The Rock (and its variants)

[arebennian]

I could rattle on for a paragraph about what 'The Rock is and where it came from but you could simply read the rock primer for that so I won't bother; I'll just get to the point.

There are a hell of alot of Rock variants out there. Generally GBW, and adapted to the metagame. With this is mind, I think it would be interesting to open up some discussion in a single thread concerning all the variants at once.
Specifically:

A) Which deck has the most raw power
B) Which is the best in an unknown meta game
C) Which is the best variant for an Aggro//Control//Aggro-Control//Combo metagame



'Traditional' (GBw good stuff + Deed)
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=402087&postcount=373


'Aggro' (GBW good stuff w/out Deed)
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12794&highlight=survival+natural+order


Nightmare Rock (Recurring nightmare, although this used to go more with Survival)
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=381334&postcount=338


Natural Order Rock (Duh)
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14373


RockSur (Survival engine)
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13030


Gifts Rock (GBu for Gifts piles and losts of 1s)
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15245


Order/Survival(Not The Rock but I have seen a more Rock orientated list somewhere)
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12537&highlight=norwood


DISCUSS

[Maveric78f]

The traditionnal list is a good list.
The aggro list is definitely not Rock.
The Nightmare Rock list is awful. 2 Extirpate MD, WTF?
The 4 last are completely clunky and/or not Rock.

Rock concept is bad because it has no clock and it can't endorse the long term plan reliably in legacy (where life from the loam, gobs, survival, ... all have real long term game plans). All these lists tried to figure out how to be more aggroish or how to have a better long-term engine. In the end, they all lost the Rock raw power.

As Pox, the Rock is not a strong concept in legacy. They have always been hype and that's the only reason why we can see them regularly in top8.

[arebennian]

The traditionnal list is a good list.
The aggro list is definitely not Rock.
The Nightmare Rock list is awful. 2 Extirpate MD, WTF?
The 4 last are completely clunky and/or not Rock.
That is a fair enough call; I didn't dissect each one before I provided the link, I just used them as an example of the particular 'style'.


What I find more interesting is this statement:

Rock concept is bad because it has no clock and it can't endorse the long term plan reliably in legacy (where life from the loam, gobs, survival, ... all have real long term game plans). All these lists tried to figure out how to be more aggroish or how to have a better long-term engine. In the end, they all lost the Rock raw power.
This is the sort of comment I was looking to spark the discussion, but my understanding of the Archetype//Deck is lacking.
Is this assessment the general consensus, or do people think that these particular lists are bad and the possibility of using some form of Engine or 'Win' card dilutes The Rock to such a degree it is better off without one?

[Skeggi]

Rock concept is bad because it has no clockI disagree. The Rock plays Tarmogoyf and other creatures like Tombstalker, meaning you can set a tight enough clock.

it can't endorse the long term plan reliably in legacyI disagree. Where Aggro Loam, Survival and Landstill may have better long term game plans, The Rock's long term game plan is better than Tempo Thresh or Merfolk for instance. You can argue about Goblins; Goblins can go nuts lategame with a topdecked Ringleader, but that's hardly a plan. Where The Rock has Pernicious Deeds to wipe, Witness and Stronghold to recur and Elspeth to become stronger and stronger.

The power in The Rock is that it can adapt to the situation. You can play aggro, control or disrupt with the very same deck. Your lategame plan is worse than Landstill's, so against Landstill you want to go aggro. Against Tempo Thresh, all you need to do is enter midgame with 10 or more life and you'll be fine, because your mid and lategame plan is just so much better. So you can play the control deck there. Against Combo you want to play the dirupt factor, however this maintains the worst match-up for The Rock.

This is also why you see so many versions of The Rock; but they all basically have the same 3 elements in them: aggro, control and disruption. The Rock does not excel at any of these points, but doesn't need to because it can adapt its plan.

