[SCD] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[Wargoos]

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/arcana/345_JacetheMindSculptor_rly45ts2mv.jpg
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=99063&d=1261095603
UHM WTF?!

(for all who can't decypher his abilities:

[+2]: Look at the top card of target player’s library, you may put it on the bottom of their library.

[0]: Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.

[-1]: Return target creature to its owner’s hand.

[-12]: Exile all cards from target player’s library, then that player shuffles his or her hand into his or her library.

Control get's some new goodie I guess?

[rockout]

I like the ability to brainstorm every turn its too bad he costs 4 but still seems really good.

[Aggro_zombies]

I like the ability to brainstorm every turn its too bad he costs 4 but still seems really good.
This. Four mana restricts him pretty much to control, but he's arguably much better than Jace #1 there if there's not too much already in the four-drop slot.

[Nizmox]

It's an extra card every turn off the back of a brainstorm (with no loss to loyalty). Seems very strong to me! Probably mostly useful for Landstill.

[4eak]

I wish the +2 ability was more relevant. If it could protect itself at a net gain in loyalty counters, then I'd really love it. Even if we could just use its bounce ability as an instant, I'd be pleased.

Obviously, the cost puts it at dedicated control or at the very least, more controllish versions of agro-control.

The card looks less relevant when you are in a losing position (often the game state in the first 4 turns of a dedicated control deck).

If you drop the card while your board position is even to your opponent's, then it can quickly put your opponent away. The second brainstorm activation becomes card advantage. I think two brainstorms are easily worth an FoF, so if you can make that happen, it is efficient enough.

I think it won't make much of a splash, but it could see some play.




peace,
4eak

[Forbiddian]

Isn't there already a thread for discussing Worldwake?


Costing 4 is a bitch, and potentially dying to Lightning Bolt or Nacatl or Qasali swing or Goyf if you Brainstorm immediately is just rough. But it's so gamebreaking in the control mirror that I can't imagine it won't see play, at least in sideboards.

There's absolutely no reason to SCD this. It won't see play outside of Landstill or other control shells, so just discuss it there.

[Bardo]

Isn't there already a thread for discussing Worldwake?

Good cards (like Ponder, Thoughtseize) can have their own SCDs even if they're in a new set. This seems suitably awesome enough that it deserves its own thread.

Honestly, I love this card. The ultimate is fucking awesome. Brainstorming every turn in a format with 4 blue fetches is awesome. Unsummon is usually meh, but I like the flexibility.

Great card. Can't wait to test it in LS. Not sure if it's better than Elspeth, but the ultimate is better even if it's more of a pain to pull off (6 vs. 5 turns, if you're just ramping, but Jace will live post-ultimate)

[Nightmare]

I'm beyond excited to start testing this thing in CounterTop. Yeah, what up 4CC slot! I'll take +1 card Brainstorms all day, thanks!

[Aggro_zombies]

This guy probably slots better into Supreme Blue than any other variations on Counter-Top mostly because Supreme Blue tends towards the control end of the spectrum anyway and could milk a lot of mileage out of Brainstorm-on-a-Stick.

[Draener]

I'm beyond excited to start testing this thing in CounterTop. Yeah, what up 4CC slot! I'll take +1 card Brainstorms all day, thanks!

Exactly what I was thinking. A card that counters landstills bombs with counterbalance, as well as can be dropped for card advantage? Yes please.

[Tacosnape]

Are we sure the 0 ability puts back two cards and not three?

[umbowta]

This actually fits my pet deck perfectly even without the built in Brainstorm. I'll take two.

[workingdude]

Are we sure the 0 ability puts back two cards and not three?

Yes. The full card has been pieced together.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=206535

[Nizmox]

Exactly what I was thinking. A card that counters landstills bombs with counterbalance, as well as can be dropped for card advantage? Yes please.

EDIT Ignore me, I see what you're saying 4CC Converted mana cost

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Regular Jace is already a card draw engine for one less mana with a kill condition attached, and it's not used. You're never, ever going to get this up to twelve counters in anything but a hardlock position, so effectively you're paying four mana for a Brainstorm on a stick that died to Lightning Bolt.

Regular Jace is barely playable in Legacy and certainly better than this.

[Tao]

I agree with IBA that the Ultimate seems not that relevant in a Landstill type of deck, they would rather play Brainstorm every turn than the +2 ability. From time to time in control wars it might come in handy but usually players will rather Brainstorm until they have won by card advantage.

But I think everyone underestimates the Unsummon ability. Playing it and bouncing a Goyf seems like a strong tempo play. They have to recast it, you get to untap, Brainstorm and kill it. The original Jace had no way to defend itself so you could only play it on an empty board which was quite annoying if your removal is something like Wrath or Explosives.

[Forbiddian]

It's way better than regular Jace, if only for pinching out the mirror. I mean, you expect a better card when you pay more, but the extra cost really doesn't matter against Control, and the effect is much better.

Jace 1 is not a very good card against Aggro or Combo at any rate, so if your metagame warrants Jace 1, I can't imagine you would still run it over Jace 2, which will win the control mirror more easily.



But honestly when the hype wears down, I don't see this as being played anywhere outside of Landstill as a 1-of, and just to beat the mirror (with applications elsewhere, yes, but you wouldn't play it if there weren't any other control players in your meta).

4 mana is a fuckton in a format with Daze and Spell Pierce and a lot of aggro. Jace 2 is essentially just as easy to kill as Bob, is much more expensive, and only has a marginally better effect.

EDIT: Tao pointed out that you can bounce Goyf. Nice. So now he bolts Jace (or Magma Jets), replays the Goyf, and you're down a mana tempo after that tempolicious play. Oh, and goyf is +1/+1 because it now feeds of of Planeswalkers. Om nom nom.

[from Cairo]

EDIT: Tao pointed out that you can bounce Goyf. Nice. So now he bolts Jace (or Magma Jets), replays the Goyf, and you're down a mana tempo after that tempolicious play. Oh, and goyf is +1/+1 because it now feeds of of Planeswalkers. Om nom nom.

Errr... How is the control player down tempo? He's fogging an attack, both players are tapping 3-4 mana and are breaking even on cards? If anything I'd think the control player is gaining tempo, because they're both basically gained no ground on respective turn 4, progressing the game to turn 5, with no real change in board state (Goyf gained a P/T; and missed an attack).

The control player paid 4 mana for Jace. And bounced a Goyf, who, now recast is summoning sick (negating an attack). It cost them 2 mana to replay the Goyf and another 1-2 mana plus a card in hand answer the Jace. At 4 mana the gains are far from spectacular, but the card is clearly not geared to be good against agro anyway.

In contrast, against a Goyf in a Supreme Blue, or ProBant build or something the effect of Unsummoning it is that much better, as Tao mentions the following turn you can use the Brainstorm ability to dig for a permanent answer to it. And their deck is likely not packing direct damage to kill the 'Walker.

[Cthuloo]

I can see it definitely fitting in a Supreme Blue shell. It could be great for the deck strategy: stall/sweep the first few turns, then drop Jace and go for massive CA and card quality. He is also pretty good with counterbalance, and can basically solve the loss of Dark Confidant as a draw engine.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

To reiterate, this Jace, unlike most Planeswalkers thusfar, does not fill the alternate function of being a kill condition, not even a shitty one like old Jace (although one upside to this printing is that I can now refer to my next control deck featuring the other version as Arsenic and Old Jace).

Therefore, this is a card draw engine.

At four mana.

Need I remind you fuckers;

http://imgur.com/r1IIi.jpg http://imgur.com/4Ypw0.jpg

This. This is what new Jace is competing with.

