Best of the Graveyard Based Strategies (Entomb Hulk, B/U Reanimator, Ichorid)

[AngryTroll]

I don't want to derail any of the individual threads, but I have a question about B/U Reanimator:

What advantage does this deck have over Entomb-Hulk? I grant that it's a lot of fun to play, but both are vulnerable to the same hate and both require a similar number of slots (7 creatures + 5 reanimation effects + 4 Entomb = 16 slots vs 3-6 Creatures + 4 Entomb + 8-10 reanimate effects = 15-20 slots, without counting Buried Alvie/Careful Study/Putrid Imp).

Entomb-Hulk is more vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares on the Hulk, but gets to run a better card selection engine (Brainstorm + Ponder + Mystical Tutor vs Brainstorm + Careful Study + Intuition/Buried Alive) and a similar number of disruption spells. Reaminator's a turn "faster", but plopping a giant dude into play is not the same thing as winning the game, and Entomb-Hulk gets to go off at instant speed.


After that, the question about Entomb Hulk becomes: What advantage does Entomb-Hulk have over Dredge?

My gut impression is that Dredge is almost strictly the best of these three decks, followed by Entomb Hulk, followed by reanimator. However, they seem to see play in the exact opposite order. Are there numbers from big recent tournaments that contradict that assessment? Is it simply because Reanimator is more fun than Entomb Hulk, and Entomb Hulk is more fun than Dredge? Are the Entomb-based decks still new and shiny?

I love Reanimator, and I think it's a fine deck with Entomb back in it, but I am really not motivated to dissassemble Entomb-Hulk to build it.

So, in summary:
- Of the three decks, how should they be ranked in power?
- Of the three decks, how much play does each see? Does this match the power ranking?
- If the "How much play does this deck see" ranking is not the same as "How good is this deck" ranking, why is that?

[alderon666]

Ichorid has a unique style of play and can't be directly compared to anything in the meta.

But one thing I can point out is, Ichorid is better on blue metagames. As they're not gonna be able to counter all your discard outlets and things tend to get ugly for them once shit hits the grave.

On the other hand, hate backed by a clock or control aspects fuck up Ichorid bad. Wastelands are a pain and make your sideboard harder to cast than it already is. The other two decks have access to more lands and better sideboard cards and don't have to go off unless they are sure they're get something out of it (except on the case of Extirpate).

[Raindown]

I agree with what was said above, I think B/U Re needs more time to prove itself (more players playing it). Ichorid already has posted out a few wins, even if it is not in the huge torneys, wasn't Japan's Legacy final between Ichorid and another deck?

[keys]

I agree with what was said above, I think B/U Re needs more time to prove itself (more players playing it). Ichorid already has posted out a few wins, even if it is not in the huge torneys, wasn't Japan's Legacy final between Ichorid and another deck?

Dredge won Worlds, GenCon and a handful of SCG tournaments in 2009.

[Raindown]

Dredge won Worlds, GenCon and a handful of SCG tournaments in 2009.

Go Dredge hehe.:smile:

[Ozymandias]

Dredge is not for everyone. I have played the deck since just after PT: Valencia until today, and I can tell you it is unlike anything else I have ever encountered in the world of Constructed Magic. It interacts on an entirely different plane than other decks, does so quickly, and is only seriously disrupted by five or six cards out of the nearly fifteen thousand legal in Legacy.

That said, the deck also plays differently than other decks. It doesn't generally play more than three lands a game. There are games where you win without casting spells. Agressive mulliganing is the rule, and sometimes you have close to zero control over your own destiny.

The skills it require in terms of managing limited resources are also something players are uncomfortable with. Yeah, there will be blowout games where you kill on t1, but there will also be games where you hold off a Tarmogoyf with a Tireless Tribe you got from the top of your deck thanks to Golgari Thug, or alpha strike with a pair of Narcomoebas on the last available turn. Another major aspect is that about 50% of your matchups will be decided by making a read on the right hate to play around not in sideboarding, but in the game itself. Deciding whether your opponent is holding Ravenous Trap or sandbagging a Crypt, for example. Making mistakes like that will cost you games.

With all that, who wouldn't want to just throw up your hands and play t2 Iona?

[Illissius]

I think the perception is that resilience varies inversely with power/explosiveness, because that's nearly always the rule. I don't know if it holds true in this case. (Everyone else: does it?) Either way, it would explain why more people choose to play the deck they perceive as more resilient.

