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nitewolf9
11-29-2009, 03:28 PM
So the story behind this deck starts when Dave Gearhart doesn't want to go to the SCG 1k in Roanoke because he doesn't have a deck to play. I really wanted to try to build something that smashed aggro and yet wasn't completely dead to combo and control, so I thought of a deck Chris Woltereck had played way back when that included sets of Dark Confidant, Descendant of Kiyamaro, and Jotun Grunt, plus 8 hymn effects. I wrote up a list that included aether vial, which was scrapped as there are only 16 creatures in the deck, and Tarmogoyf instead of Grunt. Vampire Nighthawk also had a lot of promise, and Dave wanted to play something that "drew alot of cards". With Confidant and lifelink creatures + Sylvan Library/Skeletal Scrying there is a lot of drawing power here. Combine that with 8 Hymn effects and you have a solid way to stay ahead of your opponent on cards.
We put the deck together and Dave plays it at the 1k, making 2nd. He named the deck "Senor Weenie", as my last name is Signorini and sometimes people say it that way in jest. Here is the current list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Descendant of Kiyomaro

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sylvan Library
2 Skeletal Scrying
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

Board:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Path to Exile
3 Choke
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus

Dave played 2 Maelstrom Pulses that he was not very impressed with, and only 20 lands. The lone Savannah was not there originally and should help fix
the manabase.

The Merfolk matchup is quite stellar, and Zoo, although not thoroughly tested, also has problems with so much discard and lifegain. Your plan against aggro in general is to run them out of cards and stay ahead in the life total race. Descendant is obviously quite a beating against aggressive strategies.

Counter/top is much more dicey, although you do have a few powerful lines of play there. A full set of Grips and 3 Chokes in the board try to alleviate the disparity here. Slower control strategies like Landstill have not really been tested, but with so many avenues of card advantage and the back breaker that is Sylvan Library it shouldn't be all that bad.

Storm combo is not the best matchup, especially the faster variations, but is winnable with the right hand. The board could potentially be built to beat these decks, but the extra removal and yard hate is probably more useful overall. That is until everyone starts playing belcher or TES. Engineered Explosives over Path's in the board is one possible configuration that would help against Belcher and Ichorid, and possibly keep the Ad Nauseum decks from slow rolling you through your discard by dropping artifact mana. That is much more of a stretch though.

I'll update this post with more testing data as we get it. Let me know what you guys think and if there are any glaringly obvious card choices we may have overlooked. If you find yourself facing a lot of Zoo and Merfolk this is a pretty strong choice.

Edit: Doran might be much better in the main over Jitte, moving them to the board.

Nessaja
11-29-2009, 03:52 PM
Def a deck that would benefit from Doran, but would it still be Weenie with that big tree?

Hows the matchup against Goblins? As it's much more CA geared (compared to Zoo). And what about Canadian Thresh? It seems like it could prey on your mana base quite easily.

freakish777
11-29-2009, 03:56 PM
Edit: Doran might be much better in the main over Jitte, moving them to the board.

Doran seems like the right call, as you said you already have a decent match against Aggro (where Jitte is better, but Doran is still good), so it makes sense to have another must answer threat against Control decks (that generally don't care about Jitte, since they're just killing all your guys anyways if they can manage it), and also better against CounterTop decks (another 3cc spell to get through CBalance).

EDIT: It seems like I'd want to try and jam a 1 of Vindicate into this deck (with the amount of card drawing you have ok chances of drawing it) just as an answer to whatever your opponent resolves that makes you go ".... really? .... "

FieryBalrog
11-29-2009, 04:08 PM
Really cool deck. Any deck that can use Descendant of Kiyomaro is automatically awesome. Is Knight of Meadowgrain too small to use? Well I'll answer my own question and say yes since Zoo doesn't play anything that has an ass less than 3 unless its not attacking (Lavamancer).

Hm.

Yea, Doran seems a nice fit, and makes all your guys better except Confidant.

Why do you need 8 swords if the deck is already beating up aggro? It seems like overkill.

