[Deck] UW Tempo

[colo]

Did not face Maverick yet so I can only theorize about the matchup, but I'd try bringing in Hibernation from the sideboard.

[Scordata]

The meta is perfect for this deck right now.

People packing stifles? - Nogoyf Beats that.
People casting planeswalkers? - Nogoyf Beats that.
Corlhelm commander/Emrakul not around? - Nogoyf's time to shine.


Geist > Sphinx/Mirran Crusader. Grunt is insane right now. Mom and wayfarer are on fire.
Gush? Yes please.

Happy St. Patrick's day.

[Star|Scream]

The meta is perfect for this deck right now.

People packing stifles? - Nogoyf Beats that.
People casting planeswalkers? - Nogoyf Beats that.
Corlhelm commander/Emrakul not around? - Nogoyf's time to shine.


Geist > Sphinx/Mirran Crusader. Grunt is insane right now. Mom and wayfarer are on fire.
Gush? Yes please.

Happy St. Patrick's day.


Care to share a list?

[Scordata]

Standard list, with geist in the flex spots.

SB to your taste.

[Star|Scream]

Testing the geist. Against an empty board a geist + a grunt w/ sof&I is devastating, but I've also had the geist doing nothing but staring down a goyf. It's also hard to cast if wayfarer and fathom seer are doing their things, and the flier can't be equipped. That being said I was thinking of a 2/2 split with that and skaab ruinator, and upping the vial count a la Merfolk.

Grafdigger's Cage is my new GY hate of choice. It really is the most versatile hate we've seen. The fact that it also works against maverick and NO decks is icing.

Also Stony Silence is a 30 cent null rod that's harder for brown/red decks to deal with. Just remember to board out (most of) your equipment/vials!

[wcm8]

I think a UW tempo list should/could work, but I'm not really a fan of a lot of the old tech this deck is playing. I would play some sort of mixture of Stoneforge Mystic, Mother of Runes, Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Geist of St. Traft and other 'goodstuff'.

I do think Jotun Grunt is pretty good right now as he can keep both Goyf and Knight at manageable sizes as well as providing incidental GY hate for game 1.

Is Serra Avenger's vigiliance really that relevant? 3 toughness is still going to die to Bolt, and it's not typically going to be big enough to profitably block anyways. I think Delver is an obvious replacement (however, I understand why he's -not- good if the deck isn't playing a high enough number of spells to reliably flip him).

Snapcaster Mage seems more efficient at providing mid-game card advantage than Fathom Seer. Yeah yeah, playing Gush is good with Wayfarer, but damn is that card clunky.

Playing a healthy number of SFM in a deck based around little creatures seems obvious to me. At worst, Demonic Tutor-ing for Jitte/Sword of X&Y seems reasonable.

[Star|Scream]

I think a UW tempo list should/could work, but I'm not really a fan of a lot of the old tech this deck is playing. I would play some sort of mixture of Stoneforge Mystic, Mother of Runes, Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Geist of St. Traft and other 'goodstuff'.

I do think Jotun Grunt is pretty good right now as he can keep both Goyf and Knight at manageable sizes as well as providing incidental GY hate for game 1.

Is Serra Avenger's vigiliance really that relevant? 3 toughness is still going to die to Bolt, and it's not typically going to be big enough to profitably block anyways. I think Delver is an obvious replacement (however, I understand why he's -not- good if the deck isn't playing a high enough number of spells to reliably flip him).

Snapcaster Mage seems more efficient at providing mid-game card advantage than Fathom Seer. Yeah yeah, playing Gush is good with Wayfarer, but damn is that card clunky.

Playing a healthy number of SFM in a deck based around little creatures seems obvious to me. At worst, Demonic Tutor-ing for Jitte/Sword of X&Y seems reasonable.

The problem I have with this deck is that it feels as though I have to jump through hoops to get what other decks "just get." I'm waiting 3 turns to get my equipment online and attached when stoneblade just drops a batterskull. My 4 power creature for 2 can't just come online on turn 2 like a goyf, and my opponent doesn't even have to use a card to get rid of it.

Playing this against U/R Delver.... Yeah I have tricks I can do, and the deck is way more complex than throw burn and insects at your face, but isn't the point just to win?

[Star|Scream]

I'd like to hear peoples' thoughts on the merits of running stifle over spell pierce somewhere in the 75?

A resolved deed or explosives is devastating at best and slows us down at worst.

It can buy one more turn against a JTMS

Neuters snapcaster and sfm.

Stops KOTR > Maze of Ith

It's proactive like revoker or mage, but also reactive and instant speed.




Just some thoughts.

[Koby]

In almost all those situations, Spell Pierce still accomplishes what Stifle does, but makes them spend more resources to achieve (or attempt) it.

Is there a sample decklist that is being talked about in this current discussion? The last one I saw still used Vexing Sphinx. (2010?)

[Star|Scream]

In almost all those situations, Spell Pierce still accomplishes what Stifle does, but makes them spend more resources to achieve (or attempt) it.



Actually, spell pierce does not do the same, and actually makes them spend more resources.

4 lands out and they cast EE for 2.
Spell pierce = useless
Stifle = Resolves, then stifle the activation after they paid an additional 2.

Creatures with nasty ETB effects
Spell pierce = Useless
Stifle = Turns creature into squire

JTMS
Spell pierce = Counterspell for U #winning
Stifle = not entirely useless, but can keep a creature on the ground to attack or stop the ultimate

Kotr, Vial, Fetchlands, Welder, Mom, Karakas, Infinite amount of other activated abilities
Spell pierce = useless
Stifle = Stop your trick for U


Is there a sample decklist that is being talked about in this current discussion? The last one I saw still used Vexing Sphinx. (2010?)

That is the list that is still being proposed, minus the sphinxes. I think somewhere along the line some folks went up to 18 lands. I'm a fan of 3 Fathom seers to add the 4th wasteland.

[Scordata]

Great to have discussion back on this fantastic deck. Allow me some pontification:

Spell pierce acts as insurance in this deck. Stifle acts best as land destruction, and while it has other uses, they are marginal at best. Stifling SFM is still miserable, as they are up a card, and still have a dude. It's like playing a jace to remove a jace, after they've brainstormed with him. Barf. I guess it's useful against goblins and the like, but this deck eats gobbos for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

I could see the flex spots as being waste #4 and vial #3. This would streamline the deck, however it should be noted that in doing so, you remove late game "oomph" that helps push though. Yes, geist is most effective when they have no blockers, but remember, mom can easily accomplish this. I am reluctant to add more land, due to the face that with Wayfarer, one can end up almost feeling flooded. Remember, if they are wasting your turn 1 tundra, they probably suck, and you can punish them for it.

I've been experimenting with putting lands in the SB. Karakas, Maze of Ith, Tower of the Magistrate, and Moorland Haunt. I don't like Haunt, but it is useful in the control matches if the game goes long. Tower is great against Blade decks (obv) and can be used with much satisfaction in the maverick matchup. Mazing your geist after declaring attackers is another cool trick. Stony Silence is a boss against combo. I may also add a sword of light and shadow, because it's the best sword right now.

Be wary of Gutshot. This is one spell that has been overlooked, but is actually insanely powerful at the moment. I'm afraid that if it become popular, this deck won't exist anymore. It severely undermines this deck's greatest strength, which lies in board development while denying your opponent tempo. IE - they can't generate tempo with STP or Bolt if all your dudes cost 1. Gutshot ruins this paradigm.

This brings me to Umezawa's Jitte. Run 2 copies. Just do it.

[Star|Scream]

Great to have discussion back on this fantastic deck. Allow me some pontification:

Spell pierce acts as insurance in this deck. Stifle acts best as land destruction, and while it has other uses, they are marginal at best. Stifling SFM is still miserable, as they are up a card, and still have a dude. It's like playing a jace to remove a jace, after they've brainstormed with him. Barf. I guess it's useful against goblins and the like, but this deck eats gobbos for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.



I agree with the points below, however, I still feel as though you're underestimating stifle and overestimating spell pierce. Spell pierce is insurance, but it doesn't do anything proactively, it can be played around, and once the permanent is on the battlefield, it's useless. Stifle is proactive and hits many more targets.

A resolved EE or Deed wrecks this deck. How do you go about stopping this? Revoker or MM, FOW or hope they play into daze or spell pierce? Okay, but what if it is resolved? You can vial a revoker and hope they don't see it coming.

*note: I was talking about stifling the etb trigger of SFM, not the activation. Don't think of it that way. Think of it as paying U to tuck their batterskull. You would gladly pay W to get rid of the sfm before they can flash it in, right? Why not pay U and deny them the batterskull to begin with? The result is you paid U and a card and they paid 1W and got a squire. It's not really that bad.





I could see the flex spots as being waste #4 and vial #3. This would streamline the deck, however it should be noted that in doing so, you remove late game "oomph" that helps push though.



Do you think Seers is still a good thing? I think one can be cut. I don't want to be flooded but I mulligan way more than I like at 18 lands, much less 17 lands.

What do you feel is a 1-land keeper? I would need a fetch or a tundra with a vial and a daze or 1 plains and 2 wayfarers... I'm curious how everyone plays their mulls.



Yes, geist is most effective when they have no blockers, but remember, mom can easily accomplish this. I am reluctant to add more land, due to the face that with Wayfarer, one can end up almost feeling flooded. Remember, if they are wasting your turn 1 tundra, they probably suck, and you can punish them for it.

I've been experimenting with putting lands in the SB. Karakas, Maze of Ith, Tower of the Magistrate, and Moorland Haunt. I don't like Haunt, but it is useful in the control matches if the game goes long. Tower is great against Blade decks (obv) and can be used with much satisfaction in the maverick matchup. Mazing your geist after declaring attackers is another cool trick. Stony Silence is a boss against combo. I may also add a sword of light and shadow, because it's the best sword right now.

Be wary of Gutshot. This is one spell that has been overlooked, but is actually insanely powerful at the moment. I'm afraid that if it become popular, this deck won't exist anymore. It severely undermines this deck's greatest strength, which lies in board development while denying your opponent tempo. IE - they can't generate tempo with STP or Bolt if all your dudes cost 1. Gutshot ruins this paradigm.

