BW HelmLine

[DrewliusMaximus]

I've wanted to try Leyline of the Void and Helm of Obedience for a while now, but I never actually put a decklist together until after Zendikar came out. When I saw Gatekeeper and Nighthawk, I thought they might be efficient enough on the board with Confidant to complement Leyline + Helm. I finally played it today in a small 11-man tournament, and it worked well enough to get me into the top 4. Now Helm and Leyline are kind of high cc for Bob, and the strategy has a "danger of cool things" element to it, but the deck had its moments today for sure. Here's what I played:

7 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
3 Chrome Mox

4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn
4 STP
4 Vindicate

4 Confidant
4 Nighthawk
3 Gatekeeper

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Sensei's Top
1 EE

4 Leyline
2 Helm

SB
4 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
1 Gatekeeper
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Etherworn Canonist
1 Relic
1 Needle
1 EE
1 Crypt

So I've got a sort of Deadguy shell without the land disruption, but with heavy creature removal. The 2 Enlightened Tutors help find the combo and fetch up Tops to prevent too much life-loss from Bob. Of course, there is the obvious temptation to create a toolbox, but the only other tutor target I put in the MD is EE. The Moxen may look a bit out place, but I found the 3 of them to be very helpful at ensuring solid turn 1 and 2 plays.

Gatekeeper and Nighthawk are scrappy little dudes that can actually go the distance themselves, but are also extremely good at drawing a game out while I find the HelmLine combo.

I don't know how competitive this really is, but I'm not writing it off either. I'd like to know if anyone has tried anything like this, and if there are some better card choices that could be made, especially in the SB. I don't have much of idea about how the deck matches up, but today I played against ANT, UGR Dreadstill, Zoo, and Aggro Loam. I lost to ANT, beat Dreadstill and Zoo, and drew with Aggro Loam. One thing I will say, is that it is awesome to start a game 1 with Leyline in play. I'd love to see a Dredge or Reanimator player's face after that.

[Kangaxx]

The deck looks really good. I'd be tempted to run a single Jitte. How has the life loss been treating you? Gerrard's Verdict is always on option over Hymn if you feel that the life loss is actually relevent.

[sauce]

Drew... why no Dark ritual???
Dark rit > Chrome mox.

Also... I am a fan of this build but I think you should check out this:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=23977

I like the Mesmeric fiends (or even Tidehollow scullers) and the Tombstalkers..

We have had one of these decks played in our meta too, just mono black, w/ Diabolic Edicts and Small poxes, no Bobs or Nighthawk/Gatekeepers.

[Maveric78f]

Remove this clunky combo and put some elsepth, jitte and senseis. Mother of runes is very good too with confidant and nighthawk.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Remove this clunky combo and put some elsepth, jitte and senseis. Mother of runes is very good too with confidant and nighthawk.

So, basically, instead of playing the deck he wants to play, he should play a really weird variant on Deadguy? (Which isn't really a terrific deck these days) :rolleyes:

~*~*~*~
As far as advice on the deck, I think you should decide whether you want to establish your combo by putting other pressure on the opponent in the form of being able to damage them with creatures, or whether you want to lock the opponent out with a control deck and then combo for the win. Right now, it seems like you're sort of splitting the difference a little too much. If you want to go for the man-plan, throw in some other beaters, like Tombstalker, Shade, Lynx, whatever. I know Dark Confidant is really good and everything, but I think this deck could reasonably substitute Phyrexian Arena if you wanted to include Tombstalker and not worry about the dreaded "flip for seven". If, on the other hand, you want to play the control deck, add in maybe a little more discard (Gerrard's Verdict is imo and underplayed card), maybe some Smallpox, Edict, etc. Sinkhole (etc) seems like it would be a waste of time for this deck, since you just need to control the opponent long enough to win all at once, so I wouldn't bother with any sort of dedicated land destruction. But still, pick your role, aggro or control, and build around that a little more cohesively.

I think the biggest problem you're going to face with this strategy will probably be other combo decks which are faster. Discard is going to be good against them, but they can still go off through the amount of disruption that you have, it seems to me. So be sure to keep in mind that you need enough meaningful ways to interact with super-fast combo like Belcher and Storm.

Kudos for trying out something a little more original than "U/g/X tempo deck #5836792-032908." Don't let the haters tell you what to play.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Drew... why no Dark ritual???
Dark rit > Chrome mox.

