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SilverGreen
11-20-2009, 05:27 PM
About two years ago, during the reign of Landstill decks in my local metagame, I built a deck that (I guessed, at least) could beat it consistently and doesn't seem like a complete pile of poop against the rest of the meta. The goal was partially reached at the time, I was really capable of win Landstill and other random matches with it, but just when I didn't lose to my own deck. The major reason for it was its ackward manabase, filled with Wastelands, unbecoming fetchlands and fragile Scrublands. I ended losing more games than I won with the deck, but having the conviction I could have won much more games if my land draws were smoother. But now, things look a little better for the deck: Marsh Flats makes the manabase flow very easier now, and the recent adition of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to the list has also helping a lot.

The list's actually demolishing control builds (except for Counterbalance), and have an at least decent game against other general strategies. It's weak against Dredge and against loads of cheap burn yet, so I'm working to try to minimize it. The list I'm current running is:

6 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

22 Lands

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Spectral Lynx

14 Creatures

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

24 Other Spells

SB: 2 Descendant of Kyomaro
SB: 4 Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus / Jötun Grunt
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

15 Sideboard Cards


I dubbed the deck "Moonwalker", less because of the lunatic toolbox vampire than because the will to make an homage to that BW artist. I'm having a hard time at categorizing the deck as control or aggro-control, because even packing a number of cheap utility creatures, these creatures are played more like spells than as what they actually are. We simply can't just cast a Vampire Nighthawk and ride it until the end of days, as we're used to do with backed-up Tarmogoyfs. Creatures here are a resource that must be carefully manageable, and mustn't be played without a reason. So, I think the better aproach in categorizing this deck is that it's a "Confidant attrition deck". Its main plain is to attack the opponent's mana development, while you supress his/her best creatures and hold down a hand full of discard (no, discard and LD are not incompatible, like some insist to argue). When your opponent stabilizes with a low, manageble enough amount of board resources, it's the right time to attack his/her hand and lay out your creatures.

Some cards I think are worth of note are:

Vampire Nighthawk: Together with its good friend Bob, it's the heart and soul of the deck. Try to avoid the foolish habbit of look at it as a 2/3 for :1: :b: :b:, or as a bad Tombstalker - it's actually much more than that. Try to see it as a source of resources and versatility, that eventually hits for 2. The humble Nighthawk is capable of trade with the aforementioned Tombstalker and its angry :1: :g: giant partner as few other creatures in the format are; it changes the math of your Thoughtseizes, fetchlands and Confidants entirely (Bob - Stalker + Jecko = Good); it hits above all of Elpeth's tokens; and more importantly, it eats that ackward Bolt, Plowshare or Path that would aim to your Bobs.

Gatekeeper of Malakir: This and Nighthawk, together with the new fetches, are the main reasons to revisit the BW disruption theme, I think. Yet in the spell-creature category, Gatekeeper provides one more flexible tool of board control, complementing your spare StPs and economizing your Vindicates, at the same time it joins the "2-4 a turn beatdown". And like the other vampire in the deck, it too doesn't care about size and shape of opposing creatures. It's also a two for Bob and a three for Counterbalance, which makes it few painful, and more valuable at removing annoying Counterbalance-sheltered Goyf/Mongeese in Canadian.

Spectral Lynx: It's half a Moat that ocasionally hits for 2 in a metagame full of Nacatls and Pridemages and some other random creature with :g: in its manacost, survives all non-Path removal in Zoo, and blocks time and again 6/6 Wake Thrashers and 7/2 Piledrivers. It's a cheap way to help maintain control of the board, in a deck that seeks to keep a light and manageable board position.

About the spells, I really think there isn't much to say without taking the risk of looking like a replicating moron. The pack of discard and land destruction is the same good'ol we're used to since the time of Pikula's homebrew. Thoughtseize is just Duress with caffeine (and your Plowshares and Gatekeepers are very grateful of it), and some may argue about the right number of Verdicts, but the debate space here isn't the greater in the matter. I didn't consider Path to Exile as an option here for obvious reasons, although I can see a number of them as a possible sideboard choice.

Graveyard hate clogs the sideboard due to the amount of Dredge that exists in my local metagame, and Dredge may ruin the entire day of a heavy discard strategy like this one, as some of us may know. Kyomaros were MD stuff in the old pre-ZEN versions of the deck, and I think a number of them is still worth the SB slots, as a foil to burn and very aggressive strategies in general. Rings are here to allow a game against Counterbalance and act as additional removal, and Plagues just happened to be good again.