[Maveric78f]

It depends on what you call The Rock. If you say that tarmogoyf and Stalker are The Rock elements, then we are not talking about the same concept. When I read you talking about Rock, I always feel like you're talking about a G splashed deadguy ale. Poison cloud, Deed, Wall of roots, birds, veteran explorer, Yavimaya Elder, Krosan Tusker are The Rock cards. Tarmogoyf and Stalker are vanilla creatures that The Rock needs to be viable. This was my point.

[Nelis]

The rock is a deck with a strong midgame in the colors BGx, which usually contains a strong disruption packet. You can't really judge a deck only because of the creatures it runs since that will always vary (with the exception of tribal decks of course).

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm really surprised at the hate that the rock is getting from Maveric here, although not surprised at the same time because I'm assuming that it was a total knee-jerk reaction without any legitimate thought involved. The rock is consistent, has a decent matchup against everything (depending on the variant you're playing), and provides recurring card advantage that ensures a late-game win if unanswered (but no one plays maindeck graveyard hate anymore, so G1 you can definitely pull this off).

I've done some extensive testing on rock variants lately, sparked mainly because of this thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15669 . Now that's not a rock list, but I felt like a rock shell to that list would provide a much better deck in general.

Specifically I took out Kiyamaro's and Dark Confidants for Ohran Viper (wtf? really?) and Eternal Witnesses. The Sylvan libraries got dropped for SDTs and I dropped some cards for BoP, Deeds, and Vindicates. Anyway, the point is I made myself a deck with 12 creatures that answer the biggest ubiquitous creature in the format, with enough removal and recurring threats to ensure a victory. Through testing I found that even though I could pull of consistent wins through grinding with small creatures, I still couldn't handle the threat of "Oops I win" decks.

So my testing moved on to the main "Oops I win" deck, NO rock. This deck has essentially dropped some of its early control to improve its matchup against all of the other slower decks. NO provides a stupid threat that everyone needs to save countermagic for, while Eternal Witness ensures that the opponent can't hold off your hydra forever. This deck has put up multiple good showings, and an especially impressive 70 man victory: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29980 Instead of having to win in the mid to late game like previous rock decks, the possibility for a 5th turn win is not even that hard to accomplish.

This deck is especially interesting for the fact that it has maindeck extirpates and 4 Yavimaya Elders. I don't know why Extirpate is so harshly viewed on these forums, but taking out FoW ensures you can get Progenitus out, and vastly improves your matchup against Ichorid, Loam, Tempo Thresh (debatable, but you can G1 extirpate a tropic and win instantly), anything that uses (mystical or enlightened) tutor effects, and marginally helps against almost every other deck. The Elders greatly improve your card quality if you do have to get to the late game.

So overall I'd have to say that NO rock is the only viable deck if you want to win a tournament, due to its surprise "Oops I win factor," but in general, almost all rock decks have ~50% or more matchups across the board so will all do relatively well. The only problem is that they have very few matchups where they do better than 60%, so if you take this to a many round tournament you'll likely end up bubbling out of top 8.

[Maveric78f]

You really think that Natural Order is unexpected in a deck packing witness, birds and Kitchen Finks?

But you're right, I've been harsh. Pox is way worse than The Rock.

[Phoenix Ignition]

You really think that Natural Order is unexpected in a deck packing witness, birds and Kitchen Finks?

But you're right, I've been harsh. Pox is way worse than The Rock.

No, I never said unexpected anywhere in my post. I said it's an "Oops I win" factor. Most people aren't surprised by it anymore, but you can have 0 cards in hand and only a BoP on the board, facing down 2 goyfs and still top deck a NO and easily win. The opponent can outplay you or merely outdraw you and obtain board position into situations like this, but you still have a single card that wins you the game.

"Well it looks like I'll have to scoop, lemme just see what I draw... Oops, never mind, I guess I win!"

No other cards like this exist right now, unless you count hardcasting a Dragon Overlord or something like that.