For one more blue commitment. At sorcery speed. And dying to fucking Lightning Bolt.

Secret: Brainstorm is only good because it's drastically undercosted. No one plays fucking Compulsive Research in Legacy.

This card is to Brainstorm as Concentrate is to Ancestral Recall. With Concentrate probably being more tournament viable. While I don't want to say the card is unplayable- it's potentially fine in Block or T2- it's nowhere near matching the card drawing power of the above mentioned cards that still aren't played in a lot of control decks in Legacy.

[whiteshepherdman]

lolol @ bearassasin... I agree with you, but you sound a bit angry in your post.. I think he's much better than old jace, both of which die to lightning bolt. I wouldn't play him as more than a 1 of in landstill but in walkerstill/ultimate walker, he looks like a good replacement over old jace agree? Has bounce ability too that old jace didn't have, thus is able to save itself from a single creature threat.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you're having to use Jace's bounce ability you're already doomed.

Both Jaces die to Lightning Bolt, but three is a lot cheaper than four, old Jace can be moved out of Lightning Bolt Range (while still drawing a card), and it actually functions as a kill condition.

The fourth turn is the game breaker most of the time. You can't afford to spend it fucking around sculpting a hand, certainly not at sorcery speed.

And old Jace was borderline playable at best.

[Tinefol]

Compulsive Research does get played, although marginally. And Jace#1 is more and more of a staple in various Landstill shells - I'd say its far from 'borderline' playable.

[Forbiddian]

Compulsive Research does get played, although marginally. And Jace#1 is more and more of a staple in various Landstill shells - I'd say its far from 'borderline' playable.

Not to nitpick (although you're the one nitpicking to start with), but nobody plays Compulsive Research.

Deckcheck reveals three hits, and only one in 2009 (he played exactly one copy). Even Shock has been played in more decks in 2009 (and it is the poster child for strictly dominated spells).

If your definition of seeing play is "One guy played it one time, in the last YEAR" then ok.

[Nihil Credo]

I don't have a full hard-on for the card, but I'm quite more optimistic than IBA. "Brainstorm/Brainstorm/Brainstorm" is a hell of a lot more powerful than "Draw a card/Draw a card/Howling Mine". And that's expected for one more mana, so no surprise there. (Incidentally, old Jace was a bit more than borderline playable (http://www.deckcheck.net/print.php?ids=30221_27989_20353_26817_14055_17942_21867_21645_22389_21334_17484_25687_27737_21393_24567_20446_18096_23379_24928_25366_19246_28395_29280_29972_30466_29384_29973_29975_22907_28364_30213_24073_15747_29179_21588_28390_28044_22053_25296_25602_18102_19247_14820_27949_25652_28758_29585_30243_30245_22661_20124_20128_22519_22836_22379_28761_30375_23421_23018_24950_22515_25234_24340_25631_22010_15647_20109_19986_19886_21384_21449_21443_28760_30288_24795_27571_28053_23274_24512_24988_14977_25059_24486_30301_27525_18769_20276_21147_19830_24384_16586_20891_16880_28679_27956_29178_29644_26628_27428_23406_27807_26795_27814_24699_24600_19302_25050_23735_25327_21480_22417_15629_19985_29437_19971_29318_16584_28071_21457_16833_16708_19843_15646_19248_19654_28469_20888_23101_23073_29614_19944_26080_15117).)

What about FoF? Well, how many Brainstorms would you need to get (over as many turns) for the effect to be generally better than a FoF? Considering that FoF usually gives you (immediately!) either two good cards or three average cards, which you have to reveal, I'd say that 2-3 Jace activations can be already considered a good deal. Is it reasonable to expect to untap with Jace once or twice? Old Jace, in my experience, usually did, and, while it was cheaper, it didn't have an Unsummon button*. By the way, the instant-speed nature of Fact is not quite as relevant in a world where Counterspell sees less and less play. Likewise, the flammability of this planeswalker is less of a drawback since your dome is generally a better target for burn spells from turn 4 onwards (not a particularly comforting image, I know).

*Which is less an emergency button than mana generation - it gives you one more turn to deal with the creature you were going to have to deal with on the turn you played Jace instead. The difference between 2 and 3 loyalty isn't actually that big, because 2-power attackers are mostly relegated to control decks where you won't use Unsummon anyway (exception: Goblins, but even there only Warchief/Chieftain is a sensible Unsummon target)

The win condition, yeah, they could have omitted it for little loss of value (at least in Legacy). The +2, however, isn't quite as bad as it looks, it's got a solid chance of generating almost-card advantage, particularly after a Brainstorm. It will usually be better than old Jace's.

Another thing worth noting: due to the planeswalker rules, Jace 1 and Jace 2 get killed by the legend rule if they're ever in play together. So running both in the same deck is problematic (though you probably can get away with a 1/1 or even 2/1 split). Also, it means that in the control mirror you likely don't want to faff around too much with their +2 abilities unless you're very confident in your counter wall.

tl;dr: Lack of good 4cc card drawing wasn't one of Control's big problems, but getting a card drawer with Wand of Unsummon (2 charges) tackled on will still be pretty darn nice.

[jazzykat]

At first I was overly excited about this card. After considering the pros and cons I can't stay excited over him. The type of decks that need him, actually need to affect the board (like Elspeth). Elspeth is really good because she protects herself both by adding counters and creating a dork to chump (this makes her +5 and can block 1 attacker). This Jace let's you scry to add counters and get it out of bolt range. With countertop protection it could be great but hey so could dreadnought for winning the game

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you're using the unsummon button, you're not getting cards.

The answer:

Three. You would have to use new Jace three times.

Not to be better than Fact or Fiction, mind. That's just to be better than Foresight. A card that nobody plays. Or Careful Consideration, which gives you the option of going instant.

[Tinefol]

Deckcheck reveals three hits, and only one in 2009 (he played exactly one copy). Even Shock has been played in more decks in 2009 (and it is the poster child for strictly dominated spells).

If your definition of seeing play is "One guy played it one time, in the last YEAR" then ok.

Not everything goes on deckcheck. For example: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=392889&postcount=85. I've seen it being played somewhere else. I've played it myself. The point is, its far from being awful. Far from being that 'Shock' of draw spells. Still marginal, yes.

The point about Planeswalkers, that people seem to be deliberately missing is that those are not one-shot effects and can be used multiple times. I've very ofen used the old Jace for turns and turns, greatly surpassing the amount of cards any given one-shot spell would have gotten me. And it doesn't require mana investment every turn.

[lebarion]

The new Jace is cool, but I'm unsure it will see play in Legacy.
The unsummon ability, while interesting for being flexible and probably wonderful with countertop, is weak against aggro. If you immediately unsummon your opponent's Goyf, Jace immediately gets vulnerable to Grim Lavamancer.
But I'd love to see something good with new Jace and Island Sanctuary :smile:

[paK0]

Well, i think this guy is nice but I'm pretty sure i won't have to buy some. At 4cc cards have to be real bombs to be played and since this guy cannot protect himself, dies to Bolt and cannot win the game alone he's not gonna be played much.

[xXxBretWeedxXx]

The new Jace is cool, but I'm unsure it will see play in Legacy.
The unsummon ability, while interesting for being flexible and probably wonderful with countertop, is weak against aggro. If you immediately unsummon your opponent's Goyf, Jace immediately gets vulnerable to Grim Lavamancer.
But I'd love to see something good with new Jace and Island Sanctuary :smile:

I fail to see how Jace combos in any way with Island Sanctuary.

[FoolofaTook]

I fail to see how Jace combos in any way with Island Sanctuary.

