[DECK] 43 What?

[Meister_Kai]

So Ben Lukas has won Vestal, Chris Woltereck has placed 7th, then 2nd in various Starcity 5k's. In fact, it seems that this deck has been doing a pretty good job of placing highly in most highly publicized tournaments (at least the one's I've seen).

The question is; why don't I see more discussion about this deck? Everyone seems to be worried about decks like ThreshThreshThreshThresh and Dredge etc, but never do I see people worried about sideboarding that hot tech against Lands. Is it because the only time it places high is because it dodges its bad match-ups? Is it because the deck is pretty expensive to build with low EV (as illustrated by a starcity article)? Perhaps people just don't like to play it?

It seems to me that the deck, when played, always posts pretty consistent results, but to my knowledge has never been a DTB or DTW (I could very well be wrong).

Maybe i'm missing something, but why aren't more people playing this deck?

[Eldariel]

The deck has a miniscule number of players. While it can do well, the chances of facing it in the first place just aren't relevantly large while the chances of facing Zoo/Countertop/Tempo Thresh/Merfolk in any given tournament are extremely high and as such, your chances of victory against the more common decks are more relevant than your wins against a deck that might not even be present.

Preparing for a match-up you aren't like to face is a waste of time. Legacy has about 6000000 Tier 2 decks with the potential to win any tournament they're played in, but it's most likely that there's 1-2 copies that scrub out or 0 copies. You can't prepare for all of them and even if you could, it wouldn't be worth the effort.


Besides, it's obvious what are the best hate-cards vs Lands: Try any mass nonbasic hate (Price of Progress, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, etc.) and any graveyard hate. That's another reason there's no need to talk about it; it's all too obvious (other than for decks that need to counter hatecards from Lands, like Zoo dealing with Glacial Chasm/Zuran Orb).

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Also, because the hate against lands is so crippling. A single PoP can kill the deck and Bloodmoon shuts the deck out as well.

[Otter]

Its list usually involves a couple of Tabernacle. I don't think many people really want to shell out three hundred dollars on the things when they don't see play anywhere else (other than occasionally 'Geddon Stax boarding a copy or two). If they were a bit cheaper, I think the deck would have a few more players behind it.

[Parcher]

I don't think many people really want to shell out three hundred dollars on the things when they don't see play anywhere else


The deck has a miniscule number of players. While it can do well, the chances of facing it in the first place just aren't relevantly large while the chances of facing Zoo/Countertop/Tempo Thresh/Merfolk in any given tournament are extremely high and as such, your chances of victory against the more common decks are more relevant than your wins against a deck that might not even be present.

Preparing for a match-up you aren't like to face is a waste of time. Legacy has about 6000000 Tier 2 decks with the potential to win any tournament they're played in, but it's most likely that there's 1-2 copies that scrub out or 0 copies. You can't prepare for all of them and even if you could, it wouldn't be worth the effort.


Besides, it's obvious what are the best hate-cards vs Lands: Try any mass nonbasic hate (Price of Progress, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, etc.) and any graveyard hate. That's another reason there's no need to talk about it; it's all too obvious (other than for decks that need to counter hatecards from Lands, like Zoo dealing with Glacial Chasm/Zuran Orb).

Two answers sum everything up. Especially the part about Hate cards. Basically like Ichorid, they are plentiful, in a various colors, and generally pretty relevant. Unlike Ichorid, there's no point in SB'ing cards for an at most 1:20 chance of a match-up.

[ForceofWill]

shhhh don't get people sbing against me.

What's been said in the thread pretty much sums up your questions.

Also sadly I got 2nd not at Vestal.

[DownSyndromeKarl]

i used to play the deck, but received an offer on my Tabernacles that surpassed what I payed for them, and i was getting bored with the deck.

Personally, getting Loam Extirpated on turn two is a killer too. Eff that crap. I did love the reaction, no one ever said "Oh, you're playing 43 land? ok" it was always "aw fuck, 43 land? let's go to game two"

[dahcmai]

That was my reason for stopping playing was the fact Extirpate exists. Some decks play it and it's crippling and there's hardly a damned thing you can do about it, especially when you are playing against a black deck more than likely packing some discard to control when your loam is in the yard.

After the wishes got some errata to clarify the whole exiled thing, getting Extirpated was even worse since you couldn't burning wish one back. You had to play with one in the board and that was that.

POP was easily fixed by Aegis of Honor at least. I loved that card in my board. Ray of Revelation was nice to help out against Blood Moon and Back to Basics, but Extirpate was just bad.

Convinced me to switch to Landstill for a long time.

Probably doesn't help that Explorations, Tabernacles, Maze of Iths, Rishadan Ports, Wastelands, and the like aren't super cheapy cards like a Merfolk or Dredge deck.