[Maveric78f]

So overall I'd have to say that NO rock is the only viable deck if you want to win a tournament, due to its surprise "Oops I win factor,"


No other cards like this exist right now, unless you count hardcasting a Dragon Overlord or something like that.
Jitte, Deed, Elspeth, ... Well it depends a lot on which decks you are facing and what's the game state.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Jitte, Deed, Elspeth, ... Well it depends a lot on which decks you are facing.

Jitte doesn't help if you just have a BoP on board facing down something like double goyfs. Deed doesn't win you games, although it can turn the tide of them in your favor (but again, it doesn't say Oops I win), and Elspeth is not able to face down more than 1 creature, regardless of her power.

But obviously you know what I mean, and are just trying to derail my point by throwing good cards in a list. Oops I win cards are ones that bring you back from an almost unwinnable board state, and -2/-2 or +4 life after trading a creature of yours, symmetric destruction of a board, and a 1/1 a turn don't do this.

[MrShine]

I've been playing the Rock for a while now, and I agree with phoenix here; NO/Progenitus gives the deck exactly what it needs - a surefire way to win the game after playing a disruption/control plan - and is perhaps the only viable archetype in competitive legacy outside of a loam control type Rock.

However, I don't think the deck necessarily needs to drop early disruption in order to play NO; the list I have atm is actually tuned for the early game, albeit sacrificing some of its lategame power. What to do with the shell, though, is really just a question of the meta on expects to face.

Moreover, I don't think you can typify the Rock with cards like quote: "Poison cloud (?), Deed, Wall of roots, birds, veteran explorer, Yavimaya Elder, Krosan Tusker..." in a format like legacy, because suboptimal cards like Y Elder and Tusker (where is this coming from?) just can't cut it when compared to the general power level of the format (read: Tarmogoyf). Why should a label justify the exclusion of cards like Goyf or tombstalker if they help the deck win?

[Unknown2]

wow, what's with all the hate on Rock?
I've reliably been making finals of 30+ people and came top 32 at a 150+ tournament with my rock variant.

Creature base includes:
tarmo, bob, finks, pridemage, noble hierarch.
Removal:
vindicate, deed, smother, stp

As well as thoughtseize, jitte and other goodies.

It has a really good game against CB/top, with finks and SB goodies, its game against zoo is great, it smashes goblins. Pretty decent match against everything else. Combo is admittedly its worst matchup, but that's what the sideboard is for.

[Skeggi]

It depends on what you call The Rock. If you say that tarmogoyf and Stalker are The Rock elements, then we are not talking about the same concept. When I read you talking about Rock, I always feel like you're talking about a G splashed deadguy ale. Poison cloud, Deed, Wall of roots, birds, veteran explorer, Yavimaya Elder, Krosan Tusker are The Rock cards. Tarmogoyf and Stalker are vanilla creatures that The Rock needs to be viable. This was my point.
If you read the first list in the OP you'll have an understanding of what my idea of The Rock is. And we do have a different opinion of what The Rock is. The way I see it, I have a view of what The Rock is and you have a view of what The Rock used to be. I'm not saying the deck must contain Tombstalker, however I do think you need some sort of extra clock next to Tarmogoyf.

P.S. I don't like Natural Order for this deck. It takes up slots and is not good in a counter heavy meta. Let the flaming begin; I'll put on my retard flaming suit. Or was it flame retardant?

[Maveric78f]

Jitte doesn't help if you just have a BoP on board facing down something like double goyfs. Deed doesn't win you games, although it can turn the tide of them in your favor (but again, it doesn't say Oops I win), and Elspeth is not able to face down more than 1 creature, regardless of her power.

But obviously you know what I mean, and are just trying to derail my point by throwing good cards in a list. Oops I win cards are ones that bring you back from an almost unwinnable board state, and -2/-2 or +4 life after trading a creature of yours, symmetric destruction of a board, and a 1/1 a turn don't do this.

