Mono Black Stax - First Draft

[Mystical_Jackass]

Sup everyone. I've been piecing together some ideas about making a good Mono Black control deck for some time; I've expanded a lot on my original Leyline/Helm concept, combining with some ideas I've gathered from some players here and I believe I've come up with a pretty good start.

The problem with running a "Painter" combo is the ability to protect the combo. However, I pretty much deduced that the best way to protect the combo is either option A) Discard (Hymn, thoughtseize, parallax nexus, brink of madness, etc. list goes on) or B) Stax Approach... wither them away to nothing, then combo off. I chose B, because in my opinion it actually seems more overall secure way to go, with far less dead matchups.

Here's my list so far:

Lands (20)
4 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Urborg (tomb of yawgy)
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
8 Swamp

Spells (40)
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
-------------
4 Leyline the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
-------------
4 Braids, Cabal Biotch
3 Smokestack
-------------
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Bitterblossom
2 Contamination
1 Jitte
1 The Abyss
1 Nether Void
-------------

Most is pretty self explanatory, I really want to run helm combo... anyone who's tried running Bitterblossom stax before knows that you practically kick your own ass... like literally, you kill yourself before you WIN some games when you have it in the bag, and it friggin sucks :P Helm combo allows you to be down to 4 life vs opponents ~15 and win, this deck doesn't necessarily HAVE to win that way but its there and that's what counts.

I like Phyrexian Arena doing some testing with it, you lose some life but you draw through your deck faster while fullfilling the same fundamental requirement for Stax, outplaying opponent in terms of permanents. I've actually liked it almost more than blossom, blossom is great as long as you can control it (aka Stack)

Chrome mox vs mox diamond: Higher spell count, because I had to fit in combo I really couldn't find any other way of doing it. Cutting like 5 spells in my deck to include more lands just isn't as easy as it seems.

Let me know your criticism 'cause I'm planning on playing in next tourny and I want to do good, thnx

[Gocho]

The single cards without tutors always seems a little random:

1 Jitte
1 The Abyss
1 Nether Void

I understand that the single Mishra could be replayed with Crucible but you must choose between the other 3 cards and up from 1 to 3.

Maybe you can put another cards int the sideboard.

[Sevryn]

Smallpox can be pretty good in this sort of deck, as it can better deal with losing two permanents than most other deck-types.

[jebus]

Following up on the 3 random cards: well, these may be the ones to cut to up the land count and shift from Chrome Mox to Mox Diamond.

Mox Diamond just seems to fit your gameplan much better than Chrome Mox does. You already have Crucible to offset the loss of discarding a land, and the way your deck looks right now, you only have 20 black cards and wouldn't want to imprint any of them unless you draw a second copy.

I'd go
-3 Jitte/Abyss/Nether Void
-4 Chrome Mox
+4 Mox Diamond
+3 lands (Factories and Wastelands, probably. And maybe Urborg #3)

[FieryBalrog]

I don't think Phyrexian Arena justifies its spot. Between Bitterblossom and Arena, I would rather pick the Blossom since it combines well with the Stax concept. As it is, Bitterblossom can sometimes kill you because of Ancient Tomb and other decks beating on you while you stabilize.

Also, this deck desperately needs some creature defense. White Stax lists run some combination of Moat, Ghostly Prison, Humility, Armageddon and Magus of the Tabernacle to deal with creatures. I don't think a slow Stax deck can get away with having 1 The Abyss to deal with them.

[Illissius]

The Abyss and Nether Void seem to me like the two biggest reasons to use black -- one in the main, the other in the side. I don't think it's a good idea to build around Braids, because of her being so vulnerable; which doesn't mean you can't still play her, just don't make having her live an integral part of your game plan. And Contamination definitely looks too situational.

[Infinitium]

Having played Black Stax before I'd say drop Helm. Yes, it wins on the spot conditionally, but it isn't fast enough to win before you'd either lose beforehand or establish control (at which point winning is a formality).

The key cards to build around imo (ie things that white doesn't do better) are main Leyline , Cranial Extraction from the side and arguably Unmask (since it actually deals with troublesome cards G1). And that's it. Sure there's cards like The Abyss and Bitterblossom, but the white analogues like Humility and Elspeth are simply better.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Thanks for the feedback.

Getting a few different opinions, which is good.

Just to get a consensus;

1) Mox Diamond > Chrome, cut back to include moar land. Everyone agrees with that?

2) Braids. Yes or no? I've heard players tell me this deck NEEDS her, heard someone say otherwise. So far, seems pretty good, trini/void protect her well -- thoughts?

3) Helm Combo vs. 7 more Slots? My experience... it's so good WHEN IT WORKS! lol Dropping would allow me more slots to fill out for consistency and defense, but I'd lose my Painter win cond. Is that such a bad thing?

4) Bitterblossom vs The Abyss. There is somewhat disynergy here, is it better to run one or the other.

5) 3 Trinisphere, 1 Nethervoid: My "idea" was that Nethervoid would be sorta like my 4th Trinisphere. Is this one of those "not worth it" things, should I take it out or just increase it to like 2 of?


Phyrexian Arena I am keeping for now just because i've liked it a lot, but I might cut down to 2. I agree with Contamination being weak, maybe I'll consider SB. Thanks

EDIT: Quick question. What does everyone think about running Karn + Abyss, as a deck concept and win condition instead?

[badjuju]

Would Bloodghast be a good addition to MBStax decks?

[FieryBalrog]

If he could block, but since he can't, I would doubt it. The only thing he's good for is to get sac'd to smokestack.

[Moczoc]

Nether Spirit would be better.

- 1 Crucible
- 1 Jitte
- 1 The Abyss

+ 2 Nether Spirit
+ 1 Nether Void

[Sevryn]

If he could block, but since he can't, I would doubt it. The only thing he's good for is to get sac'd to smokestack.

This can actually be worth it if you like ramping up smokestack past 1 counter. If you like just chillin' at 1, bloodghast is not worth it.

[Burrito]

It maybe sounds ridiculous :smile: but maybe Colfenor's Plans could be viable in this kind of list? It helps you find your combo pieces and with that many sac outlets one could easily get rid of it. The play one spell per turn limitation shouldn't either be a problem either since Stax seldom wants to play more than spell per turn. Just a thought.

[Mystical_Jackass]

It maybe sounds ridiculous :smile: but maybe Colfenor's Plans could be viable in this kind of list? It helps you find your combo pieces and with that many sac outlets one could easily get rid of it. The play one spell per turn limitation shouldn't either be a problem either since Stax seldom wants to play more than spell per turn. Just a thought.

That's definitely a descent idea, the only problem is gonna be having room of course to fit it in. In the current list I ran it'd replace Arena, which would allow me to pretty much "Sylvan Library" the top 7 cards of my deck each turn while recurring a land with Crucible to keep my permanents up. I'll look into it.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In other news, just finished Legacy tournament the other day and finished a modest 2-2. Hey, but of the matches I lost all went into game3 and were very close so I can't feel bad about it.

The list I used, since I didn't have the time to tinker and change with Mox Diamonds, was much like the first one with Helm/Void combo except I ran 3x maindeck Engineered Plague (slick, I know) which actually proved useful in several matches although next time I'ma just keep for SB :wink:

Match 1 vs Brainfreeze deck:
Game1; Turn1 chalice followed by trinisphere then bitterblossom won me quick game, but didn't get to see him do anything but a quick brainstorm or two. Game2, kept a hand with Leyline & helm but maybe hsouldnt have since had no lockdown which is my bad for underestimating... I tried to play Braids and Trini and they both got countered, at 5 mana I misplayed 'cause I could've gone for win with Helm but with 5 cards in his hand I assumed he had another counter, he didn't, played smokestack, next turn he stormed out and decked me. Game3, I underestimated how fast his deck was... game 2 it seemed to take him much longer but anyways, turn3 I attempted to play nether Void which almost woulda locked him outta the game, in response he goes for it and storms out on me.
0-1

Match 2 vs Reanimator:
I'll keep this short, game1 started with chalice1 eventually followed with braids and crucible, he got a buried alive but that's as far as he got since I sealed it with nether void. Game2, started game with double Leyline of Void Lol, he had a laugh at that. Dropped a Blossom and pretty much got to take my time till I got out a smokestack, he scoops.
1-1

