[Worldwake] Set Discussion Thread [Archive] - Page 2

Aggro_zombies

01-19-2010, 12:48 PM

Is it just me or is this set just awful on the whole so far? Compared to the format-reshaping Zendikar, I'm seeing maybe a few marginally playables at best out of what's been spoiled so far.
1) It's a Ken Nagle design.

2) Very little has been spoiled.

3) Zendikar reshaped Standard not so much because it was groundbreaking, but because it forced the rotation of Lorwyn and Shadowmoor. Anything would have been format-reshaping in that case. If you're talking about Legacy, the biggest impact by far has been the addition of enemy fetches, which were needed by very few decks but which did help smooth the mana of those decks they helped. That's hardly format-defining when we already had fetches that saw tons of play.

Nihil Credo

01-19-2010, 12:49 PM

I don't think Omnath is unplayable in Legacy. Sure, he'd need a very specific deck like MGCA or Survival, but the rewards are huge. Worst case scenario you spend lots of mana on him and he gets StP'd. But in MGCA, you run Chalice to protect him, and you could always use some of that mana to flash in Scryb Ranger or Briarhorn.

Read the card again. It only Upwells green mana, and only grows off of green mana. In Chalice Aggro it will be lucky to be an elephant.

More cards:

- Mysteries of the Deep is Grade A trolling.
- Cunning Sparkmage should be quite good in Standard. Vulshok Sorcerer used to see a ton of play in post-Affinity T2, and this format has even more x/1 creatures than that one.
- Ruin Ghost has a cool combo with... uhm, nothing. Apparently 187 effects on lands all suck except for Valakut. It can protect your lands from Wasteland (if you keep W open which sort of defeats the point), or your manlands from removal, but other than that it's pretty much a Deserted Temple on a bad body.
- The Ally deck looks close to becoming viable. Freeblade and Blademaster are solid, and Survivalist and Mirror Entity might just squeeze in. Since there's no third set, one must hope on the 107 cards still remaining from Worldwake.

Aggro_zombies

01-19-2010, 12:53 PM

Read the card again. It only Upwells green mana, and only grows off of green mana. In Chalice Aggro it will be lucky to be an elephant.
This. Chalice [Anything] decks excel at making colorless mana but often have problems making mana of their color, red versions with Blood Moon aside.

TorpidNinja

01-19-2010, 01:06 PM

If you're talking about Legacy, the biggest impact by far has been the addition of enemy fetches, which were needed by very few decks but which did help smooth the mana of those decks they helped. That's hardly format-defining when we already had fetches that saw tons of play.

This. Though, just to be sure, I poured through recent big tourney T8s on Star City. It seems the only impact in main decks have been the inclusion of fetches (mostly Misty Rainforest.) The only other notable impact has been the inclusion of traps in the board.

Kuma

01-19-2010, 01:11 PM

Oops, my bad, I read the card wrong.

Still, I think he could be great in GRB Survival lists with Rofellos, and possibly sick in Elf decks that make ungodly amounts of green mana.

FoolofaTook

01-19-2010, 01:34 PM

Is it just me or is this set just awful on the whole so far? Compared to the format-reshaping Zendikar, I'm seeing maybe a few marginally playables at best out of what's been spoiled so far.

Zendikar is an unbeatable set for Legacy due to the off-color fetches. I can't imagine that we're likely to see a set that strong again for a very long time.

There are definitely cards in the set that will see play in Legacy. It's going to take some time to sort them out but I see cards designed to help many different archetypes in the early spoilers. Lodestone Golem has Stax written all over it because it is in the casting curve, helps the general theme, and is a win con that prevents a quick bolt or plow after the soft lock is put in place. There are others also.

Aggro_zombies

01-19-2010, 02:00 PM

Me too. I really would like a big black (being a demon, hopefully it will be black) evasive beater that doesn't conflict that much with confidant. I hope the drawback wont be too wicked.
Sorry to disappoint you, but it's unplayable even in Limited:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=100395&d=1263927166

Inverted Platinum Angel ability.

caiomarcos

01-19-2010, 02:01 PM

From Mark Rosewater on twitter:

maro254 In #Worldwake, there is a 6/6 demon with flying and trample for four mana. He does have a bit of a wicked drawback though.

I am curious what the drawback is!

There it is:

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/worldwake/Abyssal-Persecutor.jpg

Breakable? If only combat damage was still going to the stack -, attack, stack, sac... too easy!

EDIT: Ninja'ed!

Wrath_Of_Houlding

01-19-2010, 02:02 PM

Can someone post the text? I no can see!

Aggro_zombies

01-19-2010, 02:04 PM

Can someone post the text? I no can see!
Flying, trample

You can't win the game and your opponents can't lose the game.

6/6 for :2::b::b:.

EDIT: And mythic to boot. Can't wait to open, like, fucking five of these in my box.

caiomarcos

01-19-2010, 02:06 PM

Can someone post the text? I no can see!

2BB - 6/6
Flying, trample.
You can't win the game and your opponents can't lose the game.

EDIT: Ninja'ed 2x in 5min!!!

Wrath_Of_Houlding

01-19-2010, 02:06 PM

That's phenomenal (at least for standard). Play it with some Vampire Aristocrats and other sac outlets and it's a beast.

Volrath

01-19-2010, 02:12 PM

Cabal Therapy makes that Demon pretty playable in Loam decks, i think.

Still a cool card though.

Illissius

01-19-2010, 02:19 PM

Yeah, there's no reason you couldn't attack them to -4 life and then sacrifice the guy to Therapy or Phyrexian Tower or whatever. I wouldn't rule it out at all. Couple it with Tombstalker and that's a lot of big-ass flying demons.

Nihil Credo

01-19-2010, 02:23 PM

Breakable? If only combat damage was still going to the stack -, attack, stack, sac... too easy!

Combat damage not stacking isn't a problem. You still reduce their life total to negative values, they just don't die as long as Persecutor is on the table under your control.

This drawback is definitely interesting and looks very breakable.

Innocent Blood, Therapy, Smallpox, Damnation, and that's just mono-black: it seems pretty easy to make a deck that packs enough sacrifice effects to reliably get rid of it, and that doesn't have to play too many bad / non-synergistic stuff. Some Pox lists already play Tombstalker and could play Persecutor.

EDIT: Also Phyrexian Tower (thx Illissius), Gatekeeper of Malakir, Fleshbag Marauder, Diabolic Edict... yeah, killing one of your own guys isn't exactly a problem for Black.

But on further thought, I would say that getting rid of it is not a big problem, simply because it's going to be rather hard for your opponent to kill you without first getting rid of a 6/6 flier blocking his way. Tendrils, lots of burn (or SGC), or Progenitus are the main exceptions. As long as you don't risk getting decked, you should be fine.

Let's try a separate question: assume it had no drawback. What deck would want him? The stats are very good for 2BB, but not good enough that the answer is "everybody who plays Swamps". Would Eva Green play it or would it be too expensive? Would Pox(-Loam) play it or does it not care about vanilla creatures no matter how good? Would CounterTop play it, or were Mystic Enforcer's pro-black and non-double mana cost critical to its career? The only deck which I'd say would 100% play it would be Demon Stompy, where a better 4cc Demon would only fix about 2% of the problems with the deck.

Infinitium

01-19-2010, 02:31 PM

Demon Stompy looks like it will actually have a good namesake around this time, and with cards like Fleshbag Marauders already having good synergy with SoLaS it looks very breakable indeed.

Wrath_Of_Houlding

01-19-2010, 02:35 PM

Combat damage not stacking isn't a problem. You still reduce their life total to negative values, they just don't die as long as Persecutor is on the table under your control.

This drawback is definitely interesting and looks very breakable.

Innocent Blood, Therapy, Smallpox, Damnation, and that's just mono-black: it seems pretty easy to make a deck that packs enough sacrifice effects to reliably get rid of it, and that doesn't have to play too many bad / non-synergistic stuff. Some Pox lists already play Tombstalker and could play Persecutor.

EDIT: Also Phyrexian Tower (thx Illissius), Gatekeeper of Malakir, Fleshbag Marauder, Diabolic Edict... yeah, killing one of your own guys isn't exactly a problem for Black.

But on further thought, I would say that getting rid of it is not a big problem, simply because it's going to be rather hard for your opponent to kill you without first getting rid of a 6/6 flier blocking his way. Tendrils, lots of burn (or SGC), or Progenitus are the main exceptions. As long as you don't risk getting decked, you should be fine.

Let's try a separate question: assume it had no drawback. What deck would want him? The stats are very good for 2BB, but not good enough that the answer is "everybody who plays Swamps". Would Eva Green play it or would it be too expensive? Would Pox(-Loam) play it or does it not care about vanilla creatures no matter how good? Would CounterTop play it, or were Mystic Enforcer's pro-black and non-double mana cost critical to its career? The only deck which I'd say would 100% play it would be Demon Stompy, where a better 4cc Demon would only fix about 2% of the problems with the deck.

What about a Mono-B Stax list? Just control the board with this guy as long as necessary and then sack him for the win.

HdH_Cthulhu

01-19-2010, 02:36 PM

Demonstompy maybe. But the drawback makes the deck a lot more inconsistent.

I think this card is just a very small bit to weak for legacy.
Tombstalker is just better.

Edit: I want to win a game with this guy + donate :)

nitewolf9

01-19-2010, 02:39 PM

This guy, along with Bloodghast and Tombstalker, might actually give pox decks an impressive threat suite. Don't know if it would make that deck good all of a sudden, but I'm sure there is probably a pretty strong build.

Illissius

01-19-2010, 02:45 PM

Don't know if it would make that deck good all of a sudden

Depending on your definition of "good", Pox is already good. Very similar Loam-Pox builds have made T8 at a number of sizeable tournaments recently. However, these decks almost certainly wouldn't play the Persecutor: their win conditions are 1 Worm Harvest, 1 Gigapede.

I want a deck that starts out 4 Tombstalker, 4 Abyssal Persecutor. It probably continues 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Dark Ritual, some Towers. What about the rest? Blossoms, Jittes, Gatekeepers? Hymns, Snuffs? Green for Goyf? Veteran Explorer, Mox Diamond, and Loam stuff? Braids, Bloodghast, Blossom, Contamination?

Another opening for Persecutor is decks which want to play both Dark Confidant and big flying demons. This would force them to run sacrifice outlets as well; not a bad thing with Confidant either, but they don't usually.

Mark Sun

01-19-2010, 02:45 PM

Wow, I'm kind of impressed by the card, to be honest. I did not see an ability like this (although I also mused over the drawbacks that it could have had).

I very much agree that a Stompy/Black Stax variant would love this guy. It's a Grinning Demon with evasion, and if you run a safe amount of sacrifice outlets, this guy is insane. Sadly, not really playable in limited, sigh.

Nihil Credo

01-19-2010, 02:53 PM

Sacrifice outlets (of the for-profit kind) are also quite good with Bitterblossom. Though it's mildly annoying that Bitterblossom threatens to kill you if you can't get rid of the Persecutor fast enough.

Another possible avenue is a B/R list where the plan is to bolt the dude out. Blossom + Stalker + Persecutor is a nice all-flying threat base, if pretty damn slow, and Firespout can stop the more aggro decks. Not ending up with a schizophrenic deck, though, will take a lot of attempts (card drawing yes/no? discard yes/no? spot removal yes/no?).

Fons

01-19-2010, 03:08 PM

Persecutor+Blossum+Contamination?

GGoober

01-19-2010, 03:12 PM

The 6/6 flyer is indeed a very solid card in the right deck. I was just discussing with a friend and reminded me of an old deck that I loved but sucked because it lacked a good creature, i.e. Demon Stompy.

Now, this hits the curve and replaces subpar Grinning Demon etc. The synergies in the deck?

(if you play the following cards)
- Braids
- Smokestack
- Contamination

But what I love about him is with the card: Grafted Wargear. I played this equipment in Demon Stompy and it was a MVP card despite the deck sucking. Making Stinkweed Imp 4/4 deathtouch flying is huge, now we have a beater swinging in on turns 3 or 4 for a 9/8 trample flying. I think the best way to abuse the card is with Cabal Therapy since you cannot respond to the sac cost, and you can't really stifle anything since you lose to static life below zero. However, I think that Demon Stompy might use this as a new candidate, and incorporating this with Grafted Wargear seems to add that punch that the deck was lacking in.

