[DECK] Jund Zoo

[Kanabo]

hey guys, i have another deck i would like help on. I was thinking about how good the jund deck was for standard and was questioning how good it would be in legacy. so, I researched a little and came up with a decklist that could maybe use some changes. here is the decklist that I was inspired from: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29360

and here is the deck I thought would have some success:

Lands:22
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded foothills
2 Verdant catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain

Creatures: 23
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Bloodhall Ooze
4 Kederekt Parasite

Spells: 15
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
4 Aether Vial
3 Sensei's Divining Top.

Sideboard: 15 (duh)
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Leyline of the void/ Tormods Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
2 Needle

But I still have a few questions (will have more as time goes on and i test more):
should tombstalker be added? the list runs confidant so idk

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I've loved Jund Aggro since before it was called Jund, and i tried to make it work a long time ago, but it's just hard.

I would cut the 4 Wasteland. It's just my personal preference that if you aren't running them combined with other cards then they are shots in the dark and can sometimes fuck over your 3 color manabase.

Putrid Leech seems like he could find a spot in here as well. Aether Vial seems slow since you wanna aggro out and stuff.

Those are just some thoughts from me! :D

[Kanabo]

Thank you! the reason I have Wasteland in there is My preference, but I do know what you are saying. They aren't really a problem since almost all of my spells/creatures are mono colored and require only 1 color to be cast. the vials help crank out 4 creatures on turn 2 and save me mana to cast burn/top.

[Ciberon]

Looks more solid than the other attempts I've seen. How has Kederekt Parasite been working out for you? At a first sight, it seems like he could be cut for something better.

[Aggro_zombies]

Parasite and Ooze are probably worse than Bloodbraid Elf and Kird Ape. Sprouting Thrinax might actually be quite good here as it's a tremendous pain to deal with unless you point a Swords/Path at it, which isn't very satisfying when you're also staring down Tarmogoyf or Bob card advantage.

The deck needs discard to be competitive. Duress and Thoughtseize are the minimum, but if you can make it work, Hymn is a pretty good analogue to Blightning.

If you're looking to model this off of Standard Jund, remember that that deck's strength comes in large part of resilience and the ability to generate card advantage out of everything. If you're trying to do that, this might be interesting:

4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 Sprouting Thrinax
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Terminate
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Badlands
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

...or something. Some of the Chain Lightnings should probably be cut for more big guys.

[Kanabo]

well I'd rather have consistant damage than a bunch of big beaters that take a while to get out.
though, I would have to agree that i could add in a set of thoughtseizes since i already have them.

[nodahero]

Not to hope on some band wagon here but... I fail to see what the inital Jund aggro deck offers in comparison to Naya Zoo.

Your deck seems signifcantly slower with your only advantage being the inclusion of Confidant.

In an aggro deck you want to keep the land count low but running Top means you want to feed mana into it. Without an Aether Vial inplay Top seems like it would often sit idly by.

Kederkt Parasite looks good in theory but far to often is horrid in reality. The same is true for Bloodhall Ooze.

I mean no disrespect. I am always happy to have a mature debate on card choice. I am human and I may have missed any number of things.

[Aggro_zombies]

Kederkt Parasite looks good in theory but far to often is horrid in reality. The same is true for Bloodhall Ooze.
No, you're probably right. Bloodhall Ooze is pretty awful on its own and will require two other creatures in play to grow at its maximum rate given the OP's list. It also sits as a 1/1 for a full turn at least, and most decks can deal with that in this format. In all honest, if I was looking for a 1/1 for one mana that grows, I'd much rather run Scute Mob because at least that creature's growth mode, once achieved, will almost always be on, and it grows a hell of a lot faster, too. Scute Mob is pretty much unplayable in Legacy; this guy isn't even playable in Standard.

Parasite is more interesting on the face of it because it turns Brainstorms into self-Lightning Bolts and punishes the hell out of control. That said, on the play it will start pinging on your opponent's second draw step at the earliest, and on the draw it starts even later. This assumes both that you land Parasite on turn one and a red creature on turn two, which you have a decent chance of doing given the 11 red dorks in the OP's list. However, again, Parasite is a 1/1 for one that depends on other creatures to actually do anything relevant, and one damage at a time is not really tremendously relevant to this deck. Both this and Ooze fall on the "cute but bad" side of the spectrum.

