Jund Aggro

[Genericcactus]

As I am sure some of you know, Jund Aggro is the dominant deck in the current standard format. The deck's success comes from the use of incredibly efficient creatures, card advantage through cascade, and some of the most powerful removal spell ever made. I can't help but think that some aspects of Standard Jund could port over to legacy. Here's the list I have thought up, though minimally tested.

4x Kird Ape
4x Putrid Leech
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Bloodbraid Elf
2x Tombstalker

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Maelstrom Pulse

2x Jitte

22 Land:
4x Bayou
3x Badlands
2x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mountain

Potential Sideboard:
4x Choke
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Terminate
2x Duress
2x Krosan Grip

I have eschewed the obviously bad cards: Blightning (just not on the power level of the format), Sprouting Thrinax (not quite big enough for a three drop with no evasion), Broodmate Dragon (self evident), and Bituminous Blast (too expensive). This deck seems very powerful, with huge dudes, some reach, and hand disruption. The obvious point of attack is the deck's manabase, which is highly dependent on having multiple duals in play.

Card choices:
Kird Ape: Might be questionable, especially since turn 1 Taiga is kind of awful. Really want double black by three, and sometimes on 2. Could be Lavamancer.

Putrid Leech: Just awesome. Besides Goyf, the most efficient 2 drop beater your going to find. Attacks through all of zoo besides goyf and puts control on a clock. One of the best reasons to play this deck.

Goyf: Self evident.

Vampire Nighthawk: Trades with any creature it can't race.

Bloodbraid elf: Cascading creates absurd card advantage. Hitting a Leech, Goyf, or NIghthawk will catch you up in pretty much any situation your behind. Hitting a hymn is instawin. Hitting choke out of the board is just insane. The real question is: Is it worth 4 mana? With the fragile manabase, can the deck hit four with any consistency? If it can't, this deck probably isn't worth playing.

Tombstalker: Late game win condition. Ends the game fast and should be easily cast.

Lightning Bolt: One of the most efficient removal spells that also has reach. Very good in the current format.

Thoughtseize: Best discard spell ever. Rips removal/Goyfs out of any hand that doesn't have top or counterbalance.

Hymn: Second best discard spell ever. Cascading into it is insane.

Pulse: Versatile removal. Hits the fatties outside of Bolt range, Counterbalance, and any other random annoyance.

Jitte: Might be unnecessary because of the strength of my dudes, my aggro match should be fine. Maybe more removal/reach?

So why play this deck? Its similar to zoo in that it plays the most efficient threats in its respective casting cost and color. Its removal is slightly less efficient (Path to Exile, StP) but more versatile (Maelstrom Pulse). It instead tries to attack the hand in order to dispatch of early threats or strong answers. Putrid Leech is a reason to play this deck on it's own, being Goyfs 5-8. Instead of scooping to Combo, the strong discard plan drastically improves the matchup. The countertop matchup seems favorable, as well as Merfolk, and Goblins. Zoo will probably be close. Don't see how it could beat Canadian if they draw any mana denial.

General thoughts? Should there be different threats? Would the deck be better served having a mana denial plan with sinkhole and waste? Is the elf viable?

[Illissius]

You're in the right colors for Destructive Flow.

[from Cairo]

Kird Ape definitely doesn't seem good enough. He is too quickly outclassed, even in Zoo he's the weakest card in the deck. Jund is more midranged than something like Zoo, so running something with a bit higher casting cost but more long term power seems better. With the meta being so agro oriented right now, I'd much rather run Terminates in his slot.

[sauce]

jund charm/vfallout split seems pretty good in legacy... albeit a bit slow.

Capitalization is required on this site. Use it. -zilla

[Vacrix]

Grim Lavamancer > Kird Ape

He gives you reach and rapes in the aggro matchup.

[Genericcactus]

Grim Lavamancer > Kird Ape

He gives you reach and rapes in the aggro matchup.

The only problem is the lack of synergy with Tombstalker.

[Vacrix]

Do you really like Tombstalker in this? You cant get him with Bloodbraid Elf and I think you should try to include Bob. You have enough fat already IMO. Goyf and Leech are huge and the rest of your deck really just clears the way for them.

[Genericcactus]

Bob could be good, but I don't think I want to cascade into him. 4 damage from an Elf is also a pain, especially with Thoughtseize. How about Sylvan Library as another source of CA? Does there need to be 1-drop? Is more removal in that slot good, and maybe play a 4th Nighthawk?