There's some cards that I tried but didn't make the cut, or that I would like so much to run, but simply don't find the space:

-Umezawa's Jitte is the first one coming to mind, if I could open 5 slots to run two more creatures and 3 Jittes, I would be in good shape. It's a bit slow against fast red aggro, but the deck isn't exactly speedy anyways, and a Jitted Nighthawk or Lynx would almost guarantee a shift in the game in our favor. Unfortunely, 5 slots are too much over the space I can find right now.

-Dark Ritual used to be here at the beginning, but was cut off due to the number of hands I had to mulligan because I had too much StP's and Verdicts, and because it doesn't fit so well as it may seem at first glance in this deck's strategy. We don't have the plan to blistering throw 3 cards to take 3 cards from the opponent's hand, neither of playing a first turn flying disruptive specter. The overall gameplan of almost all of your cards that could benefit from a :b::b::b: boost doesn't ask to be done so soon in the game. Gatekeeper could make the best use of the boost from all, but even it can find its better jobs later. Mana>Lackey isn't a so frightening play nowadays as it use to be in the past anymore. An edict effect is more valuable when aimed later to a stand, sole 5/6, an untouchable 3/3 or 10/10, or even against a lone 20/20.

-I think Duress is a must have in such a deck with no reliable 1st-turn play other than pinpoint hand disruption, mainly because this deck sucks against a resolved Counterbalance. It has a reasonable gameplan of prevent an opponent to ever play his/her CB already, but for sure it just isn't enough, so a little diversification, or in this case, more capitalization, could help. But again, I can't find more room for it. Suggestions would be highly, highly appreciated in this subject.

I keep a table of match results and play notes about the deck in MWS, and I'll provide more data about matches as soon as I can get to my laptop with a little more free time, but the general lines can be drawn by the infos I told above. I really wish you give this build a try, and that you rejoice with it so much as I'm doing. It's a lot of fun to play, and can win it's fair amount of games, you can believe me. :wink:

Let's discuss other issues as the thread goes on. Please, let me know your opinions and suggestions, I'll appreciate them very much and will be very glad to discuss. Enjoy!

LegacyDan
11-22-2009, 05:39 PM
Honestly, if I were to try out this deck (as I have been an advocate of B/w decks since day one) the only thing I would change would be -1 Gerrard's Verdict and -1 Land for +2 Jittes.

Zinch
11-22-2009, 06:16 PM
Gatekeeper of Malakir: This and Nighthawk, together with the new fetches, are the main reasons to revisit the BW disruption theme, I think. Yet in the spell-creature category, Gatekeeper provides one more flexible tool of board control, complementing your spare StPs and economizing your Vindicates, at the same time it joins the "2-4 a turn beatdown". And like the other vampire in the deck, it too doesn't care about size and shape of opposing creatures. It's also a two for Bob and a three for Counterbalance, which makes it few painful, and more valuable at removing annoying Counterbalance-sheltered Goyf/Mongeese in Canadian.



I like the idea of the deck, but I have to say that Gatekeeper of Malakir has a CMC of 2 for any purpose (for Bob as you said but also for counterbalance)

Sevryn
11-23-2009, 01:28 AM
I like the current list.

You mentioned Jitte... I would use Steppe Lynx as the additional creature because it is one of the only one-drops that can hit for 4 turn 2 and on.

dearleader
11-23-2009, 02:33 AM
Considering that you have 10 lands to fill your yard and only 14 creatures, I'd imagine that you could support 2 Jotun Grunts. 4 toughness is very relevant, and it can help you end games quickly.

How has 12 discard spells working for you? I can see where this would be great vs landstill, but I've always found having more than 8-10 against aggro decks is really bad. I love hymn to tourach and Gerrard's verdict, but they set you back in tempo against aggro that can kill you before card advantage becomes relevant.

Engineered Explosives could help against Counter-top decks, while still being useful against aggro. It hits Dark Confidant, but it does so at your discretion if you want to kill counterbalance.