I actually tested the list I posted previously a bit and noticed a few things about it: Bloodbraid Elf is not that great and its card advantage is redundant with Bob anyway, Grim Lavamancer is actually quite some good, Thrinax is also pretty good, and Vampire Nighthawk is really awesome in this deck. I made some changes to reflect that and ended up with the following:

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Sprouting Thrinax

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Badlands
4 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold

[nodahero]

As a quick aside Scute Mob does actually see play in competeive standard. It is a singleton tutor target in "boros deck wins" off of Ranger of Eos. I have actually been testing Scute Mob in an Aggro Loamish shell for a bit and have had fairly good results actually.

Back to the relevant stuff... I actually really like your current list a fair bit. I do think it should be noted that BBE may be better than Confidant should this deck get any regular play. The logic behind this is very basic... Possibly to basic. It seems to me that this deck is just a pile of moderately good cards without confidant to fuel the deck.

If we except the previous argument then BBE would be a significantly better "card advantage engine" because it provides both card advantage and tempo not to mention a larger body.

Though now in hindsight I am actually more suspicious of Mancer not pulling his own weight as opposed to Confidant. They both draw a bulleye on themselves but I would THINK that the 2 damage will not be very relevant. I have RARELY EVER actually used him but I fail to see where he would shine outside of picking off the occasional lord from Merfolk. Is that an accuarte conclusion or is his ability to fry opponents actually more significant than the added card draw you will get from a confidant?

I make the argument for Confidant instead of Mancer in lists runninng BBE because:

it seems better in the curve
both creatures ability are activate one turn after the creature is in play but confidants cannot be needled nor does it require mana in a mana hungry deck
Confidant does not shrink your goyfs to net you advantage (Mancer's ability to shrink opposing Goyfs is negated because it also shrinks yours)
Confidant can deal as much damage every turn as Mancer without costing mana and without shrinking Goyf
Confidant creates more actual card advantage than Mancer could

What does everyone else think about that?

[Aggro_zombies]

Confidant and BBE basically do the same thing: namely, generate more than one card per turn while using only one card to do so. The difference is that Confidant is repeatable and in the deck's main color, whereas BBE is a one-shot deal that will often die in its first combat foray. Repeatability is a big issue for this deck, as it really wants the card advantage to differentiate itself from your typical Zoo lists.

Even in the scenarios where Bob dies without replacing himself, you're still getting card parity and baiting a removal spell. However, thanks to the discard, Bob tends to have a little bit better battlefield life expectancy than you might think.

Lavamancer does a number of things. First, it grinds down the opponent's life total over time, which is relevant since this deck's creatures are smaller than Zoo's on average. Second, it can be aimed at your opponent's Tarmogoyfs to act as a quasi-exalted bonus (in other words, it wins Tarmogoyf wars). It kills virtually all of the utility creatures in the format, which are generally X/1s or X/2s.

This deck is based pretty closely on the philosophy that makes Jund in Standard tick: card advantage through resilient threats and a large series of 2-for-1s. Bob, Jitte, Hymn, and Lavamancer serve as card advantage while VNH, Tarmogoyf, and Thrinax serve as resilient threats (although just about anything wearing a Jitte is going to be a threat in combat).

[Roman Candle]

3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Sprouting Thrinax

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Badlands
4 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Have you thought about Unearth?

[Barook]

Have you thought about Unearth?
Wouldn't Reanimate be much better, stealing your opponents or bringing back your own Goyfs? :eyebrow:

[Roman Candle]

Wouldn't Reanimate be much better, stealing your opponents or bringing back your own Goyfs? :eyebrow:

The life cost of Reanimate is pretty significant now that Zoo is the most dominant deck, especially when we're already sporting Thoughtseizes and Bobs. Plus, Unearth cycles, which is relevant a surprising amount of the time.

[nodahero]

As a quick FYI I must respectfully disagree that Unearth is better than Reanimate.

While this is significantly more opinion based than anything I can back it up.
If you were to get either one off of a Confidant and then cast it you will have lost on AVERAGE 3 life both way. The reason reanimate wins out here is because of the lower cost to cast and the added versatitly of getting a randomly busted critters from our opponent. Not to mention it is easier to get 1 mana then to get 3.