This brings me to Umezawa's Jitte. Run 2 copies. Just do it.

So 2 jitte main, 2 sfm, and no swords except in the sideboard?

Also more consistent vial drops help to mitigate gut shot.

[five]

Thoughts on Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in this deck? Her Amethyst effect can lock some decks out if Wayfarer is online, and it makes Daze/Pierce a little better (if you leave appropriate mana up :tongue:). First Strike with a Jitte is pretty sweet as well.

[Star|Scream]

Thoughts on Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in this deck? Her Amethyst effect can lock some decks out if Wayfarer is online, and it makes Daze/Pierce a little better (if you leave appropriate mana up :tongue:). First Strike with a Jitte is pretty sweet as well.

Played against Maverick and they were using Thalia... Apparently for the first time, too. They didn't realize that their STPs now cost 1W. It's great for slowing someone down, but we have at least 20 noncreature spells. So Thalia reads "1/3 your deck costs 1 more to cast"

Not that I don't think she's a good card or anything, and with an active vial we aren't as affected as most decks.

[3eowulf]

I've played the deck this sunday and was really impressed by Thalia, even when locking myself with her. She's a bomb against almost every matchup and should be probably played as a 3x. Consider that our non creature spell are:

- Vial (usually played before T.)
- Fow/Daze (very affordable at 1 mana)
- Swords/Bstorm (usually affordable at 2/not needed when T. is strongest)
- Equipment (almost uncastable/still "stoneforgeable"/usually not needed when T. is strong)

[Star|Scream]

I've played the deck this sunday and was really impressed by Thalia, even when locking myself with her. She's a bomb against almost every matchup and should be probably played as a 3x. Consider that our non creature spell are:

- Vial (usually played before T.)
- Fow/Daze (very affordable at 1 mana)
- Swords/Bstorm (usually affordable at 2/not needed when T. is strongest)
- Equipment (almost uncastable/still "stoneforgeable"/usually not needed when T. is strong)

What did you cut for her? Have you tried Geist of Saint Traft?

[lavafrogg]

Hello!

I just goldfished many games at Pop Culture Paradise with my girlfriend, thanks to the azmagicplayers.com guys having an awesome legacy workshop, and I had build a uw brew the night before that I had a lot of fun with.

I tried to maximize the use of wayfarer without running crap like fathom seer(I said it... Crap) and the deck played quite smooth. I thought I would post it up for any consideration on the internets.

Doods:
4 mother of runes
4 weathered wayfarer
3 Serra avengers
3 phyrexian revokers
3 stoneforge mystic

Artifacts
1 batterskull
1 jitte

Chants
4 standstill

Instants
4 force of will
4 daze
3 spell snare
4 brainstorm
4 path to exile

Lands
4 flooded strand
4 mishras factory
1 dust bowl
1 academy ruins
1 Kjeldoran outpost
3 tundra
2 plains
2 island

The board was something like meddling mage, grunt, canonist, stifle. I used daze and path to ensure I had less lands for wayfarer and fetched up outpost(sac a land) or factories to defend/attack. It was loads of fun and operating under the standstill was quite powerfull.

The only change I would want to add would be to get some grunts into the mainboard.

[Star|Scream]

Hello!

I just goldfished many games at Pop Culture Paradise with my girlfriend, thanks to the azmagicplayers.com guys having an awesome legacy workshop, and I had build a uw brew the night before that I had a lot of fun with.

I tried to maximize the use of wayfarer without running crap like fathom seer(I said it... Crap) and the deck played quite smooth. I thought I would post it up for any consideration on the internets.

Doods:
4 mother of runes
4 weathered wayfarer
3 Serra avengers
3 phyrexian revokers
3 stoneforge mystic

Artifacts
1 batterskull
1 jitte

Chants
4 standstill

Instants
4 force of will
4 daze
3 spell snare
4 brainstorm
4 path to exile

Lands
4 flooded strand
4 mishras factory
1 dust bowl
1 academy ruins
1 Kjeldoran outpost
3 tundra
2 plains
2 island

The board was something like meddling mage, grunt, canonist, stifle. I used daze and path to ensure I had less lands for wayfarer and fetched up outpost(sac a land) or factories to defend/attack. It was loads of fun and operating under the standstill was quite powerfull.

The only change I would want to add would be to get some grunts into the mainboard.

What's your plan against sulfur elemental?

[lavafrogg]

Starscream- sulfer elemental is the equivilant of perish or virtues rain. All you can do is meddling Mage it after board, path it, bring in swords to pump your dudes, grunts to survive it(and smash face) and pray:)

Come to think of it: after board you can side out most 1cc dudes for EE(at 1) and bring in grunts and mages...which means with an elemental on the board you have 5/3's 4/2 flying vigilance and 3/1 beaters... kind of a push if you ask me... add that you your EE for geese and delvers, snares for goyfs and paths for anything you can target... not sitting too terribly bad.

[Star|Scream]

Starscream- sulfer elemental is the equivilant of perish or virtues rain. All you can do is meddling Mage it after board, path it, bring in swords to pump your dudes, grunts to survive it(and smash face) and pray:)

Come to think of it: after board you can side out most 1cc dudes for EE(at 1) and bring in grunts and mages...which means with an elemental on the board you have 5/3's 4/2 flying vigilance and 3/1 beaters... kind of a push if you ask me... add that you your EE for geese and delvers, snares for goyfs and paths for anything you can target... not sitting too terribly bad.

Except that those spells are all sorcery and counterable, while elemental isn't, but I'll try it.

[lavafrogg]

Sideboard for my above list:
3 tormod's crypt
3 jotun grunt
4 meddling mage
1 crucible of worlds
1 sword of feast and famine
3 engineered explosives

It lets the deck change to a completely different version of UW fish. With mages to target specific cards(including swords to plowshares), grunts to eat graveyards and explosives to control the board. It seems to have something for everything. Crucible if for more long game and the sword is for green decks.

[Finn]

In D+T we have been using Honor of the Pure for Sulfur Elemental and similar hate. It can be used proactively, which is better than an instant. And it has a very good effect on its own. Most of all, it actually makes their Sulfur Elemental really bad, as it would just buff our guys more. So their hate card sits dead in their hand until they can get rid of an enchantment or play two 3 cmc spells on successive turns against a deck that has oodles of nonbasic hate. Perhaps not the perfect fit that it is for D+T, but since you can just tutor for it, why the heck not try one?

[lavafrogg]

Honor the pure....lol, that is awesome. The added bonus is that grunts and angels would be the biggest creatures on the board in most match-ups. It also buffs my super techie kjeldoran outpost!

[HPB_Eggo]

I played more than a few games with this deck a year or so ago. It operates on no lands, gets benefits from having few lands, and is overall quite the excellent deck in some ways.

With the unbanning of Land Tax, I think it could get a little better.

Obviously, the deck needs to be tuned to work well with it. Going back to running some of the older creatures seems like it would work well, specifically Fathom Seer. Additionally, Snapcaster would allow additional Brainstorms to get rid of excess lands, which may or may not be very strong.

I, at least, am going to start building and testing a version of this with Land Tax. As far as I can tell, this deck has just about the strongest shell to start abusing it, so it's time to see if it works out or not.

[infiniteJ]

I love this deck, and Thalia seems perfect here. Incidentally, landtax looks pretty bad in a deck with 2-3 basics. If you add more basics, you subtract from the fetches and brainstorm effectiveness.

I've considered it for GP Atlanta and it's on the short list. But how in the hell does it beat Maverick? I haven't playtested any but force/daze are bad there, the manadisruption does little, they trump us with knights and oozes, and they have qasali pridemages to hit our jittes. Post board they can bring in Linvala, Gideon, or Garruk Relentless and trump us again. I'm not sure what can be done.

One option is to bring Snapcaster into the mix. He'll up our spot removal quota. Board in Path to exiles or Gutshots and you might stand a chance. I used to be able to beat bant using Revoker on Pridemage, then land a sword. But bant had as many dead cards as us and no GSZ to find the pridemage.

If anyone has a lot of experience with this matchup, or any ideas, I'm open to advice.

[colo]

I shelved my UW Tempo (with Meddling Mage in the flex spots, which I still believe to be a strong choice if you know how to play) just a few days after Maverick began hitting the Austrian metagame with full force (which was A LOT earlier than in the US), but my secret sauce plan against them was Hibernation. Dunno how well that'd have worked in practise, though.

[infiniteJ]

I'm not sure Hibernation does enough, although resetting an ooze is always helpful, as is taking out the hierarchs. You could go the route of RUG and have 4 submerge in the board. This along with some revokers, paths, or gutshots could sway the matchup to closer to even post board. Stillmoon cavalier could be decent but probably doesn't have the damage output we need to turn the game around when we don't have consistent jitte access. Disenchant maybe?

[colo]

I think Abolish is better than Disenchant in UW Tempo, as you usually end up piling up land in your hand anyway.

Stillmoon Cavalier is one hell of an underrated card imo, but this is probably not its decks - esp. since your Vial shouldn't be ticked up to 3.

[lavafrogg]

If anyone wants to re build uw tempo they need to start with the Canadian shell and figure out what to replace nimble mongoose with(or play bant tempo like a boss).

The problem with land tax is there is no way to abuse it effectively in anything but miracle.dec right now. And even that is sketch.

[1337erhosen]

With the unbanning of Land Tax, I think it could get a little better.

I, at least, am going to start building and testing a version of this with Land Tax. As far as I can tell, this deck has just about the strongest shell to start abusing it, so it's time to see if it works out or not.

Definitely agree with this. The interaction of Land Tax and Daze is just too strong to ignore. I'll be testing a list all week to play in a Super IQ next Sunday. Here's what I have so far:

4 Serra Avenger
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt

2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Land Tax
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains

[Star|Scream]

Definitely agree with this. The interaction of Land Tax and Daze is just too strong to ignore. I'll be testing a list all week to play in a Super IQ next Sunday. Here's what I have so far:

4 Serra Avenger
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Mother of Runes
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt

2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Land Tax
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains

How do you plan to abuse land tax with 5 basics? That's 1 and 2/3 activations.