My assumption is that he's talking about combining the 0 ability with Island Sanctuary (and I guess also Solitary Confinement) to get around the stagnation that being unable to draw produces.

[Nihil Credo]

Problem is, Island Sanctuary, like Ghostly Prison (but unlike Moat) doesn't protect planeswalkers.

[Maveric78f]

Another thing worth noting: due to the planeswalker rules, Jace 1 and Jace 2 get killed by the legend rule if they're ever in play together. So running both in the same deck is problematic (though you probably can get away with a 1/1 or even 2/1 split). Also, it means that in the control mirror you likely don't want to faff around too much with their +2 abilities unless you're very confident in your counter wall.
That's what I thought first too. Then I realised that new Jace would shuffle back the extra copies in the library. So it's not as much of adefault as it seemed. And you can kill old Jace quite easily after drawing 3 cards off of him. Not a bad trade actually.

I would not fear playing 3+3 actually, but I can't see which deck would like to spend so many cards at doing barely nothing.

[Tacosnape]

New Jace is just a hair overcosted. There's very little wrong with a Brainstorm on a stick that gets two Unsummons. Which this is. His first and last abilities are irrelevant unless, like the old Jace, he's suddenly become your only kill condition.

Again, though, Old Jace dying to a Lightning Bolt isn't a bad thing. You pay 3 mana, your opponent pays 1, You lose 0 cards, they lose 1. The sum of this math is that you pay 2 mana more than your opponent for a card advantage of 1. This is fairly standard for Legacy.

New Jace dying to Lightning Bolt is a hair tougher. You pay 4, you Brainstorm, they pay 1, you lose Jace. the three mana for the card advantage is a bit steeper.

The problem with 4-drop Planeswalkers is having the board clear for them. If the opponent has a threat? Ajani Vengeant Helixes and keeps tapped. Elspeth makes blockers forever. Jace TMS has to bounce. Which means the creature's coming right back, which means once you get your untap step, the Brainstorm ability had better net you a removal spell. And if you lead with Bounce, your card advantage will be screwed when he gets zapped.

Jace the Mind Sculptor is ungodly powerful if completely unchecked. However, his odds of being unchecked and the number of things that can go wrong with him are much higher.

[FoolofaTook]

Problem is, Island Sanctuary, like Ghostly Prison (but unlike Moat) doesn't protect planeswalkers.

Solitary Confinement + Moat would protect Jace most of the time, I think. If you can't be targeted by spells and effects a Planeswalker is also protected? Of course if you can get Moat, Solitary Confinement and 4cc Jace in play with a blue control deck you really should be able to find a more efficient way to kill with that level of resources.

[Aggro_zombies]

Solitary Confinement + Moat would protect Jace most of the time, I think. If you can't be targeted by spells and effects a Planeswalker is also protected?
Only from targeted burn spells. He can still be hit with Vindicate, and the opponent may still be able to choose to redirect non-targeted damage to him (from, say, Earthquake).

[lebarion]

Problem is, Island Sanctuary, like Ghostly Prison (but unlike Moat) doesn't protect planeswalkers.

Hmm, I didn't realise that.
I think it wouldn't work, anyway. Probably too slow to stop Zoo and some aggro decks.

[spirit of the wretch]

Call me glass half empty, but he won't see play!

Just a quick run down on 4cc cards in the format: Humility, Elspeth, Wraths, Gifts, Fact, Natural Order, Swans of Bryn Argoll, Rafiq, Garruk, Ajanis...
and a lot of those don't see any play. A card has to be REALLY powerful to make the cut if its CC is over three.

He's obiously preety awesome for highlander though.

[Otter]

Might as well just quote my post about the +2 from the landstill thread instead of rephrasing it:


I would not underestimate the +2, not to say that it's usually better than spamming Brainstorms, but it can certainly have its uses. For instance, if they have CB out with no top, it can clear the way for your spells. If they tap a Top to draw, he can get rid of the Top for good. If you get them into a bad situation, it can make them far less likely to draw outs. Let's say you're against Rg Goblins and have Humility+Elspeth in play. Their only out is Krosan Grip and you can't counter that, so it's a better play to check the top of their deck every turn for Grip than spend it Brainstorming. It can also mess with opposing Ponders, pull nifty tricks with things like Submerge, and plenty of other little things. It's nothing to dismiss.

Regarding the rest of the card, obviously an unsummon isn't something you want to be doing, but if you're in blue you probably have countermagic. If they slip a Goyf onto the field and then you find a Spell Snare, that unsummon is probably looking pretty solid. He does cost four mana, but at least his effect is pretty crazy if you can protect him for a little bit. I don't think we'll ever see a deck running three of him, but I could see one or two showing up in places.

[Bardo]

Other than Zoo (a good deck, but it's not like 15-20% of the metagame) and janky burn decks, who plays Lightning Bolt?

I realize the "dies to Lightning Bolt" has been a standard in the game forever, but think that test is outdated. And if hardly any deck plays a card, there's no reason to compare against it.

[Otter]

Other than Zoo (a good deck, but it's not like 15-20% of the metagame) and janky burn decks, who plays Lightning Bolt?

I realize the "dies to Lightning Bolt" has been a standard in the game forever, but think that test is outdated. And if hardly any deck plays a card, there's no reason to compare against it.

Tempo Thresh plays it too, but I do agree with your overall point.

[FoolofaTook]

Decks that play Lightning Bolt (in order of likely seeing them at this point):

Zoo, Tempo Threshold, Goyf Sligh, Ugr Dreadstill, Burn, Ultimate Walker. In the northeast Legacy meta that would probably be a solid 20% of your likely opponents.

[Shugyosha]

If your opponent plays Bolts, which you will know when you have 2:u::u: ready you simply activate +2 first and he is out of Boltrange.

In control decks he's essentially the same as Beleren but he costs one mana more, has no drawback in his abilities has limited protection which has synergy with counterspells/Balance and is nuts when he does his stuff for 2-3 turns.

A cmc 4 spell has to win the game or prevent you from losing it. Thats why Wrath, Elspeth, Humility and such are played. Don't you think a Brainstorm every turn or bounce with counters in hand/Balance in play will win you the game if not answered quickly?

[Ectoplasm]

The unsummon isn't the reason to play this card, like alot of people are making it out to be. It's just an added bonus :). It means you can drop him on a table with a single creature and standstill after, because they won't have their creature around, or it means you can send a dreadnought or tombstalker back to where it came from, from time to time.

From where I stand Jace TMS is a brainstorm factory that could double as a killcon after netting you a hand full of cards, with some built-in flexibility.

I'm going to modify my landstill list slightly (add a little more board control) and play two of these suckers instead of my old draw package, which consists of two FoFs and an old Jace.

[Forbiddian]

Other than Zoo (a good deck, but it's not like 15-20% of the metagame) and janky burn decks, who plays Lightning Bolt?

I realize the "dies to Lightning Bolt" has been a standard in the game forever, but think that test is outdated. And if hardly any deck plays a card, there's no reason to compare against it.

You fail to understand the problem. "Lightning Bolt" is just shorthand for "anything that does three damage."

It's not referring exclusively the literal card, Lightning Bolt, which should have been obvious, but I guess it wasn't.


Silvergill Adept pumped by a Lord will get it done (what, will you bounce their Silvergill?). Nimble Mongoose will bash in. Goyf will bash in. Qasali will bash in, or Nacatl (or bolt or chain or Helix all from that deck). Two goblins takes it out. Ichorid takes it out. If it had one more hitpoint, it wouldn't die in one swing.

About half the played sources of damage in the format do 3 damage. Most sources that do less do secondary jobs, like Silvergill Adept, Bob, or Trygon Predator.

