[Free Article] Darwinism on Display: Legacy Counterbalance

[voltron00x]

In this week's article, I did some research into Counterbalance decks in Legacy and tracked how they've evolved throughout 2009.

To do this, I looked up the Top 8 (or Top 16, for events like GP: Chicago and the three SCG $5Ks) of every Legacy event from March through October that had 100 or more players, and then pulled out all the Counterbalance decks, offering brief comments on each deck. The data reveals some interesting trends and might help those of you struggling to figure out whether CB/Top should be in your testing gauntlet, and if so, what version.

Consider this a one-stop resource on everything Counterbalance in Legacy:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18265_The_Long_Winding_Road_Darwinism_on_Display_Legacy_Counterbalance.html

[J.V.]

I actually really liked this article, it basically summed up my recent thoughts about Counterbalance dropping and storm rising because of Zoo's explosion.
I think when the dust settles we'll end up with a:
Zoo>Counterbalance>Storm>Zoo meta
similar to the past old days of:
Solidarity>Goblins>Threshold>Solidarity
(Obviously this is all with shades of gray, but still for general principle purposes...)

[Parcher]

I'm very impressed with the continued quality of these Legacy articles. Thank you very much. I do have two very small criticisms though:

1. So many lists back-to-back tend to blur together. Just as a formatting for the eye. And the simple-minded such as myself.

2. As a Vintage player, you should know that some of the most competitive skill-wise Eternal tournaments are very often 60-70 players due to the decreased popularity. And that very often these larger tournaments' numbers are pumped up by opportunistic dilletanttes and holdovers from some other local tournament. Confining your data to tournaments 100+ for Legacy could be innaccurate, especially in the US.

[4eak]

Not adding much to the conversation, but I don't think the mods will mind praise for hard work:

Thanks for the article. It was a nice read.

I have to admit, I started scrolling through decklists to get to the meat in between. Links to decklists would have sufficed in most cases.

I realize it takes a good amount of time to work with data, and that might be one of the reasons you've restricted your research to 100+ tournaments. I think you should consider using even smaller tournaments as well. You can "weight" the values or whatever, but it would nice to use more results.

If you want easier data to work with, I've captured all metadata and decklists from both morphling.de and deckcheck.net with some bots. I've compiled them into SQLite databases, so you can write queries to gather information pretty nicely. You might be able to draw even more insight with such a data set. If you happen to quit your job and have extra time, you can make graphs too; I like graphs.




peace,
4eak

[MMogg]

I actually really liked this article, it basically summed up my recent thoughts about Counterbalance dropping and storm rising because of Zoo's explosion.
I think when the dust settles we'll end up with a:
Zoo>Counterbalance>Storm>Zoo meta
similar to the past old days of:
Solidarity>Goblins>Threshold>Solidarity
(Obviously this is all with shades of gray, but still for general principle purposes...)

I find that's kind of a general principal of all formats of Magic: combo beats aggro, which beats control, which beats combo. It's been that way since I started playing at least.

Interesting article, and I agree with Parcher that the decklists made me blurry-eyed after a while.

Edit: Maybe Starcity can make the decklists collapsible/expandable.

[Aggro_zombies]

Tossing my hat into the "wall of lists" ring. After a while I scrolled past most of them just to see the analysis. It probably would have been a bit easier on the eyes without SCG's deck list charts, but oh well.

Very, very well done.

[SpencerForHire]

I find that's kind of a general principal of all formats of Magic: combo beats aggro, which beats control, which beats combo. It's been that way since I started playing at least.


This is only true in a perfect world. In reality, when combo, aggro or control doesn't perform this way, it is because of an imbalance of the power level of cards within the format for each archetype. Though, I am quite certain there are other theorycraft that will give additional logic for why the rock scissors paper environ does not actually exist.

[Aggro_zombies]

This is only true in a perfect world. In reality, when combo, aggro or control doesn't perform this way, it is because of an imbalance of the power level of cards within the format for each archetype. Though, I am quite certain there are other theorycraft that will give additional logic for why the rock scissors paper environ does not actually exist.
Truth. In reality, combo usually beats aggro and can often beat control, and control decks that can't beat aggro are not viable control decks. In the end, combo and control target aggro decks from two different angles and either suppress them, or force the aggro decks to adapt. This is largely dependent on what tools each deck has available, though.

For example, in Legacy the best aggro cards are much, much faster than the best control cards, putting control decks behind from the get-go. The combo decks' components are also much faster than control decks' answers, making combo a trump in the control matchup if it can fire off one of the many cheap protection spells it has available to it. That said, combo decks are kept in check both by the skill requirements needed to pilot them and decks that can field recurring disruption (Counterbalance).

This means that control decks are really facing pressure from a lot of sources. The answers they need have to be fast enough to keep up with both aggro and combo, but each deck demands different answers. This is why control decks tend not to exist in metagames that are in the early stages of evolution: control decks need to calibrate their answer packages to the expected field before they can start doing well.

Extended is an interesting example of all of this. Storm combo is worse there than Cascade Hypergenesis, Hex-Depths, and Dredge (since it's slower), but the aggro decks are just fast enough to race and have just enough hate to keep the combo decks in check. As a result, you end up with a meta that's largely made of combo and aggro decks bashing into each other while control struggles to find an equilibrium point.

[Skeggi]

The problem with these kinds of articles is that you're always at least one step behind. You're analyzing the past meta, but not what's currently developing. There has been a big decline of counterbalance decks, that's true, but in my meta they're already seeing more play as the Japanese list, Supreme Blue, became more and more popular. Alongside that list, various other counterbalance decks are still being played, like Bant, Soa'S and NLU.

I don't see any mentioning of the current very popular Supreme Blue. All the decks you name have either no Firespout or run them in the sideboard. Not maindeck.


6. Merfolk is popular. Although Counterbalance/Top decks were the main target for Merfolk players, Landstill definitely got caught in the crossfire. Merfolk is able to fight counter-wars and use its own disruption, and has Aether Vial to blank opposing counterspells. The use of so many “lords” can make sweepers like Firespout ineffective.
The last sentence is simply not correct. You need 3 Lords to fight Firespout, something a list running counters and Swords to Plowshares like Supreme Blue can handle. Further, and I've been pushing this a bit, but it's true, is that Landstill decks (well, in my meta at least) are already adepted at dealing with Merfolk, by running more removal and Moat.

P.S.

