[Article] Not Everyone Hates Legacy

[godryk]

I've just read this at blackborder.com (not that I knew that site existed, I just got linked by someone)...

Not Everyone Hates Legacy (http://www.blackborder.com/q/node/4603)

Joel Calafell inquires a series of pro players about their feelings and thoughts on Legacy, at the prospect of all the support Legacy is getting in 2010. You can read the thougths of Rasmus Sibast, Matej Zatlkaj, world champion André Coimbra, Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa, PT Austin champion Brian Kibler and Martin Juza.

Well, there's not very much we didn't knew... :tongue:

[GreatWhale]

That was awful, to sum it up Pros don't think Pros will have a hard time because pros have won in the past (no shit), the author and a few of the pro players don't actually own any cards and think Forces and Duals are "impossible to get"

Edit: oh yeah and to gather all of that you have to read some guys IM conversations unedited with people who didn't really want to talk to him.

[Aleksandr]

I read the openenig, than a half of the first interview, checked that all other interviews look the same and left the site.

[Mr.C]

I know for a fact PV hates legacy, and he is quite vocal about it.

[Amon Amarth]

This has to be one of the worst articles I have ever read. What a fucking mess.

[JeroenC]

This has to be one of the worst articles I have ever read. What a fucking mess.

This. I was hoping for an article, but calling this an article must require a lot of drugs.

[godryk]

Yeah I wasn't sure to call it an article... I just thought it was a interesting document to share with the community.

[Waikiki]

The impression I got is that the writer simply hates Legacy. Who starts an interview with the question "do you hate legacy?" Instead of "Whats your opinion on legacy?"

I understand pro's dont like such a wide open format since you will need to spend alot of time getting to know all the decks in the format. They will have to win on skills and the deck they manage to borrow I guess.

[Pltnmngl]

Wait...did the author just say that he didn't know what Canadian Threshold is? But he wrote a legacy article? :really:

[Otter]

More people who think that Legacy is impossible to play because they haven't noticed that you can build Merfolk for the same price as anything involving Baneslayers. Neat.

[Nihil Credo]

The fact that Calafell doesn't know anything about Legacy is something he says upfront and repeats several times. It's kind of the point of the whole article: "Hey guys, follow me around as I, the #1 Spanish pro, do a bit of social scouting about this Mysterious Beast called Legacy!"

It's not a terrible idea, but unfortunately all he does is an unreadable CTRL-C CTRL-V instead of editing the conversations and adding even a single line of his own thoughts post-chatting. Proof that Blackborder.com doesn't have anybody who could even remotely be called an editor, I guess.

[Koby]

I briefly skimmed the "article", and it seems like the people he talked to are apathetic to the format. Brain Kibler probably gave the most interesting responses because... well, he's a great fellow and actually looks at the format as a interesting challenge. The rest are too caught up in their own arrogance to care.

They are correct in one regard however: Legacy is a format full of misconceptions (just like Vintage). Perhaps the exposure the format gets about being ridiculous is casting it in a bad light for players looking to get in.

Any thoughts on this from more of you regular players with an established local group?

[gravemind123]

That isn't much of an article, and the author seems to dislike Legacy. He managed to find two people who dislike it, one who he already knew disliked it. I'm glad to hear that some pros like or at least don't mind the format, since the more popularity the better.

Also, I find it amusing that Martin Juza managed to scrub out before I did at GP:Chicago.

[caiomarcos]

I think this "article" is of a lot of value for us to get info and to get to know some different point of view, coming from what we can call the bulk of the pro or wannabe or semi pro community.
Legacy IS a beast in the eyes of the majority.
Their opinions matter the most.
Pros don't care or don't like legacy not because it is Legacy, but for other reasons that they mention like "I have to play it only for two GP in the year" and crap excuses like that.

We shouldn't be so shortsighted as those people were.
We should take notice of how limited our impact is and how limited our format is and realize that is not a problem per se.
Having 2 GPs a years is pretty good, comparing to 0 team GP, just like many of them complained.
Fuck it if the "pros" don't care about Lagacy. Since when getting pro points was the focus of this? Getting more events, like we are getting, is the most important thing. For whatever reasons this is being achieved. I'm sure it is not because of pros support. We can keep it going on.