Illissius
11-29-2009, 04:10 PM
I really wanted to try to build something that smashed aggro and yet wasn't completely dead to combo and control

Supreme Blue?

keys
11-29-2009, 04:43 PM
Seems more like a variation on The Rock than a new archetype, but I like the innovations.

FieryBalrog
11-29-2009, 05:47 PM
Seems more like a variation on The Rock than a new archetype, but I like the innovations.

Doesn't seem much like the Rock at all. This deck actually has a pretty focused plan- beat up on aggro with life-gain, backed up with card draw and discard.

DukeDemonKn1ght
11-29-2009, 06:31 PM
Dude, finally- a deck that breaks Descendant! This looks pretty freaking cool.

How has Skeletal Scrying been working out for y'all though? It seems a little strange, since I imagine it would usually draw you around two cards, which basically makes it Night's Whisper, except more dissynergous with Goyf. Between Bob, Sylvan Library, and Scrying, I'd imagine the card drawing is pretty plentiful, but Scrying still seems sorta odd.

I agree that Jitte should maybe become Doran. Other critts that might bear consideration are Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary, maybe even Tombstalker as like a sideboard option or something.

jimirynk
11-29-2009, 06:32 PM
how was Descendant of Kiyomaro throughout the day?

freakish777
11-29-2009, 06:37 PM
The more I think about it, the more I think you want a 3rd Doran. As stated he's still good against aggro decks, provides a legitimate must answer threat for control decks and an actual clock against combo decks (Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 Hymn/Verdict, Turn 3 Doran seems like it gives you a fighting chance as opposed to playing Nighthawk or Descendant on turn 3 instead).

Perhaps cut a Sylvan Library for the 3rd Doran? You already have 4 Confidant and 2 Skeletal Scrying (obviously you really only want to resolve 1 Library), it seems that having 8 "draw" spells should be sufficient.

Tacosnape
11-29-2009, 07:33 PM
Is Descendant a certainty to be better than Kitchen Finks?

Deep6er
11-29-2009, 08:57 PM
After testing today, I've realized a couple of things.

1. Thoughtseize is terrible. At the tournament, it was only good against the double Standstill draw against Merfolk. Every other time I drew it, I was dissatisfied. Plus, it sucks against Zoo (unless you hit Tarmogoyf or Sylvan Library).

2. The deck needs to speed up. Neither Doran nor Vindicate do that. In fact, they're both slow as balls. After a short consultation with Dan, I tried out Chrome Mox and saw some (but not too much) improvement with that.

3. Descendant of Kiyomaro is phenomenal against Merfolk, but significantly less stellar against Zoo because of Sylvan Library. Plus, with the amount of removal Zoo plays, it's difficult to get a creature to stick. Dark Confidant is a completely dead draw in that match, and that makes it hard to keep up cards against them.

4. Maelstrom Pulse is awful. It's too slow, and can't wipe multiple creatures. Plus, it's not even guaranteed to resolve through a Counterbalance (as opposed to something like Engineered Explosives).

Here's the list that I ended up using after testing:

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Sylvan Library
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Descendant of Kiyomaro
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Skeletal Scrying

3 Chrome Mox

4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

I started with the original list against Zoo. I got 0-5'd. After that, I decided that there needed to be some changes. Not only did I want a couple of more mana sources, but I also needed to speed up my deck in order to fight them more effectively.

At first, I tried more removal (in Path to Exile), but I still couldn't keep up with them in cards because Dark Confidant was a blank, and Skeletal Scrying required a lot of mana (like four), in order to get me back in the game. Plus, every turn I spent making them discard, was another turn that they attacked for free. But if I didn't make them discard and instead used the turn to make a guy to block, they'd either vomit more guys on the table or remove my guy and get a swing in anyway.

Explosives is very solid against Zoo, and it helps against Counter/Top as well. Having more draw effects means that when I stabilize, I can keep the upper hand. It's imperative that you have enough draw effects to make sure Descendant stays good. A 2/3 for three that doesn't do anything is awful. The fact that he requires as much upkeep as he does makes him suspect as it is. It's likely that he may not remain a four of.

