(T.C.S.) Tezzeret Combo Stax

[mossivo1986]

Welcome to Tezzeret Combo Stax (T.C.S.) I would like to first start off and state that this is a work in progress. The list presented is in no way a concrete list and it should be said that I am looking to fine tune this hardened piece of blue steal. (R.I.P Bo.)

Some thanks is in order
1. Geoff Smelski/raiderbob and the rest of Team Left Field. Thank you for the concept. I hope the idea developes into something we can all be proud of.



Lands: 22
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
10 [ZEN] Island (4)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod


Combo's: 13
2Grindstone + 3Painter
3Mana Severance + 1G. Charbelcher
3Metalworker + 1Staff of D.


Fast Mana: 3(metalworker makes6)
3 [SH] Mox Diamond
3 Metalworker


Draw/tutor: 10
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
3 [RAV] Compulsive Research
3 [ALA] Tezzeret the Seeker


Protection:10
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void


Utility:2
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge

A Sideboard is in the works
sb: as of now
2 trinisphere
2 glen alandra
2 back to basics
4 tanglewire
2 crucible of worlds
3 propaganda

[Skeggi]

Wrong forum?

Something relevant: since Metalworker is both a combo piece and much needed acceleration, shouldn't you run 4? I would also prefer a 4 Chalice/2 Trinisphere split over a 3/3 one. Chalice@1 is often more deadly anyway. And where's Trinket Mage? Faerie Stompy's strength lies in the card, because with Trinket Mage you can consistently get your Chalice@1, the killer of so many decks. You should include it before Compulsive Research.

[mossivo1986]

Wrong forum?
I just noticed that I must have acidently clicked the wrong button on the main menu. haha I'll alert a mod. Thanx.:tongue:



Something relevant: since Metalworker is both a combo piece and much needed acceleration, shouldn't you run 4?

1. I do not want to run into 2 in a game (Tested)
2. I do not want any additional dead cards if at all possible (I'm already discarding situationally dead cards as it is. I get rid of them with the obv I.E. Thirst, compulsive etc.)
3. That perticular combo is alot more difficult to get (3 arti's in hand plus worker activation plus staff/tezz) It's only happened once so far, because its more of a "psuedo" combo.


I would also prefer a 4 Chalice/2 Trinisphere split over a 3/3 one.

I'm not sure how I feel about this. I'll test it. I've never done much swapping around but I assume thats actually probobly better. The only problem I see is grindstone raping my face with it's 1cc.


Chalice@1 is often more deadly anyway.
I agree.


where's Trinket Mage?
Compulsive research slot. It bites me in the ass in some match-ups. In other its far superior. I also only go for challice or grindstone, neither of which I want to be tutoring (with this slot)


Faerie Stompy's strength lies in the card, because with Trinket Mage you can consistently get your Chalice@1, the killer of so many decks. You should include it before Compulsive Research.
I do not think you can compare the other stompy/ stax variants to this deck. Testing will help you see that. It wins faster most of the time, and it doesn't have the extreme card disadvantage that all of them have. the difference is that I sacrifice some universally stronger cards for combo pieces that can and can not interact well with each other. Im also alot less dedicated to the stax play then the other variations are. I can easily have them or not have them in my opener. Because of these reasons I do not want to dedicate too much to the stax approach.

also to note: I just realized with the 4/2 split trini is less likely to bit me in the ass with force. Im making the switch now.

[deadlock]

Since there is no card explanation, i just have to guess:

-Why no Fact or Fiction above Thirst or Compulsive?
There is both not advantage in putting an artifact or land in your graveyard, also Fact plays better with Worker, abusing the huge mana generation.

-Why 3 different two-card combos, which no synergy between them?
Besides the 3 Worker you run 10 pieces that are dead on their own. (Painter is not abused outside the combo). If you want we can discuss the merits of each combo, but in the end just going for Worker+Staff looks best for obvious reasons.
Why not 4 Worker + 1-2 Staff, with a possible alternate in the board.

Having a solution to aggro (Ensnaring Bridge) does not fall under utility, its essential.

Beside this, i am very interested in the archtype and appreciate the work you have done.

[mossivo1986]

Since there is no card explanation
I just haven't had the time but i'll try to explain as I go along and develop it alittle more thoroughly.


Why no Fact or Fiction above Thirst or Compulsive?

While I do understand the power of Fact or Fiction (Landstill is my main archtype) this deck doesn't want the card.

1. Heavy on the curve.
2. gives too much information, expecially in multiples.
3. Easy splits for opponents once they've grasped what im doing.
4. Compulsive smooths out land floods while also hiding information and is efficient as hell.


There is both not advantage in putting an artifact or land in your graveyard.

The advantage here is that im able to dump options that I can then pick up later if I need to. Crucible + ruins allows for this interaction.


also Fact plays better with Worker, abusing the huge mana generation.


Compulsive does the same thing virtually. The only difference is you dont show your opponent/ have them split what they can obviously see in play and the fact or fiction split. Smart opponents will not break FOF in your favor or make a mistake on the split very often. Usually fact is your retooling card and if they split correctly its more often a waste that 1 extra mana in my opinion. Test it. Its not pretty.



-Why 3 different two-card combos, which no synergy between them?
the worker combo is a 1 of strategy that randomly wins. The slot could be dropped for stax as its rarely effective. It just seems like a good alternate that instantly wins you the game based on one slot. It will probobly be dropped in the long run though.


Besides the 3 Worker you run 10 pieces that are dead on their own. (Painter is not abused outside the combo).

I agree but its the versatility that im looking to establish. id like to make them all work but who knows.


If you want we can discuss the merits of each combo, but in the end just going for Worker+Staff looks best for obvious reasons.

as i said before the worker staff combo has won me 1 game out of the testing ive done. Thats like 1 and 50 matches. Its probobly going to be dropped. (Staff)


Having a solution to aggro (Ensnaring Bridge) does not fall under utility, its essential.

lol. Probobly. Its won me a lot of games.