Yeah, everyone agrees with you Alex. I was playing the Moxen because I like the permanent acceleration, but I'll go with the wisdom of crowds on this one and use the Rits. (How's it going in Garland by the way? Still a Legacy crowd out there?)


As far as advice on the deck, I think you should decide whether you want to establish your combo by putting other pressure on the opponent in the form of being able to damage them with creatures, or whether you want to lock the opponent out with a control deck and then combo for the win. Right now, it seems like you're sort of splitting the difference a little too much. If you want to go for the man-plan, throw in some other beaters, like Tombstalker, Shade, Lynx, whatever. I know Dark Confidant is really good and everything, but I think this deck could reasonably substitute Phyrexian Arena if you wanted to include Tombstalker and not worry about the dreaded "flip for seven". If, on the other hand, you want to play the control deck, add in maybe a little more discard (Gerrard's Verdict is imo and underplayed card), maybe some Smallpox, Edict, etc. Sinkhole (etc) seems like it would be a waste of time for this deck, since you just need to control the opponent long enough to win all at once, so I wouldn't bother with any sort of dedicated land destruction. But still, pick your role, aggro or control, and build around that a little more cohesively.

I think the biggest problem you're going to face with this strategy will probably be other combo decks which are faster. Discard is going to be good against them, but they can still go off through the amount of disruption that you have, it seems to me. So be sure to keep in mind that you need enough meaningful ways to interact with super-fast combo like Belcher and Storm.

Arena is a great idea (tutorable)! Seems like 2-3 Arenas can replace Bobs and Tops. DukeDemonKn1ght, I can see your point about sticking to a role too. Having played mostly Imperial Painter in the last couple of years, I got used to a deck that defies the conventional Magic "roles" somewhat because it can play out as aggro, control or combo. In this deck, I was thinking that Bobs + Tops + Gatekeepers + Nighthawks would allow me to apply aggro-ish pressure sometimes, and stall games in a controllish manner other times. That said, I'll probably add a little more beatdown and stick with the man plan.

Also, it's apparently true that I need better ways to deal with fast combo. I thought having 4 Duress in the SB would be enough, but I lost to ANT twice yesterday. Alex, maybe those Mesmeric Fiends or Scullers need to be in the MD.


Gerrard's Verdict is always on option over Hymn if you feel that the life loss is actually relevent.

I never thought about the Verdicts. Can't get rid of Hyms though.


Mother of runes is very good too with confidant and nighthawk

I could see this being pretty ridiculous.

Anyway, so far I'm thinking: -3 Mox, -4 Bob, -2 Top, -1 Land, +4 Ritual, +3 Arena, +3 Tombstalker. To really increase the aggro though, I think I need more creatures.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Take a look at this list: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29238
It won a 72-man tourney using Helm-Leyline combo and has a pretty similar shell to what it looks like you're trying to make (except with R instead of W). Maybe it could give you some ideas on how to shape your list.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Take a look at this list: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29238
It won a 72-man tourney using Helm-Leyline combo and has a pretty similar shell to what it looks like you're trying to make (except with R instead of W). Maybe it could give you some ideas on how to shape your list.

Nice find. Thanks. He's using the full 4 Helm which might be the way to go, but his list is pretty suicidal with the Tombstalkers and the 4 Helms. And the 1 Jitte in there with only 9 creatures is kind of weird. Still, I definitely haven't seen anything like it before.

[SMR0079]

I've thinking about this idea for awhile and with the recent success of Loam and Dredge it seems like a good time to try it out.

White is much more effective than red for this deck, but his strategy is right on.

Focusing on maximizing the combo is the way to go IMO.

Focusing in on what matters:

8 LV/Helm
2 Enlightened Tutor
2/3 Top
4 Dark Confidant
2/3 Tombstalker as an alternate win condition
8 Discard
8 Removal: 4 Swords, 3 Vindicate, 1 Explosives (deals with Pithing Needle on Helm)
4 Rituals
21 land

SB should address the Zoo Match which could be rough if you don't combo them quickly. Not sure the best way to do this though. Additional discard for combo and control. Engineered Plague for tribal decks. Maybe a green splash for Deed and Grips.

Any thoughts?

[Dave Rockstar]

For zoo: damnation? Maybe a couple fog effects?

[Maveric78f]

So, basically, instead of playing the deck he wants to play, he should play a really weird variant on Deadguy? (Which isn't really a terrific deck these days) :rolleyes:
Yeah, I think he should. I've built the deck and contrarily to your saying I find it very good in the metagame.

