It's Hard Out There for A Pro

[Meister_Kai]

So I started playing Magic again this year, legacy specifically, but just to change things up I started playing limited as well. As I try to catch up on years of limited (mostly draft) philosophy, I read the words of figures such as Luis Scott Vargas and Patrick Chapin (I stopped reading Ruel when not only did I disagree with the majority of his draft picks, but he seemed to lose most drafts pretty early).

These people are what most would consider "pros". They obviously dedicate a pretty large chunk of their life to playing this game. My question is how do these people live? Are most of them married? Do they have jobs? If so, what occupancy do most pros have? I have heard about the Ruel brothers living the "pro tour lifestyle". What does this mean? I think I heard Chris Pikula (sp?) in particular is a stock broker or something crazy.

The reason I ask this is because I have always wanted to become great at Magic and for the most part have always had the time, just not the talent to work with. The time frame in which I could devote this time is basically gone though, but I would still like a little of what it would take to be so good.

[frogboy]

Pikula works for Susquehanna, but that's atypical, and I don't know if he was working on Wall Street when he was a grinder. LSV just got married. Most of the 20somethings on the train derive most of their income from Magic and writing about Magic. A fairly large minority grind online poker. Some, but not all, are college students or hold some part time position.

[Meister_Kai]

Pikula works for Susquehanna, but that's atypical, and I don't know if he was working on Wall Street when he was a grinder. LSV just got married. Most of the 20somethings on the train derive most of their income from Magic and writing about Magic. A fairly large minority grind online poker. Some, but not all, are college students or hold some part time position.

Your post raises some questions:

How old is the average "pro"? At what age do most people start "grinding" (which entails going to various PTQ's, but what else)? How do you derive money playing magic (how much is the average pro's income)? How much money do writers actually make?

I'm not even going to ask about the poker part, I assumed more or less every pro grinds the shit out of poker for the majority of their income. I also wonder what kind of "part time positions" pros could have.

[Skeggi]

I know a couple of Dutch pro's. They attempt a study next to playing magic. Another one has his own games company and organizes alot of tournaments in The Netherlands, he's a big magic-guru around here.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

How old is the average "pro"?

without doing the research or doing any actual number crunching: I read all the GP/PT coverage, including all the player's bios, and it seems most people who top 8 at these, average about 23-25. Like I said, i didnt check any numbers, but I know from reading the bios that most "pros" are a couple years younger than me.

[Meister_Kai]

Thanks for all the information guys, does anyone know how/where I could find more info? Would be greatly appreciated.

[Piceli89]

Now, just a stupid question: what will they do when they'll get tired of playing cardbaords? I Mean, if you devote your 20-to-30 yrs old time to do this, you won't be able to find a good work if you'll decide to do something different when you'll get older.
Sure, living and earning from playing Magic is awesome and all, but I guess it's kind of a bet on your own future.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Now, just a stupid question: what will they do when they'll get tired of playing cardbaords? I Mean, if you devote your 20-to-30 yrs old time to do this, you won't be able to find a good work if you'll decide to do something different when you'll get older.
Sure, living and earning from playing Magic is awesome and all, but I guess it's kind of a bet on your own future.

I agree with this somewhat, but normally people that good at statistics games are smart and can probably find a decent job doing something somewhere. If not they can just go play poker (can't say that's a very fun job though...).

[Mr. Fantastic]

It seems to me that "pro" is simply a title; only a very small handful of people have derived enough income from the game to support themselves solely by playing, and thus, if one is to define "pro" as a full time professional player, very few people have the potential to qualify as such. To me, the title pro basically comes from someone playing on the Pro Tour; if you've played on the PT you're loosely a "pro" though not necessarily a professional in the literal sense of the word.

I think in the history of the game there have been very few people with the talent necessary to make a living playing Magic (specifically, Kai, Jon, Nassif, maybe Bob, the Ruels, and some Japanese dudes). And the thing of it is, if you have the skills/attributes required to succeed at Magic, you probably can put them to better use doing something else.