[hungryLIKEALION]

I'd say Ichorid is highly resilient. As a zoo player I've lost plenty of games despite acing their graveyard with tormod's crypt and providing a solid clock just because the deck is so capable of springing back from nothing in one turn.

Reanimator, compared to the other two, doesn't provide nearly the power, and is disruptable by infinitely more cards than Ichorid. I don't think it's really that much more resilient than the other two, so I don't see the point to not playing the best deck, which is obviously Ichorid.

[thefreakaccident]

I'd say Ichorid is highly resilient. As a zoo player I've lost plenty of games despite acing their graveyard with tormod's crypt and providing a solid clock just because the deck is so capable of springing back from nothing in one turn.

Reanimator, compared to the other two, doesn't provide nearly the power, and is disruptable by infinitely more cards than Ichorid. I don't think it's really that much more resilient than the other two, so I don't see the point to not playing the best deck, which is obviously Ichorid.

Playing control almost strictly ( therefore being without the luxury of killing in a timely fashion a good amount of the time ), I have never lost to ichorid after 'acing' their yard... IDK... maybe its the fact that I like to kill Pimps before I blow my juice.

Reanimator on the other hand can be a nuisance with the following play:
1. Reanimation spell targeting dude in yard
2. Me sacrifice relic to rape said reanimation spell
3. Relic resolve -> entomb
4. still get a dude unless you counter

It is this fact that pretty much makes you also have to have permission as well... which is annoying.

They also have the ability to negate removal with untargetable guys or that stupid 'can't play spells of specific color' crit.

[hungryLIKEALION]

If their reanimation spell was targetted, which they all are except exhume(I'm pretty sure), they can't entomb to get a guy anyway since the spell's target is removed. O.o

[Ozymandias]

By the time you've killed the Putrid Imp, it may be too late. Or dredge can try DDD vs control, which may actually be better, depending.

[FieryBalrog]

Reanimator can be surprisingly resilient to blue; once you get a creature in the yard (through Study, Pimp, or Entomb) you can therapy their hand out and/or keep casting reanimation spells until it sticks. Also, Reanimator would have sucked even with entomb, but then Iona got printed, and you'll lose very few games where you reanimate Iona in the first 3 turns.

Also, Reanimator is capable of running Force of Will in certain setups, which allows some measure of protection alongside Therapy.

However, reanimator gets hit by the same hate that everyone is packing for dredge, and that is bad. Its G1 % is lower than Dredge and its G2/3 %'s get neutered by that hate. However, its still reasonably competitive.

[Yawgmoth]

I think the main reason B/U Reanimator gets such a bad rap is the fact that nearly every list on the this website in unoptimized or inferior. Lets look at Stefano Venturini's list to which he has recently gotten 3rd at two tournaments with each having 130+ people.

creature [5]
1 Blazing Archon
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

instant [18]
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
2 Intuition
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Wipe Away

sorcery [20]
4 Careful Study
4 Duress
3 Exhume
2 Ponder
3 Reanimate
4 Thoughtseize

land [17]
2 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Underground Sea

60 cards

Sideboard:
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Damnation
1 Life from the Loam
3 Reverent Silence
2 Tormod's Crypt

15 cards

To me this deck looks ridiculously powerful. Having a very robust draw/tutor engine 15 cards (not counting Entomb) and 8 discard effects. To me this decks seems like it would trample through a single FoW very easily and be able to handle a lot of situations. Splashing green for sideboard tech seems really good. Reverent Silence gives you a zero cc answer to Leyline and Counterbalance.

I'm not convinced that this is worse then Hulk. STP vulnerability, 5 MD slots that you don't want to draw, and 3cc reanimation spells. They are equivalent in draw/tutor and disruption in my opinion. Nearly every version of Hulk requires you to cast Entomb in order to win. In Reanimator, Entomb is definitely the MVP but not as essential to winning.

Is either better then Ichorid? I think it's a matter of opinion and in my opinion I think dredge is probably the best.

[johanessen]

Playing control almost strictly ( therefore being without the luxury of killing in a timely fashion a good amount of the time ), I have never lost to ichorid after 'acing' their yard... IDK... maybe its the fact that I like to kill Pimps before I blow my juice.

Reanimator on the other hand can be a nuisance with the following play:
1. Reanimation spell targeting dude in yard
2. Me sacrifice relic to rape said reanimation spell
3. Relic resolve -> entomb
4. still get a dude unless you counter

It is this fact that pretty much makes you also have to have permission as well... which is annoying.