But the general cutoff for playability is that, if all the card does is damage, it has to do at least 3.

Yes, "Lightning Bolt" only sees play in about 20-30% of the metagame (actually, I think this is the highest it's ever been -- Zoo, 4c NLU, Tempo Thresh all run it, and are all very popular, so I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about when you say it's on the decline), but certainly the set of "cards that do at least three damage" is higher than ever.




Incidentally, it only has to get about two brainstorms off before it has more absolute power than Fact (depending on what you have drawn, and how many cards you want to/can shuffle away). It might even have more absolute power than Fact off the first activation if you have two crap cards you want to ditch and/or your opponent has to spend cards and time taking it out.

It's worse than fact if your opponent has an answer immediately, and better than fact if your opponent has to scramble to pick up an answer (minus, of course, the fact that you need to tap out during your own mainphase).

[Infinitium]

I will definetly try this out in a blue stax shell. Between this and Intuition it might actually be able to generate enough card selection to overcome its inherent consistency issues (as well as filling a permanent based creature "removing" role that the archetype desperatly needs).

Oh, and it will be able to run Uba Mask as a sideboard card versus combo and control which is nothing short of awesome.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Realistically, you have to activate new Jace about three times for it to actually be better than Careful Consideration. A card that sees no play because Fact or Fiction is better. I think Forbiddian's picture of the card is actually excessively rosy.

If the card were an even remotely tenable kill condition, I wouldn't be taking this position. But as a kill condition it's absolutely, atrociously bad.

Most Planeswalkers that have seen play in Legacy (and other formats) have been pushed by two factors;

1) As a new card type, there are relatively few cards that deal with Planeswalkers. Burn spells, creatures, and the odd Vindicate or Maelstrom Pulse or whatever.

2) Every viable Planeswalker has been a multifunctional card advantage engine that doubled as a threat.

Is new Jace a card advantage engine? Yes. Does it double as a threat? No. Additionaly, unlike every other viable Planeswalker, it neither comes with enough Loyalty to survive a reasonable hit on it's own, nor is it's loyalty-pumping ability remotely relevant or useful. With other Planeswalkers you could race damage with something to show for it. Garruk and Ajani Venjeant protected themselves. Old Jace was the most vulnerable if you didn't want to go Howling Mine, but it could reasonably double as a kill condition. It also curved into Wrath instead of cockblocking it.

In case I haven't expressed it in strong enough terms;

I would legitimately rather play Arcanis the Omnipotent, to hardcast, than this card. At least then I could have a kill condition and not lose to Lightning Bolts and Nimble Mongeese.

[Kagehisa]

This Jace reminds me Browse... in a way... It "draws" multiple cards then can empty the library for the softlock with Soldevi Digger. (remember Finkel's counter-post)

I don't know how he sucks or good he is but I was thinking of building (on paper only...) a deck around him in Legacy more than putting him in an already built deck...

Ancestral Vision ?
Foil ?
Thwart ?
Daze ?
Brainstorm ?
Force of Will ?
fetchland(s) ?
Misdirection ?
Time Warp ?
Snow-Covered Island + Scrying sheets ?
Stasis ?
Beacon of Tomorrows ?
Ensnare ?

And that was obvious for me (but maybe not for Legacy) :

Archmage ascension !? (I'm still asking... combo here ?)

[Nidd]

I think he works best when he teams up with Tezzeret for a good Mono Blue Stax.
That deck lacks a way to gain CA. Jace solves that. Archmage Ascension does look too cool then, though.

[Digital Devil]

I don't understand why a Brainstorm for :2::u::u: is now considered broken. The original Jace barely sees any play, since Ajani Vengeant and Elspeth are just better. The fact that the new Jace lacks a *strong* built-in win condition, unlike Ajani and Elspeth, makes it a subpar choice, IMHO. That said, Jace 2.0 is merely a draw engine, but for the same amount of mana I can get Fact or Fiction which has an immediate impact on the game. If you play Landstill and tap 4 lands, you expect to do something broken. Either killing all creatures, or making them 1/1s, or blowing up everything except for lands the next turn. A 4cmc card must turn the table to be playable. And Fact or Fiction is rarely played even in Landstill, which I think is the only deck capable of running 1-2 of those new Planeswalkers. A similar hype happened also when they spoiled Lorescale Coatl. Test it, then make your considerations.

P.S. Please avoid flame, it generally makes the [SCD] threads locked.

[Bardo]

You fail to understand the problem. "Lightning Bolt" is just shorthand for "anything that does three damage."

It's not referring exclusively the literal card, Lightning Bolt, which should have been obvious, but I guess it wasn't. ...

Yes, "Lightning Bolt" only sees play in about 20-30% of the metagame (actually, I think this is the highest it's ever been -- Zoo, 4c NLU, Tempo Thresh all run it, and are all very popular, so I have no idea what the fuck you're talking about when you say it's on the decline)

Sigh. When most people say "dies to Lightning Bolt," I don't think they mean, it "dies to Tarmogoyf" or "dies to a thresh'd Nimble Mongoose." What's just weird. I think most people to make it to mean any direct damage that does three damage.

If you're worried about Chain Lightning, Rift Bolt, w/e, you just activate the +2 ability before passing priority. If Wild Nacatl is on board, either bounce it, +2 Jace or remove it with another fucking card. It's not like the some theoretical deck with new Jace is that card + 56 lands, you know? Besides, these conversations are out of context with actual games. You're probably not going to throw down new Jace when your board is empty and your're staring at 4 opposing Island-walking Merfolk. You're going to lose that game.

Lastly, if the Dec 2009 SCG $5K (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=leg&start_date=2009-12-13&end_date=2009-12-20) is any indication of a typical metagame, decks playing Lightning Bolt (and other DD cards) are just around 18% of the top 16. One each of Zoo, Tempo Thresh and Sligh in the Top 16.


I don't understand why a Brainstorm for :2::u::u: is now considered broken
The debate is on whether or not this card is good enough to see play, not if it's going to break the metagame. If the card just said "Draw 3 cards, put 2 back" for 4 mana, we would not be discussing it. It's about all of the pieces together.

[FieryBalrog]

I think you guys are underestimating the new Jace.

First of all, I think he's a pretty good fit as a 1 of (maybe 2 of) in slower Countertop decks. Countertop these days is barely aggro-control, its more like control that can win fast because of Goyf. New Jace is much better than old Jace because he has more ways to protect himself. Sure, he's not THAT great when you're losing, but none of the Planeswalkers really are, including Elspeth. He's fantastic on an even board position though because he can do whatever you want. He should never be dying to Lightning Bolt except in special cases, because if you know your opponent is playing Bolt and is likely to have it you just use the +2 the turn he comes down and they're gonna be pretty hard pressed to Bolt him. Then next turn on you get to Brainstorm each turn for free which should basically put you way ahead after a couple of turns unchecked (something not necessarily true of Elspeth).

If your opponent has a single creature, you can still play Jace and unsummon him. Replay the dork, you say? You're playing blue! Unsummon comboes well with the free/1-mana counterspells if they happened to slip a creature past your counter wall, and you're not spending a card to do it if Jace lives another turn. On top of that Unsummon effect is particularly good against Tombstalker, and more niche cases like Dreadnought and Marit Lage.

Often times you'll have a Rhox War Monk out or whatever, your opponent has a couple of dorks, the game is reasonably even- you land Jace and bam, massive shift in your favor because Planeswalkers in general are very tough to deal with if the board position is anywhere near even.