The tournament that I played this at wasn't really huge enough for me to make a full blown tournament report thread, so I'll just sum up here:

Round 1: Daniel S. playing Merfolk (eventually top 8'd)
Game 1: Double Thoughtseize on the play takes both Standstills. We fight for awhile, but the fact that he has no removal makes it shaky as all hell for him. Plus, since I have no Islands, he doesn't have any evasion and my Tarmogoyfs/Descendants eat him. I end the game at twenty-three to his one.

Game 2: Similar, but there are Jitte shenanigans.

Round 2: Burn
Game 1: I play lifelink guys. Also, lots of discard. This is legitimately the worst match up in the entire tournament for him.
Game 2: See game one but with a Pyrostatic Pillar and Sulfuric Vortex making things a lot closer.

Round 3: Dave Price playing New Horizons
We talk about drawing but play it out.
Game 1: He blows me out with Wasteland.
Game 2: I board in nine cards. I destroy him with all of my Swords effects.
After game 2, I decide to draw.

Round 4: guy with B/G aggro
Game 1: Mulligan to five and Ritualed Hippy on the first turn. Seems good.
Game 2: A bunch of Swords effects and Tarmogoyf end him.
Game 3: Same as game two.

Round 5: Kevin Kehoe playing Belcher
We draw.

Top 8 splits.

The deck was good to me and I got some really good match ups. Merfolk is a cakewalk with this deck. Burn is a complete joke.

I like the deck, but Zoo and possibly Counter/Top are match ups that need to be investigated. It's possible that Counter/Top can be answered with Grip/Choke in the board, and having the Paths in the board for Zoo might make it viable with the changes in the main. It's a bit closer to even pre-board with what I was playing (probably sixty/forty their favor in game one). So it will still be difficult. Especially since they could board Swords to make life even more difficult post-board.

jimirynk
11-29-2009, 09:25 PM
Needs more extirpate.:cool:

Illissius
11-29-2009, 09:38 PM
If your goal was to build a deck which crushes aggro while not sucking against combo and control, and you came up with a deck which got raped by Zoo and was also not so great against combo, and then you changed it to be somewhat less bad against Zoo but even worse against combo, then it doesn't sound like you've succeeded at your goal.

also,

Rhox War Monk: Like Descendant of Kiyomaro, minus the hassle.

KillemallCFH
11-29-2009, 09:40 PM
I've been messing around with lists pretty similar to this lately, though this looks a lot better than anything I came up with. I came to a similar conclusion regarding Thoughtseize, though I've still kept it as a 3-of because Standstill (and Goblin Ringleader) was proving to be an enormous problem, but I wasn't running as much CA as you.

Nighthawk is pretty awesome. If he didn't eat bolt, he'd be completely nuts, but he's still quite a beating against... pretty much everything.

I've been running at least one Stronghold in most the lists I've been trying, and I've been pretty satisfied with it. Ever test it out as a 1-of?


Is Descendant a certainty to be better than Kitchen Finks?I'm interested in this as well. Both have obvious strengths and weaknesses, and Descendant seems incredibly underwhelming if your CA plan gets foiled.

sauce
11-30-2009, 11:01 AM
isnt dark ritual better than chrome mox here? you get to turn1 hymn/nighthawk..

Capitalization is required on this site. Use it. -zilla

Aggro_zombies
11-30-2009, 04:07 PM
isnt dark ritual better than chrome mox here? you get to turn1 hymn/nighthawk..
But that's pretty much it. You also get turn one Hymn off of Chrome Mox and a swamp, but that's beside the point.

Mox provides consistent mana acceleration, but is probably worse than running Hierarch or Birds (Birds is likely better because of all of the black mana requirements, even though Exalted is the better ability here).

I would think that Qasali Pridemage deserves a spot in the list, probably instead of Descendant (which seems weak). Finks is probably better at racing than Descendant from a damage perspective and is easier to cast, but gains much less life over time. I'd still be inclined to go with Finks simply because Descendant seems so underwhelming.