Mark Sun

01-19-2010, 03:12 PM

Persecutor+Blossum+Contamination?

Nice, I like the thought process. Lock down the game, win at your upkeep? He definitely puts the opponent on a 4-turn clock. Transformational sideboard for :b: decks :wink:

FoolofaTook

01-19-2010, 03:15 PM

I don't think it's going to see much play. It's too conditional and the thing you need to have with it, the sac outlets and creature removal, are either weaker or more likely reserved for the opponent's faster creatures.

The cards that Persecutor fits with; Innocent Blood, Smallpox, Bloodghast, Dark Confidant, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Fleshbag Marauder, Cabal Therapy, etc. are mostly weaker on their own. Dark Confidant is wonderful and maybe you could make an argument that Smallpox is very underplayed for its power level, however the other cards on that list scream horrible top deck against the Legacy environment right now.

Even Gatekeeper of Malakir, which a lot of people are trying now, is really not all that strong because it can't touch man-lands and it's stifle-able and it's a 2cc spell that nonetheless costs :b::b::b: and it's smaller than the remaining creature in most cases when it lands against two creatures, you can even make a Mishra's a creature to satisfy the sac requirements and save your Goyf or Stalker or whatever.

Editing to say: probably the biggest reason not to play it is that you'd be better off splashing green and throwing 4 Tarmogoyf in before you added this to a list.

Gheizen64

01-19-2010, 03:24 PM

Mmh, the card is interesting, i'll give you that. The drawback is fascinating . I don't think he'll see a lot of play, but maybe he'll end in a deck with a lot of cabal therapies and smallpoxes, and obviously tombstalker and goyf.

He's also fascinating with a negator, too bad negator sucks now. Another possibility could be "retarded 4 and 5cc monsters.dec", with BSA, ritual and gating effect like kor skyfisher and/or flicker effect like the 1WW 3/1 flyer that flicker a permanent. Also, white give you sword to remove your guy and gain some life. Parallax wave to remove their blocker and then win ... etc. So many design possibilities :D

TorpidNinja

01-19-2010, 03:36 PM

I feel like a lot of those stats were tacked on to justify him not being 3cc. People would be scrambling for this guy if they knocked off trample and P/T so you could Ritual him into play.

Nihil Credo

01-19-2010, 03:44 PM

I feel like a lot of those stats were tacked on to justify him not being 3cc. People would be scrambling for this guy if they knocked off trample and P/T so you could Ritual him into play.
Pretty sure that keeping Suicide Black from dominating the Legacy format isn't something that keeps R&D up at night.

Illissius

01-19-2010, 03:46 PM

He's also fascinating with a negator, too bad negator sucks now. Another possibility could be "retarded 4 and 5cc monsters.dec", with BSA, ritual and gating effect like kor skyfisher and/or flicker effect like the 1WW 3/1 flyer that flicker a permanent. Also, white give you sword to remove your guy and gain some life. Parallax wave to remove their blocker and then win ... etc. So many design possibilities :D

Probably the best way, next to Donate, is to Word of Command them and force them to play Humility.

eternaldarkness

01-19-2010, 04:31 PM

Abyssal Persecutor would be bad against storm combo. Without some instant speed way to sacrifice it, Ad Nauseam + this = scoop.

Forbiddian

01-19-2010, 04:50 PM

Nihil won the thread on Persecutor:

There's no fucking way this will see play. There aren't many decks that even want 2BB for a 6/6 Flying Trample, let alone one with a vicious drawback. It's a cool enough card that people will keep talking about it, and you'll probably win a fair chunk of games from opponents reading it, going, "Oh, lol, you can't win" and then sitting there with a Swords in hand while getting knocked down to 0 life, but it's fundamentally a 6/6 flying trample for 2BB with a bad drawback.

I've got my eyes on allies, but I'm not holding my breath. They need a few Allies that are legacy playable on their own to be worth it (or Wizards needs to print Force of Will in white). But basically they only have two playables now and those aren't even better than Merfolk.

I think Joraga and Omnath will be nice in Elves, but again: that solves none of the real problems of that deck.

Cthuloo

01-19-2010, 05:07 PM

My Bg loam pox deck might definitely want this. I've been waiting for something similar for a long time: it's a huge threat and it's not graveyard dependent (casting stalker under relic/leyline is pretty hard, I can assure you). The deck already packs 4 smallpoxes, 3 innocent blood, 3 maelstom pulses and 3 pernicious deed, so getting rid of it wont be hard at all.

It looks more difficult (although not impossible, I just have to think a bit about it) in a sui black shell, but I definitely like the card and the design process.

About the cards spoiled up to now: I think they're not bad in average, especially compared to most of the Alara block, but we're a bit biased since Zendikar was really awesome for our format (not only for the fetches, but also for Bloodghast, Ioona, Gatekeeper, Nighthawk, some of the traps, the lynx, etc.).

Lothian

01-19-2010, 05:09 PM

Nihil won the thread on Persecutor:

There's no fucking way this will see play. There aren't many decks that even want 2BB for a 6/6 Flying Trample, let alone one with a vicious drawback. It's a cool enough card that people will keep talking about it, and you'll probably win a fair chunk of games from opponents reading it, going, "Oh, lol, you can't win" and then sitting there with a Swords in hand while getting knocked down to 0 life, but it's fundamentally a 6/6 flying trample for 2BB with a bad drawback.

That's a pretty abrupt statement for a 10 hours old card to be said.

This could revive some kind of old RB archetype with the usual discard/blast outlet plus that guy and few goodies

Then you fling your dude once its job is done, since it's unconterable (for the sacrifice)

This card like the new Jace are very well designed. It can reshuffle the priorities of the field, like you are desperate to kill him, while your opponent is desperate to keep it in play. It brings new interaction for casual play, while potentially being competitive.

On the plus still, there won't be many goyfs that can kill that dude

There's a lot to be explored with that card really

Good work WOTC, compared with homelands when I started...

Rizso

01-19-2010, 05:21 PM

The demon is a really interesting card. Thinking of testing a Machine head deck with it.

Forbiddian

01-19-2010, 05:24 PM

This could revive some kind of old RB archetype with the usual discard/blast outlet plus that guy and few goodies

Then you fling your dude once its job is done, since it's unconterable (for the sacrifice)

See, that's exactly Nihil's point: It's fundamentally a 2BB for a 6/6 flying trample that's worse than that because of the strictly-worse drawback.

People are looking at the card's drawback and thinking, "Yeah, lol, you can play around it, there's Fling... Cabal Therapy...." But the upside is almost non-existent. 2BB for a 5/5 Flying wouldn't see much play. 2BB for a 6/6 Flying would see some play, but only in a few select decks, and those decks wouldn't see much increase in play.

The drawback is manageable, but the upside just isn't there to be worth it. You're getting like +1/+1 and trample in exchange for a really stiff drawback.

Gheizen64

01-19-2010, 06:39 PM

Probably the best way, next to Donate, is to Word of Command them and force them to play Humility.

:D

Dude it's a fresh new card, no need to bash it so much lol. But i agree that even without the drawbacks it wouldn't be that stellar of a card. At BBB maybe...

Lothian

01-19-2010, 07:00 PM

:D

Dude it's a fresh new card, no need to bash it so much lol. But i agree that even without the drawbacks it wouldn't be that stellar of a card. At BBB maybe...

Yes, it won't see much play because it's not BBB

But do we really expect to get a 6/6 flying trample potentially coming on turn 1?

It can bring some interesting decisions on the other side of the table. Shall I StP it, steal it?

It's quite a neat design, and get old Lord of the Pit a bit of a bashing

P.S: winning with Lord of the Pit is pretty ultimate though

kicks_422

01-19-2010, 07:12 PM

It'll probably see play just because of how cool it is to bash face with a 6/6 flying, trampling demon. The flavor of having to kill it off before you win is so emo too, for all the Twilighters out there.

Aggro_zombies

01-19-2010, 07:13 PM

This guy would be savage at :b::b: because then it would be better as a clock than Tombstalker (this could always come down turn two whereas Tombstalker usually costs three or four and comes down on turn four in most cases). Getting rid of it is not a big deal, but packing your deck with sacrifice outlets just to dispose of one guy seems weak when you don't draw that one guy but have a ton of mediocre sacrifice outlets in hand.

If it sees play in anything, I would wager it getting played in Pox decks or maybe some sort of weird new Suicide Survival build that could tutor up a Fleshbag on demand. The problems with either approach are that you have to be careful about playing into your opponent's counterspells and the fact that this demon is infinitely worse against storm than Tombstalker, especially if you tap out to play it and don't have a Phyrexian Ghoul/Nantuko Husk in play to feed it to in response to a "draw my deck" Ad Nauseum.

EDIT:

The flavor of having to kill it off before you win is so emo too, for all the Twilighters out there.
STOP THAT. This joke is now so old and tired it hurts.

Sevryn

01-19-2010, 07:19 PM

This guy would be savage at :b::b: because then it would be better as a clock than Tombstalker (this could always come down turn two whereas Tombstalker usually costs three or four and comes down on turn four in most cases). Getting rid of it is not a big deal, but packing your deck with sacrifice outlets just to dispose of one guy seems weak when you don't draw that one guy but have a ton of mediocre sacrifice outlets in hand.

If it sees play in anything, I would wager it getting played in Pox decks or maybe some sort of weird new Suicide Survival build that could tutor up a Fleshbag on demand. The problems with either approach are that you have to be careful about playing into your opponent's counterspells and the fact that this demon is infinitely worse against storm than Tombstalker, especially if you tap out to play it and don't have a Phyrexian Ghoul/Nantuko Husk in play to feed it to in response to a "draw my deck" Ad Nauseum.

Persecutor plays a little bit nicer with Dark Ritual, and will be able to hit play turn 2 a lot more often than Tombstalker will. But yes, he will really only find a home in Pox decks (running Smallpox, Pox, and Innocent Blood). And yes, it is stupid bad against ANT.

P.S. I lost to you in Dallas by not mulliganing a hand with no Enchantresses : ).

Aggro_zombies

01-19-2010, 07:21 PM

Persecutor plays a little bit nicer with Dark Ritual, and will be able to hit play turn 2 a lot more often than Tombstalker will. But yes, he will really only find a home in Pox decks (running Smallpox, Pox, and Innocent Blood). And yes, it is stupid bad against ANT.

P.S. I lost to you in Dallas by not mulliganing a hand with no Enchantresses : ).
YOU WERE THAT GUY!

Well, in retrospect it might have been a good idea. I was hitting you pretty hard with land destruction and two 5/6 Tarmogoyfs is kind of ridiculous no matter how you look at it. The EE was a lucky rip too. I'd figure you're favored in that matchup by at least 60%.

EDIT: The answer to what to do with the new demon is obviously to run it alongside Lord of the Pit. Feeding one demon to another is so awesome from a flavor perspective, especially when the other guy is Lord of the Pit.

Alpha Lord of the Pits look sick as hell, too.

Sevryn

01-19-2010, 07:24 PM

YOU WERE THAT GUY!

Well, in retrospect it might have been a good idea. I was hitting you pretty hard with land destruction and two 5/6 Tarmogoyfs is kind of ridiculous no matter how you look at it. The EE was a lucky rip too. I'd figure you're favored in that matchup by at least 60%.

Well if I had known you were only running 2 DD I wouldn't have kept that hand, but I figured that turn 2 Sacred Ground on the play would be some good at least. My topdecks were terrible that game, and I realized that I played the last combat step wrong. Should have made one pony, passed priority, and then iyou'd have to blow the EE and I could make another pony and block 1 goyf and go to 2 life or so, and maybe live another turn. The things we realize the day after.

arebennian

01-20-2010, 03:25 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=214298

Vampire Legend (Meh) and Vampire Kill Spell (TM).

eq.firemind

01-20-2010, 03:27 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=214298

Vampire Legend (Meh) and Vampire Kill Spell (TM).

I have no access to mtgsalvation from work, could someone please post the cards here (I guess everyone should do that, but, well, people are lazy by nature :smile:)?

Mark Sun

01-20-2010, 03:36 AM

I have no access to mtgsalvation from work, could you please post the cards here (I guess everyone should do that, but, well, people are lazy by nature :smile:)?