Match 3 vs Countertop wizards
Game1, he mulligans to 6 and goes first playing land, I respond playing Trinisphere he has to force of will it. I followup with bitterblossom, he has no answers... we then proceed to pass back and forth playing land and not doing much, by time he got out threats there were too many tokens, he makes it close by playing cryptic command tapping down my tokens and bouncing blossom then swining but just a little too late, I won at 4 life. Game2 he got DT/countertop out by turn 2 and managed to shut down every attempt to land a stax or trini, I managed to get an Engineered Plague naming wizards and turn his 2x wizards into 1/1's, he had me locked out because he boarded in plague of his own and would counter all my 3cc's, I had second engineered plague, phyrex Arena, and ensnaring bridge in hand but needed force him into having to reshuffle somehow, I dropped smokestack and he lets it roll, by then I was low on life, at 7 or so, we both sac off lands (he goes down to like 2-3) but it wasn't gonna be enough to make a difference, he attacks when I was at 3 life putting me down to 1, at this point I'm pretty much thinking its over, then by some luck of hte magic gods I topdeck Helm of Obedience!!! with exactly 4 lands out, one being city ROFL I could not believe it, I play it.. he had no responses; game @.@ That had to be one of most epic luckiest comebacks ever lol
2-1

Match 4 vs Zoo
Game1, she went first, I started with leyline in play and kept hand which had helm, she played kird ape. I wasted land passed, she played another land swung, I played city and chaliced at 1, she played tarmogoyf... Lol! Yayy -.- The turn I was gonna play helm she played pridemage lol, shoot.. she won this one. Game2, I had a much better start, chalice@1 followed by a trinisphere then dystopia then Braids, eventually I got a crucible out and she wasted no time scooping to play next game. Game 3 I started with Leyline in play, she had another explosive start with critters, I had an ok hand but lacked power lands to speed me up unfortunately, got chalice@1 out turn2 but needed to respond fast before I lose, drew and played a dystopia which took out her goyf, she sac'd pridemage to destroy chalice then followed next turn with kird & nactl, I was getting nervous at 6 life but just when I started to look like I could turn it around and pull it off with blossom out with fairy equipped to jitte and factory for block she finds a double bolt ftw :) ah well, gg's.
2-2

All in all, I think this sorta deck has much potential. Games were just neck and neck, I felt like I had a very good chance winning each one which is great. Deck needs to be tinkered, diamonds need to be added. Nether Void performed great I must say, one of my fav cards this time, like the games where I'd drop trini, blossom, then follow by Nether... it was just plain funny like the time the one guy was confused and asked how much it'll cost to play a 1cc spell then... "well... with trini it's gonna be at least 3... plus another 3, so yeah... you're looking at 6", he looks down at his 3 lands, looks like he was counting the turns, and's like "okay, next game :)" Frustratingly fun spell to use lol

[Illissius]

When thinking about Black Stax I'm usually inclined to build it something like this:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
2 Null Brooch

4 Powder Keg
4 Maze of ith
4 The Abyss
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal

2 Sorin Markov

4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
7 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Braids, Cabal Minion
SB: 3 Nether Void

Given that (a) it's Black Stax and (b) I built it I'm sure it's terrible, but if nothing else as an illustration of the directions you can take the deck it works. The Abyss plus Maze of Ith is just obscene. Mr. Markov is in there because he's capable of killing people without dying to The Abyss, and also aids the "have thy opponent board out all of their removal so you can rape them with Braids in game two" plan. As for the concrete list, it probably needs another land or two.

[Zinch]

When thinking about Black Stax I'm usually inclined to build it something like this:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Smokestack
2 Null Brooch

4 Powder Keg
4 Maze of ith
4 The Abyss
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal

2 Sorin Markov

4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
7 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 4 Braids, Cabal Minion
SB: 3 Nether Void

Given that (a) it's Black Stax and (b) I built it I'm sure it's terrible, but if nothing else as an illustration of the directions you can take the deck it works. The Abyss plus Maze of Ith is just obscene. Mr. Markov is in there because he's capable of killing people without dying to The Abyss, and also aids the "have thy opponent board out all of their removal so you can rape them with Braids in game two" plan. As for the concrete list, it probably needs another land or two.

Wow! I realy like this deck! It ccould be because I'm in love with mono black...
I'm going to test this with some minor changes:

- 2 Null Broch
- 1 Night's of souls' betrayal (direct to the SB)
- 1 The Abyss

+ 1 Swamp
+ 1 Sorin Markov
+ 2 Liliana Vess (I think you need more finishers without any card draw in the deck)

[Mystical_Jackass]

No that actually seems like a pretty descent list, the things maybe I'd do different might be something like:

-2 Night of Soul's Betrayal
-2 Sorin
+4 Braids

Sorin is too expensive to play... realistically your not gonna go past like 4 lands much 'cause those will be what you'll sac to stacks most. It's not that Night is bad, but like I mentioned before I'd rather just resort to sideboarding Engineered Plague, it was amazing in some matches and just non-existent in other. Braids was way good though. Although she may be more vulnerable than Stack, she's far more aggressive 'cause she's not only a smokestack that can attack while you run them out of lands which is an advantage on its own, but she comes out with a "soot counter" already on her so she can immediately start owning them :smile: But you already know that anyway >.>

-4 Maze of Ith
+2 Swamp
+2 Factory

I just think Factory is a much more versatile land... well, for one it can be used offensively to win, or defensively to infinitely chump block or kill with crucible, but secondly it can also be used as a mana source on its own. I just would not want to start the game with a Maze in my hand, I love the card in EDH but it'd be like setting myself a turn back while I'm stuck with 3-4cc cards in my hand :\ I know mox diamond deffinitely makes a difference, but still part of me thinks I could get screwed some games lol, I could totally be wrong though

I like the use of powder keg though, that seems like that could be a really versatile way of taking out early rushes and acceleration... bam, gbye vial and lackey.
On another note, since I'll be SB'ing Leyline too, I'm actually thinking of SB 3x Helm too. It can be something I bring out all at once against control decks like I did before. Null Brooch seems interesting.. kinda slow and odd, since you'd think my chalice/trini's would take care of the countering for me but worth testing nonetheless :)

EDIT: Again, with Sorin. SInce I noticed someone else commented on him :) ...you're just gonna have to play test, see what I mean. It was literally like the "end" of my games I'd finally be able to reach 6 mana, just does not seem effective in this sorta deck at all I'm telling you. With cabal coffers in more a Train Wreck I totally see it being viable, or in Type 2, but playing against how fast some of these decks came at me there's just no way you can run 6cc spells and the fact you're suggesting running 3x Sorin, 2x Liliana is insane lol

[Illissius]

The problem with those changes is:
- Braids + The Abyss is not a combo.
- The Abyss is less awesome when you can't combo it with Maze.
- I don't think "swing 10 times with Braids" is going to be a viable win condition.

If you're going to go that route I think you should move The Abyss to the sideboard (or just straight up cut it) and put some Nether Voids maindeck, and then add some other way of handling creatures in its place (Damnation? I dunno. At least black isn't lacking in the ways to kill creatures department), and that also lets you run some better win conditions, like Tombstalker or whatever. You could also try putting the Blossoms back in. As you can see, the Abyss having and Abyss not having versions end up diverging quite a bit.

As for Sorin Markov being too expensive to cast in my list, that's very possible; I haven't actually tested the deck. The Abyss rather constrains your options in the win condition department, Karn and Leyline/Helm are probably the other major ones. The latter might not even be impossible to fit in: cutting Sorin, Brooch, and NoSB gives you six slots, and assuming you dedicate one of those to another land you only need to make two more cuts to fit 4 Leyline + 3 Helm in. This also frees up space in the board for something awesome like Dystopia.


Wow! I realy like this deck! It ccould be because I'm in love with mono black...
I'm going to test this with some minor changes:

- 2 Null Broch
- 1 Night's of souls' betrayal (direct to the SB)
- 1 The Abyss

+ 1 Swamp
+ 1 Sorin Markov
+ 2 Liliana Vess (I think you need more finishers without any card draw in the deck)

These changes seem reasonable. NoSB isn't integral to the deck or anything, it just seemed interesting and goes with the game plan so I put some in. (Same for Null Brooch, for that matter, along with just having an unhealthy affection for the card.)

You may be right about the win conditions thing. Liliana doesn't seem terribly impressive, though;... but most Planeswalkers don't seem terribly impressive upon first glance so I'm quite possibly wrong. She doesn't look to be so great at killing people, at any rate: some decks barely run creatures and you still have The Abyss complicating things. If anything, the tutoring ability looks like it might be useful if it's not too slow.

Edit: Something that makes artifact creature tokens would be a good fit, but all of the existing options are slow as fuck. Myr Matrix is the least horrible one.