Anusien
11-30-2009, 04:19 PM
Descendant of Kiyomaro was originally added to BW Confidant shells to fix up the Goblins matchup. Doesn't seem like Goblins is much of a threat right now, and you said it's pretty marginal against Zoo. What about replacing Descendant with Doran? That way you can keep the Jitte, and replace one three-drop with another. Doran seems much better against Zoo and CB decks than Descendant, who you can sit in the board if you need it to beat Merfolk and random red decks.

keys
11-30-2009, 04:22 PM
This is just The Rock with additional life gain creatures, and Library instead of Top. Not that I don't appreciate the changes, but I don't see how you can pass this off as something entirely new.

Chrome Mox seems awkward. What about STE? Noble Hierarch would be perfect except for no black.

Moczoc
11-30-2009, 04:33 PM
Whenever I see people playing Gerrard's Verdict I have to show them Rise/Fall.

Fall
Sorcery - BR
Target player reveals two cards at random from his or her hand, then discards each nonland card revealed this way.


That card is infinitely better. It is the only "Discard 2 random for 2" (worth playing) besides Hymn.

Go with red instead of white, I'll make a list tomorrow.

beastman
11-30-2009, 04:36 PM
Whenever I see people playing Gerrard's Verdict I have to show them Rise/Fall.

Fall
Sorcery - BR
Target player reveals two cards at random from his or her hand, then discards each nonland card revealed this way.


That card is infinitely better. It is the only "Discard 2 random for 2" (worth playing) besides Hymn.

Go with red instead of white, I'll make a list tomorrow.

Fall is terrible.

1) He doesn't play red.
2) It does nothing if you hit a land.
3) Verdict kicks ass against zoo, which is one of the most popular decks there is.

Aggro_zombies
11-30-2009, 04:41 PM
This is just The Rock with additional life gain creatures, and Library instead of Top. Not that I don't appreciate the changes, but I don't see how you can pass this off as something entirely new.

Chrome Mox seems awkward. What about STE? Noble Hierarch would be perfect except for no black.
To be fair, there's lots and lots of flavors of The Rock, running the gamut from awful midrange control deck to aggro decks with light non-blue disruption.

Bitterblossom might be an interesting alternative to Bob against Zoo. With the amount of life gain the deck has, you should be able to support it for a while, and unless Zoo wants to overextend into EE it seems like throwing tons of guys out to get around it is a bad idea.

More life gain is probably better, though. =/

EDIT: STE is pretty awful without damage on the stack.

Anusien
11-30-2009, 04:51 PM
Once of the best things about Gerrard's Verdict is that it isn't random. I think Doug Linn made the argument once that Verdict was as good as Hymn because people would discard the wrong cards to it and lose. People overvalue the life gain from Verdict and aren't willing to pitch extra lands to Verdict because of it.

keys
11-30-2009, 04:57 PM
To be fair, there's lots and lots of flavors of The Rock, running the gamut from awful midrange control deck to aggro decks with light non-blue disruption.

I'd argue the OP's decklist falls under the category "midrange control" and I think there are a fair number of Rock players who might disagree with your assessment, as well as the OP and his recent T8 placement.


Bitterblossom might be an interesting alternative to Bob against Zoo. With the amount of life gain the deck has, you should be able to support it for a while, and unless Zoo wants to overextend into EE it seems like throwing tons of guys out to get around it is a bad idea.

More life gain is probably better, though. =/

EDIT: STE is pretty awful without damage on the stack.

STE still chumps and sacs which was the purpose most of the time anyway... what is a 1/1 supposed to block and kill in this format??

Aggro_zombies
11-30-2009, 05:06 PM
STE still chumps and sacs which was the purpose most of the time anyway... what is a 1/1 supposed to block and kill in this format??
...Bob? Okay, you've got me.

It still seems worse than Birds or Hierarch, though. The deck has a lot of two-drops as it is: Bob, Goyf, Hymn, Verdict, Jitte, Library.

keys
11-30-2009, 05:10 PM
You're probably right, though, since you want to hit your 3cc spells on turn 2.