They also have the ability to negate removal with untargetable guys or that stupid 'can't play spells of specific color' crit.

If the reanimate spell NEEDS a target (Reanimate i.e.) you won't get the dude. If you'r playing Exhume, you'll get it.

[umbowta]

By the time you've killed the Putrid Imp, it may be too late. Or dredge can try DDD vs control, which may actually be better, depending.

DDD? What's that? Sorry, I don't pilot dredge...yet...but it is something I'm looking at learning.

[RogueMTG]

DDD? What's that? Sorry, I don't pilot dredge...yet...but it is something I'm looking at learning.

It's Draw, Discard, Dredge. Rather than trying to go off fast with something like LED or Breakthrough they'll get up to 8 cards in hand, discard a dredger EOT, and slowly dredge every turn instead of drawing. Helps them not get blown out by overextending into GY hate or counter magic.

[Di]

If their reanimation spell was targetted, which they all are except exhume(I'm pretty sure), they can't entomb to get a guy anyway since the spell's target is removed. O.o

It should be noted that Animate Dead works this way as well. If they Crypt/Relic your yard in response to Animate Dead, you receive priority again and can Entomb then will animate that creature. Also, because Animate Dead targets upon resolution, so they can't respond to the targetting of the creature, so you'll get the guy. It's quite versatile, actually.

But to me, the big argument here is Entomb Hulk v. Reanimator, as they are the most similar, whereas Ichorid is in a league of its own as far as graveyard strategies go. When I first picked up Entombs I initially wanted them for Hulk, but quickly switched over to Reanimator. The disadvantages of Hulk far outweigh those of Reanimator. The vulnerability to Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile, to of the most commonly played cards in the format, really sets the deck back. Granted, you can have Force of Will in hand, or flashback Cabal Therapy before passing priority, but that deck can't afford to go off unprotected. Reanimator can because nearly all of their targets either have shroud, protection from a color, or are Iona, which just shuts them out from playing removal anyway. It's also much more vulnerable to hate. Graveyard hate is roughly the same for both decks, which isn't really an issue given how easy it is to remove it. But Hulk is bothered a lot by things that don't affect Reanimator, like Engineered Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Pithing Needle, etc. Also, Krosan Grip is a serious problem for Hulk if people understand how Necromancy works, which is a non-issue against Reanimator. It also should be mentioned that most Reanimator lists don't mind drawing their combo pieces as they run discard outlets anyway.

The only argument that Hulk really allegedly has in its favor, that it wins the game immediately, is also rather weak. Though this is true, a majority of matches with Reanimator are won once they get a creature into play. Iona is game against most of the decks in the format, and otherwise they just can't handle racing things like Inkwell Leviathan, Empyrial Archangel, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, etc.

[Forbiddian]

Draw, Discard a dredger, pass the turn, next turn --> Dredge.

It only works if you didn't mulligan, and you're on the draw, but it can be great if you have say, breakthrough, one land or two land, a couple dredgers, and your opponent opens with a blue dual.

Daze would absolutely ruin your day, and Force would set you way behind (you'd be hoping to topdeck a discard outlet before your opponent draws hate).



I think it's worth pointing out that Ichorid is basically stuck to running spells that can be cast for 1 or 0, but Reanimator and Entomb-Hulk can reliably use stiffer hate spells and answers that cost 2 or 3.

Ichorid might be more resilient against hate (if you define resiliency by "The ability to play through hate without having to find an answer"), but it's MUCH less likely to actually find an answer than decks that 1) Are actually drawing their cards instead of dredging, in ideal circumstances and 2) have access to more diverse answers at higher casting costs, and in many cases tutor effects.

I've been surprised by how well Reanimator has performed in testing. In matchups where it only needs Iona in order to win, it can walk through double Force of Will and Tormod's Crypt or other walls of hate with careful play around Exhume, Entomb, etc.

[gravemind123]

It should be noted that Animate Dead works this way as well. If they Crypt/Relic your yard in response to Animate Dead, you receive priority again and can Entomb then will animate that creature. Also, because Animate Dead targets upon resolution, so they can't respond to the targetting of the creature, so you'll get the guy. It's quite versatile, actually.

Are you sure that works? It doesn't seem like it would according to the rules on Aura's "113.1b Aura spells are always targeted. These are the only permanent spells with targets. An Aura's target is specified by its enchant keyword ability (see rule 702.5, "Enchant"). The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. An Aura permanent doesn't target anything; only the spell is targeted. (An activated or triggered ability of an Aura permanent can also be targeted.)" and also "608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that's no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal....The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal."

