[Deck] UW Tempo

[rayaj]

SOFI and SOLS have been discussed already, but I think if I can get one or the other I'd slide it into a side spot that I'm less sure on.

[Forbiddian]

Is forge-tender really that worth it to board these days? At the same time, is it really necessary to board the third grunt as well?

Rather unrelated: What do you think about the new War-Priest of Thune coming out in M11? 1W 2/2 that can destroy an enchantment when it comes into play. I think it could maybe warrant siding, but I wasnt sure since aura is probably better in most situations. I just thought it would be nice to vial in to kill library, counterbalance, survival, etc.

@ BFT: I have no idea. Goblins and/or Ichorid might make a comeback with Mystical getting axed. BFT is godly in those matchups, but not very strong elsewhere (except like Burn, lolol). I'll have to wait and get data on the new metagame before making any decisions.

@Grunt: I don't have a third grunt in my board anymore, since Thresh isn't played all that much. It can be good against New Horizons, but everything in the deck is pretty good against New Horizons, so it's tough to still justify Grunt as a board slot.

@War Priest of Thune: It's ok, but 90% of the time, you want to destroy artifacts. I'll think about it more, since getting a 2/2 is pretty sweet.

[rayaj]

Yeah, thats why I was really not making a big deal about the war priest, but I thought it would have a lot of synergy as its a cc2 card and can get rid of a lot of the annoyances that we see across the table, heck it even kills standstill(which is usually irrelevant if we have the vial anyway). I just thought it was a decent body and let us not have to counter library against zoo while giving us a body to block with.

I'm going to test against my friend's zoo deck more in the fall and see what works best with what I have on hand. I still like the idea of kitchen finks because it gains life and kills kird ape/nacatl/loam lion. Even though it is a cc3 card, I've played many games outside of UW tempo with it in decks and never found it unwelcome in hand.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

I failed at todays tournament.
Didn't play NoGoyf for a long time.....

Maindeck: See Tinefol.
Sideboard:
3 Aura of Silence
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Pithing Needle (which is kinda meh)
3 Burrenton Forge Tender
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Wing Shards (I'm really happy with this decision)


Round 1: Marcel with Gub Vengevine Survival
Game 1: Wayfarer fetches Wastelands, Avenger and Fathom Seer stall till Jace resolves and he concedes. And in between a survival meets my FoW.
Game 2: Double Mother of Runes, double Fathom Seer + some swords are enough till Jace saves the day once again.
2-0, 1-0

Round 2: Dennis with 4c Aggro Loam
Game 1: I've nothing, he has too many threats (2x Confidants, Crusher, Knight, etc.)
Game 2: Wing Shards trades 5-1 but he trades DD for my whole board and a topdecked Goyf finishes me.
0-2, 1-1

Round 3: Fabian with Belcher
Game 1: Since I know he plays Belcher I keep Force, Force, pitch, pitch, Wayfarer, Grunt, Vial on the draw. I force his turn 1 Belcher, find a land on my third draw step, force another Belcher and finally Daze a Spoils of the Vault ftw.
Game 2: I keep Spell Pierce, BFT²and stuff but never get to see another card (hint: A Belcher which dealt 30+ damage may have been involved).
Game 3: I get an Aura, double BFT and Mystic + Jitte into play, but he finds a Belcher and all the mana he needs just in time to kill me.
1-2, 1-2

Round 4: Christian with Grixis Control
Game 1: he trades 1 for 1, I resolve 2 Fathom Seer. Card advantage just wins control mirrors.
Game 2: More of the same. Wayfarer goes crazy fetching at least 5 lands, and I get too many threats for him to answer.
One intersting situation: my board is Wayfarer, BFT and Grunt. He plays Damnation but taps all his four lands to do so. I daze (returning a land), he forces, I crack a fetch to Brainstorm finding a second Daze and a Force. Since he has only one card left in his hand, Daze seems like the best option. But I have 3 lands in play and a Jace in my hand. I decide to force (pitching Daze xD) and play the Jace in my turn. Fateseal reveals a Fact or Fiction (which is fine) but his last card in hand turns out to be his own Jace. :/
2-0, 2-2

Round 5: Marc with Dredge
Game 1: Ichorids steamroll me.
Game 2: Turn 2 Wheel + Force (and pitch). And some creatures.
Game 3: Mulligan to six (Grunt, Sword, Spell Pierce, Waste, 2 lands) are better than my seven cards (2 Force and 5 lands) and I decide to keep that hand.(Maybe this was the wrong decision?) He gets a slow start but explodes on his fourth turn (explosion = Iona + 2 Zombies and a few Ichorids waiting in his grave).
1-2, 2-3

Round 6: Marcel (Amaroid) with Rb Goblins
Game 1: Vial, force for his Vial and Waste for his second land. He does't find another land and concedes.
Game 2: Swords for the first turn Lackey. Pyrostatic Pillar comes down turn 2, Vial on his third turn. Both do nothing. Stoneforge Mystic fetches Jitte and I'm able to force his Pyrokinesis. GG.
2-0, 3-3


Great, a room full of Goblins, tempo decks (Canadian/New Horizons) and 3+ Color Control decks. Just the perfect meta for NoGoyf. Still didn't get there.

On Aggro Loam: That matchup looks pretty bad, I had never played against that deck before the tournament with No Goyf (because nobody played Aggro Loam in this region during the last few months).
Too many threats/problems (Kinights, Crusher, Goyfs, Seismic Assault, Dreams, Chalice, Explosives) and card advantage (Loam engine, Confidant). Postboard seems better but still harsh.

[rayaj]

grunt, relic, crypt and grunt should make the loam matchup better, you should focus on keeping their grave small and wiping it whenever it starts getting big. I'm considering my scrubland and 2 extirpate in side against decks like that since it wrecks grave-based decks so hard.

As an aside and a really silly/bad idea: Since we can't hardcast leyline of the void, I like leyline of singularity against ichorid/dredge. Its not that good, but I think its hilarious and actually not bad against other decks as well. Especially dropping against aggro decks that like to play multiples of problem creatures.

[cseraph]

I played against this deck for the first time today with goblins, and threat density strikes me as a huge issue. With the exception of a mystic for equipment, which is not unbeatable, absolutely nothing this deck plays really matters that much for me. Every time a blue card was played I was pleased, up to and including force of will, because the deck doesn't have the finishing power to cause issues for me with the tempo gain as a goyf deck might. Obviously the blue cards offer some advantages vs combo, but they seem like a huge liability against aggro peers, where they're mostly all worse than the equivalent slot fillers in death and taxes.

Working off the death and taxes shell with an anti-combo bent, a black splash for hand disruption, dark confidant, possibly vindicate and sideboard options like perish and e-plague strikes me as the stronger angle, but you can take that for what it is worth.

[Tinefol]

@Forbiddian

Devout Witness has earned the spot in my sideboard. Its awesome. Not the Qasali Pridemage level of awesomeness but its certainly good. Like I've explained previously, the reusability is very nice against some kind of decks, where one-shot Disenchant effects often are not enough, but you can't afford to bring too many of these Disenchant effects. The super awesome bonus is that it can be protected with Mother of Runes.

It beats all white 2/2 destroy artifact or enchantment cards, which I've also considered, including that new War Priest.

Try it.

[Little Red Riding Hood]

grunt, relic, crypt and grunt should make the loam matchup better, you should focus on keeping their grave small and wiping it whenever it starts getting big. I'm considering my scrubland and 2 extirpate in side against decks like that since it wrecks grave-based decks so hard.


Number of Grunts I drew in both games: zero :cry:
Probably I just need to test that matchup some more. But even with all the gravehate a well-timed Assault (gets weakened if you shut down the Loam engine)/Dreams/Explosives/sometimes Chalice still causes lots of problems.


I played against this deck for the first time today with goblins, and threat density strikes me as a huge issue. With the exception of a mystic for equipment, which is not unbeatable, absolutely nothing this deck plays really matters that much for me. Every time a blue card was played I was pleased, up to and including force of will, because the deck doesn't have the finishing power to cause issues for me with the tempo gain as a goyf deck might. Obviously the blue cards offer some advantages vs combo, but they seem like a huge liability against aggro peers, where they're mostly all worse than the equivalent slot fillers in death and taxes.


I played Goblins for like 1 year nonstop (about 20~25 tournaments). And I need to admit that the matchup ist favorable for No Goyf.
Mystic/Jitte is the main reason, but the combination of semi-huge threats at low cost (Grunt/Avenger), some number of removal (StoP, Condemn and/or Wing Shards postboard), some number of protection creatures (Mother + BFT postboard) plus some number of counters (Force, Daze and the mediocre Spell Pierce) and a stable mana base help too. It's the sum of alle these parts.

Aggro matchups in general are favorable (Goblins) or favorable to even (Merfolk, Zoo, Elves). The only real exception I can think of that ever caused problems (excluding Aggro Loam) for me was Death & Taxes.

[cseraph]

I played Goblins for like 1 year nonstop (about 20~25 tournaments). And I need to admit that the matchup ist favorable for No Goyf.
Mystic/Jitte is the main reason, but the combination of semi-huge threats at low cost (Grunt/Avenger), some number of removal (StoP, Condemn and/or Wing Shards postboard), some number of protection creatures (Mother + BFT postboard) plus some number of counters (Force, Daze and the mediocre Spell Pierce) and a stable mana base help too. It's the sum of alle these parts.

Aggro matchups in general are favorable (Goblins) or favorable to even (Merfolk, Zoo, Elves). The only real exception I can think of that ever caused problems (excluding Aggro Loam) for me was Death & Taxes.

I'd rather not get sucked in to subjective matchup assessment discussion because it is a morass and I don't care about the epeen, but I've already adjusted to have a reasonable D&T matchup (very popular online) and there's nothing this deck does that that deck doesn't do better in this particular matchup.

If you stacked your board with cards like wing shards and BFT you'll improve your goblins match for certain, and wing shards in particular is a hilarious blowout vs certain goblins draws, but I'm skeptical that you can afford to devote that much sideboard space to prop up the weak main.
Grunt doesn't strike me as a strong matchup card as they can wait him out early and ignore him late, avenger is better but pretty incinerator-able.

In any case, if you're happy with your aggro matchups, good stuff, I'm simply pointing out the issues as I see them.

It is a pity there isn't a white natural order, this seems like a deck that would really benefit from one.

[rayaj]

Tinefol: Did you replace the Auras with the witness? I just don't like it all that much, but I generally don't really like creatures like that where you have to discard and pay for the ablility but I can see applications against opposing vials and such. I may test wing shards since you've had such sucess with it though it still doesn't sit well with me.

[Tinefol]

@rayaj
I did. It really is sinergystic with the deck (puts some further use to Wayfarer and Fathom Seer activations), and even besides that there are quite a few situations where you'd want to turn any card in your hand into Disenchant. Not to mention its reusable.

I was skeptical about Witness in the first place, I just didn't like how vulnerable Aura is to Grip, which prevents it from being played preemptively, and it was just a one-shot effect. Witness usually would never be a prime target for an opponent, and it can be protected with Mom. UWT seeks to establish control of the board and trade down, and Witness does just that. It is slow, but long games happen with UWT, so you have the time to get full effect from it. While Vials are not prime targets (Equipments, Counterbalance, and all other pesky artifacts and enchantments are), I wouldn't mind shutting down a Vial with a spare land.

@cseraph
Yeah, thanks for sharing your experience and insights, just settle on. In short, comparing UWT to D&T is like comparing Goblins to Dragon Stompy, the decks are really similar, true story.

[rayaj]

How well has Jace been working for you? I'm not sure what to think if he's really that worth the slot or if I want to continue with the vexing sphinx and go back to three vial(which I have actually been planning on doing). I'm also considering finding room for the 18th land(even if I have to be a jackass and go to 61 cards) and maining a scrubland so I can side two extirpate against lands/ichorid/loam but maybe thats overkill and relic/crypt can get there...

[Tinefol]

Jace is okay, what else you'd expect from a singleton (I play 3 vials)? Most games I don't even draw into it for the obvious reasons, games where I stick him I certainly don't complain.

I think I wouldn't board 'pate against Loam. I'm fine with relic/wheel and some additional removal. On other hand, I'm not seeing the deck much, and only RGW builds are played there (which are quite different from RGB). The current S/B is good enough against Ichorid for sure.

If I'm to go with 18 lands I'd probably get fourth Wasteland or Kor Haven (a bad Maze of Ith effect, but unlike Maze of Ith, which is bad for this very reason: it doesn't produce mana, Kor Haven does. Also, it enables profitable 'chump' blocking since your creatures still deal damage).

[cseraph]

@rayaj

@cseraph
Yeah, thanks for sharing your experience and insights, just settle on. In short, comparing UWT to D&T is like comparing Goblins to Dragon Stompy, the decks are really similar, true story.

Not really. Your threats are largely identical, you've dropped the mangara engine and added counters to improve some matchups while worsening others. A more appropriate analogy would be to different colour splashes in goblins, though the difference is slightly further than those usually go.

I think there's a reason death and taxes is performing quite well compared to this one, partly about how many people are playing it but possibly partly about threat density as well.

If you'd rather be rude than discuss it, though, that's your perogative.

[Tinefol]

Not really. Your threats are largely identical, you've dropped the mangara engine and added counters to improve some matchups while worsening others. A more appropriate analogy would be to different colour splashes in goblins, though the difference is slightly further than those usually go.

I'd say all decks running Tarmogoyf, KOTR and Qasali Pridemage run largely identical threats, so BANT aggro = Zoo = RGW Loam = GW Survial, and the point is moot. UWT and D&T share about as many creatures, and that's because these creatures are good, not because the decks are the same.

* UWT never run the Mangara engine. It couldn't drop it. In fact, it couldn't even run it, ever.
* UWT runs much smaller landbase
* UWT runs card advantage
* UWT runs permission, which, unlike you assume, not only highly improves some matches, but also improves overall consistency of the deck and its susceptibility to hate. It just doesn't worsen the deck anyhow. In fact it'd be hard for me to name a match up where D&T would be better. Surely not goblins.
* UWT plays differently, it doesn't share a game plan with D&T. It applies different tricks and cares for different things.

So the point stands, if you switch lackey and vial for Chalice and Sphere, add some 2 mana lands and morphs, the decks are the same, yeah.



I think there's a reason death and taxes is performing quite well compared to this one, partly about how many people are playing it but possibly partly about threat density as well.

Get into REAL world, UWT just can not be build online - some cards are unavailable, thus the deck is unexistent. As for what deck performs better, visit the bloody deckcheck: D&T (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Death+%26+Taxes&format=Legacy), UWT (http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?type=Fish&format=Legacy) (and some finishes are filed under Rogue). I'll let you calculate the number of top8s in 2010 yourself. And you're correct about it: UWT is less popular even in real life.


If you'd rather be rude than discuss it, though, that's your perogative.

I'm inclined to, since you're claiming stupid wild things based on nothing (wait, you played 1 game?).

[menace13]

UWT is fully available on MTGO, we were missing MoMs but got her recently.

[Tinefol]

Well, I thought Mom still isn't available. When did they print it?

[chmoddity]

I don't want to take sides. I am mostly a lurker.

Yet I want to make some things clear. The online metagame began differently than the paper one. True, some cards were unavailable (some still are - btw, D+T uses Rishadan Port pretty prominently, and the players have been making due without it, oh and Mother of Runes too), but mostly the decks found online were the same for the first month or so with a serious exception. The number of combo decks was too small. Other differences were there, but to a lesser degree. NoGoyf (still called that at the time) was also there at first. I played the mirror maybe 3 times. The pilots were mostly poor, but it was the same for every deck. I mention all of this because a funny thing happened. Death and Taxes came out of the mess to grab a dominant position not because personalities and local metagames were causing it to be hyped, but because it performed. In a sense, the online metagame is more "real" than paper cards. I am sure that money was an issue. But most of the expensive blue decks got marginalized because of D+T. It's presence in the meta is what eventually caused Landstill to come back to life - and that deck is expensive to build. At this same time, UWT fell off the map. I am one of very few people playing it online.

I have played both of these decks online and in real life. They play a completely different strategy, but many of the tactics are the same. So opponents tend to regard them similarly. I can see where cseraph is coming from in that regard. Importantly, the blue elements of this deck are what both slow it down and give it threshold-like consistency. UWT plays closer to control, gaining many small advantages while D+T wants to come out swinging with a backup plan. I like both decks. After piloting this one for the past few months, I might switch back to D+T. Combo looks like it is on its way out.

[menace13]

Well, I thought Mom still isn't available. When did they print it?
Oh it was pretty recent too, like a few weeks ago(June 11th IIRC).

[Tinefol]

Went 2-1-1 today (again). It was a small tourney, just 11players, so at least I made it into top4.
0-2 BGW Sur, 2-1 Show'n'Tell/Emrakul, 2-0 BW Pox, 0-0 vs BGW Sur (literally the longest game ever, he escaped it with Genesis/Spore Frog, while I failed to draw into FoW or StP forever).

I seem to be doing very poorly against BGW Sur. They have all these singletones that make your life miserable.

1) Zoo-like draws with multiple Goyfs and Qasalis
2) Qasali itself, ruining your jitte or vial plans.
3) Surviva l+ multiple vials, where you can't counter it - and you most likely lose.
4) Vialed Mystic fetching SoLaS (and they always manage to draw into that singleton anyway, even without Mystics), and you never draw into Seer to block with Mom or into graveyard removal to nullify the ability.
5) Orzhoff Pontiff (hate hate hate, even though its singleton, they're always getting it)
6) Spore Frog which screws all your tempo plans.
7) Witness that doubles the above problems.

Or perhaps I have a streak of bad luck against the deck. Anyways, I've played with Kor Haven as 18th land today. Wouldn't say it is awesome, but it saved my ass in one game, and its never bad if you're flooded, or have some spare Wayfarer activations.

[znoyes]

If zoo is a hard matchup (and to a lesser extent, the merfolk deck with 16 lords) and these are both a large portion of the metagame, is it good to board in 3-4 Threads of Disloyalty? Has it been tried?

[cseraph]

I'd say all decks running Tarmogoyf, KOTR and Qasali Pridemage run largely identical threats, so BANT aggro = Zoo = RGW Loam = GW Survial, and the point is moot. UWT and D&T share about as many creatures, and that's because these creatures are good, not because the decks are the same.

Bant aggro doesn't run the same creatures as Zoo or RGW Loam, though. Bant aggro runs rhox war monks and usually doesn't run pridemages, zoo runs little guys and lavamancers, Loam runs crushers and terravores, etc. Your creature base is literally the same, besides fathom seers, which in combat is obviously terrible whatever its other benefits.


* UWT runs permission, which, unlike you assume, not only highly improves some matches, but also improves overall consistency of the deck and its susceptibility to hate. It just doesn't worsen the deck anyhow. In fact it'd be hard for me to name a match up where D&T would be better. Surely not goblins.

I explicitly stated that counter-magic clearly improves some matchups. I think it is obvious that it also worsens others, and I think goblins is one of them.

Your deck 2 for 1s itself off FoW, lacks protection from colour guys, has no karakas inevitability engine and has dead late draws (daze, FoWs without blue cards etc). I don't see how it could *not* be worse than D&T against a deck with high card advantage and relatively little vested in individual drops :).


So the point stands, if you switch lackey and vial for Chalice and Sphere, add some 2 mana lands and morphs, the decks are the same, yeah.

I'm inclined to, since you're claiming stupid wild things based on nothing (wait, you played 1 game?).

But I'm not the one making wild claims. You are. The lackey/sphere comment is only one of your specious comments.

I played a match against a rare deck whose threat presentation closely mirrors a much more common deck (even if its strategy does not), was surprised and interested by its card choices but felt there were theoretical issues in what it gives against an aggro-leaning meta, and rolled over to the forums to discuss it.

[Tinefol]

Bant aggro doesn't run the same creatures as Zoo or RGW Loam, though. Bant aggro runs rhox war monks and usually doesn't run pridemages, zoo runs little guys and lavamancers, Loam runs crushers and terravores, etc. Your creature base is literally the same, besides fathom seers, which in combat is obviously terrible whatever its other benefits.

Certain bant aggro builds run Kotr, Qasali and goyf, Zoo does too. RGW Loam I'm talking about runs neither Vores, nor Crushers (a player from my meta placed 17th at GP Madrid with it). Therefore the decks are equal, since they share 12 creatures.

Yeah, UWT totally runs Mangara, Stonecloacker, Goldmeadow Harrier, Flickerwisp. Benevolent Bodyguard, Spectral Lynx, etc.
D&T on other hand runs Wayfarer, Fathom Seer and Sphinx. Oh wai...


I think it is obvious that it also worsens others, and I think goblins is one of them.

Totally wrong. In fact, both Daze and FoW are very fine tools against goblins, since they counter the important stuff vs goblins.


Your deck 2 for 1s itself off FoW

Since when that was an argument? Since when FoWing Ringleader is worse than, uhm... using Mangara on it?


lacks protection from colour guys

LOLWUT? Mother of Runes?


has no karakas inevitability engine

Craprakas engine? Against Goblins? Seriously? You are probably busy Wastelanding their Flagstones of Trokair.


and has dead late draws (daze, FoWs without blue cards etc).

You keep forgetting that UWT has a load of card advantage. And it has less dead draws, because it runs less lands. And Daze is almost never useless against goblins.


I don't see how it could *not* be worse than D&T against a deck with high card advantage and relatively little vested in individual drops :).

Except that it has the tools to counter that card advantage and gather card advantage itself?


But I'm not the one making wild claims. You are. The lackey/sphere comment is only one of your specious comments.

There's a definition word about what you're talking about: saracsm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm). Study


I played a match against a rare deck whose threat presentation closely mirrors a much more common deck (even if its strategy does not), was surprised and interested by its card choices but felt there were theoretical issues in what it gives against an aggro-leaning meta, and rolled over to the forums to discuss it.

As I told, thanks for sharing, it doesn't mean you're right, and I'll just keep rolling over Goblins.

[RexFTW]

All of the huge egos in this thread make it almost impossible to resist the urge to troll.

Man i cant resist.

Maybe you should play guard duty. I think its better than STP because they dont gain life.

[menace13]

Bant aggro doesn't run the same creatures as Zoo or RGW Loam, though. Bant aggro runs rhox war monks and usually doesn't run pridemages, zoo runs little guys and lavamancers, Loam runs crushers and terravores, etc. Your creature base is literally the same, besides fathom seers, which in combat is obviously terrible whatever its other benefits.



I explicitly stated that counter-magic clearly improves some matchups. I think it is obvious that it also worsens others, and I think goblins is one of them.

Your deck 2 for 1s itself off FoW, lacks protection from colour guys, has no karakas inevitability engine and has dead late draws (daze, FoWs without blue cards etc). I don't see how it could *not* be worse than D&T against a deck with high card advantage and relatively little vested in individual drops :).



