[Deck] Kitchen Jund

[The Solution]

Test

[Media314r8]

I don't think you're running nearly enough discard to ever beat combo. Bring those thoughtseizes MD, as running out TS T1 followed by therapy turn two is devestating, and IMO, you will likely side in TS against at least 1/2 of the field. (againsy pretty much everything but red decks) Maelstrom Pulse seems like it does just as good a job of killing counterbalance than MD K Grips seeing that you have the discard to ensure it resolves, while not being dead against aggro decks, which seem like your worst MU. (other than combo, which you pretty much outright lose to G1) Pulse is soooo much better off a bloodbraid than K grip, as it will almost always have a target.

I would suggest:
-2 K Grip
-2 Unearth (too cutesy)
-4 terminate
-1 bloodbraid elf (I'm relatively certain you mull hands with two bloodbraids unless you also have a bird, a tarmogoyf, and 3 lands in it. short of that god-draw, I think you really only want to see 1 max in your opener.)
-1 volrath's stronghold (not good enough to warrent it being a dead draw midgame when you want to curve out)


+4 thoughtseize (psuedo threat-removal)
+3 maelstrom pulse
+2 sensei's diving top (would like to see 3 or 4 main, as it helps prevent bob from doming you so much, as your curve is relatively high, and helps bloodbraid cascade into things more useful than birds, TS vs hellbent opponents, ect)
+1 basic/oran-rief, the vastwood (I realize this is cutesy, but It may be worth trying as a miser's one of, as it makes your finks persist indefinately, and abyss+sun droplet is something good against aggro decks)

[The Solution]

Test

[from Cairo]

I'd definitely run Maelstrom Pulse in there someplace. It's less situational than Terminate or Krosan Grip, so it seems like it makes for a better MD card. Also there is the potential to 2 for 1 with it, which neither of those spells have. Then you could supplement them with SB Grips.

Birds of Paradise seem really awful, the deck isn't super mana intensive and being base Green with two light splashes I don't think the color fixing is worth it. I think the deck would want to have really solid threat density, top decking and Cascading into Birds midgame just seems like a beating.

I'd probably make the following changes: -4 Birds of Paradise, -2 Krosan Grip; +3 Maelstrom Pulse, +2 Eternal Witness, +1 Basic Land.

For the SB I wouldn't run Perish, it Wraths your whole board. If it's there as hate against Progenitus, I'd run Diabolic Edict or Virtue's Ruin. If you were looking for more hate against Tarmogoyf, I'd probably try Shriekmaws or something similar that complements your card advantage and recursion theme. I'd also run Jund Charm over Pyroclasm, all three of it's abilities have applications in Legacy, and two of them are very good against the agro matches you'd board Pyroclasm in for. The RFG graveyard effect can also randomly be good, like versus Ichorid having the option to 'Clasm or Crypt them is pretty good and versus Tribal or w/e cascading into the 2 +1/+1 counters is also really good (it can negate the Persist counter on a Finks for instance) or if they have a bunch of guys out it can just be a 'Clasm.

SB I'd probably run: 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Jund Charm, 3 Ravenous Trap, 3 Krosan Grip, 2 Shriekmaw.

Cool list though, I think Jund is really viable right now, the format has sped up quite a bit so midrange can play the control role, stabilize to the midgame and then just overpower the fast decks.

[Media314r8]

My curve is not that high and I play tons of lands, so there is no need for Sensei's Divining Top.

Total CMC of deck as is: 151. 151/60 cards = 2.52 with no library manipulation. I would say that it would be very beneficial to add top to the deck. As a reference, I put together a FoWfinity deck, with 4 Forces, and 4 Thoughtcast, and decided to add tops, because the average CMC was 1.8. You are also playing 8 fetches, and have nothing to do on turns 1/2 other than therapy, birds, and goyf. Top will give you better consistency, bob flips, and cascades. This seems like a perfect deck for top.



Read my spoiler text again so that you get an idea why I play these recursion cards. Unearth is not situational. It can be cycled and besides that I play 22 creatures. Bloodbraid Elf is the cornerstone of the deck.