[MMogg]

But compared to the price of other cards, Tabernacle is not that outrageous. There's another thread around here where we are currently bemoaning Tarmos at $60! I'd much rather fork out money for Tabernacles than Tarmos. They most likely will never depreciate. Of course, if you invest in Tabernacles rather than Tarmos you are pigeon holed into one deck type whereas Tarmos are played in nearly every GD deck in Legacy.

[frogboy]

Couldn't you just Chalice at one to avoid getting extirpated?

[Otter]

But compared to the price of other cards, Tabernacle is not that outrageous. There's another thread around here where we are currently bemoaning Tarmos at $60! I'd much rather fork out money for Tabernacles than Tarmos. They most likely will never depreciate. Of course, if you invest in Tabernacles rather than Tarmos you are pigeon holed into one deck type whereas Tarmos are played in nearly every GD deck in Legacy.

Though I think you're overpricing Tarmo, your second point is the most relevant. Two or three Tabernacles is not too much to ask for paying for a legacy deck, but compared to like Underground Sea, they don't pull a lot of weight in your collection for deck diversity.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I used to play this for quite a while and got tired of losing to grave hate. So I switched over to Eternal Garden which (at least to me) is superior to 43land in every possible way. Crucible of Worlds is exactly what the deck needed and you ravage the fuck out of most of the format. BUT, here are the problems:

I have taken 18 damage from a single Price of Progress

I have lost numerous games due to Moon Effects

Any form of storm combo is an auto-loss

Much like Landstill this deck is slow as hell and has no clock

Aside from that though, Eternal Garden (32land.dec) ravages the fuck out of nearly anything else. Dredge is just a bye matchup, Zoo is almost a joke, I have never lost a single game to Goblins in tournament play (and I used to play it alot), and you have a disgustingly positive Thresh matchup. I have to agree that more people should play this deck, but, the price of admission is quite steep. The other problem is that Eternal Garden is easily one of the 3 hardest decks to play correctly in the format. Now don't just assume you play lands and win or mulligan into Exploration, it is hella more complicated than that. You have a TON of skill testing cards like: Crop Rotation, Burning Wish, fetches (no joke, just like storm if you fetch the wrong lands you can lose), Intuition, Loam engines, etc. With a deck like this you really have to be thinking WAY in advance rather than the here and now to be any kind of successful with it. Overall it is a lot of fun to play but it is expensive, difficult to pilot correctly, and just really slow.

[leander?]

PF, what kind of list do you have in mind when you're talking about eternal garden?

[Mr.C]

PF, what kind of list do you have in mind when you're talking about eternal garden?

I'm curious too. Sounds like something fun to play locally.

[sco0ter]

Just have a look at the Eternal Garden thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3668). Pulp Fiction posted his ideas and lists several times afaik.

[Meister_Kai]

So half of the top 8 in the latest Starcity thing were either 43land or a variant. Did they just dodge all the hate or is everybody exaggerating about how hard it folds to said hate?

[leander?]

Aggro Loam is a variant of 43Land?

[LostButSeeking]

So half of the top 8 in the latest Starcity thing were either 43land or a variant. Did they just dodge all the hate or is everybody exaggerating about how hard it folds to said hate?

I'm assuming you're talking about this one here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2009-12-13&end_date=2009-12-20

Which admittedly had two 43Land decks present. I don't know where you're getting four out of eight . . . aggro loam is very, very different from 43 land.

[dahcmai]

43 land is probably making a comeback due to the fact it has hate, but it's quite specific hate most people don't board too often. Price of Progress is bad, but you tend to only see it out of Zoo anymore. Blood Moon seems non-existent right now. Back to Basics is played only in Merfolk. That's not too bad to have to deal only with those. Extirpate has fallen out of favor it seems to Ravenous Trap and Relic.

Combo is on the downswing also and that helps a ton. Not hitting some random tendrils deck would let them go far. Things like Dreadnoughts, Goyfs, Goblins, and Marit Lage tokens are laughable to this deck for the most part.

So I can see how it did well. You're really only going to be stopped by combo, a fast Goblins start (and it better be damned good), Maybe a Counterbalance deck, and stuff along those lines.

[Otter]

Which admittedly had two 43Land decks present. I don't know where you're getting four out of eight . . . aggro loam is very, very different from 43 land.

They're different decks from their perspective, but from the point of view of the metagame they're quite similar. They eat decks that aren't combo and don't have an answer to Loam, have problems with grave hate like Exitrpate, are vulnerable to PoP/Moon/B2B, and like to recur Wastelands. Yeah, there are plenty of serious differences to them and I'm not trying to deny that, but they both thrive in similar conditions. It's wrong to call them both 43land, but it doesn't really change the main point that Loam-based strats were kicking ass that day.