This suggests that if you want to win a large Legacy tournament, you still need to have a plan against Counter/Top decks… unless you live in Europe.
Last time I checked, I live in Europe. Last tournament I went to: 42 players, at least 8 of them playing CounterTop; 1 ending 4th and 1 ending 7th after 7 rounds of Swiss (both Supreme Blue variants with maindeck Firespouts).

[Maveric78f]

Nice article indeed. There is another point I'd like to underline.

I think that tarmogoyf used to be a control creature because it was bigger than anything in the format and it could stall aggroish tarmogoyf that it used to face. Basically, if the aggro player controls 2 creatures + tarmogoyf and the control player controls just tarmogoyf. The only option that the aggro player had was to attack with all creatures. Tarmogoyf was sort of an anti-creature for control in the control-aggro MU.

Now that exaltation exists and is widely spread either with noble or qasali, tarmogoyf is now an aggro creature that cannot be nullified by Tarmogoyf. The aggro player will control 1 exalted creature and 1 tarmogoyf, the control player controls 1 tarmogoyf. The aggro player will attack with only tarmogoyf and the control player's only option is to chump block or take 5 damage per turn.

At the end, the whole strategy of Dreadstill has become irrelevant because of Qasali: stall/CA with an early tarmogoyf and play either counterbalance or dreadnought to win the long game. Dreadstill is definitely a bad deck now.

As for landstill, Elspeth and Humility are even more elevant now that aggro relies on qasali to deal with hate, so I'm not sure it's as bad as the article author tries to claim.

[voltron00x]

Just an FYI on the amount of actual decklists vs links - that was a decision by the editor. We also have guidelines on actual decklists vs links to outside sources.

As its posted, I realize it may be a pain to read, but there's probably also some value to having all of those full-on decklists in the same place.

Parcher, I 100% understand where that comment is coming from re: smaller events and don't disagree at all... but some kind of guideline was required for this undertaking, and you more or less can track the trends in CB decks from the larger tournaments. This isn't meant to take away from the relevance or player level at smaller events; you can also see that some of the names repeat, suggesting the player is solid. Your comparison to Vintage is well taken though, I've played in some smaller Blue Bell Vintage events where I knew every player and at least half the players had a legitimate shot of winning the tournament.

We just pulled 40 players for the first Legacy tournament at the local store where I play (Alternate Universe - Blue Bell), easily double what I was expecting, which is awesome. The player quality was pretty high overall for such an event... the top 8 had a pro player from Channelfireball, the #1 rated eternal player in PA, the 10th place player from the Philly $5k, and one of our local Vintage ringers, so clearly the better players were advancing even though the field was quite strange (40 players, 27 different decks, 5 dredge players, only 1 player on Zoo... I'll recap next week). I'd expect this to be a recurring event now, so that'll give me a medium-sized meta to track also (similarly to what Stephen has with the Meandeck Opens).

[voltron00x]

Edit: Maybe Starcity can make the decklists collapsible/expandable.

This is a really, really good idea and the perfect solution for this type of article - I'm going to ask about it.

[Elf_Ascetic]

I can't help it , but I have to say it: He didn't talk about landstill. His nice analysis why Dreadstill doesn't make the cut doesn't show about landstill.. They're both different decks, with a very different play and winning strategy. They both have there own good and bad matchups.

1. Wild Nacatl exists. Landstill plays 6 StP effects maindeck. And 3 EE.

2. Qasali Pridemage exists. So? Only nasty against factory. Crucible isn't being maindecked anymore.

3. Path to Exile exists. Irrelevant.

4. Standstill is no longer well-positioned. True. That's why we play 3.

5. Stifle and Trickbind are not in landstill.

6. Merfolk is popular. Could be relevant. There are landstilllists who have a (very) positive matchup against the fishes, however.

7. Dredge continues to grow in popularity as a strategy. Relevant. But this is true for CB/Top etc as well.

8. Tarmogoyf is ubiquitous. And landstill doesn't play it.


I think landstill is THE deck to beat Counterbalancebased decks all night long. The meta isn't that unfriendly. A meta full of ANT and Dredge, that would be unfriendly. Landstill isn't played much, but when played, It will put up results.

[voltron00x]

I can't help it , but I have to say it: He didn't talk about landstill. His nice analysis why Dreadstill doesn't make the cut doesn't show about landstill.. They're both different decks, with a very different play and winning strategy. They both have there own good and bad matchups.

1. Wild Nacatl exists. Landstill plays 6 StP effects maindeck. And 3 EE.

2. Qasali Pridemage exists. So? Only nasty against factory. Crucible isn't being maindecked anymore.

3. Path to Exile exists. Irrelevant.

4. Standstill is no longer well-positioned. True. That's why we play 3.

5. Stifle and Trickbind are not in landstill.

6. Merfolk is popular. Could be relevant. There are landstilllists who have a (very) positive matchup against the fishes, however.

7. Dredge continues to grow in popularity as a strategy. Relevant. But this is true for CB/Top etc as well.

8. Tarmogoyf is ubiquitous. And landstill doesn't play it.


I think landstill is THE deck to beat Counterbalancebased decks all night long. The meta isn't that unfriendly. A meta full of ANT and Dredge, that would be unfriendly. Landstill isn't played much, but when played, It will put up results.


These points are all fair, and I did address Dreadstill more than Landstill - but Dreadstill received more coverage as one of, if not THE, deck to beat in the mainstream Magic "press" so to speak (see the Worlds coverage of Cheon's Dreadstill, for example).

As I noted, Landstill won the tournament I played on Saturday (40 players), even though 5 people played Dredge (making it the most popular deck) and 2 played ANT (although one of those ANT players was running a creature-based version with Shield Spheres and the like), so by your own admission that is a relatively hostile field. The Landstill player, Josh, beat LED Ichorid in the first round of the top 8. He's been playing the deck for some time, and recently has played it in Vintage as well. Its a solid deck that is, if you ask me, pretty tough to pilot through such a broad field... but I do like the fact that it has broad answers and relatively few weaknesses, so maybe its actually positioned correctly. It'll be interesting to see if Landstill, as a strategy, starts to make a comeback. Control players unhappy with Counterbalance might turn to Landstill... but its still up to Landstill players to start placing in these larger events, before the data suggests its as viable as you suggest.

[Cthuloo]

Really interesting article: I always like when someone's analysis is data-driven.

