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Aggro_zombies
12-15-2009, 01:20 AM
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18463_Legacys_Allure_Loaming_in_St_Louis.html

Posting this because Life from the Loam is my favorite card by a mile.

EDIT: About the article - I'm not really qualified to comment on 43land, Zoo, or Progenitus Countertop (I prefer Supreme Blue myself), but I can say the following:

- My own testing seems to indicate Pat's list is the superior version of Aggro Loam. Pernicious Deed is very out of place in Boss's deck and can actually cause card disadvantage by destroying your Moxen and Chalice (making the opponent's one mana spells relevant again). The lack of Countryside Crusher is confusing since it's the best creature in the deck, and the addition of Terravore as 4-of makes the deck more susceptible to graveyard hate. Doug chalks the presence of Aggro Loam up to a decrease in Counterbalance, giving the deck some breathing room; while this is true, to a certain extent, Pat's version of the deck actually has less of a hard time against Counterbalance than Boss's does because it has a greater number of proactive destruction elements (EE and Pulse). Aggro Loam also doesn't lose to its own mana base if you build it correctly...at the very least, I've never had that issue.

- Blood Moon is largely irrelevant against an Aggro Loam build like Pat's. Crusher couldn't care less about Blood Moon and the deck should pack basic Forests regardless. A proactive aggro-control version has less of an issue losing Life from the Loam than a more traditional one - I found that out when I was attempting to come up with ways to improve the Counterbalance matchup, since you're essentially losing Loam there, too. EE and Pulse both give Counterbalance fits if you can bait the counters out with scary monsters first. Similarly, Spell Snare is less relevant when the deck isn't using Dreams or Wish because there's fewer insane targets for it (Bob is just about it; Goyf is decent to counter and countering Loam buys you a turn or makes the Loam player spend more mana, neither of which are spectacular if you're even or behind).

- Sam Black's version was cute, but I think it tried to do too many unnecessary things. Clique-Lab is okay against control decks, but as we saw when he played Zoo, it's pretty awful against aggro and ho-hum against Aggro Control. Riptide Lab also pushes the number of colorless lands in the deck to a rather risky number for minimal benefit - when do you want to bounce Trickster, except when it's about to die? Rejeerey, Lord, and Sovereign are all non-Wizards, and bouncing Adept seems like a rather resource-intensive way to get an extra card every turn (:3::u::u: or :2::u: and a Vial at two - note that I'm counting Lab tapping as a loss of a colorless mana). Trickster itself seems weak as the deck is pretty much fine on beaters, given that almost every guy in the deck provides Sliver-esque global pumps. Clique can be decent against control I suppose, but what control decks in this format (a) show up in any significant numbers without (b) playing blue? You basically only want it for the ability, which seems worse than just using more counters (all your guys are unblockable so the body is almost an afterthought. How often is flash relevant?). I like Kira from the other list a lot, though.

Glorfindel
12-15-2009, 01:59 AM
There is something wrong in the article; a Vialed Kira will not cause a spot removal spell to fizzle.

hi-val
12-15-2009, 02:01 AM
There is something wrong in the article; a Vialed Kira will not cause a spot removal spell to fizzle.

Aww shoot, you're right. Good spot!

SpencerForHire
12-15-2009, 02:07 AM
I'm really glad for some commentary to start up again about Loam. This was always the deck I wanted to play but never got around to it "while it was good*". I also really disliked cards like Devastating Dreams (one of the only turn offs for me in the deck).

I'm hoping this deck is as competitive against the field I'm most concerned about because I'm really enthusiastic about picking it up.

As for Merfolk, I'm somewhat disappointied that all the placing lists go against my principle of only running Merfolk in the Merfolk.dec. Neither Kira nor Clique gain the bonuses of the lords and that was a big selling point in my opinion for the deck.


*While it was considered a DTC/DTW/DTB or whatever it was when it was first popularized.

Aggro_zombies
12-15-2009, 02:12 AM
I'm really glad for some commentary to start up again about Loam. This was always the deck I wanted to play but never got around to it "while it was good*". I also really disliked cards like Devastating Dreams (one of the only turn offs for me in the deck).

I'm hoping this deck is as competitive against the field I'm most concerned about because I'm really enthusiastic about picking it up.

As for Merfolk, I'm somewhat disappointied that all the placing lists go against my principle of only running Merfolk in the Merfolk.dec. Neither Kira nor Clique gain the bonuses of the lords and that was a big selling point in my opinion for the deck.