Anowon, the Ruin Sage 3BB, 4/3
Legendary Creature - Vampire Shaman
At the beginning of your upkeep, each player sacrifices a non-Vampire creature.

Urge to Feed BB, Instant
Target creature gets -3/-3 until EoT, you may tap any number of untapped Vampires you control. If you do, put a +1/+1 counter on each of those Vampires.

Cthuloo

01-20-2010, 03:56 AM

Anowon, the Ruin Sage 3BB, 4/3
Legendary Creature - Vampire Shaman
At the beginning of your upkeep, each player sacrifices a non-Vampire creature.

Definitely better than Magus of the Abyss, even outside a vampire tribal deck.

Bigface

01-20-2010, 05:33 AM

As for the Vampire cards, Urge to Feed could be played in T2 Vampires as well as Anowon, but I think they won't be played outside Standard.

What about Chain Reaction? I haven't found discussions about it.

Chain Reaction
2RR
Rare
Sorcery
Chain Reaction deals X damage to each creature, where X is the number of creatures on the battlefield.

I know it's slow as hell, but IMHO it could have potential. Against decks like Goblins, it's a red Wrath of God.

eq.firemind

01-20-2010, 05:38 AM

Chain Reaction
2RR
Rare
Sorcery
Chain Reaction deals X damage to each creature, where X is the number of creatures on the battlefield.
I can't imagine why play this over Firespout.

Eksem

01-20-2010, 05:41 AM

Mark Sun

01-20-2010, 07:25 AM

Definitely better than Magus of the Abyss, even outside a vampire tribal deck.

I feel like WoTC is starting to push Vampires a lot, but we still haven't seen a true "Lord" type card, the one of the :1::b::b: variety that there's one of for a lot of tribal. Then again, god knows what the bonus would be. But Nocturnus, at least to me, feels like something temporary until such a lord get printed.

Btw, SCG is starting to sell Abyssal Persecutors at $19.99, I wonder how the price progression will go as testing comes along. Certainly plenty of sacrifice outlets in T2 (and obviously 1.5). Jace 2.0 is starting at $24.99 :eek:

SilverGreen

01-20-2010, 08:47 AM

What about a Mono-B Stax list?AAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHH!!!! Again! The damnedstaxshellcurse again!!!

Fons

01-20-2010, 08:55 AM

the 13/13 has been spoiled

B
creature gets -x -x where x is your life total
13/13

Mark Sun

01-20-2010, 08:59 AM

the 13/13 has been spoiled

B
creature gets -x -x where x is your life total
13/13

They're still questioning this on MTGSalvation, which is where I'm assuming you got this information from. The mechanic, true or not, is speculation at the moment.

FoolofaTook

01-20-2010, 10:52 AM

I feel like WoTC is starting to push Vampires a lot, but we still haven't seen a true "Lord" type card, the one of the :1::b::b: variety that there's one of for a lot of tribal. Then again, god knows what the bonus would be. But Nocturnus, at least to me, feels like something temporary until such a lord get printed.

Yes, WotC is trying very hard to get Vampires up to a competitive level as a tribe. The thing that's different about them so far is that they're starting to look like a pure control tribe with Lifelink and removal, as opposed to the aggro control of Goblins and Merfolk and the pure aggro of Elves.

Geet

01-20-2010, 11:06 AM

the 13/13 has been spoiled

B
creature gets -x -x where x is your life total
13/13

Out of curiosity, if this was the final wording, what would happen if you had a negative life total (say, Platinum Angel is in play)? Would this dude actually grow bigger than 13/13?

If so, I'm totally building a deck around it for the noob room on MTGO.

sunshine

01-20-2010, 11:10 AM

Out of curiosity, if this was the final wording, what would happen if you had a negative life total (say, Platinum Angel is in play)? Would this dude actually grow bigger than 13/13?

If so, I'm totally building a deck around it for the noob room on MTGO.

I'm guessing yes, since your life total keeps track of negatives rather than bottoming out at zero.

Just make sure you have a third creature kicking around before casting that Innocent Blood :cry: .

Fons

01-20-2010, 11:43 AM

I'm guessing yes, since your life total keeps track of negatives rather than bottoming out at zero.

Just make sure you have a third creature kicking around before casting that Innocent Blood :cry: .

This has already been discussed, he will not get bigger than 13/13. While the game keeps track of negative life totals they are seen as zero.

Cire

01-20-2010, 03:13 PM

Terra Eternal 2W
Enchantment
All lands are indestructible

Lol, sounds good with manlands, genjus and Zendikon

Bigface

01-20-2010, 03:20 PM

Better than Sacred Grounds. Still, Grounds doesn't see that much play. Could be played in Landstill and as SB card against Aggro-Loam and White Stax.

Nonex

01-20-2010, 03:39 PM

Sacred Ground is still better. Less mana, one-sided, and takes care of Devastating Dreams. Terra Eternal is better only when you don't want your manlands to die in combat.

Fons

01-20-2010, 04:19 PM

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/worldwake/yjnvuovfoe_EN.jpg

Aggro_zombies

01-20-2010, 04:22 PM

Why does it have to be two mana? :cry:

Wrath_Of_Houlding

01-20-2010, 04:23 PM

What was posted? I don't see anything.

Tacosnape

01-20-2010, 04:27 PM

Terra Eternal is better only when you don't want your manlands to die in combat.

Which isn't to be underrated.

So with there being easily anywhere from 12-16 playable manlands, how hard would it be to make a GW Loam deck that ditches Wasteland engines in favor of some combination of Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Nantuko Monestary, and whatever the new GW Manlandual is?

Aggro_zombies

01-20-2010, 04:29 PM

What was posted? I don't see anything.
Explore
:1::g:
You may play an additional land this turn.
Draw a card.
Sorcery

So with there being easily anywhere from 12-16 playable manlands, how hard would it be to make a GW Loam deck that ditches Wasteland engines in favor of some combination of Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, Nantuko Monestary, and whatever the new GW Manlandual is?
Why would you want to do that, though? Wasteland wins games and acts as disruption, something green-white decks typically lack. The manland plan is also much slower than the Tarmogoyf-Qasali Pridemage plan even if those lands are indestructible (and they can still get removed with Swords or Path).

Tacosnape

01-20-2010, 04:51 PM

Why would you want to do that, though? Wasteland wins games and acts as disruption, something green-white decks typically lack. The manland plan is also much slower than the Tarmogoyf-Qasali Pridemage plan even if those lands are indestructible (and they can still get removed with Swords or Path).

Well, I envisioned this in a Chalice shell of sorts, so there's some disruption. Haven't really thought too deeply about it, just pitching it off the top of my head. So run both and/or Knight of the Reliquary. Additionally, you get the bonus of actually hurting their Wastelands further.

Barook

01-20-2010, 05:55 PM

Two mana blows, but Explore could still end up being playable in the right deck.

n00bas4urus_r3x

01-20-2010, 06:16 PM

Explore plays very well with Lotus Cobra. Some pretty solid cards so far to play in my block league, so I'm excited. New vamps and instant speed allies seem really strong.

Gheizen64

01-20-2010, 06:36 PM

Consistently worse than rampanth growth. Getting the land untapped doesn't offset the fact you can't use it to ramp reliably. This card's bad.

Barook

01-20-2010, 07:22 PM

Rampanth Growth doesn't work with non-basics and can't cantrip late-game when mana is less of a concern.

Morim_Brightsmoke

01-20-2010, 08:44 PM

Terra Eternal is better only when you don't want your manlands to die in combat.

But it is worse when there is a smokestack on the table, or you play wastelands.

Nonex

01-20-2010, 09:25 PM

That's why I defend Sacred Ground over Terra Eternal. My whole post was:

Sacred Ground is still better. Less mana, one-sided, and takes care of Devastating Dreams. Terra Eternal is better only when you don't want your manlands to die in combat.

But regarding your second example, I don't see why you would play Wastelands and a card that nullifies them in the same deck.

Illissius

01-20-2010, 10:11 PM

They finally printed Explore! Such an obvious idea. Apparently it would've been borken at :g:. Too bad.

ktkenshinx

01-20-2010, 10:48 PM

Dispel U
Instant
Common
Counter target instant spell
Card 26/145

If this is true, this is an amazing card. Spectacular countermagic in the format. Stops all of the counterspells, most removal, most sideboard cards, etc. Dredge and Reanimator should find this card particularly awesome, even if only in the sideboard.

-ktkenshinx-

Volt

01-20-2010, 11:29 PM

AngryTroll

01-20-2010, 11:30 PM

Dispel U
Instant
Common
Counter target instant spell
Card 26/145

Wow. Between Dispel, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, and Negate, there's a LOT of really good cheap countermagic. I hope this guy has awesome art (like Spell Pierce did).

BreathWeapon

01-21-2010, 12:44 AM

Wow. Between Dispel, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, and Negate, there's a LOT of really good cheap countermagic. I hope this guy has awesome art (like Spell Pierce did).

Dispel is "meh" in Legacy and great in Vintage, I think in Legacy we've hit our wall for 1cc counters, but Spellsnare isn't spectacular in Vintage and Spell Pierce is MD there as well so Dispel is applicable to that format.

morgan_coke

01-21-2010, 12:51 AM

Aggro_zombies

01-21-2010, 12:59 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=100482&d=1264050308

I ran through all the creature types on Gatherer. The most playable creature with one of the relevant types is Simic Sky Swallower. Inkwell Leviathan is also available.

Some of the less awesome but timmy splashy options are: Denizen of the Deep, Polar Kraken, Tidal Kraken, Eater of Days, Grozoth, and Nemesis of Reason. And of course, any and all Changelings.

Interesting card. Wonder if its a cycle and maybe the other ones have relevant creature types?

EDIT: that link was supposed to be an image, but I fail at the internet apparently.
It's a cycle with Quest for the Nihil Stone.

It's also unplayable Timmy fodder, but that's another issue entirely.

MMogg

01-21-2010, 02:29 AM

Explore plays very well with Lotus Cobra. Some pretty solid cards so far to play in my block league, so I'm excited. New vamps and instant speed allies seem really strong.

I'm waiting for the Lin-Sivvy of Allies to make them playable.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

01-21-2010, 02:56 AM

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/worldwake/yjnvuovfoe_EN.jpg

This card is fantastic. This is actually almost the exact same as a card I had posted on the "What cards do you want them to print for Eternal" thread, although I had wanted it slightly better at G and putting the land into play tapped.

Still, it's a very interesting card to think about in control, where you want to accelerated/dig into your board clearers and big splashy spells. It's definitely worth testing.

Broham

01-21-2010, 03:04 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=100482&d=1264050308

I ran through all the creature types on Gatherer. The most playable creature with one of the relevant types is Simic Sky Swallower. Inkwell Leviathan is also available.

Some of the less awesome but timmy splashy options are: Denizen of the Deep, Polar Kraken, Tidal Kraken, Eater of Days, Grozoth, and Nemesis of Reason. And of course, any and all Changelings.

Interesting card. Wonder if its a cycle and maybe the other ones have relevant creature types?

EDIT: that link was supposed to be an image, but I fail at the internet apparently.

I think Quest of Ula's Temple has tons of potential. You could play a mono-U deck with a ridiculous amount of permission while your threats funnel through a one mana investment. I have friends that don't like it, and maybe I can be a bit of Timmy sometimes, but I would not write this off too quickly.

Also, the nod to H.P. Lovecraft is win.

Valdez

01-21-2010, 04:44 AM

Dispel U
Instant
Common
Counter target instant spell
Card 26/145

Cool. I've been waiting for this card to be printed for a long time.
#

unerarth team america. :)

DrJones

01-21-2010, 05:57 AM

I think Quest of Ula's Temple has tons of potential. You could play a mono-U deck with a ridiculous amount of permission while your threats funnel through a one mana investment. I have friends that don't like it, and maybe I can be a bit of Timmy sometimes, but I would not write this off too quickly.

Also, the nod to H.P. Lovecraft is win.If you have a ridiculous amount of permission, you won't have enough creatures to put counters on the Quest. Actually, serpents are the absolute worst tribe in Magic, so I liked at first that they were going to print "support" for them. Then I realized that the 4 Aether Vial I threw in the decklist as a joke are actually better than this card, which makes it a failure at the order of magnitude of Digderidoo. I bet Ken Nagle designed it.

arebennian

01-21-2010, 07:09 AM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=4849536#post4849536
Courtesy of CaptainBlack.