As for Landstill: something people tend to underestimate is how tiring can be piloting Landstill in a big tournament. The average match length is much longer than for any other deck, resulting in less rest between the rounds, which can obviously have consequences on the player capability of thinking clear as the tournament progresses.
I think this could be the reason why Landstill continues to place well at small events, but fails to confirm its results at bigger ones. Imagine at a GP, where you have to play 8-9 hours of magic with little to no rest: of course the player's concentration will slowly drop and he or she will end up making more mistakes than his or her opponent.

[Eldariel]

With regards to your comments on Zoo Mirror, it's worth noting that e.g. Kitchen Finks is hardly an amazing card there. It's a 3-drop and while it doesn't die to one burn-spell, it does become too small to attack or block functioning mostly as a lifegain effect; handy, but not as good as another big creature and definitely not superior enough to your MD cards to spend SB slots on.

And Jitte runs the problem that as long as opponent has removal, equipping simply allows you to pay 2 to force them to use said removal. It's hardly an amazing tool in the mirror unless you have a lot of creatures too big to remove, and a lot of mana. And this is without accounting for Qasali Pride-Mage which again "wins" one mana when removing an equipped Jitte.


Frankly, one of the best mirror tools I've seen is Swords to Plowshares. The guy with the last big monster generally wins so packing 4 more cards that remove anything over smaller creatures or slower burn (depending on build) tends to be a backbreaker.

Best would of course be some form of card advantage, but most of the reasonable options are simply too slow or cost too much life to be usable vs. the more aggressive variants of the deck. Failing that, some more big dudes like Thoctars could definitely help.

[MattH]

Frankly, one of the best mirror tools I've seen is Swords to Plowshares. The guy with the last big monster generally wins so packing 4 more cards that remove anything over smaller creatures or slower burn (depending on build) tends to be a backbreaker.

Best would of course be some form of card advantage, but most of the reasonable options are simply too slow or cost too much life to be usable vs. the more aggressive variants of the deck. Failing that, some more big dudes like Thoctars could definitely help.

Loxodon Hierarch, now that's a way to win Zoo mirrors! :eek:

[voltron00x]

Vines seems like it could have a place in Zoo mirrors, except the GG cost could be an issue. When I've played Zoo, I've always regretted any game I didn't have access to RR.

[Aggro_zombies]

I can't help it , but I have to say it: He didn't talk about landstill. His nice analysis why Dreadstill doesn't make the cut doesn't show about landstill.. They're both different decks, with a very different play and winning strategy. They both have there own good and bad matchups.

1. Wild Nacatl exists. Landstill plays 6 StP effects maindeck. And 3 EE.
EE is too slow. Zoo also plays burn. With the number of nonbasics Landstill packs, PoP has to be a kick in the nuts (in b4 "we can just counter that." You have a limited number of counters, Zoo has a lot of threats, and you do occasionally have to tap lands on your main phase in order to win.).


I think landstill is THE deck to beat Counterbalance-based decks all night long. The meta isn't that unfriendly. A meta full of ANT and Dredge, that would be unfriendly. Landstill isn't played much, but when played, It will put up results.
The problem here is that the article argues that the meta isn't Counterbalance-based anymore. It's fast aggro based, where the aggro decks either run Force, Daze, and Standstill, or Bolt, Chain Lightning, and PoP. Landstill only has so many counterspells and has to do things during its main phase sometimes, making the idea that you can just counter the big things and mop up the rest with removal more "wishful thinking" than "actually likely to happen." You can focus specifically on beating Mefolk and Zoo, but most of your sweepers won't come online until you're nearly in alpha strike or burn range, and your one-for-one removal spells put you at a disadvantage in a long game, attrition war type scenario. Landstill really needs a hell of a clock to be able to take advantage of its sweepers, because otherwise the deck will get buried when Zoo or Merfolk reload and come at you again.

But maybe I'm just playing control decks wrong.

[voltron00x]

EE is too slow. Zoo also plays burn. With the number of nonbasics Landstill packs, PoP has to be a kick in the nuts (in b4 "we can just counter that." You have a limited number of counters, Zoo has a lot of threats, and you do occasionally have to tap lands on your main phase in order to win.).


The problem here is that the article argues that the meta isn't Counterbalance-based anymore. It's fast aggro based, where the aggro decks either run Force, Daze, and Standstill, or Bolt, Chain Lightning, and PoP. Landstill only has so many counterspells and has to do things during its main phase sometimes, making the idea that you can just counter the big things and mop up the rest with removal more "wishful thinking" than "actually likely to happen." You can focus specifically on beating Mefolk and Zoo, but most of your sweepers won't come online until you're nearly in alpha strike or burn range, and your one-for-one removal spells put you at a disadvantage in a long game, attrition war type scenario. Landstill really needs a hell of a clock to be able to take advantage of its sweepers, because otherwise the deck will get buried when Zoo or Merfolk reload and come at you again.

But maybe I'm just playing control decks wrong.

I mostly agree with this (in theory), however I'm not afraid to admit that my experience with Landstill is minimal.

I would think that Merfolk is an issue because Vial blanks counterspells and Merfolk does an excellent job interfering with sweepers (Daze, Cursecatcher, Force, plus Stifle for EE, and they can instant speed in uncounterable Lords using Vial against stuff like Firespout); certainly Landstill has creature control options for Zoo, but as noted that doesn't solve the considerable reach that Zoo has.

Again, my thought process was that Landstill isn't in great shape b/c of the popularity of Zoo and Merfolk, plus a relatively soft match-up against Dredge and some vulnerability to ANT. That's a lot of the DTB to have to worry about. As I said, I haven't tested Landstill extensively so its possible that I'm way off base... its just interesting that the large tournament data seems to suggest that what is stated above by Aggro_zombies is relatively accurate - BUT, it could just as easily be people aren't even playing Landstill. I don't have access to full metagames to make that determination.

[Bardo]

Not adding much to the conversation, but I don't think the mods will mind praise for hard work:

Yeah, just to clarify for anyone else, compliments on an author's work that don't have any other substance are not spam.

The day we start giving out warnings for random "awesome article" posts is the day I turn in my mod hat. :)

I'm at work so I haven't read this, but I look forward to it.

[Finn]

I'm glad you feel that way, Bardo. Spoken like a true author.

Matt, lemme tell ya. I can see that you have put a lot of work into these. It is a helluva hard thing to satisfy folks around here. I think most of us have been conditioned to seeing rather amateurish efforts. Yours have not been in that category. Bravo.