Beside this, i am very interested in the archtype and appreciate the work you have done.

do some testing and we'll work together on it. Im glad your showing interest. Its TONS of fun to play. Probobly the best laughs ive had in a long time with magic.

I remember countless times irl going... oh noes its a belcher. you is a going ta die. That shit is priceless let me tell you.

[jurda]

I've been testing a mystical tutor in place of the third mana severance, with mostly positive results. Try it and see if you get similar results

[mossivo1986]

i had thought about it, but the argument was that it didnt have that many applications in the deck.

[nodahero]

Out of curiosity have you guys examined the extended Tezz lists from last season? Conceptually they seem extremely similar...

If I might be so bold as to make a suggestion... Try cutting the Painters and the Workers... As has been mentioned they are essentially dead on their own... Not to mention you then also turn on your opponents removal which would otherwise have set idly by for the most part (barring the Tez activation to kill).

If the above idea was tried you could then switch it to a more tradional Staxx build upping the the 3Sphere count to the "proper" 4 (Force is still really good). Then you could also add the 4th diamond and run 4 Propaganda and still have 2 slots to play with. The extra 2 slots could be Smokestacks for the longer control matches... They could be an additional Ensnaring bridge for Aggro... They could be a 3rd Tez... You could even test Thopterfoundry and Sword of the Meek. I tested that in a Gifts list recently and was extremely happy with it.

Just some thoughts. I will prolly sleeve this up and start testing it.

[mossivo1986]

sword combo i will look into.

dropping painter grindstone seems bad but ill look into it.

this is not like the tezzerator deck in extended. atleast last i checked.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Cool! Good to see the manabase is working out better, it has improved since I last saw it.

I actually am starting to really like replacing the Painter combo with the Sword of the Meek combo, since both halves of the Painter combo are bad on their own, but Thopter foundry is not terrible on its own. That also allows you to drop the Sword of the Meek into the graveyard with your Compulsive Researchs if need be. The only problem would be getting the off-color mana when you don't see a Mox.

Which matchups do you side in Tangle Wire for?

[nodahero]

You dont necessarily need the off color mana... Tez can put the Foundry into play. Not to mention you could also adjust the manabase a bit to be similar to the manabase found in dutch stax.

When refering to the Tez deck in exteneded I was refering to the misc card choices it used. The meta game speed wise was comparitively fast to the current metagame we face now. Some of the card choices and counts they used may be of help here.

[mossivo1986]

rockout reminded me that mox gets foundry.

so 4 mox is essential. ill redocus with foundry in.

[FieryBalrog]

Having three different 2-card combos is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. Metalworker + Staff of Domination is enough, Painters + Grindstone both pieces are horrible on their own and eat up valuable deck slots, almost as bad with Mana Severance + Belcher. You can always just win with Tezzeret anyway.

Also Metalworker should be a 4 of, and I would consider running Winter Orb in a deck that runs Metalworker.

Finally, there aren't quite enough cards to support Force of Will, which also works badly with Trinisphere.

[mossivo1986]

Having three different 2-card combos is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. Metalworker + Staff of Domination is enough, Painters + Grindstone both pieces are horrible on their own and eat up valuable deck slots, almost as bad with Mana Severance + Belcher. You can always just win with Tezzeret anyway.

Also Metalworker should be a 4 of, and I would consider running Winter Orb in a deck that runs Metalworker.

Finally, there aren't quite enough cards to support Force of Will, which also works badly with Trinisphere.

as stated i will be dropping painter g stone for thopter foundry combo. this will reduce the overall anti synergystic tone the deck has had. since im txting via phone i am being alittle lazy about explaning things. but having 2 combos isnt all that bad. (staff of domination) is and i repeat not the way to go. its not consistent. its reliant on metalworker being active and having 3 artifacts in hamd whic is troublesome. thats why its a 1 of. the decks new form will involve only char mana and thopter combo. this will open the deck up for tanglewire crucible which is needed alot.

also force isnt bad. trinisphere isnt bad. read up on faerie stompy.

winter orb will not be making the cut. its too conditional.

[Waikiki]

I wouldn't play more then 2 combo's This leaves you with more slots for control elements.

[Skeggi]

Yeah, 1 combo, and the Thopter one seems the best for the job since Tezz can tutor up both combo pieces.

I would go -3 Mana Severance, -1 Belcher, -1 Compulsive, +1 Thopter Foundry, +4 Trinket Mage. You really want to have that Chalice@1. When including Trinket Mage you may want to consider a toolbox, but it's not needed. It helps alot for Tormod's Crypt in your sideboard, so good against Ichorid or Reanimator. You don't have to mull to Tormod's Crypt, a turn 1 Trinket Mage is even better.

[mossivo1986]

I will be keeping thopter and charbelcher. I'll probobly remove the staff atleast to the board if not all together. While its cool, its very clunky and I honestly do not need anymore clunkiness.

Trinket mage is irrelivent to me (tested) I honestly havent been blown away by anything wih 1cc. before it was qasali, vindicate effects.

[nodahero]

While the value of Trinket packages in a deck such as ours can be relatively high--This version stands to gain the least from control decks running it. The "current" (i.e. the one esquing the Metalworkers) version has one significant advantage it will lose with the inclusion of Trinket Mage. At the moment our list runs no creatures thus nullifying any opposing removal until when Tez's ultimate may be used but then we often have more than sufficient damage on board.

If we were to run a Trinket Package I would suggest running it in the board. Having a Trinket Package in the main decreased the consistency of our decks early plays which is very bad. We need "relevant" turn 1 and 2 plus possibly 3 plays or we sill likely fall to far behind. However post board depending on the match-up and deck build we can easily slaughter certain decks with a properly built list. For example against Ichorid if we were so inclined to run Propaganda as I suggest then come game 2 we can turn 1 Trinket for grave hate and play grave hate turn 1 or depending on what we pick... not to mention we also get the option of turn 1 or turn 2 Propoganda stalling even more time. This however would be less useful game 1 because we would not know to go Trinket turn 1 for Relic/Crypt... Game 2 however we would while also knowing Smokestack is irrelevant giving an obvious card to board out.

