[DECK] Hexmage Depth's

[Kanabo]

iv recently found the interest to incorperate the Hexmage depths combo with A Landstill deck, and that wish a Team America deck (Team America is what I currently play)

here is the deck (yes i know it has too many cards, that is why i need your help)

Hexmage Depths:

Mana: 23
3 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Creatures: 9
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Spells: 34
3 Bitterblossom
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Living Wish
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Living wish

What can I Change?

[LegacyDan]

Why are your running LD and Counters in the same deck? FoWs seem kinda out of place to me here.

[Hopo]

I fancy the idea of planting the combo in Team America shell. If you cut Standstills and Blossoms, it would make a great skeleton. That also gives you room for Snuff Out or Spell Pierce, which can be devastating with the mana denial plan.

You have listed 8 Living Wishes, which I would all cut. In my opinion the best package is 4 Hexmage, 2 Depths and some number of Crop Rotations.

I would start testing with this rough draft:

16 lands
4 Wasteland
2 Dark Depths

4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Crop Rotation
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize

The manabase looks hideous though.

[ktkenshinx]

Combo decks should not be diluted. If your purpose is to win with a certain combination of cards, the rest of your deck should be dedicated to any/all of three objectives:

1) Finding the combo
2) Accelerating the combo
3) Protecting the combo

Historically, the best combo decks have been streamlined monsters capable of consistently deploying their win condition by a certain turn. By no means does this mean that your deck needs to win on turn 2 or 3 in order to be a viable strategy. A far later win would be equally acceptable, so long as you were appropriately using your turns in the interim period.

With that in mind, let us turn to both decklists presented on this thread:

Hexmage Depths:

Mana: 23
3 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Creatures: 9
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Spells: 34
3 Bitterblossom
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Living Wish
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Living wish
A number of cards in this deck are really not helping the combo. Specifically, I turn your attention to Tombstalker, Bitterblossom, and the omnipresent Tarmogoyf. 10 valuable slots in your combo deck are being taken up by random beatdown cards that serve no other role than to give you a false sense of insurance in case you cannot establish your combo. In the end, this will only make the deck a subpar combo deck and a subpar beatdown deck, unlikely to experience victory against a dedicated opponent.

-4 Tarmogoyf
-4 Bitterblossom
-2 Tombstalker

Also, I do not like the inclusion of Living Wish for one reason; it is a Sorcery. In general, unless your Sorcery has an irreplaceable role within your deck, it is almost always better to seek out an instant alternative. Hopo's use of Crop Rotation is far more promising. Whether played in response to a Wasteland or Strip Mine, or just played at the end of an opponent's turn, Rotation offers up many more options than does just the Wish.

-4 Living Wish
+4 Crop Rotation

The countermagic base appears strong at first glance, although I feel that the discard in Kanabo's list is sorely lacking from Hopo's. That said, the inclusion of black is probably better used for card disruption or combo aiding as opposed to just land destruction; Sinkhole should become something more useful to the deck.

With all this in mind, here are the cards I propose for the deck

-4 Sinkhole
+3 Lim Dul's Vault

An excellent card for combo decks, pitchable to FoW, cheap, finds anything, etc; this should not be dismissed from any testing. Considering that it can find virtually anything in the deck at any time, you would be wise to include it.

One of the awesome parts of the deck is Dark Depths being a land. Most discard spells can't touch it, counterspells obviously have nothing on it, and most destruction is just not targeted at it. Bounce is still a problem, as is Swords to Plowshares, but this gives your opponent a far smaller window in which they can kill your combo.

With all this in mind, and some additional tweaks, here is the deck that I propose.

Lands: 21
2 Dark Depths
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Creatures: 4
4 Vampire Hexmage

Spells: 34
3 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Rune Snag
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Crop Rotation
2 Ebony Charm

The card most worth looking at here is Ebony Charm. The Charm gives you maindecked graveyard hate and a virtual guarantee that your token can attack for the kill, all at one mana. With Brainstorm, Standstill, Ponder, and LDV, you should have little trouble finding it if needed (or any card in your deck, at that).

-ktkenshinx-

[Michael Keller]

With all this in mind, and some additional tweaks, here is the deck that I propose.

Lands: 21
2 Dark Depths
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Creatures: 4
4 Vampire Hexmage

Spells: 34
3 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Rune Snag
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Crop Rotation
2 Ebony Charm

Here's a few things worth noting about this list:

1.) Ebony Charm is absolutely terrible. It serves no purpose other than to ensure your Avatar cannot be blocked. Even then, it is a two-of that is more often than not a dead draw given its distorted purpose. It's an attempt to be cute; nothing more. Vampire Hexmage can knock-off Bridge's against Ichorid, and that is really all you should be concerned about.

2.) Standstill is God-awful in the build you propose. Banking on trying to remove counters at a snail's pace with no offense (Factory) or defense (Wasteland) beneath it is asking for trouble.

3.) Rune Snag is again a sub-par choice. Why would you want to settle for mediocre counter-magic when you already run Daze, Force, and Thoughtseize? That is way more than enough protection.

4.) You have no other offense or recursive element in your deck to support such a fragile combo. How do you intend to stop a heated and aggressive smackdown from decks like Zoo or Merfolk? You can't because you have no removal and are banking on getting two cards together that eat it to just about every removal spell in the format.

Living Wish is excellent in that it opens your options up in the sideboard and allows you to obtain either piece of the combo without having to hold on to drawing in to either-or.

Crop Rotation is a must; this I agree on.

Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker are outstanding beaters and absolutely do not give you a "false sense of security". Those cards are premiere win-conditions in shells such as the B/G builds proposed and what makes the combo so versatile is its ability to surpise an opponent at any stage of the game. They will force an opponent to expend valuable resources (such as removal and counter-magic) on them so you open yourself up to execute the combo and attack without a hitch. Tombstalker can be just as dangerous as an Avatar token, if not more; the token eats it to Oblivion Ring, Tombstalker doesn't (in which case you play green for Grip, which is unbelievably important).