[Malchar]

If you use Colfenor's Plans, you should definitely keep Phyrexian Arena as well. With the arena in play, you can still draw cards after you have the plans in play. Also, you can do things like this:
1. Play Colfenor's Plans
2. Find a Phyrexian Arena in the top seven.
3. Play the arena.
4. Continue to draw cards each turn while also having access to the plans.
That said, I don't necessarily think that Colfenor's is worth it. I haven't tested it at all.

After minimal testing of a much older shell than this, I found that Braids really was the MVP. In my opinion, it's one of the main reasons to play black stax because Braids is like having four more Smokestacks. The biggest problem is that you can't sacrifice your own enchantments to her.

Also, I used Dark Ritual, which can help to give you more chances to play first turn bombs. It is rather counter to the stax strategy, but at the same time, it is a black staple. To increase the first turn threat count, I also used Hypnotic Specter (rather than the Helm of Obedience combo).

Edit: Another card that you might want to consider is Koskun Falls. It's the black version of Propaganda granted that it's also a bit worse.

[grahf]

Seems that you would need Bitterblossom or Braids out to pay the upkeep for Koskun Falls, which is kinda unfortunate. Although if you need protection from swarm aggro (and you probably do), neither The Abyss nor Ensnaring Bridge is going to be terribly effective. Even one card in hand, and a horde of 1/1's will get in under the Bridge.

Bridge+Null Brooch, now there's a (silly) combo. Just be sure to have a Smokestack out to get rid of the Bridge when you need to win.

As long as I'm throwing out random ideas, how about Razormane Masticore, which should annihilate just about any creature? Even a 7/8 Tarmo you could ping and attack into without fear, thanks to first strike. It won't get sucked into the Abyss, either.

Good luck on developing the deck, guys. It would be cool if other colors of Stax besides white were viable.

[Mystical_Jackass]

The problem with those changes is:
- Braids + The Abyss is not a combo.
- The Abyss is less awesome when you can't combo it with Maze.
- I don't think "swing 10 times with Braids" is going to be a viable win condition.

Unfortunately I only have access to one Abyss atm, just to be completely realistic lol :frown: (its kinda $$)

I see what you're saying, bad synergy. For now, I guess I'll stick with Braids... but in all fairness, I think someone else said it but I do think she's pretty much the reason to play Black Stax.

-Ghostly Prison vs Abyss
-Elspeth vs Bitterblossom
-Armageddon vs.. "not havint it"? lol Damnation, etc.

Either way, when it comes down to it though dude Black falls short, but it does have:
-Braids
-Nether Void
-Leyline/Helm

Regardless how you define better at this or that, these are the "only" real spells that seem to do somethint White Stax can't do better, or set it apart imo
You say Braids doesn't win, but you deff should try it, it's called "I scoop, lets try that again" lol. Picture you drop Trini, Crucible, Braids respectively.. or Trini, blossom, Braids... or well played chalice, ...etc. You make it tough for them to play permanents, following her drop they're gonna have to start sac'ing permanents (generally lands), once they fall below 2 that's almost always game for them. The reason she's dangerous because of that is because she CAN attack... if it was smokestack you could wither them down to nothing, BUT you'd still have to figure out how you're gonna win ya know, like how white uses Magus, etc. She can do both at once. So yeah, you say swing for 10 turns but 99% players see it and start scooping up their cards. Black Stax is more aggressive with her, unlike White stax they throw up their defensive lock till geddon... then slowly but surely get Smokestack out and start winning where the way I see it is Black sorta just goes for the throat right off the bat lol.

[FieryBalrog]

I (and others, including the guy who won the Phill 5k) have been running Baneslayer Angel in White Stax for just that reason. Sometimes you need a big monster to just take advantage of some momentary advantages or a soft lock in your favor and seal the deal. Kind of like having your opponent off balance for a second in karate or whatever and then going for the killing blow while they are helpless instead of letting them recover. (Now I look like a retard because I used a karate analogy).

I run Tombstalker in my Bitterblossom Stax deck for a similar purpose, you sometimes just want a big dumb animal to smash the opponent while they deal with all the crap you are throwing at them. Tombstalker doesn't have lifelink (which is sooo nice in a deck with Ancient Tomb and Bitterblossom) but it is wayyy cheaper to cast.

IMO Black Stax comes down to a choice between running Bitterblossom and The Abyss... each shapes the deck in different ways. If you run BB then I think 2x Tombstalker and 2x Jitte are good. Also I like Ensnaring Bridge + Bottled Cloister for a creature lock in that case, with Damnation as backup when they try to extend past the Bridge in anticipation of destroying it and alpha striking.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I totally agree with what you're saying, I'm a huge fan of Tombstalker in Pox when I played. It was an idea I played with, deffinitely still can test out, but disregarded thinking mainly on the fact that it's BB and comes out a little slow in comparison with Pox. Sometimes all it takes is one creature to sneak through to win it.

Funny you mentioned, A friend of mine who's one of top leg players in state gave me idea of Bottled Cloister + Ensnaring Bridge in my build. It led me to trying something like this:


v1.2

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@ BRAIDS STAX @@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Land (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 Swamp
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory

Spells (35)
4 Mox Diamond
------------------
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Nether Void
------------------
4 Braids, Cabal Minion
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
------------------
3 The Abyss
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Bottled Cloister


=====SIDEBOARD=====
4 Leyline the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
4 Dystopia
4 Engineered Plague
===================

Does that sound like a more solid all around build? Few other ideas I'm toying with: Silent Arbiter, Bitterblossom, Powder Keg, Grafted Skullcap/Bloodghast/bridge.

[joey223]

What would you guys say about adding Necroplasm? I think he can possibly fit somewhere in the deck, and maybe Zombie Infestation too. (no BB) Plus Infestation could help get cards in the graveyard to help Tombstalker? I don't have braids so I think I might add tombstalker in replacement. Thanks! :smile:

[Mystical_Jackass]

Zombie Infestation.... meh, I'm not sure about that one. Necroplasm, that seems like a good idea against aggro.

Oh, and btw went 1-3 @.@! Lol, just got steam rolled over by aggro: Death & Taxes, Ichorid, & Merfolk were my losses. Just getting rushed by Isamaru's, Merfolk and such made me realize how fragile I was when opponent snuck through even 2-3 creatures; My deck was like a friggin' Sieve, I just sorta smile and die I gotta figure something out there lol.

Although, I was running list above but was missing 3x ensnaring bridge, 2x city of traitors Rofl, which sorta defeated the point of doing that at all! Anyways, still I think joey has right direction with Necroplasm... I'd tried dropping engineered plagues against merfolk and once that got forced I was stuck with smokestack, Braids, etc. The deck's gonna need a lot more answers to shut down aggro 'cause I dont wanna get murdered by tribal every single time.

so far, my plan:

+2 Wastes (damn you Karakas!)
+3 Factory
+2 Maze of Ith
-X swamp (I'll figure it out)

-2 The Abyss
-1 Braids
+ (something)

The last slot could be Phyrexian Totem, Necroplasm, Damnation... and a recent idea I've had was Bane of the Living. Needs testing

[Mad-Hatter]

The last slot could be Phyrexian Totem, Necroplasm, Damnation... and a recent idea I've had was Bane of the Living. Needs testing


Bane of the living could be cool idea. Test it, I think its better idea than other ones you listed there.

[qop0328]

I was trying to come up with a Mono Black Stax deck awhile back. It had four Smokestacks and four Braids with the main kill condition being Eater Of Days. I think that its drawback actually ends up helping if played properly. Anyone have any opinions on using one or two eaters?

[Mystical_Jackass]

Horrible creature. You're giving your opponent 3 turns for an "artifact, creature" (easy removed, no shroud) that requires 2-3 swings to win.

Karn would be hella better as a finisher in comparison, he can turn stax and crucibles into 4/4, 3/3 beaters with one City and smash them.

It's a hella gamble, but the main point that I'm getting at regardless of removal is that it is horrible on its own; I don't see any stifles, so the way I'm reading into it is that you would already break them with Stax, which would allow you to play that for the win hoping you'd lock them by then. Problem's that it's just "win more" at that point, you should have access to or draw into factories or braids that would lock them out and seal the game...... it doesn't matter what you win with, it could be a 1/1 goat at that point, you lock them out of land with Trinisphere and some sorta recurrance engine and it's over for many decks with only a few exceptions like Dredge that, do some stuff.