But I'm not the one making wild claims. You are. The lackey/sphere comment is only one of your specious comments.

I played a match against a rare deck whose threat presentation closely mirrors a much more common deck (even if its strategy does not), was surprised and interested by its card choices but felt there were theoretical issues in what it gives against an aggro-leaning meta, and rolled over to the forums to discuss it.

Where is Pi4meter when you need him?

[Isei]

He's currently banned from the source, actually. I would make some huge remark about what an idiot the guy is, but I hope the people in this thread are smart enough to know that this is a clear case of some elitist "pro" trying to spout nonsense without ever learning how to play the deck.

But clearly, he has a point. Force of will is so bad because it 2 for 1's you. Every deck should cut it right now. And clearly, the karkaras inevitability engine is so much better than Fathom Seer.

[mchainmail]

But clearly, he has a point. Force of will is so bad because it 2 for 1's you. Every deck should cut it right now. And clearly, the karkaras inevitability engine is so much better than Fathom Seer.

Do you board Force out against Zoo? Why? / why not?

[Vacrix]

Where is Pi4meter when you need him?
Haven't you heard? Forbiddian and Pi4 are the same person. :P

I do miss reading his trolls. It was like having Jon Stewart read the news. Even if you disagreed with him on something, it was still awesome.

[cseraph]

I expected the FoW-related trolling. FoW is a fantastic card, holds the format together, etc etc. But assuming it is great in every matchup is silly.

FoW without a strong card advantage engine - and I don't believe fathom seer and a singleton sphinx are a powerful card advantage engine, not by format standards - is good in two situations:

1) Against powerful but fragile decks that crumple when a crucial piece is disrupted.

2) When you can quickly take advantage of the tempo/disruption advantage.

I agree that it accomplishes the first goal in this deck, but goblins is not that kind of deck. Goyf blue decks have the speed to benefit from the second, but this deck doesn't.

So yeah, I don't think FoW is as good as, say, burrenton forge tender against goblins.

You're entitled to disagree, but the degree of animosity here is rather amusing :wink:.

[menace13]

I expected the FoW-related trolling. FoW is a fantastic card, holds the format together, etc etc. But assuming it is great in every matchup is silly.

FoW without a strong card advantage engine - and I don't believe fathom seer and a singleton sphinx are a powerful card advantage engine, not by format standards - is good in two situations:

1) Against powerful but fragile decks that crumple when a crucial piece is disrupted.

2) When you can quickly take advantage of the tempo/disruption advantage.

I agree that it accomplishes the first goal in this deck, but goblins is not that kind of deck. Goyf blue decks have the speed to benefit from the second, but this deck doesn't.

So yeah, I don't think FoW is as good as, say, burrenton forge tender against goblins.

You're entitled to disagree, but the degree of animosity here is rather amusing :wink:.

Obv the most played card of Eternal formats must be bad across a huge spectrum of match-ups, k got it thx for stopping by i'll take your advice.

[Isei]

I expected the FoW-related trolling. FoW is a fantastic card, holds the format together, etc etc. But assuming it is great in every matchup is silly.

FoW without a strong card advantage engine - and I don't believe fathom seer and a singleton sphinx are a powerful card advantage engine, not by format standards.

You misunderstand the deck once again. You're assuming that all of our card advantage is in Fathom seer? Try Weathered Wayfarer. Sure, some might say it only gets land, etc. But, unless you happen to be a neolithic idiot of a player, you don't evaluate cards in a vacuum. Wayfarer makes UW Tempo basically the only deck that can, with fair consistency, turn Brainstorm into Ancestral Recall. Also, since the deck only runs 18 land in the first place, quite a lot of your draws are going to be business. This is even more noticeable with an active wayfarer, which in itself can be called card advantage.

Also, animosity in this thread is mainly directed towards people that have no idea what they're actually talking about.

[cseraph]

I may well be under-estimating wayfarer - but you're probably also over-estimating how easy it is to stay behind on lands against a more aggressive aether vial deck.

Your use of logic about the role you see wayfarer playing is good, though. The Ad hominem about having no idea what one is talking about isn't.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

It's not an ad hominem to say that you don't have any idea what you're talking about because, in fact, you do not. Everyone could be nicer about it, but like most of NG's critics, you came into the thread brashly insisting that one of our strongly favorable matchups is actually unfavorable because you saw it play once (which is better than most, I admit) and are now officially qualified to commentate. In reality, Goblins is very easy for NG and despite my unfamiliarity with D&T, I suspect for them too. You're welcome to believe it isn't, but as Tinefol said, it's more or less proven and if you're going to insist against the facts, you're welcome to keep it to yourself.

About NG specifically, it's the most consistent t8 finisher of the 3 decks in the format that currently run a white weenie strategy. Uniquely among them, it also has (as you mentioned) a problem Zoo matchup, somewhere between 40/60 against and 50/50. Unfortunately boarding more heavily for an easy matchup with an entirely different strategy won't help us against Zoo, so you'll have to take it on faith that it gets kind of exhausting to have the thread cluttered by trolls rather than ideas for how to handle the real problems.

[Isei]

After testing the matchup with pi4meterftw, I'm not so sure it's a negative matchup at all. It is probably right around 50/50, hovering towards 55/45, with correct play. Threads of disloyalty in the sideboard are quite good.

[cseraph]

A post is worth very little when ad hominems' and straight assertions take the place of analysis, and whatever else you think of my posts, they do contain reasons and logic. Simply saying "goblins is a very easy matchup" without assessing why or how you believe that to be the case is a waste of the reader's time. Merfolk is widely agreed to be very soft to goblins, even with jitte and a white splash, so I'd be very curious to hear why a superficially similar strategy plays out so differently for you (and yes, mystic is incredible, but goblin players who haven't adjusted to beat mystic are behind the times).

Still, I didn't come here to bash anyone's pet deck, and I'm sorry if I have been interpreted that way. I follow the online legacy meta primarily and D&T is far and away the top white weenie performer there, but if UW-Tempo is a better deck then it will presumably see more play in the future. I'm happy to test with what I have available with anyone looking to make it so.

[Isei]

If you stopped being a pretentious bastard, people probably wouldn't bash you as much.

First of all, let's start with what an ad hominem really is. It is a statement, often critical, following an argument to make it seem more persuasive, and is considered a fallacy in logical argument. A good example would be:

"You can't believe Jack when he says the proposed policy would help the economy. He doesn't even have a job."

The second part, which is the ad hominem, is directly linked to the first part of the statement: trying to discredit Jack. Now, let's compare this to what I put in my post:

"Also, animosity in this thread is mainly directed towards people that have no idea what they're actually talking about."

This is quite clearly an aside, addressing another point you had included in your previous post. As written, it is functionally interchangeable with the postscript of a letter. Just because something is gratuitous abuse of other people does not automatically make it an ad hominem. Here's another, theoretical example of one for you, that someone could possibly type if they wanted to use an ad hominem:

"Cseraph doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to UW Tempo. He's just a bad magic player in general."

The "He's just a bad magic player in general" being the ad hominem.


Now that we have that settled, I'll continue with actual, on topic discussion.


Merfolk loses to goblins because it tries to compete with it on a creature to creature basis. Even decks that run Tarmogoyf cannot manage this-- Canadian Threshold's way to win was to draw the sideboarded pyroclasms. Goyf only bought time. UW Tempo, on the other hand, has creatures that actually have abilities. This may be a difficult concept, so give it a couple minutes to set in before continuing.

The most notable is Mother of Runes. This card absolutely trounces Goblins, forcing them to not want to attack into your ever-untapped Serra Avenger. Weathered Wayfarer can keep up the aforementioned card advantage while, if needed, trade with a Lackey. All of this is on top of running 4 effective jittes (2 Stoneforge), and very few dead cards in the matchup (compare: 2 Spell Pierce vs. 4 Standstill and up to 4 Stifle).


Another note I'd like to make is that you have yet to actually offer anything constructive to this discussion as well. It seems all your posts can be summed up as such:

"LOLZ DNT is SO good. I love it. It makes me cream my pants. So, every other deck must suck. So, UWT sucks. It has bad matchups vs everything. I mean, there must be some reason everyone plays DNT. After all, who would actually play a deck that isn't the best in the format online? Since DNT dominates online, it's obviously the best ever ever ever."

I may exaggerate a bit, but you get the idea. Please, if you post here again, actually say something other than attempting to use Latin phrases when you have no actual idea what they mean.

[cseraph]

Exaggerate a little? Please. Read your own post again.

I could as easily have phrased as my first post as "hey, it is super-cool that you're using a white weenie base with a much stronger combo matchup than D&T. Too bad it looks like it sacrifices the aggro matchups some." That I put a more negative twist on it is I suppose my mistake.

Obviously FoW is a remarkable tool against combo for a WW deck, and I think D&T has its own issues. Online is a bit weird vis a vis paper in that card availability works very differently, but it also sees a lot more actual games played than paper does, which is of some value. I flipped through the decks of the week for last week as a quick reference, and D&T made T8 four times in 5 events, UW Tempo zero. Other weeks I've seen are roughly similar, though I haven't bothered tallying them.

It is possible that this is because people online are missing the power of the deck, and if so, I'd be more than happy to see online fans of it prove me wrong. My initial reaction was that online has a ton of aggro decks, and what looked to me like an aggro weakness might be the culprit. I don't think that's crazy or foolish.

Finally... if topic-free abuse of a person in a public forum isn't intended to degrade their points, what exactly is it intended to do? It wouldn't be respected in a work or academic setting and I don't particularly respect it here.

[menace13]

The major reason UWT/NG is not online as much as DNT is more to do with budgets of said pilots than anything else. The cost of UWT is more than double and that is in just the 4 FoWs alone....... Also the reason why decks like Goblins are as poular online, people won't/can't buy the duals and FoW. As of 6/28 the standings for online events showing the top 3 decks are: Goblins(64 wins) Zoo(63W) and DNT(53W).

[stuckpixel]

Yup. FoWs are in the 75-80 dollar range each, dazes are 8-10 bucks each. Throw in two sets of fetches, wastes and a grip of tundras, and you have a very, very expensive deck online.

I'm still building it - but it's not going to be cheap, and I can see that turning a very high percentage of players away from blue in general online.

[menace13]

Yup. FoWs are in the 75-80 dollar range each, dazes are 8-10 bucks each. Throw in two sets of fetches, wastes and a grip of tundras, and you have a very, very expensive deck online.

I'm still building it - but it's not going to be cheap, and I can see that turning a very high percentage of players away from blue in general online.

Yeah, I would not take that kid seriously at all. He plays budget gobs online and all of a sudden is now qualified to comment and share his amazing insight into a format he has not even won one event in???? go buy some fukn duals you broke bastard!!

[Isei]

Exaggerate a little? Please. Read your own post again.

I have, and see no issue. Perhaps you could be more specific?



Obviously FoW is a remarkable tool against combo for a WW deck, and I think D&T has its own issues. Online is a bit weird vis a vis paper in that card availability works very differently, but it also sees a lot more actual games played than paper does, which is of some value. I flipped through the decks of the week for last week as a quick reference, and D&T made T8 four times in 5 events, UW Tempo zero. Other weeks I've seen are roughly similar, though I haven't bothered tallying them.


Yes, and the same was true of burn decks in the recent Extended tournaments. That doesn't mean it's a stronger deck than Thepts. In fact, budget decks doing well seems to be a very common trend online. Hmm. Who wold have thought that people playing MODO would be too cheap to invest in more than $100 for a deck?



It is possible that this is because people online are missing the power of the deck, and if so, I'd be more than happy to see online fans of it prove me wrong. My initial reaction was that online has a ton of aggro decks, and what looked to me like an aggro weakness might be the culprit. I don't think that's crazy or foolish.


It is not our job to convince other people of this deck's supremacy. In fact, quite the opposite: I'm sure most people in this thread would be perfectly fine to continue doing well in tournaments and have no one else pick up the deck. What you need to do is get your head out of.... the sky, and realize this basic fact:

YOU NEED TO TEST A DECK YOURSELF BEFORE BEING ABLE TO COMMENT AT ALL ON IT.



Finally... if topic-free abuse of a person in a public forum isn't intended to degrade their points, what exactly is it intended to do? It wouldn't be respected in a work or academic setting and I don't particularly respect it here.

Ah, abuse for the sake of abuse, of course. I'm not intending to get the idiots who come here solely to rip on this deck to feel that they're in an actual debate. I'm attempting to make them feel that they have no idea what they're talking about (which, most of the time, they don't), and stop posting needless comments in a thread that they, again, do not have the mental capacity to understand. Do not assume that all of my comments were directed at you; they were directed at the vast majority of nutless "pro magic players" who do exactly what you're doing now-- go into a thread, comment on it, and then refuse to listen to anything anyone has to say.

The interesting part is, I don't need to degrade your 'points,' since any person who has read this thread for any period of time has seen them at least 20 times before. I'm just trying to get you to find the lube you need to pry your head out of your ass, and listen to what other people are saying, rather than assuming you're always right.

[Aleksandr]

I left this thread some months ago, but it is still the same source of comedy gold as ever. I must start reading where I finished. Shame that some of the most funny imbeciles are banned...

[Forbiddian]

It is not out job to convince other people of this deck's supremacy. In fact, quite the opposite: I'm sure most people in this thread would be perfectly fine to continue doing well in tournaments and have no one else pick up the deck.

Yeah, lol, I'm happy with my ~$400 in tournament winnings (compared to about $100 in entrance fees), only playing the deck occasionally.

I think people who play the deck more like Tinefol and Stuckpixel are doing even better in terms of the "playing MTG to build my collection" department since they have more games. And I know Jeff has a stack of winnings under his belt as well, if just from the hundreds he won at SCGs.

[Tinefol]

Not really, I just dump my salary (or what's left of it) into magic xD. I have a project of pimping out my UWT (non foil though, because I hate foils), and that sucks a whole lot of money. FBB Tundras were really expensive, asian fetches and Wastelands aren't too cheap as well.

Played with Kor Haven MD.
Anyways, went 3-1-1 today, finishing 8th. Won against UR Kiln Fiend aggro 2-0 (Kor Haven was golden game1, saving me, despite huge floods). Won against Dreadstill 2-0 (Kor Haven again was awesome holding Dreadnought till I got swords, and game2 Devout Witness just made him concede). I've seen 5 dreadnoughts throughout two games. I'm happy to finally win this match. Won vs Food chain combo 2-0, lost to BW Pox (some weak hands, and he had Dark Confidant all the time), and had a draw vs MonoG Prog Survival, where he escaped game3 on turns.

I was horribly flooded today about too often. Perhaps 18 lands is too many, but I kind of liked Kor Haven.

[Isei]

You won't stop floods by adding or removing one land, and I'm happy with the 18; I think it's right. I run the 4 waste, 7 fetch, 3 basic, 4 tundra build. Boring, but tried and true.

[stuckpixel]

Pimping in progress on my UW Tempo deck too, whadda know. Helps that some sourcer gifted me FBB swords and foreign vials last xmas. Just picked up some foriegn jittes =D Something tells me it's going to be a while before I FBB my duals, but I'm working on everything else.

Isei - are you just cutting the singleton vexing sphinx then to get up to 18? I've been contemplating going back up to 18 lands (having the 4th wasteland is very nice). I've also been toying with running a walker in the singleton slot - but haven't had enough experience to know if that's a fool's errand or if it's going to work out well. Elspeth seems pretty nice in that slot.

Tinefol - Do you not see a lot of combo in your meta? To me, it seems like Aura of Silence is nice not only because it's an answer to troublesome artifact and enchantments directly, but because it taxes combo like crazy too. Granted, we have better taxing pieces than it, but it's pretty solid if we can get it on the board. Also, the only way it can be k-gripped is if you play it out early. If you keep it in your hand until they drop the problem enchantment/artifact, you can play it - not pass priority - and sac it before they have a chance to play their k-grip.

[Tinefol]

There's a bit of 'combo' (like SNT-Emrakul) but not storm based one.

I want Artifact/Enchantment hate to be 'taxing'. Aura works nicely with its +2 cc requirement, but I found it to be more vulnerable (its a sad sad world, where artifacts and enchantments are more vulnerable than creatures). Witness lets you dump excessive lands for continuous Disenchant. I side it in against Survival/equipment decks, where Aura is something useless that dies to Grip/Qasali and is offset by a single Eternal Witness.

[stuckpixel]

Yeah, I see a lot of storm combo in my meta, which is the main reason I haven't moved away from aura. That, plus the e-tutor board.

I did pick up a playset of foil Witnesses though, just to be safe. =D Storm might be dropping more in the coming days, if it does, Witness goes in.

[Isei]

No, stuck, I only run 2 vial. Drawing multiples is bad.

[dr4g0n]

Hey guys,

I'm pretty new to this UW Tempo thing, but I've been following for quite a while. I'm going to a local tourney in a coupla weeks, and I've decided to run UW Tempo, since most people there will expect zoo from me (I'm the one who first ran zoo in this particular meta). In any case, Zoo is expected to be a strong presence, but the rest of the meta is pretty much blind (as in the people who play there are different each time, and I’m not sure what they’re going to bring. Can anyone suggest a list that does well against Zoo, but still has a reasonable MU against most other decks?

Cheers.

[Isei]

Hey guys,

Can anyone suggest a list that does well against Zoo, but still has a reasonable MU against most other decks?

Cheers.

The main list, with 1 vexing sphinx and 2 jotun grunt. The main this is to PRACTICE THE MATCHUP.

[stuckpixel]

The main list will do you well. All of the zoo matchups I've played I either won or felt like I could have won if I had tightened up my game.

If you are really nervous and/or expect a ton of zoo in the meta, you could SB for that deck (Perimeter Captain or extra condemns out of the board)

[jedi_gof]

Hi guys,

Im back, long time no see...
Only played this deck once recently going 2-2 (cant remember MUs at all). Been waiting for last amount of pimp to get home to me, and by pimp i mean foil not foreign cards. Apart from duals and forces, all of it is now shiny:) so will be playing this again next week and post results inhere.
Have just been busy with some funny decks and havent had the time to post in here. Most recently the survival/vengevine package... why? Because I can and its silly.:) Guess you can say i have been in cookie mode, causing my eternal rating to take a serious beating, dropping from round 1825 to 1750. Now its soon time to play some good decks again so i atleast can get back up in the 1800 range

Must admit our local meta is very shifting, meaning that it is hard to meta choose your deck at the moment. Therefore i havent been as comfortable running UW tempo recently caus of random deck that just steamrolls you.
When I play this deck, I more or less the standard list, SB somewhat changes but nothing spectacular.

Will try to keep up tournament scores again - you will here from me as this is among the all time favorit decks for me.
This deck has one of my best performance records, along with NoLED ANT(preban), Merfolks and a homebrew moat/aggrodeck that caught everyone in my local meta by surprise.

Finally, wasnt it an idea to have an section in the op with cards discussed and dismissed and on with borderline cards that some of you/us find worthy of testing?
This should eliviate some of the stupid posts suggestions and/or the recurring suggestions as many dont spend the time to see if a suggested card allready had been discussed?
And more importantly it could lead to more serious testing of the cards that might actually be playable.

(sorry for a bit messy post)

[Kudd]

I have been playing this deck for 2 weeks and have found a problem that I can not deal with quite yet, Engineered Explosives. As of now my only options are to counter the EE, however it usually happens that they play around spell pierce and daze so my options are FoW. It is quickly approaching the need for 3-4 stifles in the side board.

Has anyone else run into this problem? If so, how have you handled this? If not, please post some other ideas as to how to deal with EE.

[Isei]

I have been playing this deck for 2 weeks and have found a problem that I can not deal with quite yet, Engineered Explosives. As of now my only options are to counter the EE, however it usually happens that they play around spell pierce and daze so my options are FoW. It is quickly approaching the need for 3-4 stifles in the side board.

Has anyone else run into this problem? If so, how have you handled this? If not, please post some other ideas as to how to deal with EE.

Generally, as long as they aren't 3- and 4- for 1'ing you, I haven't found it to be a problem. If they are using Academy ruins to recur it, just find a wasteland. Otherwise, you should have plenty of card advantage to play through it.

[Kudd]

Generally, as long as they aren't 3- and 4- for 1'ing you, I haven't found it to be a problem. If they are using Academy ruins to recur it, just find a wasteland. Otherwise, you should have plenty of card advantage to play through it.

So, lets say they are 3 for 1'ing me. It sounds like that would be my fault for over extending. Still, since UW tempo runs 1 and 2cc creatures, a EE will always 2-3 for 1 me.

[Honoluluicecaps]

This might be out of left field but have we discussed the possibility of Sea Drake as a 1 or 2 of in this deck? The ability is triggered, so we can morph fathom seer or vial him in and crack fetchlands in response so that there is no drawback (since it gets countered if we only have one land in play). I just feel with so many of lands leaving play, his drawback could be negated. Plus, I always want Serra Avenger 5-6 and although he doesn't do it as pretty as she does, I think he might have a lot of value in this deck as a 2-of. Possibly in the KotWO and one Fathom Seer spot?

[Isei]

Possibly in the KotWO and one Fathom Seer spot?

Play with the deck before posting in this thread.

If you'd played this deck at all, or kept up with this thread, you'd know KotWO is no longer played, and hasn't been since ~December, and that there is no possible way you would ever want to cut fathom seer.

[naurthal]

hmm. Would Cataclysm help with lands matchup?

[Jonathan Alexander]

It guess it's way too clunky and slow against Lands. And by the time you could cast it, they will most likely have Loam online anyway. I'll keep playing Enlightened Tutor + Gravehate. Nobody plays Lands here anyway. It's kind of sad that such a nice deck is limited by it's high price but I'm also glad I'm not playing every second match against Lands.

[Honoluluicecaps]

@Isei: You know, it's adorable that you can accuse me of not playing the deck because I haven't posted before and my current build runs Knight of the White Orchid... or furthermore that KotWO is universally NOT PLAYED despite the fact that the list from the OP was edited in April and still had it.

There's no need to get aggressive because I offered a choice that you disagree with. In fact, while I HAVE been testing with Sea Drake in this deck, I imagine you took one look at it and decided to attack me rather than consider it. Fact is, adding in two more creatures that would put your opponent on a substantial clock is not a bad thing. One look on deckcheck reveals a UWT deck that ran one Sea Drake in the flex position http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35249 as recently as May.

My point is that I believe it's worth consideration, and that it has definite synergy with Weathered Wayfarer AND is simultaneously a beater.

[stuckpixel]

I've never really had problems with lands frankly. Early wastes on critical lands, swords for their factories. If they manage a tabernacle, just keep your serra avenger out and beat face.

Bring in 'yard hate out of the board.

Cataclysm isn't really a viable answer - if they have a crucible or a loam, then they'll just bring back what they need anyways.