[Kangaxx]

I wouldn't play more then 2 combo's This leaves you with more slots for control elements.

Doesn't running multiple combos give the deck some resiliency?

@the Winter Orb idea - Don't forget to throw in Propaganda in that type of build.

[nodahero]

Certainly running more combos gives the deck more resilency. The problem with more combos is that it also gives it more inconsistencies and dead cards when alone.

I do agree though that if you are running winter orb and not propaganda... you better be in a solidarity laced meta.

[deadlock]

I saw some people mentioning Smokestack.. which doesnt look that strong in here. I always saw Smokestack as a card you need to fully commit to via 4 Crucible and perhaps Flagstones or leave it out.

In my opinion TCS shouldnt try to go for the grind out game, instead stabilize the game long enough through disruption pieces to win the game with a combo (whichever it will be).

On the combo, on second thought, Thoper and Sword look like to be the most resilient, because it does not involve a creature. I dont count Belcher / Severance, because one piece is not an artifact and cant be tutored for / reccured. An additional bonus is that the combo would increase the power of Thirst, being able to pitch Sword and return it later by sacrificing any artifact with Foundry in play.
Would the inclusion of Sword of the Meek warrant the inclusion of Blinkmoth Nexus?

Kicking Worker out would make creature removal completly dead in game one, which could be abused in game 2.

[Kangaxx]

Certainly running more combos gives the deck more resilency. The problem with more combos is that it also gives it more inconsistencies and dead cards when alone.

I do agree though that if you are running winter orb and not propaganda... you better be in a solidarity laced meta.

I think you might be wrong. Running TFK and C. Research solves any inconsistency issues so playing multiple combos seems practical. Playing a 60 card deck with just combo peices and counters is another story.

[mossivo1986]

There are only 4 permission spells in the deck :).

On the other hand there are lock pieces and i'm curious to see how much can I get away with.

[mossivo1986]

Also to note I'd like to change up the sideboard

sb:
1 tanglewire
3 trinisphere
2 tormod's crypt
1 Staff of dom. (For now and partially because I want to get a dommo altered art staff of domination. I think it would be hillarious.)
X # of Chill?

the rest is in the air but under consideration should be
masticore
ensnaring bridge

Can some people start revamping lists so i can get ideas?

[Skeggi]

Trinket mage is irrelivent to me (tested) I honestly havent been blown away by anything wih 1cc. before it was qasali, vindicate effects.
Chalice@1 stops more than just Thoughtseize, Duress, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Aether Vial or Nimble Mongoose. It stops Brainstorm, Ponder and Sensei's Divining Top: you stop your opponent's ability to find an answer; that Qasali Pridemage, that Vindicate. Every Tier 1 deck in the format relies heavily on cmc1 spells. Chalice makes about one third of their cards dead. How is that not something you'd want? If I see a blue deck with a stompy manabase, Trinket Mage and Chalice of the Void are auto-includes in my book.

[deadlock]

Can some people start revamping lists so i can get ideas?

// Lands
3 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [B] Tundra
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [B] Underground Sea
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
6 [CS] Snow-Covered Island

// Creatures
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [CS] Phyrexian Ironfoot

// Spells
3 [ALA] Tezzeret the Seeker
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
2 [DS] Trinisphere
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [GP] Repeal
SB: 2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation

For sure the numbers could be shifted arround a bit based on testing, but this would be my starting point. E.g. if 18 blue spells are not enough add another 1-2 Fact / Research / Magre.

After some more thoughts Thopter combo is exactly what the deck needs in my opinion. It is the card which enables FoW in the first place (bringing the blue count up), it stabilizes your life and the tokens can protect Tezzeret.

Seat is no longer needed, which makes you stronger against Wasteland and the slight splash of either black or white is not a problem. What splash would be better SB wise?

EDIT: On second thought about Seat, it pitches to Thirst, can be tutored by Trinket and untapped by Tezz. Does this warrant its inclusion? In each case i wouldnt go down below 6 islands. But the above configuration with -1 Tundra (Mox still gives off coloured mana) and -1 Island +2 Seat will be considered.

[Skeggi]

Is Ensnaring Bridge good enough? Or would you prefer Propaganda? I suppose Propaganda + Tanglewire have some synergy. I would make a list like this:

1 Academy Ruins
9 Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod

4 Trinket Mage
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Propaganda
3 Mox Diamond
1 Chrome Mox
2 Mulldrifter
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Thopter Foundry
4 Force of Will
3 Sword of the Meek

Sideboard:
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle

[deadlock]

Bridge protects Tezzeret, else i wouldnt play it. In a list like yours with only two Tezz its okay to play Propaganda. Still consider one Bridge as a tutor target. If you cast him with pressure on the board, you want to have some way to save him from beats.

While body + nice effect is good in Faery Stompy, i dont think its that good here, your opponent will throw his otherwise dead removal at them regardless.
I see the point of Trinket Mage, but why Mulldrifter?

About Chalice and Mage explictly, while i see the huge power of COTV, with the Foundry combo in the picture, its not as strong as it is in something like Armageddon Stax. Also i wouldnt play additional targets like EE or Sigil of Distinction. Together with the fact that it would be the only creature, i doubt is the right path. A resolved Fact on the other hand let you explode in your next turn, if you dont count on tutor abilitys you can afford to have some pieces discarded to the yard. Also you need some ca, with FoW and Mox in the deck.

Also i would play at least two Academy Ruins, better three - it gives you inevitability.

EDIT: Edited the above list.
-Reduce the number of Tezzeret, 5 mana is still heavy, even for this deck.

-On second thought i agree with Skeggi about Trinket Mage, i also added Sigil - to turn an unaswered Trinket Mage into a threat.

-Propaganda is definitly needed - atleast in the board. Also its blue, which gives me greater sb flexibilty (only 20 blue spells in the main).

-Experimenting with some more cards in the board, also cut the two Fact - there did nothing often and have a negative synergy with Bridge. I am trying the 4th Mage and 1 EE maindeck for know. Adding more anti control / lategame cards is never the problem.

-What do you think of a single Meekstone either main or side?