[yougo]

sorry for posting my black stack idea i just didnt think someone already post that type of list and i gotta say that i like a lot the last list you put v.1.2 seem like the strongest so far but my question is you really wanna cut 7 swamp to put all your fancy land and does maze of ith is really that necessary

necroplasm seems like a hell of a good idea but cost bb

here is what my new look at the deck would be

mana 26

4 mox diamond
2 chrome mox
3 mishras factory
2 urborg
4 city
4 tomb
7 swamp

creature 5

2 braids cabal minion
3 necroplasm

stack 21

4 chalice
4 3sphere
4 smokestack
3 bridge
3 the abyss

producer 7

3 bitterblossom
4 crucible of world

draw 4

4 bottle cloister


or take 2

a more conservator stack deck the one i use to play wich more lock possibilitys

mana 25

2 urborg
4 mox diamond
1 chrome mox
4 city of trator
4 ancient tomb
3 mishras factory
7 swamp

creature 3

3 nether spirit

stack 21

4 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
4 smokestack
3 the abyss
3 ensenaring bridge
3 contamination

producer 7

3 bitter blossom
4 crucible of world

disrupt 4

4 Last Rites (replace with bottle cloister i think its just better)

my sideboard at the time was

4 leyline of the void
3 helm of obediance
4 serum powder
4 engenaring plague

i think thought that the deck need to find a direction or a balance between those 2 list

should we run contamination ?
should we run spell like damnation or other mass removal if aggro is the problem ?
necroplasm i think is a great creture but then you lose the spirit bloodghast i think cant replace him or can he?
should we run bloodghast with fetch?
should we run bitter blossom ? it seems to me like an obvious choice

btw if by any chance we start using bloodghast with fetch then how about ob nixilis it seem to me like a game breaker creture when your mana flood or have a soft lock on your favor just like FieryBalrog explain hes of course talking about tombstalker but then ob nixilis look like at least big like the 2012 movie :cool:

[Mystical_Jackass]

First off, thanks for posting. I deffinitely wish I had more answers but I need more help play testing and more players like you.

Versus slower decks that don't start dropping till 2-3 turns, this deck just annihilates them but its just been the Zoo, Merfolk, Soldiers, etc. that come out fast and pack big damage, I've had trouble dealing with.

Nether Spirit might be a descent idea, I've run it in the past and gotten ok results. The deck just needs some fallback... everything else performs amazing, it just needs a 'Deed' spell to fall back on so you dont die before you win lol (till they make a black Propaganda...minus that waterfall >.<). Here's ideas people've brainstormed:

- powder keg
- necroplasm
- bane of the living
- damnation
- ensnaring bridge
- Silent Arbiter
SB:
- dystopia (zoo, enchantress, white stax [haha])
- engineered plague (tribal, dredge)

Beat Zoo & Tribal consistently. That's my goal; combo and other random shizzle we can figure out later, but we have Leyline and Trinisphere... there's not really a lot to discuss for that lol. Like, either you win or f'up and dont

I persinally wouldn't run contamination or bloodghast. Contamination is too slow and unpredictable... does too much same as chalice, trini. It'd compliment Pox far better. BLoodghast wants to attack, it fits better in an aggro deck.

[Steveman]

So here's my rough sketch of Black Stax. I've been playing Angel Stax for the past 4 years, so I think I have a rough idea of what this deck would want

26 LAND
X10 Swamp
X4 Ancient Tomb
X3 Wasteland
X3 Mishra’s Factory
X3 City of Traitors
X2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
X1 Volrath’s Stronghold

34 Spells
X4 Mox Diamond
X4 Trinisphere
X4 Chalice of the Void
X4 Crucible of Worlds
X4 Damnation
X4 Smokestack
X3 Braids, Cabal Minion
X3 Silent Arbiter
X2 Nethervoid
X2 Powder Keg

15 Sideboard
X4 Leyline of the Void
X3 Engineered Explosives
X3 Pithing Needle
X3 Ensnaring Bridge
X2 Powder Keg

Lands are pretty standard, we have 16 black sources is enough to support Damnation / Braids, especially since we have Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Volrath's Stronghold gets back our Braids to ensure that we keep the pressure on the opponent's board.

Most of the deck is pretty standard: Trinisphere / Crucible / Chalice / Smokestack are all self explanatory.

The main reasons to play Black Stax over White Stax are NETHER VOID and BRAIDS. Although I haven't tested this deck yet, I'm kind of skeptical about Nether Void because unlike Trinisphere, it is a true double-edged sword, so you need to have board control before you can lay it down or else you're gonna be spending 7 mana to Damnation your opponent's Tarmogoyf.

Damnation, IMO, is a NECESSITY. My Angel Stax deck features 4 Wrath of God and it is just an absolute bomb against most decks. It fits perfectly for Stax's game plan of clearing the board, not to mention netting card advantage and buying time to set up the lock.

The last 5 slots I had trouble with thinking what would be optimal. I figured 2 Powder Kegs wouldn't hurt, so the last 3 slots were between Silent Arbiter and Ensnaring Bridge. I decided to go with Silent Arbiter because he's the closest thing to Magus of the Tabernacle that we can get. If he proves to be lackluster during testing, I will try out Ensnaring Bridge.

As far as the sideboard goes, the standout card is Engineered Explosives. Right now it's just in testing phase, but Engineered Explosives is THE ONLY card besides Nevinyrral's Disk that can take out enchantments. That, and it's randomly good against AEther Vial based decks, Zoo, Enchantress, 43Land, Belcher, etc.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Thanks for sharing the list, that sounds good for what the deck needs. Forgot about Stronghold lol

Wouldn't you think Dystopia > EE in this deck since it runs one color? What are your thoughts on Maze of Ith?

[Steveman]

Thanks for sharing the list, that sounds good for what the deck needs. Forgot about Stronghold lol

Wouldn't you think Dystopia > EE in this deck since it runs one color? What are your thoughts on Maze of Ith?

The Dystopia vs EE debate I really can't answer because I actually haven't done any testing with this deck yet (I will once school is done). EE is the more versatile card, so the question is what do we need NEED to answer that Dystopia can and EE can't?

My thoughts on Maze of Ith? I dont like it be cause it doesn't tap for mana. The only way I'd play it in Stax is as a singleton of in a GW Stax list featuring Knight of the Reliquary. Seeing how we don't have any tutors, I don't think it's worth it.

I'm actually thinking about swapping out Nethervoid for The Abyss. Nethervoid requires you to already have established board control while The Abyss helps you control the board. I think The Abyss goes along more with our strategy of constantly eating our opponents board. Also, Nethervoid is a true double-edged sword, meaning we can get screwed over just as hard as our opponents while The Abyss only eats our Braids; Silent Arbiter lives through The Abyss and Mishra's Factory gets through too.

[Sevryn]

On a more (deck) philosophical note: what can black offer that gives it ANY advantage over white-stax?

I'm not asking this to be a jerk in the N/D forum, I made up a black-stax list and played on MWS for a bit. I played a belcher deck and drew the nuts game 3 to win (first turn chalice-for-zero and sphere of resistance). But then I got matched up against a white-stax deck. Even when I got into good positions, like having smokestack and crucible AND he doesnt have crucible, he had outs because he had oblivion ring. He also has flagstones, which made it very hard to have my board be less vulnerable to stax than his. To top it off, he could reset most of the board with geddon (after O-ring on my crucible).

I feel really frustrated after this matchup, because I like black stax and want very much for it to be good, but until Wizards prints us Flagstones of Urborg and Yawgmoth's Ring, I just don't know why I'm not playing white.

[Steveman]

On a more (deck) philosophical note: what can black offer that gives it ANY advantage over white-stax?

I'm not asking this to be a jerk in the N/D forum, I made up a black-stax list and played on MWS for a bit. I played a belcher deck and drew the nuts game 3 to win (first turn chalice-for-zero and sphere of resistance). But then I got matched up against a white-stax deck. Even when I got into good positions, like having smokestack and crucible AND he doesnt have crucible, he had outs because he had oblivion ring. He also has flagstones, which made it very hard to have my board be less vulnerable to stax than his. To top it off, he could reset most of the board with geddon (after O-ring on my crucible).

I feel really frustrated after this matchup, because I like black stax and want very much for it to be good, but until Wizards prints us Flagstones of Urborg and Yawgmoth's Ring, I just don't know why I'm not playing white.

I feel the exact same way. Let's do some comparisons

Here are the main reasons why I believe White is pretty much almost strictly superior

1.) Flagstones > Urborg. One major flaw that I saw in Black Stax is that it cannot sustain a ramped Smokestack for too long.