Bazaar Trader 1R
Creature - Goblin (R)
T: Target player gains control of target artifact, creature or land that you control.
1/1
Matt Cavotta
#72/145

I was really looking forward to this guy :-(

Captain_Morgan

01-21-2010, 07:13 AM

Poor man's Tarmo. I'm wondering if he could replace Tarmo in something like Mono Green Chalice Aggro. 1 mana more and $40 cheaper. :wink:

Poor man's Tarmogoyf is a targeted destroy spell or Relic of Progenitus.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=4849536#post4849536
Courtesy of CaptainBlack.

Bazaar Trader 1R
Creature - Goblin (R)
T: Target player gains control of target artifact, creature or land that you control.
1/1
Matt Cavotta
#72/145

I was really looking forward to this guy :-(

I'm a little fuzzy on this with timing these days, but I am not sure is it possible to:

1. Cast Leveler
2. Put the incoming Remove your library effect from the game on the stack
3. Use Bazaar Trader's ability in response.
4. Opponent gains control of Leveler, and mills himself.
5. Say go, upkeep, opponent cannot draw anymore, and you win.

Hypothetically a turn 3 kill with acceleration, but probably too fragile to be of much use in the actual format.

I'm waiting for the Lin-Sivvy of Allies to make them playable.

If they were Rebels rather than Allies, they might've been able to bring Rebels to Tier 2. They bring back one classic creature type, and it just had to be Kors. Even then Kors have no lords, and are just basically as useless as the white guys from all other previous pseudo tribes we've seen over the years. Goblins on the other hand have one thing necessary for a great tribe: consistent candidates.

The third set always provides the power cards. If they are going to unleash allies, it will be then. However, considering the history of past blocks there's always one tribe that gets out of whack against all the others. It seems this cycle its vampires turn.

Overall, I think Goblins is way over done. Black with zombies is too slow, and instead we get vampires? I hope they place in some better lords for them or else they'll be scrapped as a deck overtime. Blue needs some more faerie love, but probably won't happen for a long while. Elves is steadily improving, but they lack a 2 slot elf lord to sing. Soldiers is getting there, but still not quite what it could be with all these crappy white, sub tribes like Kor, Kithkin, and ect. Just be done with it and go human masters in white, it's not nerds are going to really care for:

http://freeteams.net/files_public/2/2167/files/matchreports/CartmanKKK1.jpg

I really do miss being minority and have all my rebels killed, then mockingly say casting a single Sivvi that "The South shall again!"

luckme10

01-21-2010, 07:18 AM

eq.firemind

01-21-2010, 07:23 AM

Infinitium

01-21-2010, 07:26 AM

If you have a ridiculous amount of permission, you won't have enough creatures to put counters on the Quest. Actually, serpents are the absolute worst tribe in Magic, so I liked at first that they were going to print "support" for them. Then I realized that the 4 Aether Vial I threw in the decklist as a joke are actually better than this card, which makes it a failure at the order of magnitude of Digderidoo. I bet Ken Nagle designed it.

Note how Top, Brainstorm or Jace could potentially recycle the same creature over and over again for the Quest. Then again it still won't conceivable get active until turn 5-6 most of the time anyway so remains unplayable.

Amulet of Vigor looks interesting and potentially busted in Vintage ('sup Time Vault and bounce effects). Probably useless in Legacy, but it's an effect long due nonetheless.

Also I'm vaguely optimistic about Explore: at worst it's a bad cantrip, at best it's effectively an early Time Walk for control decks (except that you only get the one untapped land instead of all of them. And you can't abuse CIPT effects. And it doesn't pitch to Force. And you canät randomly go coup de grace peoples asses. Ok you know what, fuck that comparison. It's good).

luma

01-21-2010, 07:30 AM

I'm a little fuzzy on this with timing these days, but I am not sure is it possible to:

1. Cast Leveler
2. Put the incoming Remove your library effect from the game on the stack
3. Use Bazaar Trader's ability in response.
4. Opponent gains control of Leveler, and mills himself.
5. Say go, upkeep, opponent cannot draw anymore, and you win.

Nice combo, except that the Leveler's ability still exiles your library, so you'll end up with no library and your opponent gets a 10/10.

Nidd

01-21-2010, 07:37 AM

hmm, Donate on a stick... where's illusions on a stick?
How about donating that reverse Platinum Angel?

Volrath

01-21-2010, 07:48 AM

*Big Elephant* :6::g::g:
Creature - Elephant (R)
When ~this~ comes into play, destroy three target non-creature permanents.
For each permanent destroyed this way, it's controller puts a 3/3 green Elephant token onto the battlefield.
9/9

Isn't this yust barrels of fun :D?

arebennian

01-21-2010, 07:58 AM

Additional Natural Order target for Elves, that's about the only application I see.

And even then you would be better sticking in a second Progenitus.

Possibly in Reanimator, for those that run Angel of Despair.

eq.firemind

01-21-2010, 08:02 AM

arebennian

01-21-2010, 08:04 AM

Yeah, but this kills three...
Although the three 3/3 can be a bit of a problem ;-)

Your right though. Totally forgot about Primus.

Volrath

01-21-2010, 08:22 AM

But the Elephant is 9/9.

And can remove up to 3 nasty thingies.

And 1 of them could be your own land, than you have a 9/9 and a 3/3.

You could also yust destroy your own lands and have a 9/9 and 3 3/3's.

kicks_422

01-21-2010, 08:37 AM

It's destroy three, not up to three. But anyway, this WILL replace Angel of Despair for those that run it in reanimator, like me.

Jon Stewart

01-21-2010, 08:40 AM

It's too bad this says "noncreature permanents"

I would automatically replace Progenitus in Elves with this if it could remove any permanent since this is actually hardcastable in elves.

As is, the card is still very useful. If you fear your oppoent playing a wrath effect, remove two of their lands and one of yours, and he gets two vanilla 3/3s and you get one. Swing with all your elves and this guy the next two turns for the win.

kicks_422

01-21-2010, 08:48 AM

Fuck, wait. The 3/3's go to the owner of the blown up permanents? Then I guess not. AoD's still in.

TorpidNinja

01-21-2010, 09:08 AM

Cthuloo

01-21-2010, 09:13 AM

Bojuka Pit
Land (Common)
~ETB tapped
T:add B
When ~ ETB remove all cards in target players graveyard from the game.

This = finally no more autolosing vs ichorid with loam pox.

Me = happy.

eq.firemind

01-21-2010, 09:16 AM

Cycle of common non-basics with CIPT and triggered abilities.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=214629

The source of the rumor is reliable and has been feeding many of the spoiled cards to Salvation. Seems like they were actually putting Ruin Ghost in the set for a reason. Notably includes a "swamp" which removes target player's graveyard from the game.

Could someone post the cards here?

Bojuka Pit
Land (Common)
~ETB tapped
T:add B
When ~ ETB remove all cards in target players graveyard from the game.

So Knight of the Reliquary becomes realy sick. Also, Weathered Wayfarer is more nutty tech card :smile:.

TorpidNinja

01-21-2010, 09:18 AM

Courtesy of pinkfloyd in the BurntChomsky thread.

Khalni Garden?
Land (Common)
~ ETB tapped
T: add G
When ~ ETB put a 0/1 green Plant token into play.

Tuktuk ????
Land (Common)
~ ETB tapped
T: add R
When ~ ETB, target creature cannot block EOT.

Bojuka Pit
Land (Common)
~ETB tapped
T:add B
When ~ ETB remove all cards in target players graveyard from the game.

-now confirmed by Cap'n Black

???? Temple?
Land (Common)
~ETB tapped
T:add W
When ~ ETB target creature you control gets protection from the color of your choice until EOT.

Halimar Depths
Land (Common)
~ETB tapped
T:add U
When ~ ETB look at top 3 of your library put them back in any order.

conboy31

01-21-2010, 09:20 AM

What? WOW.

Bojuka Pit is an absolute bomb! That card is straight amazing. I think I will add one in vintage counting it half as a mana source and half as a spell. The ability to get a halfass mana source and hose a GY is a piece of gold cardboard.

Mark Sun

01-21-2010, 09:29 AM

I almost freaked out at the blue one, but it just happens once. :eek:

The Bojuka Pit is awesome. Uncounterable GY hate (sans Stifle) is always welcome.

eq.firemind

01-21-2010, 09:33 AM

Nightmare

01-21-2010, 09:35 AM

Man, Wizards sure does hate Dredge. At this point, it seems safe to assume it's a "whoops" mechanic.

Wrath_Of_Houlding

01-21-2010, 09:35 AM

Yeah, other than the black one, they're pretty awful.

Mark Sun

01-21-2010, 09:36 AM

@TorpidNinja
Thanks!

:b: - NUTZ!!!
:u: - Maybe...
:r: - another way to push a Lackey/Instigator through blocker?
:g: - fodder for NO? Like Dryad Arbor, but the land will stay with you after NO...
:w: - Dunno, looks useless

I don't think Goblins will use the Red one, there are enough T2 plays right now, and even if you play a bad substitute like Goblin Shortcutter, at least you have a body instead of a CIPT land.

Aggro_zombies

01-21-2010, 10:01 AM

The blue/black manland has been spoiled as an unblockable 3/2. Seems really decent, but homeless.

Bigface

01-21-2010, 10:06 AM

Landstill with B? Faeries?

MMogg

01-21-2010, 10:23 AM

Bigface

01-21-2010, 10:29 AM

Avoids Cabal Therapy, Pithing Needle, Reverent Silence, FoW and everything else Ichorid can play to avoid its GY being emptied. Even though you can play it sorcery speed only.

Aggro_zombies

01-21-2010, 10:46 AM

Even though you can play it sorcery speed only.
This is actually a really big issue. Ichorid can play around sorcery-speed removal effects easily.

Bigface

01-21-2010, 10:48 AM

Well, it works against Thresh and Loam as well. In the worst case possible you'll end up with a tapped land that gives B (and no GY for your opponent) for no mana. Could be played 1-2x.

morgan_coke

01-21-2010, 10:54 AM

The GY hate lands bestest friends are Crop Rotation and Knight of the Reliquary. That gives it instant-speedyness. Also lets decks like 5c garden run maindeck gy hate and free up crypt slots from their sideboard.

Wrath_Of_Houlding

01-21-2010, 10:54 AM

You could drop it post combat to kill goyfs. If they block with a 3/4 and it takes two damage, then it turns into a 0/1, its pretty dead.

Mark Sun

01-21-2010, 10:58 AM

Meh, do you guys really think that land can replace Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus? I don't think so. You miss your land drop to a ETB tapped land. Boo. Do you think there are more SB slots available for SB hate? I don't know about that either. Seems like a good card that just doesn't make the cut.

I believe if you treat it like a spell in your list, like, I don't know, a "Maze of Ith/Tabernacle" type card, you can be judicious on when to play the card. I don't think it replaces Crypt/Relic, but it is protected from discard spells and what not that Icorid may throw at you. That said, I understand 100% where you're coming from, and it'll be hard. It's not quite a Maze/Tab because it produces mana, so can it be 0.5 Land in a list?

tyleredw

01-21-2010, 10:59 AM

You could drop it post combat to kill goyfs. If they block with a 3/4 and it takes two damage, then it turns into a 0/1, its pretty dead.

Assuming you have no cards in your graveyard to feed it.

Cthuloo

01-21-2010, 11:00 AM

Meh, do you guys really think that land can replace Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus? I don't think so. You miss your land drop to a ETB tapped land. Boo. Do you think there are more SB slots available for SB hate? I don't know about that either. Seems like a good card that just doesn't make the cut.

But this can really be maindecked. Decks with tutors and/or loam can easily play it as a 1 or 2 of. Of course it should be complemented by some other slot in the board, but it allows you both to have a g1 answer against decks abusing graveyard and to free up some slots in the sideboard.

Jaynel

01-21-2010, 11:07 AM

Cire

01-21-2010, 11:29 AM

Is there anyway for this card to be useful in legacy?

Amulet of Vigor 1
Artifact
Whenever a permanent enters the battlefield tapped and under your control, untap it.

Stasis (putting a land into play to keep stasis alive long enough)? RootMaze (+amulet would be a huge tempo boost, slowing them down but not yourselves, additionally you can actually speed yourselves up if you draw multiple amulet's due to the interaction below)? New man land deck?