[Paul45p]

did anyone see the deck craig wescoe used in the SCG-event yesterday?
it used gilded drake and saving grasp to steel opposing creatures.
what do you think of the idea? it looked kind of cool imo.:cool:

[lavafrogg]

Saving grasp might be a card that we can build around to an interesting fish brew. It is cheap enough, unlike momentary blink, and can abuse some interesting 187 abilities ie drake, snapcaster. Hmm

[Paul45p]

thats what i thought aswell. especially with a vial on 2 it can get pretty nasty.
wescoe played meddling mage and jötun grunt in addition to snapcaster and drake.

[lavafrogg]

Wherever you start, I still feel anything called U(x) Tempo should start with 4 delver of secrets.

Right now I am sitting at:

Creatures(15)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Serra Avenger
4 Mother of Runes
3 SFM

Instants (19)
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce

Sorceries(4)
4 Ponder

Artifacts (3)
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of X+Y

Lands (18)
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Plains
1 Island

Sideboard (15)
4 Meddling Mages
4 Tormod's Crypts
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Path to Exile

I really miss all the casual wayfarer garbage you get to pull in the more traditional lists...

[JJ-JKidd]

Wheres Wescoe's list? And has anyone tried a list with Standstill(s)?

[david.gerco]

From what I managed to see, Wescoe's list is pretty awesome and contains something like this:

Creatures:
4x Gilded Drake (4)
x Jötun Grunt (2)
x Meddling Mage (3)
x Snapcaster Mage (4)
x Stoneforge Mystic (3)

Lands:
x Island (5)
x Plains (3)
4x Tundra (4)
4x Flooded Strand (4)
x Fetchlands (4)

Other Spells:
4x Aether Vial (4)
4x Swords to Plowshares (4)
4x Saving Grasp (4)
4x Brainstorm (4)
2-4x Gitaxian Probe (2)
2-4x Ponder (4)
1x Umezawa's Jitte (1)
1x Batterskull (1)

Sideboard:
x Enlightned Tutor
1x Swamp
1x Underground Sea
x Perish
x Engineered Plague
x Pithing Needle


Maybe he has also Spell Pierce and 1 more Umezawa's Jitte in the sideboard...The rest I really don't know. Anyone could get his list? :)
The numbers in brackets are the possible numbers...

PS: btw, interesting choice from Wescoe to choose Mirror Entity with the Meddling Mage instead of Glimpse...Any comments on that?

[Esper3k]

Pretty interesting list. No FoW or Daze though?

[1337erhosen]

How do you plan to abuse land tax with 5 basics? That's 1 and 2/3 activations.

You don't understand. The whole point of Land Tax is to turn Brainstorm into Ancestral Recall. You're not actually playing the basics. You just get all 5 out of your deck, play brainstorm, put the basics back, and then search them out again. You only need the activations after you Brainstorm, and by then you have basics to search out again.

You might play out one or two basics, but if you ever draw any other land you're playing that first. You might need more basics if you were planning on playing them out, but you're not because you've got Vial and Wasteland. You just keep them in your hand to abuse with Brainstorm.

The land tax version is forced to be super focused around Brainstorm, and that's why it's playing 4 Snapcaster Mage. What makes it good is that every Brainstorm basically reads: Draw 3 Cards. You play the same strategy as RUG Tempo of playing the least amount of lands to make your topdecks optimal, and in addition your Brainstorms are just better.

This version plays the control deck against aggro and combo and plays aggro against control. You have lots of disruption backed up with the card advantage to win the long game that you force your opponents into.

[lavafrogg]

So your adding 4 dead cards to make yourself brainstorm better? SFM has better things to do than flash back brainstorms all day long. Change the slots to 4 ponders and you will get better results and not need to have less lands in play than an opponent.

Brainstorm becomes an ancestral on its own with the inclusion of fetch-lands, that is why the card is so stupid good.

Land Tax just isn't that good anymore.

[Star|Scream]

You don't understand. The whole point of Land Tax is to turn Brainstorm into Ancestral Recall. You're not actually playing the basics. You just get all 5 out of your deck, play brainstorm, put the basics back, and then search them out again. You only need the activations after you Brainstorm, and by then you have basics to search out again.

You might play out one or two basics, but if you ever draw any other land you're playing that first. You might need more basics if you were planning on playing them out, but you're not because you've got Vial and Wasteland. You just keep them in your hand to abuse with Brainstorm.

The land tax version is forced to be super focused around Brainstorm, and that's why it's playing 4 Snapcaster Mage. What makes it good is that every Brainstorm basically reads: Draw 3 Cards. You play the same strategy as RUG Tempo of playing the least amount of lands to make your topdecks optimal, and in addition your Brainstorms are just better.

This version plays the control deck against aggro and combo and plays aggro against control. You have lots of disruption backed up with the card advantage to win the long game that you force your opponents into.

Why don't you just use squadron hawk then? With vial doesn't it do the same thing? And then you have a deck full of flying jitte holders that actually do something, even in multiples.

[lavafrogg]

+1 starscream, but hawk is crap, just play cards that don't suck.

[david.gerco]

Pretty interesting list. No FoW or Daze though?


No FoW .. Daze I believe he didn't have either.

[lavafrogg]

I imagine the opponents played around blue counter magic all day long just due to the colors of the deck. Pretty ninja of him.

[TraxDaMax]

That deck looks so broken really. And so fun to play too! Don't think I've been so excited to see and play a deck like this since manaless dredge :D

Bummer in the video he loses, but game coule have probably gone both ways. Especially with the Perish tech after sideboarding. Wow, that was just mindblowing!

[lavafrogg]

New List looks promising-

4 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Plains
1 Karakas

2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Vapor Snag
4 Path to Exile
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

Board:
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
2 Echoing Truth
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Oblivion Ring

Equipment on a geist seems fine to me... Feel like swords to plowshares could be the correct card...

[JonhLightning]

I will be giving this deck a try at my local tourney, I will be playing this list:

3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Vapor Snag
4 Swords to plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

20 lands.

I'm not too sure about the 4 force of will MD, Not sure if spell pierce would be good in here too. I tried Geist of saint traft as a 4-off, but drawing multiple isn't that good. Vapor Snag and Snapcaster Mage were really good during my play testing.

[Sentient6]

Hey,

I want to try out a similar list but I really want to play mom in place of the vapor snag. Yes, it does lower the spell count but I think the card is overall more powerful. Also has anyone tried Augur of Bolas yet?

[lordofthepit]

Would Judge's Familiar fit in this deck? Both the flying ability and the taxing counter have synergy with the deck's strategy (i.e. slap a Jitte on a cheap creature and activate Weathered Wayfarer).

[colo]

Yes of course. The questions, however, are: what to take out for it, and will it be enough to make the deck viable in today's metagame?

[xfxf]

Anybody still playing with this, I'm seeing UW Fish doing some number of T8 around Europe.

[Kanti]

I've actually been playing an Esper Tempo list, and have been loving it. Lingering Souls, and the sb options that you get, make it worth it I think.


Creatures [10]
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells [31]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
3 Lingering Souls
3 Ponder
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Lands [19]
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea

Sideboard:
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Perish
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Detention Sphere
2 Timely Reinforcements


The discard is brought in vs combo, and Tundra control along with the Extractions. They are also pretty decent against Goblins, where you can go +2 Explosives, +1 Timely Reinforcements. Perish is for Maverick, obviously. Spheres are my plan vs RUG and SnT decks.

I'm pretty happy with the deck though I want to fit Mother of Runes somewhere, but can't ;/. Still, Delver+Stoneforge is brutal at times.

edit: I honestly don't find this new UW Tempo deck to be better than the old creature package. Though the old creature package looked janky as hell it's actually much more solid than relying on flipping Delver. With the addition of Thalia (I think the bitch is perfect for the deck) we can make an even more solid UW Tempo deck.

I'm not sure if it would be better to go with the full x4 Daze, or x3 Daze, 1 Pierce. Something to consider would to go x3 Daze, x2 Pierce, x3 Vial, though I'm not sure that would be all that good.


Lands
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Karakas

Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Weathered Wayfarer
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull


Sideboard:
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Detention Sphere
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sphere of Law
1 Worship


I'm running the miser Geist over the 4th Clique since Clique can get to be horribly in multiples. I actually wonder if Fathom Seer would be better here (draw 2 vs insane clock...). Though I've always hated Seer, as a 1-of it woudn't be that bad.

All in all I feel that the deck is pretty decent. The Clique lock is a lot stronger than running 5 million Fathom Seers so I don't see why it wasn't added before hand. Especially when JANKY shit like Vexing Sphinx was added.

This list is also very good with Vial (a lot better than any Fathom Seer build) as you have more SFM's, and have the Clique lock (pretty huge).

[Tinefol]

A whole lot of blue 16 cards for Force of Will, which is close to unplayable, since Brainstorm is so important in the deck, and you never want to pitch it.

[Kanti]

I've actually been feeling the same way lately and cut the Serra Avengers and a Daze for +1 Geist, +2 Spell Pierce. Not sure this is correct though as x4 Daze help ensure a protected Stoneforge Mystic or Aether Vial. I opted to run SFM+Batterskull in this deck as it really runs the most ways to protect the damn thing than any other deck I can think of.

[Anusien]

Lyev Skyknight seems unreal good here.

[lavafrogg]

I have been reading up on old school temporary solution decklists for fun. Enlightened tutur is the best tutor that remains, can't we find a way to break it in a UW shell?


