graveyard order

[ryO!]

let's say :
i got volarah's shapeshifter on table
can i attack
declare blockers
cast entomb
resolve it (no counterspell or such)
so entomb to grave right ?
i get phage on top of my graveyard (entomb effect)
and GG?

or am i missing smth in the rules?

[luma]

When Entomb resolves, first you search your library for a card (Phage), then put the searched card into your graveyard, and last put Entomb into your graveyard. Entomb will be the top card of your graveyard, so Volrath's Shapeshifter will be just a 0/1.

[Adan]

Entomb puts the card into your graveyard during it's resolution and then goes to the grave itself after resolution. luma got it right.

This should make you come to the conclusion that Survival synergizes better with the Shapeshifter. ;-D

[ryO!]

Entomb puts the card into your graveyard during it's resolution and then goes to the grave itself after resolution. luma got it right.

This should make you come to the conclusion that Survival synergizes better with the Shapeshifter. ;-D

well thx and yes i know about sotf, to bad for entomb then.

[Humphrey]

what happens on torunament when opponents screw the order? f.e. in dredge

[johanessen]

In Extended and Standard it's legal, in Legacy I suppose it's a warning and you have to rearrange to the original position. But when you dredge you can put that cards in the order you want because they go all the same time to graveyard.

[Titan]

does shapeshifter even trigger phage's CIPT ability as she doesn't actually "enter the battlefield"?

"Oracle text: When Phage the Untouchable enters the battlefield, if you didn't cast it from your hand, you lose the game.
Whenever Phage deals combat damage to a creature, destroy that creature. It can't be regenerated.
Whenever Phage deals combat damage to a player, that player loses the game."

[Nonex]

If Phage is already on top of the graveyard and you cast Volrath's Shapeshifter from your hand, it enters and becomes a copy of Phage, and nothing happens. If Phage ends there and Volrath's Shapeshifter was already on the battlefield, again nothing happens because nothing has entered the battlefield, it's just a creature that changed name, color, abilities, etc.

[Anusien]

If Phage is already on top of the graveyard and you cast Volrath's Shapeshifter from your hand, it enters and becomes a copy of Phage, and nothing happens. If Phage ends there and Volrath's Shapeshifter was already on the battlefield, again nothing happens because nothing has entered the battlefield, it's just a creature that changed name, color, abilities, etc.
Mostly right. It's worth noting that Volrath's Shapeshifter never becomes a copy. Instead it gains the full text. This has implications if something later becomes a copy of Shapeshifter.

[Forbiddian]

does shapeshifter even trigger phage's CIPT ability as she doesn't actually "enter the battlefield"?

"Oracle text: When Phage the Untouchable enters the battlefield, if you didn't cast it from your hand, you lose the game.
Whenever Phage deals combat damage to a creature, destroy that creature. It can't be regenerated.
Whenever Phage deals combat damage to a player, that player loses the game."

If Phage is on top, Volrath's Shapeshifter triggers the ability and you'll die. VS gains the text or Phage before CIP (ETB) abilities are checked.

I do have a question about the current wording of Volrath's Shapeshifter.

It reads, "As long as the top card of your graveyard is a creature card, ~ has the full text of that card and has the text "2: Discard a card."

2: Discard a card.


So it's a two part question: 1) Why does it say "and has the text '2: Discard a card.'" ? VS already has that ability, so the existence of that text would seem to imply that Volrath's Shapeshifter loses its text as long as the top card is a creature card. That probably makes sense.

2) So if VS loses its text that no longer has the ability "as long as the top card of your graveyard is a creature card..." (although as soon as the top card is not a creature, then the effect will end and VS will change back). However, if you discard a second creature card, then VS SHOULD keep the abilities of the first creature. The top card is still a creature and at no point was it not a creature, so nothing triggered the VS to change back and it still has the characteristics of "that card."

I think it should be worded:

"As long as the top card of your graveyard is a creature card, ~ has the full text of the top card of your graveyard and...."