Additionally a cool interaction that was brought up by some people on themanadrain

"Actually, having multiples of this is great. Due to the wording, if you have two in play and play an ETBT land, two triggers from the Amulet of Vigor go on the stack. You let the first one resolve (land is untapped), then you tap the land for mana, after which you let the second trigger resolve, resulting in one free mana."

Infinitium

01-21-2010, 11:50 AM

Actually, that + Stasis + Karoo Lands (tap for mana, bounce itself) + Root Maze + nifty trick = quite the lock. Obviously loses out big time to Wasteland and friends, but it's on color for LftL shenanigans and can potentially abuse Crucible as well. Nice find.

Oh, and it has Magosi, the Waterveil as well. I'mma have to look into this.

UrDraco

01-21-2010, 11:51 AM

I know that I am going to put at least one of that black land in 43lands.dec. It fits awesomely there. This new set is very exciting for the lands deck.

Infinitium

01-21-2010, 11:55 AM

Stoneforge Mystic 1W
Creature - Kor Artificer (rare)

When Stoneforge Mystic Enters the Battlefield, you may search your library for an equipment card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. If you do, shuffle your library.
1W, tap: Put an Equipment card from your hand onto the battlefield.

1/2

Obviously has no tribal implications whatsoever, but still might be good for certain WW builds. Might be homeless but hey, relevant card advantage that can fetch Swords or Jitte.

morgan_coke

01-21-2010, 11:59 AM

Amulet of Vigor works pretty well with Orb of Dreams.

Orb of Dreams 3
Artifact
Permanents enter the battlefield tapped.

conboy31

01-21-2010, 12:12 PM

Is there anyway for this card to be useful in legacy?

Amulet of Vigor 1
Artifact
Whenever a permanent enters the battlefield tapped and under your control, untap it.

I haven't figured it out, but it makes janky combo's with that magosi land easier. Probably EDH fodder.

Nihil Credo

01-21-2010, 12:13 PM

These lands look good enough to make Crop Rotation start showing up in a lot more decklists. Black is obviously awesome, but the White one also enables some huge "fuck you" moments.

Also, for slower formats, the Green land looks like a huge boost to control, much better than the already playable Kabira Crossroads.

Also, remember to spend two bucks and get a playset of Amulet of Vigor before it goes the way of Grindstone in 2020 or so.

SilverGreen

01-21-2010, 12:19 PM

Explore :1::g:
Sorcery (Common)
You may play an additional land this turn.
Draw a card.

So much expectation put on this card. What an elegant design. What a perfect name and fantastic flavor. What a great overall design. What a sub-par manacost.

Still waiting for the Legacy-staple green Ponder. One more great, wasted opportunity, unfortunelly.

Meh, do you guys really think that land can replace Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus? I don't think so. You miss your land drop to a ETB tapped land. Boo. Do you think there are more SB slots available for SB hate? I don't know about that either. Seems like a good card that just doesn't make the cut.Not if you're a Loam player at core, something I happen to be. This kind of deck already clogs a number of SB slots with GY-hate, it'll just add some insult to the Aggro Loam fellows' injury. Loved it so much.

Nidd

01-21-2010, 12:51 PM

Obviously has no tribal implications whatsoever, but still might be good for certain WW builds. Might be homeless but hey, relevant card advantage that can fetch Swords or Jitte.
This makes me jizz my pants even more. God damnit, I want to play Kaldra.dec in Legacy!

Enigma

01-21-2010, 01:08 PM

I really like the implication of the White land in combination with either Knight of the Reliquary or Crop Rotation.

As for the black one, I'd say it will not replace Tormod's crypt, never. Most of the time, you try to mull into GYH, play it, and wait for the best timing to exile their graveyard. Sure it's a good card against them, but not enough good to be the only GYH. I could see it played in a couple of decks being able to fetch them, but not in any "regular" deck that are already having Leyline, Crypt or Relic.

And for the Green one, yes it's good, but not as good as Dryad Arbor in NO.decks, mostly because it cannot be fetched.

P-M

morgan_coke

01-21-2010, 01:14 PM

wouldn't you run the green one alongside arbor in NO decks? I mean, one Arbor for fetchiness, then a couple of the green token lands for NO/therapy fodder?

Also, how much has the format changed that the first thought for how to use a free token is natural order instead of cabal therapy?

Aggro_zombies

01-21-2010, 02:37 PM

wouldn't you run the green one alongside arbor in NO decks? I mean, one Arbor for fetchiness, then a couple of the green token lands for NO/therapy fodder?
No. That's too many lands that essentially come into play tapped. The Bant and Bant Countertop builds wouldn't want to destabilize their mana by running it, and generic green decks like Elves are hardly lacking in creatures.

Cire

01-21-2010, 02:54 PM

I don't know if this has been mentioned but

Bazaar Trader + Threaten Effects --> Permenant Steal

Play Threaten gain control of the creature TEOT, Use traders ability, give yourself permenant control of the creature you just threatened.

I don't know how good it is but it's an intresting interaction

Illissius

01-21-2010, 04:06 PM

Man they're really going all out on the graveyard hate. What's next?

Superbiggery Growth
:g:
Instant
Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn and remove target player's graveyard from the game.

I mean, seriously. Pretty soon they could just come up with a new keyword for it.

Anyway, yeah, Bog looks pretty good. Sad part is that most decks wouldn't want to play 4 maindeck, and tutoring for it takes time (barring Crop Rotation), so it won't end up hurting Dredge decks so much as Loam and such.

Also, regarding Halimar Depths, it's effectively the same as playing an Island and then tapping it to activate Sensei's Divining Top. I'm not sure about it. On the one hand, obviously you would rather have an Island and a Top. On the other hand, you can't always have a Top and sometimes it might be nice to be able to get a Top activation without having a Top. The main problem is you can't choose to not pay the virtual :1: to Top with it, and that it gets Wastelanded.

Knight of the Reliquary + bunch of Depths + Counterbalance would be pretty funny.

I wonder if you could do some kind of crazy deck with some of the new taplands, City of Traitors, Ravnica Karoos, and then maybe some Exploration effects. (Well, I'm sure you could, the question is whether it could be good. Probably not.)

Aggro_zombies

01-21-2010, 04:09 PM

I wonder if you could do some kind of crazy deck with some of the new taplands, City of Traitors, Ravnica Karoos, and then maybe some Exploration effects. (Well, I'm sure you could, the question is whether it could be good. Probably not.)
Good thing they're printing Amulet of Vigor in this set!

dahcmai

01-21-2010, 05:24 PM

Tacosnape

01-21-2010, 05:27 PM

The Bog is the sexiest card revealed so far by far. There's absolutely no way that 38 Land won't find a way to stick 1 of these maindeck, and any Smallpox build is probably going to love this thing. R/B Goblins might pick it up for sideboard, also.

Atwa

01-21-2010, 05:40 PM

So far, I think I'm going to buy some Jace's for Standard and some Foil Dispel's for Legacy. Not much to write home about so far.

It's too bad this one is so expensive 43 Lands would suck this up otherwise.

Seer's Sundial
4
Artifact
Landfall - Whenever a land enters the battlefield under your control you may pay 2. If you do, draw a card.
Artist - Franz Vohwinkle
130/145
If it costed 1 or 2, I would actually test it out in Eternal Garden. Preferably not 2, since I play no 2cc permanents and that is my favored EE number, but I would still test it out. Now it's just an overcosted one sided Horn of Greed, and neither Garden or Lands plays even that card.

I am actually kind of thrilled by the grave hate land. Too bad my Garden list doesn't play black, however I'd rather side in (or play) 1 land which doesn't give me mana along with 3 Crop Rotations maindeck, then use 3 or 4 valuable sideboard spots for grave hate in a deck already playing a wishboard. Seeing I start having trouble with reanimated Iona's and Inkwell Leviathans, I was already considering adding some black for Chainer's Edict in the board.

So far the set seems decent. Not too many overpowered cards, but I think the level of the cards so far is pretty good. I'm not as enthousiast as I was for Zendikar, but still most of the time I enjoy the first set in a block the best for some reason.

Aggro_zombies

01-21-2010, 05:42 PM

TheInfamousBearAssassin

01-21-2010, 05:48 PM

1) Explore functionally costs close to 1. It would be accurate to describe it as costing about 1.3 mana, since most of the time you care you'll have a land to drop untapped.

2) I think my favorite part about Explore is that it makes Maze of Ith seem viable again. That might be an illusion on my part, but even so, I'll embrace it.

Also, on a side note...

Stoneforge Mystic
Creature - Kor Artificer (rare)

When Stoneforge Mystic Enters the Battlefield, you may search your library for an equipment card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. If you do, shuffle your library.
, : Put an Equipment card from your hand onto the battlefield.

1/2

Why aren't more people talking about how awesome this guy is?

Illissius

01-21-2010, 05:50 PM

Meh. I was pretty sure they would print a new Horn of Greed with "whenever a land enters the battlefield" (Landfall) rather than "whenever you play a land". Too bad they had to make it crap. I wouldn't even play it in Turboland.

On the plus side, this one works with Burgeoning.

Edit:

Why aren't more people talking about how awesome this guy is?

My bet would be that the reason is because it's (a) a small creature (b) who costs mana (c) needs to tap and (d) requires some measure of building-around. Historically, those haven't seen a lot of success. I mean, Goblin Welder costs only one mana and none to activate, does something ridiculously powerful, and still sees no play. Granted, this guy would require less building-around than Welder -- you could use just an expensive equipment or two -- but even then you would end up with expensive equipment stuck in your hand and maybe a dead Mystic in your graveyard more often than you got it to work. But the whole point is mooted by the fact that there aren't even any expensive Equipment worth a damn.

That said, even if you ignore the tap ability completely, maybe it's half-decent. Then it's Steelshaper's Gift for :1: more and you get a 1/2. But nobody plays Steelshaper's Gift, so the prospects are iffy, at best.

Edit: Of course I was a skeptic about Path to Exile as well, among other things, so given my track record you can expect the card to be broken.

I'll have to think about Explore. I'm still stuck on it being borken at one mana and can't think through what it would be like at two. Anything which increases the odds of Maze of Ith happening is a plus in my book.

Nidd

01-21-2010, 05:54 PM

Because he costs 2 mana for a weak body?

dahcmai

01-21-2010, 06:02 PM

Interesting combination for that Amulet with Thawing Glaciers though. Playing multiples gets silly quick. I always loved Thaws. Still seems bad, but hey, it's interesting.

And yeah, I didn't say that other card was good, it's just way overcosted. 1 mana would convince me to play it. I doubt I would at 2 mana, though it's not horrid at that point just decent.

Aggro_zombies

01-21-2010, 06:07 PM

Interesting combination for that Amulet with Thawing Glaciers though. Playing multiples gets silly quick. I always loved Thaws. Still seems bad, but hey, it's interesting.
It seems decent in EDH if you have a way to untap Thawing Glaciers.

Illissius

01-21-2010, 06:09 PM

Oh man Thawing Glaciers. I keep wanting to build a Thawing Glaciers / Deserted Temple deck. Too bad this card wasn't around for the start of the budget tournament -- a format without Wasteland.

Aggro_zombies

01-21-2010, 06:49 PM

According to this thread (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=214717), the :g::w: manland has been spoiled as a 3/4 with reach.

How...incredibly meh. I'd still rather have Monastery because the extra point of power and first strike are relevant.

The Grim Reaper

01-21-2010, 07:22 PM

Pale Apes
W
If you control a forest, ~ gets +1/+2.
1/1

Oh god Zoogasm.

AngryTroll

01-21-2010, 07:39 PM

Pale Apes
W
If you control a forest, ~ gets +1/+2.
1/1

Oh god Zoogasm.

Except Kird Ape is competing to hold its slots against Steppe Lynx and Figure of Destiny. It's still awesome, but the deck has a stronger devotion to red than white, so Kird Ape is better.

Illissius

01-21-2010, 07:48 PM

It's interesting to note that, if they wanted to do something against Tarmogoyf, they could've made the Bog say "all graveyards" rather than "target player's graveyard". Had they done that, people would really be giving serious consideration to playing 4 of them maindeck. It might have, unlike anything else (short of printing better creatures), even had an impact on Tarmogoyf's popularity. But they didn't do it.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

01-21-2010, 08:21 PM

AngryTroll

01-21-2010, 08:34 PM

As for the Artificer: The tap ability is irrelevant. The fact that it's a Steelshaper's Gift with a body built in to be equipped is what draws me to the card. Card advantage creatures are to be judged by their card advantage, not their body size. Compare the body on Trinket Mage or E. Witness or Goblin Ringleader, for instance.