[Hitman82]

This deck just looks like a pile of inefficiency. You're playing Metalworker but not Staff of Domination. In a format full of creature removal, you may want to get more out of Metalworker than one-shots of mana. Your main gameplan is to resolve a five casting cost card in order to tutor up cheaper artifacts.

You've got all these cool effects and no way to abuse them. If you're going to play Painter, why not play Red Blasts? If you're playing Thirst for Knowledge, why not play Goblin Welder? What is Trinisphere and Force of Will doing in the same deck? Mox Diamond sucks. I can't think of any deck I would want to play that in. Chrome Mox is strictly better. A mana intensive deck can't sacrifice land drops in the hope that a Mox will accelerate your mana development fast enough. Why are there no Transmute Artifacts in your artifact combo deck?

If I were to play this kind of deck, I would change it to this:

4 Metalworker
3 Staff of Domination
4 Painter's Servant
1 Grindstone
4 Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
2 Transmute Artifact
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
4 Brainstorm
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Goblin Welder
4 Force of Will
3 Chrome Mox

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarns
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins

You're a little short on blue cards for Force of Will but you have Painter's Servant to make any card blue. This deck is largely the same concept but much more efficient. It has the added bonus of playing one mana instant speed "Vindicates/Counterspell".

[deadlock]

This deck just looks like a pile of inefficiency. You're playing Metalworker but not Staff of Domination.

Which list are you refering to? Anyway i consider your post as a bad troll attempt..

Some constructive things:
-Tested against Merfolk, the power of COTV and Trini depends on if you draw or play. Try to stop LOA - its their biggest threat, because it negates the Thopter combo.
-Tested against Dreadstill and managed to kill-block a Nought with Thopter tokens.
-Not sure if i should play additional Bridges in the board, currently i rather bring in the Propagandas to slow the beats, independent on your hand / your opponents creature size.

EDIT: I am currently testing one Ironfoot in the maindeck. The reasoning behind is, that sometimes the best thing you can do with a fresh Tezzeret, is to search for some beef. Ironfoot is the best creature i found, having toughness 4 is especially important. Also its another creature which can carry a Sword or Sigil. With enough mana, his drawback can be turned into an advantage, by acting like a Vigilance creature.

[nodahero]

I think I may have taken something for granted... This deck is not meant to be a solution to every meta game. Staxx lists are meant to prey on more Thresh style lists as opposed to Folk lists typically.

Cards like Mox Diamond have their place in Staxx lists because they provide the highest probability of consistency which allows us to beat the lower critter count lists such as Thresh. In a deck with roughly 18 blue cards and 23 lands clearly Mox Diamond is the more consistent card in comparison to Chrome Mox (Not to mention you can get back the card you pitch to Diamond but that isn't possible for Chrome).

[SpencerForHire]

Anyway i consider your post as a bad troll attempt..

If you cannot take criticism seriously, how can we take this deck seriously. Hitman82 listed off all the ways this deck clashes with itself as well as many of the things that could fix it...



I am currently testing one Ironfoot in the maindeck. The reasoning behind is, that sometimes the best thing you can do with a fresh Tezzeret, is to search for some beef. Ironfoot is the best creature i found, having toughness 4 is especially important. Also its another creature which can carry a Sword or Sigil. With enough mana, his drawback can be turned into an advantage, by acting like a Vigilance creature.


I'm moderately concerned in a deck with 20-11 different kills that your solution for certain 'situations' is another kill method. In my opinion the biggest two weaknesses of this deck are a lack of focus on kill conditions coupled with a lack of focus on disruption package.

Quite simply you really are trying to do everything in a deck that would be better off only doing one or two things; if you want to play stax, put in more prison lock pieces, if you want to play control, put in more control pieces. Half and half only works in coffee.



I think I may have taken something for granted... This deck is not meant to be a solution to every meta game. Staxx lists are meant to prey on more Thresh style lists as opposed to Folk lists typically.

What exactly does this deck have on the only "Threshold" deck left in the environment: Canadian Thresh. I'd be pleased to be wrong but I have hard time believe Canadian Thresh is anything better then a struggle the entire way. This deck is most susceptible when it comes to slowing it down long enough to beat it down (hit the mana win the game). On top of this fact, CT runs Stifles and hard counters with a reasonable clock. I don't really feel like CT has the most unfavorable of matchups.

That being said I feel I have to make the disclaimer that 3sphere and Chalice are good against Threshold. To be fair, any deck running 3sphere and Chalice are going to have similar advantages against Thresh and this one doesn't feel like it has anything special to offer in that regard.

I like the concept of a Stax deck with a combo kill especially engineered with Tezzeret involved. I just do not see this deck in it's current incarnation cutting it.

[FieryBalrog]

Mox Diamond sucks. I can't think of any deck I would want to play that in.

Oh I don't know, Loam decks, maybe? :rolleyes: Geddon Stax? Any deck that runs land recursion and needs acceleration? I hear its pretty good with Armageddon and Devastating Dreams, too. Just an idea.



Chrome Mox is strictly better.

Not even close. Chrome Mox is only good in combo. No one else even bothers, except Dragon Stompy. Why the hell would you run Chrome Mox in a deck that has a high percentage of artifacts is beyond me, too.

Apart from that I would agree.

[deadlock]

Originally Posted by deadlock View Post
Anyway i consider your post as a bad troll attempt..
If you cannot take criticism seriously, how can we take this deck seriously. Hitman82 listed off all the ways this deck clashes with itself as well as many of the things that could fix it...

Okay, i thought why this post cant be taken serious, seems like this is not the case. So here it comes.

I ignore the part about Metalworker, i played him - but had to realize that he does virtually nothing outside the combo with Staff. He is best if you can cast him first turn and get an undisrupted activation on the second turn. As this isnt consistently possible without something like Grim Monolith, he loses a lot of power. While its still possible to put him in a shell with 8 two-mana lands and 8 additional effects (Spirit Guide + Mox) to power him out early, its not like a first turn Blood Moon or Trinisphere on the play (also it would be a completly different deck).
So usual when he comes down turn 2-3 earliest, he just sits there and you will hopefully be able to put his ability to good use the next turn, if he doesnt get removed. Another problem is that you need at least 3 artifacts in hand when you want to go off with Staff.
Both pieces can be somewhat used outside the combo, but are not that powerful on their own in most cases - Workers problems are said and staff needs lots of mana.