The worst time to play Jace is when you're losing significantly- sure, I already mentioned that. But even then, he can usually buy you a turn or two between unsummoning a threatening dork and having them deal with him.

Think of it this way- Elspeth sees a decent amount of play. What does Elspeth really do? She can get you a free card each turn, but its a 1/1 dork while Jace can search and get you a good card from your deck each turn, better with shuffling effects. Elspeth's clock is a bit harder to disrupt, but Jace has an unsummon effect. Elspeth can take an existing creature and speed up the clock in some cases. On the whole I think he's nearly as good.

P.S. Why does tapping out during your main phase even matter that much these days, heh. Who runs Counterspell? Only Landstill, and only sometimes, and only as about a 2 of.

[Apex]

Seriously, against decks with Bolts, don't pass priority and gain +2 if you suspect that your opponent has bolt in his hand. But you can easily still activate the Brainstorm option if your opponent is tapped out, or you think that it's very unlikely that they would have bolt, since you Thoughtseized or something (or an educated guess, based on how they've played), or you have CB/Top out, and you don't care, etc. Then, even if they went and bolted it, you still got a Brainstorm activation and took a bolt out of your opponent's hand. That's pretty sweet.

Though the 4 cmc is a bit of a bummer, as it competes with Humility/Wrath. Maybe we can build a deck that plays cheaper sweepers like Firespout/EE/etc, and then slam down Jace for the consistent card advantage/selection to secure the win, so I guess, something like a Supreme Blue variant?

[Forbiddian]

Sigh. When most people say "dies to Lightning Bolt," I don't think they mean, it "dies to Tarmogoyf" or "dies to a thresh'd Nimble Mongoose." What's just weird. I think most people to make it to mean any direct damage that does three damage.

Such a weak semantic argument. Even if you have the belief that everyone was talking about Lightning Bolts and nobody had discussed creatures, yet, it's obvious that Goyfs and Threshed Gooses and just about every creature in the format pose as much or more of a problem than direct damage.

But anyway, the point that IBA and I are trying to make is that the three hitpoints makes Jace #2 a huge liability -- one you shouldn't have to worry about if you're forking over FOUR mana for it.


If you're worried about Chain Lightning, Rift Bolt, w/e, you just activate the +2 ability before passing priority. If Wild Nacatl is on board, either bounce it, +2 Jace or remove it with another fucking card.

The problem is the fact that Jace needs so much additional backup (as opposed to, say, Elspeth). Elspeth could make a 1/1, take or chump the hit of the goose (or a bolt), and still be a real presence in the game while you draw to answers. Just the presence of Wild Nacatl or Nimble Mongoose (or the threat of a lightning bolt) makes you downshift Jace to running his crappy secondary abilities.



You're probably not going to throw down new Jace when your board is empty and your're staring at 4 opposing Island-walking Merfolk. You're going to lose that game.


Funny how you bring up "you still lose" in reference to a claim of "four opposing island-walking Merfolk" when you don't talk about the win-more factor. At any rate, it doesn't take four island-walking merfolk to kill Jace, it takes a Silvergill Adept in play and a Lord in hand.

If I'm paying four mana for it, it should be able to do something on its own, otherwise it's simply win-more. If I can clear the board against Zoo, have enough life that they can't burn me out, spend a turn adding counters, then still have enough time to chain-brainstorm my way to victory... why not just play Elspeth? By that point, Elspeth would have like 8 counters and have 4 1/1 guys running around ready to ultimate.

In fact, if you fulfilled the ridiculous conditions for keeping a Jace alive and using Brainstorm against Zoo, ANY played four casting cost spell would seal the game.



Lastly, if the Dec 2009 SCG $5K is any indication of a typical metagame, decks playing Lightning Bolt (and other DD cards) are just around 18% of the top 16. One each of Zoo, Tempo Thresh and Sligh in the Top 16.

Pretty much what I guessed, but thanks. I will note that direct damage still isn't the real problem facing Jace, it's creatures and the fact that Jace goes into "oh shit" mode when your opponent has a one drop.



About "how many turns until Jace has more effect than Fact or Fiction" I still think it's one untap step.

If your opponent bolts immediately, you pay 2UU (3 mana extra over your opponent) for a Brainstorm and a Duress. That's not a great play, but that is when your opponent has the answer immediately (assuming a cleared board).

If your opponent has, say, a Rift Bolt (or for whatever other reason he has to let you untap with Jace), you paid 2UU (3 extra) for two Brainstorms and a Duress. You're drawing 6 cards (even without a shuffle effect, you see 4 extra cards you wouldn't have seen and keep two of the best ones), and you duress your opponent, whereas Fact or Fiction would be look at the tap 5, keep the best two or the three worst (usually).

The real problem is creatures, though. Jace can't be played against two opposing creatures (unlike Elspeth).


I have no idea why this is a SCD, though. Every SCD completely sucks, not because it boils down to a flame war or w/e, but because it quickly becomes obvious that the card is only playable in one archetype (or two archetypes where it fulfills vastly different roles). Everything that has been said should have been said in the Landstill thread or the respective threads as people try this out and then realize it costs too much for their bant aggro deck. There are even people quoting shit out of different threads and re-posting them in different threads, and some people saying you'll have Rhox War Monk to cover Jace anyway, and other people saying that you'll have Firespout or Wrath of God. AHH!!

Bardo summed it up perfectly:


It's not like the some theoretical deck with new Jace is that card + 56 lands, you know? Besides, these conversations are out of context with actual games.

Obviously you feel that way. That's because it's a fucking SCD thread.

[Kangaxx]

I think that this card can see some play in MUC along with maindeck Predicts. But I can't think of any other deck that would be able to use her efficiently.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Let's talk about Landstill then.

Essentially, when I hear people advocating this card over another planeswalker, even Old Jace, it's basically like listening to someone advocate the running of, say, Seek the Horizon over Eternal Dragon, or Thirst for Knowledge instead of Decree of Justice.

"But Eternal Dragon just grabs you one crappy plains! You can get [i]three lands with Seek the Horizon!""

"But DoJ just draws you one card for three mana! You're at least getting better selection with TfK, if not outright card advantage!"

The flaw, of course, is that you're not running either card for their drawing capability alone, but because of their double function. While not dead early game, they're there to win late game. You really don't have that much room to maneuver in a control deck; you need to be packing your deck with answers and a way to switch roles to deal with various threats. You want your own kill conditions to be multifunctional. Preferably you're trying to get as much utility and flexibility out of each card as you can.

New Jace, at four mana, is fighting for space with cards like Wrath, Disk, Humility, Ajani Venjeant, Elspeth, Cryptic Command, Fact or Fiction or Gifts Ungiven, all but the latter two of which are very multifunctional, and the latter two of which can immediately turn a game around upon resolution.

New Jace, on the other hand, is basically only good in most situations if you're already winning or maybe against another control deck. And that mirror's rarer than the decks running Lightning Bolt or Tarmogoyf.

[Illissius]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I don't see where the idea that Old Jace is a kill condition whereas New Jace is not is coming from. With Old Jace, you activate the +2 ability, a more-or-less neutral effect, for four turns, following which your opponent's library is shortened by 20 cards. With New Jace, you activate the +2 ability, a modestly positive effect, for five turns, following which your opponent loses their hand and their library is shortened to, at most, 7 cards. How is the former more of a kill condition than the latter?

[from Cairo]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I don't see where the idea that Old Jace is a kill condition whereas New Jace is not is coming from. With Old Jace, you activate the +2 ability, a more-or-less neutral effect, for four turns, following which your opponent's library is shortened by 20 cards. With New Jace, you activate the +2 ability, a modestly positive effect, for five turns, following which your opponent loses their hand and their library is shortened to, at most, 7 cards. How is the former more of a kill condition than the latter?