2.) Armageddon

3.) Much better kill conditions (Elspeth / Baneslayer Angel)

The 3 cards that Black has to offer that White doesn't have

1.) Braids

2.) The Abyss

3.) Nethervoid

Today I did some testing and came down to the conclusion that The Abyss might just be the most ridiculous card I've ever seen in a Stax deck. However, it has two downsides: it is HORRIBLE with Braids (but is pretty nifty with Silent Arbiter) and is a WORLD Enchantment, meaning you can't have Nethervoid and The Abyss in play at the same time, so you probably wouldn't want both of them in one deck. Also, since it's basically "Legendary," you would not want to play more than 3 (I am currently playing 2).

So after finding out that Braids + The Abyss isn't exactly the greatest combo in the world, I've decided that they cannot co-exist together in a deck and that one of them has to go. Unfortunately, I feel that The Abyss is the one that has to go. Why? Because Black doesn't have Armageddon and Braids is one of the few cards that eats land. I'd much rather keep The Abyss, but what would we play over Braids?

Black has some pretty awesome cards like Dark Confidant, Bitterblossom, and Tombstalker. However, all the good cards are HORRIBLE with each other. Let's say you play all 3 of these in one deck: Bitter Blossom slowly eats your life and Dark Confidant reveals Tombstalker... The beauty in White is that all their best cards work great together where all of Black's best cards are horrible together.

[Illissius]

The 3 cards that Black has to offer that White doesn't have

1.) Braids

2.) The Abyss

3.) Nethervoid

Today I did some testing and came down to the conclusion that The Abyss might just be the most ridiculous card I've ever seen in a Stax deck. However, it has two downsides: it is HORRIBLE with Braids (but is pretty nifty with Silent Arbiter) and is a WORLD Enchantment, meaning you can't have Nethervoid and The Abyss in play at the same time, so you probably wouldn't want both of them in one deck. Also, since it's basically "Legendary," you would not want to play more than 3 (I am currently playing 2).

So after finding out that Braids + The Abyss isn't exactly the greatest combo in the world, I've decided that they cannot co-exist together in a deck and that one of them has to go. Unfortunately, I feel that The Abyss is the one that has to go. Why? Because Black doesn't have Armageddon and Braids is one of the few cards that eats land. I'd much rather keep The Abyss, but what would we play over Braids?

This is why I think the best plan is to have The Abyss in the main and Braids + Nether Void in the side, or vice versa, depending on what kind of metagame you expect. In the former case, a nice side benefit is you're probably going to be something like totally creatureless game one, so you can use Braids to catch them with their pants down in game two if they board out removal.

As for killing lands, Waste/Crucible and Smokestack both do that, but as I don't actually play Stax, I don't know how sufficient that is.

[Darkenslight]

My suggestion for Steveman's would be to drop 1 Damnation and the 3 Braids for 4 Diabolic Edicts. Also, I agree with having one major hate-on plan main with another in the board.

Also, how have the Pithings been in testing? I'd get the impression that they'd be better as something else, but I'm not sure what.

[Steveman]

My suggestion for Steveman's would be to drop 1 Damnation and the 3 Braids for 4 Diabolic Edicts. Also, I agree with having one major hate-on plan main with another in the board.

Also, how have the Pithings been in testing? I'd get the impression that they'd be better as something else, but I'm not sure what.

Pithing Needle is to answer Stax's #1 enemy: Pernicious Deed.

I think I'm gonna keep testing Braids with either The Abyss (but go down to 2 Braids and 3 The Abyss). If I keep getting some inconsistencies between the two, I'll swap The Abyss with Nethervoid and see how that works out.

[Infinitium]

Pithing Needle is to answer Stax's #1 enemy: Pernicious Deed.

Unfortunately, decks playing Deed are invariably going to side in Grip anyway (or may even play Pridemage to begin with), generally making conservative play and Cranial Extraction the better sideboard plan.

[Darkenslight]

Unfortunately, decks playing Deed are invariably going to side in Grip anyway (or may even play Pridemage to begin with), generally making conservative play and Cranial Extraction the better sideboard plan.

But would it not then be better to play Sadistic Sacrament, or Cranial? The triple B cost in Sacrament is a hindrance, but it's more versatile in which cards to kill.

Also, where's the Extirpates? I would have thought that was a staple.

[FieryBalrog]

You yourself pointed out why Sadistic Sacrament sucks. Triple-B is hideous in a Stax deck that is relying on Tombs and Cities.

And no, extirpate isn't a staple. Extirpate sucks in the main board.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Black Stax vs White Stax.

White Stax has the edge in a lot, but Black's main edge seems like it comes from the SB.
- Leyline the Void (Dredge, Reanimator, Thresh)
- Engineered Plague (Goblins, Merfolk, Enchantress)
- Dystopia (Zoo, Enchantress, Elves, White Stax)

In a mirror I really think Black Stax has far better chance than you make sound. Especially from board, you bring in Dystopia's and Leyline the Void (if you start game with :O! lol) that can really shut them down, throw in a few Helm for kicks you have a good chance. It's one of those games you could literally dystopia down to 5 life, as long as you pull ahead. I mirrored a long time ago, my deck was crappier then, and lost game3 but I think my chances would be better now with Braids & Void. It's almost a more akward matchup than Pox vs Pox lol

A lot of anything comes down to the player and the matchups, ya know. A guy I know at our tournament a few weeks ago was using White Stax, ended up going 1-3 that week. I wasn't using stax that week, was a different deck, but several times before I'd be 0-2 playing good decks like Ichorid, Countertop, etc. and I'm like how did they lose? lol tough competition

[FieryBalrog]

Why does Dystopia really matter vs. White Stax? Its not like Ghostly Prison or Magus of the Tabernacle are really important in this matchup.

Stax mirrors are all about Crucible of Worlds and keeping land advantage. In this respect White Stax has two huge advantages in the mirror- Flagstones of Trokair and Armageddon. Leyline of the Void is a really good card in this matchup though, for just this reason.

However, its not like the matchup vs. other Stax decks is a major concern. It doesn't matter who wins more in a Black vs White Stax matchup; its the matchup vs the rest of the field that is everything.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Wasn't so much thinking that, but more protection from Oblivion Ring/Sacred Ground and/or Magus.


You're right though, mostly about the other matchups, but someone brought up Stax vs Stax so had to add my 2 cents ;)

[yougo]

Why it seems like everybody drop the contamination it seems to me that its a stapler to the deck

and if aggro is causing so much trouble then run damnation no?? we have the chance of having the same mass removal as for white , why dont we use it?

ok ive tested this new list here it has a couple of change here we go

mana 26

8 swamp
2 urborg
4 mishras factory
4 mox diamond
4 city of trator
4 ancient tomb

creature 3

3 nether spirit

stack 21

4 3sphere
4 chalice
4 smokestack
3 contamination
3 ensnaring bridge
3 the abyss

producer 7

3 bitter blossom
4 crucible of world

mass removal 3

3 damnation




ive you think about death match ? seems like a funny cards with the spirit and bitter blossom well maybe just funny

for me i dont like that much braids she cost 2 black and at the end she is just a creature that can be remove by any means and running braids means to forget about the spirit i think the goal to release the true power of this deck is eslwhere we must test and find new card

[Sevryn]

I've been toying with a black stax build that moves CotV to the sideboard, allowing Dark Ritual to be played in the MD, just because it provides an effect that really only black can provide. This has opened up the need for one-drops aside from Ritual, and I bumped into this little gem: Executioner's Capsule (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174895). It's a one-drop that can kill anything that isn't Tombstalker or Dark Confidant, and it also increases permanent density to improve top-decking once you have a Smokestack online.

[Steveman]

I've been toying with a black stax build that moves CotV to the sideboard, allowing Dark Ritual to be played in the MD, just because it provides an effect that really only black can provide. This has opened up the need for one-drops aside from Ritual, and I bumped into this little gem: Executioner's Capsule (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=174895). It's a one-drop that can kill anything that isn't Tombstalker or Dark Confidant, and it also increases permanent density to improve top-decking once you have a Smokestack online.

Dark Ritual is horrible in any Stax shell because it's not a permanent: We already have Mox Diamond / Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors, why should we sacrifice a key lock piece for a crappy mana accelerant?

[yougo]

i totaly agree with steveman

first dark ritual is not a permanent, it has a more than bad synergy with trinisphere and we already have mox diamond as a ugly top deck in the late game 8 card would be horrible

and beside why would we want to remove chalice this is by far one of the best card of the deck

[Steveman]

Aight, so some more testing revealed something very important to me: Braids isn't very good. This is gonna be the next version I'm going to test.