[EssKay]

Yeah, I think he should. I've built the deck and contrarily to your saying I find it very good in the metagame.

Maybe you should start a thread for it then instead of trying to derail another one?

[caenel]

This is the deck I'm trying at the moment, it is working alright, but I often lack some carddrawing power (the list is mostly based on the framework drawn out by SMR0079):

2 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
7 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacomb

1 Engineered Explosives
3 Helm of Obedience
3 Sensei's Diving Top

4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Tombstalker
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate


I basically chose to go without Dark Confidant because of all the high cc cards in here (4+) and I could not rely on having top in there every game to fix my draw. Also, with Confidants, I found my removal package to be insufficient vs heavy creature decks (Zoo, Merfolk, ...).

With this version, I have 8 disruption spells in 4 Duress (chosen over Thoughtseize because the life loss is relevant and creature usually do not survive long on the board) and 4 Hymn to Tourach,11 creature control spells with 7 costing only 1 mana, 3 of which can take out shroud perms and 4 who can take out recurring threats. Vindicate is in there as an alround answer not only to creatures, but also to other troublesome permanents. The 1 Engineered Explosives can also be fetched with your tutors when needed.
Speaking of tutors, we have 4 Enlightened Tutor in here, because they fetch both of our kill conditions and enable a toolbox approach from the sideboard to cover all bases. Sensei's Top is in to provide the needed card quality. Dark Ritual is in to provide either explosive starts or very disruptive starts with some early disruption. The 2 Tombstalkers are in as a backup finisher.

As for the manabase, 7 fetchers to thin out the deck/ensure I have white when I need it. The necessary basics to counter non-basic hate and 2 Bayou for the inevitable Krosan Grips from the sideboard and to up the sunburst count for Exposives.

The most debatable spots for me at the moment are the Dark Rituals (since without other acceleration like Moxen or Lotus Petal, it still only enables a turn 3 win with Leyline in your opener). These might be replaced by a 3rd Tombstalker and 3 disruption spells (probably Thoughtseize). Other options for these spots are draw spells like Night's Whispers. I might also up the land count by 1 or 2, since without Dark Ritual I cannot afford to miss a land drop in the first 4 turns.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[SMR0079]

I think I may have cracked the code. Initial testing shows surprisingly good results.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Creatures
4 [TSB] Wall of Roots
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [US] Duress
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
3 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Helm of Obedience

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [US] Duress
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [FUT] Tombstalker


I'm still ironing out the mana base, which probably needs another land, and the side board is in flux.

The Wall of Roots was inspired by PVs recent use of Wall of Blossoms in his counterbalaence deck at Worlds. I had Goyfs in the slot at first but Zoo was wrecking me. They would generally just bolt the Goyf in the early game when I needed him. The Wall stops the bleeding and accelerates the combo as well. Pridmage is still a beating and may requires Pithing needle in the board. If you want to cut something the third Tutor can probably go without much effect, or the 4th Helm. Right now I'm trying to max out on the combo parts and then cut back if needed. Tombstalkers out of the board help to give you a plan B against Needle or other hate.

If you can get on MWS and test some games I would love to hear your results.

Hope this was helpful!

Sean

[DrewliusMaximus]

I'm still not sure if max'ing out the combo is better than going for better consistency. When I get back from vacation I want to try a few more things. But here is a list I did a few test draws with that has no acceleration and has just a bunch of efficient business spells.

21 Land

4 Duress
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Hymn

4 Confidant
3 Gatekeeper
4 Nighthawk

4 STP
4 Vindicate

2 E Tutor
1 EE
1 Top

4 Leyline
2 Helm

Several of my friends don't like Tops in the deck because they'd rather just be disrupting or doing something to win. I still like having Top's effect, but with the Tutors, 1 Top might be enough.

From the last tournament I played in, I like the Gatekeepers and Nighthawks as the basic man-plan along with Confidants. With the STP's and Vindicates, they make it hard for your opponent to keep any creatures out. The Zoo matchup seemed pretty damn good with them.

I'm not saying that I don't want to play Dark Rituals and go for turn 2 combos. But a lot of the cards in we have access to (like 1 cc discards, STP, Confidant, etc) are very cost-effective, so maybe the Helm combo could provide a dangerous endgame to an otherwise highly consistent deck.