I wont talk about Painter, as i dont play him - the bottomline is that both combos involve an artifact creature, which is very easy to remove.
If you want i can write down why i think that the Thopter combo is so strong.

Now to some direct criticism:
FoW and Trini in the same deck, is as bad as CB / Goyf with Deed / EE in one deck - not bad at all. FoW has the following functions here:
- It protects you in the early game / on the draw against fast threats, which cant be handled by your spells that easly. Like LoA, Pridemage, Trygon Predator or a fast Nought. Trini on the other hand is strongest on the play (i side it out on the draw quite often - if i dont play against tempo decks which try to abuse cheap / free spells heavily).
Trini is there to buy you time, like most cards, there not there to shut down the opponent completly, while being nice, you cant count on that. You dont need to stabilize the game indefinitly like other control decks. (Thats because of the combo obv.)
So lets take a look when Trini and FoW is "bad".
- Trini is down and stuck.
- Fow still in hand or drawn afterwards.
- Opponent casts a critical threat.
- No three mana available.

Thats quite a lot of conditions imo. My maindeck has currently 4 FoW main and 2 Trinis + 2 Trini in the board. If you are that concerned about the dissynergy use this rule of thumb: side out FoWs on the play and bring in Trinis, on the draw side out Trinis and keep the FoWs.

Next point Thirst without Welder. While Welder and Thirst have a nice synergy, this is not a Welder deck - the biggest reason for this is that he is red and costs one mana. Chalice is one of the best spells in this deck, even if set to one only in most cases. The deck is build on redundancy with a few singletons as tutor targets.
These redudant can easily be pitched after you stick the first one via Thirst. I am a huge fan of Fact, but the one mana difference is huge, also Fact can be bad with Bridge in play. I still havnt dismissed it, because we need a little help against other control decks - therefore the two Jace in the board.
Even if you have to discard two cards to Thirst, it increases the consistency of the deck, which is still one of the biggest problems it has.

Mox Diamond was adressed by the other people, for me the biggest points against Chrome Mox are that it would produce blue only , which is bad with Thopter Foundry in the picture and the blue count is far to low to use is reliable.

Transmute artifact is too narrow, its cheaper than Tezzeret, but produces card disadvantage and cant tutor for multiple pieces. If the deck would focus completly on the combo if would consider Fabricate first i think.

Now some comments on the list he posted. Besides that it is a completly different deck / concept is see the following problems:
- 2 two-mana combos in one deck is not good, this was expressed enough throughout the thread. Especially these two inferior combos (Painter/stone is good, dont misunderstand me, i just think that in a big mana deck like this Thopter is far superior for numerous reasons.
-Painter + Red Blast can count as another combo which is dead on their own in lots of matchups. In a deck like Autumn Painter i can see that this works, but not here.
-15 Blue cards with Fow is just too low, Painter doesnt change this.
-Welder doesnt get abused to is fullest extend, by putting fat artifacts into play. If you want to play Welder consider SDT.
-Now maybe the biggest problem, only 4 FoWs as real protection spells.

I dont want to sound like an enraged monkey, but if you post in thread it should either be constructive criticism or a well defendend list. Just saying that it is bad doesnt help at all, posting a list which just dies doesnt make it better.
If somebody want to test and prove me wrong in certain inclusions, feel free to drop a note / pm me.

[SpencerForHire]

So lets take a look when Trini and FoW is "bad".
- Trini is down and stuck.
- Fow still in hand or drawn afterwards.
- Opponent casts a critical threat.
- No three mana available.

Thats quite a lot of conditions imo. My maindeck has currently 4 FoW main and 2 Trinis + 2 Trini in the board. If you are that concerned about the dissynergy use this rule of thumb: side out FoWs on the play and bring in Trinis, on the draw side out Trinis and keep the FoWs.

This is not true in the slightest. Number one, you are assuming 3sphere has been played. Well last I checked, when considering how cards synergize in a deck, you don't consider how one synergizes with the other being in your hand. With this being the case, we are only talking about 3sphere interacting with FoW in play.

Next, once again, we assume you have FoW in your hand, you cannot discount cases when you have a card in your hand, over all the games you play you will have any combination of cards in your hand. You cannot discount the idea of "why would I ever have FoW in my hand with 3sphere in play?"

Opponent casts a critical threat. Really? The only reason you play both 3sphere and FoW is to stop things you care about, aka: critical threats.

Last but in no way the least? What is the likely hood my opponent would want to try and resolve a 'critical threat' while disrupting my mana at the same time in this format? Welcome to Legacy where manabases are weak and players count on that.

For those that don't wish to read all of that. The only reason we run disruption (FoW and 3sphere) in a combo deck is to stop players from casting spells you don't like to see. In the mean time, those players are likely messing with your mana. So this scenario is exactly why you don't want to run both and is exactly why this is not some out of the box scenario.


I dont want to sound like an enraged monkey, but if you post in thread it should either be constructive criticism or a well defendend list. Just saying that it is bad doesnt help at all, posting a list which just dies doesnt make it better.
If somebody want to test and prove me wrong in certain inclusions, feel free to drop a note / pm me.
Whether or not the list he posted was even one bit relevant, he told you straight up exactly why he didn't like XYZ in the deck and was disregarded as a troll. Essentially, you did to him exactly what you are arguing is unacceptable now.

So I contend we should be more scholarly and take the advice others give us and consider it. Maybe some of it is valid and some of it isn't. However, the arguments we make to and for a decklist should be well thought out and have meaningful data to back up our reasoning behind any decision.

That being said, my concern is still the lack of a focused game plan I have mentioned before, none of which was actually addressed to an extent in which I would be content with your response.