Also in most cases the cycling on Unearth will be fairly pointless. You would cycle it to draw a card you need but the card you need is often something that even if you draw you will not be able to play since you just used up 2 mana in a mana tight deck. If you want the option to find stuff I would swap Unearth for something more in the veins of Magma Jet. Jet allows you to win Tarmo wars primarily while also fixing our draws significantly.

Personally I would still rather have reanimate due to its ability to just randomly dominate a game out of left field.

[Roman Candle]

While this is significantly more opinion based than anything I can back it up.
If you were to get either one off of a Confidant and then cast it you will have lost on AVERAGE 3 life both way. The reason reanimate wins out here is because of the lower cost to cast and the added versatitly of getting a randomly busted critters from our opponent. Not to mention it is easier to get 1 mana then to get 3.

Unearth costs 1 mana. What exactly are you talking about?

[nodahero]

hmm... RTFC... I guess I shoulda done that. My mistake. Even including my stupidity I still support the added versatility of Reanimate over Unearth.

[JudasKilled]

The deck seems very slow by legacy standards. Most of your threats our 3 drops and yer only early game is discard and maybe terminate. You need more 1 drop threats.

[thefreakaccident]

Destructive flow?

Fits the color combo... And helps an aggressive type zoo deck keep control and agro-control at bay.

Sprouting Thanix (sp?) also has extreme synergy with Cabal therapy... Perhaps you guys should look into that.

[FieryBalrog]

Kederekt Parasite is hideously bad in every format in existence. Especially this one. I fail to see what a one mana 1/1 who occasionally pings your opponent for 1 a turn when you have a red creature out is doing in a deck that needs to power out efficient, nasty beaters. I mean even Wild Nacatl is better in this deck even if you can't make it a 3/3, and Putrid Leech is great.

Bloodhall Ooze is only incredibly bad, not hideously bad. A one mana 1/1 who needs you to keep out other creatures to grow slowly? Both these guys are begging to get reduced to crap when your opponent paths your Grim lavamancer (who is one of 8 red sources in the entire deck who turn your Kederekt Parasite from a 1/1 into essentially a 2/2) or your Tarmogoyf (1 of 12 guys who can turn on Bloodhall Ooze... 4 of which are the horrible Kederekt Parasite).

Building Jund Zoo means you want access to Confidant and are willing to give up access to a full-power Wild Nacatl, Qasali Pridemage, Lightning Helix, Knight of the Reliquary and Woolly Thoctar. I don't think thats a good trade, but I would rather run something like:

4x Dark Confidant
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Kird Ape
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Putrid Leech
2x Sprouting Thrinax
2x Burning-Tree Shaman

4x Lightning Bolt
2x Chain Lightning
1x Fireblast
4x Terminate (meh replacement for Path to Exile)
2x Sylvan Library (like Top, but better in Zoo)
2x Umezawa's Jitte

[eq.firemind]

Following the logic behind KotR in Naya Zoo, I can advise you to try Countryside Crusher in Jund Aggro.
The deck is generally slower than Naya Zoo (we can't replace Nacatl), but has better lategame via Confidant (by the way, Bob itself replaces Library), so Top is not as horrible as it looks like. Crusher also benefits from Top 'cause with both in play you can effectively clear your topdecks from lands (you don't need more than 3 lands anyway) while gaining punch power. Also, turn 1 mountain => Top is a very sneaky move :smile:

[FieryBalrog]

Why not just play Aggro-Loam then and run Devastating Dreams instead of weaker creatures and burn?

I suppose you could build a "Loam-less" Aggro Loam which would be Jund colors, with burn replacing the Loam and Wish.

4x Mox Diamond

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Countryside Crusher
4x Dark Confidant
3x Tombstalker
1x Terravore
1x Eternal Witness

3x Duress
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Chain Lightning
1x Fireblast
3x Devastating Dreams
2x Sensei's Divining Top

2x Tranquil Thicket
2x Forgotten Cave
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Taiga
3x Badlands
2x Bayou
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Volrath's Stronghold

[eq.firemind]

I don't know how can Loamless AggroLoam perform, but I think we need to not move too far away from aggro deck.