[Sevryn]

I tried playing with a deck like this, but I called mine C-C-C-COMBOBREAKER and just tried to fit in as many combos that could be found with enlightened tutor:

-Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void
-Helm of Awakening + SDT + SDT + Tendrils
-Painter's Servant + Grindstone
-Stuffy Doll + Guilty Conscience

Just something to think about.

[Rad_Fishy]

I'm liking the way your list is shaping up DrewliusMaximus. Do you think 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Duress is too much? I'd be inclined to drop 2 Duress for 2 more Hymns, althought without Dark Ritual that would leave you with less turn one plays.

I've been thinking about giving the following list a try in the coming days.

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Helm of Obedience

3 Tombstalker

4 Phyrexian Arena
3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual

1 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
8 Swamp
1 Plains

Swapping out the Dark Confidants for Phyrexian Arenas allow you to run Tombstalkers without having to worry about flipping them for eight. Since both our combo pieces are tutorable I thought to add a couple Enlightened Tutors and in doing so figured a few fetchable one of's might not be a bad idea. What I'm not sure of is if there will be many times I'll want to search for a silver bullet instead of a combo piece. Searching for an Engineered Explosives/Seal of Cleansing to get rid of a Pithing Needle is understandable, but would there ever be a time to search up an Engineered Plague/Ghostly Prison over a combo piece? I haven't been able to tell yet.

[JudasKilled]

I think that everyones going about this the wrong way. Helm/Leyline is combo. I dont see how it fits into an aggro shell seeeing as 8 maindeck cards dont do anything for you there. I would build it as control or combo.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I'm liking the way your list is shaping up DrewliusMaximus. Do you think 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Duress is too much? I'd be inclined to drop 2 Duress for 2 more Hymns, althought without Dark Ritual that would leave you with less turn one plays.

I've been thinking about giving the following list a try in the coming days.

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Helm of Obedience

3 Tombstalker

4 Phyrexian Arena
3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual

1 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
8 Swamp
1 Plains

Swapping out the Dark Confidants for Phyrexian Arenas allow you to run Tombstalkers without having to worry about flipping them for eight. Since both our combo pieces are tutorable I thought to add a couple Enlightened Tutors and in doing so figured a few fetchable one of's might not be a bad idea. What I'm not sure of is if there will be many times I'll want to search for a silver bullet instead of a combo piece. Searching for an Engineered Explosives/Seal of Cleansing to get rid of a Pithing Needle is understandable, but would there ever be a time to search up an Engineered Plague/Ghostly Prison over a combo piece? I haven't been able to tell yet.

Maindeck E Plague seems bad, since against most decks it's a fairly dead draw (E Plague naming... Lhurgoyf?), and against the decks you need it against, it's really more of a drop in the bucket. It's probably bettev in the sideboard.

Also, regarding the dude above me and his question of whether a Helm combo deck wants to run creatures, I think this is actually sort of a ticklish question. Gatekeeper, Nighthawk, and Tombstalker seem pretty valid, since they're either utili-creatures or alternate ways to win... Or both. They don't necessarily make it an aggro deck, but they provide effective ways to either interact with creature based decks, or to deal some damage. The Helm combo isn't always going to get there, and even if you plan to win the matxh with Helm, these guys could distract the opponent while you set up.

I think the nature of the Helm combo is that it's pretty compact, but definitely not the quickest combo available.... I'd compare it more to the NO/Progenitus, or the Painter/Stone combo, in that it represents a win and it only really requires two cards, as opposed to a combo like Storm or Belcher that basically asks for you to build your whole deck around it. Granted, for the sake of consistency, you need ways to find your win con (and therefore I think Enlightened Tutor is a necessary evil.). But really, what we should all be asking ourselves is what's the best way to build a deck that can stay alive long enough to play Helm, play Leyline (or just drop it for free), activate and win. Fundamentally, it really is that simple.

[Iare]

I'm gonna have to agree the backup beats plan doesn't look so hot specially with weenies. I would recommend a moving towards control combo, something along these lines.

Sorcery
2 Wretched Banquet
2 Duress
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn To tourach
4 Vindicate

Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords
2 Enlightened tutor

Backup Plan
3 Tombstalker

Tutor targets and primary win con
2 EE
4 Leyline
4 Helm

Lands -
1 Bayou <--- EE at 3 and can fake eva green if you think that will get you anything
1 Kor Haven
1 Urborg
2 bloodstaind mire
4 marsh fields
4 scrubland
7 Swamps
1 Plains

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I'm gonna have to agree the backup beats plan doesn't look so hot specially with weenies. I would recommend a moving towards control combo, something along these lines.

