[DECK]U got PROBED!

[Darkenslight]

I've wanted to make a deck around Psychogenic Probe, and it seems that most of the cards that force your opponent to shuffle are in Blue and White, so here's a crazy concoction :)

Land: 22

4 Ghost Quarter
3 Island
3 Plains
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Celestial Colonnade (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=98716&d=1260457254) (Worldwake Buy-a-Box promo; these are Hallowed Fountains 3 and 4 until then)
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

Kill: 4

4 Psychogenic Probe

Spells'n'Stuff: 34

4 Prophecy
4 Portent
3 Oblation
4 Force of Will
4 Noble Benefactor
3 Fabricate
4 Path to Exile
4 Cosi's Trickster
4 Extract

Sideboard

4 Humility
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Echoing Truth
3 Disenchant

Card Choices:

Portent/Prophecy: slowtrips that give youi the option of shuffling your opponent's library; Portent also has the option of filtering your early draws.

Celestial Colonnade: Some of you may not have seen this yet, but it's pretty good as a manland. This is the backup wincon, in case of KGrip, and alongside Cosi's Trickster.

Noble Benefactor: I'm guessing you're thinking 'WTF?' It has two purposes: one is blocking, the other is it's an optional tutor for both players.

Ghost Quarter: LD that can also force a shuffle in a pinch.

Oblation: Gets rid of problem permanents, like Iona naming Blue, and that Dread Returned creature from Ichorid.

Only 4 fetches: You don't want too many; I may add some more if required (most likely for the two Hallowed Fountain).

SB Humility: for Aggro G2 and 3.

SB Jotun Grunt: Fat for game 2 and 3, with the added bonus of filtering my cards back in.

So, what do you think?

[Atwa]

So, what do you think?

That this belongs in N&D for starters.

[Darkenslight]

That this belongs in N&D for starters.

Yeah I know, I put it in the wrong forum by mistake. DX I've just PM'd Bardo to request a move.

EDIT: So, how does it look to you, Atwa?

[Aggro_zombies]

Yeah I know, I put it in the wrong forum by mistake. DX I've just PM'd Bardo to request a move.

EDIT: So, how does it look to you, Atwa?
I think getting Krosan Grip off of my opponent's Noble Benefactor is a pretty sick play.

[FoulQ]

I think getting Krosan Grip off of my opponent's Noble Benefactor is a pretty sick play.

Then board out Noble Benefactor game 2 and 3?

I think it is a cool casual deck, but no way in hell is a deck that relies on psychogenic probe going to be successful when scepter-chant is dead in the format.

I'm also kind of thinking that creatureless and basically permanentless route would be better (except of course for humility/probe), sort of like burn, negating many of your opponent's cards. Unlike mill/burn, however, this deck can play really slow and still have some energy left with stuff like humility.

[lebarion]

I think I would cut white for red, adding some burn and Soldier of Fortune.

[Darkenslight]

The reason that it's UW is that the two colors combined have literally 80% of all effects that force your opponent to shuffle their library.

Also, there's an alternative plan once Worldwake comes out, as linked in the topic.

The only other option would be to play Maralen of the Mornsong and go UB. Red's OK, but there are literally 3 shuffle effects that affect your opponent. The black version plays Extirpate and Cranial Extraction. Blue is essential, right now, but that could change.

Hmm, perhaps a rainbow manabase, playing things like Winds of Change and Quiet Speculation. Remember that failing to find still forces a shuffle. :)

[Gocho]

I think I would cut white for red, adding some burn and Soldier of Fortune.

Why not Lavamancer? Deals two damage too and can target creatures. And is not useless without a Probe in the board.

The deck needs to find cards that force the opponent to shuffle his library, but give you some advantage. Path to exile, Portent, Prophecy and Ghost Quarter are not bad choices, but you need better cards or you will loose vs many decks. Some cards to test, maybe changing colors:

Lobotomy
Cranial Extraction
Thought Hemorrhage

Diminishing returns
Gaea's Blessing
Extirpate
Krosan Reclamation
Loaming Shaman
Mimeofacture
Rootwater Thief
Shimian Specter
Sowing Salt

[White Shadow]

The deck needs to find cards that force the opponent to shuffle his library, but give you some advantage. Path to exile, Portent, Prophecy and Ghost Quarter are not bad choices

Agreed - not bad choices at all - but not the best choices either, I'm afraid.

Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter obviously don't force the other player to shuffle. They give your opponent the option to search their library for a land, and only when this option is accepted do they force a shuffle. Good players who know what a deck is trying to do to them will often opt against searching/shuffling. I know I have done that. Slapping down Psychogenic Probe is going to make the decision process easy for them.

Noble Benefactor has the same issue.

If you have Psychogenic Probe on the table, the other player will probably consider whether or not searching for a land is worth it to him/her. This improves the efficiency of Ghost Quarter, Noble Benefactor, and Path to Exile. If the point of this deck is to damage the other player with Psychogenic Probe, then I must admit, Path to Exile, Noble Benefactor and Ghost Quarter aren't going to seal any wins (due to the word "may" rather than "must").

My initial reaction to this deck was that it seemed pretty interesting, but as I examined it further, I thought that it might be a bit slow. The Psychogenic Probe is going to require 10 shuffling effects on its own just to kill. With two of them in play, it would still take about 3-4 (likely 5) more turns (after casting them both) to kill the other player - especially since half or more of your shuffling effects are optional ("may").

Maybe I'm forgetting a card or two - but doesn't this mean that you will have to cast 10 of those 15 forced shuffling spells? That seems unreasonable. I'm discounting the optional shuffling effects entirely.

I think the biggest, most glaring problem with this deck is that it relies on Psychogenic Probe to win. What if you don't draw it? If you use Fabricate, the casting of the Probe will still be delayed until turn 4. You might not even be able to force your first shuffle until turn 5. What happens if your opponent packs a Disenchant or two? I know my Landstill build maindecks two. I think Cosi's Trickster is your only other option for winning, and at this rate, you'll be lucky if she's a 2/2 by turn 6. If you cast her earlier in the game, then you'll be using up your forced shuffle spells on her (and thus doing away entirely with your win condition based on the Probe). She'll obviously suffer to removal of some sort, too....

Anyway, you can see the basic trend here. To beat this deck, you only have to make a decision not to shuffle unless it is mandatory. Then, you are severely limited in options.

I think you'll want to shift the focus of the deck away from Psychogenic Probe. It's okay to rely on the probe for a solid 5-10 damage, but relying on it for a game win seems unreasonable. On the other hand, if you can make use of it while gaining control and card advantage in a more orthodox way - it just might prove marginally effective. Once you make it obvious to your opponent that you are relying on it to win, he/she will probably sideboard against the Probe for the remainder of the match.

[Nelis]

Path to Exile and Ghost Quarter don't force the other player to shuffle. They give your opponent the option to search their library for a land, and only when this option is accepted do they force a shuffle. Good players who know what a deck is trying to do to them will often opt against searching/shuffling. I know I have done that.
.

I think you are wrong. You have the option not to find a card. You still have to shuffle. Anyone?

[Benie Bederios]

You have 4 options:

* Not Search, the card says "Its controller MAY". If the opponent chooses this option the deck isn't shuffled.

* Search and find. The deck is shuffled

* Search and not find. The deck is shuffled.

- Benie

[Darkenslight]

Hence the mention of Maralen of the Mornsong; it's not a may effect, AND it damages your opponent. THe only issue is that it also damages you.

*ponders* Hmmm....

What about a Buw list with Maralen, Extirpate, Path and Extracts, alongside cards like Portent to support the shuffling?

EDIT: also, card filtering would be infinitely better for a deck like this that outright card draw, so things like Telling Time, Truth or Tale, and Impulse work more than Thirst, Compulsive research, especially if we go down the Maralen route.

EDIT 2: Found a Visions card named Relic Ward as protection for the Probe game 2.

[FieryBalrog]

Psychogenic Probe will never be competitive barring a completely new card in some future set (ala Painter's Servant Grindstone), so I think this belongs in the Casual forum.