The list you propose lacks any firepower, board-control and position; just a bunch of counter-magic in hopes you can stay alive long enough until you find both pieces (even with L.D.V., still), in which case by then an opponent will have built up so much protection because you haven't played anything.

[Smmenen]

Combo decks should not be diluted. If your purpose is to win with a certain combination of cards, the rest of your deck should be dedicated to any/all of three objectives:

1) Finding the combo
2) Accelerating the combo
3) Protecting the combo

Historically, the best combo decks have been streamlined monsters capable of consistently deploying their win condition by a certain turn. By no means does this mean that your deck needs to win on turn 2 or 3 in order to be a viable strategy. A far later win would be equally acceptable, so long as you were appropriately using your turns in the interim period.

I think that's exactly wrong.

Historically, the most successful combo decks are those that are hybrids, or non-linear. The more streamlined a deck is, the more vulnerable it is to strategies that directly attack it. The less linear it is, the more difficult it is to hate out.

The most successful combo deck in Legacy history was the Counterbalance-Flash list that won Grand Prix Columbus (success = winning large Legacy tournament; I don't count winning tournaments of less than 50 players). That deck was different from all of the other Flash lists in that it wasn't a streamlined list designed to: 1) find, 2) accellerate and 3) protect the combo. On the contrary, it had this built in Counterbalance and Dark Confidant synergy plan that would help is survive counter-strategies.

Similarly, at GP Philadelphia, the most successful Time Vault + Flame Fusilade combo deck was not the list that had the streamlined combo, but the one that Rich Shay played, with Stasis and other synergies.

Analogies can be found all over magic. Slightly less focused combo decks that are slightly slower are often more resilient, and therefore more successful.

[Michael Keller]

With all this in mind, and some additional tweaks, here is the deck that I propose.

Lands: 21
2 Dark Depths
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Creatures: 4
4 Vampire Hexmage

Spells: 34
3 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Rune Snag
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Crop Rotation
2 Ebony Charm


One more thing probably worth taking note of is that this list contains 59 cards.

[ktkenshinx]

Hollywood:
I agree that Ebony Charm is more of an effort to be cute than anything actually useful, and I similarly agree that overly redundant protection spells do not really help the deck too much. Also, I see the utility of Living Wish as both a tutor for combo pieces and a method of finding answers.

That being said, I still maintain that the deck does not need the alternate “on-the-clock” win conditions of beaters like Tombstalker and Goyf. While you might randomly pull out a win here and there with the cards, you would almost assuredly guarantee more wins overall by streamlining the deck to its dedicated win conditions.

As far as controlling the board goes, the following cards might prove useful. We have 10 slots for such cards owing to the removal of these:
-4 Standstill
-4 Rune Snag
-2 Ebony Charm

Which frees up space for some of the following
Pernicious Deed
Diabolic Edict
Moment’s Peace
Smother
Innocent Blood
Engineered Explosives

I am particularly partial to Deed and EE, as both of these are best suited towards weathering an early aggro onslaught. Moment’s Peace is more reactive, but is more economical in that it is effectively two cards in one. Both Deed and Explosives are particularly effective owing to Zoo/Merfolk’s creature composition, with most of its beaters at 1 or 2 CMC. Smother can pick up the slack to deal with other threats if need be.

As to the deck containing 59 cards, it indeed contains 60. I accidentally kept the old “Spells: 34” quote from Kanabo’s initial post, instead of updating it to “Spells: 35”.

Smmenen:
While I acknowledge that combo decks need not be built in accordance with the philosophy I propose (your counter examples alone excellently prove this), some of the strongest combo decks in Magic have indeed been built around such a strategy. Taking an historic appraisal of this idea, I offer the following decks by way of example. This list, which is by no means exhaustive, covers a variety of different formats over a long span of time.

1. Illusions/Donate
2. Cocoa Pebbles and Fruity Pebbles
3. Angry Hermit
4. One Land Belcher
5. Prosperous Bloom
6. Dragon
7. Flash Hulk
8. Dragonstorm
9. Ad Nauseam Tendrils
10. Cephalid Breakfast (old Extended version)

I admit it is possible that there exist versions of these decks which involve alternate win strategies and conditions. Yet, for each of those that can be shown, I can provide a dedicated version that adheres to the Find/Accelerate/Protect model that enjoyed considerable tournament success.

Thus, while I accept that combo does not always, 100% of the time, need to be “dedicated”, Magic history shows that these dedicated versions are extremely successful. Moreover, if tournament reports are any indicator, they appear to be more successful than are less-dedicated versions.

-ktkenshinx-

[Michael Keller]

As to the deck containing 59 cards, it indeed contains 60. I accidentally kept the old “Spells: 34” quote from Kanabo’s initial post, instead of updating it to “Spells: 35”.

Even changing the number of how many spells you apply to the post, the list itself contains 59 cards. Not to nit-pick, but you can count and see for yourself. Your original assessment of "34 cards" was correct.

Either way, I really think you should take a look at some of the B/G versions of this deck; they are far more consistent and much more effective with spot-removal, board-sweepers, recursive elements, potent creatures, and tutor effects.

The list you proposed contains these elements at the lowest common denominator. I tried a similar list using a U/B version at a recent large event to a disappointing mediocre finish, which left a bad taste in my mouth. I have since become a firm advocate of the B/G version.

[ktkenshinx]

I am concerned that the B/G version of the deck would lose a lot of the card drawing power that the B/U/g version has; Brainstorm and LDV to name the two most potent losses. While I am fully on board with a B/U/g version, or even a B/G/u version, the blue appears too important to just outright cut.

The countermagic could be replaced with more spot removal and disruption from the Black department, but removing the card advantage effects of Blue seems to be an error. For reference, what decklist are you referring to?

Also, not to get bogged down in semantics or sound aggressive, but I must insist that the total is indeed 35 spells. Here is the list of cards with the total in parentheses.