Sorcery
2 Wretched Banquet
2 Duress
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn To tourach
4 Vindicate

Instant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swords
2 Enlightened tutor

Backup Plan
3 Tombstalker

Tutor targets and primary win con
2 EE
4 Leyline
4 Helm

Lands -
1 Bayou <--- EE at 3 and can fake eva green if you think that will get you anything
1 Kor Haven
1 Urborg
2 bloodstaind mire
4 marsh fields
4 scrubland
7 Swamps
1 Plains

It seems like Dark Ritual is kind of unnecessary in this list...

[SMR0079]

I cut Vindicate for Deed to improve the Merfolk matchup.

[Rad_Fishy]

SMR0079, what's your mana base look like when running Deeds?

[JudasKilled]

Deed worries me against merfolk due to stifle, besides they run daze the chances of me gettign to 3-4 mana to play dead and have it resolve fast enough is low.

[JudasKilled]

It seems like Dark Ritual is kind of unnecessary in this list...

Ritual powers out tomb, discard, etc. And ultimetly it allows for possible turn 1 or quick wins. Unlikely, but possible.

[Rad_Fishy]

Ritual powers out tomb, discard, etc. And ultimetly it allows for possible turn 1 or quick wins. Unlikely, but possible.

Duke was probably referring to your list not having a lot of cards with mana costs that really benefit from it like Arena, Nighthawk, Gatekeeper, etc.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Duke was probably referring to your list not having a lot of cards with mana costs that really benefit from it like Arena, Nighthawk, Gatekeeper, etc.

Indeed. It just seems to me that you want to have more things to accel into than Hymn, Helm, and Tombstalker in order to effectively run Dark Ritual... Especially since out of these, Hymn is the only one that you're realistically going to play on your first turn. Technically you can accel into Leyline, but that's hella unlikely because you would just play it for free if it was in your starting grip. So it only accelerates into Leyline if you draw Leyline as your eighth card or whatever, basically.

Anyways...

[SMR0079]

SMR0079, what's your mana base look like when running Deeds?

I cut the rituals as the deck is becoming closer to combo Rock than anything else. I'm running 23 lands- Fetches, Scrubs, Bayous, Basics. Wall of Roots has been amazing. Blocking Goys and accelerating into the combo.

When you are able to drop turn 0 Leyline the win percentage is much higher. You could run a mix of Deed and Damnation, but a general sweeper is needed against decks like Merfolk.

It's a unique deck if you want to play something different, but it isn't tier 1.

[JudasKilled]

Ive been running more of eva/greenish shell ( without green)

Land: 21
4 bloodstained mire
4 marsh lats
4 mishras factory
3 badlands
2 scrubland
3 swamp
1 mountain

4 Leyline
3 Helm
4 Dark Rit
3 top
2 E Tutor
1 engineered explosives
4 thoughtseize
3 firespout
3 tombstaker
4 shriekmaw
2 umezawas jitte
3 smother
4 hymn to tourach

SB so far:
1 firespout
2 ethersworn cannonist (storm)
2 serenity (stax, maybe still/cb)
3 blood moon ( u side out the e tutors and add 4th helm)
1 helm of obed

ive crushed zoo pretty hard, gobos was pretty solid, eva green would be rough if you dont land a leyline. I think devoting the rest of the board to CB type decks would be fine.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I'm liking the way your list is shaping up DrewliusMaximus. Do you think 4 Thoughtseize and 4 Duress is too much? I'd be inclined to drop 2 Duress for 2 more Hymns, althought without Dark Ritual that would leave you with less turn one plays.


Without Rituals or any acceleration, I really want some other way to start disrupting on turn 1. I've also really liked getting to see my opponent's hand early, so I'm still leaning towards the full 4 Duress + 4 Thoughtsieze. Hymn can be so devastating I won't argue against using the full 4 of them, but I am just hesitant without acceleration.


I think that everyones going about this the wrong way. Helm/Leyline is combo. I dont see how it fits into an aggro shell seeeing as 8 maindeck cards dont do anything for you there. I would build it as control or combo.