[keys]

With regards to your comments on Zoo Mirror, it's worth noting that e.g. Kitchen Finks is hardly an amazing card there. It's a 3-drop and while it doesn't die to one burn-spell, it does become too small to attack or block functioning mostly as a lifegain effect; handy, but not as good as another big creature and definitely not superior enough to your MD cards to spend SB slots on.

And Jitte runs the problem that as long as opponent has removal, equipping simply allows you to pay 2 to force them to use said removal. It's hardly an amazing tool in the mirror unless you have a lot of creatures too big to remove, and a lot of mana. And this is without accounting for Qasali Pride-Mage which again "wins" one mana when removing an equipped Jitte.


Frankly, one of the best mirror tools I've seen is Swords to Plowshares. The guy with the last big monster generally wins so packing 4 more cards that remove anything over smaller creatures or slower burn (depending on build) tends to be a backbreaker.

Best would of course be some form of card advantage, but most of the reasonable options are simply too slow or cost too much life to be usable vs. the more aggressive variants of the deck. Failing that, some more big dudes like Thoctars could definitely help.

Sylvan Library and Lightning Helix and two of the best cards in the mirror, from my experience. Library manip makes a huge difference when matches grind out, and Helix is incredibly effective at removing threats and cushioning burn. This isn't the Zoo thread though, so we probably shouldn't get into a discussion here.

[Happy Gilmore]

I'm surprised how different people have absorbed the message of this article. I feel, and I may be wrong, that it addressed the missconception that CB is going away. The data being presented is good evidence to the contrary. The article also highlights the continued evolution of CB in the metagame. What I would take away from this article is that CB decks have evolved to answer a metagame filled with decks like zoo, either through Firespout/Natural Order/Warmonk or other means. Counters other than CB are being replaced with EE and other mass removal spells to address the issue. I think it would be wrong to assume that Zoo is going to make CB go away, rather I think it is simply going to evolve.

[Aggro_zombies]

I'm surprised how different people have absorbed the message of this article. I feel, and I may be wrong, that it addressed the missconception that CB is going away. The data being presented is good evidence to the contrary. The article also highlights the continued evolution of CB in the metagame. What I would take away from this article is that CB decks have evolved to answer a metagame filled with decks like zoo, either through Firespout/Natural Order/Warmonk or other means. Counters other than CB are being replaced with EE and other mass removal spells to address the issue. I think it would be wrong to assume that Zoo is going to make CB go away, rather I think it is simply going to evolve.
This is true, but I think that the point of the article was that the driving force of the format is no longer Counterbalance. Look at it this way:

At the beginning of the year, Counterbalance was king. When you built a deck, what was the one matchup you couldn't have as a bad matchup? Counterbalance. Decks were developing to have a good Counterbalance matchup, because Counterbalance was Public Enemy #1 and therefore the driving force behind the evolution of the format.

Then, over the summer, the decks gunning for Counterbalance got what they wanted: a positive Counterbalance matchup. These decks then hated Counterbalance off its throne and Zoo then became the deck to beat. Counterbalance still existed, but conventional wisdom at the time said that it lost to Zoo, so Zoo was the more important matchup to worry about in terms of deck design and development. Zoo was therefore the driving force behind the evolution of the format.

Now we're seeing the Counterbalance lists responding to the new "development driver" in the format. They still exist, but the important thing to realize is that what they're being tuned to fight is not the mirror, but the aggro matchup. That's a pretty big sign that Counterbalance is no longer the most important deck, but as a strong deck it's not going to roll over and die in the same way that Rifter ceased to exist when decks other than Goblins began popping up.

Basically, Counterbalance is less important than it used to be, but that shouldn't lead to false assumptions that it's dead: it's just not the most important matchup anymore.

EDIT: @voltron00x: if people aren't playing Landstill, my assumption would be that it's because they're perceiving its relative weakness right now and avoiding it.

[Happy Gilmore]

Your right, the format isn't just CB, and thank god for that. Right now the format is the healthiest I have ever seen it. CB is there, can do well, but does not dominate.

Landstill isn't played because the concept of a dedicated control deck is outdated. They simply can't be justified when Agro-control has equal too or better match up records against the same decks. Ask any combo player, they would rather face landstill than any other blue deck in the format. There are obviously other reasons, but the standstill +manland concept is simply too slow at this point. Not to mention that the number of answers for Factory/shackles/Crucible has increased dramatically. Landstill hasn't gotten any better or any faster, but everything else has skyrocketed. Tempo thresh is the only deck I know of that has stayed practically the same over the transition and still puts up results.

[Hanni]

Your right, the format isn't just CB, and thank god for that. Right now the format is the healthiest I have ever seen it. CB is there, can do well, but does not dominate.

Landstill isn't played because the concept of a dedicated control deck is outdated. They simply can't be justified when Agro-control has equal too or better match up records against the same decks. Ask any combo player, they would rather face landstill than any other blue deck in the format. There are obviously other reasons, but the standstill +manland concept is simply too slow at this point. Not to mention that the number of answers for Factory/shackles/Crucible has increased dramatically. Landstill hasn't gotten any better or any faster, but everything else has skyrocketed. Tempo thresh is the only deck I know of that has stayed practically the same over the transition and still puts up results.

I 100% disagree with your Landstill assumption. Landstill hasn't done much in a while because fewer people are playing it in comparison to most of the other choices out, fewer people are working on developing it in comparison, so less innovation is being made and it's evolving slower.

I'm not sure if you keep up with the Landstill thread, but I've been playing a list of Landstill, the exact same list with no changes, for over 6 months now, and I think it's one of the strongest decks I've ever played with. However, the innovation that went into the deck took me months and months to get there, and while I've posted it multiple times in the Landstill thread, it's taking a very long time to get support. I cannot play in tournaments right now, I'm just not in a position to be able to do so for quite a while. I wish I could, because that seems to be the only way that new innovative decks get attention these days if you're not already a star like David Gearhart or the Hatfield's.

To answer the question you might be thinking right now, the list I'm referring to is U/W Counterbalance Landstill. While I've heard the criticisms over and over, like why should I play it instead of CounterTop Thresh or Dreadstill, etc etc... it's a really strong deck that fixes alot of problems that classic Landstill has.

The other thing is that, it's not really a dedicated control deck. Manlands might be slower than Tarmogoyf, sure, but they are still very strong because the fact that Standstill draws alot cards and Wrath of God is a powerful sweeper. If on the back of manlands alone, though, I totally agree with you. However, the deck has Elspeth now, which is truly savage. The deck can now play Elspeth on turn 4, or turn 5 if it needs to play around Daze, and can end the game in just a matter of turns if unanswered.