The best piece of information I heard was "if you like it don't run XYZ card choice" which is a valid statement. However, when we are talking about the community discussing a list, we must also consider that we have to take criticisms and not just say "Well the community is incorrect and I am infallible, if they don't like it they don't have to run it, I'm not considering changing a thing." That just doesn't lead to conducive advancements in deck design which is the whole reason I would assume your deck is posted publicly.

[deadlock]

Okay - i dont want to argue - i just want to imrpove the deck..
For Trini with FoW, just keep the example with Deed and e.g. CB in mind - to be bad you have to have in a certain position, which is imo not that likely - therefore they dont interfere that much.
If you disagree than just dont play them together - its fine.

As said i want to improve the deck, you and others can keep flaming, but imo the concept has potencial, so i will try to improve it.
With this in mind and cutting away the rest, your biggest issue with the deck seems to be that the gameplan is not focused.
So maybe you have some ideas if i put down the gameplan for you?
-Sooner or later you want to resolve the combo, while being central to the deck both as a offensive and deffensive measure, it should not degenerate to a 'one-trick-pony'.
Tezzeret and equipped Mage beats offer alternatives if needed.

So the core is the combo + Tezzeret to find it. Both work good in a deck with lots mana (while a version more like Muc would be quite interesting!!!).
For that reason Chalice and other artifacts are played.
Skeggi brought up Trinket Mage, he finds Chalice and can block - while being a creature its not that bad if he gets removed, because he already has served his main purpose (getting Chalice or sometimes EE).
I could go on, but i just dont see the point - you just want to control the game long enough for the combo to win - i dont think thats unfocused isnt it?

[SpencerForHire]

Your kill plan is more focused than other lists posted but I would agree (to what Hitman said) about your engine being very expensive for this format. It really feels like you are going for a pseudo Landstill style control until your "big finish" occurs. While there is nothing wrong with this you seem to play alot of cards that favor a quicker game as opposed to going for the long run.

Also please do not confuse being critical with flaming (it is irritating to say the least to have my opinions being discounted as such). I think the most important thing to discuss in this deck currently is the disruption package. It seems the most game breaking (whether that is a win or a loss).

First, I already tried to caution you against the cop-out of "just don't run it" but I will reiterate: although in the end it is up to the pilots choice to ultimately decide what is important to them in their deck. Is is the duty of any discussing it to try and pick out every flaw to ensure the deck is running to it's maximum potential. Why is 3sphere+FoW so strong in your eyes? What situations is Trinisphere better than Arcane Laboratory. Essentially all you are doing for you and your opponent is slowing it to a spell per turn. Arcane Lab does it without preventing your Force of Wills from shutting off. These are the kinds of questions you need to ask yourself...

Second, you are openly telling me you wish to improve the deck (quite profusely) but are very defensive on your card decisions to the point where it seems hard to directly offer a suggestion on even a one card change let alone a whole card decision. I would caution you on this because we must realize that we are never our best critics on our creations. Is it possible multiple people "flaming" you is others trying to tell you they see glaring errors that need to be rectified and is just the community moving to help you? I have skimmed the thread as a whole and have found no posts that do not give reasoning for their opinions.

All this being said, you may want to consider either going for a Stax plan or Counter plan and not sitting on the fence in between.

Propaganda regardless seems a much stronger option than Ensnaring Bridge due to the fact that you are running some significant Card Advantage tools and you are likely going to be letting plenty of creatures swing into you due to this even when Bridge is in play.

The Control route also seems weaker than the Stax route due to most of the good Counterspells requiring you to either not tap out or put yourself behind on the Land count which is quite counter-intuitive to your general plan.

Removing FoW would also provide room for things like Tutors or other ways to ensure your deck is consistent.

[nodahero]

I ran this list today to a tragic 2-1-1 record...

// Lands
4 [DCI] Wasteland
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [MR] Seat of the Synod
1 [b] Tundra
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
6 [CS] Snow-Covered Island

// Spells
3 [ALA] Tezzeret the Seeker
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
2 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
4 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [US] Smokestack
4 [TMP] Propaganda
4 [AL] Force of Will

Overall I think the biggest problem with this deck from my limited testing is a lack of reactive solutions to resolved threats such as Goyf or Nought short of Ensnaring Bridge (which was clutch all day).

Currently I believe a stock Armageddon staxx with the Sword combo thrown in is alot more powerful comparatively speaking because they can tax the opponent better than we could hope to. They have Armageddon and Magus of the Tabernacle where as we lack that but we do gain Tez which allows us to combo faster as well as having a little counter power.

I was also placed into many situations today with 3Sphere on board and FoW in hand... While it was MILDLY annoying it was still really strong still. I may be paying 3 for my "free" force but so is that chump across from me who just paid 3 for some other random threat.

[SpencerForHire]

What matchups did you face? What did you lose/win against? What matchups did you find yourself having to Force with Trinisphere out? Would Trinisphere have been better as a tutor or secondary counter in each of these scenarios (given that you had 3 mana open when you were able to FoW)?

I will point out right away that you are running more permanent lock pieces than any other deck listed thus far (the first one I've noticed running Smokestack). Do you feel this had any positive/negative affect on your results?


I was also placed into many situations today with 3Sphere on board and FoW in hand... While it was MILDLY annoying it was still really strong still. I may be paying 3 for my "free" force but so is that chump across from me who just paid 3 for some other random threat.
The difference is that your opponent was paying 3 for something that already cost 1 or 2. You are paying 3 for something that previously cost zero. In terms of raw numbers and resources, Trinisphere is costing you more each interaction than an opponent whenever you Force. Who is it really slowing down more?

It is also slightly disconcerting that you had 3 idle mana. In these situations were you in topdeck mode? Were you just waiting to get there? Despite your good intentions there is surprisingly little real information in the results you have posted.

[nodahero]

*Note to self learn how to quote people for simplicity*

In no particular order I played against Merfolk, the Cataclysm deck (forgot its name), Alluren (with a very compitent piolt), and a Thresh-ish deck.