4 Flooded Strand
4 Adarkar Wastes
7 Plains
6 Island
1 Seat of Synod
1 Ancient Den

3 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Silver Knight
4 Gilded Drake
4 Meddling Mage
3 Exalted Angel

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Parallax Wave
1 Parallax Tide
1 Energy Flux
1 Worship
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard:
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Parallax Wave
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Seal of Removal
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Energy Flux
3 Chill
3 Parallax Tide


Even as this list it looks legacy playable with spell pierces in the board. It has the ability to wrath or geddon an opponent plus enlightened tutor for whatever hate it wanted to pack, hello RIP...

lol, im still reading the stock list...

against goblins you get Silver Knight plus Worship, Meddling Mage is for storm, Waterfront Bouncer is for Reanimator, after you stifle the draw 7 effect, parallax wave is for maverick, the parallax tide is for miracles, so funny....

You can most likely keep a solid manabase due to the tide/stifle interaction and the want to hit 4 mana.

[lavafrogg]

Double post and a necro, but first: What happened to the UW Tempo guys? pietermeir and Forbidian i think? They used to run this thread... Secondly, has anyone tried land tax in the UW tempo shell?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

They were banned.

[lavafrogg]

They were banned.

Banned? Are we allowed to talk about it?

BTW Im fucking retarded and am reading the last two pages of the thread where I am involved in conversations about the lists I have posted and asked questions about....

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

I recently started toying with a UW Tempo list at my local shop. I had really been enjoying both RUG and UW Miracles, but wanted to try something new. So more or less on the fly, I put together the following monstrosity. This is what I could reconstruct from memory of the "Vaporblade" list that did well at a GP awhile back. I apologize in advance as the list itself is a ways off and the results suffered due to that. I will clarify further below. This is the list I was trying to recreate: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/fred-edelkamp-vaporblade/

However this is what I ended up putting together:

Maindeck-60
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Vapor Snag
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
1 Glacial Fortress
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Moorland Haunt
4 Wasteland

Sideboard-15
3 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Path to Exile
3 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Submerge

I played against RUG (1-1-1), Affinity (1-1-1), and Walking Dead (0-2). So my record as stated here is not that exciting. I did learn a good bit about the deck from playing it. In the MU with RUG, I was able to stabilize in game 3 but couldn't find a threat to close out the game. I think this match up is pretty reasonable for us, as a resolved and protected Batterskull basically means they can't win the game. Additionally, an active Jitte is really tough for them to deal with too. Overall our removal is better than theirs, so we can afford to burn ours early since we typically should have a stronger mid-late game due to Snappy rebuying removal and countermagic. I made a really big mistake in my first sideboarded game, as I boarded in Rest in Peace without boarding out Snapcasters. This was a pretty sorry oversight on my part. Then in game 3 I boarded out the Snapcasters which contributed to the lack of threats to close out the final game. In hindsight, while Rest in Peace is straight baller against RUG Delver, it is not the right piece of graveyard hate to be running in this deck, as it non-bos with one of the key card advantage engines in the deck. After consulting the above link for the actual decklist, it would appear that Jotan Grunt and Surgical Extraction are, indeed, the correct graveyard hate cards to be playing in this deck's sideboard. Grunt is a great threat while also nullifying silly Goyfs and Geese.

Affinity was surprisingly difficult. For this matchup I would suggest the inclusion of Spell Snare and Spell Pierces for Cranial Plating and Tezzeret. Then again, this advice might need to be mitigated depending on the specific configuration of the Affinity build. Honestly the only things you really need to deal with are Tezzeret, Etched Champion, and Cranial Plating. The rest of their deck is pretty bad. Neither my board or the one from the GP address this deck particullay well. So if Affinity is part of your meta you may want to dedicate some slots to it.

As for the MU versus Walking Dead, I mulliganed to 6 game one and 5 in game two (on the play both games)... which for a deck that is based on so much targeted discard, makes their job a hell of a lot easier. I will say, that in game two, I made a vital Brainstorm error. Had I taken a Vapor Snag over a Batterskull, I would have been able to clear a path for lethal damage. I forgot to include the -1 life from the Vapor Snag in my assessment of the game state. As for the board and this MU, I think that between Grunt and Extraction we should be covered pretty well.

I have a few more overarching thoughts on the deck that I feel also need to be shared. I think I was a little too ambitious with the manabase. I would attribute some of the troubles that I had in winning some of my games to land and color production count. As the list above shows, I was only running 18 lands. The GP list was running 19. I think that this deck needs to be in the 19-21 range. I think I may try 19 as the GP list suggests and then work from there. Additionally you will notice that I had a total of 5 colorless producing lands. These led to both of the mulligans in round three against the Walking Dead. While mana denial can win games, I don't think destabilizing our mana base is worth the risk. I think the last point worth noting was that I squeezed in Stifles at the expense of other spells. I think after playing the deck in this configuration, the Stifles should be cut. So I will be moving my list more toward the GP Edelkamp list for my next tourney. I will give some findings on the updates in a week or two.

Proposed Maindeck-60
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Vapor Snag
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Flex Slot-Sword of X and Y

Sideboard-15
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
3 Jotan Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Submerge

Thanks for the read! If you have any thoughts about this deck/improvements that could help it out, please comment. Let's get some discussion on this deck rolling again.

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

As I mentioned a week or two ago, I have been working on tempo oriented Vaporblade list. I ran it again this week at locals. I ended 2-0-1. I was awarded a bye, I 2-0ed High Tide and prize split with Affinity. However the Affinity player and I played it out and I took the match 2-1. Below you can see the list I was running. It is a little different from the list I proposed in my previous post. It ran pretty well and overall I was pleasantly surprised.

Maindeck-60
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Vapor Snag
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas

Sideboard-15
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disenchant
3 Jotan Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Submerge

Well this week we fired our tournament off with only 7 players. I was the lucky guy who got the Round 1 bye. this was good for rankings but poor if you are testing out a new deck...

Anyway in Round 2 I was paired against High Tide with Candles. Preboard the above list has 8 completely dead cards in StP and Vapor Snag. Also arguably SFM is a bit slow. I would be interested in hearing what other think on SFM in this match up. However my Game 1 opener was pretty nutty. It was 2 Delver, Brainstorm, Daze, FoW, and Tundra/Fetch. While my opponent cantripped to set up his hand, I played a Turn 1 delver, followed by a turn two delver. They both flipped due to an EOT Brainstorm. Then on my turn 3 I had found a Geist and third land. So I crashed for 6, and cast Geist. He was forced to go off here because he had fetched and Probed opting to pay life. He thought for a minute or two and scooped.

Sideboarding: -4 Vapor Snag, -4 StP, -2 SFM, -1Jitte; +3 Spell Pierce, +2 Surgical Extraction, +2 Flusterstorm, +3 Jotan Grunt

I boarded in this way to improve my control elements while also quickening the clock. Jotan Grunts are poor in multiples, but if you can land him turn two, he is a lot more threatening than a SFM. Anyway, Game 2 I kept a bit of a loose hand. It was 3 land, delver, 2 Grunt, and Spell Pierce. I was on the draw and drew into a Snapcaster. I led with Delver into Grunt, the delver natural-flipping on turn two. My opponent got stuck on two land. This led to a weird scenario of the grunt not really being able to get much work done. He only got in for 4. But I guess that is better than SFM as the game ended on turn 7. I Snapcastered during my opponet's turn to flashback the spell pierce that has been previously used on a cantrip. The Delver and Snappy rode the rest of the way.

Round 3 against Affinity we decided to prize split and played the match out for some tokens (and in my case the experience). Game 1 I made a few really poor decisions based on when and which creatures to use my removal on. This led to my opponent's board being double Master of Etherium and like 7 artifact lands... yea that sucks.

Game 2 I brought in the 2 Disenchants and 1 Oblivion Ring for 3 of the 4 Dazes. While on the first or Second turn Daze can be great here, turn 2 or 3 on it become a near blank. If you think there will be a good amount of this in your meta you may want to devote a few more slots to it. This game my opener was 3 land, Delver, Disenchant, Geist, and a Vapor Snag. I led with the delver, which flipped on my next turn naturally. I attacked for 3 and played a second land, keeping up the disenchant for anything scary. My opponent really didn't do much this game. His turn one was like artifact land into double Menminte and a Springleaf Drum. His turn two was an Inkmoth Nexus and an attack for 2. My turn three was third land, attack for 3, Geist. My opponent cast Mox Opal and Thoughtcast, apparently blanking on the double draw. On my turn 4 I attack with both guys, and making an angel so for a total of 9 power. My opponent triple blocks the Geist with his Memnites and Inkmoth. This ended in a straight blowout. I Disenchanted the Nexus and Snagged a Memnite both pre-damage. He ended up taking 7 damage and the point of life loss from the Snag and losing two permanents. In his next turn, he surveyed the board and his hand for a few minutes and scooped. Apparently, Geist + Snag is pretty good at making people scoop.

Game 3 was absolutely nuts. I got turn 1 and 2 Galv Blasted quickly dropping my life total to 12. I did get a SFM and Jitte online quickly. However the gamestate at turn 4 was me with an face up delver, SFM with jitte and 2 counters at 9 life, to my opponent's 2 Memnites, and Etched Champion with 2 counters from a Ravager and him at 21. My opponent kept swinging with the 4 power, unblockable Champion hoping to topdeck another burn spell. I kept crashing with my Jitted SFM. The game ended with me at 1 life and 8 counters on the Jitte to my opponent's lone Champion and Artifact lands. I managed to sneak the game out.

Overall I think the list is pretty awesome. It can have fast explosive draws like RUG Delver but it can also grind better, like a Stoneblade list. I know it doesn't fill either role exactly as well as the aforementioned decks, but the ability of the deck to transition from tempo aggression to a midrangey strategy is pretty powerful. The adjustments to the mana base helped a lot. The deck doesn't really want to destroy opposing lands at the expense of its own, i.e. Wasteland. It really want to make land drops up to about 3 or 4, so it can cast Geist and Snapcaster its high impact spells. The sideboard might need a little bit of work. I think for Combo and graveyard decks the board is pretty great. However there are a few slots that I am not completely sure of. The Oblivion Ring and Disenchants might be iffy for a larger event but for the locals that I was playing in, there were great. I might try to work in an additional piece of Affinity love for locals next week, although I am not sure what it would be. I am open for suggestions.

As always, thanks for the reading. I would really like to get some feedback on my configuration, results, and sideboarding. So please, post your thoughts or shoot me a message!