I read the primer, and understand that unearth + e witness gives you a recurring blocker for B a turn, or a 2/1 and a dead goyf for BB. Unearth is terribad against CBtop, and is not a threat in itself, but rather requires a threat in your bin to be good. You only run 2 witnesses, so it seems to me that running top would allow you to FIND your threats rather than hoping you've had them and they died that you might abuse the synergy between two 2-ofs.


To Oran-Rief, the Vastwood: Seriously, are you kidding me? Why should I play such a narrow card which does not have that great effect in contrast to its possible cost (non-basic hate)?

It essentially has the same effect as Unearth- it gives you late-game advantage via your utility creatures. Oran-rief allows your finks to persist indefinitely for G a turn, all the while gaining you 2 life. This is essentially the same as Unearth + Witness, except that Oran rief is a land, and does not cost 2 to cycle away if useless. It does, granted, have the drawback of EtB tapped, but it is also a green source in a deck which has 6 1GG creatures. I am suggesting it as a possible alternative to the second copy of a legendary land which does not tap for G. Both have drawbacks, and both give you late-game advantage, but Oran rief works moderately well with most of the creatures in your deck, and exceptionally well with a four of in your deck, whereas volrath's is a second copy of a legendary land that interacts moderately well with all the most of the creatures in your deck, and extremely well with a two-of in your deck, albeit at the cost of (tap) + 2BGG a turn, rather than just the tap (efectively G) finks+rief costs. Test or explain before you discount it. That or acknowledge that perhaps it isn't better to run a second copy of a legendary colorless land that only synergizes with a two-of extremely well. I ~did~ also suggest that another basic land may be better.



Cabal Therapy has too many synergies with the maindeck. I guess I will lose against combo anyway, so playing discard in high numbers is only relevant for control decks. I do not consider Thoughtseize as a creature removal. So I leave two in the sideboard and rather play Cabal Therapy which has a synergy (Birds of Paradise, Bloodbraid Elf, Unearth, Kitchen Finks etc.)

You may be mistaking synergy with 'works with.' Cabal therapy has synergy with veteran explorer. Natural order has synergy with having a copy of progenitus in your library. You can sacrifice a tarmogoyf to therapy, and you can morph a noble hierarch into a tarmogoyf, but neither is too synergistic, the cards just work together to accomplish a slightly more favorable gamestate at the cost of board or card advantage.

Sacrificing a bird to therapy is rarely outstanding in your deck, as discard wants to be played early, and without any other discard spells, your first therapy is likely whiffing. Thus the flashback of a birds may take a card from your opponent's hand, but at this point we assume you've wanted your bird to stay on board to cast things like bloodbraid elf, and your opponent has been playing magic in the meantime, so that flashback may meet a brainstorm drawn in the meantime, or your opponent may no longer have the most threatening card in hand. (IE tarmogoyf, who will come down long before your birds has lived up to its potential after being seen with a blind therapy - forcing you to either two-for-one yourself with birds+therapy, or to continue to use your birds and then hope to snag something you saw with blind therapy at a later time once the birds has run its course.)

While finks has the advantage of saccing to therapy to both get the flashback value and a 1gg gain four life, 2/1, it again comes down pretty late to be outstanding with therapy. To list bloodbraid as synergistic with therapy is laughable. Would you play this card:

'Synergy' 2RGB
Sorcery
As an additional cost to play 'Synergy', exile a card from your hand.
Name a card. Your opponent reveals their hand and discards all copies of the named card, then, ~if~ your opponent did not reveal a card named brainstorm in this manner, name another card and your opponent discards all copies of the named card. Deal 3 damage to that opponent if they have no creatures on the battlefield.
As you play this card, you may play a random non-land card from your deck, no matter how inopurtune it may be.

IMO, thoughtseize is the far superior card in your deck, as you can play it without any other 'synergistic' cards in your hand, and it ALLWAYS takes the best card in your opponent's hand, at the mere cost of B and 2 life, which is much better than sacrificing a creature to possibly get back to card parity with the flashback sometime later in the course of the game.

Terminate is good in T2 because it is an instant, and costs ~less~ than the threats it kills, and is the cheapest available unconditional removal spell in the early game that does not accelerate your opponent.