I also disagree somewhat that aggro/control decks have equal or better matchups against the same decks. CounterTop aggro/control is evolving to handle aggro, but that's already a matchup that Landstill answers pretty well. Aggro/control has a better combo matchup, but with Counterbalance in Landstill, Landstill's combo matchup isn't really bad anymore, especially with Meddling Mages out of the sideboard.

The worst matchup for Landstill is Dredge, which is pretty bad for CounterTop aggro/control too I do believe. However, (Counterbalance) Landstill has a better matchup against CounterTop aggro/control and other dedicated control decks, which makes it just as strong a deck choice as CounterTop aggro/control, IMO, if not stronger in certain metagames.

The fact is, any deck these days that is playing blue and playing any sort of control needs to either run a tempo package (Waste/Stifle/Snare/etc), or a Counterbalance package. The problem with Landstill is that so many players either don't like Counterbalance, or don't like change, and won't accept that adding Counterbalance is an important evolution for the survival of Landstill as an archetype.

However, I don't see Combo on the rise right now for that to be a huge concern anyway. Although, Combo would completely dominate the format right now if enough players piloted it, I think.

[voltron00x]

Leading up to Chicago, the perception that ANT was going to dominate the format is part of what led so many people to Counterbalance in my opinion, and also to Merfolk (as its good against both of those decks). I don't know about everyone else, but in 12 rds at Chicago between the GP and one trial, I played ANT 3 times and Merfolk twice, and only one CB/Top deck.

Also, just wanted to say thanks again for the kind words - the Source is somewhat notorious for being a tough crowd, but I think its really more that you're just a passionate crowd. Nothing wrong with that, if you ask me.

[neckfire]

Leading up to Chicago, the perception that ANT was going to dominate the format is part of what led so many people to Counterbalance in my opinion, and also to Merfolk (as its good against both of those decks). I don't know about everyone else, but in 12 rds at Chicago between the GP and one trial, I played ANT 3 times and Merfolk twice, and only one CB/Top deck.

Also, just wanted to say thanks again for the kind words - the Source is somewhat notorious for being a tough crowd, but I think its really more that you're just a passionate crowd. Nothing wrong with that, if you ask me.

im a dreadstill player iv been one for a long while but your article is great.I posted it on another forum i frequant alot.every point you made was well made.and it got me thinking which is the point of articles thanks for the good work you definitly have a new reader.

The sentiment of this post is kind, which is appreciated, but jeez, take a moment to write a decent post. I count at least 15 typos! How did you do that? Verbal warning for crimes against the English language. - Bardo

[adrieng]

I am kind of surprise that he didn't speak about tempo threshold, which has a good zoo matchup.
Furthermore, counterbalance.deck (URG) with maindeck lightning bolt+fire/ice can't lose to zoo never and has a good merfolk matchup.


Aggro Loam is more popular in Europe than in the U.S., and as a strategy it is also good against Zoo

Also this sentence is false, aggro loam (RBG) loses quite badly to zoo.

[from Cairo]

Landstill isn't played because the concept of a dedicated control deck is outdated.

This isn't true. The format has gotten faster, and as such the deck has needed to pick up some faster answers. A bunch of traditional UWb lists are running 6 Swords effects to mitigate the early game. The Montreal guys developed Ultimate Walker as another dedicated control deck, moving away from Standstills situational card draw in favor of Ancestral Visions, and adding Fire//Ice to supplement Swords and EE in the early game.


They simply can't be justified when Agro-control has equal too or better match up records against the same decks.

Only dedicated control smashes agro-control. Dedicated control also often has a stronger game against lock/prison archetypes since it's built with higher casting cost cards (Spheres and CotV are more symetrical), and the cards in the prison decks dedicated to deter agro are blanks. Agro-control is better against combo.

If one is going into an agro/agro-control meta, dedicated control is definitely a strong choice if it's tuned appropriately. If one is expecting a bunch of combo, agro-control is probably stronger.

[Forbiddian]

Before I start: Matt, your articles are great, they're factually accurate, (for the most part) a clean read, and provide spot on insights. The discussions surrounding your articles are the best on The Source, more proof that your ideas spawn more interest and rational thinking.


Only dedicated control smashes agro-control. Dedicated control also often has a stronger game against lock/prison archetypes since it's built with higher casting cost cards (Spheres and CotV are more symetrical), and the cards in the prison decks dedicated to deter agro are blanks. Agro-control is better against combo.

If one is going into an agro/agro-control meta, dedicated control is definitely a strong choice if it's tuned appropriately. If one is expecting a bunch of combo, agro-control is probably stronger.

I'll just define consistently as "Avoiding mana screws/floods, surviving mana screws/floods, and taking advantage of your opponent's mana screws/floods."

Control decks are less consistent than Aggro/Control decks.

Obviously there's more to magic than that, but a lot of people playtest a matchup maybe 10 games and then extrapolate that percentage into a win percentage (often at least somewhat based on how they felt their deck performed). With such a small sample size, you have to try to extrapolate. If you get mana screwed twice but win 4 games out of 10, and your opponent drew well, you'd probably say it's a 50% matchup, maybe even slightly in your favor. But if you take out mana floods or mulligans to five or other shit that happens (to you), you're missing the fact that those things happen much less often to Aggro/Control decks, who have a large range of acceptable lands and are generally better capable of dealing with floods and screws and taking advantage of your opponent's floods and screws.

People consistently overestimate Control's chances, greatly overestimate combo's chances, and underestimate Aggro's chances, especially against combo decks.


I played this guy online (not the best resource, but maybe this will be illuminating). He was on a borderline homebrew Ad Nauseum variant. We played six games, he lost the first four in a row. He mulled to oblivion, fizzled his combo, three times he went for it, but scooped to a single Daze or Force. When he won his one game, he said something to the effect of, "Yeah, see, if I don't get raped by luck, then I win."

I guess any rational tester would have gone, "Wow, my deck auto scoops to a single disruption element" or maybe even "I'm a bad combo player, I fizzled half the chances I got and walked blind into disruption when anything would cost me the game all day long."