Pastorofmuppets
11-30-2009, 05:26 PM
Doran is pretty nasty against Goblins. Making Piledriver a 2/2 is always nice, and outside of Stingscourger they'll have a hell of a time getting rid of him (Doran, I mean).

GreatWhale
12-01-2009, 10:50 PM
Have you tested Tidehollow Sculler? I use to run him in a similar deck but with Knight of the Reliquary and Doran instead of Descendant of Kiyomaro and Vampire Knighthawk. I felt he provided a nice hand disruption as well as a creature that holds jitte.

beastman
12-01-2009, 10:52 PM
I suggested that to gearhart, and he told me "You're stupid, go die". I don't know why, but he seems to think it sucks.

MMogg
12-01-2009, 11:03 PM
Have you tested Tidehollow Sculler? I use to run him in a similar deck but with Knight of the Reliquary and Doran instead of Descendant of Kiyomaro and Vampire Knighthawk. I felt he provided a nice hand disruption as well as a creature that holds jitte.

Wouldn't Mesmeric Fiend be better? He's easier to cast and doesn't die to artifact hate, like Pridemage.

Phoenix Ignition
12-01-2009, 11:26 PM
Wouldn't Mesmeric Fiend be better? He's easier to cast and doesn't die to artifact hate, like Pridemage.

1/1 for 2 in legacy is awful though. I think they both suck, but the 2/2 is definitely slightly better.

GreatWhale
12-02-2009, 04:58 PM
I suggested that to gearhart, and he told me "You're stupid, go die". I don't know why, but he seems to think it sucks.

I also think he sucks, on paper, but he fullfills two roles and isn't dead discard if you have already destroyed their hand. If you haven't tested him I would because I was hesistent to play him before but he really does work well. Mesmeric fiend is easier to cast but this deck already has WW creatures so if you dont have white you have more problems then that. Also the Fiend is half as small as Sculler.

from Cairo
12-07-2009, 01:33 PM
Once of the best things about Gerrard's Verdict is that it isn't random. I think Doug Linn made the argument once that Verdict was as good as Hymn because people would discard the wrong cards to it and lose. People overvalue the life gain from Verdict and aren't willing to pitch extra lands to Verdict because of it.

So if playing against morons, Gerrard's Verdict is as good as Hymn to Torach. If people have excess lands, and elect to pitch business spells to Verdict over 3 life they are retarded. Verdict is insanely worse than Hymn, it will take the two worst cards from their hand, occasionally netting you a Healing Salve.

Tidehallow Sculler seems much better for the CC if the list sticks with Thoughtseize and Hymn to help clear the way for it.

umbowta
12-07-2009, 02:03 PM
Verdict is insanely worse than Hymn, it will take the two worst cards from their hand, occasionally netting you a Healing Salve.

:confused: Isn't that a good thing? The two worst cards in the hand of a competent Legacy player who is piloting a tuned, top tier, competitive, Legacy deck are...good cards!.. otherwise they wouldn't make the deck. Am I missing something? How is that bad? Yes, Hymn is better but come on.

from Cairo
12-07-2009, 05:19 PM
:confused: Isn't that a good thing? The two worst cards in the hand of a competent Legacy player who is piloting a tuned, top tier, competitive, Legacy deck are...good cards!.. otherwise they wouldn't make the deck. Am I missing something? How is that bad? Yes, Hymn is better but come on.

Well the post I was responding too, offered the view point that it could be considered "as good as" Hymn if you're opponent misplays. It's a 2 mana 2 for 1, just on the scale of 2-for-1s it doesn't strike me as that gigantic a blow out.

Compared to the other "playable" discard spells it doesn't strike me as being that great. I mean with Thoughtseize, Tidehallow Sculler or Mesmeric Fiend you gain control over what you're eliminating and you also gain the knowledge of what they're holding.