3 Lim Dul's Vault (3)
4 Standstill (7)
4 Force of Will (11)
3 Daze (14)
4 Rune Snag (18)
4 Thoughtseize (22)
4 Brainstorm (26)
3 Ponder (29)
4 Crop Rotation (33)
2 Ebony Charm (35)

Although an updated list would have the Standstills and Snags removed to add in spot and mass removal.

-ktkenshinx-

[Vacrix]

Grim Discovery seems decent. You can return Depths or Hexmage, obviously, but you can also return Goyf's that were thoughtseized/smothered away and/or used up wastelands.


Lands: 21
2 Dark Depths
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Creatures: 4
4 Vampire Hexmage

Spells: 34
3 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Rune Snag
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Crop Rotation
2 Ebony Charm

Where is Deed? You play one creature and create one indestructible token. Might as well throw a few in. Also, why not run stifle? It helps your storm combo matchup, can fit into the mana denial strategy by stifling fetchlands, and can stifle your opponents wasteland on your depths.

[Smmenen]

Hollywood:
Smmenen:
While I acknowledge that combo decks need not be built in accordance with the philosophy I propose (your counter examples alone excellently prove this), some of the strongest combo decks in Magic have indeed been built around such a strategy. Taking an historic appraisal of this idea, I offer the following decks by way of example. This list, which is by no means exhaustive, covers a variety of different formats over a long span of time.

1. Illusions/Donate
2. Cocoa Pebbles and Fruity Pebbles
3. Angry Hermit
4. One Land Belcher
5. Prosperous Bloom
6. Dragon
7. Flash Hulk
8. Dragonstorm
9. Ad Nauseam Tendrils
10. Cephalid Breakfast (old Extended version)


I'm so glad you used these examples because they support my point, not yours.

Let's consider Illusions Donate. Your argument was:
What is the fastest way to: 1) find, 2) accelerate, and 3) protect the combo.
Illusions Donate was so unique precisely because it was *not* a raw combo deck. Rather, it was a control-combo strategy, just like the Flash list that won GP Columbus.

There were many other tutors and acceleration available to Illusions Donate pilots circa 2001, but Kai Budde and Co opted to go with the hybrid route rather than the hyper-linear combo style. In fact, they would often SB out the combo for Morphlings, just to make this all the more evident.

And, as for one-land Belcher, that has never won a major tournament that I am aware of, in Vintage, Legacy, or elsewhere. It may have won a 50 player or so tournament here or there, maybe someone can find one in Europe in the last couple of years, but it's never been a serious contender for winning tournaments.

[ktkenshinx]

Smmenen:
I must insist that the examples I have discussed indeed support the point I am making. I concede that Mr. Budde used 3 Morphlings in his sideboard which were brought in for games 2 and 3, but I must also cite another decklist specifically for Legacy. It is, in fact, your own take on the deck, and while it is an old archetype from many years ago, it nonetheless illustrates my point:

Legacy Illusions/Donate

Artifacts
4 Sapphire Medallion

Enchantments
4 Illusions Of Grandeur

Instants
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain Of Vapor
4 Counterspell
2 Fire / Ice
4 Force Of Will
3 Intuition

Sorceries
4 Donate
4 Merchant Scroll

Basic Lands
10 Island

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
4 Pyroclasm
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Open Slots

Now, I admit freely that this is an older deck and thus perhaps not suited to the current metagame. Yet, looking at this deck, it is clear that the cards in it all are 100% tailored to the purposes I mentioned. It is possible that we can argue about the purpose of the countermagic and other disruptive spells; is their purpose protecting the combo or preventing the opponent from winning? If you contend the latter, then we are indeed on the same page. Countermagic to prevent the opponent from winning is perfectly acceptable in a combo deck. I have absolutely nothing against this sort of strategy, so long as the end goal is still to win with your core combo. Your own Legacy interpretation of Illusions/Donate clearly reflects this philosophy.

Turning to the other examples which were not addressed, I admit that One Land Belcher has not won a major event. Yet, all of the other examples I mentioned unquestionably have. Moreover, examining their respective decklists, we find that they have done so through the philosophy of Finding/Accelerating/Protecting their combo (in various different capacities ).

In summary, my chief argument is now, and has always been, that combo decks should not be diluted. Extra disruption and countermagic does not necessarily do this; it is often, in fact, helpful in various matches to assure your combo's success. Adding in extra win conditions, however, just muddies the waters.

The Hexmage/Depths combo deserves all manner of protection in the form of Deeds/Thoughtseizes/FoW/Daze/etc. But it does not need Goyf and Tombstalker as its back up plan.

Vacrix
I earlier acknowledged the importance of Deed, as you are right in identifying it as an excellent inclusion.

In the U/B version of the deck, Grim Discovery seems slightly underpowered. Building off of earlier discussions, the slots for that recursion are better spent at getting board control and stabilizing potentially dangerous situations.

Stifle, however, is a far more interesting idea. Its ability to stop the omnipresent Fetchlands makes it a virtual one mana Sinkhole, in addition to a counter to faster storm based decks. As the new spellbase, I would suggest something like the following:

Tutor/Draw: 12
4 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation

Board Control: 9
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Engineered Explosives

Countermagic/Disruption: 14
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
3 Stifle

Explosives supplements Deed to offer some wide-ranging options for putting a hold on an aggressive board. They could, however, be replaced with spot removal (as well as -1 Edict) to give you more options for particularly troublesome creatures that slip into play and are out of Deed range.

-ktkenshinx-

[Kanabo]

so do you think that this deck can be competative?

[Mystical_Jackass]

A friend runs a B/G version, it's slightly different, it's based more off cabal therapy/bloodghast, smallpox, sinkhole, goyf (sorta backup win condition at times), and wishes. I tried playing it with several decks, It's shocking 'cause it just sounds like "there's no way I'm gonna lose" but it really is very very tough to stop, he has so many ways to get the victory it's harder than it looks lol.