I have seen Ben Rubin around on PokerStars full ring $400 NL and would assume he relies on poker for most of his income. Finkel manages a hedge fund. Gary Wise edits a poker blog, wisehandpoker.com, though it looks like he has been neglecting it as of late. Mark Justice used to own/manage a card store in Utah and now he sells car insurance, apparently.

I'm pretty sure most of the pros from the late 90s and early 2000s achieved the bulk of their success while still in college/grad school.

[Mr. Fantastic]

Oh, and to address your specific question about Vargas and Chapin, I guess Vargas is sponsored by a site called channelfireball.com and gets some money out of that deal. I don't say it to disparage him as I still hold him in high regard, but Chapin used to support himself by selling large quantities of ecstacy and spent 2 years in prison recently after his partner got knicked by the feds and ratted him out. He was going to do 15 years but the key witness scheduled to testify against him died of an overdose. From what I understand, most of his articles on SCG were written from prison (can anyone confirm this?) using Mike Flores as a stenographer over the phone.

Personally, I am a registered libertarian and think it is outrageous that any drugs are illegal to possess, sell, or distribute in the US...but I don't want to thread jack by going off on a tangent. Instead let me just say that I admire him turning his life around and moving forward in a positive direction.

[Meister_Kai]

Chapin used to support himself by selling large quantities of ecstacy and spent 2 years in prison recently after his partner got knicked by the feds and ratted him out. He was going to do 15 years but the key witness scheduled to testify against him died of an overdose. From what I understand, most of his articles on SCG were written from prison (can anyone confirm this?) using Mike Flores as a stenographer over the phone.

Oh wow, I do believe a "HOLY SHIT" is in order.

You are right however, I didn't narrow the information I wanted down enough, I was mainly asking about people who support themselves solely on Magic and how they live their lives. I just sort of figured that "not so pro, pros" sucked it up and drove to every event, attempting to manage their real job with their hobby.

[Mr. Fantastic]

There used to be a guy in my neck of the woods named Andy Stokinger (webmaster of the infamous teamacademy.com) who drove to PTQs like 5 states away every weekend in between going to college and working as an online card dealer. I remember him talking about the hefty credit card debt he accrued by attending Worlds 2002. It's one of those things I never really thought about before as a so called amateur player, but it really costs a fuckton of money to fly around the world and stay in a hotel for a week (in addition to whatever you need to spend on cards, food, etc.) Back then the bubble was top 64 and you got $500 for finishing there. I just looked it up and he finished 77th, btw. What a needle.

[yawg07]

Yeah, doesn't Andy Stok still run OvertheEdge?

[Misplayer]

@yawg: Yeah he does, although he closed his B&M Worcester, MA location recently. I, along with a handful of other sourcers, would play ELD's Legacy events there recently. Andy would often be around and would occasionally play Battle of Wits.dec or Coalition Victory.dec. I think the Worcester physical store just wasn't worth the time and money he was putting into it.

[Adan]

As far as I know, a lot of German "pros" or "semi-pros" are students.

Team SPOD are all students as well (Clemens and I are an exception, Clemens does his social service in Lome whereas I am still stuck in school for 5 months until I begin my social service as well). But Clemens and I are on our best ways to university.

Our Vintage community consists of students predominatly, some of the players already work at some IT-solution companies, one is a IT-tutor at University and the other one finally started his apprenticeship at hospital.

But the most important aspect is that these people are all cool guys you can also go to party with. But I hate MtG for stigamatizing me, NEVER tell a girl you are playing that shit, NEVER. Only when it's too late for her.

[jazzykat]

But I hate MtG for stigamatizing me, NEVER tell a girl you are playing that shit, NEVER. Only when it's too late for her.

Correct. It's probably more of a dealbreaker than being gay?