IE: Is it better to have to remove the most threatening card (and gain a 2/2 or 1/1 body) or the two least threatening cards? I think if already playing Hymn and Thoughtseize, the additional pin-point spell would be more beneficial.

bigbear102
12-07-2009, 06:08 PM
The deck is based off of life gain and card advantage. If the deck continues running Descendant, Verdict is the better choice, as it actually gives you the CA you need to make him better. It also helps in aggro matches because you can run Bob out and not have to worry quite so much. If the opponent wants you to kill yourself with Bob, then he will discard two better cards than lands, I'd take that.

As far as whether or not Descendant should be played, I would say that it gets stronger if you include Doran, making him at least swing for 3. I think a list that runs 2-3 Doran, 3 Descendant, 4 Goyf, 4 Bob, 4 Nighthawk and no Jitte with most of the rest of the list similar, would be a pretty good deck.

myselves
01-17-2010, 08:23 AM
I'd play a quite similar version on a GPT Madrid yesterday. I finished 4-2 becoming 7th out of 42. I decided to not play the T8 (no time and/or money for Madrid).

My list was this:

3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Forest

4 Thoughseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Descendant of Kyiomaro
2 Jotun Grunt
//60

board:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Umezawa's Jitte

My matches were:

2-0 vs. Bant (I was able to handle NO with 2x Thoughtseize Game 1 and Thoguhtseize+Verdict+Teeg in Game 2, without Progenitus it was easy to win this)
2-0 vs Lands.dec (lucky me, Game 1 he mulligans down to 5 and didn't find anything, Game 2 I had 2 Extirpate [on Maze and Loam] and a Crypt to slow him down and win).
2-0 vs. Sligh
1-2 vs. ANT (unlucky me, I took mulligan down to 4 or 5 every single game, but he got 1st or 2nd Turn AN all three games, killing himself once during game 2)
2-1 vs. Sligh
0-2 vs. Zoo (he nearly had everything and I didn't in both games, happens and I probably should have taken more mulligans here during the 2nd game, but I didn't feel comfortable with the idea of 5 cards or less while my opponent kept his oppening 7 the second game)

All in all I was happy with the deck and my version, Sligh felt like a bye, where Zoo was rough to win.

gvbarroso
01-28-2010, 07:23 PM
I really like the list of Myselves!
Just one thing: don't you still feel the deck a little slow?
I believe a solution might be 2-3 Wall of Blossoms, specially with Doran. For only 1G you get a cantrip and a powerful blocker to stop Zoo.

Also, how is EE working out for you? Is it really necessary?

Wargoos
01-28-2010, 07:44 PM
Just one thing: don't you still feel the deck a little slow?
I believe a solution might be 2-3 Wall of Blossoms, specially with Doran. For only 1G you get a cantrip and a powerful blocker to stop Zoo.

Also, how is EE working out for you? Is it really necessary?

Walls aren't really tempo generators.
You want to keep up with zoo and your suggestion is playing walls?
That makes no sense.
The conclusion would be to play more removal for their critters so that they have to go for burn to kill you, which can't work because you have lots of lifegain sources.
Anyways, the deck posted by myselfes should have a fair mu against zoo if you don't draw blanks all the time. I can't see how they can beat you, when you play so much removal and lifegain.

@myselves:
Awesome, now someting must've cracked in your head that you seriously play a deck with tarmogoyfs and grunts^^.
Nice to see your still around in the scene, we have to go to some tourney when I'm around in the north again.
Anyways, gratz for the finish - keep it up, mate!

Oh and also:

Myelves

This one made me actually laugh.

gvbarroso
01-28-2010, 08:27 PM
I have to disagree. The main utility of walls is helping against aggro. Otherwise, why were they one of the most solid cards of the BG Rock decks of old extended? Being a 0/4 is the precise number needed to fight Zoo. 1G is a fair casting cost to pay for such a cantrip and if you have Doran it becomes a pain in the ass of theirs critters. Either they spend a PtE or the wall will basically have a better effect than a removal, most of the time.


Well, you seem like a funny guy. I can picture you laughing at a lot of things, including misstyping...