Even better, though, is that it's got a very solid second ability tacked on. Haste makes Ringleader much better than not having Haste; the second ability on Artificer makes it pretty interesting. A 2/1 would probably have been better than a 1/2, but that's not really that big of a deal.

FoolofaTook

01-21-2010, 08:45 PM

Except Kird Ape is competing to hold its slots against Steppe Lynx and Figure of Destiny. It's still awesome, but the deck has a stronger devotion to red than white, so Kird Ape is better.

Green, white and bluegasm.

hungryLIKEALION

01-21-2010, 08:53 PM

White Ape is plenty easy to cast in zoo, so that really has no bearing on which one is better. What does distinguish the two is what hate cards they get hit by. Kird ape gets hit by blue elemental and hydroblasts. White ape gets hit by...

Anarchy?

White Ape is probably better, but the difference is negligible.

Forbiddian

01-21-2010, 09:14 PM

White Ape spreads out the mana better (actually a good thing for Zoo). I'd say White is actually easier to get midgame and late-game because your red mana is often tied up with Grim or at the very least bluffing Bolts.

The few times I've played Zoo, I wished that Kird Ape had been another color. Not cause of blue blast, but because I couldn't cast him since I needed to stay open with burn.

Sims

01-21-2010, 10:08 PM

Pale Apes
W
If you control a forest, ~ gets +1/+2.
1/1

Oh god Zoogasm.

state your source, sir!

Obfuscate Freely

01-21-2010, 10:17 PM

Pale Apes is worse than Kird Ape in Zoo because fetching Savannah on turn one is awful.

I'm pretty sure Steppe Lynx is better than both, though, so it's mostly a moot point.

DrHealex

01-21-2010, 10:20 PM

I haven't found a source for that guy. Although the orb does state 2 instances of the word apes, 2 or the word forest, 0 of the word pale, 1 instance of +1/+2

so i say it could be valid, but the name certainly isn't "pale" apes

Wargoos

01-21-2010, 10:39 PM

Pale Apes is worse than Kird Ape in Zoo because fetching Savannah on turn one is awful.

I'm pretty sure Steppe Lynx is better than both, though, so it's mostly a moot point.

When we're at the point, did you consider to write a tourney report of hanau?
I would very much appreciate that.

Media314r8

01-21-2010, 10:41 PM

IMO the black common land probably doesn't exile an entire GY, but a ~card~ in a GY. It initially was spoiled as "EtB- exile target player's library." It's a common, I doubt it will be as awesome as spoiled or as highly played as predicted. IMO, the red common land makes lackies and 'gators connect pretty well. I'm still testing 'greedy goblins' with 4 soaring seacliffs and 4 of this new red land with 4 lackies, 4 gators, 4 drivers.

Stoneforge mystic is by and far the card I'm most excited about in this set. Having the ability to EoT tap vial @ 2, fetch jitte, still EoT pay 1W put jitte onto the battlefield uncounterable-like, and untap, equip, swing is absolutely insane. Also, 'toolboxing' 1 of SoLS and SoFIs in WW with this guy is pretty nutty, as he can cheat them in for a mana less and fetch them against decks which may then be completely cold to an Sword-equipped Serra Avenger. I was running 4 jitte in WW as when you stuck it, you usually won.

Now I can run 3 and almost always see it with this guy as a four-of.

(53/60*52/59*51/58*50/57*49/56*48/55*47/54)^-1 = 60% chance of seeing him or jitte in opening 7 with 3 jittes, 4 mystics MD. 70% chance of having him or jitte by turn three. (thus having an active jitte turn 4)

TheCramp

01-21-2010, 11:36 PM

If the white land in that thread turns out true...

T:add W
When ~ ETB target creature you control gets protection from the color of your choice until EOT.

...Knight of the reliquary just got insane. Terravor(ish) + Mother of Runes + Tormond's Crypt? Get yours now before their 14 bucks a pop.

Cire

01-22-2010, 12:06 AM

43 land deck just got redic

Tresure Hunt 1U
Sorcery
Reveal cards from the top of your library till you reveal a non-land card, then put all cards revealed this way into your hand

Apex

01-22-2010, 12:08 AM

I'm gonna have to go ahead and snatch up as many foil copies of Treasure Hunt as possible. I had to re-read that card 3 times before I was certain I wasn't reading it wrong or something.

It just seems....soooooooooooo good (in land.dec).

Steveman

01-22-2010, 12:12 AM

Treasure Hunt might as well have this in its text

Search your library for a card named Life from the Loam and put it into your hand

Draw your deck

Mark Sun

01-22-2010, 12:13 AM

Oh wow, are you kidding? How is that card even fair? :eek:

I'm kind of in shock about all this, tbh. It's COMMON. WTF.

Stall_19

01-22-2010, 12:15 AM

Well if 43 lands.dec is not playing blue, it might want to now.

Illissius

01-22-2010, 12:17 AM

They printed Relic of Progenitus. It's pretty obvious that there's nothing else they can do to stop Goyf's popularity short of banning it, so looking for more hosers seems futile. They'll either decide to ban it or they won't, but no Tsabo's Web is coming down the pike.

Obviously my point was that a Bog which removed all graveyards would be more maindeckable and hence a better hoser than Relic -- similar to the way in which Tsabo's Web saw more play than Teferi's Response. Apparently you don't agree.

As for the Artificer: The tap ability is irrelevant. The fact that it's a Steelshaper's Gift with a body built in to be equipped is what draws me to the card. Card advantage creatures are to be judged by their card advantage, not their body size. Compare the body on Trinket Mage or E. Witness or Goblin Ringleader, for instance.

You may be right. But comparing to Trinket Mage specifically, the cards which Trinket Mage can fetch (Top, Chalice) are a lot better than the cards which the Artificer can fetch (Umezawa's Jitte is more or less the best equipment around). Unlike trinkets, you don't see many decks which play 4 of a given equipment and want to play more; furthermore equipment have much less versatility for forming a toolbox than trinkets do.

Maybe :1::w: for just the body would be good. I can't tell, though I'm doubtful. Comparison to some similar card advantage creatures which don't see play, in addition to the ones which do (above), might be instructive.

whienot

01-22-2010, 12:23 AM

Wow, if Treasure Hunt is real, Tabernacle will get another boost in price.

Yikes. Absolutely rediculous.

kicks_422

01-22-2010, 12:25 AM

This card makes Manabond so broken. LOL. Now if only the whole deck ALREADY DIDN'T COST SO MUCH.

ktkenshinx

01-22-2010, 12:31 AM

Well this new card adds quite a trick to Lands.

I am wondering, however, if it necessarily makes the pre-existant Lands deck more expensive. Sure, it makes the deck better, but might it also make other Lands variants viable as well? Currently, all Lands decks are more or less the same. This new card might perhaps open up different Lands variants, with different win mechanisms, cards, interactions, and so on.

-ktkenshinx-

Illissius

01-22-2010, 12:42 AM

I wouldn't be so sure about Treasure Hunt. If you run the generally accepted bare minimum of spells in Lands (4 Exploration, 4 Manabond, 4 Life from the Loam, 4 Treasure Hunt), that gives you 16 spells in 60 cards. If spells are evenly distributed in your library (obviously not the case, but I don't feel like figuring out the combinatorics on this one), Treasure Hunt will tend to draw you 3 lands and 1 spell. Clearly not bad, at all, but not "holy shit draw your deck insane" either. A relevant comparison would be Mulch. (It's probably better than Mulch.)

It is, however, pretty broken with Scouting Trek.

AngryTroll

01-22-2010, 12:43 AM

Turn one: Manabond, choose not to activate.
Turn two: Treasure Hunt (on MagictheGathering.com today, confirmed real), drop a bunch of lands into play.

At some point, someone is going to win on turn two with Treasure Hunt, Mountains, and Valakut. Even turn one Land, Exploration, Land; Turn two Treasure Hunt, Land, Land, anything is going to win a lot of games.

Man, I wish Explorations were't $20 cards.

Cire

01-22-2010, 12:43 AM

Also i think allies might finnally be playable

Jwari Shapeshifter
1U
Creature - Shapeshifter Ally (Rare)
You may have Jwari Shapeshifter enter the battlefield as a copy of any Ally creature on the battlefield.
0/0

TheInfamousBearAssassin

01-22-2010, 12:49 AM

Dose of reality;

43 lands runs, typically, around 43 lands. Actually, most lists run less.

Statistically, then, how often is Treasure Hunt going be significantly better than Mulch? And how often is it going to be much worse?

Keeping in mind that Mulch doesn't see play.

@Illisius: The only decks that would maindeck a tutorable land run Loam and/or Reliquary. Generally those decks don't want to hose their own yards, whether to fuel Loam or Goyf and Lavamancer. So it seems unlikely to me that the card would see more play if it hosed all yards. No anti-Goyf deck would run it except possibly Land Hax.

As for the Stoneforger, it's big advantage is that it scales up ala Rebels. Trinket Mage, while a good card, had the disadvantage of basically being a Mercenary. EE was an exception. So is Chalice, sort of, except Trinket usually comes down too late for Chalice to be of maximum impact. It grabs Top and once in a while Grindstone or Cursed Scroll or something, which is neat. Jitte is amazing, however, as are SoFI and SoLS. There's a lot of potential card advantage there for a 2cc creature. And unlike, say, Confidant, it doesn't care so much about being nuked after entering play.

Pulp_Fiction

01-22-2010, 01:06 AM

In 43 lands it may be playable, most of the time it will be slightly better than Mulch but it will be a hell of a lot less consistent than Mulch. But in Eternal Garden (the only version of Lands! worth playing) it will be awful. Those lists typically run 31-33 lands and thats worthless, only half the deck is mana, you will mill 1-3 cards on average and get a Burning Wish, Loam, Mox Diamond (thanks), or something like that. Why would you play the card when you can just draw the brokenness yourself? These decks win because of ridiculous amounts of redundancy and Treasure Hunt adds nothing to the redundancy but rather adds what ifs to an already solid as hell deck.

EDIT: As much as I have seen this set does nothing for combo, dredge, and Loam variants (what I play).

Illissius

01-22-2010, 01:09 AM

@Illissius: The only decks that would maindeck a tutorable land run Loam and/or Reliquary.

This is what I think will end up being the case with Bog as-is, unless some kind of graveyard deck I'm having trouble thinking of (maybe Loam?) which actually cares about sorcery speed hate (so not Dredge or Reanimator) ends up running rampant.

Generally those decks don't want to hose their own yards, whether to fuel Loam or Goyf and Lavamancer. So it seems unlikely to me that the card would see more play if it hosed all yards. No anti-Goyf deck would run it except possibly Land Hax..

Actually, I think I've basically come around to thinking you're right. I was going to say that while obviously decks which rely on their own graveyards wouldn't play it, there are plenty of decks which don't and which would have an interesting in shrinking Tarmogoyfs. But there aren't so many decks which fit the description and are black. Its producing off-color mana is really what ends up killing it as much as the CIPT. Theoretically, being able to play it as part of the manabase rather than cutting spells and costing an effective :1: rather than :2: are both advantages of it over Relic (and people do occasionally maindeck Relic), but once you consider the actual decks which might want it and the competition it's up against -- would Merfolk want to run this over Wastelands and Mutavaults? -- prospects look a lot less bright. Maybe Goblins or Landstill might run a pair, but that's far from the potential ubiquity I was thinking of at first.

dahcmai

01-22-2010, 01:12 AM

Thank god Treasure hunt is a common. I play 43 Lands and that card is a godsend. I played Mulch and it has nothing on that. It basically says play me and you'll get Exploration, Manabond, or Loam! Keep the rest of the shit you see on the way. How can that be bad?