Obviously most people aren't like *that*, but when you have a small sample size, it's very easy to throw out games where you feel that you got unfairly screwed over. You might even calculate the odds, "Wow, there's only a 1% chance I get mana screwed that badly." Or say the obviously incorrect, "If I just had one more land, I had that game." The fact is that just by playing a control deck, you give up all chances to "just win" like combo can sometimes. You have the game totally locked up, but then they have the trump hand. And you give up a lot of ability to take advantage of mana screws. And you accept that you're going to get mana screwed or answer screwed or make a game-costing error, or whatever else screwed more often than anybody else.


I haven't found that Landstill demolishes Aggro/Control at all. It's probably favorable, but nothing more than a metagamed Zoo would be. I have found that about a third of the time that you come up with a Wasteland, you win immediately due to a mana screw. And most double Waste or Waste+Stifle hands seal it up.

Maybe it's 60% in favor of Landstill, which is pretty good, but other decks can be metagamed to handle Aggro/Control as well. Merfolk, for instance.

[Bardo]

Excellent article. I liked the structure and style and the analysis seemed spot on. A couple of observations:

* Wtf is up with so many 3-of Leylines in sideboards? Seems much better to go 1 each Crypt/Relic/Planar Void. This is something I'll never understand.

* 3 vs 4 Top, 3 vs 4 CB.

Those presented (obviously lumping strategies--DS, NO, w/ or w/o Trinket Mage, etc.)

2 Top: 111 (n=3, 16%)
3 Top: 1111111 (n=7, 37%)
4 Top: 111111111 (n=9, 47%)

3 CB: 111 (n=3, 16%)
4 CB: 1111111111111111 (n=16, 84%)

* Re: Landstill. I don't want to start some shit storm and I know people like Geoff Smelksi (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?creator=Geoff+Smelski) consistently do well with Landstill, but I wonder how much "pet-decking" is involved with Landstill. People love the deck, even though the format has sort of left it behind, a kind of "Good ol' 'rock'. Nuthin' beats that!" (Bart Simpson) mentality.

[Happy Gilmore]

I just want to say one more thing about landstill then I'll leave it be. Landstill exists in the metagame competitively only as a variation based on a CB shell. I am extremely skeptical of any results posted by a Landstill deck without it. I'm very interested in the reasoning for having that frame over say, the Natural order, or Dreadstill variations and would love to hear it (although the land still thread would be more appropriate).

[SpencerForHire]

One thing I would like to mention:
I believe that the supposed decrease in frequency of CB/Top in a given metagame is a correct assessment. I also believe that this article gives a good idea of the reality of this decrease. CB/Top was a fad, however, it is a legitimately powerful combination of cards that is good against most things in the format and has not lost its viability; this is despite constant hate, decks based around "out curving" CB/Top and all matters of strategies. CB/Top has persevered.

The change in frequency is in fact due to the fad players going back to their normal styles and the players who would play CB/Top continue to play it because it is their style. In essence, the decrease of frequency was a balancing act as it fell into its "proper place" in the format (to where it is just as represented as any strategy of equal viability, not over represented due to hype).

I have little doubt that there will not be any ridiculous surge or decrease in the popularity of this deck in Legacy as it essentially right where it needs to be in popularity in the scheme of things. This article simply shows that it is a legitimate Tier 1 strategy that is still viable and will be in any gauntlet in multiple possible incarnations (Dreadstill/CounterTop/NO/etc...), it just will not be the only style of deck in any given field.

[Citrus-God]

I am extremely skeptical of any results posted by a Landstill deck without [Counterbalance].


Geoff Smelski....

[Skeggi]

I just want to say one more thing about landstill then I'll leave it be. Landstill exists in the metagame competitively only as a variation based on a CB shell. I am extremely skeptical of any results posted by a Landstill deck without it.
In your low-tournament American meta perhaps. Over here it's a deck to take into consideration, and no, it doesn't run in a CB shell.


* Re: Landstill. I don't want to start some shit storm and I know people like Geoff Smelksi (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?creator=Geoff+Smelski) consistently do well with Landstill, but I wonder how much "pet-decking" is involved with Landstill. People love the deck, even though the format has sort of left it behind, a kind of "Good ol' 'rock'. Nuthin' beats that!" (Bart Simpson) mentality.
The format didn't leave it behind, it's still doing well over here. And it's not because we never play Legacy and don't know what we're doing. We have 8 tournaments this month alone, and most are attended by at least 30 people.

On a side note:
http://www.funny.com/_fc/wm640/0/3/fn.CMGGA.jpg

In our meta, these are the 5 archetypes that are played most, leaving The Rock out of the equation, because it has a 50/50 match-up against everything:
ANT, which beats Landstill and Zoo, has a 50/50 chance on beating Merfolk and loses to CounterTop.
Zoo, which beats Merfolk, has a 50/50 chance against CounterTop and Landstill and loses to ANT.
Merfolk, which doesn't beat anything just like that anymore, has a 50/50 against Landstill, CounterTop and ANT, and loses to Zoo.
Landstill, which beats CounterTop, has a 50/50 chance against Merfolk and Zoo, and loses to ANT.
CounterTop, which beats ANT, has a 50/50 chance against Zoo and Merfolk and loses to Landstill.

The above list is stylised ofcourse, there are (alot of) nuances, but the basics boil down to this.

[Hanni]

In our meta, these are the 5 archetypes that are played most, leaving The Rock out of the equation, because it has a 50/50 match-up against everything:
ANT, which beats Landstill and Zoo, has a 50/50 chance on beating Merfolk and loses to CounterTop.
Zoo, which beats Merfolk, has a 50/50 chance against CounterTop and Landstill and loses to ANT.
Merfolk, which doesn't beat anything just like that anymore, has a 50/50 against Landstill, CounterTop and ANT, and loses to Zoo.
Landstill, which beats CounterTop, has a 50/50 chance against Merfolk and Zoo, and loses to ANT.
CounterTop, which beats ANT, has a 50/50 chance against Zoo and Merfolk and loses to Landstill.


Once the Landstill decks start running Counterbalance (and they should already be running Top), they will no longer autolose to ANT.

The Landstill players that run 4 Swords to Plowshares and 4 Path to Exile between maindeck and sideboard should have great matchups against Zoo and Merfolk. Counterbalance is also strong against Zoo.

I also expect that most of those Landstill decks are not running 4 Sensei's Divining Top, which is the most absurb card the deck has access to. 4 Brainstorm and 4 Top in Landstill drastically changes how well the deck plays.