[civet five]

this is excellent, thanks for posting!

I'm particularly glad you had the guts to rotate your flex spot from a Sword to a Spell Pierce - I'm always tempted to run 3 equipment in a Stoneforge package, but I often think 2 is the right call and I struggle to do it. With that sad, did you ever want a 3rd Sword, and if so, which one (my default is Fire and Ice but again, I think that's nostalgia and I just force myself to believe its the best in an unknown meta). Was the Spell Pierce good, or was it more about opening up that 15th sideboard slot?

Also, did you find Swords to Plowshare anti-synergistic with the deck, and would Path to Exile have been better now that you aren't running Stifle and Wasteland?

[Sturtzilla]

I'm particularly glad you had the guts to rotate your flex spot from a Sword to a Spell Pierce - I'm always tempted to run 3 equipment in a Stoneforge package, but I often think 2 is the right call and I struggle to do it. With that said, did you ever want a 3rd Sword, and if so, which one (my default is Fire and Ice but again, I think that's nostalgia and I just force myself to believe its the best in an unknown meta). Was the Spell Pierce good, or was it more about opening up that 15th sideboard slot?

This is actually a great question and it has a bit of a funny answer. So the original GP list has a Sword of Feast and Famine in the maindeck. I thought that I had one, but I must have traded/sold it at some point. So part of the reason that the SFM package was only 2 equipment was due to my collection missing that specific card. I think in an unknown metagame it is a toss up between Fire and Ice and Feast and Famine. This further comes down to what role you are playing in a given match up. I see SoFaI as more of an aggro card. It gives you the ability to clear the way for your guys/quicken your clock, while also giving you more options/threats. I see SoFaF as more of the mid-range grindy option. It lets you deny your opponent resources while letting you gain some incremental advantage by maximizing your mana usage. So analyzing your meta is probably the thing to do. If you think you are going to be the aggressor more often, then SoFaI is probably better. If you aren't the beatdown, then SoFaF is probably right. Additionally if you think you are going to see a lot of Goyfs... the pro-green is really a big deal.

As far as the Spell Pierce being good in the maindeck... that is kind of hard to determine, as it was a one-of. The only game where it really mattered was Game 2 versus High Tide. I cast and snap cast one. In Game 2 I had all 4 in the deck, so speaking to the relevance of the maindeck 1-of is rather difficult. I think having access to all 4 is probably necessary to give the deck some real hate for combo. As I mentioned in the report, decks like High Tide (ANT, Belcher, TES... etc) aren't the best Game 1, as the main has 8 dead or nearly dead cards. On this topic, I might try for a 3-2 Daze/Spell Pierce split in the future. This would be because Daze slows down your 2 and 3 drops/SFM activations.



Also, did you find Swords to Plowshare anti-synergistic with the deck, and would Path to Exile have been better now that you aren't running Stifle and Wasteland?

That is a good question. In my specific meta it is probably right to play the Paths. As there are RUG, BUG, Sam Black Zombies and Affinity as the aggro decks. So the chances of them getting basics would be very low. In general I did not see the life gain as an issue. I guess it could be in some match ups... which might be a good argument to either run Path or run SoFaF with Swords since your games will probably be more attrition based.

[aznepyon7]

Greetings All!

As I mentioned a week or two ago, I have been working on tempo oriented Vaporblade list. I ran it again this week at locals. I ended 2-0-1. I was awarded a bye, I 2-0ed High Tide and prize split with Affinity. However the Affinity player and I played it out and I took the match 2-1. Below you can see the list I was running. It is a little different from the list I proposed in my previous post. It ran pretty well and overall I was pleasantly surprised.

Maindeck-60
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Vapor Snag
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas

Sideboard-15
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disenchant
3 Jotan Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Submerge

Overall I think the list is pretty awesome. It can have fast explosive draws like RUG Delver but it can also grind better, like a Stoneblade list. I know it doesn't fill either role exactly as well as the aforementioned decks, but the ability of the deck to transition from tempo aggression to a midrangey strategy is pretty powerful. The adjustments to the mana base helped a lot. The deck doesn't really want to destroy opposing lands at the expense of its own, i.e. Wasteland. It really want to make land drops up to about 3 or 4, so it can cast Geist and Snapcaster its high impact spells. The sideboard might need a little bit of work. I think for Combo and graveyard decks the board is pretty great. However there are a few slots that I am not completely sure of. The Oblivion Ring and Disenchants might be iffy for a larger event but for the locals that I was playing in, there were great. I might try to work in an additional piece of Affinity love for locals next week, although I am not sure what it would be. I am open for suggestions.

As always, thanks for the reading. I would really like to get some feedback on my configuration, results, and sideboarding. So please, post your thoughts or shoot me a message!

Congrats on your finish.

I have a couple comments.

First off I think the Glacial Fortress is a really bad idea. I would put basics instead. I also think that the land count should go up to 20 and that you should run the Wastelands. Those are so good in tempo decks and you need them to screw long term grindy decks, especially PF Jund. It's especially important because everything you run dies to PF. Also with DRS, they can out speed you, especially on play in G2 or G3. Because of this, I think Spell Snare is better than Spell Pierce, not to mention hard counters rule.

What do you think of Geist? Personally I've never liked it but maybe you might think differently. I prefer Clique; it's seriously good against combo and kills Liliana and is so good when you need it.

Have you considered running 2 Jitte? Seriously this card gets blown up all the time so I don't feel ever having a 2nd is redundant. Not to mention you are more heavily reliant on equips in order for your creatures to stand up against other fast decks like TA or Jund. How is Batterskull working for you by the way?

Personally I prefer to have 3 Surgical Extractions because flashing them back with Snapcaster, nabbing a PF is just epic. Also I think Rest in Peace, despite not working well with Snapcaster, is worth a shot. It hoses GY based decks so bad and you aren't really reliant on the GY. I don't think you should run the Submerges in this deck if you have Vapor Snag and you don't have land denial.

[Sturtzilla]

First off I think the Glacial Fortress is a really bad idea. I would put basics instead. I also think that the land count should go up to 20 and that you should run the Wastelands. Those are so good in tempo decks and you need them to screw long term grindy decks, especially PF Jund. It's especially important because everything you run dies to PF. Also with DRS, they can out speed you, especially on play in G2 or G3. Because of this, I think Spell Snare is better than Spell Pierce, not to mention hard counters rule.

As for the mana base and specific land decisions, initially I just ran the list that was as close to Fred Edelkamp's GP top 8 list. His version played 2 Glacial Fortress. There are a few very narrow reasons to play Glacial Fortress or Mystic Gate. The big one is Choke. Having a land that will still allow you to produce blue mana under a choke is pretty good. It is also a safeguard against having your Tundras Extracted. It is possible in the right type of meta, running more basics could be right; however, Fortress essentially lets you play 2 extra Tundras. If you are worried about getting Wasted out of the game, there are 4 basics in the list that can fetched out. So it easily possible to play around Wasteland.

As far as running Wasteland, I would like to work it into the deck. However when you are trying to get above 3 mana to cast Geist or Snapcast spells, wasteland sets you back in addition to setting your opponent back. I intend to look into this in my testing over the next few weeks. I agree that Wasteland is awesome but it is really taxing on this deck in ways it isn't in other tempo decks. Most other tempo decks don't have to get to 3 land, so running Wasteland is easy and powerful. Here it convolutes the manabase, making snapcasting difficult and potentially slowing down your board development.

As for Spell Pierce versus Spell Snare discussion, I think that comes down to your match up. Snare is pretty good versus Jund hitting Goyf, Confidant, Punishing Fire, and Hymn. That is a decent cross section of the deck; yet, it you are playing against RUG you have 4 targets, Tarmogoyf. If you are playing against High Tide you only have Merchant Scroll. So I am not totally sold one way or the other. I think that more testing is warranted to define the right balance for the counter package.

Here is the link to the GP coverage where this list Top 8ed.

https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpatl12/welcome#9



What do you think of Geist? Personally I've never liked it but maybe you might think differently. I prefer Clique; it's seriously good against combo and kills Liliana and is so good when you need it.

It really sounds like you have a Jund heavy meta. Geist puts on a much better clock than Clique in addition to being protected from most removal. That said, its lack of size can really make attacking hard in some situations. That is why SFM is pretty important. Using equipment or Vaporsnags to keep your Geist alive are very important. The tempo advantage on Snag is also awesome. I am inclined to think the Geist is correct, due to the speed of its clock.



Have you considered running 2 Jitte? Seriously this card gets blown up all the time so I don't feel ever having a 2nd is redundant. Not to mention you are more heavily reliant on equips in order for your creatures to stand up against other fast decks like TA or Jund. How is Batterskull working for you by the way?

Well again I have only been testing the deck for a few weeks. That said there are matchups where either equipment is just amazing. I don't think I want a second Jitte in the maindeck. Naturally drawing the equipment is super awkward. Running 2 in the main would increase that awkward draw chance while also creating narrow scenarios where you have both in hand. Jitte might deserve a slot in the sideboard for match ups where your opponent is also running a Jitte. I think that is where I would draw the line though.

This deck runs essentially 8 removal spells and Snapcasters so removing opposing treats is typically pretty easy to do. So other fast decks like TA or Jund should be reasonable.

Batterskull gives the deck a good way to grind out midrangey match ups and also a way to trump aggro decks. When it is good, it essentially wins you the game single handed. In some combo match ups like High Tide, it is just another beater. It isn't great but it isn't terrible. In match ups where your life total matters, save maybe the UW control decks, it is good to very good.



Personally I prefer to have 3 Surgical Extractions because flashing them back with Snapcaster, nabbing a PF is just epic. Also I think Rest in Peace, despite not working well with Snapcaster, is worth a shot. It hoses GY based decks so bad and you aren't really reliant on the GY. I don't think you should run the Submerges in this deck if you have Vapor Snag and you don't have land denial.