The loss and the draw (to Alluern and the Cataclysm deck respectively) were both due to my inability to solve creatures proactively. All to often they had plenty of mana to get there with Goyf or Angel regardles of my Propaganda in play. Had I been fortunate to have Sword/Foundry it would have been differnt but alas I did not see them. The 2 matches I won were primarily due to either Ensnaring Bridge or Smokestack actually. Both of them allow us to break the symmetry of them fairly well.

I think you misunderstood me in regards to the FoW/3sphere interaction. I was arguing that either they spent 3 mana from some dork and you spent an 2 cards and 3 mana (that you clearly hadn't used) or they paid 6 mana for their dork and card parity was maintained while liking ensuring your opportunity to cast whatever on your turn. The 3 mana was rarely pertinent since we run 8 lands that produce 2 mana anyway. This may be a poor example since that 3 mana you had open on their turn MAY have been used on their depending on what you would have run in FoW's slot.

[SpencerForHire]

So the losses were due to not being able to combo in time. Without too much information being given I would assume that in the situations where 3sphere/FoW combo was good it was a win more. Outside of this win more situation it sounds like it would have been better off with FoW being a tutor for the combo.

The games won were won because you were able to perform like a generic stax deck. I will say I am happy to hear Bridge worked. I personally still prefer Propaganda but if your card count in hand was low enough that Ensnaring Bridge kept problems at bay then that's just fine.

If you have such an overabundance of mana at any point in the game that you can afford to throw around 3 extra mana and two cards (one being a misc blue card and the other being FoW) I would assert that you have resources more or less being wasted because you are unable to make use of that mana. In this same situation I would then say you would have benefit many of these games from FoW being a more business spell...

If your opponent had 6 mana available, you had FoW available and still have not won, I once again would assert the need for more business spells.


So far every piece of information put forth by every poster has made me believe that Force of Will is the card to cut and either another lock piece or more business spells in the form of search, draw, or something of that matter should be added.

[nodahero]

I do not diagree. What I am trying to explain is that even when the scenario involving FoW and 3Sphere occurs it is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Don't forget either that this deck is very slow and methodical. It is not out of the realm of possible for your opponents to reach 6 mana at all. Against merfolk they got up to 8 or 9 before I killed them.

Just because someone has X mana dosn't mean anything. Flashback to the golden era of vintage Staxx that deck could easily assemble the same locks as us but still wait turn upon turn to kill because they merely had nothing to because they had the game locked up. For example if for some reason you cant kill an opponent and they have as many permanents as we do... I was capable of winning by ramping Smokestack up to 2 counters and using foundry to feed.

I think before we start ripping out cards we need to consider the weakpoints in the deck. As I stated earlier I think some form of reactive solution would be amazing. Utilitywize I think Repeal may be a solid option because it can get rid of nearly anything given a reasonable time frame and replaces itself maintaing card quanitity. It should be noted that I think upping the threat density may be important also though so possibly a 3/2 split. I hate the feeling of dieing to one card such as Needle...

[deadlock]

So far every piece of information put forth by every poster has made me believe that Force of Will is the card to cut and either another lock piece or more business spells in the form of search, draw, or something of that matter should be added.

The problem with cutting FoW is that you need it to counter stuff that kills you.
Examples:
- A Disk from Landstill (can be any sweeper which affects multiple permanents on your side).
- Stabilized with Thopter/Sword, but the Merfolk player casts a LOA with a couple of Se(a)men on the board. Same applies to the Zoo and Pridemage.



Had I been fortunate to have Sword/Foundry it would have been differnt but alas I did not see them. The 2 matches I won were primarily due to either Ensnaring Bridge or Smokestack actually. Both of them allow us to break the symmetry of them fairly well.

Agree here, on Thopter and Bridge, but i am not sure about Smokestack.
It has synergy with Thopter/Sword, but if you have these you should have won anyway in most cases. I would really like to have more possibilties to remove permanents, currently i run only 1 EE and 4 Mage to do so.
As i states earlier, i think that Smokestack doesnt fit in (as well?) as it fits into Armageddon Stax. Its slow and expensive, unlike A-Stax, Tezzeret should focus on make your opponents permanents irrelevant. As said this is done by the combo and Bridge, which could lead to the conclusion to run more of these (Bridge in my case) or ways to find them :eyebrow:

Sidenote, what do you think about Oblivion Ring from the board? It sux if it gets removed and its not blue, but it can remove everything.

EDIT: About Trinisphere, i can see going down to 1 Trini in the main and 3 in the board. I wouldnt cut the last one, because its a good (the best?) tutor target for Tezzeret against storm combo in g1. One could argue that one wont live long enough to cast Tezz, but keep in mind that FoW + Chalice slows them too.

[nodahero]

I think we need to mellow out on the individual card counts in the lists because like every deck, Staxx is a meta deck and thus certain card choices are meta specific. I doubt everyone on here has the wackd out meta that I live in.

In my meta decks like Burn, Storm, and Weenie decks are not remotely rare and slowing them down to one card per turn can be key.

[SpencerForHire]

I'll tell you right now what I see:

nodahero is leaning more and more towards a Stax shell. He often has excess mana and plays like a Stax deck locking opponents down.

deadlock is leaning more towards a control deck, cutting Trinispheres (finally) for the most part as he is realizing how not useful they are in his list. I also support this observation by your stance on Smokestack.

I am not saying either of these is the correct solution but I would suggest the following. If each of you moved to one side of the fence, this deck could split into two decks, both running the same end game but with a slightly different means of getting there. You would no longer be as non-synergistic as I have previously advocated and you would likely find yourself winning games you have previously lost.


Now to the stuff you all like to label as flaming. ;)


Agree here, on Thopter and Bridge, but i am not sure about Smokestack.
It has synergy with Thopter/Sword, but if you have these you should have won anyway in most cases. I would really like to have more possibilties to remove permanents, currently i run only 1 EE and 4 Mage to do so.
As i states earlier, i think that Smokestack doesnt fit in (as well?) as it fits into Armageddon Stax. Its slow and expensive, unlike A-Stax, Tezzeret should focus on make your opponents permanents irrelevant. As said this is done by the combo and Bridge, which could lead to the conclusion to run more of these (Bridge in my case) or ways to find them

The reason you are finding your deck not performing like A-stax is because you are running a watered down Stax frame to support Force of Will and a more diverse set of cards. Short and simple, your lack of focus on a game plan is what is preventing the Stax game plan from being effective.