Why are you only looking at the board state. The game state as whole is important. If you're low in PV, jitte is far better than Natural Order. If you're completely controlled by the opponent (humility in play, needle on deed, countertop), Elspeth is the best. If you're completely swarmed, Deed is the solution. Natural Order is definitely not more a "oups I win" card than the ones I mentionned.

Natural Order is good at winning fast but is it really what The Rock wants in the first place? Maybe, I have the wrong tendancy to consider it as a control deck. Most of all, I think that control deck kills must also be control cards (like Elspeth, Qasali or even Witness). Natural Order is a risky and comboish card. I don't think it's made for this deck.


If you read the first list in the OP you'll have an understanding of what my idea of The Rock is. And we do have a different opinion of what The Rock is. The way I see it, I have a view of what The Rock is and you have a view of what The Rock used to be. I'm not saying the deck must contain Tombstalker, however I do think you need some sort of extra clock next to Tarmogoyf.
I said that your deck is the best in the list. Mostly because it has Elspeth, which makes the opponent overextend and your deeds make CA. It's also a tremendous kill. I would even dare to play 3 or 4 Elspeth in The Rock personnally.

I'm still a bit embarrassed about calling it The Rock (less than 4 witness and 4 deeds).

[Skeggi]

Why are you only looking at the board state. The game state as whole is important. If you're low in PV, jitte is far better than Natural Order. If you're completely controlled by the opponent (humility in play, needle on deed, countertop), Elspeth is the best. If you're completely swarmed, Deed is the solution. Natural Order is definitely not more a "oups I win" card than the ones I mentionned.
Truths. On a sidenote, you shouldn't play BoP anyway.

I would even dare to play 3 or 4 Elspeth in The Rock personnally.
Me too, I've put in a third in the meantime. Tried a fourth, seems a bit too much.

I'm still a bit embarrassed about calling it The Rock (less than 4 witness and 4 deeds).
Well, the deck has evolved, and will evolve some more in the future probably. The speed of the meta has improved and Deed is sometimes too slow (don't get me wrong, it's still incredibly powerful), while Witness too often is a 2/1 for 3 mana that recurs something not worth recurring.

[Pulp_Fiction]

As far as defining The Rock archetype, lets just say B/G midrange control that occassionally splashes another color. It is a board control deck that plays the most cost effective creatures and runs the best spot removal in the game.

It doesn't have to play Deed but the real question is why would you not run it? I used to play Rock all the time and would say the archetype is far from dead. I even made it to a top 4 split at a GP Atlanta Legacy side event as well as had a lot of success at my local card shop with a B/G/w build. The only problem with the decks is that they have immense problems with combo and Goblins is quite difficult without a fast start or StP on Lackey. Everything else you have a pretty solid matchup against, that is the thing about these decks, you always have a fighting chance.

As far as best variants, it would be whatever combination of cards wins in your meta. Do you have to have Natural Order, absolutely not. But if it works in your meta keep playing it. The deck has incredible adaptability. If I had to choose, I would say the most solid and consistent version is the B/G/w build with Doran, Hierarch, STE, 6x StP, and Top.

[Skeggi]

The deck has incredible adaptability.
I like quoting for truth. So there. :smile:

[Maveric78f]

The deck has incredible adaptability.

Quote for twisted truth.

Indeed, I think that a good The Rock deck needs adaptability or it's bad. Awfully bad actually. As you are good deck builders, you have incorporated adaptability into it, with Elspeth or Crime/Punishement, for instance.

[Benie Bederios]

@Maveric78f

First you say the Rock is bad, because it has no clock, later you say Natural Order is Bad, because you doubt if the Rock needs a faster clock. Could you elaborate that?