SilverGreen
11-23-2009, 05:19 AM
I like the idea of the deck, but I have to say that Gatekeeper of Malakir has a CMC of 2 for any purpose (for Bob as you said but also for counterbalance)


# 116.8c - Additional costs don't change a spell's mana cost, only what its controller has to pay to cast it. Spells and abilities that ask for that spell's mana cost still see the original value. [CompRules 2009/07/08] Really. It was a long time since I play with kicker cards for the last time, I tought additional costs changed the spell's cost in stack, as X spells do. Thank you.

Steppe Lynx may be a very strong addition to the deck, actually. It would be a valuable 1-drop, something it lacks, coming online before you start casting the other spells, and putting the pressure needed to make the early disruption have an increased impact. I didn't even consider this creature, well minded. Lynxes of the steppe kind may replace the spectral ones and two Verdicts, and two fetchlands with W replace two Swamps.

Maveric78f
11-23-2009, 06:33 AM
You'd better play tops and mother of runes as 1-drops. Steppe Lynx is goddamn awful as a defensive creature.

Jitte or/and Elspeth would be good to help you do something relevant with your 2/X that are definitely not impressive.

Forbiddian
11-23-2009, 07:00 AM
I'm pretty sure that Mother of Runes is better than Vampire Nighthawk.


Try to see it as a source of resources and versatility, that eventually hits for 1. The humble Mother is capable of trade with the anything ground-bound as few other creatures in the format are; it protects another creature to hit through Elpeth's tokens; and more importantly, it eats that ackward Bolt, Plowshare or Path that would aim to your Bobs and it eats two actually.

Oh, and it costs 1 and not 3.

It's also better than Steppe Lynx if you're that attached to Vampire Nighthawk.

Maveric78f
11-23-2009, 07:24 AM
Nighthawk is really good. I'm astonished by all these people judging a card without having tested it. Your arguments are fallacious. Here is what does Nighthawk and MoR does not:
- blocks fliers.
- owns burn if you can protect it with discard/jitte/MoR.
- it makes a 4 difference with evasion, meaning for instance that you won't trade against a 3/4 Tarmogoyf. You'd better race.
- it becomes really insane once it's equipped.
- it actually destroys opponent creature and does not "stall".

I don't even see why you compare them.

Skeggi
11-23-2009, 07:38 AM
Isn't this just Deadguy Ale (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2597&highlight=deadguy+ale) with an updated creature base?

Hopo
11-23-2009, 07:51 AM
Isn't this just Deadguy Ale (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2597&highlight=deadguy+ale) with an updated creature base?

Yes, it is. I also don't see why this thread exists.

And Vampire Nighthawk is terrific. It has a bunch of useful abilities and is basically never dead because of the lifelink. It is a reasonable substitution for Hypnotic Specter and actually useful against aggro and burn. While not being as disruptive as specter, it handles the combat step like no other.
Definitely an underrated beater and a nice addition to the deck's ability to combat goyf.

Mark Sun
11-23-2009, 08:35 AM
Guys, I just wanna point out that he's talking about Spectral Lynx, not the Zendikar common. That one definitely blocks stuff all day long.

Maveric78f
11-23-2009, 08:43 AM
You mentioned Jitte... I would use Steppe Lynx as the additional creature because it is one of the only one-drops that can hit for 4 turn 2 and on.


Steppe Lynx may be a very strong addition to the deck, actually. It would be a valuable 1-drop, something it lacks, coming online before you start casting the other spells, and putting the pressure needed to make the early disruption have an increased impact. I didn't even consider this creature, well minded. Lynxes of the steppe kind may replace the spectral ones and two Verdicts, and two fetchlands with W replace two Swamps.

You're sure?

SilverGreen
11-23-2009, 09:34 AM
Isn't this just Deadguy Ale (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2597&highlight=deadguy+ale) with an updated creature base?
Isn't Canadian Thresh just a regular Threshold deck running burn?

Yeah, I agree it's kind of an "updated" (quotes in bold here, because my genius is far from comparable with someone's of Chris Pikula caliber, and this version is far from optimal yet) Deadguy Ale, but it also carries a subtle shift in its overall strategy, and the whole bunch of new cards injection, the abandon of others, the time window between the old lists and appearances of the deck in an actual metagame, as well as a thread with 86 pages that's stuck running around its own tail, justify the opening of a new discussion about it, IMHO. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, we can consider and still call it Deadguy Ale or BW Homebrew if it's our pleasure, but I think there's a good excuse to don't mix up a list revolving around vampires and cats into another based in Dark Rituals, Tops and Hyppies. For sure it may be just a matter of personal judgment, but whatever. It's just the way I see it.