Wargoos
01-28-2010, 08:40 PM
I have to disagree. The main utility of walls is helping against aggro. Otherwise, why were they one of the most solid cards of the BG Rock decks of old extended? Being a 0/4 is the precise number needed to fight Zoo. 1G is a fair casting cost to pay for such a cantrip and if you have Doran it becomes a pain in the ass of theirs critters. Either they spend a PtE or the wall will basically have a better effect then a removal, most of the time.


Well, you seem like a funny guy. I can picture you laughing at a lot of things, including misstyping...

You said you wanted more tempo and suggested putting in walls - this does not make sense, it's not the question of the WoB being good.
I honestly do not have enough practice with this arche-/decktype to make carddecisions. As I pointed out, I would rather test more removal instead of walls that need doran to work. Also if you want library manipulation play tops or libraries or something.
And a 0/4 wall won't get you far I think considering that goyfs and lynx outgrow them easily.

Also before it becomes personal, You don't know me at all so stop accusing me of anything before you have started it. Also before getting stuff wrong read my post. I know the guy who posted the list and I laughed imagening him when reading your typo. It was not directed to you at all.

I don't suggest you to do anything, play the deck as you like I honestly do not care for this or the archetype at all and just posted to get in touch with my mate again.
Jeez, people sure get picky easily nowadays.

€dit: Also if you have further issues with me just pm me - let's keep this thread clean of such stuff.

gvbarroso
01-28-2010, 09:39 PM
Ok, point on the whole laughing thing taken.

As for the suggestion of the Wall, I didn't say I wanted more tempo. I said I was thinking of something faster, less cc. The Wall is very good at blocking many creatures of the format, and Goyf can be answered by other ways. It is good by itself, including the fact that you get a blocker without lost in card advantage (which can be critical in a momment of the game where your Descendants are leading the board). It only gets better with Doran. Yes, I will definitely test it :wink:

myselves
01-30-2010, 08:35 AM
I really like the list of Myselves!
Just one thing: don't you still feel the deck a little slow?
I believe a solution might be 2-3 Wall of Blossoms, specially with Doran. For only 1G you get a cantrip and a powerful blocker to stop Zoo.
Could you become a bit more specific on this? Slow or fast for me is always dependent on the deck you're facing. Sure the deck is to slow to have any chances against ANT or Ichorid, but against any other pile (excluding TA and some broken starts by Canadian or EvaGreen) I always felt comfortable with my manabase and the average cc of my draws during tournaments and test-sessions til now.



Also, how is EE working out for you? Is it really necessary?
It was working pretty well that day, but to be honest in general it seems to be more decent than great to me. In general it is and was more a slotfiller like the 2 Jötun Grunts.
I've tested a lot of cards in those 2-4 slots (namely: KotR, Kitchen Finks, Nyxathid, Pridemage, Sculler, Shade, Restless Apparation, Perish, Vindicate and Pulse) but none of them did really impress me. WoB seems worth testing, but also worse vs. anything that's Control or Combo and I'm not afraid to face Sligh or Merfolk with these deck, we'll see.


@EaD: <3
You just have to come to the beatiful north and say a word a few days in front ;)

popeye79
02-01-2010, 04:41 PM
Hello everyone, Mr. Shine told me I might want to post my list over here seeing as how it is very similar.

Hi, I’m a regular over at salvation and I’ve been playing eva green for some time now.

I just recently switched from eva green to the white splash and was hoping to get some feedback, as it's been doing very well for me but there's always room for improvement.. right? First the deck and then some explanations.

3 bobs
3 vampire nighthawks
4 goyfs
3 doran
1 terravore
4 dark rits
2 duress
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn
4 sink holes
3 vinidcate
3 swords
2 shadow of doubt
4 verdant catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 swamp
1 murmuring bosk
4 bayou
4 scrubland
4 wasteland

sb (not firm on this)
1 choke
3 krosan grip
3 extirpate
2 ravenous trap
2 gaddox teeg
3 pernicious deeds
1 shadow of doubt

61 cards I’ve been a fan of for a while, especially with a mana base like this. You can change if you'd like, but don't even bother trying to change my mind on this one, at least not in this deck.