Braidless Stax
26 LAND
X10 Swamp
X4 Ancient Tomb
X4 Wasteland
X3 Mishra’s Factory
X3 City of Traitors
X2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

34 Spells
X4 Mox Diamond
X4 Trinisphere
X4 Chalice of the Void
X4 Crucible of Worlds
X4 Damnation
X4 Smokestack
X3 Contamination
X3 Nether Spirit
X3 The Abyss
X1 Bitterblossom

15 Sideboard
X4 Leyline of the Void
X3 Engineered Explosives
X3 Pithing Needle
X3 Ensnaring Bridge
X2 Powder Keg


I'm swapping out Silent Arbiter for Nether Spirit. While I really like The Abyss + Silent Arbiter combo, being able to ramp Smokestack to 2 and sustaining my board is crucial, especially since we don't have Armageddon. The only problem is that I don't want to play 4 Nether Spirit and I'm not too big on the Bitterblossom idea because I'm pretty sure it's gonna kill me more times than I'd like it to, but seeing how the next best creatureless option is probably Nuisance Engine, I don't think I have much of a choice (unless somebody else comes up with some better idea).

[yougo]

yeah iknow me too i found out that braids was more of a nuisance than something else

but i dont agree with your point of view with bitter blossom at firt i was running 4 of those i did drop to 3 thought but still the blossom is really a key card here its a kill condition and a permanent generator were talking about 1 life per turn its not much but of course were indeed talking about a lot and a lot of turn before winnig right but still cutting bitter blossom seems to me an error. how many time did i win just by having the abyss and a spirit online and then oups bitter blossom or having 2 bitter blossom by turn 2 is like giving control their worst fear nightmare

if aggro is the main problem then we should side espacially for them but not removing key element to the md just cause there some aggro deck out there
im thinking a side board that can look like this

4 Engineered Plague
4 stuffy doll
1 damnation
1 abyss
2 dystopia
3 perish

i have to say than im not a big fan of dystopia but still... but what about stuffy doll k grip proof as well as pridemage proof and cause them to dont want to attack actually this card made me win game by itself when i was playing imperial painter worth trying i guess

[FoulQ]

I can't take it.

"Yeah, I know. I also found out that braids was more of a nuisance than anything else.

But I don't agree with your point of view with bitterblossom. At first, I was running 4 of them, though I did drop to 3. Still, bitterblossom is a really key card in this deck; it's a kill condition and a permanent generator. We're talking about 1 life per turn; it's not much. (wtf gibberish?!) Cutting bitterblossom to me seems like an error. I have won many times off having an abyss or spirit online and then casting bitterblossom, or having 2 bitterblossom by turn 2 (a control deck's worst nightmare).

If aggro is the main problem, then we should side especially for them, but we should not remove key elements to the maindeck just because there is a large aggro presence. I'm thinking a sideboard that can look like this:

4 Engineered Plague
4 Stuffy Doll
1 Damnation
1 The Abyss
2 Dystopia
3 Perish

I have to say that I'm not a big fan of dystopia, but still...(still what?!). What about stuffy doll? It can't be hit by krosan grip or pridemage, and it discourages them from attacking. Actually, stuffy doll made me win a game by itself when I was playing imperial painter. Worth trying I guess."

[Malakai]

yeah iknow me too i found out that braids was more of a nuisance than something else

but i dont agree with your point of view with bitter blossom at firt i was running 4 of those i did drop to 3 thought but still the blossom is really a key card here its a kill condition and a permanent generator were talking about 1 life per turn its not much but of course were indeed talking about a lot and a lot of turn before winnig right but still cutting bitter blossom seems to me an error. how many time did i win just by having the abyss and a spirit online and then oups bitter blossom or having 2 bitter blossom by turn 2 is like giving control their worst fear nightmare

if aggro is the main problem then we should side espacially for them but not removing key element to the md just cause there some aggro deck out there
im thinking a side board that can look like this

4 Engineered Plague
4 stuffy doll
1 damnation
1 abyss
2 dystopia
3 perish

i have to say than im not a big fan of dystopia but still... but what about stuffy doll k grip proof as well as pridemage proof and cause them to dont want to attack actually this card made me win game by itself when i was playing imperial painter worth trying i guess

This post is incoherent. I think someone may have mentioned that already, but their post wasn't any more clear or useful. Let's try for proper capitalization and sentence structure, and go from there. I literally have no idea what points you're trying to get across. It doesn't really matter though, as your recommendation is for Stuffy Doll. Besides being random jank, it's laughably inferior to Silent Arbiter.

If the aggro problem cannot be solved between some combination of black's best tools--Damnation, Silent Arbiter, The Abyss, Bitterblossom, EE/Keg, Nether Spirit, Ensnaring Bridge, and the standard Stax lock pieces--then this entire deck idea should be shelved until something new is printed for it.

Let me break this down for you people:
-Stuffy Doll is terrible.
-Recommending Dark Ritual means you should never post about or play any version of Stax again, ever.
-Damnation should be a 4-of.
-If you play Diabolic Edict in the maindeck your opponent is going to laugh at you then beat you, because decks with Gaddock Teeg play lots of creatures.
-The Abyss and/or Nether Void, and possibly Braids, are the reason to play black Stax. With Trinisphere, Nether Void makes everything except Vexing Shusher cost 6 mana.

The two things that need to be figured out right now:
1. Do you play Contamination, and if so how do you enable it?
2. How many of The Abyss and how many Nether Void?

[Malakai]

Also: Helm Combo is absolutely terrible. 6-8 cards that don't do anything seems like a terrible plan.

[Illissius]

You do need some way to win games with The Abyss out. Maybe you can overcome the dissynergy with Spirit/Blossom through brute force by just getting multiples, which I hadn't really considered, it doesn't seem exactly optimal but maybe it works.

Other options are Sorin, Helm combo, Factories, and Random Artifact Creature (Karn, Steel Golem/Grid Monitor, maybe even Solemn Simulacrum, etc.).

[Steveman]

You do need some way to win games with The Abyss out. Maybe you can overcome the dissynergy with Spirit/Blossom through brute force by just getting multiples, which I hadn't really considered, it doesn't seem exactly optimal but maybe it works.

Other options are Sorin, Helm combo, Factories, and Random Artifact Creature (Karn, Steel Golem/Grid Monitor, maybe even Solemn Simulacrum, etc.).

Pretty much every list has Factories in them, and quite frankly, they're the only viable option if you're playing with Nether Spirit.


Also: Helm Combo is absolutely terrible. 6-8 cards that don't do anything seems like a terrible plan.

Leyline of the Void leaves Tarmogoyf with one ball hanging

[Darkenslight]

Would Tombstalker be viable as an alternate finisher? It's fat, has evasion and Im' fairly sure it can be played around with Stack et al.

[eq.firemind]

How about Phyrexian Totem? It gives :b: mana when you're gaining control and it beats for 5 when you have board position.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Totem seems like a good idea.

I may have to possibly alter my deck list, 'cause then it seems best to drop out Ensnaring Bridge and just straight up run Damnation for a board sweep. :smile:

It I ran something like...
4 Damnation
4 Phyrexian Totem

...should I run
1 Sorin

? :confused:

[eq.firemind]

...should I run
1 Sorin
At least you should try.

Some other cads that could fit:
Tomb of Urami: you have Crucible to recover and Urborg, ToYawg to neglect pain, but the card is a little clumsy anyway.
Beseech the Queen: IMHO this one is better 'cause it improves the deck's consistency and that is just what you need.
Cranial Extraction: looks good in sideboard.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I'm not saying that I'd run either, hopefully the deck would have enough consistency that I won't need to give them timewalk to tutor for a card. But Diabolic Tutor almost seems better than Beseech the Queen just in this deck... say I'm running totem and mox, I might possibly only have 2-3 lands when I want to use it. Sorin wouldn't be tutorable :\

---
It might be worth trying Tomb of Urami... don't see why not at this point lol. Running so many nonbasics might as well f* it and try it all

Cranial Extraction could be pretty mean, what sorta matchups would you use that in might I ask? What cards do you usually go after?

[yougo]

totem seems nice to me and deserve testing

markov look nice but i think he might be overkill tought

im gonna try a new build wich will be a bit more stompy orianted ill give some news

btw i dont like silent arbiter he can be kill by any removall and then screw your spirit wich is not good

[eq.firemind]

I'm not saying that I'd run either, hopefully the deck would have enough consistency that I won't need to give them timewalk to tutor for a card. But Diabolic Tutor almost seems better than Beseech the Queen just in this deck... say I'm running totem and mox, I might possibly only have 2-3 lands when I want to use it. Sorin wouldn't be tutorable :\
Right you are. Beseech is not good here...