I think Underworld Dreams + Teferi's Puzzle Box + Draw 7's stands a better chance hoenstly.

[Darkenslight]

Having a long hard think about it, I've come up with an alternate list; B/R.

Land: 21

2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Mountain
3 Swamp

Mastermind: 4

4 Psychogenic Probe

Stuff: 35

4 Boggart Forager
4 Winds of Change
4 Duress
2 Thoughseize
4 Dark Confidant
3 Thought Hemorrhage
4 Extirpate
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sadistic Sacrament
4 Personal preference (I'd probably put 3 EE and one Red Akroma in, as Chalice at 1 sucks)

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Helm of Obedience
4 Tormod's/Thran Foundry/Relic
4 Artifact Hate of choice.

Try it out and see; it kept owning the UW version in testing, it seems to have a better Gameplan.

[White Shadow]

Try it out and see; it kept owning the UW version in testing, it seems to have a better Gameplan.

That seems counterproductive. The U/W version of this deck has already been identified as non-competitive.

The mana base for the new build is particularly unworkable. I had to edit it because, during my first two games, I couldn't cast anything from your deck at all.

I took your new build (after tweaking) and played it against many decks. It has now lost 14 times in a row.

Legacy Decks that this deck lost to: Landstill, Vial Affinity, Mono Black Control, Burn.

Type 2 Decks: RDW, Jund, Boros, and Zen-block Blue (featuring Cancel as the main counterspell).

The deck lost to a casual life gaining deck that I built last week.

The deck also lost to a draft U/B build that I played in a draft tournament last week.

I would start suggesting ways to change the deck, but it has become fairly obvious that only major overhauls will suffice.

Of particular note:

I was only able to substantially damage the opponent using the Psychogenic Probe twice out of the 14 games that I played. As I had originally hypothesized, damage from this artifact is a painfully slow process. The deck came very close to winning against Landstill on the first time through, but failed to achieve any damage during the second game (even after side boarding).

The deck requires something like 7-10 turns to win, and has almost no way to control the battlefield or stop an onslaught of aggressive creatures. I highly suggest concentrating your efforts on a new project, or at least seriously rethinking your strategy on how to make this deck viable (with regards to the decks it will encounter in the meta).

If this deck is to truly work, then you're going to have to find a way to construct a version that can win without Psychogenic Probe. Psychogenic Probe should only speed up the winning process, not be part of the only winning process.

Maralen of the Mornsong was an interesting idea. I think most players would see Psychogenic Probe along side of her and immediately tutor for creature removal.

Relic Ward seems like a waste of a perfectly good slot that should have been used for creature removal, control, aggro, wall blockers, or some sort of combo. Casting it on your Probe means that your deck will take even longer to fire off a game-winning amount of shuffles.

[Darkenslight]

Then try it with these changes:

-4 Boggart Forager
-3 Thought Hemorrhage
-2 Sadistic Sacrement
-1 Mountain
+4 Maralen of the Mornsong
+4 Blightning
+1 Swamp
+1 Thoughtseize

[rufus]

The fundamental issue is, basically, that there aren't that many good cards which will make your opponent shuffle his or her library - especially if you exclude ones that make you shuffle yours as well.

[TygerClaw]

One good potential way to get them to shuffle their library is finding a way to abuse Bitter Ordeal.

Not sure HOW exactly but I'm sure it can be done.

Off to the bloody lab...

[Darkenslight]

Scapeshift?

Gravestorm says permanents, and ther's nothing like searching for land in the process.

Lotus Cobra would be needed unless you're floating mana, which is doubtful.

Perhaps:

Land: 22

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
2 Overgrown Tomb
5 Forest
4 Swamp

Alien Probe: 4

4 Psychogenic Probe

Shenanigans: 34

4 Scapeshift
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Duress
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Bitter Ordeal
4 Primal Command
4 Tarmogoyf
2 KGrip
4 Dark Confidant

SB:

2 KGrip
4 Tombstalker
4 Choke
1 Garruk
4 Crypt