Lim-dul's vault! I love oldschool, it'll be interesting to see how that tests out with Blue. Without any other creatures could be a lil' dangerous, if it doesn't go your way ya know, its just me but seems like maybe even throwing in a few tombstalkers or something deffinitely wouldn't hurt. Stifle seems sorta random too... but I could be wrong >.<

[AcidFiend]

I agree with the direction ktkenshinx is trying to take the deck. That said, could this combo be run successfully in the Dreadnought shell? That has proven itself to be a top tier deck protecting a 2-card creature-based combo. The strongest things it brings are probably Counterbalance + SDT, which means you can protect your token all day long from Swords & Path etc. The token is also more resilient to the ever-present Zoo which is plaguing Dreadnought with its Pridemage & Krosan Grips.

[easyrider]

Acid Fiend, I like how you think. I posted a list here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15548

but apparently nobody thought it was any good. The only change I would make from there is -1 Daze +1 Pithing Needle (for Wasteland).

[Mr. Durden]

Hi guys, Hollywood and Mystical_Jackass both mentioned B/G versions. I'm pretty interested in that version, if only because I think I already have most of the cards for it. Could you guys post some B/G lists you think would be successful?

[AcidFiend]

easyrider: haha, wouldn't you know? Nice post, I never saw that :smile:

I guess the benefit of Dreadnought is you can fetch them with Trinket Mage, while you're just hoping to draw into Hexmage. Maybe the Green splash lists would be better, with Goyf standing in before Marit Lage arrives.

I'm going to test something like this and report back - sounds fun :wink:

[Nizmox]

Hi guys, Hollywood and Mystical_Jackass both mentioned B/G versions. I'm pretty interested in that version, if only because I think I already have most of the cards for it. Could you guys post some B/G lists you think would be successful?

A guy here in Sydney ran a B/G list. He did pretty well but it's a small tourney, see list linked below.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29506

[EssKay]

I was originally running the combo in a mono-black suicide black kind of shell, but I've recently switched to a more Deadguy-like shell and it's much stronger. I'm not sure if this or the Deadguy thread is the more appropriate place to post the list and discuss it though.

[Deadelvis]

Hi,

I'm giving you the list I'm working on, across between rock and dark depths combo :

Lands
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [B] Bayou
2 [B] Scrubland
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [CS] Dark Depths
1 [GUR] Plains
1 [GUR] Forest
1 [GUR] Swamp

// Creatures
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
3 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

// Spells
3 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [ZEN] Grim Discovery
3 [AP] Vindicate
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [JU] Living Wish
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TE] Wasteland
SB: 1 [CS] Dark Depths
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [DK] Maze of Ith
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague


The choice of cards :

All the green creatures are good for aggro (and quite useful too for qasali).

The vampire hexmage is part of the combo. Faerie macabre is strong maindeck against a lot of the current decks. I put three of most of the creatures I can also get through living wish.


The wishes allow me to find the combo or any utility needed. The side is mainly a toolbox, apart from the plagues (some people play gob or elf aroud here).

Grim discovery is a star : gives the combo back, or smoothes the mana base or gives a tarmo or another creature back. Or gives wasteland back :)

The discard is strong, especially therapy which works well with kitchen finks or grim discovery.

Vindicate, Swords, jitte are here to control what the opponent puts on the table. Kind of staples in rock.


The lands are pretty much classical. The basics are a way to fight against reccurent wasteland.



And yet, I'm not perfectly happy. I tried dark confidants, but I lost more often because of the life loss than I won because of the draw. I'd like more lands, but frankly I have trouble to decide which card should stay and which card should leave.

Any idea ?

[EssKay]

If you're running Living Wish and Grim Discovery, then you probably don't need 3x of either of the combo pieces. I would cut it to one or two of each, maybe throw in Crop Rotation for some extra tutoring/utility.

Also Faerie Macabre seems bad here. If you're going to go Rock style with it, might as well have Knight of the Reliquary, since she's usually huge and can also help you dig up your combo.

[TygerClaw]

Here's my take on going for the Dark Depths/Vampire Hexmage combo.
There's a lot of recursion in the deck, and a living wish sideboard.

Cthulhu Reborn

4 crop rotation
4 living wish
4 tarmogoyf
3 vampire hexmage
4 tortured existence (may be better as grim discovery)
4 life from the loam
2 eternal witness
1 genesis
2 grazing gladehart (may be better as something else)
4 mox diamond
4 verdant catacombs
1 bayou
1 savannah
3 riftstone portal
1 ghost quarter (should be wasteland?)
2 dark depths
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 forest
3 swamp
1 maze of ith
1 volrath’s stronghold
1 dryad arbor
1 high market (should be diamond valley)
4 windswept heath

Sideboard (highly variable to metagame)
1 dark depths
1 vampire hexmage
1 ob nixilis
1 shriekmaw
1 qasali pridemage
1 spore frog
3 pernicious deed
1 loaming shaman
1 eternal witness
1 terravore
4 pithing needle


Combo
Vampire Hexmage: Have 3 main and 1 in board for living wish. Surprisingly useful against a lot of decks, such as merfolk, affinity, and aggro red to a point (if they use hellspark elemental, ball lightning etc.)
Dark Depths: Two is best maindeck. Can be tutored for but if destroyed another can be found. Living wish can also get another from the board if needed

Recursion Cards
Tortured Existence: This is a hold over from my past green/black life from the loam deck that much more dredge in it, this might be better off as grim discovery or some kind of disruption
Genesis: Great for the long game, gives you recursive hexmage, witness or goyf. can also recur spore frog if necessary
Volrath's stronghold: With land tutors, why wouldn't you put this creature recursive card in the deck?
Eternal Witness: For all your graveyard supply depot needs
Life from the loam: Great for getting back lands after wastelands or Flying avatars that go farming

Tutors
Crop rotation: Instant that gets the land you need most.
Living Wish: Can get you either piece of the combo, or other necessary disruptive creatures in the board.