[Skeggi]

Haven't you heard? Counterbalance sucks in Landstill. There's a reason they don't run it over here. Next to Counterbalance itself and Counterspell, there are no cmc2 spells in there. (There's, well, Standstill. 12x2cc is still too few though. ~NC) (Oh, right, but then again, Standstill and Counterspell are only played as a 3-of, so you end up with 10x2cc) With Landstill, you need cards that influence board position. Counterbalance doesn't cut it because you curve above your average Zoo player or ANT player. Landstill generally only plays 2-3 Tops, but adding the other ones won't be a problem I guess.

Here's an example of a 'good' Landstill:


// Lands
2 [MM] Island (3)
2 [ARE] Plains (7)
3 [TE] Wasteland
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [u] Underground Sea
4 [u] Tundra
1 [u] Scrubland
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats

// Creatures
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [LG] Moat
3 [OD] Standstill
1 [TE] Humility
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [IA] Counterspell
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [A] Wrath of God
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [CFX] Path to Exile

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [MOR] Negate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
Here's another example:


// Lands
1 [R] Scrubland
3 [GUR] Plains
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
3 [GUR] Island
1 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [IA] Counterspell
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [R] Wrath of God
1 [TE] Humility

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
These lists can remove anything a fast deck throws at him and stall long enough to balance the game, finally landing an Elspeth to seal the deal. It's pretty easy. Counterbalance doesn't do anything in these decks, except slow the deck down, making sure you do die before you can balance out.

[Misplayer]

The prospect of Counterbalance in Landstill has been beaten to death in the Landstill thread. My feeling is that at worst, it's a one-sided Chalice for 1, which automatically improves some of Landstill's tougher matchups. Countering anything else for free is just gravy (and 10-12 CMC2 cards is plenty, especially when paired with Spell Snare).

To post something on topic: I think SpencerForHire hit it on the head. It's not en vogue to play CBTop anymore. In my local meta, maybe 2 or 3 of us play it out of ~20 people (down from ~9-10 of us), but I still win a TON of games on the back of the soft-lock. I think once many players realized they can play something competitive like Zoo or Merfolk without playing Counterbalance, they jumped at that opportunity. Those aggro-style decks are also significantly easier to play well (and therefore finish well with) than CBTop. If anything, it's better for us players that enjoy the CBTop control strategy, because not everyone and their cousin is packing 4x Krosan Grip in the sideboard anymore (they just maindeck Pridemage/Vial instead).

[Kuma]

Fantastic article on a very relevant metagame issue.


I actually like Vincent’s list as compared to Ben Steiner’s list from Legacy Champs (also played by Johnathan Mosier, below). It gives up some consistency without Ponder (and some ability to find Natural Order), but it should have an easier time finding three-cost spells for Counterbalance, and the extra Trygon Predators and fourth War Monk seem like good metagame calls (and extra Green creatures are always useful with Natural Order). Vincent is also splashing Red for sideboard cards.

When I first saw Vincent's list, I was very excited at how he managed to fit all the cards I wanted in my UGW NO/CB list into his. Despite top-eighting at Legacy Champs with my list, I was ready to give mine up for his. But when I put his list into MWS and tried it, there were a few problems.

First of all, his list is 61 cards. I'm a firm believer that there is no 61 card list that can't be improved by cutting one card, and I'd like to see anyone provide a counterexample.

Second, I've found basic Plains to be weak in this kind of deck. You only run eight white cards, and none of them cost more than one white mana. You can also get white mana from Noble Hierarch off a basic Forest.

Third, Volcanic Islands in the main really suck. When you're trying to get :w::u::g: for Rhox War Monk, and :g::g: for Natural Order, Volcanic Islands are a pain in the ass. In most games, they're like basic Islands that are vulnerable to Wasteland, which is unacceptable. When I experimented with Firespout, I tried running two Volcanic Islands in my sideboard, but the package took up too many slots, and would often lead to me over-boarding. I also experimented with Dark Confidant, and trying to get black for him as well as white, blue, and green, was too difficult.

tl;dr --- If you run Natural Order and Rhox War Monk, there's no room for a fourth color, no matter how light the splash.

I've made a lot of changes to my list since Legacy Champs, and many of the changes came from my experimentation with his list. I agree that his list looks better than mine on paper; initially, even I thought as much. But when I played with it, it didn't work as well as mine.

Here's what I'm currently using, with good success:

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon Predator

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

SB:

1 Trygon Predator
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Propaganda
2 Ghostly Prison
4 Spell Pierce
3 Engineered Explosives

[The_Red_Panda]

When Skeggi heard these words, he saluted Happy Gilmore and said: 'What should I have to give you! but let me go quickly, that I may take nothing from you!' And thus they parted from one another, Happy Gilmore and Skeggi, laughing as two boys laugh. But when Skeggi was alone, he spoke thus to his heart: 'Could it be possible! This Happy Gilmore has not yet heard from his mother's basement, that Counterbalance is Dead!'


Sorry, I had to.

[voltron00x]

Fantastic article on a very relevant metagame issue.



When I first saw Vincent's list, I was very excited at how he managed to fit all the cards I wanted in my UGW NO/CB list into his. Despite top-eighting at Legacy Champs with my list, I was ready to give mine up for his. But when I put his list into MWS and tried it, there were a few problems.

First of all, his list is 61 cards. I'm a firm believer that there is no 61 card list that can't be improved by cutting one card, and I'd like to see anyone provide a counterexample.

Second, I've found basic Plains to be weak in this kind of deck. You only run eight white cards, and none of them cost more than one white mana. You can also get white mana from Noble Hierarch off a basic Forest.

Third, Volcanic Islands in the main really suck. When you're trying to get :w::u::g: for Rhox War Monk, and :g::g: for Natural Order, Volcanic Islands are a pain in the ass. In most games, they're like basic Islands that are vulnerable to Wasteland, which is unacceptable. When I experimented with Firespout, I tried running two Volcanic Islands in my sideboard, but the package took up too many slots, and would often lead to me over-boarding. I also experimented with Dark Confidant, and trying to get black for him as well as white, blue, and green, was too difficult.

tl;dr --- If you run Natural Order and Rhox War Monk, there's no room for a fourth color, no matter how light the splash.

I've made a lot of changes to my list since Legacy Champs, and many of the changes came from my experimentation with his list. I agree that his list looks better than mine on paper; initially, even I thought as much. But when I played with it, it didn't work as well as mine.