It's not. The gain Loyalty and Ultimates on both Jaces suck. Sure either could be a fall back if one's out of other options to kill their opponent, but neither are impressive.

The plus to the Old Jace is that it costs 3 mana which is generally an underused CMC in Legacy control, so in multicolor decks - Landstill, Speedstill, Ultimate Walker, etc - you can play out Old Jace, and then follow it up with a good turn 4 bomb the turn after - Wrath of God, Elspeth, Ajani, Humilty, etc.

Honestly, I don't think the New Jace competes with with Elspeth or Ajani in terms of playability. If the deck is UWx I would run Elspeth all day over the New Jace. If the X is Red, I'd include Ajani Vengeant before looking to the New Jace.

I think the decks that will consider running the New Jace are the Blue ones that aren't White splashed decks. Tier 2 decks like MUC, MU Stax, Faerie Stompy, etc; None of these decks have really had a Planeswalker that's fit their deck's CCs before. Being 2UU it lends itself to the the Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors mana bases, and it gives those decks something that's pretty synergistic with Chalice of the Void answering Bolt effects and then having the ability to bounce guys that make it into play or draw/filter versus control. The New Jace might not fit into these types of decks either, but it's probably worth testing.

[FieryBalrog]

I still think Jace deserves considerations in decks outside Landstill, like Supreme Blue, so I don't see why he's only limited to one possible archetype or only limited to various T2 mono blue decks like MUC or Fairy Stompy.



The problem is the fact that Jace needs so much additional backup (as opposed to, say, Elspeth). Elspeth could make a 1/1, take or chump the hit of the goose (or a bolt), and still be a real presence in the game while you draw to answers. Just the presence of Wild Nacatl or Nimble Mongoose (or the threat of a lightning bolt) makes you downshift Jace to running his crappy secondary abilities.

But if you're worried about drawing to answers, Elspeth gives you a single turn (against 2 creatures; both 'walkers are OK vs. one creature, each better in certain situations). You can also do that with Jace by simply brainstorming the turn he comes down- in which case he's given you a single turn to find an answer. He's much better at finding answers than Elspeth is.

[Forbiddian]

But if you're worried about drawing to answers, Elspeth gives you a single turn (against 2 creatures; both 'walkers are OK vs. one creature, each better in certain situations). You can also do that with Jace by simply brainstorming the turn he comes down- in which case he's given you a single turn to find an answer. He's much better at finding answers than Elspeth is.

It's usually not about drawing the answer, but getting time to untap and resolve the answer, especially against faster decks. Elspeth IS that answer, while Jace is a small probability that an answer might be on top of your deck (which you won't get to use for another turn).

In the clutch situation where you might cast a walker into a 2-opposing creature board, I can't think of a situation where I would want to cast Jace over Elspeth (unless the situation starts with, "Well, the top card of your library is bad, but then the NEXT TWO CARDS are...").

Elspeth blocks a Nacatl all day long (until Ult, a very legitimate threat). Against a two creature board, he can not only survive the attack, but also puts your opponent in a tough decision:

Say you have a 4/5 Goyf and a 3/3 Goose. Your opponent tapped out to cast an Elspeth, made a token, and is sitting at 14 life. You know that you'll lose the very long game.

Do you commit both creatures to attacking the Elspeth? Elspeth will live another turn and fog you once again, even if your opponent has no answer?

Do you commit both creatures to attacking the enemy player? This gives him the opportunity to block, or not. He'll probably take the 3, block the Goyf, and Elspeth will have 6 Loyalty next turn and your decision becomes much harder, because Elspeth will be able to SURVIVE two pokes by Goose, and is closer to Ulting. Splits just give your opponent more options.

Compare to Jace, who never will put your opponent in even decision time. Goose just pokes her (him?) and he continues the beats. You just paid 2UU for Brainstorm, gain 3 life. Yup.

[Illissius]

Jace is male, Elspeth is female.

[Lothian]

That's some card !

It's Blue, 4 mana permanent, brainstorm + unsummon + 5 turns clock if unchecked while filtering the opponent's deck

WOW

This is the card Blue is at last deserving: The Mind Sculptor !

How elegant

Artwork, color fitting, playability, it's all there

A pure beauty

Stasis will love that guy

[Nidd]

That's some card !

It's Blue, 4 mana permanent, brainstorm + unsummon + 5 turns clock if unchecked while filtering the opponent's deck

WOW

This is the card Blue is at last deserving: The Mind Sculptor !

How elegant

Artwork, color fitting, playability, it's all there

A pure beauty

Stasis will love that guy
Too bad Stasis is like... T100.000

[MattH]

I was a lot more excited about this card until I realized SDT basically counters the fateseal entirely. Booooo

[alderon666]

I was a lot more excited about this card until I realized SDT basically counters the fateseal entirely. Booooo

For 2 mana a turn?

1 mana to hide the good card and then another to draw it.

[Bardo]

I've been testing 3x New Jace in place of 3x FOF in Landstill the past few days and really dig him. Dunno if he's going to cut it after testing, but I really like the fateseal ability ability (most decks don't play Top, but it is pretty useless there). The Unsummon ability is good when you want to lay Standstill; BStorm on a stick seems great, though I've only used it a couple of times. Just a fun and powerful card that has a lot of flexibility. GJ, R&D.

[FoolofaTook]

I think Jace is going to be a very flexible card. He's 4cc for Counterbalance, he's blue for Force of Will, he can immediately recoup his card cost, he can unsummon something that is going to kill you after you have stacked the deck to be able to counter it the next turn, he can even do the fateseal thing - although that seems kind of weak given the current meta and his casting cost.

I think Elspeth is stronger, but I think the power level in Jace is strong enough that he's an acceptable play over Elpseth in the right deck, although not in the Landstill-ish decks that currently use Elspeth as their power win con.

[Jak]

Card is pretty bad. I mean, it has these cool abilities, but the first one sucks and you can't use the game winner without using the first one for five turns. This really limits it to Brainstorm and Unsummon, both effects not worth 4 mana at sorcery speed, even with the ability to use it over and over. Maybe if the format wasn't infested with aggro or tempo decks focused on denying you casting spells via mana disruption, I could see this card as a 1-2 of. Right now it is weak.

[pi4meterftw]

I think Jace is going to be a very flexible card. He's 4cc for Counterbalance, he's blue for Force of Will, he can immediately recoup his card cost, he can unsummon something that is going to kill you after you have stacked the deck to be able to counter it the next turn, he can even do the fateseal thing - although that seems kind of weak given the current meta and his casting cost.

I think Elspeth is stronger, but I think the power level in Jace is strong enough that he's an acceptable play over Elpseth in the right deck, although not in the Landstill-ish decks that currently use Elspeth as their power win con.

It would require a meta of eager cadets and grizzly bears for the fateseal to be strong, so I don't know why you said "given the current meta."

Why do people think having 4cc for counterbalance is a good thing? Obviously the most common casting costs in legacy are 1 and 2, and the most important thing to stop is 2. You get goyfs, bobs, black removal, wishes, loams, chalice at 1, etc.

It is a negative to not be casting cost 2. Okay, if you're statistically inclined, you may have thought: but what about the fact that with top I have choices? Sure, that's why 1 and 0 are good too, but 4 is so ridiculously uncommon (only hardcore control decks; not even combo like ad nauseam, reanimator... And even then not even all hardcore control decks will care that much when you have a 4). Plus what are you going to do? Spin top over and over and never draw jace? Jace is only not total trash in the control matchup.