One-of tutor targets
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth: can make the non-mana making lands make mana, along with riftstone portal, all color needs are met
Maze of Ith: Slows down a lot of aggro and can't be countered.
Dryad Arbor: I'm trying this card out. With life from the loam and tortured existence it can be another engine. If i remove tortured existence this one will likely become another bayou or forest.
High Market: Another hold over from the dredge deck. Nice against swords to plowshares targeting your goyf or hexmage if necessary. Diamond valley would be better, but damn at its prices it better BE made of diamonds!!
Ghost Quarter: Slowly but surely run your opponent outta lands or colors. Wasteland may be better.
Ob Nixilis: A alternative to big flying avatar win condition. Nice if extirpate is around and it gets all hexmages or depths.
Shriekmaw: Great way to get rid of a lot of problem creatures, able to recur and avoids counterbalance
Qasali Pridemage: Some artifacts and enchantments just have to go.
Loaming Shaman: Good protection from milling type decks, but not sure if Gaea's blessing would be a better board card in this slot
Spore Frog: With recursion going, Zoo frequently has problems depending on how much burn they run
Terravore: Another big fatty to win with.

Other Cards
Tarmogoyf: Bit fatty with a big target on his head. Better him farming than the Cthulhu clone
Mox Diamond: A lot of two drops in the deck, makes the combo one turn faster, and a way to get riftstone portal in the yard
Riftstone Portal: Fantastic way to get green mana out of all your lands. Goes to the yard with crop rotation and mox diamond usually. With 3 its also likely to be flipped from a dredge activation eventually. Also good for any white cards decided to be put in the sideboard

Rest of Sideboard
Pernicious Deed: I hate merfolk, goblins and their ilk!!
Pithing needle: Great against the field. Aether vial, survival of the fittest, putrid imp, sensei's stalling top.

[EssKay]

I have to say I just don't think this combo is strong enough to center a deck around. So many prominent decks either run a bounce effect, Path, or wasteland that poor Marit Lage just isn't a guaranteed win. The more combo protection you run, the slower and clunkier it gets. As I said before I'm running it in a Deadguy shell, and it's doing fairly well. Here's the list:

4 Vampire Hexmage
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Tombstalker
4 Dark Confidant

4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Vindicate
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
8 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Dark Depths

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Extirpate
3 ??

Most of the choices are pretty obvious. I'm considering cutting 1 Tombstalker for the 4th Nighthawk, since multiple Tombstalkers can be hard to get into play, but on the other hand I absolutely want to see at least one every game, whether I draw into the combo or not. The curve is really low, and with Bob/Top/Ritual it can get away with running very few mana sources. I think the strength of a build like this is that it can play like normal Deadguy and just disrupt/beat, or randomly draw into the combo and win on turn 3-4. I've actually found that against control-heavy decks like countertop and thresh, it's best to board out most or all of the combo in favor of Extirpates and Leylines.

The remaining sideboard slots used to be Krosan Grips when I splashed green, and I'm not sure what would go best right there. I'm thinking some kind of hate for combo, maybe Trinispheres or Thorn of Amethyst?

[Deadelvis]

If you're running Living Wish and Grim Discovery, then you probably don't need 3x of either of the combo pieces. I would cut it to one or two of each, maybe throw in Crop Rotation for some extra tutoring/utility.

Also Faerie Macabre seems bad here. If you're going to go Rock style with it, might as well have Knight of the Reliquary, since she's usually huge and can also help you dig up your combo.



Funny, cause if I agree I'd love to see one slot or two for knight of the reliquary, I certainly wouldn't think Faerie Macabre is bad in legacy. In this deck, it can be tutored thanks to the wishes, can be made recursive and the cards directly affects one of the most precious ressources in legacy : the opponent's graveyard.

Also, you can sometimes make it a flying 2/2.

The cards definitely seemed strong against a lot of decks in my playtests. Strong against ichorid (of course), against ant, against rock, against bant (knight of the reliquary can shrink quickly). Useful against BR goblins, burn (yep, can prevent them from reaching threshold : made me win once or twice).

[EssKay]

Funny, cause if I agree I'd love to see one slot or two for knight of the reliquary, I certainly wouldn't think Faerie Macabre is bad in legacy. In this deck, it can be tutored thanks to the wishes, can be made recursive and the cards directly affects one of the most precious ressources in legacy : the opponent's graveyard.

Also, you can sometimes make it a flying 2/2.

The cards definitely seemed strong against a lot of decks in my playtests. Strong against ichorid (of course), against ant, against rock, against bant (knight of the reliquary can shrink quickly). Useful against BR goblins, burn (yep, can prevent them from reaching threshold : made me win once or twice).

Meh...Leyline of the Void is about 1000x more effective against all those decks if you can make room in the SB for it. Taking 8-10 cards out of the yard isn't going to be much more than a speed bump for any of those, but Leyline is almost game over for Ichorid and Aggro Loam, and a serious pain for Thresh and some AnT builds too. That's why it's basically a given 4-of in any Black sideboard.

[Deadelvis]

Meh...Leyline of the Void is about 1000x more effective against all those decks if you can make room in the SB for it. Taking 8-10 cards out of the yard isn't going to be much more than a speed bump for any of those, but Leyline is almost game over for Ichorid and Aggro Loam, and a serious pain for Thresh and some AnT builds too. That's why it's basically a given 4-of in any Black sideboard.

I tend to disagree. Sure Leyline is a very strong answer, but it is not any better than faerie macabre if you don't have it very early. And ichorid can answer leyline, when it can't answer faerie macabre. Depriving ichorid from two of its dredge cards at the beginning of the game can stop the deck for quite a long time. Especially since you also attack ichorid's mana base of another side. Leyline is overkill in this context : what do I care about cards like careful study once they're in ichorid's graveyard ?

In my opinion, leyline is easier to play and a good answer when you don't want to think about what to do. But faerie is trickier, can act by surprise and is harder to counter. Even if I agree : it is less potent. But is this potency useful ? Especially when we deal with a deck full of wishes and grim discoveries.



Sidenote : it could seem I'm arguing for the sake of it. I'm not, I just think a good discussion can make me discover/understand new things.

[ktkenshinx]

I tend to disagree. Sure Leyline is a very strong answer, but it is not any better than faerie macabre if you don't have it very early.