Again it sounds like your meta is all Punishing Jund. I haven't been able to get a good sampling against graveyard oriented strategies. Surgical is amazing especially in tandem with Snapcaster. However if your plan is to run both Surgical and Rest in Peace in a Snapcster deck, you are really setting your self up for some awkward spots. I ran RiP in my initial configuration and it was really good, but as it turns off your Snapcasters, you lose your ability to gain ground in the mid game due to rebuying draw/removal. If you bring in RiP in place of Snapcaster you fix this non-bo problem, but you lower your threat density. Snapcaster is no badass beater, but there are games that he clears the board and gets in for 6+ damage. So I will agree that there might need to be some tweaking done to the sideboard. I don't think RiP is the correct way to go.

As for Submerge, I think with the Jotan Grunts RUG and BUG should be reasonable. You are making their guys smaller and getting a pretty solid body. I need to work on those match ups post board a bit more. It might be true that Submerge could be cut; I haven't done enough testing yet to know.

[Sturtzilla]

I have been trying to think if there would be any cards that would be good additions to this deck/sideboard. Both Azorius Charm and Hindering Light seem like they could be useful. The charm gives us another cantrip in addition to a card that can serve the same role as Vapor Snag. We would lose the -1 point of life loss but would get to blank the next draw an opponent would get. I am not sure if that is worth the additional cost of :w:. Hindering light is very intriguing. Legacy is all about spells that target either you or your creatures (StP, PtE, Lightning Bolt, Disfigure, Dismember, Discard, etc). So a two mana hard counter that let you draw a card seems really good. I might try testing out these over the next few weeks too. Thoughts on this would be appreciated.

[Sturtzilla]

I am back to report about this week's event. I ended (1-1-1). I lost to the mirror or UW Stoneblade not entirely sure what his deck was (0-2), beat Dredge (2-0), and drew with Soul Sisters (1-1-1). I am a little frusterated with these results. But that is the way cards works sometimes.

Mirror/UW Blade

My opponent won the die roll and chose to play. I had to ship back a one lander and go to six. The six was reasonable but I was quickly run over by a turn 1 delver naturally flipping, followed by a turn 2 delver (which also naturally flipped). I cast a SFM on my turn 2 which was FoWed, with an open mana on the other side of the table, invalidating my Daze. I did resolve a SFM on turn 3, but by this time I was too low on life and died a turn or two later. I think this game was a lost due to my opponent drawing hot and my draw being a little less than awesome. I wasn't able to hit any removal to slow his clock and by the time I got Batterskull in play, I was already netting a life loss of 2 per turn. In game 2, I kept what looked to be a reasonable hand, however, I never hit a third land. This became a large issue when my opponent cast a turn 3 Geist, which I was forced to FoW. I drew another blank, and he cast a second Geist on his turn 4. I finally hit my 3rd land and cast my Geist. At this point in the game we were both down to a card or two, and he was able to Snapcaster a Counterspell, to counter a SFM I cast. I drew dead the rest of the game and died due to a Snapcaster Mage. We played another game for fun. My deck actually behaved and I managed to win, so I guess I would chalk this specific match up to poor draws/luck, mine being not so good and my opponent's being pretty good.

Dredge

There isn't really much to say here. I got a quick Batterskull in both games. My opponent didn't really have super fast draws either game. A Batterskull and a SoFaF managed to keep me alive due to lifegain and untapping to be able to cast and Snapcast StP and PtE. I will note, that while the pro-black is awesome here, the opponent getting a discard is not so good.

Soul Sister's

The guy that plays this deck only occasionally shows up and either plays this deck or mono-red budget storm. At any rate Game 1, I got stuck on 2 lands and wasn't able to Snapcast any PtEs and died to Serra's Ascendant. Game 2 the deck cooperated and I was able to grind him out. I won on the backs of Batterskull and Jitte. These were both just devastating. Game 3 started on turns. So we ended up drawing. We actually played the game out though. I was really curious about the matchup and wanted a bit more experience. I was able to get an active Jitte in this game and it just took over the game. I was able to power through his guys and kill any scary threats. So this opponent and I both ended (1-1-1) and he ended up placing due to tiebreakers. I was a little bit salty as I did manage to beat him. But again sometimes that is how cards pans out... your opponent has a better draw or your games go too long.


So in overall observations, I tried out Path to Exile this week over Swords to Plowshares. I think it was the appropriate call for the meta as half (4/7) of the opposing decks don't have basics; however, I just got super lucky and got to play two of the deck that actually have basics. I have become less excited with Daze. This might be because the intrinsic flaw in running Path and Daze against decks with basics. However last week, I had found myself thinking that I wanted Spell Pierces. Vapor Snag was boarded out a good bit. It is really good when you are attacking with Geist, but otherwise is a little underpowered. It is possible that the snags could be changed to some combination of countermagic and removal. I think that there is an additional argument to be made for the 20th land. I would attribute two of my game losses to getting stuck at 2 lands and not being able to snapcast spells. I think the 20th land would help with this... however it would make the deck more prone to flooding. I think the trade off is probably worth it. The last thought I have would be I might need to quicken my play as I did go to time in the last round. That might due to my lack of familiarity with the deck, my opponent gaining a shitload of life, or maybe a combination of the two. As always thanks for reading!

[Sturtzilla]

While I was having decent results with this list above, I wanted a card with a bit more raw power than that of Vapor Snag. So I tried out Lightning Bolt in the Vapor Snag slot. I know that technically makes the list a UWr delver/blade deck. So I have included a link to my list and some thoughts on the deck in the appropriate thread.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25531-UWR-Delver&p=712441&viewfull=1#post712441

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All!

Here is a quick update on the changes I have made to the UW Delver list I have been playing. Enjoy!

Maindeck-60
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas

There is one card missing from the list if I counted correctly. I can't remember what it is offhand. Apparently it wasn't the important. So I guess it can be a flex slot.

Sideboard-15
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile
2 Disenchant
2 Jotan Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Detention Sphere
1 Elspeth, Kinght-Errant
2 Supreme Verdict

We had 4 round last night. I went 3-1 and ended in 3rd place out of 12 players. I beat Esper Stoneblade twice (both 2-0) and Belcher (2-1), while losing to Jund (0-2).

Esper Stoneblade: 2-0

I won the die roll and got off to the ideal start landing turn one delver. It naturally flipped. On my turn two, I attacked for three then resolved a SFM and found Batterskull. These plays matched up with my opponent's turn one Ponder and turn two SFM, finding Batterskull. On my turn three, I attacked for 3 with Delver and cast Swords on the opposing SFM. On his turn, he cast Thoughtseize. I responded by putting Batterskull into play off of my SFM. I showed him my hand and he took a FoW. At this point I beat uncontested for 7 twice for game. Game 2 was very similar. He cast a turn 2 SFM, which I Swordsed. I then followed up with my own. Mine lived to cheat in Batterskull, which got to hit him a few times. The game ended with my board of Giest of Saint Traft with a Batterskull equipped to it to his board of a few Spirits.

Belcher: 2-1

I won the die roll and began with Island, I knew that this opponent was either on Dredge or Storm of some type. He drew and cast Chrome Mox imprinting a red card. He attempted to cast Rite of Flame which I Spell Pierced. He passed. I cast Delver with a fetch up. He drew and passed. Delver did not flip. I attacked for 1, played a plains, cast SFM, and found Batterskull (there is probably some argument here to get Sword of Feast and Famine). Batterskull will get the kill faster; however, SoFaF will limit opposing resources. Well anyway, he bricked for a few turns, Delver flipped, SFM got Batterskull in, and I smashed a bunch. Game two, I mulliganed to a mediocre 6. It had FoW blue card and Spell Pierce, but no pressure. I expended all of my counter magic before I could get a good clock established. He was able to go off a turn or two before I had lethal. Game 3 was very similar to game 1. I had a good mix of counter magic and threats. He succumbed to three flipped delvers... death by triple delver, bad way to go.

Jund: 0-2

I was on the play in game 1. I don't really remember how this first game played out exactly. I expended all of my cards to keep him off of the board. On turn 4 he cast his last card, Bloodbraid which cascaded into Goyf. My board was 5 lands and I hand a fetch in hand, so I scooped. I looked at my top cards... I should have played it out as the top was Giest followed by SFM. My opponent was at 10 life to my 19. So I likely could have taken a hit or two from these guys and still stabilized by playing Geist into SFM for Batterskull. Game 2 was terrible. I mulliganed a Plains only opener. I had a reasonable hand at 6. However it had no counter magic and I got Hymned on turn 2. At this point was was basically in top deck mode and was quickly out gunned.

Esper Stoneblade: 2-0

These two games were very similar to round 1. We both played SFMs. I removed his. Got to land Batterskull and rode that to victory. Giest was also a big player in the match as he was never able to effectively fight it. I played out other threats first to take care of his counter magic. Geist and Batterskull were able to just get there.

Overall the deck ran very well. I was happy with the 20 lands and higher basic count. I didn't play any Wasteland heavy decks but felt much better prepared for them. I think the Stoneblade match up is very favorable. At least that is the way it seems, I never really felt like I was behind. As fort he Jund match up, I think some dedicated sideboard hate might be necessary. I came to Celestial Purge as a good way to fight them. It kills Deathright, Bob, Liliana, and Bloodbraid. Leaving Goyf as the only other threat... StP and PtE answer him and the others fine also. This would just be a better way to fight them early and late game with SCM. Additionally Purge would be decent against Goblins and BUG. It would be perfect versus Goblins in that it exiles any target with no downside. Against BUG it hits Deathrite, Bob, Liliana, Tombstalker... the exact threats here are more nebulous as the variant would need to be defined. However there are other decks in my meta that Purge would also serve as a decent substitution. I would love to hear thoughts on this card choice specifically.

As always, thanks for the reading.

[JJ-JKidd]

Greetings All!

Here is a quick update on the changes I have made to the UW Delver list I have been playing. Enjoy!

Maindeck-60
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Leak
4 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas

There is one card missing from the list if I counted correctly. I can't remember what it is offhand. Apparently it wasn't the important. So I guess it can be a flex slot.