[Vacrix]

I actually question how often you will hit 4 mana on turn 4 to play Elf. Is he even that good? 3/2 haste thats plays another goyf (at best) hardly seems worth 4 slots at 2GR in legacy.

What about this?

Jund Aggro:
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Putrid Leech
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Dark Confidant
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Maelstrom Pulse

2x Umezawa's Jitte

22 Land:
4x Bayou
3x Badlands
2x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mountain

Gatekeeper is one additional removal spell, and another Jitte bearer at the same time. You won't lose to chalice at 1 (I've seen a lot of that going on in MWS lately). You have enough fat + distruption to beat control and enough removal (Lavamancer is dank) to deal with aggro. A friend of mine has been testing a deck like this for sometime. This is more of what his build looks like.


EDIT:
Aside, Sylvan Library filtering could work well with Bloodbraid Elf.

[Genericcactus]

Through the minimal testing that has been done with this deck, BBE has been insane. If you can cast it you pretty much win the game. Everything it hits (besides Kird Ape) is going to help you when ahead or behind. I haven't tested Bob, and I'll do that, but I'm hesitant that it's as powerful as BBE in this deck. BBB for Gatekeeper stretches this manabase more than it can handle. Needing BB is already rough.

Things that need to be solved:

Kird Ape: Its bad. Lavamancer is certainly appealing, but it sucks with Tombstalker, which has proven itself through testing. Maybe a one drop is unnecessary if we had more reach. Chain lightning?

Card advantage: Where should it come from? BBE has been good, and might be correct, but is Bob and/or library viable?

[leander?]

Our team's take on RBG Aggro:

4 Kird Ape
4 Figure of Destiny
3 Keldon Marauders/Whatever
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast

1 Bayou
3 Taiga
4 Badlands
11 RGB Fetches

[Vacrix]

Agreed. Gatekeeper stretches the manabase quite a bit. All I see BBE doing is hitting Goyf or Leech (which is good) and then trading with the opponents Kird Ape/Pridemage/etc.



This is a friend's list:

MD
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Putrid Leech
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Terminate

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Badlands
3 Bayou
4 Swamp

SB
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Umezawa's Jitte

He has Bob for card advantage, quite a lot of removal for aggro, namely Grim Lavamancer, 8 reach spells. He has more turn 1 plays too. Personally I would -3 Terminate +3 Maelstrom Pulse. Pulse rapes Empty the Warrens and Bridge from Below tokens and hits artifacts/enchantments, etc.

Thoughts?

[Genericcactus]

@ leander?: It seems to me you are just playing a bad zoo deck. Especially with Figure, which isn't even good enough for zoo. I think the discard option is the way to go, it actually gives you a reason to play black.

@ Vacrix: You agree that Gatekeeper stretches the manabase and you play 4? I like Finks in the board though, would probably crush zoo. GG may be bad. Nighthawk is one of the most compelling reasons to play the deck. Evasion + lifelink is insane, it attacks you out of any hole. And, worse case scenario, it trades with the 3 critters it can't race, Tombstalker, Goyf, and War Monk. BB isn't awful because we are already accommodating Hymn. Its also great after a BBE cascade.

[Tao]

Agreed. Gatekeeper stretches the manabase quite a bit. All I see BBE doing is hitting Goyf or Leech (which is good) and then trading with the opponents Kird Ape/Pridemage/etc.

You say that as if it was something bad.

[nodahero]

While not being an aggro player I am a VERY experiened control and combo player.

My prefered aggro-esq deck is one that goes for something like LD and Discard against me because then their deck lacks focus and it allows me to slowly accumulate both since I run more land then they run LD and I have more cards then they can make me discard (the basic explanation).

Personally I think a dedicated discard burn package for the lower curve is the way to go.

as an FYI against non StP/PtE decks Sprouting Thrianx is stupid stupid good.

[Vacrix]

You say that as if it was something bad.

4 mana to trade with your opponents creature and get a creature...is exactly what Gatekeeper does for 3. I would much rather run confidant and get CA over many turns instead of just a one time deal that is BBE, especially since confidant can come down far earlier. With all the wasteland/port tricks in goblins you probably won't have the mana to play it, while against zoo it will just be a 4 mana removal spell with something else attached (like gatekeeper) and against control it won't resolve.