"That" card in this context seems to imply simply "the top card of your graveyard" and not be tied down to a specific card (i.e. not the top card of your graveyard when VS first gained those characteristics, as it would seem to imply). But that contradicts the wording of e.g. Future Sight:

Play with the top card of your library revealed. You may play the top card of your library.

If "that" were capable of referring to multiple cards, one at a time, then Future Sight should read, "You may play that card."

[Anusien]

If Phage is on top, Volrath's Shapeshifter triggers the ability and you'll die. VS gains the text or Phage before CIP (ETB) abilities are checked.
No and yes. You're correct in that VSS will have Phage's text. But you played Volrath's Shapeshifter from your hand, so you won't die.


I do have a question about the current wording of Volrath's Shapeshifter.

It reads, "As long as the top card of your graveyard is a creature card, ~ has the full text of that card and has the text "2: Discard a card."

2: Discard a card.


So it's a two part question: 1) Why does it say "and has the text '2: Discard a card.'" ? VS already has that ability, so the existence of that text would seem to imply that Volrath's Shapeshifter loses its text as long as the top card is a creature card. That probably makes sense.
It doesn't gain text; the text of the card replaces it. So you're right.

[ryO!]

2 questions
#when the top card is a creature, volrah loose the 2 : dicard a card right?
#if the top card is this 6/6 or 8/8 black creature that i cant remember the name with a text like when x comes into play and was player from your hand destroy all other [maybe non-black] creatures, it will trigger right?

thx

[Nonex]

- No, because it says it has the full text of that card and ":2: : Discard a card" to prevent it from ever losing that ability.

- If the top card is a creature when Shapeshifter enters, all "comes into play" abilities trigger. What don't apply are replacement effects (enter tapped / with counters, "name a card", enter as a copy, "choose a color / creature type / player", etc.).

[Maveric78f]

Does shapeshifter gain types and subtypes, colours, mana cost, etc... of the top card of the library? I guess it does since it would be too strong with Kiki Jiki on top.

In other words: what does full text means exactly?

[CallMeLiam]

Ok so Shapeshifter is on top, and Phage is directly underneath it. I return the Shapeshifter using something permanent ie Debtor's Knell. I die?

[ryO!]

- No, because it says it has the full text of that card and ":2: : Discard a card" to prevent it from ever losing that ability.

- If the top card is a creature when Shapeshifter enters, all "comes into play" abilities trigger. What don't apply are replacement effects (enter tapped / with counters, "name a card", enter as a copy, "choose a color / creature type / player", etc.).

thx and meant keep not lose sorry miss typed :p

so if i understant it dreadnought + volrah still need stifle?

[Van Phanel]

Ok so Shapeshifter is on top, and Phage is directly underneath it. I return the Shapeshifter using something permanent ie Debtor's Knell. I die?

Yes because the Shapeshifter enters the battlefield without being played from your hand with the full ext of Phage.

[Malchar]

Does shapeshifter gain types and subtypes, colours, mana cost, etc... of the top card of the library? I guess it does since it would be too strong with Kiki Jiki on top.

In other words: what does full text means exactly?

Gaining the full text is essentially the same as it being a copy. The only difference appears when it copies something that is copying something else or vice-versa because of layers.

The traditional combos with Volrath's Shapeshifter and Survival of the Fittest are:
1. With Volrath's Shapeshifter in play, discard a Flowstone Hellion, attack (it has haste), use the ability on Flowstone Hellion 11 times without passing priority, and then discard a Phyrexian Dreadnought without passing priority. Note that the come-into-play ability of Phyrexian Dreadnought doesn't trigger.
2. With Volrath's SHapeshifter in play, discard an Akroma, Angel of Wrath, attack (it has haste), put combat damage on the stack (trample), discard a Phage the Untouchable. Again the come-into-play ability doesn't trigger. This doesn't work as well anymore since combat damage doesn't use the stack.

Edit: Note that discarding cards while the Shapeshifter is in play will not trigger come-into-play abilities of any kind. However, when the Volrath's Shapeshifter is initially cast, it will trigger "when ~ comes into play" abilities of the top creature card. It may or may not trigger "as ~ comes into play" abilities of the top creature card depending on layers. I'm not too sure which "as" abilities it will trigger, though. Someone else might be able to check the comprehensive rules.