3 bobs is the right number because you're busy disrupting early. Nothing costs more than 3cmc, so I’ve not been afraid to play out 2 or even all 3.

Vampire nighthawks have been amazing for me, help with bobs pain, are bigger with doran, versitile removal similar to vindicate, though I may drop one.

3 swords- with nighthawks, vindicates and discard I didn't feel the full set was needed. Low cmc helps with bob, as well as being able to hit your own creature in a pinch.

3 dorans due to legendary and wanting to run out threats, in addition to color requiems.

1 terravore due to color requirement, but it's a bomb, and with bob you'll draw it more often than not. It’s pretty easy to play him as a 12/12, and trample is just cake.

2 duress ensures a good turn one play, and I face a lot of control.

3 vindicate- color requirement and you'll never want to play it early anyway. You always wait until you've disrupted and figure out your opponent’s game plan.

2 shadow of doubt- this one will probably be the hardest one to sell, but I swear its pimp juice. Not only is it LD, but it replaces itself, and most importantly it's great vs natural order, gifts, ect. I even have a third one in the board. But 2 sylvan libraries might work here.. There really are a lot of things you could put in these slots. However I urge you to try it before you knock it.

Single choke because you're not really gonna want to see more than one, and it's not really needed.

Extirpate and trap vs ichorid. But if you know someone's not playing basics, extirpate a color source can be hard too.

I know deeds are slow, but it's great vs enchantress. Helps vs ichorid tokens. Pretty good with zoo and elves. And mops the floor with afinity (yes, I actually have to play these match ups).

So, what does everyone think?

Kangaxx
02-14-2010, 02:12 PM
Doran seems like the right call, as you said you already have a decent match against Aggro (where Jitte is better, but Doran is still good), so it makes sense to have another must answer threat against Control decks (that generally don't care about Jitte, since they're just killing all your guys anyways if they can manage it), and also better against CounterTop decks (another 3cc spell to get through CBalance).

EDIT: It seems like I'd want to try and jam a 1 of Vindicate into this deck (with the amount of card drawing you have ok chances of drawing it) just as an answer to whatever your opponent resolves that makes you go ".... really? .... "

A 5/5 Descendant is nothing to scoff at either.

blue_mage
02-21-2010, 10:10 PM
I'd play a quite similar version on a GPT Madrid yesterday. I finished 4-2 becoming 7th out of 42. I decided to not play the T8 (no time and/or money for Madrid).

My list was this:

3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Forest

4 Thoughseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Descendant of Kyiomaro
2 Jotun Grunt
//60

board:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Extirpate
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Umezawa's Jitte

My matches were:

2-0 vs. Bant (I was able to handle NO with 2x Thoughtseize Game 1 and Thoguhtseize+Verdict+Teeg in Game 2, without Progenitus it was easy to win this)
2-0 vs Lands.dec (lucky me, Game 1 he mulligans down to 5 and didn't find anything, Game 2 I had 2 Extirpate [on Maze and Loam] and a Crypt to slow him down and win).
2-0 vs. Sligh
1-2 vs. ANT (unlucky me, I took mulligan down to 4 or 5 every single game, but he got 1st or 2nd Turn AN all three games, killing himself once during game 2)
2-1 vs. Sligh
0-2 vs. Zoo (he nearly had everything and I didn't in both games, happens and I probably should have taken more mulligans here during the 2nd game, but I didn't feel comfortable with the idea of 5 cards or less while my opponent kept his oppening 7 the second game)

All in all I was happy with the deck and my version, Sligh felt like a bye, where Zoo was rough to win.


I like your list except for the jotun grunts and the engineered explosives.

I also would like to ask some questions. Have you tried putrid leech or kitchen finks instead of playing juton grunts?

Is engineered explosives really needed? Or would pernicious deed be better in the slot or vindicate.

And lastly can I add 1 more bayou and remove 1 scrubland?

Thanks in advance