Here's what I'm currently using, with good success:

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon Predator

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

SB:

1 Trygon Predator
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Propaganda
2 Ghostly Prison
4 Spell Pierce
3 Engineered Explosives

Does Propaganda being vulnerable to Pyro and REB make it a worse choice than Ghostly Prison, even though it can be pitched to FoW?

[Kuma]

Does Propaganda being vulnerable to Pyro and REB make it a worse choice than Ghostly Prison, even though it can be pitched to FoW?

It depends. Ghostly Prison dodges red blasts, but gets hit by Anarchy (some Goblin lists run it to deal with Progenitus, Enchantress, and Armageddon Stax). Propaganda pitches to FoW and is a little easier to cast, but gets hit by Belcher and TES's blasts.

The only decks you're going to bring in Propaganda/Ghostly Prison for are Goblins, Ichorid, and decks that run Empty the Warrens. Most decks that run EtW run red blasts, while few Goblin decks run them. Propaganda is strictly better against Ichorid.

That's why I run the 2/2 split. It's really too meta-dependent to give a straight answer, but I'm leaning towards 4 Propaganda.

[FoulQ]

@ Kuma: A minor note but blasts are way more common than anarchy in most metagames in goblins. But of course Ghostly will be better against EtW decks because of blasts.

[SMR0079]

Kuma,

How has the Merfolk match been playing out?

I ran the red splash to combat Folk but ended up losing a close match to Zoo becasue of mana issues and realize that the fourth color will bite you in the long run.

[Kuma]

Kuma,

How has the Merfolk match been playing out?

I ran the red splash to combat Folk but ended up losing a close match to Zoo becasue of mana issues and realize that the fourth color will bite you in the long run.

Pretty solid. Firespout puts the matchup over the top, but you don't need it. Focus your efforts on taking out Lord of Atlantis, drop Rhox War Monk and beat. If you can resolve a Natural Order, they've got no answers to Progenitus. Side in Engineered Explosives and Trygon Predator for Counterbalance.

I'm like 4-1 against Merfolk with my list.

[mossivo1986]

i think its both completely unfair and retarded to compair threshhold to landstill for the most part. besides for perhaps the one instance of hanni's build and how it functions as a white splash thresh variant without the efficient critters general landstill (vindicate,wish) has adapted quite nicely to the current meta. not only is merfolk only a 60-40 preboard for most wish variants (my specialty) but vindicate variants have and even better preboard matchup based on more interactiveness in wasteland as well as more removal in vindicate. post board wether its preacher or plague both matchups increase greatly based on card quality over efficiency as well as but also the fact that merfolk has little to no card drawing outside of multiple standstill breaks or kantriping silvegill's the fact that landstill should (and does in most cases) runs top allows it to fight those long grudging top deck wars for resources/removal the like.

dredge is actually pretty close to even forces or no forces (for dredge.) and bloodghust is eaten by ep the same as ichorid is. i've thoroughly tested the non led version (consistency above explosiveness) and outside of the obvious nuts the matchup is playable with ep in place of crypt or relic, though obviously they both help.

ant is probobly the hardest matchup based on that you have 0 efficient threats (goyf qasali) mishra is far too slow by itself (alone) in my opinion and testing. though obviously siding in cb on 1 and 0 is incredibly easy for landstill and thus it can give u that soft lock that will bid u time with fac beats plus or minus elspeth decree and the like.

zoo is tough as well but its the same scenario as ant. you set up cb on 1. f their board and drive it hope protecting your board position with a combination of more efficient creature removal. and if needed wish for pulse.
(i can explain it further but its simple math that beats zoo)

overall the lack of landstill durives from the following.

1. new players are turned

[mossivo1986]

because it plays a very grinding out style of play. which causes long rounds which lots of players do not enjoy. bottom line magic players like to win and win fast.

2. its difficult to get correct information from any sort of online thread because alot of landstill players have under a year of experience. (it takes a while to fully grasp landstills rolls and hand positions in each match)

3. the deck doesnt just autowin a large percentage of its matchups. it has alot (maybe the most) 50-50 matchups in the format but alot of mu are based on knowledge of the pilot. it is this lack that is my main reason why you dont see it at the sc 5ks.

[Skeggi]

When Skeggi heard these words, he saluted Happy Gilmore and said: 'What should I have to give you! but let me go quickly, that I may take nothing from you!' And thus they parted from one another, Happy Gilmore and Skeggi, laughing as two boys laugh. But when Skeggi was alone, he spoke thus to his heart: 'Could it be possible! This Happy Gilmore has not yet heard from his mother's basement, that Counterbalance is Dead!'


Sorry, I had to.
Translation please?

I've made my point: Counterbalance is on the rise again. I'm standing by it. Yesterday I went to the Dutch Legacy Championships, where 138 people attended. I made top 8 with The Rock, eating up 4 CounterTop decks on my way there (in 8 Swiss rounds).

[The_Red_Panda]

Its Nietzsche. Famous quote from the prologue to Zarathustra. Obviously not famous enough, however. Also, I clearly misinterpreted where you stood on the issue; if you think counterbalance is on the rise again, this quote doesn't apply to you in the sense I meant it.

The quote itself refers to the metaphorical death of counterbalance. As in dead deck, nobody should be/is playing it. Given your viewpoint, the quote should be re-stated as


When Skeggi heard these words, he saluted Happy Gilmore and said: 'What should I have to give you! but let me go quickly, that I may take nothing from you!' And thus they parted from one another, Happy Gilmore and Skeggi, laughing as two boys laugh. But when Skeggi was alone, he spoke thus to his heart: 'Could it be possible! This Happy Gilmore has not yet heard from his mother's basement, that Counterbalance is Dead in Landstill!'

With the only change being "in landstill". I'm of the opinion that counterbalance (at least in the traditional non-supremeblue variants) is leaving the meta due to pressure from various decks that have been given incredibly potent tools to beat it (ie. Zoo). In that sense counterbalance is "dead".

Also, I said that Happy Gilmore lives in his mother's basement. Snicker.

[Raindown]

Anyone still been trying out those NO Prog decks? how are the results?

[voltron00x]

Anyone still been trying out those NO Prog decks? how are the results?

Still competitive, I'd say. This list came in 8th at the last $5K:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=30541

[JudasKilled]

CBs not dead its just not the only way to play legacy. It will always be good its just not 70% win rate anymore its 50/50 some better some worse.

IMO landstill/dreadstill are now unplayable garbage. But hey just my opinion.