[Jonathan Alexander]

So how did Drake work out for you then? I have no intention to buy one or two just to see them being totally awkward.
And by the way, has anyone tested Spiketail Hatchling yet? I recently threw them in instead of Spell Pierce and Sphinx but I never saw one despite once against Affinity, where it was pitched to Force. The problem I see with it is that it seems to be just another tiny 1/1 creature, that can be great but most of the time is either being pitched to Force or occasionally being vialed in because of nothing else to do (and to deal one more damage per turn, whatever).

[Isei]

@Isei: You know, it's adorable that you can accuse me of not playing the deck because I haven't posted before and my current build runs Knight of the White Orchid... or furthermore that KotWO is universally NOT PLAYED despite the fact that the list from the OP was edited in April and still had it.

There's no need to get aggressive because I offered a choice that you disagree with. In fact, while I HAVE been testing with Sea Drake in this deck, I imagine you took one look at it and decided to attack me rather than consider it. Fact is, adding in two more creatures that would put your opponent on a substantial clock is not a bad thing. One look on deckcheck reveals a UWT deck that ran one Sea Drake in the flex position http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=35249 as recently as May.

My point is that I believe it's worth consideration, and that it has definite synergy with Weathered Wayfarer AND is simultaneously a beater.

I would take the time to write something about this, but I'd rather just post a recent AIM log.



(9:36:53 PM) pi4meterftw: it's a good thing nobody cares what an ice cap thinks about the best deck in the format anyway
(9:37:10 PM) pi4meterftw: Especially one that resides in honolulu, since it would melt soon anyway
(9:37:17 PM) Isei: ...?
(9:37:31 PM) pi4meterftw: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15562-[Deck]-UW-Tempo&p=472016&viewfull=1#post472016
(9:38:38 PM) Isei: ..how does sea drake have synergy with wayfarer?
(9:38:47 PM) Isei: farhom seer is already so mcuh better at returning lands
(9:39:11 PM) pi4meterftw: I dunno, people are so bad at being objective
(9:39:12 PM) pi4meterftw: like
(9:39:18 PM) pi4meterftw: I remember one time it was like:
(9:39:22 PM) pi4meterftw: daze returns a land: loss of tempo
(9:39:27 PM) pi4meterftw: then a paragraph later
(9:39:36 PM) pi4meterftw: flying quirion ranger piece of shit returns a land: synergy with wayfarer
(9:40:22 PM) Isei: yeah
(9:40:32 PM) Isei: how long have you not had kotwo in your list?
(9:41:09 PM) pi4meterftw: like
(9:41:15 PM) pi4meterftw: hm...
(9:41:27 PM) pi4meterftw: maybe 1 year?
(9:41:30 PM) pi4meterftw: quite roughly
(9:41:33 PM) Isei: yeah.
(9:41:36 PM) Isei: that's what I thought
(9:41:49 PM) pi4meterftw: dr. ice caps was like
(9:41:50 PM) pi4meterftw: well
(9:41:53 PM) pi4meterftw: the OP still has it
(9:41:55 PM) pi4meterftw: and it was last updated
(9:41:57 PM) pi4meterftw: in May!
(9:42:00 PM) pi4meterftw: or w/e
(9:42:03 PM) Isei: yeah
(9:42:07 PM) pi4meterftw: yeah, cause we only update the list
(9:42:15 PM) pi4meterftw: the silly thing is
(9:42:21 PM) pi4meterftw: he can't not have read the forum
(9:42:24 PM) pi4meterftw: without knowing that he didn't read it
(9:42:28 PM) pi4meterftw: unless he's like clinically retarded
(9:42:33 PM) pi4meterftw: so he wrote what he did
(9:42:42 PM) pi4meterftw: while knowing that he didn't actually read the thread


EDIT: Oh yeah, also, you're a complete idiot if you're looking at lists that got 3rd in a 35 man tournament for "awesome" deck ideas.

I'm tired of your bullshit. Bye. -zilla

[evilone]

Alright. I am brand new to this site as a poster, though I have been reading around here for years. I've read the first 20 or so and last 20 or so pages of this thread, and I'm confused. I believe this to be a solid deck, and I'm confused because there is such an extraordinary difference in between the opinions of various people versus the creators of this deck. I hope this deck is truly optimized, because it seems like a lot of suggestions are shut down and ridiculed, with belittling explanations and a rude tone. I don't understand how this is supposed to help make the deck the best it can be, which is the point of the source, right?

With that said, I'm going to Gen-Con at the beginning of August, and I need a deck to play. I was playing reanimator and I don't like what the deck has evolved into without tutor, because I think what made that combo deck strong was its resiliency. Anyways, I've been browsing the established deck forum, and stumbled upon the crazy beast that is this thread. Honestly, it is hard to find insight when so much of it is just banter, posturing, and internet egos, and so I know most of the people who actually know what you are doing don't care, but essentially, why should I play this deck? (I'm not saying its bad, don't flame, maybe?)

TLDR: Convince me to play UWT.

[Isei]

Evilone:

There is absolutely no way you read as much of this thread as you say you did. Otherwise, you would have read this:



It is not our job to convince other people of this deck's supremacy. In fact, quite the opposite: I'm sure most people in this thread would be perfectly fine to continue doing well in tournaments and have no one else pick up the deck. What you need to do is get your head out of.... the sky, and realize this basic fact:

YOU NEED TO TEST A DECK YOURSELF BEFORE BEING ABLE TO COMMENT AT ALL ON IT.


Yeah, posted on page 78.

Here's the simple way to put this: if you need someone to tell you why a deck is good, if you can't figure it out on your own, then you're just trying to find an easy way to win at whatever convention you're going to. If you actually plan on doing well, you need to figure out what the hell you're doing on your own, rather than ask someone to spoonfeed you the answers since you can't be bothered to put the time and effort into figuring it out yourself. And here's a newsflash: you won't ever do well by doing that.

Do the damn work, and test the decks you're thinking about.

[evilone]

Honestly, I can tell you that I have read that, and it is your choice not to believe me. I've read as much as I say I have, and I'm not claiming I've memorized it, and I don't want spoonfed answers. I understand its not your job to convince people of the deck's supremacy, but it seems to be one of the more skill intensive decks in the format, and I guess its difficult to find all of the nuggets of useful information in this thread when so much of it is just people being aggressive. I plan to test the deck, along with others, but I was simply wondering if someone might respectfully post back with some tips on starting out with the deck. I'm not a master of this game, and I think few people in the world can claim to be. Since a lot of the card choices in the deck are unconventional (but in no way poor,) I was merely hoping for some advice. Clearly, the people who are regular posters on this thread, as you said on your quote, don't want to help people who hope to learn the deck, and would rather just be rude. I guess my post was not worded very well, as I understand why the deck is good, and have watched some of the videos. I'm going to start testing this today or tomorrow, but I don't think that matters to this thread much, as clearly the superiority complex is through the roof.

[Isei]

Asking a question that is more specific, such as, "When do you fetch on your upkeep with Wayfarer?" is far more likely to get you an answer than "Zomg this deck look good how do i play?" No one who knows what they're doing in this thread has the time to type up a 25-page comprehensive guide for any idiot looking to pick up the deck. Ask intelligent questions, and you may find yourself getting an intelligent response. If you would like someone to play the deck against you, so you can see it from the other side of the table, I may be available. Try contacting me.

[sclabman]

Alright. I am brand new to this site as a poster, though I have been reading around here for years. I've read the first 20 or so and last 20 or so pages of this thread, and I'm confused. I believe this to be a solid deck, and I'm confused because there is such an extraordinary difference in between the opinions of various people versus the creators of this deck. I hope this deck is truly optimized, because it seems like a lot of suggestions are shut down and ridiculed, with belittling explanations and a rude tone. I don't understand how this is supposed to help make the deck the best it can be, which is the point of the source, right?

With that said, I'm going to Gen-Con at the beginning of August, and I need a deck to play. I was playing reanimator and I don't like what the deck has evolved into without tutor, because I think what made that combo deck strong was its resiliency. Anyways, I've been browsing the established deck forum, and stumbled upon the crazy beast that is this thread. Honestly, it is hard to find insight when so much of it is just banter, posturing, and internet egos, and so I know most of the people who actually know what you are doing don't care, but essentially, why should I play this deck? (I'm not saying its bad, don't flame, maybe?)

TLDR: Convince me to play UWT.

Really the controversy and stupidity is people arguing about one or two card choices, and then lots and lots and lots and lots of trolling. Quite skilled trolls, who are trolling other trolls, who in turn feed the former trolls, which regurgitate and re-feed the remnants to the latter trolls. It's quite counterproductive to the discussion of the deck, which really is fun to play.

I can't convince you to play it, you should test it out yourself. One perk though is that it's both a beatdown deck and a control deck and can switch roles on the fly. You never really lose any matchup outright, and by playing the deck you get a better grasp on the game in general (in my experience).

Just give it a shot on MWS and if it floats your boat, go for it. It's definitely not my top choice of decks, but it's refreshing to play it and have people go "What does that do again?" and have them get all shocked at you playing a Morph card in a non-Dragon Stompy deck.

[stuckpixel]

@ evilone - You aren't going to find a ton of people who are going to go out of their way to convince you to play this deck. I play the deck because it seems to have the tools to beat just about anything, and there's a lot of nuance to it.

I came from playing merfolk, which for the most part, was pretty straightforward. Drop vial/dudes, bash face, hold counters for 'must counter' situations, etc. Made a couple T8s with it. Got boring.

UW Tempo is not a boring deck. There are so many interactions between cards and little tricks here and there (like cracking a wasteland, keeping priority and activating wayfarer while you are down one land to fetch another waste).

The only thing I can really say is, play some games with it. The maindeck looks.. shall we say, unconventional, but it works. And it works very well.

[menace13]

UWT is a fun and rewarding deck to play,I haven't played many games with it, but the few i have felt good. A few reasons to play the deck is the versatility in control/beatdown(Stoneforge+Vial).
It gets access to white's defensive removal while using a full counter suite. Wayfarer is not something i want to see if i am playing more than 2 colors or manlands. Serra,Grunt and Stoneforge are fully capable of racing anything and MoM is a bitch with some gangsta ass mobb'd up flavor text.

[Sims]

Asking a question that is more specific, such as, "When do you fetch on your upkeep with Wayfarer?" is far more likely to get you an answer than "Zomg this deck look good how do i play?" No one who knows what they're doing in this thread has the time to type up a 25-page comprehensive guide for any idiot looking to pick up the deck. Ask intelligent questions, and you may find yourself getting an intelligent response. If you would like someone to play the deck against you, so you can see it from the other side of the table, I may be available. Try contacting me.

This is why no one takes any of this threads supporters, or the thread itself, seriously. You just blatantly called someone who is asking questions and showing interest in this deck an idiot. Are you proud of yourself?

You are not going to foster any new interest in the deck, or this format, with this type of attitude. Legacy players have always had a reputation for being elitsts and snobs and it's posts like this that have garnered that reputation. You don't want to help people? Fine. That's your right. But do yourself, the deck that you are trying to improve and promote, and everyone who reads these forums and comes looking for help or is looking to get into legacy a favor and not post anything at all, because crap like this doesn't help anyone.

[Kudd]

This is why no one takes any of this threads supporters, or the thread itself, seriously. You just blatantly called someone who is asking questions and showing interest in this deck an idiot. Are you proud of yourself?

I am pretty sure that even though he called that dude an idiot, he still offered help to him. A little tough love never hurt anyone. This thread is like the military: They break you down, call you scum and an idiot. Then you get some help to become better than you are. We just don't get the cool uniforms.

[Forbiddian]

The thing is that almost everyone who's played the deck can testify that the deck is optimized or very nearly optimized. There's not much that needs to be said, so most experienced players hardly talk about the deck or the card choices. It's all explained in the OP. When we do pop in, it's just to post a tournament result.

So instead of decent players yammering away on bad suggestions, there are dozens and dozens of posters with absolutely zero experience filling the forums with their asinine demands:

If you can't take an hour to play the deck, why do you expect us to take an hour explaining to you why you should play the deck? Likewise, if you can't figure out that UWT has card advantage, you are so horrible at this game that you might as well just play Type 2 Vampires.

But then when it's pointed out how completely selfish and/or stupid their post is, they inevitably complain about the elitism in Legacy and particularly this thread. "Oh, those UWT guys are so elitist, they actually expect us to have played the deck before butting in with our suggestions."


I don't even think it's a hard demand. By the way, on every single one of my posts, there's a link to the videos that I've made that go somewhere toward explaining how to play UWT.

[stuckpixel]

This is why no one takes any of this threads supporters, or the thread itself, seriously. You just blatantly called someone who is asking questions and showing interest in this deck an idiot. Are you proud of yourself?

You are not going to foster any new interest in the deck, or this format, with this type of attitude. Legacy players have always had a reputation for being elitsts and snobs and it's posts like this that have garnered that reputation. You don't want to help people? Fine. That's your right. But do yourself, the deck that you are trying to improve and promote, and everyone who reads these forums and comes looking for help or is looking to get into legacy a favor and not post anything at all, because crap like this doesn't help anyone.

Frankly, anyone interested in the deck will have read through the thread, and probably at least proxied the deck up or gave it a whirl in magic workstation. This thread gets a ton of people wandering in, making suggestions that they have clearly not tried, let alone actually trying the current 'stock' deck.

If you have questions, ask them. Someone coming in here and telling us to convince them to play our deck is silly and lazy. If you need to be convinced, test with it. Give it a whirl. See if it fits your playstyle and has good matchups against what you are anticipating. Coming in here and telling us to convince you is like walking into a library and telling the librarian they need to convince you to read.

[Sims]

The point was not so much that you need to take an hour to explain something to someone, it was more than you can find more polite and less abrasive ways of saying "playtest the deck yourself" than saying "Do the damn work." There are better ways of saying "I don't have the time to give an in depth explanation, check the opening post and playtest the deck, i'll be happy to answer specific questions" instead of "No one who knows what they're doing in this thread has the time to type up a 25-page comprehensive guide for any idiot looking to pick up the deck."

There is a large difference between two, and I think it would help the image of the people representing the deck, the site and forums, and the community if newer players weren't immediately hit with "what the fuck, this again? we've heard this over 9000 times before. read the fucking thread, noob."

[Nihil Credo]

Where is the fun in that? We need to keep the shock value up.
No, we don't need to. If you can't tell the difference between being straightforward and being a dick, chances are you're the latter.

Thread back to Magic now. If you wish to further discuss these matters, start a thread in Community.

[Tinefol]

Finally failed a tournament, going a horrible 1-2-1. Won again BGW Fish, draw with MonoB blossom fae, and lost to BGW Survival (couldn't draw because game2 went into turns with a winning position for me ) and Merfolk (a horrible player as well).

It seemed my opponents had nuts all the time and I just hold blanks.

[stuckpixel]

Finally failed a tournament, going a horrible 1-1-2. Won again BGW Fish, draw with MonoB blossom fae, and lost to BGW Survival (couldn't draw because game2 went into turns with a winning position for me ) and Merfolk (a horrible player as well).

It seemed my opponents had nuts all the time and I just hold blanks.

Yeah. It happens to everyone eventually. Don't sweat it - at least you didn't go 0-4. =/

[Ryoku]

So, what do people think of cutting the Spell Pierces from the mainboard? They're bad in our worse matchups, even if they are good against Aether Vial decks and landstill. Possible replacements include the 4th Daze, Spell Snare, or some number of Stoneforge (and possibly other equipment?).

[pi4meterftwprime]

So, what do people think of cutting the Spell Pierces from the mainboard? They're bad in our worse matchups, even if they are good against Aether Vial decks and landstill. Possible replacements include the 4th Daze, Spell Snare, or some number of Stoneforge (and possibly other equipment?).

Hi, this is pi4meterftw and I'm still banned. ~NC

I noticed you implied that your goal is to improve our poor matchups. In fact, you should be attempting to improve matchups nearest to 50%. I guess that's a reasonably "poor" matchup, but I had the impression you were thinking about things more like 30-40%.

You should aim to improve matchups near 50% because nearness to 50% corresponds to sensitivity to adjustments. This is because matches are played best 2/3. Imagine, for instance, that our current game win % is 0, and we are trying to see what a 10% adjustment of win % would do. So at 0% game wins, our match win is also 0%.

However, at 10% game wins, our match win is:

WW+LWW+WLW=0.01+2*0.009=2.8*0.01=0.028=2.8%.

For a total of a 2.8% match increase. Anybody would agree 0% is an extremely poor matchup, and yet the 10% game win was severely reduced in translating to match wins.

However, at 50%, let's do the same calculation. At 50%, the % to win is obviously 50% for the entire match.

However, for 50% games, let's change that to 60% games, and then the match win % is:

0.36+0.8*0.36=1.8*0.36=64.8. Observe that this 14.8% difference is not only greater than 2.8%, it's even greater than 10%. One can intuit the results I just showed by understanding that the playing of an entire match pushes game win % towards the extremes of 0 or 100%. For most values in the range of UWT's performance, the push is about 8 or 9 %. So if you find your game win % is about 70%, you can be confident in winning about 80% of the matches.

If you're interested in seeing how this really works at all levels, you should just take a derivative of the win % formula. Let X be the win % for a game, so that the match win % is:

x^2+2(1-x)x^2=-2x^3+3x^2.

Then, one can easily see that the derivative of this wrt x is -6x^2+6x=6x(1-x)

An easy computation shows that this is maximized at 50%=0.5. If you're not familiar with this kind of a polynomial always having that property, remember from high school just to take the derivative and set it equal to 0, to verify for yourself.



Now to consider the main point of your post, spell pierces were hotly debated between Matt and I for a little while, with him advocating and me saying it's bad, but now even I think it's good. Spell pierce prevents the random "oops I just lost" situations that UWT faces as its main roadblock to victory. Such situations come from dreadnought/stifle, library, natural order, survival, storm combo, counterbalance, chalice, and probably a few more I haven't mentioned.

You should learn to play through these threats, because it's still relatively easy to win through them, but when they resolve, you face a real possibility of just losing right out. It's also not bad against like any deck besides goblins. I think you need to develop the rest of your argument more before I can respond.

Note for the astute: the "push" mentioned in my derivation is NOT the same quantity as the quantity of interest, which is the sensitivity of match win % to game win %, in local neighborhoods of a given value. The "push" is optimized somewhere around 70-80% (I forget where) while the sensitivity is optimized at 50%, in fact.

Note for the mathematically inexperienced: the reason I computed the derivative of the match win % wrt game win % is that this is the true sensitivity. The earlier computation I did with actual numbers was motivation, but it is the integral of sensitivity over a given interval (like 10%, from 50 to 60%) that gives you the actual match win % if you care to see if for an actual change in match win %. I guess if you wish, you can intuit the reasoning in leibniz notation, as d(match win %)/d(game win %), and you can tell yourself that it's sort of like a fraction.

Another thing to note is that this computation gives a reason why you should be interested in playing entire matches. If you are playing any deck with an above 50% win %, you should be interested in playing 2/3, not 1/1. This gives UWT an extreme advantage over slower decks touting the same win %s. For, if such a deck exists, it would have anywhere between 5-10% less of a match win % just for being slow.

[rayaj]

I've been doing some more test draws recently and I really like grunt to come off the top, I'm running the 2 sphinx 2 vial list currently. If I want to main the third grunt where would the best place to make for it be? Its just so good in a lot of matchups, unless I have no yard its usually a welcome creature.

[Jonathan Alexander]

The issue with Grunt is basically the same as with Æther Vial: you rarely want to see multiples. Of course there are matchups where it really shines, but those in general are more easy ones. Against Dredge you don't always want Grunt 'cause it's slow. Against New Horizons Grunt is the shit, but that's an easy matchup anyway. Of course there are other decks like Canadian or Zoo (but only without Lavamancer, and even then Grunt isn't exactly incredible, though), but you still don't to draw like three Grunts in one game. Drawing a second one can at least sometimes be good, but seeing three Grunts is awful. I'd much rather play the third Vial, but that might be because I tend to never see any of them at all.

[stuckpixel]

@Ryoko

I don't think the deck wants more stoneforge. We only have 2 equipment for him to fetch at the moment - and if we don't have anything for him to go grab, he's a 1/2 for 2 mana.

I actually love the spell pierces main. Online, I'm actually playing 2x FoW, 4x Spell Pierce (until I get my last two FoWs anyways) - and rarely have I had a situation where I was unhappy to have one in my hand. Most people simply aren't programmed yet to see U up and expect to need 2 additional mana to get their non-creature through.

4th daze isn't worth it - again, dimishing returns. Daze is fantastic early, but if you see two in a game, chance are at least one of them is in the mid-late game, where they are practically worthless (except for bouncing a land for wayfarer potentially). 3 has felt like a good number for me, I don't think I'd want to mess with that.

Spell Snare is an certain worth thinking about - but you have to look at what that's going to counter vs what spell pierce is going to counter and try to determine what is the better call. I've countered FoWs, J:TMS, swords, lightning bolt, etc with Spell Pierce. Spell snare is going to counter goyf, QPM, counterbalance, and a few other pieces, but I think on the whole it will be less useful (especially since our deck is built to handle creatures pretty easily)

[Kudd]

Hi, this is pi4meterftw and I'm still banned. ~NC

What a great way to start the morning at work. Thank you NC, I had a good laugh.

Just here to post some results from last night.

4 rounds

Round 1: vs Dream Halls
1.1: Lost because I had no idea what he was playing. I thought at first he was playing Reanimator because he used Lim-dul's vault. Didn't counter properly.
1.2: Side board to Canonist = win. He couldn't combo and I win.
1.3: Didn't find any side board hate, but had some counterspell action. However, he played FoW and Daze, which I did not see the First 2 games. I need to learn how to counterspell properly. I punted by not floating a mana to prevent getting dazed back.

0-1

Round 2: vs RGW Junk/persist combo/budget crap

nuff said, I won in 15 minutes.

1-1

Round 3: vs Lands

3.1 Had a wayfarer online, but ran out of wastelands to stop all the mazes. He used intuition 3 times, and I could only counter 2 of them. Then crucible came out. OH!, and Ghost Quarter to destroy my non-basic lands. Yea, you can go get a non-basic to replace it but we only have 3.... He got it.
3.2 I was more conservative with my wastes and hit the Tabernacle and the mazes. Had average to good draws and I just did what UW tempo does. win.
3.3 Ran out of time. Surprise, lands wastes time.

1-1-1

Round 4: vs. BW Aggro

4.1 Mother of runes + Serra Avenger stomped when his Tombstalker and nighthawk hit. Sinkhole was easy to play through with an active wayfarer early to mid game. Win.
4.2 Apparently he was flooded. I have to agree, he ended the game with 8 lands in play and 3 in his hand. I asked him why he didn't mull, he said, he had a 2 land starting hand and proceeded to draw only lands the rest of the game.