[Maveric78f]

The best is Inkshrouder + Phage.

[Nonex]

Does shapeshifter gain types and subtypes, colours, mana cost, etc... of the top card of the library? I guess it does since it would be too strong with Kiki Jiki on top.

In other words: what does full text means exactly?

As Malchar said, the only difference is in the layers. Just by saying "gains the full text" instead of "it's a copy" this effect goes to layer 3 rather than 1. That's because layer 2 is for control-changing effects. If Shapeshifter was in layer 1 and you stole your opponent's Shapeshifter with Vedalken Shackles (layer 2), it would first become a copy and then become yours - that is, it would still copy your opponent's graveyard. Being in layer 3, it's just the other way around.

[ryO!]

Gaining the full text is essentially the same as it being a copy. The only difference appears when it copies something that is copying something else or vice-versa because of layers.

The traditional combos with Volrath's Shapeshifter and Survival of the Fittest are:
1. With Volrath's Shapeshifter in play, discard a Flowstone Hellion, attack (it has haste), use the ability on Flowstone Hellion 11 times without passing priority, and then discard a Phyrexian Dreadnought without passing priority. Note that the come-into-play ability of Phyrexian Dreadnought doesn't trigger.
2. With Volrath's SHapeshifter in play, discard an Akroma, Angel of Wrath, attack (it has haste), put combat damage on the stack (trample), discard a Phage the Untouchable. Again the come-into-play ability doesn't trigger. This doesn't work as well anymore since combat damage doesn't use the stack.

Edit: Note that discarding cards while the Shapeshifter is in play will not trigger come-into-play abilities of any kind. However, when the Volrath's Shapeshifter is initially cast, it will trigger "when ~ comes into play" abilities of the top creature card. It may or may not trigger "as ~ comes into play" abilities of the top creature card depending on layers. I'm not too sure which "as" abilities it will trigger, though. Someone else might be able to check the comprehensive rules.

so
1)
if Volrath's is in play
i discard dreadnought
Volrath's = dreadnought
no effect
2)
dreadnought is on top
i play Volrath's
Volrath's = dreadnought
i got to sac 12 or play stifle
3)
"With Volrath's SHapeshifter in play, discard an Akroma, Angel of Wrath, attack (it has haste), put combat damage on the stack (trample), discard a Phage the Untouchable"
why does haste matter if volrath's already in play? (if it wasnt casted that turn ofc)
secondly do you mean that no matter what the creature on top i can attack, opponent chose blockers, and then discard, let's say phage, if volrath's has no blocker?

[Atwa]

why does haste matter if volrath's already in play? (if it wasnt casted that turn ofc)
secondly do you mean that no matter what the creature on top i can attack, opponent chose blockers, and then discard, let's say phage, if volrath's has no blocker?

Haste does't matter that much, the card was used for it's flowstone ability, but since casting costs don't matter much in FEB, the one with Haste was used, which has proven to be usefull sometimes.

Yeah, it doesn't really matter which creature Volraths was when you discared Phage, but Akroma is hard as hell to block, so that route was chosen a lot of times. Note that Akroma has gotten weaker with M10, since discarding in response to combat damage was a neat trick with her trample damage.

[Malchar]

3)
"With Volrath's SHapeshifter in play, discard an Akroma, Angel of Wrath, attack (it has haste), put combat damage on the stack (trample), discard a Phage the Untouchable"
why does haste matter if volrath's already in play? (if it wasnt casted that turn ofc)
secondly do you mean that no matter what the creature on top i can attack, opponent chose blockers, and then discard, let's say phage, if volrath's has no blocker?

#1 and #2 are correct.
For #3, haste isn't that important, but you can play the shapeshifter, discard an akroma/hellion, and attack right away.
I'm not sure what you're asking in the second part, but if your opponent doesn't block the shapeshifter, you can discard a phage to win unless your opponent can kill it or something.