I already have been moving over to blue as it is since Intuition is pretty amazing in the deck as it is. It wasn't a hard move since we have Misty Rainforest now. I also had to admire the trick at the Starcity tournament where a guy played Academy Ruins in the deck for EE. That's a sweet trick and I have been working it in. This card pushes me more towards blue easily. I will play this, no doubt about it. That's just plain good.

walkerdog

01-22-2010, 01:13 AM

This is what I think will end up being the case with Bog as-is, unless some kind of graveyard deck I'm having trouble thinking of (maybe Loam?) which actually cares about sorcery speed hate (so not Dredge or Reanimator) ends up running rampant.

Actually, I think I've basically come around to thinking you're right. I was going to say that while obviously decks which rely on their own graveyards wouldn't play it, there are plenty of decks which don't and which would have an interesting in shrinking Tarmogoyfs. But there aren't so many decks which fit the description and are black. Its producing off-color mana is really what ends up killing it as much as the CIPT. Theoretically, being able to play it as part of the manabase rather than cutting spells and costing an effective :1: rather than :2: are both advantages of it over Relic (and people do occasionally maindeck Relic), but once you consider the actual decks which might want it and the competition it's up against -- would Merfolk want to run this over Wastelands and Mutavaults? -- prospects look a lot less bright. Maybe Goblins or Landstill might run a pair, but that's far from the potential ubiquity I was thinking of at first.

Mer might run this over the relic. Relic is = cards but 2 mana, instand speed, sort-of, while the land is 1 mana (in essense) but sorc speed. Seems 1-2 main-deckable for mer.

Forbiddian

01-22-2010, 01:20 AM

Dose of reality;

43 lands runs, typically, around 43 lands. Actually, most lists run less.

Statistically, then, how often is Treasure Hunt going be significantly better than Mulch? And how often is it going to be much worse?

Keeping in mind that Mulch doesn't see play.

I don't think it will ever be *much* worse. Even if the top card is non-land, you still keep that card, it's not any worse than a 1 or 2 land mulch.

It has the potential to be a lot better, though. Flip 2-3 lands, and draw into another copy of itself or Exploration or something is a lot better than even the fabled "four land Mulch."

Although it's a great point that the card is most comparable to Mulch, which is most comparable to literal and figurative Shit, so Treasure Hunt won't live up to the current hype. It won't "draw your deck and draw Loam" or anything even close. It might earn a slot in the most prestigious deck (they only accept 17 real cards), but it's not going to break 43 lands.

EDIT: Oh yeah, incidentally, Stoneforge Mystic (or whatever it's called) looks really solid. People are comparing it to Trinket Mage, which costs a full mana more. After thinking more, I'm certainly going to pick up a few copies of these.

eq.firemind

01-22-2010, 01:41 AM

Stoneforge Mystic 1W
Creature - Kor Artificer (rare)

When Stoneforge Mystic Enters the Battlefield, you may search your library for an equipment card, reveal it, and put it into your hand. If you do, shuffle your library.
1W, tap: Put an Equipment card from your hand onto the battlefield.

1/2

Angel Stompy just got some nuts!
I'm looking forward to see more tech equips in WWK and future sets.
Also, Jitte is fetchable with Survival of the Fittest now...

Aggro_zombies

01-22-2010, 02:02 AM

morgan_coke

01-22-2010, 03:29 AM

Is there a lodestone bauble/treasure hunt/land's edge combo now? Just wondering.

Nidd

01-22-2010, 05:16 AM

Man, I wish Explorations were't $20 cards.
What? Seriously? You must be kidding. I got mine for 5€ a piece.

Now if only the rest of the deck wouldn't be so expensive...:rolleyes:

luckme10

01-22-2010, 05:46 AM

Merfolk revealed?

Seijiri merfolk? 1U
Creature - Soldier merfolk
As long as you control a plains, ~ gain firststrike and lifelink
2/1
36/145

Source (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=214717&page=5)

arebennian

01-22-2010, 07:14 AM

dearleader

01-22-2010, 07:29 AM

I think the new kird ape is a useful replacement in this deck.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13067

Not having to fetch for red mana early is pretty big.

DownSyndromeKarl

01-22-2010, 08:35 AM

why was Treasure Hunt ever compared to Mulch? Mulch mills the non-lands, Treasure Hunts draws them. It's like comparing White Knight to Progenitus, neither can be hit by Deathmark, but one is slightly better than the other.

I can't wait to play this set in Limited. Some of the color restrictions are crazy and its going to slow down all the aggro we're seeing in Zendikar Limited.(not to a halt, but as least slow enough that creatures might be bigger than 3/3 by the time the games over.

Gheizen64

01-22-2010, 08:36 AM

Land
~ETB tapped
T: add 1 TYMP
1T: sacrifice~ desroy target land an opponent controls. Only play this abilitie if an opponent controls more lands.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=214717&page=6

Wasteland is 10 times better. Also, this is horrible and unusable in aggressive decks. CipT? Seriously, wizards ;_;

edgewalker

01-22-2010, 09:47 AM

Land
~ETB tapped
T: add 1 TYMP
1T: sacrifice~ desroy target land an opponent controls. Only play this abilitie if an opponent controls more lands.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=214717&page=6

If this didn't ETB tapped this wouldn't be too bad in NoGoyf

Nightmare

01-22-2010, 09:55 AM

Standard Appears to be getting an answer to Walletslayer Angel:

something Trap :3::g::g:
Instant
If you're being attacked by a flying creature, you may play ~ for :g:.
Destroy target creature with flying.

ReAnimator

01-22-2010, 10:07 AM

Standard doesn't really need a solution to Slayer, i suppose mono green does. If you look at all the top cards for most played in the format, Slayer is really low on the list. Lightning bolt probably outweighs slayer by a factor of ten in most tournaments.

Slayer hasn't really been in any top tier tournament winning decks main deck, only sideboards.

BreathWeapon

01-22-2010, 10:08 AM

White Kird Ape and the 1/2 Steel Shaper are quite nice, I imagine the White Kird Ape could be applied to UGW Aggro-Control, tho' 1/2 Steel Shaper is probably the best 2 drop since Tarmogoyf - albeit a little slow. I actually like the ass of 2 over more power, the +2/2 puts it out of the range of trading with Nacatl.

Otter

01-22-2010, 10:11 AM

According to this post:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=4856354&postcount=2

There's going to be a 1U 2/1 Merfolk Soldier that gets First Strike and Lifelink if you have a plains. While it has problems with Wasteland, it's still a 2/1 body on the board without the plains, same as Silvergill. I think it at least has some potential, there are already fish builds splashing white.

DrJones

01-22-2010, 10:44 AM

morgan_coke

01-22-2010, 10:44 AM

Wizards is STILL trying to print a fixed Strip Mine. Funny. Let's run through the history.

Strip Mine: The original, beyond insanely too good.

Wasteland: Defines older formats, singlehandedly makes basic lands relevant.

Dust Bowl: Not quite good enough for widespread use.

Ghost Quarter: Simultaneous card and land disadvantage is bad. Only really useful for corner cases.

Neo-Wasteland: Probably overly complex and therefore potentially breakable. Simply adding a mana activation and ETBT to Wasteland probably would have been correct. Allowing it to hit Basics will lead to Elf and Artifact Crucible locks. Makes mutual LD spells like Crack the Earth much stronger. Also works nicely with fetchlands triggers on the stack.

EDIT: the current semi-official spoilery text on neo-wasteland.
Land
Enters the Battlefield tapped.
T: Add 1 to your mana pool.
1, T: Sacrifice to destroy target land. Play this ability only if you control fewer lands than your opponent.

Probably not the exact text templating, but you get the idea.

Otter

01-22-2010, 11:28 AM

But Silvergill Adept is played solely because it draws you a card.

I wasn't suggesting that it was played because it has the board presence of Coral Merfolk. Just that we already know that deck can make some use out of a 2/1 body on the board, so it's not completely useless if you can't keep a plains on the board.

Barook

01-22-2010, 12:21 PM

Despite its crappy body, Stoneforge Mystic looks quite good. It's still card advantage for :1::w: that can fetch a game-breaking Jitte.

sunshine

01-22-2010, 12:24 PM

Neo-Wasteland: Probably overly complex and therefore potentially breakable. Simply adding a mana activation and ETBT to Wasteland probably would have been correct. Allowing it to hit Basics will lead to Elf and Artifact Crucible locks. Makes mutual LD spells like Crack the Earth much stronger. Also works nicely with fetchlands triggers on the stack.

Link to Neo-Wasteland? Or is that just speculation?

Jeff Kruchkow

01-22-2010, 12:24 PM

New merfolk would be a million times better if it was white and got that stuff for having an island. That way it could actually block a piledriver. However, i will be testing it as lifelink and first strike are awesome with lords.

edgewalker

01-22-2010, 12:54 PM

Sims

01-22-2010, 01:01 PM

That neo-waste is horribad. I was hoping this would be the block that they could reprint it.

Bryant Cook

01-22-2010, 01:12 PM

Infinitium

01-22-2010, 01:19 PM

Actually Ad Nauseum is Ad Nauseum for lands with a B splash (especially Gamble for a single tutor and a -total- casting cost of what, 20 in the entire deck?) but I digress. This is more like a slightly less reliable Mulch that gurantees you end up with at least 1 relevant card imo.

troopatroop

01-22-2010, 01:24 PM

Steppe Lynx
White Kird ApeCat
Wild Nacatl
Qasali Pridemage

Such quality G/W Cat Tribal!

spirit of the wretch

01-22-2010, 01:29 PM

Steppe Lynx
White Kird ApeCat
Wild Nacatl
Qasali Pridemage

Such quality G/W Cat Tribal!

CATS!!!

walkerdog

01-22-2010, 01:31 PM

Julian23

01-22-2010, 01:34 PM

Treasure Hunt
1u
Sorcery Common
Reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a nonland card, then put all cards revealed this way into your hand.

BROKEN. Seriously, in lands or something. This is rediculous with manabond. It's Ad Nauseam for 43 land.

43 land players, tell me: will you be playing this? It will usually draw an aweful lot of cards AND a spell + has great synergy with manabond.

Will you be playing this?

MattH

01-22-2010, 02:23 PM

Treasure Hunt into Seismic Assault seems like the best play ever :D

Wargoos

01-22-2010, 02:57 PM

EDIT: As much as I have seen this set does nothing for combo, dredge, and Loam variants (what I play).

U're my hero <3
(besides Aggro_Zombies)

Also price of progress just got better?

Reverend Damaged

01-22-2010, 03:03 PM

Treasure Hunt into Seismic Assault seems like the best play ever :D

I always liked the card Scouting Trek, and now I can use it to create a massive hand of basic lands! What I'll do with them, I don't know, but I like it. Maybe I'll discard them to a Wild Mongrel...

TheInfamousBearAssassin

01-22-2010, 03:33 PM

why was Treasure Hunt ever compared to Mulch? Mulch mills the non-lands, Treasure Hunts draws them. It's like comparing White Knight to Progenitus, neither can be hit by Deathmark, but one is slightly better than the other.

That's a terrible comparison. Progenitus is worse than White Knight in every deck that doesn't have a way of tricking him into play. This is like comparing Tendrils of Agony to Wild Nacatl. Moving on.

Mulch gets you land, Treasure Hunt gets you nonland. Problem; We're talking about 43 land, where your really powerful non-land cards are Life from the Loam and.... pretty much Life from the Loam. Which Mulch "gets" as well.

I'm going to say that the odds of you whiffing on Mulch are probably smaller than the odds of you getting mana-land into Exploration or Diamond or Manabond.

MattH

01-22-2010, 03:36 PM

I always liked the card Scouting Trek, and now I can use it to create a massive hand of basic lands! What I'll do with them, I don't know, but I like it. Maybe I'll discard them to a Wild Mongrel...

Discard them at EOT, then play Planar Birth!

rufus

01-22-2010, 03:48 PM

Treasure Hunt
....
BROKEN. Seriously, in lands or something. This is rediculous with manabond. It's Ad Nauseam for 43 land.

It seems pretty brittle. That said, it seems like using it to dig up lands that are on top of the deck from Brainstorm/SDT isn't entirely terrible.

Forbiddian

01-22-2010, 03:53 PM

If this didn't ETB tapped this wouldn't be too bad in NoGoyf

We don't even run 4 wastelands. If it didn't CIPT or cost 1 to activate, then maybe, but it's definitely two effects out of playable.

Bryant Cook

01-22-2010, 03:56 PM

It seems pretty brittle. That said, it seems like using it to dig up lands that are on top of the deck from Brainstorm/SDT isn't entirely terrible.