2-1-1

Overall, I should have been more attentive to my first match, and I probably would have won. Other than that I got lucky, had good draws and good plays, and not losing to Lands is fine I guess. I would prefer to smash their face for forcing me to watch them figure out whether or not they want to dredge life, or draw for 50 freakin minutes.

[Ryoku]

I've been testing Spell Snare in the Spell Pierce slot, and it isn't doing badly. The only thing I've found that it can't really counter that pierces could is Deed against 4c Landstill. Against zoo, your spell pierces almost never countered their removal in the first place, at least against good players. Now you have a hard counter vs. Library and Helix, at least, along with Goyf and QPM when you have a Jitte on board. Oh, and Jitte, for the versions that run it.

[Kudd]

I've been testing Spell Snare in the Spell Pierce slot, and it isn't doing badly. The only thing I've found that it can't really counter that pierces could is Deed against 4c Landstill. Against zoo, your spell pierces almost never countered their removal in the first place, at least against good players. Now you have a hard counter vs. Library and Helix, at least, along with Goyf and QPM when you have a Jitte on board. Oh, and Jitte, for the versions that run it.

There is another event tomorrow. I think that I am going to try spell snare in the spell pierce slot. One of the main reasons are those that you named. On Thursdays the meta is lots of Zoo and such. I think it will be a better choice overall. I will keep ya'll posted with the results of how this 'meta change' did.

[Forbiddian]

Spell Snare is worse against everything except Zoo.

That might be worth it, ymmv, but Spell Pierce also nabs a bunch of good shit like Intuition, Fact, Opponent's Counterspells, Planeswalkers, combo pieces from every combo deck, Natural Order, Crucible, Humility, Wrath, etc. etc. I could make a massive list. And many times stopping an opponent's Brainstorm is as important as anything else that they might cast. The only target it misses that you'd want to hit is Qasali Pridemage.

There'd have to be a TON of Zoo before I wrote off the two best anti-combo/anti-control cards into Spell Snares.



Also lol@justifying it as a hard counter against Helix. You mention that, but you don't mention having a counter to Bolt/Chain/Fireblast? Spell Snare is better against Zoo, but you're obviously stretching.

[Tinefol]

I also think its better against Survival, since it nabs Goyf, Qasali, Survival, and SFM. The pierce only works with Survival (and occasionally equipment and STP), but they tend to play it safe anyway, with mana back up.

[kremenchugskiy]

Played another 2 tournaments.

1) 3-1-1
Lost 0-2 to UGR Wizards (Game 1 he had a vial, a couple a Lavamancers with SSS and Patron Wizard back up, Game 2 I kept 2-lander with BS, 1st fetch resolved, 2nd was stifled and I didn't see a 2nd land or vial for several turns, should have mulliganed).
Won 2-1 BGW Fish (quite easy)
Won 2-0 BW Pox (he made horrible mistakes, and first game I recovered from LD, second I raced 2 Bitterblossoms)
Won 2-0 UR Dreadstill (ruined his manabase, Dreadnought was killed by Wing Shards x 3)
Draw 1-1 with GWrb Survival (first game he was short on mana, but landed Sur and had a Vial, I had about 2 turns to race him, but failed, 2 nd I landed 2 Meddling Mages (Sur and Vial) wit Mom protection, also landed a Wheel, then it was easy, 3rd I was 1 turn from victory).

2) 3-0
Won 2-0 Mono-R Goblins (easy, SA+Jitte houses him, even that Game1 I had to FoW Lackey and Game 2 he surprised me with Anarchy).
Won 2-0 GWb Survival (he made suboptimal plays, Game 1 I had to FoW Turn 1 vial, than he was short on lands, Game 2 I had a mediocre hand, but stabilized in 3 life with 2 SA+3 Moms (ET saved me, as I tutored for Aura to get rid of SoLS that would have killed me)).
Won 2-0 Mono-G Survival (Game 1 I FoW 2 Natural Orders, than overhelmed him with card advantage from 2 FS, Game 2 I landed 2 MM (Sur and Witness), Moms stopped his agression (Tarmos and Finkses), after that Seers did their job).

[jazzykat]

Played another 2 tournaments.

1) 3-1-1
Lost 0-2 to UGR Wizards (Game 1 he had a vial, a couple a Lavamancers with SSS and Patron Wizard back up, Game 2 I kept 2-lander with BS,

Is there any way to get this wizards list?

[kremenchugskiy]

Something like

4 Lavamacer
4 SSS
4 Tarmo
4 Patron Wizard
4 Vial
4 Stifle
4 Bolt
4 FoW (?)
4 Spell Snare (?)
4 BS
2-3 Voidmage Prodigy

Maybe some Ponders and Cursecatchers instead of FoW and SS

17-18 Lands (same to UGR TRSHLD)

[ykpon]

Dazes (obv :>) instead of FoW's and a couple of Jittes instead of the 4th Patron and the 4th Snare.

[evilone]

Sorry for my lazy original posts in this thread. After just one match, I'm hooked on this deck. I've been agressively trading to build this deck, as in my meta (Seattle), players tend to like playing decks that aren't zoo and don't have deed in them. We have many weekly events here, and I plan on playing in 1-2 events a week with this deck once I finish building it, and look forward to posting my results. I'm wondering if there are options regarding what I see as 1 flex slot in the deck, where I've been running 1 vexing sphinx. I haven't been thrilled by sphinx, as it is often very awkward with the wrong hand, and often needs to be sacced early to avoid a blowout if it gets exiled.

Evilone

[Ryoku]

There are a couple things you could try running in that slot. One possible option is Knight of the White Orchid, which was run in the original list. It's great against goblins, but you already have a ridiculously good matchup there. Tinefol has been running 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, which wrecks any deck that can't deal with it immediately. Keep playing with the Sphinx though.. often keeping it around for one upkeep and drawing 2 cards on the next is insane enough. Worst case scenario, it's blue, so you can pitch it to Force.

[menace13]

I think tinefol is on to something with jace. The deck draws a lot of cards: Wayfarer draws a land,Stoneforge draws equips and seer just draws. Getting to 4 lands out is not hard, although it takes sometime while Wastelands go to work.

[colo]

After 5 or 6 weeks sans Magic, I finally got to play again yesterday in our local weekly wednesday tournament. I beat URB Fairies 2-0, an UWR Jace2.0 Control list 1-0, UR Dreadstill 2-0, and accepted an ID in the last round (Punishing Threshold). I was particularly happy with Vexing Sphinx yesterday, as it comfortably survives Firespout, which sees a lot of play in our meta these days and hurts poor Serra Avenger quite badly.

Are there any significant developments going on with UWT, now that Combo and Reanimator aren't the beasts they used to be any more?

[Ryoku]

Yeah, 4c Landstill being around may hurt us a little. Deed is a beating, but if you practice the matchup enough, you should be able to survive it. Also, with the likely resurgence of Landstill, Zoo may morph into builds containing maindeck Gaddock Teeg, which will be good for us, since our deck is not scared of it at all. Anything to slow down zoo is beneficial.

[Tinefol]

Went 2-0-3 Today. Beat Ichorid 2-1, BGW Fish 2-0, draw with New Horizons, BGW Survival, Zoo. What the hell with all these draws :(
Well, apparently I've lacked the fast beats after slowly sealing control of the game. The opponents were able to StP Avenger, or get rid of jitte via Qasal, which turns our clock into nothing. I'm yet to win a match against BGW Survival. They have so many threats from so many angles that winning game1 is next to impossible. I was only able to win a game on a back up of Devout Witness.

Kor Haven is good. For these of you who are looking for something to try in a flex slot, go for it. I've dropped Jace and Kor Haven seems to work better. At least I'm using it (via Wayfarer) way more often than just drawing into a singleton.

[Plague Sliver]

Went 2-0-3 Today. Beat Ichorid 2-1, BGW Fish 2-0, draw with New Horizons, BGW Survival, Zoo. What the hell with all these draws :(
Well, apparently I've lacked the fast beats after slowly sealing control of the game. The opponents were able to StP Avenger, or get rid of jitte via Qasal, which turns our clock into nothing. I'm yet to win a match against BGW Survival. They have so many threats from so many angles that winning game1 is next to impossible. I was only able to win a game on a back up of Devout Witness.

Kor Haven is good. For these of you who are looking for something to try in a flex slot, go for it. I've dropped Jace and Kor Haven seems to work better. At least I'm using it (via Wayfarer) way more often than just drawing into a singleton.

How did Jace TMS work out for you in your matchups?

[Tinefol]

I've described that already a couple of pages back. It was good when I casted it, it pitched to FoW or was shuffled away with Brainstorm when I couldn't, but most often I simply didn't ever draw into it (as it was a singleton).

[mercc]

Well, as stated. How does this deck evolve after the banning of ANT(which i myself played) and Reanimator. From the results posted in this thread this deck appear to have problems with other aggro such as zoo.

The only thing I can think of is rhox war monk, now you might say that it's the wrong color :) but it's a good beater, you know, evolving?

[Ryoku]

This is incorrect, mercc. The metagame appears to be shifting to a slower format, one in which zoo slows down as well by possibly playing maindeck Teeg, since it won't need to compete with extremely fast combo anymore. Thus, if Zoo and other decks are slower, UW Tempo will theoretically become stronger.

[FredMaster]

Hi guys. I just came back from a small local tournament (~10 players) which I won 4-0. Actually it was 3-0-1 cus I prizesplitted with my last opponent, but I won the game for the extra booster against him. So technically a flawless tourny.

Decklist:
// Lands
4 [REW] Wasteland
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [B] Tundra
1 [GUR] Island
2 [GUR] Plains

// Creatures
3 [TSP] Fathom Seer
4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
4 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [CHP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
3 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
1 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt

2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle

1 Aura of Silence
1 Devout Witness
1 Meddling Mage

3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Wing Shards

Round 1:
I'm up against The Gate with Contamination and some extra Inquisition of Kozileks. Game 1 is pretty long and my Jace, the Mindsculptor faces a Contamination, a Bitterblossom and a critter. He (my opponent) ends up loosing to his own Bitterblossom though. Game 2 is a draw (due to time).
It looked like another win for me.

Round 2:
Dredge.
G1 Lost.
G2 Find a bunch of hate and win (I played terrrible here, though).
G3 See G2.

Round 3:
BGW Rock. Game one is really long again, but I've been using Wayfarer since roughly turn 2 and he's kinda stuck on a bunch of basics.
Mother of Runes stalls the shit outta him.
I even won game two in a fairly fast fashion (alliteration). He has to mulligan otp and I get a Meddling Mage (Deed) and a Wayfarer out which are lethal after a short time.

Round 4:
Reanimator. Lost game 1 due to an absolute stupid keep from my side. The diversity of my hate wins me games 2 & 3 though. I like.

I think I've developed a pretty nice game with the deck, since my last attendance. I might give this deck a shot at a big event (~100 players) next week. We'll see.

So far, Fred

[Nelis]

Only 10 people at our local tournament. 3 Wins, 1 Draw, 2 Losses. I played absolutely terrible I was exhausted and that's when I play worse than a retarded 2 year old on crack.

2-1 vs Dream Halls Combo. A lucky topdecked Wing Shards took care of his Progenitus after he used a Force of Will to counter my Daze the previous turn. He could've just payed 1 mana. Lucky so.
1-2 Vs Merfolk (16 lords). Very bad choices on my part were reason for my demise but he's also a better player.
2-1 vs Dredge. I had a turn 2 Jotun Grunt game 1 which gave me the win. Game 3 I was able to land a Wheel of Sun And Moon which he didnt sibeboarded for. I still played that 3rd game badly because I gave him a turn which wasn't needed at all.
1-1 Mono Black discard. Terrible plays from the both of us. Didn't expect Ensnaring Bridge at all game 2 so he won that one. Last game was a draw.
1-2 Mono black with a splash of green for Pernicious deed (no goyfs). Lost game 2 to Distopia and game 3 to a Nethervoid. Didnt sideboard any enchantment hate.That's how bad I played today.
2-0 Pikula. She just started playing so I won this because of her inexperienced choices.

List:

Creature [20]
4 Fathom Seer
2 Jötun Grunt
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Weathered Wayfarer

Instant [18]
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifact [5]
3 AEther Vial
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

Land [17]
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra (I only have 3, didn't want to borrow a 4th one because I wanted to keep my deck choice a secret.)
3 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats

Sideboard [15]
1 Aura of Silence
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
2 Kor Firewalker ( I knew Aggro Burn would be played so I wanted to try these.)
3 Wing Shards
1 Chill
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thorn of Amethyst

I really would like to put 1 bounce spell in the main but what can I take out?

[stuckpixel]

If you need to run bounce, drop a spell pierce for an e-truth, curfew or chain of vapor. I still prefer running the vexing sphinx in that slot, but that's where you'd put it if you needed it.

I'd take a look at firewalker and wingshards in your board to make sure they are doing what you need them to do. CoP:Red might be a better option as you can etutor it, and it's hard for red to remove. Wingshards is great, but if your opp knows you run it, it's pretty easy to minimize the impact.

[FredMaster]

I piloted the list I posted above in todays magic league Legacy master to a Top 4 finish.

I've been playing magic for ~10 hours now, so please forgive me that this will be lacking details.

Round1: BYE
Round2: Draw against Lands
Round3: Win against UB Dreadnought+Dark Depths.dec
Round4: Win against TES
Round5: Win against sth. blue i think
Round6: Win against GW Maverick
Round7: ID into Top8

Quarterfinals:
Win against UBG Jacestill...somehow.

Semis:
Loose against Roodmistah and his dirty Schlachtschiffe.

Frowntown.

The list is very good so far. I also like the diversity of my sideboard cards.

[kremenchugskiy]

Played another local FNM tournament. 2-3, unfortunately.

Lost 1-2 to UGR Countertop. G1 he burns all my creatures with Fire/Ice and Flame Slashes and I failed to draw STP; G2 I dominate with Wayfarer, and some creatures, playing very conservative to ensure that I won't lose to Sulfur Elemental; G3 he has SDT and only 3 basics (other being wasted), but he has a Lavamacer, that really slows me down. Finally we came to the moment, when he has 1 life, Tarmo and Lavamancer (1 card in GY), and tapped out. I have Wayfarer and Mom, and plenty of life. I gave protection from green to Wayfarer and attacked to trade with Lavamancer, than dropped anothe Wayfarer. Next turn he looks at three cards. The only thing that would save him is Fire/Ice or Sulfur Elemental AND Volcanic Island (no fetches, he is at 1 life). Unfortunately, he finds a land and a Fire. I have several turns to find STP or any creature, but draw only useless Forces.

Won 2-1 to UWgb Landstill. G1 I have a very slow start, he has a couple of Pernicious Deeds, and turn 6 he resolves Jace TMS, 2 turns after I sccop, as he gets another PerDeed online. G2 and G3 were won by Wayfarer, which was protected from Edicts and STPs. Sure, if you manage to keep WW on the table for 3 turns, you win the game with Landstill.

Won 2-0 to GWb Survival. Not the best player, but anyway, the match is really horrible. G1 he has a Stoneforge Mystic resolved, and a Jitte in hand, but fetches for SoFI. Would it have been SoLS, I would lose. G2 I sword his BoP, and, without Vial, he is very short on land, I land 2 Meddling Mages (on Survival and on Vial) with a Mom protection, and that's the game.

Lost 0-1 to GWb Survival. G1 is very long. I didn't let him to land a Survival, but my 2 Moms were killed (one by STP, another by Orzhoff Pontiff). At the end he dominates me with SoLS and Jitte on Tarmo. G2 I mull to 5, he mulls to 6, he resolves 2 Survivals and Vial (which I broke with Aura), but is short on lands, I get Wheel of Sun and Moon, but, unfortunately, he has a Krosan Grip for it. While staying at 3 lands, he throws new and new Tarmos on the table, I sword them, and that's the time. I would have lost that game.

Lost 0-1 to BGW Fish. G1 he starts with Vial, and after several turns has Serra, Tarmo, Confidant, Mom and Epochrasite (the latter was the most problem). I have some creatures too, and to the moment whem I managed to get rid of Mom, it was too late. G2 was almost the same, except that he land Pithing Needle for Moms (strange for me, but anyway, when he did it, I has 2 Moms and he had 1). I have more creatures, and dominate the table, but on the last turn he finds a blocker. I needed 1 more attack to win.

[Nelis]

If you need to run bounce, drop a spell pierce for an e-truth, curfew or chain of vapor. I still prefer running the vexing sphinx in that slot, but that's where you'd put it if you needed it.

I'd take a look at firewalker and wingshards in your board to make sure they are doing what you need them to do. CoP:Red might be a better option as you can etutor it, and it's hard for red to remove. Wingshards is great, but if your opp knows you run it, it's pretty easy to minimize the impact.

How many Vexing Sfinx do you run exeactly?

Firewalker was just a last minute decision, normally I don't take burn into account at all.

I wanted to try out Wing Shards but I'll change them back into Curfew because Iona wil call white (which happened yesterday). And I found 3 mana for Wingshards too much.At least with Curfew you can play other cards as well if there's 3 mana on the board.

[stuckpixel]

How many Vexing Sfinx do you run exeactly?

Firewalker was just a last minute decision, normally I don't take burn into account at all.

I wanted to try out Wing Shards but I'll change them back into Curfew because Iona wil call white (which happened yesterday). And I found 3 mana for Wingshards too much.At least with Curfew you can play other cards as well if there's 3 mana on the board.

I just run the singleton vexing sphinx. I could see going with a J:TMS in that slot easily. I had toyed with the idea of running an Elspeth in the slot - and if the mood strikes I might (I don't presently own any J:TMS) - but I like keeping the blue count up as well.

Worst case, vexing sphinx eats a removal spell, pitches to FoW, or cycles for 1UU. Best case he beats down when you need it, and draws you a bunch more cards.

I'm myself not entirely sold on curfew - but it does the trick if you're seeing a lot of reanimator or show and tell trickiness.

[kremenchugskiy]

What all of you think about running in SB 1-2 Brittle Effigy? It is tutorable, colourless removal.

[rayaj]

I don't like it, not in here. It costs 4 to activate and is suceptible to QPM and grip. The deck really operates optimally on 2-3 land so effigy is a bit of a stretch even more so than JtMS beacuse it doesn't do much before you use it.

[stuckpixel]

I don't mind it as an experimental card out of the board. The only time it's going to be relevant though is late game. It's nice to be able to tutor it up with e-tutors but have to pay 5 mana to exile a dude is rough. Does work vs iona though which is nice (and not as narrow an answer as curfew)

I think ultimately it's not going to be good enough, but by all means test with it if you think it would work for you. I see brittle effigy going into a standard mono-grey/brown deck, or as a singleton in a counter-thopter deck.

[kremenchugskiy]

Played another local tournament, 2-2

Lost 0:1 with GWb Survival. G1 he resolved Sur, and overwhelmed me with advantage. G2 I had a good start (STP on BoP, waste his land), but a slow beating, thus he recovered with some defence, and I didn't have enough time to finish the game.

Won 2:0 with Mono-U Merfolk. Quite easy, Fathom Seer prevents islandwalk, etc.

Won 2:0 with BW Fish. The main problem were opposite Moms and explosive starts (Ritual into Hypnotic Specter).

Lost 1:2 with UWBG Landstill. G1 I resolve and keep for several turns Wayfarer, that's game. G2 was very long, with 2 Jaces TMS countered, 3 Mishra's Factories wasted, and all my creatures removed. I scoop to have enough time to win G3. Unfrotunately, he catches my 3rd turn Wasteland with Teferi's Responce, I give him enough lands on table (and beat only to 11 HP) and eventually he lands Jace TMS, that's the game.

[stuckpixel]

I've had some initial difficulties with survival as well - but I attribute that more to unfamiliarity with the matchup than anything else. The build I played against was the Vengevine + Basking Rootwalla build, which was pretty sick.

4 color landstill can be a very tricky matchup - I think it's still winnable but it's one of the tougher once since we're pretty much the aggro in that matchup. I definitely need to playtest that matchup more to get a better idea of what we need to do.

[kremenchugskiy]

I found 4 colour Landstil a rather winnable match, but you have to keep them short on lands, so if you keep Wayfarer in the early game on the table for at least 2-3 turns, you are likely to win. If not, they will overwhelm you with advantage (lot of removal, Deeds, EEs, not to mention Jame TMS).

Survival is a very, very difficult match. I am talking about a particular build (GWb), that is popular here in Russia (4 Vial, 4 Survival, 3-4 Stoneforges (with Jitte and both Swords), 4 Qasali, some Witnesses, 4 Swords (+3 Pathes after siding), maindeck Orzhov Pontiff, Shriekmaw, Fleshbag Maradeur, BGH, Skryb Ranger and Mangara, 4 Birds, 4 Tarmos, etc). Other Survival builds are a lot easier.

[menace13]

Is Bant Survival any easier than RokSur?

[stuckpixel]

So, in my extra playtime I've been getting now that I have the deck built online, it seems like emrakul in general is a pretty huge problem for us. Obviously the ideal answer is to counter the spell that's putting him into play - but I'm beginning to wonder if we don't want to be running a more specific board option for him, something like journey to nowhere/oblivion ring that can be tutored up with etutor.

Karakas would also be an answer i suppose, but I don't know if we'd have room to run one.

[Ryoku]

So, what do people think about Submerges in the sideboard? They're pretty good against Zoo in my experience, and fairly good against New Horizons, as well. Instant speed free removal in response to a fetchland. Has anyone tested it?

[kremenchugskiy]

Is Bant Survival any easier than RokSur?

Yes, sure. It runs less removal (Orzhov Pontiff, for example, rapes UW Tempo), and, as far as I know, less equips.

The main problem with GWb Sur is 4 Vial + 4 Stoneforge Mystics + 3 Equips + non-target black removal, aside traditional things like 4 Survival, 4 Qasali Pridemages and some Witnesses.

[menace13]

Yes, sure. It runs less removal (Orzhov Pontiff, for example, rapes UW Tempo), and, as far as I know, less equips.

The main problem with GWb Sur is 4 Vial + 4 Stoneforge Mystics + 3 Equips + non-target black removal, aside traditional things like 4 Survival, 4 Qasali Pridemages and some Witnesses.

Right i could see how all those Mystics tutoring and playing SoFI/LS would be problematic. I haven't tested these MUs and my thought was that Iona+Retainers is also bad and Brainstorm helps them find key parts faster than non blue counterparts.