Sideboard-15
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
1 Path to Exile
2 Disenchant
2 Jotan Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Detention Sphere
1 Elspeth, Kinght-Errant
2 Supreme Verdict

We had 4 round last night. I went 3-1 and ended in 3rd place out of 12 players. I beat Esper Stoneblade twice (both 2-0) and Belcher (2-1), while losing to Jund (0-2).

Esper Stoneblade: 2-0

I won the die roll and got off to the ideal start landing turn one delver. It naturally flipped. On my turn two, I attacked for three then resolved a SFM and found Batterskull. These plays matched up with my opponent's turn one Ponder and turn two SFM, finding Batterskull. On my turn three, I attacked for 3 with Delver and cast Swords on the opposing SFM. On his turn, he cast Thoughtseize. I responded by putting Batterskull into play off of my SFM. I showed him my hand and he took a FoW. At this point I beat uncontested for 7 twice for game. Game 2 was very similar. He cast a turn 2 SFM, which I Swordsed. I then followed up with my own. Mine lived to cheat in Batterskull, which got to hit him a few times. The game ended with my board of Giest of Saint Traft with a Batterskull equipped to it to his board of a few Spirits.

Belcher: 2-1

I won the die roll and began with Island, I knew that this opponent was either on Dredge or Storm of some type. He drew and cast Chrome Mox imprinting a red card. He attempted to cast Rite of Flame which I Spell Pierced. He passed. I cast Delver with a fetch up. He drew and passed. Delver did not flip. I attacked for 1, played a plains, cast SFM, and found Batterskull (there is probably some argument here to get Sword of Feast and Famine). Batterskull will get the kill faster; however, SoFaF will limit opposing resources. Well anyway, he bricked for a few turns, Delver flipped, SFM got Batterskull in, and I smashed a bunch. Game two, I mulliganed to a mediocre 6. It had FoW blue card and Spell Pierce, but no pressure. I expended all of my counter magic before I could get a good clock established. He was able to go off a turn or two before I had lethal. Game 3 was very similar to game 1. I had a good mix of counter magic and threats. He succumbed to three flipped delvers... death by triple delver, bad way to go.

Jund: 0-2

I was on the play in game 1. I don't really remember how this first game played out exactly. I expended all of my cards to keep him off of the board. On turn 4 he cast his last card, Bloodbraid which cascaded into Goyf. My board was 5 lands and I hand a fetch in hand, so I scooped. I looked at my top cards... I should have played it out as the top was Giest followed by SFM. My opponent was at 10 life to my 19. So I likely could have taken a hit or two from these guys and still stabilized by playing Geist into SFM for Batterskull. Game 2 was terrible. I mulliganed a Plains only opener. I had a reasonable hand at 6. However it had no counter magic and I got Hymned on turn 2. At this point was was basically in top deck mode and was quickly out gunned.

Esper Stoneblade: 2-0

These two games were very similar to round 1. We both played SFMs. I removed his. Got to land Batterskull and rode that to victory. Giest was also a big player in the match as he was never able to effectively fight it. I played out other threats first to take care of his counter magic. Geist and Batterskull were able to just get there.

Overall the deck ran very well. I was happy with the 20 lands and higher basic count. I didn't play any Wasteland heavy decks but felt much better prepared for them. I think the Stoneblade match up is very favorable. At least that is the way it seems, I never really felt like I was behind. As fort he Jund match up, I think some dedicated sideboard hate might be necessary. I came to Celestial Purge as a good way to fight them. It kills Deathright, Bob, Liliana, and Bloodbraid. Leaving Goyf as the only other threat... StP and PtE answer him and the others fine also. This would just be a better way to fight them early and late game with SCM. Additionally Purge would be decent against Goblins and BUG. It would be perfect versus Goblins in that it exiles any target with no downside. Against BUG it hits Deathrite, Bob, Liliana, Tombstalker... the exact threats here are more nebulous as the variant would need to be defined. However there are other decks in my meta that Purge would also serve as a decent substitution. I would love to hear thoughts on this card choice specifically.

As always, thanks for the reading.

Nothing new. Been playing the UWr version recently. 8 ways to deal with DRS, Delver, among others, is great.

[kiblast]

You don't need to quote a wall of text which was right above your post. This makes even less sense if you are not adding anything new to the discussion. Makes the life of readers/ lurkers / followers of the thread (like me) miserable. Thanks.

[Sturtzilla]

Nothing new. Been playing the UWr version recently. 8 ways to deal with DRS, Delver, among others, is great.

::sarcasm:: Thank you for the constructive input.



You don't need to quote a wall of text which was right above your post. This makes even less sense if you are not adding anything new to the discussion. Makes the life of readers/ lurkers / followers of the thread (like me) miserable. Thanks.

Agreed. I was super excited that there was going to be some actual discussion here....

[ThoSha]

I appreciate your work, Sturtzilla.

I brought Fred Edelkamp's list to a tournament recently and I was quite pleased by how it played out.
Of course the Deck has its weaknesses but overall I enjoyed the concepts.

Some points from my side:

I played the original list except I swapped Paths for Swords x4.
In my opinion it was a bad call, because this deck really needs its clock and more often then not you cant afford to let your opponent gain, say, 10 life my removing multiple Goyfs.
It cost me the game against RUG Delver with my opponent left on 2 life, outclassing the race simply with Mongoose.
A cool play with Path could also be in a common situation where your Delver eats removal on Turn 2 and you cant answer it, that you Path your own Delver in response to stock up on lands to cast Geist earlier/safe trough daze. Since this deck doesnt pack so many counters at all, it could benefit from tricks like that.
Since we are not on the Temporoad, we couldn't care less about opponents getting basics instead of life in this regard. Need to try it before judging tough.

About the red splash.. Have you been real happy with it?
It doesn't really make sense to me to splash red just to swap Vapor Snag with Lightning Bolt.


Keep up the testing,
cheers

[Sturtzilla]

About the red splash.. Have you been real happy with it?
It doesn't really make sense to me to splash red just to swap Vapor Snag with Lightning Bolt.

I have really like having the availability of both a removal spell and a card that can just close the game out. However this come at the price of destabilizing the mana base... making the deck weaker to Wasteland and maybe slightly more susceptible to Stifle. Red also gives you access to some very awesome Sideboard cards. Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, Rough/Tumble, and Sulfur Elemental can all be amazing in certain MUs. So the red can be worth it. Vapor Snag is the very essence of Tempo. It gives you a brief board advantage. I found myself wanting a more permanent answer to troublesome (i.e. giest-blocking) creatures. For awhile I was running a 4-2 split of StP and PtE (I removed the 4 Vapor Snags). I then transitioned to a 3-3. I had pretty good results with both. It also opened up two flex slots. I experimented with extra land, another Snapcaster, and a few odds and ends depending on my perceived meta. Overall I think the deck is pretty decent either as UW or UWr. Keep me posted on your results. :smile:

[ThoSha]

I have really like having the availability of both a removal spell and a card that can just close the game out. However this come at the price of destabilizing the mana base... making the deck weaker to Wasteland and maybe slightly more susceptible to Stifle. Red also gives you access to some very awesome Sideboard cards. Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, Rough/Tumble, and Sulfur Elemental can all be amazing in certain MUs. So the red can be worth it. Vapor Snag is the very essence of Tempo. It gives you a brief board advantage. I found myself wanting a more permanent answer to troublesome (i.e. giest-blocking) creatures. For awhile I was running a 4-2 split of StP and PtE (I removed the 4 Vapor Snags). I then transitioned to a 3-3. I had pretty good results with both. It also opened up two flex slots. I experimented with extra land, another Snapcaster, and a few odds and ends depending on my perceived meta. Overall I think the deck is pretty decent either as UW or UWr. Keep me posted on your results. :smile:

The thing is, Vapor Snag has many advantages over bolt. I see bolt being good as a finisher especially with snapcaster, but IMO this fits in a U/R shell way better.
Vapor Snag doesn't kill things, but it acts as a main out to Reanimator and really troublesome creatures like Griselbrand, Kuldotha Forgemaster etc, and can be used to save your own creatures anytime.
Not to mention it can temporaly get rid of a big goyf or knight, while Bolt sits in your hand.

I'd like to improve the synergies with Snag and Karakas by adding 1 Vendilion Clique, replacing a Geist.
Seems solid to me to bounce their biggest creature with Submerge/Snag and Clique it away.

[Sturtzilla]

I'd like to improve the synergies with Snag and Karakas by adding 1 Vendilion Clique, replacing a Geist.
Seems solid to me to bounce their biggest creature with Submerge/Snag and Clique it away.

I agree that Vapor Snag does have a good amount of utility. It lacks staying power. For example in many fair match ups, if you bounce one of your opponent's guys you get a clear lane to attack through for likely only a turn, maybe two if you can Snapcaster it the following turn. This is good but outright removing the creature is often better. In these situations you really need to have a significant clock on your opponent. If you don't Snag loses a ton of value. I do like your proposal of bouncing an opposing threat with a Snag and the Cliquing it away. That seems pretty powerful.

[guybrush3]

So here is a variation of the UW tempo deck with red splash and an original Emrakul pack i would like to share with u. U will see how aethermage is better than show and tell...

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 geist or Vendilion Clique (to decide)
1 gilded drake
2 stoneforge mystic
Spells
3 AEthermage's Touch
3 enginnereed explosives
4 Brainstorm Buy
1 Dream Cache Buy
1 Erratic Explosion
2 Magma Jet
4 Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Umezawa's jitte
Lands
1academy ruins
2 wasteland
2 island
1 karakas
4 volcanic islands
4 plateau
4 tundra
4 flooded strand
1 underground sea

Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[kiblast]

First, do you mind to write the decklist properly? What the hell this:

academy ruins x1
wasteland x2
2 island
1 karakas
12 duals
5 fetches dual lands

means? ''5 fetches dual lands''?

Then, do you mind to explain what's going on in your deck (because honestly seems like you threw together 60 cards from your trade binder) what's the gameplan like?

Oh and why on earth would you post that in the UW tempo thread?

[guybrush3]

First, do you mind to write the decklist properly? What the hell this:

academy ruins x1
wasteland x2
2 island
1 karakas
12 duals
5 fetches dual lands

means? ''5 fetches dual lands''?