[Patrick]

Correct. It's probably more of a dealbreaker than being gay?

It's not the "playing Magic" part that drives the girls away. It's the "breath that smells like an asshole" and "I can smell you 5 feet away" part that keeps them at bay. Remember boys: shower.

[georgjorge]

Another interesting question: Does anybody know of Pros (read: who make a living out of playing Magic) who had a career longer than, say, five years? It seems to me that almost no-one who was playing at the highest level ten years ago is still doing so (but I don`t really follow the scene, so correct me if I´m wrong). Did they get tired of the game, get pushed out by younger and more up-to-date players, or just get jobs that made them more money than they ever could make playing the game?

[MattH]

It's not the "playing Magic" part that drives the girls away. It's the "breath that smells like an asshole" and "I can smell you 5 feet away" part that keeps them at bay. Remember boys: shower.
Also, have diverse interests. If all you can talk about is Magic and video games, are you surprised no one wants to talk to you outside the game store?

[Mr. Fantastic]

Also, have diverse interests. If all you can talk about is Magic and video games, are you surprised no one wants to talk to you outside the game store?

My mom thinks I'm cool. :wink:

[ParkerLewis]

Correct. It's probably more of a dealbreaker than being gay?

All right, brag time : a few years ago, a (beautiful) girl actually tried playing Magic to get closer to me. Never happened though as I was über-madly in love with another girl (having just gotten out of an otherwise, and prior to that, nice relationship because of it, so she really had no chance at the time).

[Arctic_Slicer]

Thanks for all the information guys, does anyone know how/where I could find more info? Would be greatly appreciated.

A lot of the more established pros make a pretty good income on the appearance fees alone. You should definitely check out the pro players club page (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=protour/playersclub/guidelines) to see the various perks for each level.

Just look at the rewards for level 8:


Level 8

* Member is invited to his or her country's national championship
* Members receives three byes at all Grand Prix tournaments
* Member is invited to all Pro Tours and the World Championship
* Member receives a $2250 appearance fee whenever he or she competes in a Pro Tour or the World Championship
* Member receives expenses-paid air travel ticket and hotel accommodations at all Pro Tours and the World Championship during the current season*
* Member receives a $500 appearance fee whenever he or she competes in a Grand Prix


If you do the math a level 8 player who attends every pro tour and grand will earn $18,000 in appearance fees alone just for showing up any playing in a tournament regardless of how well they place. We aren't even counting any prizes that they could win on top of that and they are already making as much as I do in a year just for playing magic. Pretty cool eh?

[ParkerLewis]

A lot of the more established pros make a pretty good income on the appearance fees alone. You should definitely check out the pro players club page (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=protour/playersclub/guidelines) to see the various perks for each level.

Just look at the rewards for level 8:



If you do the math a level 8 player who attends every pro tour and grand will earn $18,000 in appearance fees alone just for showing up any playing in a tournament regardless of how well they place. We aren't even counting any prizes that they could win on top of that and they are already making as much as I do in a year just for playing magic. Pretty cool eh?

All fine and dandy, but :

- How many level 8 pros are they ? According to wizards, there are 8 (Marcio Carvalho, Martin Juza, Shuuhei Nakamura, Gabriel Nassif, Olivier Ruel, Tomoharu Saitou, Luis Scott-Vargas, Yuuya Watanabe) in the whole world.

- How much time do you have to dedicate to get there ? For what, 18k a year ? Sure you better be winning big cash tournaments to get level 8 in the first place (yeah, i heard those guys are), so you'll get more, but still. i'm sorry but 18k a year is pretty shitty if that means dedicating the equivalent of a full time job, which does look like it if you do want to participate in all those tournaments to reach the 18k in appearance fees (ie all PTs & all GPs, and you're not allowed to drop). It's like what, a bit more than minimum wage... ? And we're talking about the 8 most successful players in the world here.

So clearly no, you won't be willing to live off of your Magic revenues entirely.