[five]

Went 2-1 today at Samurai Comics in Phoenix. I am still running the list with 3 Vials and one Vexing Sphinx. Today, my sideboard looked like this:
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Aura of Silence
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
2 Condemn
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Jotun Grunt

I only sideboarded 1 game, so I really didn't get to test it. Here are my results:

Crossfire u/w/r (Grim Monolith + Power Artifact + Banefire) 2-0
Game 2: - 4 Swords, - 1 Jitte, - 1 SFM, + 3 Aura of Silence, + 2 E Tutor, +1 Pithing Needle

Suicide Black (1-0-1)
Game 2: No board

Merfolk mono u (1-2)
Game 1: my seven are decent, but only land is Wasteland and no Vial. My six is Wayfare, 4 lands and Daze (on the draw). My five have no land. My 4 have no land, but I keep 2 Brainstorm, FoW, and Daze. I FoWed a T2 Vial and never drew a land. His draw was pretty fast, so I probably would have lost with the 6/7 I should have kept.

Game 2: No sideboard. I win!

Game 3: No sideboard. Very close game, but I lose to a Sovereign who made 2 creatures unblockable with help of Reejerey's trigger.

At lest I got 2nd place with halfway decent tie breakers (in a 3 round tournament :tongue:).

Please comment on/critique my sideboarding and mulliganing. Thanks!

[aajko]

Why haven't you boarded in at least the Ghostly Prison and 2 ETutor against Merfolk?
If I would play your sideboard I would board smth like:

+ 1 Ghostly Prison
+ 2 ETutor
+ 2 Condemn

- 4 Wayfarer (they can act with only one Land + Vial so he's near to useless in this MU)
- 1 Grunt (he's big, yeah, but they play only few non-permanent cards)

And why no sideboarding against Suicide? Do you have a list of his Deck?

[Ryoku]

Ghostly Prison doesn't do enough vs. Merfolk. They have a bunch of mana sitting around anyway, assuming they start with Vial. The only time you might need it is against 16 Lord.

Here's the sideboard I'm currently running:

2 Aura of Silence
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Submerge


The single Sword is to make Stoneforge a lot better in the UW Control matchup, basically making it a must-counter. With correct play, Submerge is extremely good vs. Zoo and Bant decks.

[Forbiddian]

Been a while since I made a post, so hope this one is a good one!


Jeff and I have been doing work on the Zoo matchup. I've always said that it's ~50%, and people have reported pretty wild numbers from "It's extremely difficult matchup" to "It's an easy matchup."

After doing more research, turns out everyone's right. Zoo builds aren't always the same, and the differences between builds are night and day. There are Zoo builds out there that UWT cannot beat (like it's 80%+ in favor of Zoo), AND there are Zoo builds that UWT cannot lose to (it's 80%+ in favor of UWT). Good news for UWT players, Zoo decks shifting for the new metagame and generally the shifts are very good for us.


We played a number of games and made some pretty important discoveries. Here are the factors (roughly in order of importance), then I'll follow with example decks.

Sylvan Library is the single biggest factor (duh). We don't have an answer for it after it hits and it requires a very good string of luck to beat a resolved copy (like they don't see much removal and we happen to have an aggressive hand). Sylvanless Zoo is very easy to beat (like 70%+), and Zoo with 3 Sylvans is very uphill (like 30%-). Yes, it really makes that much of a difference. Of course, they have to play it correctly, and recognize that they should cast it when the only out is Force of Will. Also, no matter what, they should pay 8 life (obviously if this kills them, then don't). With good play they should win most every game that they even draw the Sylvan Library, though this doesn't always manifest itself in tournaments. Most Zoo players, especially early-round Zoo players are terrible at this game/on autopilot and don't understand how to use Sylvan.

Fewer Grim Lavamancer builds are easier to beat. Grim counters Mother of Runes well and does other cool tricks, he's pretty dangerous.

4 Path builds are much easier to beat than 3 and 2 path versions. We're actually faster than Zoo if they have to path early.

Builds with Kird Ape and/or Loam Lion are much easier to beat. These cards are terrible and are easily walled by every large creature in our deck and (critically) Fathom Seer. Steppe Lynx is not walled by anything that we have and it's actually faster/more damaging, and it has an amazing amount of staying power. It does more damage early game, doesn't get walled easily midgame, and does a disgusting amount of damage late game, no idea why people are cutting it, but they are.

Builds withOUT Chain Lightning are easier. Chain Lightning is actually their best removal spell (it's better than bolt, even) because it pumps Goyf up. It's the only possible sorcery either of us could have, so putting it in the bin is a strict +1/+1 for Goyf. If they don't have it, Goyf will never eat Sorcery.

Builds with more 3 drops are easier to beat, since they need to stretch for that 3-4 land and Wayfarer becomes quite good.

Builds with Price of Progress are easier to beat.

Builds with Gaddock Teeg are easier to beat.

It's pretty rare, so I'm mentioning it last: Figure of Destiny is a shit card.



Here are the three most recent typical Zoo decks just to highlight the massive variation.

This deck (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36963) we beat (60%). It has no Sylvan Library, though it has most every other strong card in force, so it has a fighting chance.

This deck (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36924) is a bye (80%+). It has no library, no chain, only 3 grims, 5 kird apes/steppe lynxes, 4 path to exile, and Price of Progress to boot. The sideboard has null rod subbing in for their two worst cards (not sure what those are), but I board out a Jitte and a Stoneforge Mystic anyway. This deck is is terrible.

This deck (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36906) beats us hard (30%) It's a two-library/chain build without Kird Apes or Loam Lions. He's running FoD instead (which isn't good, though probably better than Kird Ape) and 4 paths, but four grims, no price of progress, and a very scary sideboard round this one off. Pithing Needle is typically not a very strong card, but it neatly replaces 3 of the 4 Path to Exiles as a way to handle early mother of runes/weathered wayfarer, except Peedle gives us a 1/1 instead of a land (and it will turn extra copies of the chosen creature into Eager Cadet the whole game), AND Pithing Needle is a strong trump card late-game.


The new sideboard suggestion (so far pretty much untested, but the theory works out very well) is to use Submerge in the sideboard. Submerge hits Zoo on its Tempo, which is strong against all Zoo builds, but particularly strong against Zoo decks trying to get free time to stick a Sylvan Library. A submerge surprise can really change the math on how they plan their Sylvan Library out to handle current and incoming threats.

[Piceli89]

Have you tried against Rubin Zoo, which is slower, doesn't pack Sylvan Library, but has Knight of the Reliquary together with Punishing Fire+Grove of the Burnwillows? It seems that UW tempo is not favored there even if it reachs the mid-late game. Burn recursion to bypass Mother of Runes is bad.

For reference: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36912
I don't know if all those builds are packing Teeg maindeck, here in Italy it's to beat the brainless Natural Order decks as well as improving against control matchups.

[five]

Why haven't you boarded in at least the Ghostly Prison and 2 ETutor against Merfolk?
If I would play your sideboard I would board smth like:

+ 1 Ghostly Prison
+ 2 ETutor
+ 2 Condemn

- 4 Wayfarer (they can act with only one Land + Vial so he's near to useless in this MU)
- 1 Grunt (he's big, yeah, but they play only few non-permanent cards)

And why no sideboarding against Suicide? Do you have a list of his Deck?

I almost sideboarded exactly as you mentioned against Merfolk. I just didn't like the idea of cutting Wayfarer. He did end up being useful against opposing Mutavaults as well. Ghostly Prison doesn't seem too useful against Merfolk (as previously mentioned). If I could board again, I may try -1 Wayfarer and -1 Grunt for +2 Condemn. Condemn wouldn't have dealt with Soverign though...

Not much I had to side against Suicide. Maybe graveyard hate for Bloodghast and Tombstalker? I don't have a list, but other cards he played were Confidant, Hymn, Sinkhole, Thoughtseize, Smother, Nantuko Shade, Jitte, Bojuka Bog, and Vampire Nighthawk. The standard 60 seemed okay against this list anyway. Mom was a house!

[Forbiddian]

Have you tried against Rubin Zoo, which is slower, doesn't pack Sylvan Library, but has Knight of the Reliquary together with Punishing Fire+Grove of the Burnwillows? It seems that UW tempo is not favored there even if it reachs the mid-late game. Burn recursion to bypass Mother of Runes is bad.

For reference: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36912
I don't know if all those builds are packing Teeg maindeck, here in Italy it's to beat the brainless Natural Order decks as well as improving against control matchups.

I glossed over "Rubin Zoo" because I determined that it's awful. I have a number of points of how much shit it is:

1) 1RR for 2 damage, and your opponent gains ~2 life (and at least 1 life) isn't good in any metagame right now, even if you've got the combo going. The flagship combo is shit, and basically strictly worse than Grim Lavamancer (did I mention that he cut Grim Lavamancer for Grove combo?)

2) Grove of the Burnwillows is a weak choice. Giving your opponent life is bad, particularly in the control or combo matchups. I mean, this should be fucking obvious, but there are other problems: An important factor is that it doesn't pump Nacatl. Neither do two other extremely questionable decisions: Stirring Wildwood and Karakous. With only 8 fetchlands, 3 non-basic plains, and no basic plains it's a pretty tall order to build up Nacatl.

3) The deck has zero sorceries, enchantments, or artifacts, it's entirely relient on its opponent to pump Goyf. This is an extremely poor move, especially against Control and Combo who can generally avoid binning the more exotic card types until the game is decided.

4) This deck is slow as fuck and its only anti-combo board element is a 2-of Aven Mindcensor. Combo is weakener, but it's not about to lose to this slow piece of shit.


But yeah, this deck *DID* 1-2 punch a 30 person tournament, so I should give it some credit. Let's look at the rest of the "top" 8:

#1: Rubin Zoo
#2: Rubin Zoo
#3: Standard-Legal Control (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36913)
#4: Standard-Legal Control (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36914)
#5: Mono Black Dark Depths (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36915)
#6: Doomsday FT (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36916)
#7: Elfball ftw! (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36917)
#8: Zoo with Sensei's Divining Top and Dark Confidant (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36918)

Worst top 8 I've ever seen.

[Piceli89]

I glossed over "Rubin Zoo" because I determined that it's awful. I have a number of points of how much shit it is:
I think you should not consider a deck merely by its list, and see it in action piloted by a fairly good player,before. We also fell in this mistake of judging an entire archetype, and a card (say: Jace) just staring at it. You have to consider it in the context, and in the metagame features where it gets to roll.



1) 1RR for 2 damage, and your opponent gains ~2 life (and at least 1 life) isn't good in any metagame right now, even if you've got the combo going. The flagship combo is shit, and basically strictly worse than Grim Lavamancer (did I mention that he cut Grim Lavamancer for Grove combo?)


That deck, despites being called Zoo, is indeed a red variant of Rock, and that was obvious also from the number of lands (23 against the usual 19-20-21). I think you should have seen how that deck performed against Control decks, with Punishing Fire always coming back, and against weenie decks, as well destroying fast Zoos. It doesn't want to power up the traditional Zoo early-game features (the ones you mentioned),it wants to control the gamestate to reach (very easily) the mid-game where their beats coupled with the "shitty" combo triumphs over pretty much any creature-based deck. I saw it with my eyes. Also,not wasting all your gas into really shitty cards like Lynx is very suited for these times when control is having a strong comeback.
About the life: seriously? You can still, in the dead cases, bring it back and shoot the opponent with a -1. Its purpose it to create virtual ard advantage (or board advantage) getting rid of all the weenies and the small-sized creatures in Goblins, Merfolks, and other crap like White-weenie-likes, and such. It can also be used after a combat step to kill the last toughness points of blockers,and in the late-game is a nice weapon that recurs constantly against Counterbalance to foil the cmcs (forcing them to keep a 2 on top) and can get tid of the Hierarchs which win the combat phase in Bant giving Exalted shit.
1 life is just an issue when you're smashing dudes and creating a stream of a weenie-killing machine which puts the opponent into difficult situations. Also, 1 life is a liability when you have such giant fatties like Knight and Thoctar: in fact, it packs Stp rather than ptE, too, becuase giving a land is bad if you're trying to act as the control role even if you play green dudes and burn.



2) Grove of the Burnwillows is a weak choice. Giving your opponent life is bad, particularly in the control or combo matchups. I mean, this should be fucking obvious, but there are other problems: An important factor is that it doesn't pump Nacatl. Neither do two other extremely questionable decisions: Stirring Wildwood and Karakous. With only 8 fetchlands, 3 non-basic plains, and no basic plains it's a pretty tall order to build up Nacatl.


Stirring Wildwood gives a better game against Landstill, allowing the Zoo deck to sit under Standstill, and it's surely not calculated by the blue-control player. It's also immune to the majority of mass removal (Firespout) regular Zoo seems to suffer lately. And that player smashed 2 "standard" controls with it, while he was laughing at their Wraths and their EEs. Karakas is a tech which obviously is being tutored up by Knight, either way the deck would not have solutions to Emrakul. I repeat, consider these choices related to a mid-late game approach, where the deck wants to arrive.



3) The deck has zero sorceries, enchantments, or artifacts, it's entirely relient on its opponent to pump Goyf. This is an extremely poor move, especially against Control and Combo who can generally avoid binning the more exotic card types until the game is decided.


So, Canadian Threshold is bad-built because it doesn't have artifacts and enchantments, too. I recalled that also regular Zoo lists didn't run Art/ench., perhaps a couple of Sylvan Library which offer a great perentage of pumping Goyf (2/60 and being countered or destroyed) and, randomly, a Jitte and some Stoneforger toolbox.
Who gives a shit about Combo? One doesn't decide to play Goyf because of combo, it's because it's the better creature in Legacy in size proportions,and easily feeds on opponent's graveyards if you need the "exotic" types. Against control, Goyf is just another dork that will be bigger than nacatls due to the usual presence of EEs and Spouts in the graveyard, so it's better than them if it topdecked, and it's the one that gives the least turns to survive.
Also, Tarmogoyfs are the solution to enemy Tarmogoyfs.And these are exalted, too.




4) This deck is slow as fuck and its only anti-combo board element is a 2-of Aven Mindcensor. Combo is weakener, but it's not about to lose to this slow piece of shit.

Did you miss the 3 Gaddocks maindeck? Because I lost twice to them on 2nd turn , and I was actually playing combo. Perhaps it was my fault because I fizzled twice short of 1 mana for playing Wipe Away and not Chain of Vapor to be used in the DD piles, but it still has some hate.
Mindcensor is a sweet tech that's not usually expected from a Zoo player, and it can shut down also Natural Order, which this build is weak againt. Reb can be randomly tedious on a cantrip. Relic stops Ill-Gotten Gains which is usually the most-used storm engine against aggro decks.





But yeah, this deck *DID* 1-2 punch a 30 person tournament, so I should give it some credit. Let's look at the rest of the "top" 8:

#1: Rubin Zoo
#2: Rubin Zoo
#3: Standard-Legal Control (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36913)
#4: Standard-Legal Control (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36914)
#5: Mono Black Dark Depths (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36915)
#6: Doomsday FT (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36916)
#7: Elfball ftw! (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36917)
#8: Zoo with Sensei's Divining Top and Dark Confidant (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=36918)


Worst top 8 I've ever seen.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. I was the one in the 6th place. I guess you consider that a top8 sucks if it doesn't contain any tier1. Sorry, I guess in your meta is all about Merfolks, regular Zoos and Bant, or New Horizons. To be honest, those decks were at the tournament, but they were smashed by these tier2s.
If you judge it the "worst top8" because you think that those are all decks with suboptimal choices, the guy coming second, the shitty Zoo player, has been putting up results since like 6 months with that list. The Baneslayer controls are also pouring in different occasions, and incredibly are also doing well. I will admit that I'm not the biggest fan of that either, but it seems to work, so I respect it. Oh, it has also made some top8s at the Bazar of Moxen in France last year, which had like 400 players, just to let you not think that it's because that tournament was full of weak players.
The MonoBlack, well..it sometimes happens.
The Doomsday player? Oh, that's a terrible deck, it doesn't do "Ritual, cabal ritual, LED, IT-->Ad Nauseam" as the american Pros seen in the SCG 5k used to do with their "complicated" Saito-copycat builds.
7th and 8th place,I won't judge them, didn't see them in action.


However, the objections I've made above came only after having seen the Rubin Zoo smash heads here in there with the very cards you criticized, and I explained my points after this, but honestly everyone could arrive to them just with a little more careful considerations and looking.
Again, do not judge a list just because it packs non-conventional cards or strange solutions, because in that case even UW tempo would be smashed hard. Fathom Seer is a terribly situational card, for example. It would not work anywhere else, but in there it seems to function well.

It's all about the context (metagame, synergies) and the philosophy of the build.

[Forbiddian]

Oh, so you lost to a deck, and now it's worth testing against? Whatever, I CBFd testing every tier 3 deck in Italy.

Combo definitely should have gotten there against this deck. Sucks to your luck that he drew his 3-of and you couldn't get there against it, even though it's just a Gaddock Teeg, which like barely affects Doomsday Tendrils at all. I don't know what to tell you, the deck changes Zoo's passable/salvageable combo matchup into total garbage in exchange for the ability to beat midrange tier 2 decks. Players shouldn't be able to do that.

[Piceli89]

Oh, so you lost to a deck, and now it's worth testing against? Whatever, I CBFd testing every tier 3 deck in Italy.

Combo definitely should have gotten there against this deck. Sucks to your luck that he drew his 3-of and you couldn't get there against it, even though it's just a Gaddock Teeg, which like barely affects Doomsday Tendrils at all. I don't know what to tell you, the deck changes Zoo's passable/salvageable combo matchup into total garbage in exchange for the ability to beat midrange tier 2 decks. Players shouldn't be able to do that.

Enough mature to answer some reasonable points I made to your first, untested critics, I see.
Landstil and the mirrol is a tier2 deck, they told me. UW tempo at best is a tier2 deck.
Well, I'll just let go and keep on ignoring this topic, I bet I'm not the first and there's a reason for that.

[rayaj]

In another 27 person tournament rubin zoo placed 8th two places behind vial zombies. With that I've said all I have to say about the subject.

Now back to what this thread is about:

What do you think about oust? I know its slow(sorcery speed blahblahblah) but I like that it can be played on a creature without it having to attack like condemn does, and the life gain isn't really an issue for us.

[five]

Went 2-1-1 today today at Gamer's Inn, in Mesa AZ. Same board as my previous post.

u/w/g Counter Top (2-0)
-4 Swords, + 3 Aura, and +1 E Tutor

Pro Bant (2-1)
no board

u/r Control (1-2)
game 2 (play) -4 Mom, + 3 E Tutor and +1 Thorn of Amethyst.
game 3 (draw) no board. I should have probably went - 2 E Tutor and - 1 Thorn for +3 Aura of Silence because he showed me EE game 2. Game 3 he locked me out with Shackles, to which I had no answer. I think the initial siding out of Mom was correct because I don't think he has spot removal (just EE and Firespout), and he is light on creatures (Magus of the Moon, V-Clique, and Trinket Mage). I didn't want to side out Swords because Magus + Jace TMS beat me game 1.

Cut to top 2. ID with the u/r Control deck I just played. We each get 5 booster packs. Not bad for an 8 man tourney.

[rayaj]

It doesn't look like I'll get a fourth tundra for the GP next weekend, should I run another plains, island or utility land instead?

[Forbiddian]

In another 27 person tournament rubin zoo placed 8th two places behind vial zombies. With that I've said all I have to say about the subject.

Ahahahaah, yeah, exactly.

[five]

It doesn't look like I'll get a fourth tundra for the GP next weekend, should I run another plains, island or utility land instead?

Maybe another fetch land? I thought about running Hallowed Fountain when I was in your same boat. It is really bad with Fathom Seer and Daze though. I just threw in another Windswept Heath instead. It worked fine, but I only tested it for a short while before picking up Tundra #4.

[Anusien]

Somehow all your Zoo testing was against builds with mostly sub-optimal choices (no Chain, no Library which are both staples in the deck) and you chose random Zoo builds off DeckCheck instead of, you know, decks that are placing in 200+ person SCGs. I don't think you should throw stones.

[Forbiddian]

Somehow all your Zoo testing was against builds with mostly sub-optimal choices (no Chain, no Library which are both staples in the deck) and you chose random Zoo builds off DeckCheck instead of, you know, decks that are placing in 200+ person SCGs. I don't think you should throw stones.

Try reading, that's not at all what I said or what was done. We tested a variety of builds including SCGs list, and I came up with some models to help determine whether or not we'd beat a particular Zoo build. The recent builds were chosen to highlight the large variation in Zoo builds that currently see play.

[Anusien]

Try reading, that's not at all what I said or what was done. We tested a variety of builds including SCGs list, and I came up with some models to help determine whether or not we'd beat a particular Zoo build. The recent builds were chosen to highlight the large variation in Zoo builds that currently see play.
And that's why all your initial data says you were going 50% against Zoo instead of 30% right? Like sure, the majority don't run Sylvan Library (although it's rather prevalent in lists overall), but the majority DO run Chain Lightning.

Regarding Punishing Fire, it's actually awesome against control decks because they can only beat it with Wasteland and Counterbalance going long; it'll be 8 or more damage over a long game instead of just 3. And if a deck wins a tournament, you can't really judge it by the rest of the Top 8. There's no way to know if it won because the tournament was scrubby or on its own merits. If Mystical Tutor Reanimator was easily winning these scrubby tournaments, you wouldn't turn around and say, "Oh Reanimator sucks."

In other words, this recent discovery that the Zoo decks you initially tested with were not like the rest of the format should make you less confident to leap to conclusions, not more. Challenge your assumptions. It makes you a better deckbuilder.

[Ryoku]

Challenge your assumptions. It makes you a better deckbuilder.

Perhaps you should take your own advice here. You're assuming that the data is so flawed that it must have no bearing on real results whatsoever? You must be right, zoo must beat us 200% of the time.

Or, perhaps you should take the initiative, and put your own time into testing, and give us your results. Either way, please do not waste the time of people who have put far more work into this deck than you.

However, the fact remains that, with the direction zoo is shifting, it is becoming more of a positive matchup. They are beginning to maindeck Price of Progress more. As stated previously by Forbiddian, we can play around this easily. Also, more and more Teegs are getting maindecked. Please, in the future, try and back up your posts with a bit more substance, rather than attempt to preach about how to tell if a deck is bad or not.

[Anusien]

Perhaps you should take your own advice here. You're assuming that the data is so flawed that it must have no bearing on real results whatsoever? You must be right, zoo must beat us 200% of the time.

Or, perhaps you should take the initiative, and put your own time into testing, and give us your results. Either way, please do not waste the time of people who have put far more work into this deck than you.

However, the fact remains that, with the direction zoo is shifting, it is becoming more of a positive matchup. They are beginning to maindeck Price of Progress more. As stated previously by Forbiddian, we can play around this easily. Also, more and more Teegs are getting maindecked. Please, in the future, try and back up your posts with a bit more substance, rather than attempt to preach about how to tell if a deck is bad or not.
There's a ridiculous amount of irony here. I mean, the guys with the most experience ever with the deck said, "Hey, our bad, the Zoo lists we were testing against didn't look like the lists anyone else is testing with; that's why the results varied so much." And you said, "Hey, you shouldn't waste the time of people who have more experience with the deck."