Another thing, the author never had the intention to make it a staple Legacy article. He just wanted to show off how uneducated regular players are in regard to legacy, like he is and like the ones he interviewed are. For that I give him kudos, since it is one of the few windows to the regular pro players thought we Legacy players get.

What amazed me the most was not the article itself, but the comments showing how self-denying we are.

[mogote]

It looks like the author of the "article" hates Legacy more than all those he interviewed, which I found interesting. Also, he seems to be the one with the most issues regarding card availability. I think this could have been much better executed.

[Elfrago]

Now I got one more reason to move to Denmark.

[Mantis]

Now I got one more reason to move to Denmark.You mean besides it's the country with the highest concentration of hot chicks on the planet?

[godryk]

I've heard they have the highest tax rates in the western world, but, of course, with an outstanding social coverage.

[Zach Tartell]

I've always found that a good way to get an unbiased opinion of something is to pose a question to the effect of, "So, I know you hate this a lot and it sucks and it also raped your mother. Thoughts?"

[SpencerForHire]

I did glean one piece of information from this text. Thanks to some courteous comments by Kibler, I would feel confident in wagering that the combination of two new GPs and SCG's own efforts, there will be at least a small surge in the popularity of Legacy. It may not be largely noticeable, but this is the first step in a possible series of progression towards the format becoming more widely popular.

I mean, we did theorize that these two things would increase the notice of Legacy. Kibler shows that in perspective that we have pros (at least one or two) eye-ing this a bit more.

[Pastorofmuppets]

More people who think that Legacy is impossible to play because they haven't noticed that you can build Merfolk for the same price as anything involving Baneslayers. Neat.

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=487486

You can play 15-proxy Vintage for cheaper than Baneslayers.
Proxy the power, duals, Will, Extirpates, and Thoughtseizes. Nothing else in the deck costs over $10 except the Wastelands, which you need anyway.

[caiomarcos]

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=487486

You can play 15-proxy Vintage for cheaper than Baneslayers.
Proxy the power, duals, Will, Extirpates, and Thoughtseizes. Nothing else in the deck costs over $10 except the Wastelands, which you need anyway.

Good luck with that deck in the next GP.

[Volt]

Next article: Not Everyone Hates Lima Beans!

Me: Hey, excuse me, could I ask you a few questions?

Him: Well, I was on my way to the bathroom...

Me: C'mon, don't be such a little bitch. :-P

Him: Um, well, okay, I guess I could hold it for a few minutes. What do you want to know?

Me: Why do you hate lima beans?

Him: Lima beans?

Me: Yeah, lima beans. You know.

Him: Uh, well, who says I hate them? I think they're okay, actually. :)

Me: Seriously?!? You like lima beans? I think they're gross. ;-)

Him: Yeah. I mean, I don't eat them very often, but they're okay, I guess. Add a little butter and salt, and they're not bad at all.

Me: Okay then, so what's your favorite thing about lima beans?

Him: Um, I don't know. Look, I'm going to go now...

Me: Wait, one more thing?

Him: No. Stop following me!

[Anusien]

This was useful because it shows us what we need to overcome if we want Legacy to become a real PTQ or PT format. Just getting a few GPs isn't enough.

[MMogg]

This was useful because it shows us what we need to overcome if we want Legacy to become a real PTQ or PT format. Just getting a few GPs isn't enough.

You mean, egos?

[freakish777]

No, the perception that the cards are impossible to get.

Obviously they're not impossible to get, but stuff like the duals aren't exactly easy to get either.

Judge Foils definitely seem like the way to go for Wizards deciding they're reprinting anything.

[Michael Keller]

To be rather explicit about Legacy and this "article" all together: I don't give a damn what some "professional" Magic player thinks about Legacy, and neither should any of you.