Cranial Extraction could be pretty mean, what sorta matchups would you use that in might I ask? What cards do you usually go after?
You usually can cast Cranial Extraction on your turn 2. Naming Krosan Grip in first 2-3 turns in game 2-3 will most likely save you from troubles. Also, Pernicious Deed, Elspeth, Life from the Loam and other shit that usually hurts StaX's gameplan. And ofcourse Dredge/Storm parts, but you should have good game against them anyway...

[Malakai]

totem seems nice to me and deserve testing

markov look nice but i think he might be overkill tought

im gonna try a new build wich will be a bit more stompy orianted ill give some news

btw i dont like silent arbiter he can be kill by any removall and then screw your spirit wich is not good
You obviously don't play them both...


Phyrexian Totem is great, until you stop thinking in a vacuum and realize that things won't always be going your way. You need cards that swing the game your way, not a finisher that is absolutely useless if anything is still around. You are going to feel pretty silly the first time you have a totem on the board and a 6/7 Tarmogoyf is beating your face in.

And stop with the talk of Diabolic Tutor or Beseech the Queen. Legacy is a format too fast for Gifts Ungiven, let alone that jank.

I think you will lose from Wasteland on Tomb of Urami more than you will win from making a Urami token.

Damnation is good. Keep in mind that most decks' plans against any version of Stax is to race them.

[Illissius]

Phyrexian Totem is great, until you stop thinking in a vacuum and realize that things won't always be going your way. You need cards that swing the game your way, not a finisher that is absolutely useless if anything is still around. You are going to feel pretty silly the first time you have a totem on the board and a 6/7 Tarmogoyf is beating your face in.

Again, if you have better ideas for winning the game under The Abyss we're glad to hear them. Totem does at least make mana. I wouldn't play four, but as a two-of or so just so you have some way to actually kill your opponent once you've locked them it seems fine. Or, I guess, you could rely entirely on Factories.

[Steveman]

Again, if you have better ideas for winning the game under The Abyss we're glad to hear them. Totem does at least make mana. I wouldn't play four, but as a two-of or so just so you have some way to actually kill your opponent once you've locked them it seems fine. Or, I guess, you could rely entirely on Factories.

The thing is, if you're winning with Phyrexian Totem, that probably means

a.) You have the hardlock

b.) You're going to win anyways

If you're not in one of those two positions, using Phyrexian Totem is too great of a risk.

[Malakai]

Again, if you have better ideas for winning the game under The Abyss we're glad to hear them. Totem does at least make mana. I wouldn't play four, but as a two-of or so just so you have some way to actually kill your opponent once you've locked them it seems fine. Or, I guess, you could rely entirely on Factories.

The notion that a better idea is required in order for your idea to be bad is false.

However, there is a better idea. Play more lock pieces. It doesn't matter what your kill condition is, as there's no way your opponent is going to come back from a Smokestack-Chalice/3sphere hardlock.

[Illissius]

The notion that a better idea is required in order for your idea to be bad is false.

The notion that if all of the ideas are bad we can just not have a kill mechanism is false.

Anyway, consensus seems to be "just kill them with Factories". Fine by me.

[Malakai]

The notion that if all of the ideas are bad we can just not have a kill mechanism is false.
Alright, just assume that the default better idea is to just play a different deck.

[Mystical_Jackass]

chill Malakai, we were just lightly throwing around some ideas, and I already asserted I probably wouldn't use Tutors, but if I did Diabolic may be the better that was all.

I just about have all the cards to test out my new deck, I'ma try the standard Stax shell with 3 Braids and Totem/Damnation route. Just to try it out, if it friggin sucks it sucks, moving on lol.

The thing I'm looking forward to the most is the new mana base :smile: . Since I'm shooting for 3 Urborg I wanna see how well Maze of Ith works 'cause that is a pretty unique part of BLACK having the ability to fix mana while running dirty cards like Maze


The thing is, if you're winning with Phyrexian Totem, that probably means

a.) You have the hardlock

b.) You're going to win anyways

If you're not in one of those two positions, using Phyrexian Totem is too great of a risk.

mmm... we'll see. But I don't know if it's always gonna be as black & white as that. Chalice and Trini can protect it from burn to a degree (if they use burn that is), but mainly what I'm thinking is... you have an opening one turn, you swing through. Or you sweep the board and swing through. He was just a versatile idea that could be a good source of accel early game that gets around Damnation, which can always turn into a beater when you get an opening. Maze of Ith could be used to save him... maybe protect him from random blockers, pump ups (shade?), vial'ing in creatures, etc. Only thing I'm worried about is card draw but maybe if my spells are powerful enough I'll generate enough card advantage from simply playing faster while locking them :) I'm still not convinced about Sorin, but if he's randomly good... well, I want full credit for the idea damnit jk

[Galroth]

So I'm not Stax player, but between Bloodghast and now Abyssal Persecutor, I'd speculate Black Stax rapes face (metaphorically).

I'd like to see a prospective list from anyone with some experience.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Heh, I was thinking the same thing, I was like SWAEEET when I saw the new spoils :laugh: Haven't had the chance to play recently, keep missing weeks... stupid work, trying always trying to hold me back in life Lol.

Last time, went a fair 2-2 at the tourney. Had to forfeit after making an illegal play against Gobs, 'cause I'm an idiot and horrible pilot lol, but the deck is pretty solid. Gotten a few people give props to the deck, I'm glad to know it has good potential. It keeps looking better and better, especially from what I've seen so far...

So far we got...

Anowon, the Ruin Sage :3: :b: :b:
Legendary Creature - Vampire Shaman
At the beginning of your upkeep, each player sacrifices a non-Vampire creature.

Abyssal Persecutor :2: :b: :b:
Creature - Demon
Flying, trample
You can't win the game and your opponents can't lose the game.


Wow. What can I say. We got one card that fits perfectly in with the curve that basically says "I can't die", that is till you sacrafice to Stax... I'll have to ponder of that, find a way to break it. Another card that is basically a one-sided Abyss on a stick. Not bad. It's looking better and better, keep it up WWK @.@

[Steveman]

Eh, while those 2 cards sure are an eye-opener, I don't think they're going to make the cut and / or improve an optimized Black Stax deck.

Let's look at the cards one by one

Anowon, the Ruin Sage 3BB
Legendary Creature - Vampire Shaman
At the beginning of your upkeep, each player sacrifices a non-Vampire creature.

4/3

This ain't too bad of a card. When asking ourselves "do we want to run this," we first have to ask ourselves the following question: "Do I play Braids?" If the answer is yes, then we have to ask ourselves "Would I run this along side with Braids or replace Braids all together?"

Some things we should note

- Both cards die to two extremely common spot removal cards: StP and Lightning Bolt

- Both cards are Legendary

- Braids is cheaper and goes to work right away

- Anowon has twice the power Braids does

- Anowon is one-sided but is more expensive and takes a turn to do anything

- Anowon only makes your opponent sac creatures while Braids makes them sac pretty much anything but Enchantments / Planeswalkers.


I think it's pretty clear that Braids > Anowon: a 4/3 creature one-sided slower version of the Abyss that has no evasion / self-protection is not what Black Stax is looking for. I would not replace Braids with this, but then again, my list doesn't even play Braids so Anowon = worthless in my eyes.


Abyssal Persecutor, however, may have some potential because we have plenty of ways to get rid of him, making his "drawback" pretty negligible. My only strike against him is that he isn't too good under The Abyss, which in my opinion, is the best card Black Stax has to offer. If you're not playing The Abyss for whatever reason, Abyssal Persecutor might just be the ideal kill condition for your deck.

[Jim Higginbottom]

herro,

leyline of the void + helm of obedience.

bye now!

[Steveman]

So here's the new(er) list I'm testing right now

Braidless Stax
26 LAND
X10 Swamp
X4 Ancient Tomb
X4 Wasteland
X3 Mishra’s Factory
X3 City of Traitors
X2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

34 Spells
X4 Mox Diamond
X4 Trinisphere
X4 Chalice of the Void
X4 Crucible of Worlds
X4 Damnation
X4 Smokestack
X4 The Abyss
X3 Nether Spirit
X3 Smother

15 Sideboard
X4 Cranial Extraction
X3 Engineered Explosives
X3 Pithing Needle
X3 Nether Void
X2 Dystopia

Explanations on card choices that aren't self-explainatory

MAINDECK

- The Abyss: I upped the count from 2 to 4 because they're friggin amazing. Screw the World Enchantment rule, you want to play 4 so you see them every game, have an extra one in case the first one gets Forced / Dazed, and have the 3rd one just to rub it in your opponent's face

- Nether Spirit: I really wanted to push for Silent Arbiter because The Abyss + Arbiter is a pretty nifty combo, but Nether Spirit allows me to ramp Smokestack without penalty, and ramping Smokestack is key in Black Stax because we don't have access to Armageddon

- Smother: I decided to dedicate my last 3 maindeck slots over Engineered Explosives because of its versatility against creatures. Let's face it, there's only a handful of creatures this little gem CAN'T kill. EE is cool, but we only have 4 Mox Diamond to ramp it to 2, so I'd much rather just settle for the hassle-free yet very useful card that is Smother.

