[SCD] Porphyry Nodes

[blaat]

Enchantment, W (1)
At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy the creature with the least power. It can't be regenerated. If two or more creatures are tied for least power, you choose one of them.

When there are no creatures on the battlefield, sacrifice Porphyry Nodes.


Deck:
Now, let's say I have a UW creatureless control deck that has the basic landstill cards except for standstill (so maybe more of a Walker type of deck that uses ancestral visions, elspeth, counter package, basic removal and an alt. (combo) win condition).
In order to control aggro decks, the deck has at least 4 STP, 2 WoGs, 2 humility.
We all know that those type of decks are under performing lately because of those fast aggro decks out there.

Environment:
The meta has a lot of fast aggro decks (zoo, goblins, merfolk), second combo (ANT), third countertop and the rest random.deck.

During testing/playing, you're always behind against aggro decks unless you get a WoG/humility out fast, but you're still low on life points anyway and you can't establish the game most times since they pop out another creature (unless the player likes to overextend) or burn you out.
So I was looking for a card that could do it faster.
I want to stay in the UW colors, so cards like firespout are not an option.

Since cards like propaganda/prison, wing shards or even meekstone won't do it really well and adding more 1for1 cards like PtE doesn't seem that good to me, I found Nodes to fit the role better for slow control.
It can kill almost all creatures, doesn't target and costs one white mana.
Downside is it triggers during your turn.

What does Nodes do against aggro?
Assume they have a turn 1 creature in play and you have the chance to play nodes after that,
This gives your opponent 3 options:
- Wait until nodes trigger resolves killing his/her creature and dies due to no creatures on the battlefield, then play new creatures.
- Play more creatures.
- Find removal for nodes (not likely).

-First option stalls the aggro game plan and is more likely to be a time walk and single removal for just W. It also gives you more time to get a WoG/humility.

-Second option gives you a free removal spell each of your upkeep and nodes becomes an X-for-1.

-Third option: opponent play (and sac) a pridemage/seal or others seems bad, but if they do it costs them more mana and prolly their whole turn.
And if you're desperate you just counter it.

Now, why a SCD?
1. Is Nodes in the above situation the best (SB)card available against aggro?
2. Can it improve the aggro matchup for slow control decks like mine or UWx landstill enough, even if you turn their creatures into single lightning bolts with nodes?
3. Have other people played this card effectively against fast aggro?
I've seen it suggested in some deck threads, but never seen results.

[Bardo]

On behalf of The Source, thank you for making an SCD thread that does not suck. :) Good day to you, sir.

(Let's hope it stays that way.)

[paK0]

Wow, I actually like what i see =). Didn't notice this card until now. It seems like it could be really good. Need some testing though^^.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Wow, I actually like what i see =). Didn't notice this card until now. It seems like it could be really good. Need some testing though^^.

It's worth noting that Drop of Honey is identical, but green. That gives you a more diversified pool of decks to test it in.

[(nameless one)]

Possibly on budget Quinn decks?

Hell, it could even see play on Parfait (if Land Tax gets unbanned :P)

[paK0]

Well, didn't know that one eiter xD. (That come if you only learn the stables as you come into Lrgacy q.q).

Well, it think it could see play in Landstill like Decks, and they usually don't play green^^.

[rockout]

The problem with node is it kills itself after serving its purpose and kills the lower power creature on the field which most of the time in landstill is your little 1/1 soldier from elspeth or cycling decree. I'd rather play more sweepers like ee or wrath.

[sunshine]

The biggest problem with Nodes is it has no effect on the board the turn you play it. You can skim over this issue in the early turns when your life is high enough to give you a significant buffer, but it becomes much more awkward later on - especially if your endgame plan involves Elspeth or Decree of Justice. You might find that the extra turn it buys you against Zoo, if it's in your opener, is worth topdecking it if it's not.

[paK0]

The biggest problem with Nodes is it has no effect on the board the turn you play it. You can skim over this issue in the early turns when your life is high enough to give you a significant buffer, but it becomes much more awkward later on - especially if your endgame plan involves Elspeth or Decree of Justice. You might find that the extra turn it buys you against Zoo, if it's in your opener, is worth topdecking it if it's not.

True, but if you got Elspeth and/or Decree running chances are you already won.

