Dark-Walker or Moonshine

[LegacyDan]

Ok, so I have been wondering what deck to play in a couple of months for the upcoming Legacy Grand Prix. Do I stick with Death and Taxes? Play one of the Tier One decks? Go Rogue? Hm.... So, long story short I decided to try building a B/w deck based off of the deck Ultimate Walker. So without further ado, here is the beginning decklist (sorry for the mad ravings of a man who should really be sleeping).

Dark-Walker/Moonshine (I haven't decided on the name yet):

Planeswalker- 7
2x Elspeth
3x Liliana Vess
2x Ajani Goldmane

Creatures- 5
4x Hypnotic Specter
1x Vampire Hexmage

Artifacts- 3
3x SDT

Enchantments- 4
4x Phyrexian Arena

Instants- 4
4x StP

Sorcery- 15
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize
3x Vindicate

Lands- 22
4x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Plains
4x Scrubland
8x Swamps
1x Dark Depths

Sideboard:
4x Engineered Plague
3x Planar Void
4x Abeyance
4x Ethersworn Canonist

So the basic theme is to control the other players hand and manabase until you can use a Planeswalker to win, such as Liliana's ultimate or Elspeth tokens. Any thoughts would be cool, thanks ya'll. Although most of the time it seems like Sorin appears to be the winner.

[Pastorofmuppets]

If you're expecting a lot of Ichorid, I'd suggest Ravenous Trap in place of Planar Void. It's just so... Convenient...
Also, Wastelock via Crucible would probably be cool
Bitterblossom would rock; moreso with Contamination (and I don't want to see anyone say "oh, everyone suggests that with any black deck")

[Nidd]

If you ask me, this deck needs more Eternal Dragon and/or Bitterblossom.

Eternal Dragon is an often overlooked goodie that ensures you hit a third land and serves as a recurring beater during lategame.
Bitterblossom helps with stalling and in a matchup like Landstill or similiar decks, a resolved Bitterblossom can provide a wincondition.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I don't see the point of Sinkhole in this deck. It isn't tempo oriented. I know Sinkhole is a good card i could just see replacing that slow with something better. More removal like Mortify or just something else.

Also you're wanting to play control to ramp up to Planeswalkers so I'm questioning Wasteland as well.

[stacker]

walker has a lot of mass removal and ways to search for it, yours have none. i really dont see how it can stand up to any sort of competent aggro deck.

[LegacyDan]

I was actually looking more towards the LD package for controlling the game. Eternal Dragon seems like an interesting choice, I am also considering Damnation as a sweeper. Crucible seems like a nifty choice, but isn't it kinda lackluster with only 4 Wastelands and nothing else to use with it?

[Nidd]

I was actually looking more towards the LD package for controlling the game. Eternal Dragon seems like an interesting choice, I am also considering Damnation as a sweeper. Crucible seems like a nifty choice, but isn't it kinda lackluster with only 4 Wastelands and nothing else to use with it?
Uhm... Wasteland?:confused:

[nodahero]

The way I see it... You have two options. You can continue to play a suboptimal Deadguy deck or you can switch the deck to three colors like the other Walker variant and include blue essentially swaping black and red.

You need some form of card advantage to really have a shot against other decks.

[LegacyDan]

I am sorry this untested decklist of mine does not meet up to your standards, but this is the new and developmental forum. This is also why we have decktesting and random theories/advise.

Honestly though, I will be most likely be adding in Crucibles/Manlands along with Eternal Dragons to help smooth out the deck.

[Maveric78f]

Humility and Wrath Effects are probably better than mana denial. Liliana Vess is probably the worst Planeswalker in WB. I'd suggest -3 Liliana, +1/2 Elpeth +1/2 RW Ajani. I'd also remove the wastelands to enable a sweet R splash.

[LegacyDan]

The problem is that if I splash R, then it will just slowly switch over into Ultimate Walker and I reallly am trying to avoid that.

[Maveric78f]

Ultimate Walker is blue based (20+ blue cards) isn't it? You're still far tfrom there...

[LegacyDan]

True, but half of the people I talk to keep trying to compare this deck to Ultimate Walker and its just annoying. While Ajani Vengeant seems interesting nothing for sure can be said until I can actually test this in an actual tourney (which won't be for at least another 2 weeks based on my work schedule).

[Cthuloo]

I like a lot the idea of the deck. Like other people said, I think you need some mass removal to keep aggro in check. Crucible + manland is also nice, because it provides you with extra early blocker, the chance to wastelock and an additional win-con. As for the PW, is Liliana really that good? I would drop her for +1 Elspeth, +2 White Ajani. Ajani provides:

- lifegain: not bad since you are using arenas as a draw engine
- +1/+1 and vigilance to your mishra's, speeding up the clock a lot and allowing you to attack and tap for mana
- another fast wincon

Finally a question: how fast do you manage to win? The deck as it is seems really slow, and if you were to bring it to a tournament, the time issue can become important.

[Frozen_Fire]

I like the deck, but what does make it better than Mighty Quinn? It seems to combine the old Deadguy with Quinn decks, but I'm not sure if their combination is worthy to run, especially because you have a slower deadguy and a more vulnerable Quinn.

[Hanni]

I don't understand Sorin Markov at all. I know it looks like such a fun card to try and build a deck around, but it's not good in Legacy. At 3BBB, that's way too slow without any form of acceleration. Acceleration is bad in a control deck anyway. If you were going to run acceleration to power him out, anyway, you're better off casting Ad Naeseum and winning with Tendrils.