Punishing Fire is actually going to be worse for you than Grim Lavamancer. After all, all but one or two of your creatures dies to the combo. And unlike Lavamancer, he can use it more than once per turn. EOT Punishing Fire your MoM (you tap it), rebuy Punishing Fire. Untap, Fire MoM, bolt your Avenger?

[Forbiddian]

I'm much, much, much, much happier vs. shitty Punishing Fire than strong Grim. Punishing Fire requires a combo and is raped by wastelands, both on any random land to shut down its ridiculous casting requirements, or the combo land.

Only a noname player and noname designer would think that Punishing Fire is better than Grim against UWT.

[rayaj]

How does this look for my board for the GP in columbus?

2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Condemn
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Aura of Silence(Devout Witness if I can find them)
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt

Any suggestions are appreciated, I would like to make room for 2-3 Submerge but I'm not sure what to take out for them. Maybe -2 Condemn +2 Submerge?

[Ryoku]

I'm pretty sure that Submerge is much better than condemn is. I still don't think that Ghostly Prison is needed in any matchup, since you already should win goblins, and it doesn't do enough against Zoo or Merfolk. So, with your sideboard, I'd probably go -1 Prison -2 Condemn +3 Submerge.

[rayaj]

Thats what I was thinking too overall, I'll go ahead and make the changes

[Forbiddian]

Do people still play Goblins?

If so, nice! But yeah, what Ryoko said, and good luck!

[Equinozio]

2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Condemn
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Aura of Silence(Devout Witness if I can find them)
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt


Is Devout Witness that awsome?? I understand the choice cause you can discard lands to disenchant things ant protect it with mom but aura prevents more efficiently I think.

[rayaj]

Aura is really just a one use thing and while witness is subject to removal, it can be used multiple times and can carry a jitte if you need it to.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

It also prevents them from casting artifacts and enchantments in the first place. Witness is a 2-card combo that requires your opponent to have more land than you. Aura is massive virtual card advantage unless your opponent can generate enough mana to play through it, but even then it's slowing effect is powerful enough to give you time to find another. Enchantress and Stax can effectively fight through an active Witness, where an Aura or two is usually game.

Aura's utility is much less in its disenchant effect than in its one-sided hosing effect. In the mean time, against decks with singleton problem cards (Survival, Vial, etc.) you can just pop it for the disenchant and be done. Not considering creatures are much easier to remove than enchantments, I know Tinefol and a couple others like Witness. Could any of you answer the question: under what (real) conditions is Witness ever better than Aura?

[kremenchugskiy]

The reason why Tinefol (myself too) is playing Witness is a metagame. Sure, Aura is better vs Stax-like decks, vs Landstill. But here a version of GWb Survival is quite popular (I described it a couple of pages ago, and this very difficult, if not horrible, match). Witness could be protected with Mom, and Aura could be a subject to Krosan Grip, forcing you to play it as a Disenchant on sorcery speed (unless you have a suberb board position). More, Witness is reusable, and often you face too many targets you want to broke. My conclusion to the moment is to play 2 Witnesses, 1 Aura and 1 Tutor.

[menace13]

How about Soltari Visionary in place of Witness?
Has Shadow, does not need mana cost or a card in hand to work. Downside harder to hardcast and does nothing to Moat.

Edit: Artifacts too. Overall the Witness would be better, but if you are looking to beat Survival, Soltari might be better.

[Forbiddian]

It also prevents them from casting artifacts and enchantments in the first place. Witness is a 2-card combo that requires your opponent to have more land than you.

Haven't tested Witness, but it's definitely not a two-card combo.

Almost all the time, the worst card in your hand is worse than the best artifact/enchantment that your opponent already invested mana into. Aura can only be used to take out their single extremely problematic enchantment or artifact. Witness does this also, but unloads a fuckton of collateral damage on everything else in their deck.


The stall ability is nice, but I've been fairly underwhelmed by it recently. Realistically, all the reasons I used to point out are gone.

Enchantress sucks now. It was a cool pick a long time ago when it autostomped Goblins (thus half the meta), but Zoo actually has a decent Enchantress matchup with Qasali and being about 1-2 turns faster. Even with the lack of Combo, Enchantress is a pretty awful pick. And at any rate, Witness is probably better than Aura vs. Enchantress.

Stax runs Metalworker, which turns Aura into Seal of Cleansing. Yes, they can play Metalworker before you can play Aura of Silence.

Storm Combo has really fallen by the wayside. ANT is effectively dead, and so are the storm combo decks running 14+ 0 and 1 mana artifacts.

Counterbalance decks are also not as prevalent.


I'm not sure if it's worth running (honestly, I haven't had time to test that much recently), but I see Witness as having a lot of upside.

[kremenchugskiy]

How about Soltari Visionary in place of Witness?
Has Shadow, does not need mana cost or a card in hand to work. Downside harder to hardcast and does nothing to Moat.

Edit: Artifacts too. Overall the Witness would be better, but if you are looking to beat Survival, Soltari might be better.

To beat Survival I am talking about, you need to destroy artifacts too, namely vials and equips. Opposite Stoneforge Mystic (and they run 4 copies) could be a real problem for UW Tempo.

[rayaj]

Played in the GP and went 1-3-1 before dropping, some play errors on my fault but I enjoyed playing with the deck and 18 land may be where I go to.

Match 1 - Merfolk

G1 - I go fetch tundra, wayfarer. He played an unhinged island and my heart soared, I put him on merfolk before I saw him cast the vial. Beat him through two vials, swords gave two LoA the axe and force kept another one from hitting the table. Pretty textbook game, serra avenger and mother of runes were good.

G2 - Countered both of his vials but he played a coralhelm which caught a swords to the face. Just payed myself down too much and took too much damage and didn't find enough gas to win, oh well.

G3 - Countered his vials again and had some damage come my way again on the back of a coralhelm. Took too much damage and didn't see an avenger when I needed it to come off top. I topped a couple wayfarers to block his lord at the end, the second of which got countered by a hard casted force. Can't believe I lost this one in the end, but still a good match.

0-1-0

Match 2 - Dragon Stompy

G1 - I fetch tundra, wayfarer, pass. He played ancient tomb, chrome mox imprinting simian spirit guide and tried to magus of the moon me which gets dazed. I put him on dragon stompy pretty easy and had a spell pierce in hand so I saved that for the eventual chalice at two. Mom blocked a gathan raiders a couple times, I got an avenger out and wasted his ancient tomb so his only land was city of traitors before blood moon hit and I got to use some mountains.

G2 - More of the same, he played an akroma face down which later died to a swords. Another pretty boring game and I take it pretty easily with a little countermagic and some good creature drops.

1-1-0

Match 3 - GW Maverick

G1 - Pretty boring, he played noble and I thought he was playing bant so I thought he'd get out some nonbasics for the wasteland I was holding and the second I drew but nothing of the sort happened and I saw too much land and not enough business. Off to game two.

G2 - Pretty good one-lander and I fetch tundra, play wayfarer. He wastes me and a turn later swords takes out wayfarer. I see no more land and there's my second loss of the day. Didn't really know what he was playing even at the end otherwise I would have grabbed a plains first and gone for the basic route that game.

1-2-0

Match 4 - LED Ichorid

G1 - Won on the back of grunt, avenger mom, pretty boring game and I did some good countering.

G2 - Bad play on my part loses games, I need to practice the Ichorid matchup a little more so I know what to counter. In my defense, he had some pretty good dredges this game.

G3 - Turn 0 leyline was annoying and since it was off to the side I forgot about it and ended up punting the game when I should have been able to take it but I ended up punting it and thought about just dropping then.

1-3-0

Match 4 - Next Level Ichorid

G1 - Won this again, pretty easy, grunt and avenger blah blah blah.

G2 - Lost this one since he did some weird play with playing his dredgers and stuff I guess to block and kill my stuff and mom didn't make an appearance.

G3 - Started this about 30 seconds before time was called so it ended up as a draw.
As an aside, this guy was god awful at playing his deck, drew off of a lot of thnigs when he should have dredged instead and all kinds of other stupid things. I think it was his first time playing the deck but he was bad, the fact that we went to time should attest to that.

1-3-1

I dropped here since I was hungry, didn't really want to play anymore and hadn't gotten to go see Chris Moeller yet. In other news I got my plain white mat signed and doodled on by Moeller and Steve Prescott. Got Prescott to do the moonstone from Augury Adept on it and Moeller made Patagia Viper coming out of it. Now I just need to get some other cool stuff on the left side. Moeller was a really cool guy and was taking cards as payment for alters or other doodles.

[five]

I went 2-0-2 today at Pop Culture Paradise, in Tempe, AZ. Could have easily won my first match if I wasn't retarded. Yep, forgot to Vial in an Avenger after an EoT Brainstorm or Fathom Seer flip. Would have been able to swing in with a Jitte and pick off goblins ftw. An observer pointed out that could have E Tutored for Jitte early on (instead of Ghostly Prison). I usually notice these things. Feel like I regressed a bit today. Oh well.

Still playing the 3 Vial/ 1 Sphinx version. Same board as before, w/ 2 Condemns, a third Grunt, and a random Pithing Needle...

Goblins (mono red) (1-1-1)
Game 2 (draw): -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Daze, + 2 E Tutor, +1 Ghostly Prison
Game 3 (play): I don't think I boarded...

b/r Goblins (2-0)
Game 2 (draw): -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Daze, + 2 E Tutor, +1 Ghostly Prison

Survival Bant (1-1-1)
Game 2 (draw): - 3 Daze, +3 Aura
Game 3 (play): +3 Daze, -3 Aura (maybe should have left Auras in; he road a Jitte to victory).

Merfolk (mono u) (2-0)
Game 2 (draw): -3 Daze, + 2 Condemn, +1 Ghostly prison.

I can't remember if siding out Daze on the draw is the right move with this deck. We keep Daze active for longer with mana denial, etc. It seems okay against a deck like mono u Merfolk though. I really liked Condemn against Merfolk today. It totally saved me from Jitte equipped attackers!

On a side note, I knew I woudln't make top 4 today at 2-0-2, so I actually conceded to my Merfolk opponent (even though I won the match). At the beginning of top 4 there was one person with 10 points, and 4 people with 9 points (including my Merfolk friend). He actually was the odd man out and didn't make the cut at 3-1, which was a bummer.

On a further side note, the person who one won the tournament was also playing u/w Tempo. His deck had KotWO instead of Sphinx, and he played 61 cards to fit in an eqpipment package of 1 Jitte, 1 SoLaS, and 1 SoFI. Dunno how I feel about that, but he had good results today...

Edit: As for Witness vs. Aura, I find that Aura stops EE fairly well. With Aura on the board, they need 5 mana just to set EE to 1 and blow it. I think Witness would be a bit to slow to stop them from EEing our board...

[Tinefol]

After two weeks vacation I'm back and going to play UWT tonight. I'm puzzled to see the lack of activity there, did anybody play the deck at the GP?

[rayaj]

Yeah, I played and didn't do so well. I think I heard a guy using weathered wayfarer at my table but I didn't get to see what he was playing it in. I also met Ryoku there but I didn't find out how he ended up doing. If you look at my post above I did a little rundown of how things went. I need to personally test a lot more against 16 lord girlfolk so I can get the matchup more under control, I like submerge but I think more general removal may have been welcome.

[Tinefol]

Went 3-1 today, beating Food Chain Combo, Aluren, Dragon Stompy and losing to monoG progSur. Also got a bunch of pimp asian stuff for UWT, might post some pics later. I'm still far from what I'm aiming for, but I'm getting there eventually :)

[Forbiddian]

Went 3-1 today, beating Food Chain Combo, Aluren, Dragon Stompy and losing to monoG progSur. Also got a bunch of pimp asian stuff for UWT, might post some pics later. I'm still far from what I'm aiming for, but I'm getting there eventually :)

XD, rock on!

I want a set of Japanese Mother of Runes if you can find any ft.

[Vacrix]

Lol why do people want cards in Jap, I don't understand. I bet you the Japenese are all like: "Fuck this I need to pimp out my deck with American cards."

Also, I'm surprised UWT wasn't too present at GP. What gives?

[Zlatzman]

Can't say I really understand the desire for japanese cards either, I like reading my cards. Anyway, non-foil Japanese Mother of Runes shouldn't be too hard to find, but if you want foil I guess you need to look a bit around.


Slightly on topic:
I might be testing this deck for a local legacy-tournament on the 19th of August, but haven't really decided what deck to run yet. There hasn't been legacy here for about a year, so I have no idea what the meta will look like. Will give you the results if I do decide to run UW Tempo (alternatives are Zoo, Enchantress or UGr Thresh).

[baghdadbob]

Hey guys i'm testing U/W Tempo and looking for some criticism on my build.

Spells
4x Force Of Will
4x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
4x Swords To Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
3x Aether Vial
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword Of Fire And Ice

Creatures
4x Weathered Wayfarer
3x Mother Of Runes
4x Fathom Seer
3x Jotun Grunt
4x Serra Avenger
2x Stone-forge Mystic

Lands
Same as the current build standard except 4x Wasteland.

Some personal preferences I have are....

1) Running S.O.F.I. it has helped me quite a bit against both the zoo match and the merfolk deck, and stops the legend rule from kicking me
in the nuts. Also I beat N/O Bant with a wayfarer with sofi and jitte attached... classic.
2) 3x Grunt he has been a beast in both keeping 'goyf small and really helps me lay the beats down fast. I seem to be playing the beat down
role quite often. Also with 4x Wasteland makes me feel like I'm almost running crucible.
3) 3x Mom. She has been the most often dead card in the deck for me and I run the 4th in the s/b for the zoo match up where she shines.
4) The forth daze hasn't disappointed me yet, and the idea of running 3x makes me feel yucky.
5) The 4th Wasteland. I was running the stock list before with 3x and found myself NEEDING more then 3x especially against landstill decks.

Anyways I'm very impressed with the deck and really enjoy playing it.

[Phoenix Ignition]

After two weeks vacation I'm back and going to play UWT tonight. I'm puzzled to see the lack of activity there, did anybody play the deck at the GP?

I know someone was 4-0-1 with it when I played them. Then they were 4-1-1. I forget his call name on here but we had some good games, I think he said he was banned from responding too much in this thread. I'd like to see the rest of his games, I think he only made one play mistake which wasn't really obvious (blocking my Obstinate Baloth with a Jotun Grunt when he didn't quite know how valuable Grunt would have been to him alive). He said he was friends with Pi4 though, so maybe forbiddian knows something.

[Tinefol]

Went 4-1-1 yesterday, splitting the top4. Been a Tribal day
2-0ed two Merfolks, 2-1 against Goblins, 2-0 against Wildfire, lost to UW fish in a sequence of some screwy topdecks, and drew with TES (he took nearly 30 minutes for 4 turns to go off and kill me game1. He then had Tendrils for 14 on me game2, I took some time to wright that off and we were not able to start game3 due to round timers).

[Nelis]

I played a 35 man tournament yesterday. I went 2-1-2.

Deck:

Creature [20]
4 Fathom Seer
2 Jötun Grunt
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Weathered Wayfarer

Instant [18]
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifact [5]
3 AEther Vial
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

Land [17]
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats

Sideboard [15]
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Aura of Silence
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun And Moon
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Curfew
3 Submerge

R1: 2-0 Burn He got a gameloss because his deck wasn't ready. I won the 2nd game because he started to burn my creatures. An easy win.

R2: 1-1 Landstill. (without standstill) First game I kept an aggro hand and was able to counter his threats afterwards, second game we went in topdeck mode and eventually I lost. I countered his turn 1 Brainstorm with a Spell Pierce but I basically lost because of his turn 3 Crucible of Worlds (recurring Mishra's and fetch dont help) so maybe I should not have used my Spell Pierce on his Brainstorm.

R3: 1-2 TES. He won game one, I won game 2 on hate, Game 3 I kept a 1 land hand (fetch) with Force of Will backup (+ brainstorm), 1 pieces of hate (thorn) and 1 semi hate (wheel of sun and moon) an Enlightened Tutor and one non land, non blue card. I didn't get a 2nd land at all. When I drew a 2nd blue card I decided to play the brainstorm to look for the 3nd land. I didn't find it so eventually he was able to could go off.

R4: 1-2 BGW Death and Taxes. I won game 1 on aggro and counterbackup. I wasn't sure what to sideboard so I lost game 2 and 3 (In retrospect I probably should have gone for graveyard hate). Game 3 I countered his turn 1 Aether Vial and his turn 2 Aether Vial but I wasn't able to counter his topdecked turn 3 Aether Vial, eventually we erached topdeck mode but I couldn't put enough pressure on he was able to do some Flickerwisp and Eternal Witness shenanigans and eventually killed me with an Witness, a Flickerwisp and a Kitchen Finks.

R5: 2-0 Pikula, I beat him fairly easy, Wasteland helped me out here.

In all I think I've been a bit unlucky. I could've won round 3 against TES if I would've drawn that 2nd land on game 3. Maybe I should've used the brainstorm on turn 1 to dig for a 2nd land but I'm not sure if that would've been the right play either. I think I could've won round 4 against D&T with the right sideboard tactics.

[Tinefol]

From what I've see here, you seem to misvalue some things you are doing with the deck. Piercing the brainstorm is VERY rarely the right thing to do. You should save pierce to deal with big thinks, Like Jace, Elspeth, Crucible, especially when you're facing Landstill.

In fact I've found it to be a very comforting match, given you play it right. You shouldn't go for tempo win, unless they're stuck on one land. Always use the vial, if you have it, deploy only one threat at a time, so they are forced to use their Wrath of Gods for it, cast Seer when they're tapped, so you stay ahead on cards. Don't counter any removal, unless you can get card advantage off it (like saving Wayfarer to get 2 lands). Rarely you would go into topdeck mode there, usually when I'm playing against control my hand is 6-7 cards all the time. Like once I mulliganed to 5, then was forced to break two standstills, didn't have a 2nd land up to turn 5 or so, and still convincingly won. You really have all the time you want to recover there, these decks are terribly slow.

Same thing with Aether Vial, especially against non-merfolk decks. Don't ever counter it, unless you're sure they're stuck on one land. What you are telling there, is that you let your opponent to exchange TWO of his useless excess vials for your live counters (you probably FoWed once, so its like 0 cards from him to 3 cards of yours, potentially even more, if you've pitched Seer), no wonder you've got into topdeck mode.

[Nelis]

From what I've see here, you seem to misvalue some things you are doing with the deck. Piercing the brainstorm is VERY rarely the right thing to do. You should save pierce to deal with big thinks, Like Jace, Elspeth, Crucible, especially when you're facing Landstill.

Yeah, this was definitely a mistake.



In fact I've found it to be a very comforting match, given you play it right. You shouldn't go for tempo win, unless they're stuck on one land. Always use the vial, if you have it, deploy only one threat at a time, so they are forced to use their Wrath of Gods for it, cast Seer when they're tapped, so you stay ahead on cards. Don't counter any removal, unless you can get card advantage off it (like saving Wayfarer to get 2 lands). Rarely you would go into topdeck mode there, usually when I'm playing against control my hand is 6-7 cards all the time. Like once I mulliganed to 5, then was forced to break two standstills, didn't have a 2nd land up to turn 5 or so, and still convincingly won. You really have all the time you want to recover there, these decks are terribly slow.

I'll try this approach should I encounter Landstill. I didn't overextend and have been beating him with a wayfarer for quite a few lives but because I had to Swords their Mishra's so his life total stayed high enough. But I guess that if I kept my Spell Pierce for his Crucible I wouldn't be in that situation anyway. The thing is that I didn't see any win condition's apart from his Mishra's so I found it hard to know what to do after sideboarding too. The only other scary thing I encountered (and countered) was a Humility and I saw a few Path o Exile and that was it.


Same thing with Aether Vial, especially against non-merfolk decks. Don't ever counter it, unless you're sure they're stuck on one land. What you are telling there, is that you let your opponent to exchange TWO of his useless excess vials for your live counters (you probably FoWed once, so its like 0 cards from him to 3 cards of yours, potentially even more, if you've pitched Seer), no wonder you've got into topdeck mode.

If I remember correctly one vial was countered by a Daze and one by FOW removing a Seer indeed.

But how am I to know that he has 2 more Vials? It was my experience from game 2 that Aether Vial made it possible for him to win because he was able to Flickerwisp his Eternal Witness all the time and generate card advantage by recurring removal and such. I was able to attack his manabase all 3 games but still lost because of Vial. I don't see why I shouldn't counter his Vial.

What about my game 3 against TES? Do you think I made the right choice by trying to wait to draw a 2nd land or should I indeed have used the Brainstorm on turn one in hope to find land number 2.

[Tinefol]

It is a correct move to board in relics whenever you see Eternal Witness. You're not losing anything, and they get 2/1 for 3 that does nothing.

What you describe is is some 5+ card combo, like they need two vials, multiple Flickerwisps, Witness and some relevant cards in graveyard. And all that can be stopped by a STP and a relic.
You just don't counter vial against D&T, don't bother doing so. Better deal with what they vial in. In the case, you could've used FoW for something else AND drawn two from Seer. In fact, I board FoW and sometimes Pierces out against regular D&T, not sure about green splash, it depends on what they run.
You're never losing to the vial, it just doesn't have P/T on it. If they get 3 vials, its nearly -2.5 cards for them and they can't shuffle it away. You should have the edge over that.

If you're not applying any pressure against combo, the FoW is just as useless as any card in your hand. They're going to sculpt duress/chant and do whatever they want. By any means, your first worry is deploying a threat - waiting is a losing proposition. You should use brainstorm, the odds you hit another blue card are high as well.

[Nelis]

Thanks for the insights.



You just don't counter vial against D&T, don't bother doing so. Better deal with what they vial in. In the case, you could've used FoW for something else AND drawn two from Seer. In fact, I board FoW and sometimes Pierces out against regular D&T, not sure about green splash, it depends on what they run.


I remember seeing: Aether Vial, Vindicate, Flickerwisp, Eternal Witness, Kitchen Finks, Fleshbag Marauder (from SB), Swords to Plowshares, Unearth. And possibly TOP.

[Tinefol]

That's more like Rock + D&T hybrid then, minus the annoying Pernicious Deed. If it runs Unearth, Relics are a must. Perhaps Crypt as well. I think I'd keep at least 3 FoW and would remove the Pierces.

[Forbiddian]

Lol why do people want cards in Jap, I don't understand. I bet you the Japenese are all like: "Fuck this I need to pimp out my deck with American cards."

Also, I'm surprised UWT wasn't too present at GP. What gives?

My mom in real life is the Japanese version.