I don't get why "counterbalances at 4" could possibly be calculated to carry stronger benefits than drawbacks.

Also, Forbiddian posted a list of reasons why Jace is bad, but then people chimed in afterward with bs like "But I feel Jace is good!" It loses to creatures, it breaks ~ even with any 3 point burn spell. I'd consider it a roughly neutral trade to trade your 4 mana to his 1 mana, and get an extra brainstorm in terms of cards. But the ridiculous analysis here is people will then say, "well you also didn't take 3 damage!" That's already been accounted for... you can't double count advantages like that. Like on page 1, you'll find some guy saying:




Errr... How is the control player down tempo? He's fogging an attack, both players are tapping 3-4 mana and are breaking even on cards? If anything I'd think the control player is gaining tempo, because they're both basically gained no ground on respective turn 4, progressing the game to turn 5, with no real change in board state (Goyf gained a P/T; and missed an attack).

The control player paid 4 mana for Jace. And bounced a Goyf, who, now recast is summoning sick (negating an attack). It cost them 2 mana to replay the Goyf and another 1-2 mana plus a card in hand answer the Jace. At 4 mana the gains are far from spectacular, but the card is clearly not geared to be good against agro anyway.

I'd actually say this is a borderline really dishonest debating technique, since I find it hard to believe that you could actually support this kind of ridiculous counting. You first say "both players are tapping 3-4 mana."

Okay, but the burn player tapped 3, and the Jace player tapped 4, or the burn player played magma jet and scored a free scry. That's like:

I play darksteel collosus. He swords to plowshares it. That's okay, we broke even on tempo, because we both spent 1-11 mana. But then we also broke even on life too! Cause we both gained 0-11 life.

And then you cite things that have already gotten computed in like how the goyf was bounced. Missing an attack step is not tempo unless the control player makes a land drop, but you're probably going to find it hard to make that 5th land drop when you didn't spend turn 4 playing anything that got you new cards to look at. (Cause you bounced his goyf.) Also, you say things like "the game progresses to turn 5 with no real change in board state, except goyf missed an attack and then it's now bigger." But missing an attack step is part of the deal for "no change" unless board state doesn't include life, but obviously life matters. The +1/+1 is a big deal though. If goyf players always had opponents that were just like: it's "only" +1/+1, then goyf would be format dominating instead of only ubiquitous.

Jace requires some ridiculous conditions to be satisfied to be good. First of all, nimble mongoose most definitely can't be a presence in your metagame. You also must not be playing white. Also, you have to be allergic to fact or fiction, and even like type two/extended draw spells. You have to be playing a control deck, and your metagame really should be predominantly control. Also, even after all this, you must be having a bet with your friend that you can win a tournament despite having Jace in your deck.

[Illissius]

Brainstorm and Unsummon, both effects not worth 4 mana at sorcery speed

As opposed to, say, a 1/1 token?

[Jak]

As opposed to, say, a 1/1 token?

Um yeah. Both of those don't add loyalty counter while making a blocker/attacker does. Plus this makes the "game winner" ability actually relevant.

[FoolofaTook]

Why do people think having 4cc for counterbalance is a good thing? Obviously the most common casting costs in legacy are 1 and 2, and the most important thing to stop is 2. You get goyfs, bobs, black removal, wishes, loams, chalice at 1, etc.

Sower of Temptation, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Ill-Gotten Gains, Fact or Fiction, Ajani Vengeant, Dread Return, Smokestack, Armageddon, Humility, Moat, Engineered Explosives @4 (to dodge Counterbalance), Reverent Silence, Natural Order, Goblin Charbelcher, Rakdos Pit-Dragon, Chalice of the Void @2.

That's just off the decks listed in the most recent top 8's on deckcheck.net. I'll admit that I think having a 4cc for Counterbalance is most likely to help in the long game against a control deck whose plan is to get 4 mana in play and then overwhelm you.

BTW, I left several 4cc spells that were in those top 8 decks off the list, because the cards involved often were not cast (Goblin Ringleader) but cheated into play or would not pose a threat to a typical counterbalance deck (the traps) or seemed a bit unlikely to actually be used effectively against CounterTop (Damnation).

I think just having Natural Order, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Dread Return (with Cabal Therapy preceding it), Smokestack and Armageddon, EE @4 and Humility on the list is enough to blow the whole "you'll never see a 4cc spell you care about" argument up.

[pi4meterftw]

Sower of Temptation, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Ill-Gotten Gains, Fact or Fiction, Ajani Vengeant, Dread Return, Smokestack, Armageddon, Humility, Moat, Engineered Explosives @4 (to dodge Counterbalance), Reverent Silence, Natural Order, Goblin Charbelcher, Rakdos Pit-Dragon, Chalice of the Void @2.

That's just off the decks listed in the most recent top 8's on deckcheck.net. I'll admit that I think having a 4cc for Counterbalance is most likely to help in the long game against a control deck whose plan is to get 4 mana in play and then overwhelm you.

BTW, I left several 4cc spells that were in those top 8 decks off the list, because the cards involved often were not cast (Goblin Ringleader) but cheated into play or would not pose a threat to a typical counterbalance deck (the traps) or seemed a bit unlikely to actually be used effectively against CounterTop (Damnation).

I think just having Natural Order, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Dread Return (with Cabal Therapy preceding it), Smokestack and Armageddon, EE @4 and Humility on the list is enough to blow the whole "you'll never see a 4cc spell you care about" argument up.

The main thing is 4 is rare. It'd be foolish to say NOTHING costs 4, but it's much more important to stop 1 and 2. And then typically either 0 or 3 is more important than 4 is. You only get to keep three things on top of your library.

This, of course, is on top of all the other points I made.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

To add to this conversation, i wish i had a nickle everytime a blue player lost to an opposing blue player's Sower of Temptation.

[Aggro_zombies]

This new Jace would be so much more playable if he only cost three mana...

As it stands, control decks are basically the only decks in the format without a dedicated maindeck way to get rid of him; everything else has burn or else enough big creatures to crush him the turn after you play him. In the same CMC bracket, Elspeth and Ajani have the redeeming feature of being able to protect themselves by locking down threats or making blockers. New Jace has a battlefield life expectancy of negative zero if you drop him without something else to protect him, like a Moat or Humility, and even if you activate his +2 to be on the safe side you're often not gaining anything relevant by doing so (a fetch accomplishes much the same task and without requiring four mana to do so, double Suppression Field aside). The fateseal is almost always worse than the Scry simply because of the number of decks in the format that have library manipulation: all the blue decks have at least Brainstorm, and even Zoo can play Sylvan Library. It's unlikely that you'll seriously screw an opponent with the Fateseal part of the ability, but you are making a pretty big commitment by spending four mana and (likely) a turn to do so.

The Scry effect can be relevant, but Top is so much better it hurts. In addition to digging deeper and costing less, Top can be activated at instant speed and multiple times per turn if necessary. Sure, the scry is better if you have three non-fetch lands on top of your library, but (again) spending a full turn to get rid of just one of them seems really, really awful.

Repeatable Brainstorm is pretty clearly game-breaking, much more so than a repeatable "draw one" effect. However, old Jace and Top can emulate the Brainstorm effect pretty well, and sorcery speed, once-per-turn Brainstorms are actually a lot worse than the regular variety.

The unsummon effect is only relevant if you can unsummon a guy with an active Counterbalance on your side, or if you immediately follow with a Standstill or something (turn six!). In the former case, it's basically a permanent removal spell for -1, which is awesome. On the other hand, you have an active Counterbalance - why the fuck aren't you winning?!