The problem with cutting FoW is that you need it to counter stuff that kills you.
Examples:
- A Disk from Landstill (can be any sweeper which affects multiple permanents on your side).
- Stabilized with Thopter/Sword, but the Merfolk player casts a LOA with a couple of Se(a)men on the board. Same applies to the Zoo and Pridemage.

Once again your own lack of focus is hurting you. If you were running a full Stax plan then your goal would be to lock your opponent out of the game until you could Thopter/Sword them out of it forever. If at any point your argument for this is that they are able to resolve threats through your Stax plan then either your Stax plan is not focused enough and you need to strengthen it (either by accelerants or more pieces) or you need to drop it for a control plan.

I'm not sure how to say this without striking a nerve so just keep in mind I mean this in the most courteous way possible... You cannot just run all the cards you deem the strongest and assume it is going to have positive results. If I threw Dark Ritual in a Counter Top deck (black splashed one of course) and said it was to get stronger first turn plays because Dark Ritual is good you would give me the ridicule I am giving you about the 3sphere/FoW combination. Some cards are just bad together, it happens.

Some cards do not play nicely and some cards do not fit in every deck. Just because you are running blue does not mean FoW is mandatory: there are plenty of other ways to stop your opponent from moving their own plan forward. Stax is a fine example of an alternative disruption plan to countermagic.

[Hitman82]

Cut one or two Chrome Moxes. Four is too many. If you do use them to actually produce mana and not simply weld, you're losing too much card advantage.

I hate artifact lands, they unnecessarily open you up to certain pieces of disruption you don't want your manabase to be weak to. Imagine a deck that runs Wasteland and artifact destruction.

I think three big robots is too many. You aren't going to want that many dead cards in your deck. Outside of Goblin Welder, they're largely useless.

While Intuition is fine, I think Transmute Artifact is better in your list. You want to keep four Red Blasts in because you'll probably want to see two every game. The interaction with Painter's Servant gives your deck depth.

I included the Metalworker combo because you had it in your list, not because it was ideal. I think you need another form of pressure in that slot if/when you replace it. Drawing cards doesn't translate to pressure. You need real business spells in that slot, cards that directly win you the game. Otherwise, your other win conditions will be too open to disruption. You want to keep applying pressure with this deck. Draw spells are there to refill your hand once you're out of threats.

Lastly, I wouldn't cut Tezzeret altogether, especially if you run Tangle Wire. He turns all your artifacts into 5/5s. With the high concentration of artifacts in this deck, he's an endgame win condition. You want a card like that in the deck for when everything else fails. Tezzeret is your swiss-army knife gamebreaker.

Hope this helps.

[SpencerForHire]

I was thinking about the fact that Transmute Artifact was addressed at giving card disadvantage and hence not worth it. I would like to liken it now to the same kind of "disadvantage" that Mystical tutor provides: at the cost of -1 net card you gain (right now) a card that is directly relevant to your winning the game. Just food for thought.

[mossivo1986]

i playtested some games with the welder model and althougjh it doesn't get the crazy combo draws where u can go any direction youd like, it also doest stall or run out of time like the older model. with welder in as a psuedo answer with inkwell leviathon the deck is deffinately changing direction and ganing a much more consistent shell.

[mossivo1986]

So here is an update on the testing that i've done along with the information provided from Hitman and others. I have really enjoyed this list as it plays a much more linear roll then previous lists.

Land:22
4 u/r fetch
1 flooded strand
1 polluted delta
4 tomb
2 city of traitors
4 volcanic island
4 island
1 mountain
1 Academy Ruins

(Need Academy Ruins?)

Mana Acceleration:4
4 mox diamond, Chrome mox (Haven't decided, Hitman says chrome, but diamond has proven to be substancially better in the limited testing i've done.)

Permission: 10
4 force of will
3 tanglewire
1 pyroblast
2 Red elemental Blast

Draw:10
4 thirst
4 brainstorm
2 intuition

Win conditions: 9
4 painters servent
2 grind stone
3 inkwell leviathon

Utility:5
4 Goblin Welder
1 Tezzeret

Sideboard:
1 tormod's
2 Relic
3 propaganda
2 grindstone (to combat combo's speed?)
1 pyroblast
x # (blue, hydro?)
2 crucible of worlds (along with academy creates a nice engine for intuition)


I really like this list and would like some input on what others have. I definately haven't posted in here in a long time and hope that we can continue to move this deck further and further down this twisted road.

[mossivo1986]

So Ive been doing some testing today and it seems that there is no midgame with the deck. I've been trying to give it one, but it's relying heavily on win conditions and lacks a real good backbone to turn a bad board position around on. Often times im losing by a hair. Pheonix ignition has mentioned esperzoa. I think theres a possibility, but it is an artifact and I can see the strength and weakness of the card. Thoughts?

[SpencerForHire]

So Ive been doing some testing today and it seems that there is no midgame with the deck. I've been trying to give it one, but it's relying heavily on win conditions and lacks a real good backbone to turn a bad board position around on. Often times im losing by a hair. Pheonix ignition has mentioned esperzoa. I think theres a possibility, but it is an artifact and I can see the strength and weakness of the card. Thoughts?

If you are facing an issue with the fluidity of the deck from transition to one part of the game to the other I think the last thing you would wish to do is introduce more cards that do not focus on the overarching goal of the deck.

That being said, you seem like you are in a position where tuning will do everything you wish to do. If your midgame is lacking, either find a way to speed your gameplan to be a turn ahead at all times of where the deck performs now, or, find a way to add more redundant control to the deck.

Personally I would wager:

-1 Inkwell Leviathan
+1 Pyroblast

-3 Tanglewire
+3 Propaganda / Powder Keg

would put you right where you need to be against the aggro matchup. Your Tanglewire looks like it really neither has corresponding pieces to apply the pressure you would like nor does the deck seem like it plays around that card well enough to warrant it.