[blaat]

The problem with E.E and WoG is that they are very good, but come online turn 3> and in the E.E case not always clean the complete board.
Ofcource, postboard it is likely you will cast E.E @ 1 turn 1 and be able to sac it turn 2 or later.

A couple of scenarios as a repsonse to some replies:

1
Let's assume you reach the point in having a Nodes and Elspeth in play.
In that case your opponent has creatures in play (otherwise nodes had to be sac'd and you don't play nodes after you play elspeth).
You create a token and pass.
Your aggro opponent is likely to attack and you chump-block with the token.
During your upkeep a creature has to be destroyed, which will be one of your opponents creatures because you don't have one.
Rince and repeat for the ultimate ability and the tokens will stick.
If they don't attack you'll end up with saccing your token every turn until ultimate ability, but you limit their damage dealing to their burn spells only if applicable.

2. The humilty Nodes scenario:
Pretty obvious when casting elspeth or even decree.
You choose your opponents creatures all the time until they have nothing.

Yes, nodes will be a dead card eventually, but if that's the case you have control of the game anyway so elspeth or whatever wincon can finish the game and you don't drop another nodes because you dont have to or because you have the mana for E.E/WoG.

[sunshine]

1
Let's assume you reach the point in having a Nodes and Elspeth in play.
In that case your opponent has creatures in play (otherwise nodes had to be sac'd and you don't play nodes after you play elspeth).
You create a token and pass.
Your aggro opponent is likely to attack and you chump-block with the token.
During your upkeep a creature has to be destroyed, which will be one of your opponents creatures because you don't have one.
Rince and repeat for the ultimate ability and the tokens will stick.
If they don't attack you'll end up with saccing your token every turn until ultimate ability, but you limit their damage dealing to their burn spells only if applicable.


The bolded section was what I'm more concerned with and was referencing. It's very common that you will drop Elspeth and need to continually chump an attacker - for example. In which case nodes seems a lot weaker than any other removal if they draw another creature (which aggro decks are not want to do).

[hi-val]

Nodes can act as a kind of Time Walk in situations against creature decks. If you absolutely must get to your next turn, you can run out Nodes on an empty board. My guess is that opponents who can RTFC will not play a guy into the Nodes, meaning that they just pass the turn. You lose Nodes but have the benefit of no creature on the board, if that's what you cared about. It seems marginal, but if I were, say, Landstill and attacking with Factories, preventing an opponent from playing a dude for a turn while I swung in would be pretty good.

[tivadar]

I've looked at this card before and in every deck I've found it either seems like a win-more, or a not-win-enough. Obviously, if you have humility down then you're very likely in a good board position. Why do you need Nodes? If it's early in the game, or against something like ichorid it won't do enough.

And sure, WoG is 2 turns slower (Nodes has "summoning sickness"), but I'd sooner get rid of all their creatures at once on turn 4 than 1 creature on turn 2, one on turn 3, and one on turn 4. In a deck like Zoo with a lower curve against something like goblins/merfolk, this could be good. But it just seems to narrow to me.

[grahf]

I was playing mono-white control against some aggro jank elementals the other day, and Nodes was pretty good. As has been said, its interaction with manlands is solid, and if played at the right time, you can get a lot of card advantage out of a one mana spell.

Another cool thing is that Nodes' destroy effect does not target, so you can take out troublesome things like Mongeese and even Progenitus (unlikely but possible).

[ReAnimated]

And sure, WoG is 2 turns slower (Nodes has "summoning sickness"), but I'd sooner get rid of all their creatures at once on turn 4 than 1 creature on turn 2, one on turn 3, and one on turn 4. In a deck like Zoo with a lower curve against something like goblins/merfolk, this could be good. But it just seems to narrow to me.

I don't really see the relevance to this, I think his point is that he wants the nodes early so he can have that extra turn with a clear board. You can play the Nodes and have the wrath later, I don't see the harm in having both.

Just my 2 cents.

*Not a bash, just an opinion*

[sauce]

The Abyss.

^^

[sunshine]

Nodes can act as a kind of Time Walk in situations against creature decks. If you absolutely must get to your next turn, you can run out Nodes on an empty board. My guess is that opponents who can RTFC will not play a guy into the Nodes, meaning that they just pass the turn. You lose Nodes but have the benefit of no creature on the board, if that's what you cared about. It seems marginal, but if I were, say, Landstill and attacking with Factories, preventing an opponent from playing a dude for a turn while I swung in would be pretty good.

