Berserk *
Thorn of Amethyst *
Sulfuric Vortex *