Like DukeDemonKn1ght said, Leyline + Helm is most similar to Servant + Grindstone, which has successfully been incorporated into creature-based decks. With Imperial Painter for example, you have legit beatdown cards and force your opponent to deal with both aggro and combo win conditions. I actually think the Aggro vs. Control vs. Combo question is not always valid, especially in the current Legacy format. Some of the most successful decks are definitely pure-breeds like ANT or Zoo or Landstill. But it seems to me that Legacy has developed to a point where hybrids are equally prevalent. With the speed of the current metagame, I'd argue that the best control decks are actually aggro-control decks like Merfolk and Canadian Thresh. Then there's newer aggro-combo decks like Imperial Painter and Mono-Green Chalice Aggro w/ NO + Progenitus. A friend of mine recently top-4'ed at 2 50-person events in a row with a Lands deck (New Age Lands) that combos out with Scapeshift into 5 Mountains + 2 Valakuts, which I guess is a weird form of control-combo? I know I'm going off on a tangent (there's probably a thread for this), but I think the Aggro / Control / Combo framework can lead people to be overly-simplistic. In this case, I think a compact combo like Leyline + Helm can definitely work alongside creatures, and in limitied use, it has for me. I'm not saying that there isn't a better way to use the combo in a deck, but I do not think that focusing on the combo entirely is viable.


I'm gonna have to agree the backup beats plan doesn't look so hot specially with weenies. I would recommend a moving towards control combo, something along these lines.

I've found that Gatekeeper and Nighthawk are creatures that can play a control role well enough. I'll admit that I haven't tested the Merfolk matchup, but against Zoo, the discard + 4 STP's + 4 Vindicates + EE + Gatekeepers and Nighthawks were enough to keep almost every one of their creatures off the board, especially if Confidant was online. And I could deal damage the whole time too.

The approach I am trying to take with the deck is to apply consistent pressure with disruption, removal and creatures that do something, with the background threat of the combo. If I can win with utility creatures beating down then great! Otherwise, I'll have the tools to stall until I can assemble the HelmLine win.

[BryanG]

Thought Id share my build with everyone...

4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
4 Fetid Heath
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland

4 Leyline
3 Helm
2 Top
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 EE

3 Enlightened tutor

4 Bob
4 Kitchen Finks

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Swords
4 Vindicate

SB
No clue! Know Pithing needle should b there... would love some feedback.

I think people in this thread are forgetting that one of the main strengths of the strategy is that it allows you to play main deck leyline. In a meta of loam decks, ichorid, and reanimator decks this deck would be the nuts.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Thought Id share my build with everyone...

4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bayou
4 Fetid Heath
1 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Wasteland

4 Leyline
3 Helm
2 Top
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 EE

3 Enlightened tutor

4 Bob
4 Kitchen Finks

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Swords
4 Vindicate

SB
No clue! Know Pithing needle should b there... would love some feedback.

I think people in this thread are forgetting that one of the main strengths of the strategy is that it allows you to play main deck leyline. In a meta of loam decks, ichorid, and reanimator decks this deck would be the nuts.

I'm going to add 1 more dual land for a third color to my build just so I can EE for 3, and if I add green, Choke is a card I'd have in the SB. I'm thinking about adding an Underground Sea though so I can have Back to Basics in the SB instead.

[BryanG]

choke seems wicked good

[Rad_Fishy]

After some testing over the Christmas break I've found that the version with creatures works a lot better than the version without, or the version that relies on Tombstalkers as backup. Many games are won by having your opponent focus on answering your creatures while you drop the combo and win.

I've been running a list very similar to DrewliusMaximus' last list. Often I've found artifact and enchantment threats that cost three or four mana that I wanted to destroy so I added a Seal of Cleansing that I can tutor up if needed. Also, after getting stuck on three land with Tutors in my hand a couple games I thought of adding single Vault of Whispers in place of a Swamp.


I'm going to add 1 more dual land for a third color to my build just so I can EE for 3, and if I add green, Choke is a card I'd have in the SB. I'm thinking about adding an Underground Sea though so I can have Back to Basics in the SB instead.

Would you really want B2B? I find every time it gets played against me it's a real pain to play around it, often slowing me down enough to lose. I guess you can fetch the right lands a head of time if you side it in but is it worth losing one of your lands (Underground Sea) when you play it?

[DrewliusMaximus]

Would you really want B2B? I find every time it gets played against me it's a real pain to play around it, often slowing me down enough to lose. I guess you can fetch the right lands a head of time if you side it in but is it worth losing one of your lands (Underground Sea) when you play it?

No. You are right, it isn't good. I tried it and it backfires too much even though it does hurt other decks more. So I will probably play with one Bayou and have a Choke in the board.