I would consider playing another creature into nodes, if my opponent is low on life and has a shiny token for the nodes to eat next turn.

[FoolofaTook]

Nodes can act as a kind of Time Walk in situations against creature decks. If you absolutely must get to your next turn, you can run out Nodes on an empty board. My guess is that opponents who can RTFC will not play a guy into the Nodes, meaning that they just pass the turn. You lose Nodes but have the benefit of no creature on the board, if that's what you cared about. It seems marginal, but if I were, say, Landstill and attacking with Factories, preventing an opponent from playing a dude for a turn while I swung in would be pretty good.

Doesn't Porphyry Nodes get sac'd immediately if you run it out onto an empty board? It reads like the sacrifice is as soon as the condition is fulfilled.

[heroicraptor]

Doesn't Porphyry Nodes get sac'd immediately if you run it out onto an empty board? It reads like the sacrifice is as soon as the condition is fulfilled.

Yeah, it does.

[alderon666]

You're looking at this the wrong way, the best use of Nodes is when the opponents has 2 creatures out. The problem with that is that outside of Goblin every creature in the format is huge and taking swings from the is not an option. If he tries to overcommit you can remove the third creature.

Maybe if you played some kind of life gain. But then you should probably just play other better cards.

[tivadar]

I guess my point is that if you're playing both, wouldn't StP be just as good and less conditional? If you're using Nodes as single creature removal, then its clearly worse than the alternatives. If you're using it as mass removal, it seem like it doesn't do a very good job. Sure, there are situations where it may 2-1, but it's probably not going much beyond that. And you still have to wait through 2 of your opponents turn before you get that advantage. Turns during which you can likely not play a creature.

[majikal]

I feel like I would want to play it in conjunction with Maze of Ith.

[blaat]

I think his point is that he wants the nodes early so he can have that extra turn with a clear board. You can play the Nodes and have the wrath later, I don't see the harm in having both.

Exactly.
WoG is insane, but my point is, by the time of turn 4 a good aggro player should have dealt a lot of damage already and doesn't care about the WoG.
He will remove the remaining life point with burn or in the worst case a new creature.

The idea behind this SCD was if Nodes could provide some early tempo and removal to _have a better chance_ to establish with WoG, StP, Humility or even E.E etc. which are already maindeck.
Nodes were only meant as SB option, not maindeck removal

[Otter]

I feel like I would want to play it in conjunction with Maze of Ith.

I like this idea. The main problem with Nodes is that it forces you to tank a hit from everything you try to kill with it, which can be quite painful if that's Wild Nacatls on turn one or Goyfs a bit later. A combination of Maze and Nodes could really gum up their gameplay. It's a pity that both Goblins and Merfolk play Wasteland, but it could still do a decent job of buying you time.

[workingdude]

Is it possible to respond to the nodes trigger with a man land trigger to save the nodes?

[Pastorofmuppets]

Elspeth could, in theory, make an engine for keeping the Nodes in play if your opponent tries to be a smart guy by not playing creatures. Also, on the Upkeep, Piledriver's power is always 1 =D

[Aggro_zombies]

Is it possible to respond to the nodes trigger with a man land trigger to save the nodes?
Not really, I don't think. The sacrifice clause on Nodes checks continuously, so at end of turn when your manland reverted back to a regular land, Nodes would see there are no creatures and nuke itself.

I'm also pretty sure that if the last part triggers, even if you animated a land in response, it would still die. I think you have to Stifle it (or, you know, just activate your manland ahead of time).

Not a judge, though.

EDIT: Pastor's engine wouldn't work if the Soldier is the only creature in play. It would die, and then there would be no creatures around until Elspeth can be activated again on your main phase.

The problem I see with this card is that most decks have a way to dodge it. You'd really want to use it to kill Tarmogoyfs and other big, nasty threats, but almost every deck in the format will be able to spam enough creatures to protect their big guys from dying. The fact that it only activates once per turn, and only on your turn at that, pretty much seals the deal. I don't think this card is playable in the format, especially when you consider the options for targeted or mass removal: Path, Swords, Wrath, Wing Shards, Akroma's Vengeance, Planar Cleansing, EE, and Nev's Disk are all available in mono-white. The repeatability would be an asset if you had some control over what it was killing, and if it wasn't so fragile.