Depriving ichorid from two of its dredge cards at the beginning of the game can stop the deck for quite a long time.
You contradict yourself. You claim that Macabre is most powerful early in the game when you can deprive Ichorid of some of its dredgers. This seems reasonable. After all, no one is contesting that Macabre is going to do much of anything around turn 3 when the Ichorid player is already dredging up a storm.
The problem is, you also say that you need Leyline "very early" for it to make a difference. Did you not also need Macabre to fight Ichorid at the "beginning of the game"? Remember that Dredge will start dredging on turn 2 in most cases. That means that Macabre is needed to kill an early Dredger on turn 1 or 2. After that, as we saw before, it becomes extremely useless in stopping the deck from dredging away. But are not turn 1 and 2 also "Very early", the same window of time in which you needed Leyline?

By your logic, Leyline is bad because you need it on turn 1. But Macabre is good because it can stop turn 1 and 2 dredgers. This makes no sense. Both are needed on turn 1, although admittedly you could get away with having an extra turn to draw Macabre. Thus, the fact that you need Leyline "early" is not a reason to exclude it; you also need Macabre "Early", otherwise it is ineffective to stop their dredging tricks.

And ichorid can answer leyline, when it can't answer faerie macabre. Especially since you also attack ichorid's mana base of another side. Leyline is overkill in this context : what do I care about cards like careful study once they're in ichorid's graveyard ?
Leyline is the reason that Ichorid decks run Chain of Vapor. Do you see any similar sideboard choices made for Macabre? Any rogue stifles in sideboards, or trickbinds? If Dredge players have a sideboard card dedicated to stopping just Leyline (and other things too, but its primary use is definitely Leyline), then we should oblige their fears and include the dreaded card. Remember, a lot of cards in Dredge's deck are dangerous in the yard.
1. Narcomoeba
2. Bridge from Below
3. Dread Return
4. Cabal Therapy
5. All dredgers (10 of them in most builds, as many as 14 in others)
6. Ichorid
7. Bloodghast
That is way more than just a Careful Study.

In my opinion, leyline is easier to play and a good answer when you don't want to think about what to do. But faerie is trickier, can act by surprise and is harder to counter. Even if I agree : it is less potent. But is this potency useful ? Especially when we deal with a deck full of wishes and grim discoveries.
You agreed it was less potent. You must also now agree that Leyline's requisite "earliness" is no longer a factor. We have also seen that Leyline kills REDUNDANT threats in Dredge. Finally, we have seen that Leyline is so threatening that Dredge has a card in the sideboard more or less dedicated to stopping it. These appear to be compelling reasons to include the card.

I do not think you are arguing for the sake of argument. As David Hume says, Truth springs from Argument amongst Friends. While we may not all be friends on this forum, we are at least partners and collaborators, and truth in those collaborations should definitely spring from argument. This is an intelligent argument to have, even though I find strong reasons to suggest that Leyline is stronger than Macabre.

-ktkenshinx

[Deadelvis]

You contradict yourself. You claim that Macabre is most powerful early in the game when you can deprive Ichorid of some of its dredgers. This seems reasonable. After all, no one is contesting that Macabre is going to do much of anything around turn 3 when the Ichorid player is already dredging up a storm.
The problem is, you also say that you need Leyline "very early" for it to make a difference. Did you not also need Macabre to fight Ichorid at the "beginning of the game"? Remember that Dredge will start dredging on turn 2 in most cases. That means that Macabre is needed to kill an early Dredger on turn 1 or 2. After that, as we saw before, it becomes extremely useless in stopping the deck from dredging away. But are not turn 1 and 2 also "Very early", the same window of time in which you needed Leyline?

By your logic, Leyline is bad because you need it on turn 1. But Macabre is good because it can stop turn 1 and 2 dredgers. This makes no sense. Both are needed on turn 1, although admittedly you could get away with having an extra turn to draw Macabre. Thus, the fact that you need Leyline "early" is not a reason to exclude it; you also need Macabre "Early", otherwise it is ineffective to stop their dredging tricks.



I think I was not clear enough : I'm not saying Leyline is bad. It is good (as you say, when everybody plays or fears it, there's a reason). However, the main difference I see between it and Faerie macabre is that if you don't have it in your beginning hand, you have to wait at least till the 4th turn to play it. At least. It is generally to late to counter ichorid by that time if you have not disrupted it before.

Faerie macabre can also be played at instant speed. Which means you can actually play it targetting the target for dread return (unless I am totally mistaken) and therefore cancel the play of ichorid at critical times.


I also think the card should not be appraised outside of the context of my proposed deck. Sure, leyline would work for the reasons you gave. But Faerie macabre can be tutored for and made slightly recurrent too. Which means I don't see it as a "4 of", but a recursive "6 or 7 of" (depending on the number of wishes played). As I asked, is it necessary to exile all the graveyard of ichorid or can't surgical strikes be enough to stop it ?

[EssKay]

Graveyard hate still belongs in the sideboard though. Maindeck would probably be better served by something more generally useful, like KotR or Tombstalker or something.

[FoolofaTook]

A friend runs a B/G version, it's slightly different, it's based more off cabal therapy/bloodghast, smallpox, sinkhole, goyf (sorta backup win condition at times), and wishes. I tried playing it with several decks, It's shocking 'cause it just sounds like "there's no way I'm gonna lose" but it really is very very tough to stop, he has so many ways to get the victory it's harder than it looks lol.

The high intensity aggro versions with thoughtseize, therapy, small pox, sinkhole or hymn, innocent blood, bloodghast, hexmage/depths, gatekeeper, nighthawk and nocturnus are very explosive at times and can absolutely run over decks that don't see them coming. I haven't been able to make the mono-black one consistent enough at this point to think it will ever be tier 1 but there's nothing it runs into that it can't absolutely dismantle with the right draw, including dredge - and that's main deck before boarding. It's like a home run or a strikeout though.

