[Deck] NO Planeswalker

[Al-ucard]

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29647

Once I see that this deck wins a 51 men tournament I give it a try and I haved been playing it for 3 weeks.

In my testing it proves to be a good deck, wining more matches with it than with my rock or my armageddon stax decks. This deck has the ability to win the matches you almost think you lost. I recommend you to test it.

The problem with this list is that in advanced matches, when I have 4 or more mana I don't wanted to draw a BoP or a Hierarch when I could draw NO or Ajani and maybe decide de match.

So I decided to quit hierarch (because this deck uses so much red) and put 4 Sensei's divining top adding more shuffle effects with 2 more fetchlands. I decided to put more basic lands for security.

So this is my list for now:

21 Lands
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Savannah
3 Taiga
2 Treetop village
4 Windswept heath
4 Wooded foothills

17 Creatures
4 Birds of paradise
4 Qasali pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Woolly Thotcar
1 Progenitus

22 Others
4 Lightning helix
2 Path to exile
2 Swords to plowshares
3 Natural order
4 Ajani Vengeant
4 Sensei's divining top
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

60 Total

15 Sideboard
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Pyroblast
3 Red elemental blast
2 Circle of protection: Red
4 Relic of progenitus
1 Tormod's crypt

The sideboard is not tested but I think it needed some changes.

What do you think about? Any thoughts?

Thanks

[Maveric78f]

I think that the birds should be replaced with Noble Hierarch (red does not looks like the best colour of the deck).
I think that the deck completely folds to combo. But why not. That's a understandable choice.
I think that Elpeth is the best Planeswalker and I'm suprised not to see it.
I think that Sarkhan Vol might find a place too.
I think that Treetop Village is awful.
I think that 1 Dryad Arbor would be nice for NO, but I'm not sure NO combo is that sexy in this deck that is already filled with 4CC spells.
I think that the SB is strange.

-4 Birds
-3 Ajani
-1 Garruk
-2 Treetop Village
-2 Savannah
-1 Taiga
+4 Noble Hierarch
+2 Elspeth
+2 Sarkhan Vol
+2 WR fetches
+1 Plains
+1 Plateau
+1 Dryad Arbor

[Al-ucard]

I agree about fit some WR fetches and and maybe is better hierarch than birds but not about put Elspeth. Its true that Elspeth is one of the best planeswalkers, but this is not a reason to put him in every deck.

In this deck is much usefull deal 3 damage or leave a permanent tapped than put 1/1 or make one creature +3+3 and fly.

[meanee]

It looks like your deck needs more swords and less thoctar! What is the reasoning behind thoctar? Your deck is not aggressive, playing unbelievable amounts of planeswalkers and what not. So why? You could play controling creatures like troll ascetic or kitchen finks instead.

Playing no thoctar also makes the switch from birds to hierarch hurt less. This switch is important. Birds is no good, whereas hierarch helps you win the goyf war.

One of the problems as I see it, is that the decks tries to many different directions. You want to be aggressive playing thoctar, and you're heavy control playing 7 planeswalkers. You should decide which role you want.

- meanee

[Maveric78f]

I do think that the deck is aggressive. With that much exaltation, and Elspeth is great with Thoctar, making him almost a 2-turns clock (if you have exaltation in addition to this). I also agree that Ajani is great in the deck, probably better than Garruk which is the worst planeswalker among Elspeth, Ajani and Sarkhan Vol. I would keep a 2/2/2/1 split.

And this is a strong mistake to think that planeswalkers can't be aggro. Elspeth is insanely aggro. You can compare it with a 3/3 flying haste creature (even if it's far better of course).

[godryk]

I agree, with a tight curve and some acceleration Elspeth can be very aggro, as it's played in that weird frechie Bant Loam deck. When you can go: T1 Hierarch, T2 Thoctar/Goyf, T3 Elspeth, hit for 9, you are not stalling the game.

[Burrito]

I played the original deck at a 21 player Legacy tournament, and came 2nd.

I lost only to ANT in the swiss, which frankly is an impossible MU, and to a G/W Midrange-deck in the finals (Meanee should know that deck). I won against Demigod Intuition, CbTop, Merfolk, Merfolk and Stiflenought, and drew against Cephalid Breakfast (which I would have won if I hadn't punted one game).

What the deck is good at is presenting many and early threats, giving your opponents are hard time. Woolly Thoctars were excellent for me, often giving me a round 2 threat that played around Spell Snare.

Problems with the deck
- Combo is autoloss
- No way to pitch Progenitus
- No good way to restock your hand if your early threats are answered

I can see the benefits of having SDT and would like to hear how it works out for you. ATM there seems to be a place for midrange aggro decks in the meta, as they have performed quite well during recent time. And this list is quite good, but I believe there is much room for tweaking.