@ Vacrix: You agree that Gatekeeper stretches the manabase and you play 4? I like Finks in the board though, would probably crush zoo. GG may be bad. Nighthawk is one of the most compelling reasons to play the deck. Evasion + lifelink is insane, it attacks you out of any hole. And, worse case scenario, it trades with the 3 critters it can't race, Tombstalker, Goyf, and War Monk. BB isn't awful because we are already accommodating Hymn. Its also great after a BBE cascade.

Yea Gatekeeper stretches things a bit, but if testing permits you to run it then run it. I think maybe the number should be at 2. Keep in mind this is my friends list, not mine. The other list I had, the number was at 2. I was just providing insight from someone else who was working on a similar deck. I'm thinking run a 2/2 split between gatekeeper and nighthawk.

[Genericcactus]

4 mana to trade with your opponents creature and get a creature...is exactly what Gatekeeper does for 3. I would much rather run confidant and get CA over many turns instead of just a one time deal that is BBE, especially since confidant can come down far earlier. With all the wasteland/port tricks in goblins you probably won't have the mana to play it, while zoo it will just be a 4 mana removal spell with something else attached (like gatekeeper) and against control it won't resolve.

But Gatekeeper is a shitty 2/2 whereas a Goyf, is a 3/4 at worst. Not saying that Gatekeeper is bad, but BBE into a Goyf is much better than you are giving it credit for. BBE into Nighthawk, Leech, or Goyf really should win you the game against most decks.


Yea Gatekeeper stretches things a bit, but if testing permits you to run it then run it. I think maybe the number should be at 2. Keep in mind this is my friends list, not mine. The other list I had, the number was at 2. I was just providing insight from someone else who was working on a similar deck. I'm thinking run a 2/2 split between gatekeeper and nighthawk.

I'll test it, but Gatekeeper is really only viable for BBB, because a 2/2 just doesn't cut it. Cascading into it is bad too.

Here's the updated maindeck:

4x Putrid Leech
4x Goyf
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Bloodbraid Elf
2x Tombstalker

4x Lightning Bolt
3x Chain Lightning
4x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Maelstrom Pulse

2x Jitte

Lands...

[Vacrix]

But Gatekeeper is a shitty 2/2 whereas a Goyf, is a 3/4 at worst. Not saying that Gatekeeper is bad, but BBE into a Goyf is much better than you are giving it credit for. BBE into Nighthawk, Leech, or Goyf really should win you the game against most decks.

Gatekeeper can carry a jitte. That was my point really. BBE into anything (well I'd prefer a permanent) isn't bad, I'm saying wouldn't you rather have Bob drawing you those cards instead? Also, keep in mind that you run x12 of the things you really want to see off BBE. You are probably going to hit what you want like half the time. Is that good enough?


I'll test it, but Gatekeeper is really only viable for BBB, because a 2/2 just doesn't cut it. Cascading into it is bad too.

Well cascading into your 2nd Jitte isn't the best either..

I will do a little testing myself and see how things go with BBE vs. Bob

[Jaynel]

I'll test it, but Gatekeeper is really only viable for BBB, because a 2/2 just doesn't cut it. Cascading into it is bad too.

Can't you kick it off the Cascade? You're casting the spell without paying it's mana cost, can't you pay the B as you do so to kick it?

[leander?]

Yeah, you can. It's the same with kicking an Orim's Chant that has been played with Isochron Scepter.

[Genericcactus]

You can, but you will need 5 mana to Elf and kick, which is asking a lot. 4 is already tight.

Looking at the updated list, what cascades from Bloodbraid Elf will be bad? Hitting a Goyf, Nighthawk, or Leech is excellent. If you are way behind on board, such a cascade would automatically catch you up. But, given the aggressive nature of this deck, by the time you cast Bloodbraid, if you aren't ahead on board, your opponent should be either low on life or cards. As such, hitting Bolt, Chainlightning, Thoughtseize, Hymn, or Pulse should be good enough to finish the game. Don't forget that a 3/2 with haste is relevant. It can't stand up to Goyf, but it will often be attacking into a board where your opponents creatures are already sideways. The only crappy cascades I can think of his hitting a second Jitte, but that will rarely happen. As I mentioned earlier, cascading into Choke against blue decks is incredibly powerful.