[Judge_Julez]

@FoolofaTook
I was building up a mono-black version myself, but realised it just wouldnt cut it, so the options really only are UB or BGW

=========

@TygerClaw and @Deadelvis
Good decklists, guys. really good.

My take ...

I would personally cut back on the number of Windswept Heaths; and don't forget to include at least ONE Murmuring Bosk in the build. The times that you wont have a T1 play, and can go fetch it, is more than you might think.

Use of Riftstone Portal + Mox Diamond / Crop Rotation = Excellent!
How about a couple of Flagstones of Trokair in there ? No ? No Space ?

I love the ''Living Wish'' to pad out the creatures fetch (eg to make it 7 Hexmages). In my meta I would personally add 1x Kataki (against Legacy Affinity) and 1x Children of Korlis (against Tendrils and Burn) in that board package.

Thanks for including lots of options to consider....

I would have preferred an ''in-deck'' tutor to go and get some of the 2cc guys, like Gaddock Teeg and the like, but the ONLY one in non-blue (Muddle) would be SHRED MEMORY. Which I *could* actually run, considering my meta is DREDGE, THRESHOLD, LOAM and Zoo (ignore the last one); ... and which makes a good tutor for various 2cc spells on top of the creatures. eg 1x RITE of CONSUMPTION, 1x NULL ROD, 1x OVERSOLD CEMETARY, 1x LIGHTNING GREAVES etc...

I would also SERIOUSLY consider 3x Shriekmaw maindeck and one s/b (for my meta, again); as there is Zoo and Rock decks with plenty of targets; and I think the synergy with GRIM DISCOVERY is p.d.hot
... taking the 3 Shriekmaw out against [Affinity] and [Combo] decks for extra discard/disruption is not really a problem; it'd be worth having them to start with in the maindeck for the majority of matchups.

I would have access to 3 Null Rod and 3 Cabal Therapy in the board for sure....

...anyway, Ive put some ideas there. Obv too much to cram into the deck, but I thought I'd show all options rather than some. I'll give my opinion of some of the differences between the 2 lists ...

re: Grim Discovery over Tortured Existence
I agree that increasing the 'Loam' factor with Grim Discovery is a house, and is def. fast enough for Legacy. So that's a no-brainer. Got to include this, as getting up to 8 Loam effects is def. Legacy Standard

re: use of Swords to Plowshares
You *NEED* the 4 'swords' in for the matchups against mono-red / straight burn. I used to use Swords on my own Phyrexian Dreadnoughts, so gaining 20 life of Cthlulu (poss. after he attacks) is p.d.hot; and is gonna make it a real headache for the red guy to win through 40 life. (Do another 20 again and watch him cry...)

re: Faerie Macabre
I dunno what the backlash is against this guy is - but Legacy is so graveyard orientated in my area, he's a house IMO

===

... apologies I havent got round to making my own list yet, but I will post it once Ive got it built & tested, as our Legacy Trials are on 10th and 17th January. Thanks for your first lists, they do look stronger than the UB versions IMO.

-JJ-

[Mr. Durden]

Looking at a the Hexmage Depths decks on dechcheck, it seems that the removal options are quite varied. Ghastly demise, putrefy, deed, snuff out, edict, smallpox, and I would even throw smother into the fray here. What do people think is best? In particular, in a list running Bob.

[FoolofaTook]

Looking at a the Hexmage Depths decks on dechcheck, it seems that the removal options are quite varied. Ghastly demise, putrefy, deed, snuff out, edict, smallpox, and I would even throw smother into the fray here. What do people think is best? In particular, in a list running Bob.

Innocent Blood is very good in the deck. It gets around Shroud and Protection and you can cast it turn 1 to ditch a Goblin Lackey or Noble Hierarch. It also casts after a probing Thoughtseize or Duress on turn 2.

[Judge_Julez]

Looking at a the Hexmage Depths decks on dechcheck, it seems that the removal options are quite varied. Ghastly demise, putrefy, deed, snuff out, edict, smallpox, and I would even throw smother into the fray here. What do people think is best? In particular, in a list running Bob.

It's between Innocent Blood and Snuff Out; even with Bob in the deck, the builds with 2 Snuff Out are critical to get past Counterbalance

===

# UPDATE #

I am just brainstorming the GWB Rock build and the UB build of the deck.

They are pretty much both separate beasts, AND are both very good actually

Its pretty much looking like the Rock version would have to be a creature heavy deck with recursion support; (let the creatures do the talking);

...and the UB build has to remain control deck

Control options would be Land Destruction, Discard or Lock

lock pieces I have found so far are ...

CHALICEs on 0 and 1 (cute!)
Counterbalance/Top ... (nuff said)
Leyline of the Void + Web of Inertia (against a creature heavy field)
2x Tezzeret + 1x Ensnaring Bridge (against a creature heavy field)

If you elect to run Bob and Trinket Mage, then you might as well go the whole hog with the Wizards creature archetype and add in the Sword/Thopter combo, as well as 2 Tezzerets and also run a single COAT of ARMS for Tezz to fetch and create a surprise Wizard Attack LOL

Land Destruction would be 3 Wasteland, 4 Sinkhole and recur the Wasteland with Grim Discovery. You can afford to run a single CRUCIBLE if you are building a Tezz version of the deck.

I still firmly believe that neither version of the deck requires a 1cc spell (yes I know how good Cabal Therapy, Thoughtseize, Ponder, Brainstorm et al are), and would be much much stronger with 3-4 Chalices in and run only 2cc spells and higher. This way the disruption to an opposing Legacy Player would be pretty devastating, especially if you elect to run the 'LD' version of the deck and you are denying them any sort of search cantrip ;-)

# Aggro options #
You can run 4 Dark Ritual over land recursion. You can also go for 4x Rite of Consumption to throw a 20/20 at their head. Note that you also have priority on this transaction; so at no point would they be able to SWORDS old Cthulu. *he heh!*
* Rite would be tutorable too * (nice!)
If you are committed to out-and-out T1 kills, then I also suggest filling out the combo with 4 Wall of Blood - as this gives you another creature to throw at their head, although this one can be responded to :(

# update on Faerie Macabre #
he get's discarded, not removed; so he combo's with Grim Discovery. [T2] play fetchland or activate wasteland, faerie to remove cards vs Thresh/Dredge; use Grim to get back land and Faerie, discard to remove 3rd and 4th cards.