The list I ran for reference:

CREATURES (22)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Woolly Thoctar
1 Progenitus
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Kitchen Finks

SORCERIES (3)
3 Natural Order

INSTANTS (8)
4 Lightning Helix
2 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares

PLANESWALKERS (7)
4 Ajani Vengeant
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

LANDS (20)
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
3 Taiga
1 Plateau
3 Treetop Village
2 Forest
1 Plains

SIDEBOARD
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Summoning Trap
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Great Sable Stag

[Grollub]

How often does this deck need/use the NO/Progenitus package?

[Burrito]

How often does this deck need/use the NO/Progenitus package?

Not that often. I maybe cast it four times during the tournament. Half of the time it was game winning, the other times just a win more condition. I also cast it once to fetch a Tarmogoyf since Progentius was in my hand.

But just the threat of NO often gets your opponent to play more careful and less aggressiv. And it's always nice to have a couple "I win" cards in a deck. But I guess you can streamline the deck a bit more by taking away the NO package.

[meanee]

I know that elpeth can be very aggressive, but she's not in the deck... She should be, Of course, but as of now she's not, and that was what I was building my reply on.

I still don't think that the red cards are worth it, and actually I think I'd rather play GW midrange... But thats another story.

If you do want to play with red cards, there is absolutely no reason not to switch garruk for elspeth, and maybe cut a vengeant or two, upping the mana-0/1's to 5-6.

The latest list (Burrito's) looks a lot better than the original. I wouldn't play 4 vengeant and I wouldn't play 8 0/1s. And I would really test the progenitus slots a lot, while I think its not worth it, and I hate the combo (I do think it is personal reference though).

Finally I would play no less than 21 lands (with a max of 6 birds), and no less than 6 swords. And talking about swords; what is the reasoning behind running a 2/2 split between swords and path?

- meanee

[Al-ucard]

It's true that Elspeth is better than Garruk, but since I don't have them I'm testing with Garruk. In this point, since I have 2 Baneslayer Angel I think I will test them in there...

About SDT I have to say that with enough suffle effects its awesome, because it prevents you to draw Progenitus sometimes and makes top deck mode better if your threats are responded.

Also I neither know the reasoning of playing 2/2 StP/PtE...

[meanee]

If you don't have a reason, why do it? One of them must be the better removal (and I'd say swords is better than path). Nobody is going to name swords with their meddling mage (nobody plays the mage anyway), so thats no reason.

- meanee

[Maveric78f]

What about cabal therapy in Ichorid and NO order Rock?
What about having both in hand (or visible with top) and then chose the most relevant one?

Plus, when you have a curve@4, you want to be able to Path your birds/hierarch in response to a lightning bolt. Path is as good as STP here I think.

[arebennian]

Hypothesis:
The 2 Path 2 Swords split is because when you are aggroing out an opponent you don't want to accelerate them too much (because they will be more likely to be able to play an answer) and you don't want to give them too much life (because they might stabilize).

If you use removal twice in the match, providing your opponent with either effect twice may well win them the match.
Providing them with each once is probably less beneficial.



<<EDIT>> Mav is probably on the money.

[Al-ucard]

In my last testings I draw progenitus a lot and I think I will quit the pack, in this case, what do you think about this list?

21 Lands
4 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Savannah
3 Taiga
4 Windswept heath
4 Wooded foothills

18 Creatures
4 Noble hierarch
4 Qasali pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Woolly Thotcar
3 Eternal witness

21 Others
4 Lightning helix
3 Path to exile
3 Swords to plowshares
4 Ajani Vengeant
4 Sensei's divining top
3 Elspeth

60 Total

[soiber2000]

@Al-ucard

I like your last list a lot. It is what I have been looking for.
If it works for you with your testing group make us know :wink:

[Maveric78f]

About the mana base, I'd play -3 savannah, -1 taiga, -1 forest, +1 plateau, +1 plains, +3 Horizon Canopy.

About the MD, it's green creatures with non green spells. I'd go -1 sensei, -1 Path, -1 STP +1 Witness, +2 Grim Lavamancer.

Do you have any plan against Perish? It looks like a big problem of your list.

[Tao]

About the MD, it's green creatures with non green spells.

Never seen that in Legacy before, huh?

List could use 2 or 3 Jitte insteas of spot removal for more efficient board control. The Lavamancer suggestion sounds good, too.

[Al-ucard]

I think I prefer jitte than lavamancer because is more difficult to kill and because i don't want to remove graveyard cards playing eternal witness.

Last friday I've been testing against merfolks, dragon stompy, zoo and vampire decks.

Zoo are my 2 first matches and I win 2-0, anyway I have to say that its a difficult match, because with so many 4cc cards if you don't draw some helix or Stp first turns you're owned.

Merfolks seems easy but I losed 75% of games we played all because I haved no mana. I decided to quit 1 Ajani and add 1 more land. After that the deck seems to run better.

Dragon stompy its an easy matchup, Ajani deals all the work here because they don't have so many creatures and you could tap them and almost all are killable with -2 ability, and thanks to Qasali and Thotcar chalice its not a problem.

Vampire decks are easy to thanks to lightning helix and 6 Stp effects. In this matchup SDT shines because all discard effects they have.