All I saw when I checked that thing out was a rundown of this guy's accomplishments and really nothing more. Getting an outside perspective of the format is fine. But Legacy is not what it was several years ago and it is now widely recognized as a legitimate format by Wizards and people all over the world.

And I don't think I really care what this guy thinks about the format. What I care about hearing and reading are the endeavors of newer players who have never even played the game before (either sparsely or hearing about it through word of mouth) and want to try their hand and getting involved in a format where there is so much to learn and so many different opportunities to play whatever they want. This can be trying, but no one said anything worth learning would be easy; it's the nature of the game.

People who know how to play Magic and are obviously successful at it (like this guy) only use these as ego-boosters, nothing more. Maybe it's just me being the wild-card here, but it really doesn't matter to me.

I do think, however, that a lot of analogies to how we see and handle our everyday lives can be applied using a "Magic: The Gathering" theory based on simplistic principles, such as mimicry and social-standing (but that's a separate issue).

(Just sitting here saying to myself, "Professional Magic players"; absurd.)

[from Cairo]

I like Kibler's interview. He came across as open minded to the changes in Wizards distribution of GP formats. And he seemed like he kind "got it" in the sense of Legacy's appeal of playing with such a huge selection of cards and the nostalgia factor. Rasmus Sibast and Matej Zatlkaj also had a couple good observations, but I didn't feel like they articulated them as well.

As far as the article/interviews presentation it was awful, but I guess I'd prefer a cut/paste job than reading the author's bitching and moaning about it w/o the other pros' opinions voiced.

[Bardo]

Great idea; terrible execution. The questions were dumb as shit and the interviewer apparently doesn't own FoWs...

Without professional players, there would be no global tournament scene--so I'm curious about their opinions, since they're what allow premier tournaments to exist. Anyway, this is a pretty thin slice and doesn't mean much.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Good luck with that deck in the next GP.

So far testing says that nobody sees it coming. I'm hoping for the element of suprise. And to not run into fish. Is there a Vintage GP this year?
As for the article, I really didn't bother reading the whole thing. It was really redundant.

[FoolofaTook]

You mean, egos?

There's another factor in play with professionals though, which is the higher the power level of the cards the less their skill and knowledge really matter in the overall equation.

In a limited constructed environment a very skilled player has a significant advantage over people of average skills, because you normally can't just draw a card or get a sequence of great draws and blow away the opponent based largely on that and irrespective of skill levels.

As the power level of the cards ratchets up the component of the overall equation that reflects skills in isolation is reduced compared to the components that reflect card strength or luck.

[Otter]

There's another factor in play with professionals though, which is the higher the power level of the cards the less their skill and knowledge really matter in the overall equation.

In a limited constructed environment a very skilled player has a significant advantage over people of average skills, because you normally can't just draw a card or get a sequence of great draws and blow away the opponent based largely on that and irrespective of skill levels.

As the power level of the cards ratchets up the component of the overall equation that reflects skills in isolation is reduced compared to the components that reflect card strength or luck.

That's a terribly one-sided assessment. The high power level of legacy also means that your plays matter more, screw something up and it's more likely to directly just lose you the game. And skilled players in limited still have to deal with the kid that cracked open a Baneslayer, Fireball, and two Lightning Bolts.

[FoolofaTook]

That's a terribly one-sided assessment. The high power level of legacy also means that your plays matter more, screw something up and it's more likely to directly just lose you the game. And skilled players in limited still have to deal with the kid that cracked open a Baneslayer, Fireball, and two Lightning Bolts.

I should have said standard instead of limited constructed. The point is that predictability in terms of power levels between two decks is what a pro is looking for so that they can exploit the knowledge and skill that they have with minimal interference in the mix from differentials in the draws.

The high power level of Legacy also increases the chance that their opponent gets a nuts draw and blows them out before any of their skills can make a difference in the outcome.

[Phoenix Ignition]

The high power level of Legacy also increases the chance that their opponent gets a nuts draw and blows them out before any of their skills can make a difference in the outcome.

Which is why most pros play FoW or their own combo. A lucky draw almost never happens 2 out of 3 games in a round, so playskill makes a huge difference.