[Forbiddian]

Is it possible to respond to the nodes trigger with a man land trigger to save the nodes?

Yeah, but it'd die next turn during your opponent's untap/beginning of upkeep step (technically upkeep, but you don't have a chance to respond).


Here's what I meant, spelled out better:

With the trigger to kill a creature on the stack, you can activate a man-land, provided that the man-land is equal or lower power than the creature, you can still kill their guy.

Then Nodes doesn't die because it sees the Manland.

If you cast a creature during your mainphase, then Nodes will continue to live. If you don't cast a creature, then nodes will die during your opponent's upkeep step.

[FieryBalrog]

I would rather play Wing Shards then Nodes if I'm looking for cheaper X for 1 removal.

The problem with Nodes is that it dies immediately if there aren't any creatures on board. That means its rarely good unless the opponent has more than 1 creature out and even then you keep getting hit for multiple turns.

[rufus]

A primary problem with nodes is that it's often going to be a 0 for 1. Even Drop of Honey (which it's based on) in a color with fewer options for creature removal doesn't see any play.

[FoolofaTook]

The thing that Poryphyry Nodes is good for is to slowly sweep the opponent after you have your semi-lock in place, like a Moat, but are still some ways away from actually winning the game. It's similar and maybe superior to more traditional sweepers, like Wrath of God, in that it not only gets rid of the creatures arrayed opposite you but also prevents the opponent from wanting to cast more until it's gone.

The problem is that the type of deck that can use it, a slow control deck with few win cons, really does not work in Legacy at this point. Even the decks that could take advantage of it, like Landstill, have reasons not to want to play Moat as their semi-lock.

If the slow control archetypes became viable as a group at some point then I'm fairly sure that Drop of Honey and Porphyry Nodes would get a look-see. Enlightened Tutor to go get PN or Runed Halo or Oblivion Ring or Moat or a win con piece is a cool idea but it's way too slow for the game we're playing now.

[Guevera59]

Exactly.
WoG is insane, but my point is, by the time of turn 4 a good aggro player should have dealt a lot of damage already and doesn't care about the WoG.
He will remove the remaining life point with burn or in the worst case a new creature.

The idea behind this SCD was if Nodes could provide some early tempo and removal to _have a better chance_ to establish with WoG, StP, Humility or even E.E etc. which are already maindeck.
Nodes were only meant as SB option, not maindeck removal

Excellent point.

[chokin]

Humility+Nodes is funny to me. Even though Humility and Moat is much better.

Elspeth+Humility+Nodes is a soft lock on creatures, right? 3 card combos are fun.

Doesn't Nodes get around Shroud? That could give it some use for slower control decks to deal with Nimble Mongoose. It's like a super delayed STP that also pumps their Goyf. But you still get STP for him. Just an idea.

[eq.firemind]

I think UWx Landstill's best option against Zoo/Tribal creatures is 2-3 Path to Exile in sideboard. 6-7 Swords effects should buy you just enough time to establish board position. Nodes seems to fall between spotshot and sweeper, trying to do both things thus doing both things bad...
Maybe it is possible to run 1 as a E-Tutor target...

[FoolofaTook]

Exactly.
WoG is insane, but my point is, by the time of turn 4 a good aggro player should have dealt a lot of damage already and doesn't care about the WoG.
He will remove the remaining life point with burn or in the worst case a new creature.

The idea behind this SCD was if Nodes could provide some early tempo and removal to _have a better chance_ to establish with WoG, StP, Humility or even E.E etc. which are already maindeck.
Nodes were only meant as SB option, not maindeck removal

I guess I could see Poryphyry Nodes as a sideboard card in a deck with manlands and no, or just a few, creatures. You could bring it in against any deck that was planning to swarm you (Merfolk, Zoo, Goblins, etc) early on and lay it out on turn 2 (or whatever the first turn was that they had two creatures on the board) and then use it to regain tempo as you suggest. It would have the advantage that it discouraged them from replacing the lost creatures until it left play.

Against Goblins, for example, it would be much easier to cast than WoG or Moat if they had Rishadan Ports and Wasteland as part of the plan.

I kind of think it's a very narrow card but it has the virtue of being very cheap to cast and also looking usable against 3 decks in the DTB section.

[dahcmai]

This has got to be the best SCD thread I have ever seen. Kudoes.