[Tinefol]

Posted a sloppy 2-2 record yesterday. It all started with a loss against BGW survival (srsly, I haven't won once vs that deck, mission impossible), then I got screwed against goblins, and ended winning against UW Landstill and GW Maverick.

[Plague Sliver]

Forbiddian, are you still compiling win-loss records for those playing the deck?

I'm wondering how the analysis stands today, given the activity over the past few months.

[Forbiddian]

Forbiddian, are you still compiling win-loss records for those playing the deck?

I'm wondering how the analysis stands today, given the activity over the past few months.

It's a lot of work. If school and women die down for me in a bit, I'll probably go back and compile like 3-4 months of performances or something, but I think some are just going to be lost.

It takes me like 2-3 hours to do it. If you're interested, feel free. If the data were in a more readable format, so I just have to put it into excell, I can enter data really fast.

[Tinefol]

Another tournament and I'm 3-1, finishing 5th (no prizes x_X). Won against BGW Survival (FINALLY! I'm actually more excited by this, than disappointed by 5th place), UR Merfolk, Wildfire.dec, lost to BG Train Wreck.

Compiling the results requires a serious effort, because you have to go back and scan through the many pages of this thread.

[Vacrix]

Well Matt was absent at FNM... someone had to play UWT.

I went 2-2.

Match one - Sean w/ Elves
Game 1: We exchange STP for Lord for a while until eventually I land a Serra Avenger that doesn't have to block something bigger than itself. I even get Jitte online. I play Vexing Sphinx. I only have 2 cards left in hand, but I figure I have the win next turn, and play a Grunt. Unfortunately he plays 2 more blockers and I'm SOL as his Progenitals rape me. In short, Sphinx and Angels fly. Grunts do not. Game loss to misplay.
Game 2: I'm on a mulligan to 6, and boarded in 2 Wing Shards. At some point in the game, probably 6 turns in, I'm completely tapped out sitting on 3 Tundra 1 Plains, an active Jitte with counters. I'm also holding Daze and Force w/ Brainstorm. The problem is he has a Vexing Shusher out... So he plays Choke for 2G, but he forgets to crack his fetch. So I Daze, he responds with Fetch, I respond with Force. He can't pay the G for Shusher, bye bye Choke. Then I Brainstorm into STP his Shusher on my turn. Unfortunately, mad card disadvantage for me, but I'm really afraid of NO and I needed the untapped lands to dig with the other Brainstorm.. to get rid of Shusher before he played NO. Unfortunately, I drew some lands, he Grips my Jitte, and then resolves his NO.
0-1

Match two - Gabe w/ PSI
Game 1: My friend is playing my deck. I open without Force and like 3 Mom's, mull to 6, I have a BS and I'm on the play. Keep. Sure enough, he has the turn 1, though it takes a good 10 minutes. I think it was just as satisfying to watch that happen from Matt's point of view for once. :P
Game 2: I open with Pithing Needle on Belcher, followed by a clock, Force, and then Spell Pierce.
Game 3: I Force his Xantid Swarm, and seriously draw the nuts, Thorn, Avenger. Daze + Force + Spell Pierce destroys him.
1-1

Match three - Micheal w/ NotRock
Game 1: You know how sometimes you joke with someone before the match? Well I started with him like that, and this went on for like 10 minutes while he literally died to Wayfarer's and Mom's, the entire time reminding me about how I'm playing fish. Anyway, easy win, every time he plays something I kill it. He's sitting on Basic land for most of the game, just spinning his top.
Game 2: This goes on for a while. In short, 5 STP gets there (Eternal Witness), along with 0 Grunts or fat guys. I misplayed at some point though, and this game probably could have been won.
Game 3: He spins his top, but he can't spin fast enough! He does tons of tricks with Loam + Top, wastes a lot of time, and then dies. I play through EE and Deed.. without ever seeing a Needle.
2-1

Match four - Eric w/ StaxStompy
Game 1: I swords probably a playset of Sui-chi's, get mana screwed by his Ports, he resolves 3Sphere. I try to stablize having played a Vial the turn before, but he lays down, yes, Razormane Masticore steals the game.
Game 2: I mull a 0 lander into a 0 lander into a 1 lander, get Wasted early and then don't see another land until he already has Chalice @ 1, 3Sphere, and Lodestone Golem.

2-2

Hardly an impressive night. I rarely play control. Unfortunately, UWT is too much fun to play. I get too comfortable with it and then take it easy. Also.. 3 month magic breaks do not a good player make.

Also, Vexing Sphinx was MVP in like every matchup.

[Tinefol]

The day of fail.

Started with a bye, then went 0-1-2. Draws with Landstill and Ichorid (who takes forever to think, despite the judge calls), lost to Goblins (some insane series of topdecks out of the empty table).

[rayaj]

Too bad you didn't have those Tividar's Cruscade in the board that night.

[DalkonCledwin]

a UW Tempo deck piloted by Alex Kiracofe made 15th place (out of 125 players) at the StarCityGames.com Legacy Open in Denver, Colorado this Sunday. The list he was playing is as follows:

Lands
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

Creatures
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Fathom Seer
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vexing Sphinx
4 Weathered Wayfarer

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts
3 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Aura of Silence
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Condemn
3 Enlightened Tutor

Source (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-08-22&end_date=2010-08-22&event_type=SCLO&city=Denver)

[five]

a UW Tempo deck piloted by Alex Kiracofe made 15th place (out of 125 players) at the StarCityGames.com Legacy Open in Denver, Colorado this Sunday. The list he was playing is as follows:

Lands
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

Creatures
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Fathom Seer
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Vexing Sphinx
4 Weathered Wayfarer

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts
3 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Aura of Silence
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Condemn
3 Enlightened Tutor

Source (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2010-08-22&end_date=2010-08-22&event_type=SCLO&city=Denver)

Yeah, that was me. I could have placed higher if I didn't punt the match during round 6 against ANT. It was a feature match and should be archived soon. Be sure to watch it so you can have a good laugh (facepalm). I will attempt to write a tournament report of sorts sometime soon. I just finished the 14 hr drive back to Phoenix, so I am exhausted atm. Btw AZ MTG star Adam Prosak finished 3rd with Countertop. I drove up with him and two other friends.

[five]

Sorry to double post. Here is the link to my tournament report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18654-SCG-Open-Denver-15th-place&p=484083)

[Tinefol]

I've posted some comments on your sideboarding, as it looked for me largerly as incorrect.

[sclabman]

I am curious as how this deck is expected to perform as meta-games shift. The weakness to Zoo (though certainly not impossible to overcome) and it's strength to so many other decks seems to imply that it will stick around. What are your thoughts?

[Purgatory]

I am curious as how this deck is expected to perform as meta-games shift. The weakness to Zoo (though certainly not impossible to overcome) and it's strength to so many other decks seems to imply that it will stick around. What are your thoughts?

I just picked it up and plan to take it to a tourney soon, so I hope so.

EDIT: That it will stick around, that is, if it was unclear.

[naurthal]

Just came back from a local tournament.

Round 1 reanimator 2-1
That guy was playing petals, moxes and rituals. first and third games were really easy to win for me, just in second game he had a first turn Iona. He had a lot of nonland mana and he was fetching basics so I have decided to side wayfarers out for gravehate.

Round 2 columbus junk 1-1-1
Game one I have completely blown him away with triple wasteland. Games two and third were much easier for him as he sided explosives and deed in. Luckily for me we went to time, as we have both ran out of gas(junk is very threat light and all that's necessary is to stop it during first turns when he casts seizes, hymns, goyfs and confidants) but he had sensei out and I had nothing, so he would probably win that one.

Round 3 MUD vintage stax(karn) 2-0
First game he said he has a very risky hand. He went ancient tomb, chalice which I FoWed. Turn 3 he finally played second land(ancient tomb again) but turn 5 after i STPed both of his metalworkers, he conceded. Game two was much closer as he had defense grid, crucible with wastelands and mishra. I topdecked jotun grunt and next turn he conceded(I had two wayfarers and mother out). After this we played one game for fun as we were the first one to finish the round and he has really destroyed me with karn + crucible + sphere + tangle wire + metalworker.

Round 4 U/G madness. 0-2
The games weren't even close, he always landed survival turn 2 and I didn't had a FoW. Game one I had no chance against turn 4 playset of vengevines and game two I was stuck on one land.

Top 4
U/G madness, the same guy 1-2.
Exactly same games, except I stole one from him with ghostly prison(awesome card, slowed him a lot) + 2 mothers + 3 avengers + double force of will + brainstorms. Game 3 I resolved both jitte and prison, but he had a grip for both. He didn't even need survival, just killed me with double exalted mongrel.

Overall I went 2-2-1.
And I hate reporter for not pairing me with merfolks(there were three copies of that deck there).

[Tinefol]

Took UWT to a tournament after a long break. Went 3-1. Lost to BGW Survival, won against BG Train Wreck, BGW Pox and Goblins. I love the deck :)

[Mom]

Congratz on the finish! :-)

Just wondering, what were your boarding choices for your particular meta?
My SB's a little outdated and it could use some freshening up (Mostly aggro / aggro control players)

[Tinefol]

Played another tournament, with a disappointing result: went 2-3, lost to Prog survival, Food Chain combo, UR Fiend, won against Zoo and UBR Faeries. The amount of hate was really tremendous, I've seen Sulfur Elementals, Orzhoff Pontifs, Lava Darts everywhere. Also, Zealous Persecution and that white Perish. It seems I have to put down UWT for little awhile.

I run sb of:

4 MM
2 Devout Witness
1 Aura of Silence
1 ET
1 Wheel
1 Crypt
1 Relic
2 Wing Shards
2 Hibernation

[Antonius]

is it possible to build this mono W or would you essentially end up with Death and Taxes?

[Mom]

Ouch, sorry to hear about that. Sulfur elementals really are a giant pain in the @ss :frown:

How have the devout witnesses performed for you? I've thought
about testing them, although I'm not sure in what matchups I would prefer
her over casting an aura of silence.

Also, yes, it would most likely turn into some version of DNT that
runs wayfarers.

[Antonius]

wow, dnt doesn't run wayfarers? that's strange, 'cause I always thought the wayfarer/grunt/wasteland trifecta was one of the best elements of this deck.

[sclabman]

DnT doesn't have Daze/Fathom Seer to bounce lands, increasing the effectiveness of Wayfarer. I was testing out a version with Kor Skyfisher to bounce your lands/Mangara, but you tend to want Vial set at 3 counters with DnT for Mangara and Flickerwisp. I then got distracted by New Horizons and stopped working on the deck.

[Oiolosse]

Yeah, the problem I have in my testing of UW Tempo is the resolved enchantment. Maybe Witness will be of some help here because Bitterblossom *sucks* to play against as does Survival of course.

[Antonius]

run Abolish. It has great synergy with wayfarer.

[Tinefol]

Actually blossom is quite easy to face, even without disenchants. You can overwhelm it with jitte, or race with Avenger + mom. Survival is much trickier. Don't let it hit the board.

[colo]

Took UWT for a ride after a long while again yesterday, beating extended-legal Goblins 2-0, drawing against Goblins proper 1-1 in the extraturns with superior board position and after letting a Grunt die in my upkeep when I did not have to, and beating UW Vengevine Survival 2-0.

I was very happy with how the deck performed.

[Purgatory]

Went 4-1 yesterday, beating BW Deadguy, 3C Goblins, Ichorid and GWB Rock. Lost to the mirror (kinda), he didn't play Weathered Wayfarer, but Spellstutter Sprite instead. Lost in the semi to the same guy 2-1, after he managed a Vial + 3 Avengers draw, with a Mom in play.

Still, I'm happy with how the deck worked out, especially since it was my first tournament with it. Looking forward to bringing it to more events in the future.

Oh, and I played the standard 3 Wasteland, 1 Vexing Sphinx build. I didn't get to cast the Sphinx even once during the whole day though :(

EDIT: Also, I ran this sideboard:

1 Jötun Grunt
4 Submerge
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Aura of Silence
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Thorn of Amethyst

I ended up boarding in all of it at some point, bar the Canonist and the Thorn (since I never played Storm combo). Maybe I should try to fit a couple of condemns somewhere in there...

[Vacrix]

run Abolish. It has great synergy with wayfarer.
Has anyone else tried this? It looks pretty techy with Wayfarer.

[colo]

The problem with it is that you cannot tutor for it. Whilst I really like the card, you'd need to run multiples for it to show up often enough, or dig for it quite frantically. I don't think it's good and/or flexible enough to warrant occupying three to four SB slots.

[Purgatory]

The problem with it is that you cannot tutor for it. Whilst I really like the card, you'd need to run multiples for it to show up often enough, or dig for it quite frantically. I don't think it's good and/or flexible enough to warrant occupying three to four SB slots.

You can tutor for it with Mystical... Oh wait.

In all seriousness, I think the best way to beat Blossom is to overwhelm with Mom + Jitte, and when it comes to Survival, it can't ever be allowed to resolve.

[paK0]

So I just played this deck again and remembered how much fun it is. I played Sphinx in the "flex slot" (I tried different creatures there in the past) and was surprised that it actually pulled its weight. SB was the following:


// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 3 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist

I think I want the second Thorn to be something against aggro (Oust?) but aside from that It feld good. Since it was only a small one I am not gonna write a report, but recap:

2-0 GW aggro (with NO)
Fist game she runs her NO into my SP and second game Wasteland and Swords on Bird leave her with not enough lands to do something.

2-0 UWr Fish
We ran about 50 of the same cards but the decks played a lot different. G1 MoR gave me the edge while G2I grinded a lot of CA in the beginning and he never really came back.

2-0 Burn
Found the Jitte in time both games.

ID Lands
We played the match for fun and I lost 1-2. I made a mistake G3 but I'm not sure weather it mattered. I can say this Matchup is one of the most fun to play, countless decisions and interactions.

So this deck is still hot and I'm probably gonna take it to the next bigger tournament I attend.

[five]

Here is a list I have been testing lately. It is really more of a combination of Excaliber and U/W Tempo:

Creatures (21)
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Ninja of the Deep Hour
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer


Instants (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze

Artifacts (6)
3 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice


Lands (18)
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Mutavault

Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
2 Aura of Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Condemn

First of all, I am not trying to improve U/W Tempo. I merely wanted to try something new. This deck plays quite a bit differently as you can imagine. It is usually slower and doesn't draw quite as many cards. The faeries are an interesting addition though. They are usually more consistant than Fathom Seer, Serra Avenger, and Vexing Sphinx (the creatures they replaced). Avenger offers serious beats though, which this version often lacks. Wayfarer is often dead too, and I feel like I have to run Daze just to keep him active. It is nice to be able to tutor for the Mutavault occasionally. The Ninjas were kind of a random addition but have worked out quite well. They obviously allow you bounce Sprite, Clique, or Mystic and reuse their CitP abilities. They also allow you to reset the Grunt's counters. The card draw trigger is nice and it is insane when he is equipped with SoFI.

The sideboard is basically what I was using for U/W Tempo, so it is not really tuned for this deck per se. I was obviously inspired by U/W Tempo when creating this deck. I would like to get some opinions from fellow U/W Tempo players and hopefully improve this deck a little more.

I have played in 3 tournmants so far and have a record of 7-4-1 (not counting a bye and a scoop to a friend). I have improved everytime I played this deck, so hopefully the trend continues...

[(nameless one)]

I have most of the cards from pi's original list (except for Tundras... I might use Hallowed Fountains instead or borrow them from a buddy). What are the good and bad matchups against this deck? I want to play something different for an upcoming tournament.

[colo]

The only agreed-upon really bad matchup is Zoo. There are others which are considered between below average and bad by some, like 16lord merfolk and trisomy 21. You have a fighting chance against almost anything. There aren't many archetypes that you'll completely, utterly stomp, either (think Ad Nauseam Tendrils vs. a preconstructed Theme Deck from a recent set like). You should end up winning more than you lose if you play the deck right, though ;)

[naurthal]

think Ad Nauseam Tendrils vs. a preconstructed Theme Deck from a recent set like

One of SoM intro packs has two duress in it! Don't underestimate the power of theme decks.

[Tinefol]

Back alive and kicking! Played 3 local tourneys in the past week and went 3-1-1, 2-1-1 and 3-1, finishing in prizes twice. The deck is blast to play, as always!

Zoo isn't that bad. The BGW Mystic Survival match up is very bad, on other hand.

[(nameless one)]

Back alive and kicking! Played 3 local tourneys in the past week and went 3-1-1, 2-1-1 and 3-1, finishing in prizes twice. The deck is blast to play, as always!

Zoo isn't that bad. The BGW Mystic Survival match up is very bad, on other hand.

We're you running the stock list?

Just to be sure we're all the same page, the stock list is as follows right?:



4 Flooded Strands
4 Tundra
3 (any white-based fetchlands)
3 Wasteland
2 Plains
1 Island

4 Fathom Seer
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

3 AEther Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte

[Tinefol]

Sort of. I run 1 Kor Haven as a 18th land, 2 Spell pierces is stock, not 3.

[Purgatory]

I have most of the cards from pi's original list (except for Tundras... I might use Hallowed Fountains instead or borrow them from a buddy). What are the good and bad matchups against this deck? I want to play something different for an upcoming tournament.

Get the Tundras, for sure. Hallowed Fountain is horrible, because you'll be bouncing your own lands with Fathom Seer and Daze.

[(nameless one)]

Get the Tundras, for sure. Hallowed Fountain is horrible, because you'll be bouncing your own lands with Fathom Seer and Daze.

I'll probably end up borrowing them so I think I should be good on that.

My meta is starting to shift to control. Would this deck stand a chance vs. Landstill? My meta looks like: combo, Merfolk, Survivals and board control strategies such as Landstill and Enchantress.

[Tinefol]

With the exception of some Survival builds (not sure what's run there), the deck should slide through that meta.

[Vacrix]

Here is a list I have been testing lately. It is really more of a combination of Excaliber and U/W Tempo:

Creatures (21)
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Ninja of the Deep Hour
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Mother of Runes
3 Weathered Wayfarer


Instants (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze

Artifacts (6)
3 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice


Lands (18)
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Mutavault

Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
2 Aura of Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Condemn

First of all, I am not trying to improve U/W Tempo. I merely wanted to try something new. This deck plays quite a bit differently as you can imagine. It is usually slower and doesn't draw quite as many cards. The faeries are an interesting addition though. They are usually more consistant than Fathom Seer, Serra Avenger, and Vexing Sphinx (the creatures they replaced). Avenger offers serious beats though, which this version often lacks. Wayfarer is often dead too, and I feel like I have to run Daze just to keep him active. It is nice to be able to tutor for the Mutavault occasionally. The Ninjas were kind of a random addition but have worked out quite well. They obviously allow you bounce Sprite, Clique, or Mystic and reuse their CitP abilities. They also allow you to reset the Grunt's counters. The card draw trigger is nice and it is insane when he is equipped with SoFI.

The sideboard is basically what I was using for U/W Tempo, so it is not really tuned for this deck per se. I was obviously inspired by U/W Tempo when creating this deck. I would like to get some opinions from fellow U/W Tempo players and hopefully improve this deck a little more.

I have played in 3 tournmants so far and have a record of 7-4-1 (not counting a bye and a scoop to a friend). I have improved everytime I played this deck, so hopefully the trend continues...
Nice record. Have you been taking notes as to whether or not in your games you would have preferred to see the cards that you cut from the conventional list? I'd like to see some variants develop as well. Maybe if we can pull Matt away from Starcrack 2...

I recall Dalkon playing a Clique/Karakas configuration in the last MTGS tournament. Is anyone else running this config? If so, how is it going? It doesn't change the current board state as much as Vexing Sphinx does, but its a solid way of preventing your opponent from landing threats if you can hit 4 land drops, unless of course you want to move vial to 3. The other advantage of Karakas is that you can bounce Emrakul, which is showing up more often these days. Also, it seems as though current UWT SB lists have lacked Curfew since Reanimator got nerfed, meaning that Emrakul is a much stronger strategy against UWT than it would be otherwise.

Also, five, even though Standstill sees play in Landstill (which is on the rise), most Merfolk builds have switched to the 16 Lord variants, meaning that Mutavault is likely going to be useful in fewer situations. Given that you already play Vendillion Clique, you might want to try Karakas in that slot. How useful has it been so far?

[five]

@Vacrix
The card I miss the most is probably Serra Avenger. My version slower and much more reliant on equipment to deal damage. Therefore, Krosan Grip is much more of a blowout than usual. I definitely miss Fathom Seer too, especially against Merfolk. In order to beat Merfolk now I find myself casting pointless Dazes (to bounce islands) and Wasting my own Tundras. I do miss Spell Pierce too, but the Sprites at least counter many relivant spells that I'd be Piercing. The Cliques can often snag game changing spells as well.

If I had a Karakas, I would definately give it a try. Until then, I suppose I will stick with the Mutavault. It does get Islandwalk from LoA, which can be helpful in that match up. In theory it is an additional faerie for the Sprites, but that rarely actually happens. Maybe I will proxy Karakas and test it out...

[Mom]

@five
Love your list, I've been wanting to change around to something a little different and had planned on adding spellstutters myself.
Just curious though, in what match ups do you feel that this list fares better or worse against the original? Other than that, keep it up!

@Ben
Don't a fair portion of the decks that run emrakul use sneak attack as a back up?
That sort of kills the point of curfew.

[five]

@five
Love your list, I've been wanting to change around to something a little different and had planned on adding spellstutters myself.
Just curious though, in what match ups do you feel that this list fares better or worse against the original? Other than that, keep it up!

In theory, this deck could be better against control decks. They shouldn't be able to block the Ninja of the Deep Hour too often. Spellstutter Sprites hits Innocent Blood, and it is a little more difficult for Deeds/Explosives to hit the Ninja as well. That being said, I haven't been able to test against a true control deck.

Combo should be better too. The Sprites and Cliques seem like fine answers to their shenanigans. Again, I really haven't had a chance to test agianst combo. Perhaps my build is too slow to deliver a resonable clock.

I have tested against Survival Bant a fair bit. It seems to be a positive match up. The faeries tend to snag late Survivals. Not having Spell Pierce main hurts though. This is a match where having the Karakas could definitely pay off...

Zoo seems about the same as the origninal (50/50). The Sprites hit most of their deck, but not having the Avenger hurts a bit. Pridemage is a must answer; it is usually game over if he wrecks my equipment.

Goblins is also about the same as before, although it is harder for me to find Ghostly Prison out of board. Also, Pyrokinesis sweeps my board every time!

Merfolk is definitely a tougher match up. I won 2-0 last time, but it involved those shenanigans I mentioned in my previous post. That's not gonna work every time. Merfolk is such a positive match up for U/W Tempo; I seriously have 2-0'ed them in at least4/5 of my previous matches. I am 1-1 with the build I am discussing in this post. Play the original build in a Merfolk heavy meta.