But I can see them not liking the fact that knowing every deck out there helps you a ton in this format.

[Solaran_X]

First off, I didn't like the misconception among the "pros" that the cards are hard to get (even I managed to recently pick up an entire playset of duals on eBay for a semi-affordable price) and that certain decks are overpowered (in particular the misconception that ANT is overpowered).

But the one comment that really struck it home for me is that the pros don't like being unable to sideboard against every possible deck they may face in an event. That, in my opinion, is a sign of health in a format - when there are so many viable decks that it becomes impossible to board answers against all of them.

[emidln]

First off, I didn't like the misconception among the "pros" that the cards are hard to get (even I managed to recently pick up an entire playset of duals on eBay for a semi-affordable price) and that certain decks are overpowered (in particular the misconception that ANT is overpowered).

But the one comment that really struck it home for me is that the pros don't like being unable to sideboard against every possible deck they may face in an event. That, in my opinion, is a sign of health in a format - when there are so many viable decks that it becomes impossible to board answers against all of them.

It's only impossible if you're playing a reactive deck. ANT has no problem addressing artifact/enchantment lock pieces, cb, and hate bears in the same sideboard. Maybe you should try a more powerful deck...

[Skeggi]

Sarcastic post about the article
I completely agree. That was one heck of a bad article. What annoys me the most is that the interviewer is extremely biased himself. God that was terribad.

[Solaran_X]

It's only impossible if you're playing a reactive deck. ANT has no problem addressing artifact/enchantment lock pieces, cb, and hate bears in the same sideboard. Maybe you should try a more powerful deck...
If ANT is that powerful, then why isn't it dominating the format?

[MMogg]

I completely agree. That was one heck of a bad article. What annoys me the most is that the interviewer is extremely biased himself. God that was terribad.

Yes, and not only was he biased, but also a bad interviewer. He asked Kibler about Legacy, to which the answer was that he had never played it before, and the follow-up question was about what he thinks of Legacy. :confused: The whole "article" was a bunch of dudes who have never played the format talking about it . . . damn, it could be a thread from The Source. :tongue:

[Maveric78f]

If ANT is that powerful, then why isn't it dominating the format?

It has problems to deal with:
- countermagics + hate permanents (CB, meddling mage)
- (heavy) discard + hate permanents + clock
- trinisphere + mana denial

[practical joke]

Horrible article I agree, but it does have some interesting points.

Pro players hardly have the time to get themselves adapted to the decks and will probably focus on DTB's ( as mentioned canadian *****, goblins, counterbalance and ANT)
however it seems that the pro's are not likely to be able to adapt to the slightly more rogue decks.
Chances are also very great, as the responses show, that only a few will come with an entirely new deck that's not working as intended or will net-deck something and test-play it. ( chances are big it'll be ANT or counterbalance. second is relatively easy to play for someone with pro-status. The first one will be played with some mistakes, as worlds showed us.)

I do think that the pro's could keep up with the players from the eternal format, but they lack experience in the small changes a deck could have or how the opposing deck could work from scratch.

To say ANT is overpowered goes a bit far, the deck is extremely good and nowadays well-adapted to hate. It's not indestructible so far.

[Valarne]

You mean besides it's the country with the highest concentration of hot chicks on the planet?

You're all welcome! Regular Legacy tournaments weekly and monthly, in Copenhagen. And yep, the girls are beautiful.

[Shugyosha]

It has problems to deal with:
- countermagics + hate permanents (CB, meddling mage)
- (heavy) discard + hate permanents + clock
- trinisphere + mana denial
-bad players

It has been the problem with most combo decks out there. Good ANT players can win through all this stuff (not always) but bad players even die in goldfish. I've rarely seen really good ANT players but those I saw really pushed the Deck through the Metagame.

[MattH]

I do think that the pro's could keep up with the players from the eternal format,
Heh. Are you at all familiar with the history of Legacy GPs? IIRC all four to date have been won by pros and pros have been over-represented in the T8s/T16s.