If anyone thinks that [T2] or [T3] play isnt strong against many Legacy archetypes (execpt aggro) then you need to think what Legacy metagames ARE

...back soon

[TnA_Will]

Hexmage Depths:

Mana: 23
3 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

Creatures: 9
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Spells: 34
3 Bitterblossom
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Living Wish
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Living wish

What can I Change?

I have a friend that has looked pretty hard at the hexmage depths combo and shells. I do think your on to something with a b/g shell (he likes mono black himself).

I would take out the blue and go more just b/g especially with the Sinkhole and thoughtseize already there!(b/g suicide type of skeleton). I could see FoW, Daze, BitterBlossom, Standstill, and Brainstorm leaving for things like Bob, Grim Discovery, Dark Rit, Hymm to Torach, Snuff outs, and Prenacious Deeds.

List would be something like
Mana:22
3x Wasteland
3x Dark Depths
4x Bayou
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Polluted Delta
5x Swamps
2x Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth

Creatures 12
2x Tombstalker
3x Tarmogoyph
3x Vampire Hexmage
4x Dark Confidant

Spells 26
4x Thoughtseize
4x Dark Rituals
3x Grim Discovery
4x Hymm to Torach
4x Sinkholes
4x Snuff Out
3x Prenacious Deeds

With that list you have 5 fetches to fill yard early for stalker, you have card drawing with confidant and hand removal with seizes and torachs... I think that would be a base of a good skeleton to playtest with and see where it would go.

[EssKay]

I have a friend that has looked pretty hard at the hexmage depths combo and shells. I do think your on to something with a b/g shell (he likes mono black himself).

I would take out the blue and go more just b/g especially with the Sinkhole and thoughtseize already there!(b/g suicide type of skeleton). I could see FoW, Daze, BitterBlossom, Standstill, and Brainstorm leaving for things like Bob, Grim Discovery, Dark Rit, Hymm to Torach, Snuff outs, and Prenacious Deeds.

List would be something like
Mana:22
3x Wasteland
3x Dark Depths
4x Bayou
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Polluted Delta
5x Swamps
2x Urborg Tomb of Yawgmoth

Creatures 12
2x Tombstalker
3x Tarmogoyph
3x Vampire Hexmage
4x Dark Confidant

Spells 26
4x Thoughtseize
4x Dark Rituals
3x Grim Discovery
4x Hymm to Torach
4x Sinkholes
4x Snuff Out
3x Prenacious Deeds

With that list you have 5 fetches to fill yard early for stalker, you have card drawing with confidant and hand removal with seizes and torachs... I think that would be a base of a good skeleton to playtest with and see where it would go.

I think finding room for the combo in a proven shell is definitely the way to go. I like that list a lot, except for Grim Discovery. I know it seems perfect for the deck, but in play I feel like it's often too conditional, and doesn't play well with Tombstalker. I would replace it with one more Tombstalker and 2 Tops, or 2 Jittes. Also, you might want to think about Gatekeeper instead of Snuff out, but they each have their advantages.

This thread has really gone all over the place recently, but I think an aggro/disruption shell that can win even without the combo is the best way to go. I think we need to look at Eva Green, Deadguy, Sui Black, and maybe Pox and see how the combo works with each.

[Judge_Julez]

Dark Depths Rock - (BGw 'Rock' template)

// Lands [23]
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Murmuring Bosk
3 Riftstone Portal
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Volrath’s stronghold
3 Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 Dark Depths

4 Mox Diamond

// Creatures [16]
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
4 [RAV] Dark Confident
2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
2 [LOR] Shriekmaw

// Spells [17]
4 [ZEN] Grim Discovery
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [ICE] Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach (HD) // 4 Sinkhole (LD)
2 [SHA] Raven's Crime (HD) // 2 Nether Void (LD)

=== SIDEBOARD =================
3 [MIR] Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Root Maze
4 Leyline of the Void / Shred Memory / Pernicious Deed

[Judge_Julez]

Dark Depths Rock - (BGw 'Rock' template)
version 2.0 - Living Wish / dominant

Maindeck:

Creatures [18]
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Quasili Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Terravore
2 Faerie Macabre

Sorceries [10]
4 Living Wish
3 Life from the Loam
3 Grim Discovery

(non-mana) Artifacts [5]
3 Chalice Of The Void ***
2 Engineered Explosives **


// Mana Source (27)

4 Mox Diamond [4]

Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmgoth
2 Riftstone Portal
3 Dark Depths


=== SIDEBOARD =================
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Doran the Seige Tower
1 Terrravore
1 Creakwood Leige
1 Genesis
1 Yixlid Jailer

1 Barren Moor
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Diamond Valley
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmgoth
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Cabal Pit
1 Tabernacle
1 Dark Depths

[Deadelvis]

Judge_Julez :

isn't life from the loam + grim discovery a bit too much ? Running Vindicate would allow you mana denial but would be more polyvalent (I'd take the life out).

Though they're strong drawers, I was never over enthusiastic about the dark confidants in this deck. They kept hurting me in my version. A lot.

Terravores when you could afford easily knights of the reliquary ? Which seems stronger to me...



Chalice can be a good metagame tool. Depends on what is played locally. Diamond Mox + riftstone portal is good. Obviously.


In the side, I've been toying with the idea of diamond valley too. The card can be awesome, but it is sometimes too slow to be efficient (vs burn, most of the times, though, if it connects, this land means game over for red).

What's the point in Urborg ? Why not maze of ith instead ? Or a wasteland, which means one less in main deck. Cabal pit could be a good thing to include too. Nantuko monastery could be good for you too.


Creakwood liege ? Meh, I don't find it that good in fact. Genesis is good, I'll think about including it for lategame fun.