Swords is good in legacy for the same reasons.

Terminate costs more than goblin lackey (and cannot kill it if your opponent is on the play), and costs the same amount of mana as most every other threat it will ever be pointed at, all the while being in the middle of your curve, and lacking the versatility of pulse. You will likely never play it on two, as you would much rather land bob, goyf, (finks if birds is on board) ect. You play 23 lands and 4 birds, and will likely hit your first three land drops, so pulse seems by and far the better choice. Having terminate on both of your splashes, (I would say you are green based because of the 6 GG creatures) and non-basic hate in the format, combined with the existence of CB/top (with many more 2s in the deck than 3s) and spell snare, just give up your love for terminate and run the more versatile, equally as easy to cast maelstrom pulse.


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I'm not trying to shoot down all of your ideas here, or get into an argument, but understand that decklists do not start optimized, and you posted here to hear our input. Please don't immediately discount advice you receive just because of your personal 'pet cards'.

[The Solution]

Test

[Iare]

@Media314r8: What would your version of this deck look like?

It may sound funny, but after cutting Birds of Paradise and upping the land count to 24, the starting hands were worse and I became very unhappy with the deck. I guess that the recommended changes are worth it and even better than my current build, but I guess that I am doing something wrong with which cards have to be substituted, so that a good advice decklist would help me here.

Concerning Terminate: I realize that Maelstrom Pulse is more versatile, but what about the people that run Diabolic Edict or Smother? It also costs two mana.

Swords to Plowshares.

[The Solution]

Test

[Media314r8]

I run a Rg deck with bloodbraids built to give the middle finger to Ux aggro-control decks. Decklist by memory: (away from home PC)

4x noible hierarch
2x birds of paradise
4x tarmogoyf
4x vexing shusher
3x Troll Ascetic
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Spellbreaker Behemoth

4x Lightning Bolt
3x Burning Wish
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Sword of Fire and Ice

4x Taiga
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
1x Contested Cliffs
7x Forest
2x Mountain

SB wish targets
1x rolling earthquake
1x banefire
1x ruination
1x shaterstorm
1x anarchy
1x reverant silence

I feel that should I play a black list (and light white, red splashes), I would lose the 'can't be countered' theme in favor of CA. I might try (getting really greedy with the mana):

4x Veteran Explorer
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Kitchen Finks
2x Eternal Witness
3x Bloodbraid Elf

4x Sensei's Diving Top
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Maelstrom Pulse

23 lands (this is the really delicate part - probably needs tuning)
3x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x volrath's stronghold
4x Bayou
2x Savanah
2x Taiga
4x verdant catacombs
2x windswept heath
2x marsh flats

SB
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Engineered Plague/Ghostly Prison (depending on how many lords tribal decks in your meta pack)
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Krosan Grip

this list is untested, 4c, and has the potential to explode with T1 explorer, T2 therapy with flashback, have 3 mana up and all of your colors. I think this is where I'd start testing, tweaking, ect. I definately like the 4 tops and 12 shuffle effects. The balance of witness/finks may be off, as with explorer, you have more mana to abuse her recursive ability with. The fourth finks may need to go in the SB, as it looks like decks like burn or goyfsleigh will be tough without them, but that portion of the meta may not need accounted for over things like ichorid/loam with the five GY slots.

EDIT: Looking back at the list, I feel like red is being underused, but it really doesn't do much that white or black can't do better - remove creatures. Ghostly prison is also generally much better against tribal than say, firespout. Perhaps some magma jets and the scry ability will help push the bloodbraids over the edge, but I feel like bolt is just better 80% of the time. I know that I included bloodbraid in my RG list to essentially just make blue decks spend 2 counters for my two spells, but black seems like it would rather just play some number of skelital scrying, hymns, or arenas to generate the same CA without the splash. Perhaps bit blast could be looked into, as 4 damage may be better than a 3/2 haster, even with the CMC of five. GL with the deck concept, but I'm still wondering... why bloodbraid?

EDIT2:

Red may make itself worthy with the SB:
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Jund Charm
3x Ravenous Trap
3x Krosan Grip
3x Boil (or something to kill progenitus - if that's a meta concern)