[kicbak]

Hey guys, I'm going to end up playing UW tempo some more at one of the upcoming Star City 5ks. I don't really have a descent sideboard since mystical tutor left town. That combined with the the rise of madness/survival is making a sideboard more difficult then I thought. Any ideas?
I'm running a pretty standard list the two flex spots (1 vial(3 total), 1 spell pierce(3 total), No sphinx)

3 E. Tutor
1 Eathersworn
1 Thorn of Ame.
1 Ghostly prison (vengevines, goblins)
2 Relics
3 Path to exile (vengevines) - Path sucks but I need to remove them from the game not just
1 Wheel of sun and moon - This is a replacement not a trigger right? They can't discard vengevine with survival and get it back right?
2 Aura of silence (not sure I really need this seems a little too slow)
1 Devout witness (at least it is reuseable)

I was also thinking about 1 or 2 coral helm since merfolk seems to be everywhere. But we do have a decent matchup, crushing them more seems like a good way to rack up wins though.

Another Jitte seems really good but with 2 mystics/2 jitte it may be enough.

[Tinefol]

Actually, Madness should be easy, from my limited testing I haven't had any problems. Last time I've run the SB of

2 Etutor
1 Canonist
1 Thorn
1 Relic
1 Crypt
1 Wheel
2 PTE (a sin though)
2 Wing Shards
2 Devout Witness
2 Absolute Law

The latter could be switched for something else.

[kicbak]

Ah, wing shards - Forgot about it as well. If you wouldn't mind either on here or just in a PM, do you have your sideboard IN/OUT list for different matchups?

Thanks

[Teumie]

hey all,

I have been travelling for the last 6 months and just want to get up to date on this deck since i played it before ...
Can anyone post me the latest standard MD list? I dont seem to find it here (a lot of SB lists, so only the MD please)

Thanks

[from Cairo]

hey all,

I have been travelling for the last 6 months and just want to get up to date on this deck since i played it before ...
Can anyone post me the latest standard MD list? I dont seem to find it here (a lot of SB lists, so only the MD please)

Thanks

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 W/x Fetch
3 Wasteland
2 Plains
1 Island

4 Mother of Runes
4 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Serra Avenger
4 Fathom Seer
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

3 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Flex Slot (Spell Pierce #3, Karakas/Kor Haven, Wasteland #4, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Vexing Sphinx)

[Teumie]

Thanks,
Apparently the deck did not change the last 6 months, I played only 2 vials and 2 sphinxes ...
Not sure if the static of this deck is good, I still have to check the latest sets, but apparently nothing good came up?

Anyway, looking forward to playing this deck again!

Cheers

[Jonathan Alexander]

In my opinion the third Vial is the second flexslot. But there are less options what to play in this slot. You either want the third Vial or a Sphinx. I' usually running 2 Vials and 2 Sphinxes, I always liked that configuration.
The deck doesn't change that much 'cause there isn't much to change since most of the cards are obligatory. On the one hand you have the engine of the deck, which basically are the Vials and most of the creatures. On the other hand you got the blue stuff and Swords To Plowshares. And yeah, the rest is basically lands. You could try to play something else than Serra Avenger of Mother Of Runes but that doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
Anyway, I think this deck was way better before the banning of Mystical. There's more and more Zoo, less combo and Merfolk seems to become a harder matchup, at least the 16-lord monoblue builds. Granted, these aren't alot but it seems like these are the only ones I'm facing with this deck. When I'm playing something different, I'm facing other builds. Not cool. If you find a way to improve the Zoo matchup, you're going to win alot with this deck.
I might be playing UWT in a tournament today, but I'm not sure yet. If I should, I think I'm going to write a short report.

[technogeek5000]

I've always loved the card sky hussar and it seems like this would be the perfect shell for it. Opinions?

[Jonathan Alexander]

I don't think it does much. In general you want to use your creatures and it really seems like win-more. You're basically never going to actually cast it but it pitches to Force Of Will. I'll keep playing Vexing Sphinx, but you can try it out and then tell us how it worked. I'm sure this would be wasted time though, especially since you're going to play it as a one-off, maybe a two-off and are rarely going to draw it anyway. It's hard to reliably test singletons, I had that problem when I tried out Elspeth, Knight-Errant in here. After about twenty testgames where I didn't draw her once, I've had enough and cut her again.
By the way, I didn't play UWT today so there's no report coming. I just didn't feel like doing so. The meta was great for it though.

[Teumie]

just curious, what did you play instead?
btw, regarding sky hussar, I do not think he is playable, 5 mana is too much and the forecast is a bit clumsy ...
personally, i really like the sphinx (i play 2 of them), they beat and they draw you cards

[Jonathan Alexander]

I thought about playing Excalibur but then played UBr BitterStalker with Firespouts mainboard. The meta was tribal-heavy and in general this was a good decision but somehow I managed to lose against Merfolk round one and was slightly pissed so I heavily misplayed in round two and didn't face any more Aggro, which sucked. My report is in the Faeries-thread.
You're definitely right about Sphinx. It looks quite shitty but it's so incredibly good for the deck against basically everything. I'm not playing that deck that much right now but this is how my list looks, pretty standard:

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
2 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

//Creatures
4 Fathom Seer
2 Jötun Grunt
4 Mother Of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vexing Sphinx
4 Weathered Wayfarer

//Spells
2 Æther Vial
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force Of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords To Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte

//Sideboard
3 Aura Of Silence
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic Of Prognitus
3 Submerge
1 Thorn Of Amethyst
1 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
1 Wing Shards

The Wing Shards could easily be another Jötun Grunt since he's absolutely awesome against a lot of decks. Anyway, there's not much to talk about, the list is pretty standard, like I said. One of the Auras could be Essence Warden or something else but I'll keep playing Auras.
For those who are interested, I played a different sideboard for quite some time and basically I liked it. The mainboard was the same.

//Sideboard
1 Aura Of Silence
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Hydroblast
1 Jötun Grunt
1 Submerge
1 Sword Of Fire And Ice
1 Sword Of Light And Shadow
1 Thorn Of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
1 Wing Shards

Note that the board is way less random than it looks. I'm not sure about Jötun Grunt, it could've been something else, but I don't think so 'cause I'm usually playing five pieces of gravehate in the board. He's also important against Zoo because of two things. At first, he shuts off Lavamancer and shrinks Tarmogoyf + Knight Of The Reliquary. The second reason is that with 3 Grunts and 2 Sphinxes, we have more creatures they need to Path than they have Pathes combined with our ability to see lots of cards, this is awesome. I don't know anymore how my tournament record was with this board but I liked it. But I think he last time I played the I played against Merfolk round one and lost, like always when I play decks that are good against Merfolk.
The only thing I would change are the Swords. I have to admit that this was something I just wanted to test. In most matchups I sided out one Jitte for one of the Swords to see if it was any better but Jitte is always better in this deck. I think I would replace them with a Burrenton Forge-Tender and a Lightning Greaves. Shroud is awesome.

[Heresy]

I think Spell Pierce could be easily replaced by Spell Snare given your meta seems flooded with Merfolk. Edit: Cursed Scroll could be good too.

[kicbak]

Well this is the list I'm planning on running at SCG 5k on Sunday. Went with 3rd vial and 3rd spell pierce. Early vial improves CB matchup so much I hate not having on. Spell pierce helps so much in winning counter wars, early survival and lots of other random stuff. My sideboard is mainly focused on Survial plus the random graveyard, graveyard stuff I can fetch with E.Tutor. I added 3 paths (I know, I know) but they really seem to help against Survival with the RFG bonus. They also help against merfolk on the draw when I take out dazes. Before Coralhelm merfolk was an easier match up but now I find I really want to have more removal for lords. Any thing I'm missing as far as good SB cards or even maindecking some SB cards for decks that should be really popular this weekend?

3 Aether Vial
2 Jitte
5 (5)
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Fathom Seer
4 Force of Will
18 (23)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avatar
2 Stoneforge Mystic
20 (43)
2 Plains
1 Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wasteland
17 (60)

Sideboard
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersowrn Canonist (Combo)
1 Thorn of Amethist (Combo)
1 Relic of Progenitist (Graveyard)
1 Tormod's Crypt (Graveyard)
3 Path to Exile (Merfolk/Survival for RFG)
2 Devout Witness (Reusable art/enc hate)
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon (Graveyard)
2 Pithing Needle (Survival)

[Jonathan Alexander]

I think Spell Pierce could be easily replaced by Spell Snare given your meta seems flooded with Merfolk. Edit: Cursed Scroll could be good too.

My meta isn't even flooded with Merfolk, it's just that I always have abysmal draws against them, no matter what I'm playing. Starting every tournament like this really sucks. Anyway, I'm not here to complain. But I still think that Spell Pierce is way better in this deck. It hits so much we don't want to see and Spell Snare basically only hits a few creatures plus Jitte, Counterbalance and Survival. Correct me if I'm wrong, I somehow feel like I forgot something.
By the way, I don't think Cursed Scroll is good in here. You tend to have a lot of cards in hand. Well, at least I do. But I'm pretty good at drawing useless lands, even under an active Wayfarer.


Well this is the list I'm planning on running at SCG 5k on Sunday. Went with 3rd vial and 3rd spell pierce. Early vial improves CB matchup so much I hate not having on. Spell pierce helps so much in winning counter wars, early survival and lots of other random stuff. My sideboard is mainly focused on Survial plus the random graveyard, graveyard stuff I can fetch with E.Tutor. I added 3 paths (I know, I know) but they really seem to help against Survival with the RFG bonus. They also help against merfolk on the draw when I take out dazes. Before Coralhelm merfolk was an easier match up but now I find I really want to have more removal for lords. Any thing I'm missing as far as good SB cards or even maindecking some SB cards for decks that should be really popular this weekend?

3 Aether Vial
2 Jitte
5 (5)
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Fathom Seer
4 Force of Will
18 (23)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avatar
2 Stoneforge Mystic
20 (43)
2 Plains
1 Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wasteland
17 (60)

Sideboard
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersowrn Canonist (Combo)
1 Thorn of Amethist (Combo)
1 Relic of Progenitist (Graveyard)
1 Tormod's Crypt (Graveyard)
3 Path to Exile (Merfolk/Survival for RFG)
2 Devout Witness (Reusable art/enc hate)
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon (Graveyard)
2 Pithing Needle (Survival)

Not much to say about the mainboard except that you forgot to write down Swords To Plowshares. The sideboard looks decent though I don't know about Devout Witness. A few people here seem to like it, but I never felt like I need it. I think I'd probably cut one for an Aura Of Silence (because of Tutor) and maybe another one for the fourth aggro-slot or another Aura. I think Pithing Needle is pretty hot right now, you might even cut one of your Spell Pierces for a Vexing Sphinx because Needle fights a lot of the cards Spell Pierce fights: Equipment, Planeswalkers, CounterTop, Survival and much more. Plus it's really good against Merfolk, it fights their Wastelands (probably not a good idea though), Mutavaults, Æther Vial (which might be a bad idea aswell), Coralhelm Commanders, Merfolk Sovereigns and occasional Jittes.
By the way, I'm considering to play a singleton Trinket Mage in the deck again. It pitches to Force Of Will, carries Jitte, creates cardadvantage and finds important sideboard-cards. That way you can increase your blue-count but still kind of have three Vials. And you could even maindeck Pithing Needle. I also might try out a few Engineered Explosives off the board then again. Might be cool, I'm not sure.

[gustha]

what are the general thoughts about path to exile and the vengevine mu? i've already sleeved up the deck once again (after months of absence to magic tournaments due to university concerns) and i'm planning to bring it to next tournament, since last metagame breakdown of the league shows that tes, merfol, vengevine and ichorid are the most popular decks. I think the deck performs very well against merfolk preboard and postboard, and p2e is not needed (just sword of fire and ice in the board and, let's say, a couple of echoing truth or other things); also, some playable g1 against ichorid (if you can combo sword and vial and jotun in the first turns) and I don't know against tes (last time I played, mystical tutor was still legal -.-"). I don't really know about the vengevine MU, it seems balanced on the paper, plus I also think pithing needle is hot these days. (However, if i were going to play something other than the 3rd jotun in the flex slot, I'd probably play sword of fire and ice, rather than pithing needle).
I forgot the first question: is it p2e really needed? sure, it's way useful in combination with wayfarer, but also fucks up the denial plan. Or, i can simply use the wastes to shut mutavaults off and random duals to vengevine, i think that does work.

my sb:
2 e tutor
3 aura of silence (maybe the 3rd is not needed, could be another jitte?)
2 echoing truth
1 sword of fire and ice
1 pithing needle
2 canonist
1 thorn of amethyst
1 relic
1 tormod
1 wheel

[Tinefol]

This is what I'd play now:


// Lands
2 [UG] Plains
1 [UG] Island
4 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
4 [TSP] Fathom Seer
3 [PS] Meddling Mage

// Spells
3 [NE] Daze
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 2 [SC] Wing Shards
SB: 2 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [MM] Devout Witness
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 [US] Absolute Law // Flex spot


Rock solid against everything but G(b)W Survival. Tuned to give you a chance against it. MM on survival 4tw. Not to mention it comes handy in a ton of matches. As for Vengevine: It should beat UG, should be on par with UGW, and subpar to GW or GW(b) (the less Mystics, Moms and vials they run - the better it is for you).

Last time I've played this in a 93 people tourney, finishing 19th with 4-2-1. Lost my last match in a fight for top8 (should've finished 4th, if I won). Lost to White tempo thresh (flooded/screwed), and Zoo, won against Zoo, TES, Ichorid, Goblins 2-0, draw with BG POX (should've won, but the player was very slow).

Needle and EE are bad there, don't ever run them.

[kicbak]

Meddling mage does seem really good right now. I think you have 61 cards in there, are you playing 61 or have a typo somewhere? Dropping 1 SP would be easy and turn 1 wayfarer ins't seeming very good right now. I could drop 1 needle from the SB if I have 2 meddling mages.

[Tinefol]

Its a sin of 61 cards, I just haven't found what's to cut. As for flex spots in the SB, if you're that afraid of survival, run Hibernation. Whenever you cast that its pretty much GG.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Why is Meddling Mage so much better than Pithing Needle? Only because of the body, being blue and being a creature? I can see why you would want to run them, he has been in earlier incarnations of the deck, but do you really think playing 61 cards and cutting a Wayfarer is worth it?
Anyway, I like your sideboard though I often found Wing Shards to be rather clunky so I'd probably cut one for any other removal spell. I mean there are a ton of options. I wouldn't run Absolute Law, but from what you said, I guess these are meta-slots so nevermind.

[Tinefol]

You pretty much got it right. Its blue (upping the blue count for FoW), it has a body, and its a creature. The latter part the most important, because
a) It can be protected by Mom
b) It can not be gripped, so you can also protect it with counters.
It also randomly shut downs a lot of stuff Needle can't, like
a) being useful against all sort of combo
b) being useful against decks relying on certain (non-needlable) spells to resolve (loam, dredge, SNT, etc)

Where it sucks, its merely a Grizzly Bears with an annoying ability for opponent (if chosen right). If the meta is all aggro (like zoo and merfolk) I wouldn't play it of course. Its strictly a meta card.

[alderon666]

How is Path better than Condemn?

Oh, when your opponent is playing Vengevines.

[Citrus-God]

Path to Exiles removes Vengevines from the game, so that they won't be survival'd again. It does "gambit" and give your opponent an extra land (+1 in card advantage) and a thinner deck in return for board control. In a deck like UW Tempo, Path to Exiles are not good due to the fact that it takes a lot of time for UWT to control the board. If it had fat beaters (like Goyf and KoR big), then Path to Exiles would not be a problem, but in this deck, it has small creatures which are typically used to group block bigger creatures and are not big enough to overwhelm the opponent. Condemn isn't that good either, as sad as it is, due to the existence of Vengevine. Condemn along with Swords to Plowshares is very good against Zoo though. Swords can snipe at Lavamancers while Condemn takes care of everything else. But that whole Vengevine thing is a huge problem.

Although Meddling Mage seems like an interesting proposal, that card, is very situational. I know that us magic players want things to be perfect and always want cards that answers other cards either immediately or later without a drawback.... but that is some sort of odd fantasy weird we would be living in if everybody's sideboard had universal answers (oddly enough, Reanimator is perfect example of a universal fighting machine).

Runed Halo, however, does seem interesting. It makes damage dealt to you by Goyfs and Vengevines seem almost painless. The only problem is that they can use Survival to tutor up Enchantment hate. But that is why you run multiples, and you force them to invest tempo to find answers. Use this tempo they're spending just to make a 1-for-1 trade and build up your board and hand. Keep swinging at them with Grunts, Avengers and Sphinxes and Jitte foddlers as you collect card advantage from Seers and Jitte snipes. This deck seems proactive and fully capable of doing such things.

It can also be potentially good against Zoo as well (Qasali Pridemage isn't that big of a deal. They spend much more mana on trying to answer your answers without card advantage as compensation. Also keeps them off trying to destroy Jitte).

I will test Halo out and get back to you guys.

[preddi]

Hey guys, I really like this deck and i was thinking of testing it at our weekly tournament.
The metagame looks like few merfolk and goblin players and many countertop versions with green and red. How do you think this deck works in this meta?

[Jonathan Alexander]

Quite awesome meta to play UWT. It's good against CounterTop in general, but watch out for recurring Engineered Explosives. Good thing you have gravehate and Wasteland. Wayfarer tends to beat these decks on its own. Æther Vial is pretty good here as well. Control matchups usually are our better matchups. Tribal aggro in general is also more than doable. You have Mother Of Runes and Serra Avenger + Umezawa's Jitte, if you feel you need to, you can pack some Burrenton Forge-Tender. How good Merfolk actually is depends on their build, but you don't really want to see Coralhelm Commander and Lord Of Atlantis, depending on the gamestate. If you can bounce your islands, Lord Of Atlenatis isn't that scary, if you can't you should think about swordsing it.

[preddi]

Hey, thansk for the reply!
I'm also wondering what is the best card for this flex slot? A 3rd Vial seems to make sense. But another Spell Pierce or Vexing Sphinx looks good too. What do you think about this? My current list looks like this:


// Lands
3 Plains
2 Island
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
3 Marsh Flats

// Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Jötun Grunt
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Fathom Seer
1 Vexing Sphinx

// Spells
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Spell Pierce

[Purgatory]

It's the stock list with a worse manabase. Get those two Tundras in there asap, because for every Tundra that is a Plains or an Island instead you are either weaking your ability to play Serra Avenger and any other spell while keeping Wayfarer active, or you're making Fathom Seer worse.

Side note: I played the stock list in a tournament of 45 people last week, and went 3-3, which was a dissappointment. Here's to more testing though, I think I still suck too much with the deck to actually put up any decent results.

[colo]

If you're expecting to see CB-Top, you want to run as many Aether Vials as legally possible, since resolving one usually spells doom to their strategy.

[roioned]

Hi, a couple of months ago, i stopped playing MTG until now.This thread was very active....maybe the most active thread on mtg source.Now this thread is dead.My question is WHY?

[Vacrix]

Hi, a couple of months ago, i stopped playing MTG until now.This thread was very active....maybe the most active thread on mtg source.Now this thread is dead.My question is WHY?
Matt plays a lot of Starcraft. :P

Also, storm was a severely reduced part of the metagame until recently, so it should see a resurgence; however, I question how good the deck is against Survival since Survival has an easy time playing around fringe countermagic like Daze and Spell Pierce due to mana dudes.

[Jonathan Alexander]

It's the metashift. Goblins are rarely seen anymore and Merfolk got Coralhelm Commander. The deck has become a lot better than before, since we can't stall the ground as easily as we could before. Storm combo almost disappeared, but like Vacrix pointed out, is coming back. I also don't face any Dredge right now, which has been one of this deck's best matchups. You don't see that many tempo or slow control decks anymore either, which have almost been pretty good matchups for this deck. Reanimate almost completely disappeared, but Zoo, the other old bad matchup is still out there. The are better decks to play against Vengevine Survival right now, which are also better against a lot of other decks that see much play these days.
I'm sorry to say that I don't see getting this deck far right now. You could toss a few Pithing Needles into your sideboard and hope that this will be enough against Vengevine and Merfolk, but as far as I see it, this deck needs another good removal-spell. Being able to run eight-plow would be really awesome.

[Tinefol]

Apparently UWT made it into finals of SCG Open in Richmond. I've stopped playing the deck, mainly because it was folding to BGW Survival advantage decks, and Vengevines were giving me stable steam of prize finishes.

UWT is still quite viable though and is actually okay vs U/G Survival (much less against GW though), so its no wonder it can make it into the finals (and hopefully win!). Even though I'm playing Survival myself, I'm anticipating the supposed upcomoning ban, since it would eliminate one of the toughest match ups.

Edit: watching the finals, god, how awfully he's playing :( Missing Wayfarer activations all over the place. And completely wasting Brainstorm. UWT really requires tight technical play in order to grind out all the advantage. Missing activations is bad, even if it doesn't really change outcome of the game. Needle, really? ETutor for Needle?! Needle is crap in this deck, for realz. Well G/W Survival is winning.

Edit2: The sudden Submerge, along with a bunch of G/W Survial player's mistakes saves the day! So its 1-1 now.

Edit3: Over in game3. Survival wins.

[Jonathan Alexander]

I completely agree with you, U/G is a way better matchup than G/W(b) lists are. But here in Germany most people are playing G/W when they're playing Survival so I'm not really playing the deck right now either. I'm waiting for December 20th to show what will happen to the meta.
Oh and by the way, do you have a link to the video of the match?

[PanderAlexander]

Matt's creation finally sees the finals in SCG 5k, here is the list for those wondering:

Maindeck:
2 Jotun Grunt

Artifacts
2 Aether Vial

Creatures
4 Fathom Seer
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vexing Sphinx
4 Weathered Wayfarer

Instants
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares

Legendary Artifacts
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Basic Lands
1 Island
2 Plains

Lands
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
1 Powder Keg
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Absolute Law
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Hibernation
2 Submerge
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

[Jay_Gatz]

Yeah, I made it to the finals and couldn't close. Why does starcity call it UW Aggro?
and yeah, by the end of the day I was far too exhausted to play correctly.
The E-tutor board and especially needle were key all day for me against survival.

[Mark Sun]

Yeah, I made it to the finals and couldn't close. Why does starcity call it UW Aggro?
and yeah, by the end of the day I was far too exhausted to play correctly.
The E-tutor board and especially needle were key all day for me against survival.

SCG is notorious for having no idea what any decks beyond the 6-7 DtB's are (everything that runs Tendrils of Agony is ANT for example, and they make up a new name for something if they don't know what it is like Dark Horizons). Congrats on your finish, rough beats that you couldn't close the deal. Will a tournament report be up?