Benie

[Maveric78f]

I say that The Rock (my understanding at least) is a control deck. It's faster than Landstill. As it used to be (see lists 2 or 3 years ago), it's not competitive anymore because the Witness/Tusker/Volrath late game plan is weaker than most of aggro-control late game plan (Life/Survival/CounterTop/CountrysideCrusher/KnightReliquary) and some game strategies appeared that Rock can't handle MD (NO, reanimation in addition to already existing Tendrils). In comparison, Landstill has a strong late game plan with humility/Elpeth/academy ruins recursion and it can handle NO with Humility/Wrath and reanimation with Cunning Wish and even Tendrils with counterbalance (sometimes). Even if The Rock plays a lot of creatures you don't care to sacrifice, adding NO to The Rock is dyssinergic since NO is not a control card and control decks need kills that are control cards.

But if you play a list that you call the Rock with Tarmogoyf, KnightReliquary, Qasali, Doran, Stalker, etc... and you chose to add Natural Order, I see no problem to this. It's just, I would never call it The Rock but BGw good-stuff aggro-combo.

[Citrus-God]

The only reason why Landstill is a better late game deck than The Rock is because Landstill not only runs raw card advantage, but also has redundancy. The Rock is a midgame deck, and has to juggle between discard, removal and threats, which are all very different.

However, NO is not a bad card in The Rock. NOing for Progenitus just means you win, which isn't bad in a control deck. For instance, Tinker/Colossus in a Drain deck would be considered worthless? I'm sorry, but those cards randomly steal games; when you can't play your basic game plan of "not losing," you should be trying to win. Even Landstill adopts that principal for match ups like Survival and Aggro Loam, by hardcasting DoJ for two Angel tokens. NO might be one of the best answers The Rock has to keep itself in the format. It may not be an Elspeth, but it's definitely much more scary to sit across from a Progenitus than an Elspeth.

[paK0]

NOing for Progenitus just means you win, which isn't bad in a control deck.

This, if I have a 10/10 pro everything in play I don't care what kind of deck I am, I'm just happy that I won.

[Phoenix Ignition]

This, if I have a 10/10 pro everything in play I don't care what kind of deck I am, I'm just happy that I won.

And the fact that there is obvious synergy with Eternal Witness and NO, Kitchen Finks and NO, and even BoP and NO (who gives a crap about my 0/1 flier after I already make plenty of mana) means that this deck even provides a good shell for it.

[grahf]

But if you play a list that you call the Rock with Tarmogoyf, KnightReliquary, Qasali, Doran, Stalker, etc... and you chose to add Natural Order, I see no problem to this. It's just, I would never call it The Rock but BGw good-stuff aggro-combo.

I don't understand... the colors are the same, the support cards are largely the same, only the creatures have changed. And of course they should change, the format is not the same as it was 5 years ago and Wizards keeps printing better dudes. Isn't "The Rock" is just a shorthand for "BGw good-stuff" anyways? The names we make up for decks are just conveniences, I think getting caught up in worrying whether something really is or isn't a certain deck is missing the point.

[hi-val]

Rock has this awful time stopping topdecks from the opponent. I've played many games with it where you've got things locked up, then the opponent rips Armageddon or Natural Order or Swords to Plowshares and you're just out of it. This can be remedied by two things:

1. Blue cards for counterspells. I think Negate is a fine guy.

2. A great draw engine that allows for rebounding when you lose all your lands or your attackers.

Also, Gifts Rock all the way, baby : )

[FieryBalrog]

Rock has a great draw engine in Confidant/Top.

I don't think splashing blue is worth it :p

I also really like Elspeth in the deck. Elspeth is ridiculously resilient, is OK when you're losing, pulls you way ahead when its even and can also accelerate your win by a couple of turns...

[Moczoc]

Quote for twisted truth.
Indeed, I think that a good The Rock deck needs adaptability or it's bad. Awfully bad actually. As you are good deck builders, you have incorporated adaptability into it, with Elspeth or Crime/Punishement, for instance.


Rock has a great draw engine in Confidant/Top.
I also really like Elspeth in the deck. Elspeth is ridiculously resilient, is OK when you're losing, pulls you way ahead when its even and can also accelerate your win by a couple of turns...