Tao
11-23-2009, 10:07 AM
I have a good amount of tournament experience with BW/Deadguy and from that I can tell that your deck certainly needs another 1-drop. Regular DG can somehow consistently either Ritual or Thoughtseize on turn 1 while your draw can only curve smooth with Thoughtseize.

But Steppe Lynx would be not the card the deck needs because it will most likely only once hit for 4 and from then on be Isamaru that cant block. I agree with Maverick that you should play Mother of Runes. Mom is great together with Confidant and Nighthawk.

Citrus-God
11-23-2009, 11:29 AM
I have a Bw Disruption deck atm too. Just a thing to combat everything going around... except Zoo. It fares well against Merfolk though. Mine is


// Mana 24
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
2 Plains
8 Swamp


// Creatures 16
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


// Spells 20
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Smallpox


// Sideboard 15
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Path to Exile
1 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Duress

Smallpox was in short, amazing in testing. One of my favorite cards to run in Bw Confidant before the rise of Goyf. Just amazing. I might cut one Smallpox for another land though.

Elspeth is fucking good. Synergizes with Smallpox and is a blocker in addition to a dangerous threat.

Forbiddian
11-23-2009, 02:52 PM
I don't even see why you compare them.

Mom demands removal, while Nighthawk only requests it. The "most important" ability of Nighthawk is its ability to protect Bobs from removal by acting as a meatshield.

I compared them because Mother does most everything listed in the OP (except block fliers and go aggro), and she comes down turn 1 instead of turn 3, but she fulfills most of the duties of Nighthawk. A small amount of versatility isn't worth 2 mana.

Nighthawk might still be better for another unlisted reason, but if we're just going by the OP's statements about Nighthawk, Mother of Runes does the protection/removal bait much, much, better, and can also help you recover from a slow start instead of, well, being part of the slow start.

I still think Nighthawk is a good fit for the deck, and that from what was stated, Mother of Runes should slide in taking over some other slot, but I was mainly making the comparison to highlight how this deck would benefit from Mother of Runes with its high curve (low amount of 1 drops) and the already-mentioned fear of 1:1 enemy removal targeted at key creatures.

Sevryn
11-23-2009, 11:26 PM
Why are we arguing Mother of Runes vs Vampire Nighthawk? They're different colors, manacost, and role.

Why not just run both... some synergy between protection and deathtouch on a flier, methinks. Add Jitte to taste.

Tacosnape
11-24-2009, 12:45 AM
Why are we arguing Mother of Runes vs Vampire Nighthawk? They're different colors, manacost, and role.

Agreed. Why argue Unplayable Card A versus Unplayable Card B?


Why not just run both... some synergy between protection and deathtouch on a flier, methinks. Add Jitte to taste.

Or neither and run creatures that actually win games.

Sevryn
11-24-2009, 01:03 AM
Or neither and run creatures that actually win games.
No offense, but could you explain this? Nighthawk AT WORST trades with any creature short of Progenitus. Deathtouch is seriously nuts in a creature defined format... and he still has evasion and lifelink, which actually matters late-game with confidant out.

With so much targeted removal in the format (a long list, but minimally swords and bolt), how is mom bad? Keep in mind she fills the 1cc slot, which is quite weak in this deck. What would you suggest as a similarly-costed replacement?

FoulQ
11-24-2009, 01:34 AM
@ Sevryn, the replacement is pretty obvious, not playing the deck.

Maveric78f
11-24-2009, 04:29 AM
Deadguy Ale was known to be an awful deck. I was the first to say this at some time. But the new vampires (Gatekeeper and Nighthawk) and Elspeth change it all. Save it's bad against combo, it's really good against he rest if you remove the awful wastelands and Sinkholes from the list.


// Mana 20
4 Marsh Flats
6 other W and B fetches
2 Scrubland
2 Plains
6 Swamp


// Creatures 20
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Mother of Runes
2 Jotun Grunt


// Spells 20
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
3 Swords to Plowshare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Grim Discovery
2 Umezawa's Jitte


// Sideboard 15
1 Swords to Plowshares
4 Engineered Plague
2 Disenchant
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Engineered Explosives