So if they exile a creature card in your graveyard, then Animate Dead should not be able to pull anything out the graveyard and will be countered. Unless you meant Exhume, which I know does work that way.

[Di]

Are you sure that works? It doesn't seem like it would according to the rules on Aura's "113.1b Aura spells are always targeted. These are the only permanent spells with targets. An Aura's target is specified by its enchant keyword ability (see rule 702.5, "Enchant"). The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. An Aura permanent doesn't target anything; only the spell is targeted. (An activated or triggered ability of an Aura permanent can also be targeted.)" and also "608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that's no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal....The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal."

So if they exile a creature card in your graveyard, then Animate Dead should not be able to pull anything out the graveyard and will be countered. Unless you meant Exhume, which I know does work that way.

Positive. I had to do a lot of research on it before I brought the card to a tournament setting. As far as interactions go between playing the card and graveyard removal, it works exactly as Exhume would (except that it targets). Animate Dead is not an aura, it's an enchantment; it becomes an aura as a comes-into-play ability. Although it is a targeted ability, the targets occur upon resolution of the ability, which by then the creature is already in play. This is akin to things like Meddling Mage or Iona, so they don't have a chance to respond once it's targeted, and the creature is automatically brought into play. How removal works from here is a bit tricky, but this is important to note for things like Krosan Grip against Entomb Hulk. The Necromancy returns the creature to play, then attaches itself. It has a comes into play ability and a leaves play ability, and they work closely to how Worldgorger Dragon and those types of cards work. With the comes into play ability on the stack (which attaches itself to the creature), you destroy the Necromancy. This causes its leaves play ability to resolve first (which destroys the creature), then the comes into play ability resolves. This results in the Protean Hulk returning to play and Necromancy in the graveyard, and save them having a Therapy or other sacrifice outlet, they can't combo.

In that event that is incorrect, then the 3+ judges I've spoken to on this are also incorrect. The wording on these cards are absurdly complicated, so it's even difficult to explain.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Di, you're either working with old wordings of these cards, or you've gotten some bad information about how the new wording work.

Animate Dead
:1::b:

Enchantment — Aura

Enchant creature card in a graveyard

When Animate Dead enters the battlefield, if it's on the battlefield, it loses "enchant creature card in a graveyard" and gains "enchant creature put onto the battlefield with Animate Dead." Return enchanted creature card to the battlefield under your control and attach Animate Dead to it. When Animate Dead leaves the battlefield, that creature's controller sacrifices it.

Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.

Necromancy
:2::b:

Enchantment

You may cast Necromancy as though it had flash. If you cast it any time a sorcery couldn't have been cast, the controller of the permanent it becomes sacrifices it at the beginning of the next cleanup step.

When Necromancy enters the battlefield, if it's on the battlefield, it becomes an Aura with "enchant creature put onto the battlefield with Necromancy." Put target creature card from a graveyard onto the battlefield under your control and attach Necromancy to it. When Necromancy leaves the battlefield, that creature's controller sacrifices it.


Animate Dead is an aura, so it does target upon announcement. Removing that target will counter the spell.

On top of that, returning the creature to play is part of a triggered ability that is contingent on Animate Dead being on the battlefield when it resolves, so Krosan Grip also stops it.

Necromancy, on the other hand, is not an aura, so it doesn't target upon announcement, but the triggered ability that puts the reanimated creature into play does target (unlike Animate Dead's trigger). Removing the target in response to this trigger will counter the ability, and (I believe) leave Necromancy in play as an enchantment.

Krosan Grip will also stop Necromancy cold, since it's current wording also includes a clause requiring the enchantment-cum-aura to be on the battlefield for its trigger to resolve. If you remove the Necromancy with this ability on the stack, they won't even get the Hulk into play, let alone be able to combo off.

[emidln]

I'm still at a loss as to why people are favoring Necromancy over Footsteps of the Goryo. We've known about the problems with Pridgemage/KGrip for awhile. Did anyone ever actually use Necromancy on an opponent's turn which, as far as I can tell, is about the only benefit to playing it over Footsteps. (I guess you could try stealing an opp's creature in the hopes that they (1) don't play any more and (2) don't play removal spells, but that seems like a shitty plan.)

[konsultant]

Di, you're either working with old wordings of these cards, or you've gotten some bad information about how the new wording work.