Then, do you mind to explain what's going on in your deck (because honestly seems like you threw together 60 cards from your trade binder) what's the gameplan like?

Oh and why on earth would you post that in the UW tempo thread?
happy? ....
i posted it here cuz it ended to be a very similar uw tempo deck without counters and with an emrakul pack. I don't thing it need further explanations unless u are a complain guy like u are...
game plan is pretty much simpe as in uw tempo is -> kill with creatures,control your deck with draw mechanics,be fast,kill with swords and magma jet and cast emrakul via aethermage (like natural order+progenitus does in a bant deck) . The reason why i prefer to do this via aethermage is:

GOOD things :
AeT is istant,u can play it at your end step or during the opponents turn end step. It has the surprise effect since u don't have to wait 1 turn to get rid of summoning sickness. You don't need the creature card to be in your hand and that means having something else instead of that draw card.
SaT cost 2U and you will be able to attack on turn 4. You can also drop many things in a row
BAD things:
AeT cost 4 you will able to attack on turn 5. It has white in his cost. The creature returns to your hand at the end of the turn. The creature has to be in the top4 cards of your library
SaT is a sorcery. You have to protect it for one entire opponent turn from removal.Opponents can also cast fatties.The creature has to be in your hand.It costs a lot of money , rofl. :cool:



since aethermage needs library controlling support brainstorm and jace are very helpfull. Aethermage has also a good interaction with gilded drake.You steal it then gilded drake returns to your hand.A nice trick in case you want to double steal a creature to your opponent. Explosion allow you to do more direct damage like magma jet does but since the deck is all about controlling the library it will allow u also to blow your opponent with 15 damage if u place emrakul on top of it.Dream cache is a fifth brainstorm and less costing Jace,but less effective of course. It will ,like brainstorm, allow you to put back on the top of your deck emrakul in case you draw it. The point is to not have him in hand but to keep it there with brainstorms , dream cache,jace and sensei's. In the meanwhile u go aggressive with burn spells, nasty creatures and swords

[Sturtzilla]

Oh and why on earth would you post that in the UW tempo thread?

Agreed. This list belongs in the New and Developmental Section. It does not appear to be tuned at all. You have a tempo game plan, a SFM package, and a combo all jammed into the same deck. It looks to me like you are going to get an awkward draw just about every time.... the deck needs 1 identity not 3.

[guybrush3]

Agreed. This list belongs in the New and Developmental Section. It does not appear to be tuned at all. You have a tempo game plan, a SFM package, and a combo all jammed into the same deck. It looks to me like you are going to get an awkward draw just about every time.... the deck needs 1 identity not 3.

Ok sorry then,i thought tempo game plans these days were considered including SFM packages pretty commonly . What is different are just 6 cards for the combo package and the counterless part. I thought comments in the thread about small variations were allowed. My fault , i will test it before and bring results before writing again.
cheers

EDIT: its probabily more similar to an U/R delver with white splash

[Will_L]

its probabily more similar to an U/R delver with white splash

There is an existing thread for URW Delver, I would look there for ideas and deck lists.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25531-UWR-Delver

[kiblast]

happy? ....
i posted it here cuz it ended to be a very similar uw tempo deck without counters and with an emrakul pack. I don't thing it need further explanations unless u are a complain guy like u are...

I'm not complaining, I'm just pointing out that you clearly have no idea what you talking about.

[Sturtzilla]

It has been awhile since there has been any discussion in this thread. What do you guys think of working True-Name Nemesis into the Vaporblade list? I think it could be really strong. Anyway this is what I was considering.

Maindeck-60
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Vapor Snag
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas

Sideboard-15
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disenchant
3 Jotan Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Submerge

Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce are nearly identical so the board may require some work. It also might be nice to work Spell Pierce into the maindeck. Probably need some testing to figure these things out. Looking forward to your thoughts!

[wcm8]

Alternatives to Vapor Snag:
-celestial flare
-unexpectedly absent

I think UAbsent especially is a strong choice, as it can generate tempo thanks to its potential for a Time Walk effect. It's also great in that it hits everything, not just creatures. Admittedly, WW is a bit awkward to hit, but in a straight UW list you can afford to run some basics. Maybe splash volcanic or seas for sideboard options.

[lambert101]

@Sturtzilla

I like your list a lot. I am pondering the following sideboard.

3 RIP (VS deathrite and goyf ---i understand it makes snap caster worse)
2 Pithing Needle (for sneak attack, top, Liliana of the Veil, and Jace)
1 sword of feast and famine (for combo and control)
4 Spell Pierce (for combo and control)
2 Disenchant (needed for TNNstoneforge decks, mud, and control)
2 Vendelion Clique (subs in for 2 TNN against control and combo)
1 Venser Shaper Servant (Show and Tell and Combo)

[lavafrogg]

If you are making a straight UW tempo list with all of the actual cards instead of crap like fathom seer, wouldn't you just emulate the other successful tempo decks of our day and run stifle/wasteland alongside delver/stoneforge? You lose the red for reach but you do gain the ability to run basic lands, hello back to basics, which would let you play a misers jace in addition to your three drops.

The biggest pain would be the loss of another strong one drop but for all intents and purposes you just play snapcaster and up the curve a little...

4 delver
4 stoneforge
4 snapcaster
2 nemisis/geist(he just hits so hard)

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 swords
4 force
4 daze
4 stifle
1 jace
1 batterskull
1 jitte
1 sword of xy

4 wasteland
Other lands

This seems like the winning formula for delver right now.

P.S. I would also think about trimming snapcaster and finding a card that did not care about rest in peace...

[Juice11]

I posted this in the wrong thread before I was directed here. I just saw a list win a small tournament that has been running a list similar to me. I started playing UW because I'm not 100% sure why adding red to the deck makes it much better. Running 2 colors gives us a much more solid mana base. We lose access to bolt and REBS/lavamancers out of the sideboard... but the only thing a bolt can hit that swords or path can is life total and planeswalkers. Honestly, I've never once bolted a planeswalker. It's been pointed out to me that maindeck verdicts arent really tempo... so I have updated my list to be:


4 Delver of secrets
5 TNN/Geist of saint traft (some combination- i'd prefer 3tnn/2gost)
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 SoFaI
3 Stifle
2 Spell pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze

2 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding tarn
2 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra


sideboard

1 path to exile
3 Meddling Mage
2 Submerge
1 Spell pierce
2 Vendilon clique
3 rest in peace
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Manriki Gusari
1 Flusterstorm


I have also been considering a sideboard with with some sort of e tutor with helm package since I am already running the RIP's.

[Octopusman]

Glad to see this moved out of the archive despite zero activity for quite a long time.

What can be considered since it was last updated? Council's Judgment? Unexpectedly Absent?
Supreme Verdict not exactly a tempo card but clears Eldrazi and just about everything else nicely if you play around Thought-Knott.

The last list actually looks pretty good but I question the SoFI, Ponder, and Geist as threats. Maybe question TNN also. Could some number of Curse Catcher/Judge's Familiar be worthwhile? I was a big fan of Spiketail Hatchling back in the day.

I used to run Jotun Grunt and was always a HUGE fan of this card. It may be ever more applicable today than in the past.

I'm hoping that there is still reason to discuss this deck instead of just saying "play x version of stoneblade".
I have the feeling that this strategy is pretty good right now and I will be playing it/brewing for a more metagame-applicable list.

[ironclad8690]

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Meddling Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Tundra
2 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Containment Priest
1 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


The idea is to use Meddling Mage + Gitaxian Probe to name cards that your opponent has similarly to the Thresh decks of old, which used Peek instead. Sideboard is sort of thrown together.

[Conscious Insanity]

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Meddling Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Tundra
2 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Containment Priest
1 Flusterstorm
1 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


The idea is to use Meddling Mage + Gitaxian Probe to name cards that your opponent has similarly to the Thresh decks of old, which used Peek instead. Sideboard is sort of thrown together.

If you're running Probes, maybe Monastery Mentor would be a better fit than maindeck Meddling Mages. The mages could be moved to the SB. I haven't tested this, just an idea.

[Octopusman]

If you're running Probes, maybe Monastery Mentor would be a better fit than maindeck Meddling Mages. The mages could be moved to the SB. I haven't tested this, just an idea.

Or use both? Monastery Mentor seems great in this deck.

[Conscious Insanity]

Or use both? Monastery Mentor seems great in this deck.

Possibly, but I'm not sure there's room for both creatures. The deck is already running a somewhat low number of instants/sorceries to flip Delver naturally, so I wouldn't cut those. The only thing else to cut would be creatures but again I wouldn't want to cut any of the mainstays (Delver, SFM and TNN). The only flex slots to me are the Meddling Mages.

[colo]

The "Nogoyf"/UW Tempo I used to play was a creature-based aggro-control list with small creatures that grew dangerous due to strapping a Jitte onto them. It also feature Weather Wayfarer as its signature card-advantage engine. I'm of the opinion that Delver of Secrets can't work in that environment, since it would mandate to up the count of instants and sorceries considerably to become effective.

Now, if someone were to create a deck they want to call "UW Tempo" (it's a pretty terrible generic name, unfortunately) that doesn't have anything to do with the original creators' list's spirit, we should definitely create a new thread for discussing that.

[justjammin]

i'm trying this version is more death & taxes oriented but it gives me good sensations on playtesting

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Mother of Runes
3 Meddling Mage
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Flickerwisp
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Rishadan Port
2 Island
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
2 Karakas
4 Æther Vial

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Disenchant
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Mirran Crusader
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari

[kinda]

New teferi stops miracles like terminus...possible inclusion?

[kinda]

So this deck is very good now with Lurrus.

[kinda]

It's Julian went 5-0, https://youtu.be/CSgMgSH8Wvg.

[colo]

A pity I'm not going to get to play with this, it seems. UW Tempo is such a sweet deck - but without an engine of pure bustedness, there's no way it will be competetive, esp. given that conjuring up Wastelands has grown rather weak over the last few sets.