I'm still tweaking with the sideboard. I know a lot of people are gonna flame me for not having Leylines, but I don't think that I need it honestly (I never use graveyard hate in White Stax). However, that's probably because I have Moats / Humility, which deals with whatever tricks any graveyard based strategies are brewing up. My concern is the rising popularity of 43 Lands / Enchantress, which EE and Dystopia are key because they're the only cards (besides Nev's Disc) that I can think of can kill Enchantments that Black has access to.

I'll do some more testing later this month and give you guys an update later

[Steveman]

Hexmage Depths combo takes up too many slots and both are horrible cards by themselves.

[Sims]

Just one suggestion that I've learned the hard way by losing to my Buddy/Teammate who plays a home brewed Black Stax list that's a tad different from most posted here:

You win games while Abyss is out with Mishra's Factory and Razormane Masticore.

That is all.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Just one suggestion that I've learned the hard way by losing to my Buddy/Teammate who plays a home brewed Black Stax list that's a tad different from most posted here:

You win games while Abyss is out with Mishra's Factory and Razormane Masticore.

That is all.


Depends on the deck. If they're nothing but creatures they can't win, but if they have any removal of the sort you'd be surprised how some decks will bounce back. The 5cc and waiting a turn to be useful shys me away from Razormane, but the new Golem in WWK looks pretty awesome. I'm liking Phyrexian Totem atm, it's multifunctional and plays around Nether Void and Humility like factory's "bigger brother" ;P

[Odysseus]

see, the problem with the abyss vs magus, is that magus has a power of 2 and an ass of 6. meaning he also serves as a great blocker. where as the abyss, just like pendrell mists, is only an enchantment. the problem I had with W/U stax, was that I couldnt always stop attackers fast enough.

[Sims]

Depends on the deck. If they're nothing but creatures they can't win, but if they have any removal of the sort you'd be surprised how some decks will bounce back. The 5cc and waiting a turn to be useful shys me away from Razormane, but the new Golem in WWK looks pretty awesome. I'm liking Phyrexian Totem atm, it's multifunctional and plays around Nether Void and Humility like factory's "bigger brother" ;P

Well the catch here is that he doesn't run Contamination lock like most of the lists here, so there's no poor interaction with nether spirit. Razormane doesn't really "wait a turn," if they have 2 creatures and you have Abyss and land Razormane, they lose 1 creature and then are swinging into a 5/5 first striker. The bolt during the draw step is gravy to help pick off smaller (i.e, not goyf) creatures to force them to target their larger beasts with Abyss triggers. Even without Abyss on the table, razormane (combined with chalice at 1 to protect it) can decimate zoo's board position and most other aggro decks.
It's a 5/5 on the offense, and a beast on defense. 5 colorless mana isn't too difficult to achieve, the only real drawback is running yourself out of a hand and not being able to pay upkeep. Otherwise, he's one of the better choices of win conditions combined with Abyss.

[Steveman]

I don't think Razormane Masticore should be considered as an optimal kill condition, he's too pricey and requires pitching a card every turn.

Try my list out if you're having problems with aggro: Damnation sweeps the board, The Abyss keeps things off the board, Smother kills most creatures for a cheap cost, and Nether Spirit / Mishra's Factory block all day.

I seriously stress the importance of Nether Spirit because ramping Smokestack to 2 is KEY to taking out your opponent's lands before they bounce back or kill you before you can clear their board.

[Illissius]

People at some point mentioned Phyrexian Arena; doesn't that also work for ramping Smokestack? It's somewhat less reliable, but usually you will get to draw and play two permanents each turn. (Of course, this works less well if you have nonpermanent cards like Damnation in the deck.)

[Steveman]

People at some point mentioned Phyrexian Arena; doesn't that also work for ramping Smokestack? It's somewhat less reliable, but usually you will get to draw and play two permanents each turn. (Of course, this works less well if you have nonpermanent cards like Damnation in the deck.)

While the card draw is nice, the life loss is pretty steep when you Ancient Tomb damage on top of that. We have no way to recuperate our life loss and we don't have fast enough win conditions to win before we end up killing ourselves.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Before I switched to my current list with Braids, I ran 2x Nether Spirit, 2x Phyrexian Arena. Running Wastes, Factory, Ancient Tomb, City, etc. you end up having a lot of colorless mana. I hated having to cast 2BB burning with tombs, to play a 3cc.

The difference between then and now is that I switched to a more aggressive build. My deck accelerates faster off the line locking them out from playing their spells, which generates its own CA. Black Stax can make those Trinisphere/Chalice->Braids-> Crucible turn3/4 wins that other stax can't, which is what makes it dangerous.

[Steveman]

Before I switched to my current list with Braids, I ran 2x Nether Spirit, 2x Phyrexian Arena. Running Wastes, Factory, Ancient Tomb, City, etc. you end up having a lot of colorless mana. I hated having to cast 2BB burning with tombs, to play a 3cc.

The difference between then and now is that I switched to a more aggressive build. My deck accelerates faster off the line locking them out from playing their spells, which generates its own CA. Black Stax can make those Trinisphere/Chalice->Braids-> Crucible turn3/4 wins that other stax can't, which is what makes it dangerous.

Some things to point out

- Mana burn no longer exists, so 2BB with tombs to play a 3cc = no problem. In fact, having 2BB for a 3cc spell = good because now your opponent can't Daze you.

- Why would you ever run Braids with Nether Spirit?

- Trinisphere / Chalice - > Braids - > Crucible can be done with any Stax deck, just replace Braids with Smokestack. Sure it takes a turn for Smokestack to go online, but Smokestack doesn't die to everything like Braids does.

Regarding Braids: I don't think that she should be played in any build that you'd want to "optimize" because she's a fragile lock piece that dies to everything. The beauty of Stax is that they have bombs that are difficult to answer outside of countermagic (game 1) because most people don't pack enchantment / artifact removal in the maindeck. Braids is a 2/2 creature with no protection / recursion and dies to the most common removal spells in the format. Since Stax plays very few creatures, your opponent's removal cards are just gonna sit in their hand because they're useless. However, the second you play Braids, it's almost guaranteed to have a removal spell with its name on it. Chalice / Trinisphere aren't enough to protect Braids.

[Sevryn]

Cards I've been looking at:

-Necroplasm: recurring weenie control that doesn't hit Braids or Tombstalker (if you run either).
-Desolation: punishes both players for casting spells, pretty bad unless you have Crucible out.
-Smallpox: hits a creature, a land, and a card in hand; you probably sac a land and discard another land.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Some things to point out

- Mana burn no longer exists, so 2BB with tombs to play a 3cc = no problem. In fact, having 2BB for a 3cc spell = good because now your opponent can't Daze you.

I'm aware of that. I see your point it does have its merits with that.


- Why would you ever run Braids with Nether Spirit?

No, which is why I didn't.


- Trinisphere / Chalice - > Braids - > Crucible can be done with any Stax deck, just replace Braids with Smokestack. Sure it takes a turn for Smokestack to go online, but Smokestack doesn't die to everything like Braids does.

Any Stax can't run Braids though :wink:

I think you underestimate her. You accellerate faster than your opponent, you can drop a chalice/trini to protect yourself and follow that up with a Braids before they hit 3 lands. Yes, she CAN be more vulnerable which is why you protect her with chalice/trini... The downside of smokestack on the other hand, is that it's A) slower and B) you can't win with it just on your own. Braids with a Crucible and 3sphere/chalice = autowin, there's nothing opponent can do whereas stax gives them more time to play lands and setup and requires a factory or another source to do the damage, it sounds very miniscule but it's a huge difference man. She also can come into play, make them sac a perm, and block a creature to buy you time.

[kinda]

How about this...

4 wasteland
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
4 mishra's factory
2 urborg
9 swamp

2 braids, cabal minion

4 smokestack
4 bitterblossom
4 crucible of worlds
4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere
4 mox diamond
3 phyrexian arena
4 damnation
3 umezawa's jitte

[LOurs]

Isnt Deathcloud a decent add to this deck ?? Maybe 1/2 in the deck.
Sure it is pretty slow and pricey. But it also destroys hand + lands + creatures + life and it seems good with mana artifact, crucible and stack effects ...