Animate Dead
:1::b:

Enchantment — Aura

Enchant creature card in a graveyard

When Animate Dead enters the battlefield, if it's on the battlefield, it loses "enchant creature card in a graveyard" and gains "enchant creature put onto the battlefield with Animate Dead." Return enchanted creature card to the battlefield under your control and attach Animate Dead to it. When Animate Dead leaves the battlefield, that creature's controller sacrifices it.

Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.

Animate Dead is an aura, so it does target upon announcement. Removing that target will counter the spell.


I have also spoken with a few judges and have recieved the same answer as Di. Animate Dead has a come into play ability now, one that can be stifled, It is upon the resolution of that ability that the target is chosen and at no time during the resolution of the ability is anything put on the stack or priority passed so no, once you allow someone to target with animate dead you can no longer respond with graveyard removal.

[frogboy]

Animate targets the creature card in your graveyard when you play it, because it's an aura. If the targeted card becomes illegal, Animate is countered. You don't get an opportunity to pull a switch. Similarly, if the target for Necromancy's trigger becomes illegal, Necromancy hangs out in play doing nothing and you don't get to mise a new creature.

[gravemind123]

There is a post about this in the rules forum here that I created, so hopefully we can get some clarification about this. The problem is that Animate Dead seems to get a ton of Oracle wording updates, so the answer is probably hard to find.

[johanessen]

I'm still at a loss as to why people are favoring Necromancy over Footsteps of the Goryo. We've known about the problems with Pridgemage/KGrip for awhile. Did anyone ever actually use Necromancy on an opponent's turn which, as far as I can tell, is about the only benefit to playing it over Footsteps. (I guess you could try stealing an opp's creature in the hopes that they (1) don't play any more and (2) don't play removal spells, but that seems like a shitty plan.)
Necromancy is better in mirror, vs Reanimator and it has its uses against ichorid or any mu because can target creatures in opponents graveyard.

I have also spoken with a few judges and have recieved the same answer as Di. Animate Dead has a come into play ability now, one that can be stifled, It is upon the resolution of that ability that the target is chosen and at no time during the resolution of the ability is anything put on the stack or priority passed so no, once you allow someone to target with animate dead you can no longer respond with graveyard removal.
Animate Dead doesn't target according to the oracle text -so this part works exactly as exhume- BUT you need to choose a creature in -any- graveyard before Animate Dead enters the battelfield (resolves). If you let resolve Animate Dead and wait to the trigger to respond with Entomb (or anything) to search for a creature you won't get it onto the battelfield.

EDIT: Okay, 113.1b - Aura spells are always targeted. These are the only permanent
spells with targets. An Aura's target is specified by its enchant keyword
ability (see Rule 702.5, "Enchant"). The target(s) are chosen as the
spell is cast;

[Pulp_Fiction]

I would have to say LEDless Dredge would be the best of the 3. I have seen people play Reanimator in the past and with little success. whienot is the only person I know of in the last 3 years who brought the deck to our local meta and did anything with it. Dredge is a lot better at fighting through hate and much more adaptable IMOP.

[Tacosnape]

Our reanimator build skips blue entirely, and is lightning fast and consistent. All the discard outlets cost one black, and all the reanimation outlets cost 2 or less, so a Dark Ritual generally always equals a first turn threat. I find it to be a very hard deck to get around, and probably a pretty serious contender.

[Joon]

I hate it when people write how superior and great their decks are without posting the goddamn list :really:

[hungryLIKEALION]

It should be noted that Animate Dead works this way as well. If they Crypt/Relic your yard in response to Animate Dead, you receive priority again and can Entomb then will animate that creature. Also, because Animate Dead targets upon resolution, so they can't respond to the targetting of the creature, so you'll get the guy. It's quite versatile, actually.This is wrong. Animate Dead is an aura that targets a creature when you play it, as all auras do. If the target leaves, it fizzles.

[FoulQ]

@ Taco, care to grace us with a list? I am interested.

[Nihil Credo]

@ Taco, care to grace us with a list? I am interested.
Didn't see the list, but based on the information given, one can guess something like:

4 Entomb
4 Thoughtseize
4 Putrid Imp
4 Therapy
0-2 Raven's Crime or other discard

4 Reanimate
4 Animate Dead
4 Exhume
2-4 Life//Death, or possibly Dance of the Dead if the list isn't going with the bare minimum of lands

4 Iona
2-5 alternate Shroud targets (Inkwell, Archangel)
0-2 singleton utility dudes (Primus, Nishoba)

4 Dark Ritual
15-18 Swamps plus possibly a bit of utility (Shizo, etc.)