As for the card itself. Yeah, I've used it. Worked for me. I still keep one in my landstill decks board to tutor up just for Zoo. Stupid Nacatls.

[Kangaxx]

The problem with Porphyry Nodes is that a smart player will not overextend. That fact alone makes it a horrible card. Once it hits the table your opponent won't cast any more creatures until it's gone and even then he's been beating face with one or two creatures while you debate yourself about casting it when in a better situation. I've played this card myself, and usually your opponent has been beating face with one creature while you're weighing your options hoping he overextends but most of the time he will not. It's a sorcery speed, conditional Swords to Plowshares that I believe isn't worth running in any deck. It only cost one mana but it's slow in the sense that by the time you're able to use it effectively you have 3-4 mana open for a wrath of god which makes running it irrelevent. You will NOT hit 3-4 creatures with this card becuase a smart player will not allow you to. And unlike Wrath of God, you're making your intentions obvious to your opponent while WoG carries the surprise element since the card will be sitting in your hand unrevealed to your opponent.

[FoolofaTook]

Here's a couple of examples of Poryphyry Nodes potentially being of use against Goblins:

Opponent T1: Mountain, Goblin Lackey
You T1: Land, Poryphyry Nodes
Opponent T2: @#%&!

Opponent T1: Mountain, Goblin Lackey
You T1: Land
Opponent T2: Mountain, Lackey attacks (19 life) - Siege Gang Commander, 3 tokens
You: StP Siege Gange Commander
You T2: Land, Poryphyry Nodes
Opponent T3: Lackey + 3 tokens attack (15 life)
You: Stifle Lackey effect
You T3: Kill Lackey with Poryphyry Nodes, Mishra's Factory (Goyf, whatever)
Opponent: @#%&!

[Otter]

Here's a couple of examples of Poryphyry Nodes potentially being of use against Goblins:

Opponent T1: Mountain, Goblin Lackey
You T1: Land, Poryphyry Nodes
Opponent T2: @#%&!

How is this bad a situation for Goblins? If they connect here and dump Siege-Gang onto the table, you get to spend ages killing the Lackey and then tokens while they play relevant Goblins and wreck you. Sometimes they won't have the Siege-Gang and they'll just have to deal with losing the Lackey, but that's not more impressive than just blowing it away with more copies of Swords or Path.


Opponent T1: Mountain, Goblin Lackey
You T1: Land
Opponent T2: Mountain, Lackey attacks (19 life) - Siege Gang Commander, 3 tokens
You: StP Siege Gange Commander
You T2: Land, Poryphyry Nodes
Opponent T3: Lackey + 3 tokens attack (15 life)
You: Stifle Lackey effect
You T3: Kill Lackey with Poryphyry Nodes, Mishra's Factory (Goyf, whatever)
Opponent: @#%&!

This scenario makes no sense either. Unless you drew Swords on turn two, why bother taking the Lackey hit? And where's the part where they drop Chieftain on turn three and you take 8 damage instead of 4, or they could be wrecking your manabase with Waste/Port?

[FoolofaTook]

How is this bad a situation for Goblins? If they connect here and dump Siege-Gang onto the table, you get to spend ages killing the Lackey and then tokens while they play relevant Goblins and wreck you. Sometimes they won't have the Siege-Gang and they'll just have to deal with losing the Lackey, but that's not more impressive than just blowing it away with more copies of Swords or Path.

It's not ages. Lackey dies on your next upkeep and they're left with SGC and 3 tokens against whatever else you have to deal with creatures. It's not like you StP'd Lackey (because you had too or get wrecked by continuing drops) and are now facing SGC and 3 tokens and whatever else they drop. You're facing SGC and 3 tokens that are going to go away as your continuing permanent creature removal works against them.

Obviously if you have nothing else to get in the way and no more removal you're going to die a quick death to the little green men. If however you have any life in you then Poryphyry Nodes is going to be a lot better than a 1-shot StP.




This scenario makes no sense either. Unless you drew Swords on turn two, why bother taking the Lackey hit? And where's the part where they drop Chieftain on turn three and you take 8 damage instead of 4, or they could be wrecking your manabase with Waste/Port?

Getting Goblins to over-extend in a situation where they're not going to win as a result is generally a good thing. If they're wrecking your manabase with waste/port then you obviously want a 1cc permanent solution working for you as probably your only chance at stabilizing?