Why would you be running those cards in lands?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

01-22-2010, 04:08 PM

To make Treasure Hunt less terrible?

HAVE HEART

01-22-2010, 04:16 PM

Mulch gets you land, Treasure Hunt gets you nonland. Problem; We're talking about 43 land, where your really powerful non-land cards are Life from the Loam and.... pretty much Life from the Loam. Which Mulch "gets" as well.

Treasure Hunt should get that player a boatload of lands as well, especially if that person has thinned with Gamble and/or Intuition.

Forbiddian

01-22-2010, 04:20 PM

Why would you be running those cards in lands?

I think he's talking about a non-43 Lands application. O.o.

Anyway, instead of something useless, here's some math:
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z5/Forbiddian/EstimatedProbabilitiesforCardsDrawn.jpg

Maëlig

01-22-2010, 04:31 PM

Why would you be running those cards in lands?

Top is played in eternal garden, y'know.

Nihil Credo

01-22-2010, 04:40 PM

Wrath_Of_Houlding

01-22-2010, 04:50 PM

A+ for the ghetto summation scribble.

Forbiddian

01-22-2010, 05:13 PM

If you cast the card drawer while having L lands and S spells in your deck:

- Number of lands you'll hit with Mulch on average: 4*L/(L+S)

- Number of lands you'll hit with Hunt on average (sorry for the pic, haven't installed math software on this computer yet, and WolfAlpha is a bitch):

http://i.imgur.com/tO8mf.jpg (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1174)

Going to figure out the results now.

Yeah, but Hunt not only gets an automatic +1, but also a non-land is usually better than a land for 43 land.

Oh, and Mulch can "hit" Life from the Loam, but in a way that's worse by a full card draw anyway.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

01-22-2010, 05:16 PM

Yeah, but Hunt not only gets an automatic +1, but also a non-land is usually better than a land for 43 land.

It seems like the majority of 43land's nonland cards are only better than a land on turn 1 or 2.

This math also needs to take into account that unless you're cutting one of the other spells- and none of the cuts seem advisable- you're actually reducing the deck's landcount by adding Treasure Hunt. This is true for Mulch as well, of course, but no one plays Mulch.

Phoenix Ignition

01-22-2010, 05:21 PM

Yeah, but Hunt not only gets an automatic +1, but also a non-land is usually better than a land for 43 land.

Oh, and Mulch can "hit" Life from the Loam, but in a way that's worse by a full card draw anyway.

Depending on what lands you've hit already, sometimes the +3 cards you see from dredging Life is better than just hitting it. A good example is casting Treasure Hunt on turn 2 with a not great hand, and hitting a Life in the top 3 cards. Mulch would at least draw you the lands and give your graveyard more to work with.

Nihil Credo

01-22-2010, 05:40 PM

While I try and get a readable 3D plot, enjoy:

http://i.imgur.com/rWLXK.jpg (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1174)

Volt

01-22-2010, 05:50 PM

A+ for the ghetto summation scribble.

A+ for being the first person to ever use the phrase "ghetto summation scribble."

Darkenslight

01-22-2010, 06:15 PM

New card (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=214951):

Pilgrim's Eye {3}
Artifact creature - Thopter

Flying
When ~ ETB, you may search your library for a basic land card, reveal it and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
1/1

What do you think? Broken, or just bad?

DukeDemonKn1ght

01-22-2010, 06:30 PM

About Abyssal Persecutor...

Does anyone else think this dude is awesome in a Sui Black shell? You'd have to include some sac outlets, but between Cabal Therapy, Gatekeeper of Malakir, and possibly even Diabolic Tutor (to give you the ability to do it as an instant), there are pretty good options available. Plus, he's bigger than Tombstalker and you only need to be half as afraid of flipping it over with Dark Confidant...

Just wondering if anyone else has sort of a boner for that card, because I skimmed through this thread and there doesn't seem to be all that much discussion of this card, and I think he could be a fucking beatstick in the right deck.

pi4meterftw

01-22-2010, 06:35 PM

Nihil Credo

01-22-2010, 07:29 PM

Note that neither graph takes into account that THunt draws the first nonland card revealed.

http://i.imgur.com/QM7fP.jpg (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1174)

http://i.imgur.com/Zfown.jpg (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1174)

FoolofaTook

01-22-2010, 07:35 PM

Treasure Hunt and Life from the Loam both get around Zur's Weirding and Chains of Mephistopheles. Not that either of those get played much but I could see a really jagged combo coming out of Zur's or Chains in 38+ lands. It probably wouldn't be a consistent thing but it would make people absolutely scream when it was working.

Barook

01-22-2010, 07:46 PM

Does anyone else think this dude is awesome in a Sui Black shell? You'd have to include some sac outlets, but between Cabal Therapy, Gatekeeper of Malakir, and possibly even Diabolic Tutor (to give you the ability to do it as an instant), there are pretty good options available.

Assuming you run more sacrifice fodder like Bloodghast and Bitterblossom, why not Diabolic Intent? The drawback shouldn't matter that much in such a deck and Demonic Tutors are sexy.

pi4meterftw

01-22-2010, 07:49 PM

If you cast the card drawer while having L lands and S spells in your deck:

- Number of lands you'll hit with Mulch on average: 4*L/(L+S)

- Number of lands you'll hit with Hunt on average (sorry for the pic, haven't installed math software on this computer yet, and WolfAlpha is a bitch):

http://i.imgur.com/tO8mf.jpg (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1174)

Going to figure out the results now.

oh kewl somebody on the source can do t3h mathz. I didn't bother to check this, but immediately I can note that L+S=60.

There is one mistake, but I fixed it while making the graphs. Also, L and S are supposed to be the lands and spells left in your deck when you cast Hunt or Mulch, so L+S < 60. ~NC

DukeDemonKn1ght

01-22-2010, 08:24 PM

Assuming you run more sacrifice fodder like Bloodghast and Bitterblossom, why not Diabolic Intent? The drawback shouldn't matter that much in such a deck and Demonic Tutors are sexy.

Well, this would be one way to do it... I was thinking of a more single-minded approach though: Basically just "play fatty creatures (off Dark Rit if possible), make them discard some shit, use Bob to draw extra gas --> win?"

I'm not the best person for spotting what cards are gonna be big, but I really feel like Abyssal Persecutor could push Suicide Black over the edge and actually make it a good deck. Between him and some of the vampires that are being printed, the strategy is definitely being shown some love right now...

TheCramp

01-22-2010, 11:18 PM

I'm not the best person for spotting what cards are gonna be big, but I really feel like Abyssal Persecutor could push Suicide Black over the edge and actually make it a good deck. Between him and some of the vampires that are being printed, the strategy is definitely being shown some love right now...

I for sure want to be G/B. Not just 'cause tarmogoyf is perfect for the archetype, but that Maelstrom pulse is perfect for when you draw and drop 2 or three Abyssal Persecutors, but don't have 2 or three Cabal Therapys. The superior interaction with confidant is pretty sick. I thought of that immediately. Maybe more of a rock thing, with Hymns and bob, therapy, 'goyf, jitti, pulse, birds even.

Barook

01-22-2010, 11:47 PM

Due to this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16248) thread, I just noticed that Treasure Hunt is really good with Lightning Storm.

DukeDemonKn1ght

01-23-2010, 12:18 AM

Due to this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16248) thread, I just noticed that Treasure Hunt is really good with Lightning Storm.

Hell-motherfuckin'-yeah... I knew there was a reason I snapped up two play-sets of Lightning Storms when Coldsnap came out. Thank you sincerely for reminding me of a favorite card I had forgotten about. It's completely goofy, but I really do love that card. :laugh:

Also, I like how you say this as if someone else suggested the combo when if you read the link, you'll notice that you're the one suggesting Lightning Storm as the kill spell. Classy. :wink:

Darkenslight

01-23-2010, 03:28 AM

Quoted before ninja edit deletes the evidence that you said this.

What? I mean seriously, what?

FoulQ

01-23-2010, 03:30 AM

Because that card is absolutely horrible. And will never see play in any legacy deck ever. It's like posting the new incarnation of Scathe Zombies onto the thread.

Infinitium

01-23-2010, 05:01 AM

Actually it's kind of fringe playable in MUDx Stompy Shells. Aside from Metalworker, Master of Etherium and maybe Scarecrone/Esperzoa there aren't any viable artifact creatures at that cost, and I reckon this is about on par with the last two. It is an evasive creature with inherent card advantage which is colorless for Metalworker (big deal), guarantees a land drop and fixes mana (bigger deal).

It's narrow, and possibly to small to matter. But it sure as hell is no fucking Scathe Zombies.

Barook

01-23-2010, 08:11 AM

Tectonic Edge
Land (uncommon)
Add :1: to your mana pool.
:1:, tap, Sacrifice Tectonic Edge: Destroy target nonbasic land. Activate this ability only if an opponent controls four or more lands.

Way different than before, but still terribad. :rolleyes:

Gheizen64

01-23-2010, 09:06 AM

Druid zzz G
Creature - Elf Druid
T: untap target forest
1/1

Pretty good variant on llanowar elves.

Tetonic Edge is just bad. I mean, why print card that you already know they're bad? Its design is counterproductive too. Those kinds of lands need to be used when they're light on mana, else they're useless. Wasteland with a 1 mana tacked on the activation cost would already be playable but not "irrititating" like the real wasteland in slower formats. Add that restriction and ... bah.

DrJones

01-23-2010, 09:23 AM

That creature would be nuts even if it were not an elf.

Jon Stewart

01-23-2010, 09:53 AM

Searing Blaze RR
Instant (common)
Searing Blaze deals 1 damage to target player and 1 damage to target creature that player controls.
Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, Searing Blaze deals 3 damage to that player and 3 damage to that creature instead.

:eek: This card seems awesome in burn, goyf sligh and zoo decks.

Screw gaining 3 life (Lightning Helix), given how often I've had to use Lightning Bolt to take out a creature, I would take dealing 3 damage to a player AND one of his creatures any day of the week.

Quick Question: Can you legally play the card to deal 3 damage to a player if he doesn't control a creature?

Barook

01-23-2010, 09:58 AM

The elf is damn sexy with duals. Better than Llanowar Elves in most cases (except against LD).

This card also caught my interest:

Agadeem Occultist :2::b:
Creature - Human Shaman Ally (rare)
Tap: Put target creature card from an opponent's graveyard onto the battlefield under your control if its converted mana cost is less than or equal to the number of Allies you control.
0/2

Too bad all other black allies suck. Maybe combine it with some cheap, white allies?

uick Question: Can you legally play the card to deal 3 damage to a player if he doesn't control a creature?
Nope

Infinitium

01-23-2010, 10:01 AM

Quick Question: Can you legally play the card to deal 3 damage to a player if he doesn't control a creature?

No. If S/he sacrifices the critter in response it won't cause the spell to fizzle though. Flamebreak still seems better, although it's a possible sideboard card for creature decks that migh try to race you.

Jon Stewart

01-23-2010, 10:02 AM

Flamebreak costs RRR which makes it signifcantly less appealing to cast. Also, flamebreak hits you and your own creatures (not an issue for burn decks) but definately an issue for Zoo and Goyf Sligh decks.

This is the card that caught my eye...

Bloodhusk Ritualist 2B
Creature - Vampire Shaman (uncommon)
Multikicker
When Bloodhusk Ritualist enters the battlefield, target opponent discards a card for each time it was kicked.
2/2

Seems like a natural fit in any deck that plays Cabal Coffers (MBC, Train Wreck etc)

Groundswell G
Instant (common)
Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, that creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn instead.

I think this is superior to both Giant Growth and Might of Old Krosa as excellent green pump in aggressive decks.

Basilisk Collar 1
Artifact - Equipment (rare)
Equipped creature has deathtouch and lifelink.
Equip 2

It only bears mentions because it's tutorable with Trinket Mage, which is nice for when a single Tombstalker or Mystic Enforcer is holding back an entire army of Sea Stompy flyers, or just if you don't need a Chalice for whatever reason. Elves might appreciate being able to give their puny creatures deathtouch. Hell even giving Trinket Mage both Deathtouch and Lifelink kinda sorta makes it an actual threat! It also resolves Goyf vs. Goyf stalemates and giving Goyf lifelink is just straight up cruel.