[johanessen]

-bad players
Seconded. Storm combo can go auto pilot in some games but there are matches that good combo players like johnny make the difference and go through. Similar cases are Ichorid and in a lesser way Aluren (well, Aluren is definetly a bad deck).

[Lothian]

Jon Sonne, Helmut Summersberger, Steve Sadin, Gabriel Nassif, those are all known pros and I don’t think either of them had much previous experience with the format.

Well, that sums it up.

Fact is Summersberger and Nassif are no beginners as we all know. I was in Lille GP and seen both play. Impressive stuff, they knew all of the cards since they are playing for YEARS !! No kiddies here for sure.

Nassif was really impressive playing one of the first foray at LotL deck and did use fow to the max against a ***** deck.

Fact is those Pros were starting their Pro career more than 10 years ago and went there for a reason: They knew all the cards and knew all the good mechanics from back then, plus their Pro concentration and massive experience.

Legacy GPs are won by pros who started early in Magic.

I remember an article about the legacy round at Worlds. Most of the younger Pro had to read every single card twice when played by an opponent.
Surely you won't win like that...

That's just the reason why the younger Pros are complaining - they have no chance

Not only you need a good deck, but you need to know other deck's strategies

Going for combo is the best option, as it tries to goldfish and doesn't care about the opponent deck. That's a brainless option, but won't save them from their lack of knowledge of the metagame

My opinion is a real Pro should know, play and enjoy any format. A pro who states he doesn't like Legacy isn't a Pro, just a chancer for the cash in draft.

Wizards might finally start to grasp it, and I would like to see Worlds played in all formats including Vintage.

Pros not owning the cards is such bullshit. You get a 40k check winning a Pro tour and can't afford to get a 4-of-anything in Legacy?

Bollocks !

[MMogg]

My opinion is a real Pro should know, play and enjoy any format. A pro who states he doesn't like Legacy isn't a Pro, just a chancer for the cash in draft.

Wizards might finally start to grasp it, and I would like to see Worlds played in all formats including Vintage.

Pros not owning the cards is such bullshit. You get a 40k check winning a Pro tour and can't afford to get a 4-of-anything in Legacy?

Bollocks !

I only kind of agree with this. At least, I could never fathom how someone whose life is so focused on Magic can A) not have a massive collection of 4 x everything, or B) not have access to 4 x everything. I'm not a pro, I'm just a run-of-the-mill player, but I held onto Entombs for years because of the off chance they'd be unbanned and playable again as a 4 of. You'd think those with a much richer knowledge of the game would be able to foresee better than I could.

But, on the other hand the truth is a lot of players are just in it to win, and who are we to criticize the motives of others?

[Artowis]

Well, that sums it up.

Fact is Summersberger and Nassif are no beginners as we all know. I was in Lille GP and seen both play. Impressive stuff, they knew all of the cards since they are playing for YEARS !! No kiddies here for sure.

Nassif was really impressive playing one of the first foray at LotL deck and did use fow to the max against a ***** deck.

Fact is those Pros were starting their Pro career more than 10 years ago and went there for a reason: They knew all the cards and knew all the good mechanics from back then, plus their Pro concentration and massive experience.

Legacy GPs are won by pros who started early in Magic.

I remember an article about the legacy round at Worlds. Most of the younger Pro had to read every single card twice when played by an opponent.
Surely you won't win like that...

That's just the reason why the younger Pros are complaining - they have no chance

Not only you need a good deck, but you need to know other deck's strategies

Going for combo is the best option, as it tries to goldfish and doesn't care about the opponent deck. That's a brainless option, but won't save them from their lack of knowledge of the metagame

My opinion is a real Pro should know, play and enjoy any format. A pro who states he doesn't like Legacy isn't a Pro, just a chancer for the cash in draft.

Wizards might finally start to grasp it, and I would like to see Worlds played in all formats including Vintage.

Pros not owning the cards is such bullshit. You get a 40k check winning a Pro tour and can't afford to get a 4-of-anything in Legacy?

Bollocks !
Wow, it's like somebody wrote a bizzaro response in the same idiotic tone as the article.