Something like this:

LANDS (21)

1-DROPS (22)
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Rancor
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Chain Lightning

2-DROPS (14)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Oona's Prowler/Putrid Leech
2 Terminate
2 Price of Progress

3-DROPS (3)
3 Countryside Crusher

[Burrito]

Played this list the other day at our local tournament:

Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Countryside Crusher
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
2 Terminate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Putrefy
2 Blightning
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Garruj Wildspeaker

Lands
4 Taiga
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Forest
9 Fetch

Sideboard

2 Blightning
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Extirpate
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Krosan Grip

I went 2-1, winning against Elves and Deadguy, and losing against AnT. Not really a test for the deck, but it felt solid. Blightning was very good every time I played it. The random Garruk was in it because I couldn't find my forth Bloodbraid Elf.

[from Cairo]

Was Putrefy ever better than Maelstrom Pulse? The fact that it can't hit Planeswalkers, and Enchantments, and will never generate a 2 for 1 seems like it makes it decidedly worse. Was the 2/2 split due to lack of 4 Pulse or am I missing something?

Otherwise your list looks pretty good. I've been testing something fairly similar, my build is a bit more control and less agro geared, but still pretty similar card choices.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

Was Putrefy ever better than Maelstrom Pulse? The fact that it can't hit Planeswalkers, and Enchantments, and will never generate a 2 for 1 seems like it makes it decidedly worse. Was the 2/2 split due to lack of 4 Pulse or am I missing something?

I asked a friend about this once. He ran Putrefy over Maelstrom Pulse in his Eva Green deck. Different strategy but I'm sure this applies here too.

The instant speed of Putrefy is relevant sometimes. He believed so strongly in it. And it makes sense.

[eq.firemind]

Was Putrefy ever better than Maelstrom Pulse? The fact that it can't hit Planeswalkers, and Enchantments, and will never generate a 2 for 1 seems like it makes it decidedly worse. Was the 2/2 split due to lack of 4 Pulse or am I missing something?
You play Goyf, they play Goyf. Putrefy solves the stalment, Pulse doesn't

[bulaxas]

4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Terravore / Wild Nacatl / Knight of the Reliquary / Countryside Crusher...

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Chain Lightning
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Fireblast
3 Terminate
2 Price of Progress

3 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills

i would splash white for nacatl and path...
but that would be a zoo deck not jund

[Burrito]

Was Putrefy ever better than Maelstrom Pulse? The fact that it can't hit Planeswalkers, and Enchantments, and will never generate a 2 for 1 seems like it makes it decidedly worse. Was the 2/2 split due to lack of 4 Pulse or am I missing something?

Otherwise your list looks pretty good. I've been testing something fairly similar, my build is a bit more control and less agro geared, but still pretty similar card choices.

Pulse vs Putrefy. Both have their benefits, but Pulse is probably the better choice. Next time I will play 4 Pulses.

I'd really like to see some SB suggestions. Especially how one could improve the combo and aggro MUs.

[from Cairo]

Pulse vs Putrefy. Both have their benefits, but Pulse is probably the better choice. Next time I will play 4 Pulses.

I'd really like to see some SB suggestions. Especially how one could improve the combo and aggro MUs.

For SB vs Tribal agro you could try Jund Charm: Pyroclasm is often good, it can add counters to your post-board Finks to reset persist or just turn BBE into a 5/4 or Kird into a 4/5, and it can double as yard hate vs Ichorid (the Clasm is also good in that match up). IDK it's a really versatile card in that it's often better than something MD in a given match up, but what it's going to be better than varies match to match.

The color combination doesn't offer much versus combo. I'm running 4 Cabal Therapy in the main and 4 Duress in the SB, but you're hate is pretty similar with 4 Thoughtseize main and some Blightnings and Extirpates. You could try Duress in the Extirpate slots I guess, it's probably better versus Combo, but obviously not as good against Loam, Control and Ichorid, where Extirpate shines. Alternatively one could just accept that they throw the Combo match up and concentrate on tightening up matches that make up a larger percent of their metagame, nothing really jumps out at me that if you board 4x "Hate Spell" it's going to make your combo match up positive.