Sorin's first ability would have been good a few years ago, but 2 damage is not enough to answer most of the threats in Legacy these days. His second ability is completely irrelevant for a control deck. His 3rd ability is pointless without having anything broken to do with it, which there's not.

Overall, while Sorin might look like it could have potential, he really does not.

On the other hand, Liliana Vess in MBC sounds pretty good. He first ability is just generally useful, and is actually strong at setting up her second ability. The second ability can either grab bombs like Damnation, or grab a combo win like Hexmage/DD or Painter/Servant. Again, the first ability can make sure that those combo wins are undisrupted or that the big bombs like Damnation resolve. Her 3rd ability is another alternate combo win, which seems really strong against any sort of aggro given the fact that this deck will have tons of creatures put into the opponent's graveyard via all the removal.

Now, whether the deck should stay mono black or splash white is debatable. Staying mono black offers manabase stability and opens up the ability to run a snow land manabase with Scrying Sheets (like Mighty Quinn). On the other hand, white offers Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, and Elspeth, which are all very strong cards. Personally, I'd opt for a white splash.

I would not run Sinkhole or Wasteland, because you're not concerned with denying the opponent land drops, gaining tempo, etc. However, I would run 4 Mishra's Factory.

Duress/Thoughtseize/Hymn sounds like a fine disruption package, along with Liliana Vess.

Swords to Plowshares, Innocent Blood, Damnation, and Vindicate sounds like a fine removal package. Maybe like a 4/3/3/2 (respectively) maindeck configuration would be good, with the extra Damnation and Vindicates in the sideboard.

Sensei's Divining Top (possibly w/ Scrying Sheets) and Phyrexian Arena sounds like a fine draw package. You want the full 4 Top's, though (unless you cut fetchlands and run Scrying Sheets).

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So overall, Sorin Markov is /fail, but I gotta give you +1 for Liliana Vess in MBC (and MBC/w). That is all.


As for the PW, is Liliana really that good?

Why question Liliana before Sorin?

To answer your question about Liliana (which was done above already), yes. She doesn't protect herself like Elspeth does, but she gives MBC a clock by either assembling a 2-card combo win, or using her final for an alternate combo win. Her first ability clears the opponent's hand, which clears the way for the combo finish. I don't think that is necessarily a bad idea for MBC.

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B/W Darkwalker (I like this name)

Lands (25)
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
6 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Dark Depths
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory

Creatures (1)
1 Vampire Hexmage

Spells (34)
2 Liliana Vess
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Innocent Blood
3 Damnation
3 Vindicate

Something like that, maybe?

[Hiis]

This is what i've been working on, it started as BG and evolved to include white as well. I used to have the discard package of hymn+duress in but opted for more removal, the dudes are also supposed to be 2-for-1 deals so no tarmogoyf even if i have green. My version obviously has a really bad combo match up due to no discard but i wanted to crush control and aggro and so far the results have been really good. I also have only one spell hit by spell snare and most of my spells cost 3-4 mana so countertopping them is a lot harder than a curve concentrating on 1-2.

Let the deck speak for itself:

Mana Base (24):
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
3x Bayou
3x Scrubland
3x Swamp
2x Windswept Heath
2x Plains
2x Forest
2x Savannah
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Removal (15):
4x Pernicious Deed
4x Vindicate
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Damnation
1x Maelstrom Pulse

Creatures (11):
3x Krosan Tusker
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Eternal Witness
2x Kitchen Finks

Walkers etc (10):
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Sorin Markov
1x Ajani Goldmane
1x Enlightened Tutor

Sideboard:
3x Choke
3x Extirpate
3x Pulse of the Fields
2x Krosan Grip
2x Damnation
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Maelstrom Pulse

[LegacyDan]

*responding to posts and ideas

hiis: interesting decklist, but I am am trying to keep the crtiiers out of the deck and use planeswalkers in there spots. That and we (my playgroup) have already rejected the green splash and decided to stick with black/white to avoid an even more fragile mana base.

hanni: thanks for your thoughts, but in the opening posts I stated we are using LD (Wasteland, Sinkhole, and Vindicate) as the main control Package with discard/creature removal as needed. The 1x Dark Depths/Hexmage as tutor targets for a wincon is right up my alley. The Snowlands seems interesting, since I want to hit every land drop possible, BUT something else has been recently suggested. (And I hate it when people try to tell me what I want to do, unless you are my babies momma lolz) Sorin was put in as a trial card to help offset the lifeloss, but Ajani actually looks like he would be better overall for this deck.

Cthuloo: I like the Ajani suggestion. I have noticed that the lifeloss is rather annoying and him pumping manlands sounds like fun.


Alright, the LD Package has been removed completely after putting the deck though some paces. Sadly, this does make it look more like a variant of Deadguy's Ale, but with some different card choices. Planeswalkers have been kept (including Liliana, she just work for some reason). Ajani Goldmane has replaced Sorin altogether, Sorin was fun but just to slow. Ajani on the other hand can make my manlands bigger as was suggested, gains life to offset Arena and can make an decent sized Avatar if needed. Elspeth was also kept in, but then again taking her out was never really an issue, I mean come-on, 5/5 flying factory? Hellz ya.

I have chosen to go wth the Hand control suite over the LD package for several reasons. It seems more realiable, and has a better impact on the game (such as letting me know what to expect- info is key to winning).

I went up to five creatures- Hypnotic Specters and one Hexmage. I liked the sugggestion that Liliana could be used to tutor up a 20/20 beatstick if needed and forcing my opponet th WtP sounds funny. Hyppies were put in mostly for their ability to hit the opponets hand more than once.