*While it was considered a DTC/DTW/DTB or whatever it was when it was first popularized.
Kira is a must when Merfolk rolls over and dies to burn. Zoo would have to sweep or two-for-one itself to kill any of the Merfolk deck's guys, which is a pretty sweet deal for the Merfolk player. That said, if Kira comes down I'd probably just lob burn spells at my opponent's face instead and attack aggressively to put pressure on him to block.

jazzykat
12-15-2009, 03:22 AM
I think Doug wrote a nice article. IME loam has a fantastic manabase and it doesn't die to it.

To be fair while countertop is good vs. Loam they still need to setup and you have chalice. I'm not sure if it is as favorable as Doug makes it sound.

Nihil Credo
12-15-2009, 03:29 AM
For the record, the complete archetype breakdown is available here (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18460_Too_Much_Information_St_Louis_Legacy_Open.html), along with full match results. Only five Tendrils and three Belcher players, who probably got handled by about four times as many lists packing Stifle or CounterTop, and possibly by the nine Stax players and seven Eva Green. Control was fairly scarce, with just one Landstill player, three "Elspeth Control" and a few rogues ("Sphinx Control"?). Also, a grand total of fourteen Ichorid decks plus three Reanimators and three Entomb Hulk lists, so the hate was probably out in force. And the Dragon Stompy guy who made T8 was the only one in the room; I love the double Akromas in his lists.

Let me incidentally quote:


Legacy certainly brings a lot of archetypes to the table, with 41 in the Sunday field (one for every 3.12 players) compared to 55 archetypes in the Standard event (one for every 5.73 players) more than twice the size.FTW.

alderon666
12-15-2009, 08:50 AM
Clique beats combo, Ritual, Ritual, play in response Clique putting Ad Nauseam on the bottom.

FieryBalrog
12-15-2009, 10:24 AM
Dragon Stompy didn't make top 8, just to clarify. He was 20th.

Top 8 was 2 Aggro Loam, 2 Lands.dec, Countertop Prog., Zoo, 2 Merfolk.

Finn
12-15-2009, 10:40 AM
Is it just me, or is Owen Turtenwald consistently kicking ass in Legacy?

J.V.
12-15-2009, 11:06 AM
Is it just me, or is Owen Turtenwald consistently kicking ass in Legacy?

He does it in Vintage too...

georgjorge
12-16-2009, 06:59 AM
I largely agree with Aggro_zombies' assessment of the Loam decks, and I'm not sure as well where the notion comes from that Counterbalance has such a good matchup against Aggro Loam. In my testing (Wish-less, three Pulse and six 3cc-beaters main) I wouldn't even call it slightly unfavorable.

Pat's list runs a whole eight removal spells (including Assault), which is interesting, though I would fear drawing too many reactive cards and missing out on aggressive openings where you just drop threat after threat until your opponent can't handle them. No Dreams is interesting as well - for the longest time I've thought about cutting the two left in my main because they don't really do that much against many decks, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it, remembering all the times they won me the game. It might be the right thing though. Finally, four Zuran Orb in the side? Is the card really that good? Obvious synergy with Loam and Crusher, but you still need enough mana to answer their threats, and it looks more like buying some time but making your board position even worse. Has anyone else has good experiences with them?

Piceli89
12-16-2009, 07:09 AM
From the article:
(...)"Kira can fuzz a removal spell when played from Aether Vial "
:really:

Raystar
12-16-2009, 08:21 AM
[four Zuran Orb] Has anyone else has good experiences with them?

I do. I played 43Lands since forever and they are the best anti-burn strategy around. In response to their PoP you just sac your lands saving just 2 or a Mox and a land and you start a new. With 4 Zorb your matchup goes from pretty unfavorable to almost unwinnable for the burn player.

leander?
12-16-2009, 02:27 PM
From the article:
(...)"Kira can fuzz a removal spell when played from Aether Vial "
:really:
Too late

There is something wrong in the article; a Vialed Kira will not cause a spot removal spell to fizzle.

hi-val
12-16-2009, 05:41 PM
The other thing with Zorb is that you can choose to only sacrifice enough lands to balance out the POP - so if you have eight lands, you can blow four of them and break even on life. That way, you still have lands to cast some sweet spells.

georgjorge
12-17-2009, 05:47 AM
I understand Orb is VERY good against Burn, but against decks like Zoo I seem to need all the mana I can get since my creatures are already overcosted in comparison to theirs. It's sweet in response to PoP, but against the continous damage from creatures it's not (and I've never gotten eight mana on the board against Zoo in a lot of games). As I said, I haven't tested it, I just have a hard time imagining scenarios when I would have the extra lands to spare against decks that can put your back to the wall from the first turns.