But if you play a list that you call the Rock with Tarmogoyf, KnightReliquary, Qasali, Doran, Stalker, etc... and you chose to add Natural Order, I see no problem to this. It's just, I would never call it The Rock but BGw good-stuff aggro-combo.


I wonder how a list of this modernized version of GBW Aggro/Control (-> The Rock) would look like.
I made a first try:

Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Doran, the Siege Tower (maybe 1 KotR?)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks (maybe 2/2 split with Witness?)
1 Progenitus

Spells
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant (too much?)
4 Natural Order
2 Crime/Punishment
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

Lands
2 Plains
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy


SB:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 "slots open"


-Doran is necessary as he is the biggest beater for cmc3. Casted off Hierarch and followed by Elspeth he can beat for 9 on turn 3 ... flying. He also improves the Goblin Matchup.
-Crime//Punishment is better than EE because we have the colored mana and don't play Bob. Also Crime doesn't affect Elspeth and Punishment is a strong lategame-topdeck.
-Duress is not included because you can't discard you Prog. with it.

.. 61 cards because I nearly forgot Progenitus :)

[Lcpdenijs]

I was wondering why this deck type (The Rock) isnt mentioned in the Decks to Beat or Established decks forums.
Or am I just not looking good enough?

[RogueMTG]

I was wondering why this deck type (The Rock) isnt mentioned in the Decks to Beat or Established decks forums.
Or am I just not looking good enough?

Well, it's not in DtB because it's awful. But it does have it's own thread in Established:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11737

[Maveric78f]

I wonder how a list of this modernized version of GBW Aggro/Control (-> The Rock) would look like.
I made a first try:

Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Doran, the Siege Tower (maybe 1 KotR?)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks (maybe 2/2 split with Witness?)
1 Progenitus

Spells
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant (too much?)
4 Natural Order
2 Crime/Punishment
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy

Lands
2 Plains
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy


SB:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 "slots open"


-Doran is necessary as he is the biggest beater for cmc3. Casted off Hierarch and followed by Elspeth he can beat for 9 on turn 3 ... flying. He also improves the Goblin Matchup.
-Crime//Punishment is better than EE because we have the colored mana and don't play Bob. Also Crime doesn't affect Elspeth and Punishment is a strong lategame-topdeck.
-Duress is not included because you can't discard you Prog. with it.

.. 61 cards because I nearly forgot Progenitus :)
Definitely a deck where Tarmogoyf is bad. Play top, witness, more Qasali. I don't know. What it Tarmogoyf for?

[arebennian]

Definitely a deck where Tarmogoyf is bad. Play top, witness, more Qasali. I don't know. What it Tarmogoyf for?
Blocking opposing Goyfs! ;-)

[coraz86]

Definitely a deck where Tarmogoyf is bad. Play top, witness, more Qasali. I don't know. What it Tarmogoyf for?

It's for punching people in the head, since Rock is one of the few decks that has space for Volrath's Stronghold and you can keep bringing them back after they've died/been countered. I'd rather be recurring Goyf so I can have mana open to Deed again or Smother or whatever, instead of recurring threats like Loxodon Hierarch or Terravore that are more mana-intensive. I guess you could run Gigapede and Worm Harvest too, but I personally am not comfortable relying on things like those.

I think part of the reason it's not in the DTB forum, besides the fact that it is unfortunately not good enough in Legacy, is the same problem Survival and Aggro Loam/CAL are having; there are ten million different ways to build Rock, and few of them are decidedly wrong. (See the deck that just cropped up in the Pox thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15846) for an interesting example.) It's not a deck like Thresh or Dreadstill, where there's a definitive nucleus of cards that makes the deck and then a handful of floating slots based on anticipated meta/pilot's taste, so it's harder to identify and harder still to have a coherent discussion about.

Also, Landstill is basically Rock, but a lot better. (Sadly, also exponentially more pricy, but it's not a perfect world we live in anyway.)