The last ability is kind of like winning the game, except not, because you have to use the +2 five times to fire it off. I would think that spending four mana and five turns to Scry 5 would be the best way to lose the game, but I may be wrong on this one - reanimating Phage may be a better method. Regardless, even with old Jace, whose +2 actually got you somewhere, you'd only ever activate the ultimate against another control deck and only if you couldn't win through damage for whatever reason. The new +2 confers less benefit and takes longer to get to get to the ultimate, which itself has about as much impact on the game as old Jace's. Maybe it works in that Turbofog deck in Standard, but in Legacy I'll take a one-sided Armageddon or indestructible permanents over this any day.

There's also the fact that old Jace is much easier on a control deck's curve than new Jace. Yes, control decks need to think about their curves; the format is so fast and has so many tempo elements in it that bomb-heavy control decks will be dead before they can put any of their bombs to use. Four mana is the sweet spot for powerful control elements in this format: both Humility and Moat sit here, as do Wrath/Damnation and both playable four-mana planeswalkers already in the format. Three mana has traditionally been a bit of a hole for these types of decks - your options are Thirst for Knowledge, Intuition, Firespout, and...what? Old Jace would fit neatly into that slot and power you into your turn four bomb, and he had the upside of cutting a much lower profile against weaker opponents. Most people tend to play rather badly around planeswalkers, and old Jace looks a lot more innocent than he actually is in a control deck that can really capitalize on a steady stream of long-term card advantage. New Jace comes down with a gigantic target on his head regardless of the opponent ("Free Brainstorms, every turn? Oh shit!").

I'm really not sold on new Jace in this format. I though at first that he might be pretty good in a Supreme Blue-style Countertop build because he's essentially a free Top activation every turn and he can use Counterbalance to cover his ass, but the more I look at it the more it seems like, well, win-more. Dedicated control decks could run him, but he's fighting for space with a lot of cards that actually have an immediate impact on the board, whereas his older version isn't. Some sort of Stax deck could run him, but Stax is awful. What else is there that would want this guy?

[whiteshepherdman]

Well, in countertop the top does counter the first jace ability but think of this. If you stick jace, you can start screwing with them big time. Let's say it's your turn and they have 1 mana open and you have a swords for their 1 tarmogoyf and they have cb top online. You use the fateseal ability first, forcing them to activate top and then, you can swords the goyf after you've seen their top card.

[Aggro_zombies]

Well, in countertop the top does counter the first jace ability but think of this. If you stick jace, you can start screwing with them big time. Let's say it's your turn and they have 1 mana open and you have a swords for their 1 tarmogoyf and they have cb top online. You use the fateseal ability first, forcing them to activate top and then, you can swords the goyf after you've seen their top card.
And then he taps Top to draw a card and counter your Swords. You then lose the game for wasting turn five doing absolutely nothing while your opponent has a Tarmogoyf (that gets bigger when it kills Jace!).

Try again.

EDIT: To make this sound less troll-ish, think of it this way: your opponent has an active Counterbalance lock. The +2 does absolutely nothing to get you out of it because your opponent can activate Top in response to put the least essential card on top of his library. If he's only got one mana up, that can be an issue, but do you really think you're going to stick this guy against active Counterbalance lock? The other guy's blue.

Also, for your example: the optimal play in that scenario is to Swords in response to the Top activation, which then forces your opponent to choose between letting Swords resolve or losing Top to the +2. Most opponents will probably choose to lose Tarmogoyf because the active Top insures that they will find another threat in short order. In the meantime, they have all the mana in the world to make your Jace look shitty. Seriously, what are you going to do, +2 them every turn to get enough loyalty to just start bouncing whatever guy they Top up? That's terrible.

EDIT 2: Besides, I was talking about Jace in Counterbalance. The Scry there is relevant if you're trying to get the right combination of CMC's for Counterbalance, and the free Brainstorm lets you have a lot of control over what the top few cards of your library are (and the unsummon is more or less permanent for creatures with CMC 1 or 2).

[FoolofaTook]

The main thing is 4 is rare. It'd be foolish to say NOTHING costs 4, but it's much more important to stop 1 and 2. And then typically either 0 or 3 is more important than 4 is. You only get to keep three things on top of your library.

This, of course, is on top of all the other points I made.

When you run into a deck, like Landstill or Ultimate Walker or Stax, that is going to beat you by casting 4cc spells until you are out of counters, it really helps to have a 4cc to float on top of the deck.

That doesn't mean you'll always have it there and that doesn't mean that it alone is going to win you that game but it certainly helps to have it.

The card that I think Jace the Mind Sculptor is most in competition with is Sower of Temptation and against a lot of the meta you'd rather have Sower, so I'm not sure it just slides in as easily to a CounterTop deck as it seems it would. On the other hand Sower can be a weakness also, even against creature decks, given that it is so easy to remove and so the protection and swingyness that it provides is fragile.

[pi4meterftw]

I've never understood sower. For 0 mana more, you can play control magic and not attach the effect to a 2/2 body. The 2/2 body won't block for you for obvious reasons, and if you're control magicking a creature offensively, do you give a crap if you swing for 2 more? But you would definitely card if your opponent has any burn spell.

Anyway, as far as Jace goes, maybe I underestimated the worth of "choices" with top. So instead of thinking about that more I'll concede that point. But it doesn't matter because even the counterbalance decks face questions like:

Why not FOF, etc. (All the other stuff I posed.)

[keys]

I've never understood sower. For 0 mana more, you can play control magic and not attach the effect to a 2/2 body. The 2/2 body won't block for you for obvious reasons, and if you're control magicking a creature offensively, do you give a crap if you swing for 2 more? But you would definitely card if your opponent has any burn spell.


You can block with the charmed creature to trade with something else... and you still have a 2/2 flier.

[KillemallCFH]

I've never understood sower. For 0 mana more, you can play control magic and not attach the effect to a 2/2 body. The 2/2 body won't block for you for obvious reasons, and if you're control magicking a creature offensively, do you give a crap if you swing for 2 more? But you would definitely card if your opponent has any burn spell.The general line of thought is that, aside from the nice 2/2 flyer you get, spells that hit him can actually be countered (unlike Krosan Grip).

[DragoFireheart]

I'm going to nerco this thread since Jace has been popping up in Legacy decks with some success:

http://www.deckcheck.net/list.php?main=Jace%2C+the+Mind+Sculptor&sort=format


Now that we have had some time to test him, how has Jace been treating people? Is he worth blowing 60+ dollars on him or are there better cards worth investing in for control oriented decks?

He seems like a solid choice to fight reanimator decks with his bounce. If nothing else, you can always pitch him to FoW.

[Mark Sun]

I had a chance to get him while he was still $45. So I'm okay with it.

I played him in UWr Landstill for a while, but like I've mentioned before, his abilities are potent, I just can't tell if he's win-more in that build. That said, I dropped Landstill all together so I guess I'll never find out for myself unless someone writes a tournament report :tongue:

I'm looking to add him in as a 2-of in New Horizons; that whole nail-on-the-coffin thing seems good, as well as a way to apply more pressure and find a different way to win in case they force a crucial Relic/Crypt out against you.

[Edit] Basically, I'm saying that I agree he's good enough for Legacy, and deserves a spot in some builds.

[Genericcactus]

Jace is insanely powerful. If he manages to stick around for a few turns, he dominates the game by himself, allowing you to fateseal your opponent out of the match. The problem is, at 4 mana, what deck could really use him/want him? Landstill is the obvious answer, but it seems to be a dying archetype that I'm not sure even Jace can save. Also, would Landstill rather play an Elspeth or a Jace? Countertop is the other deck most likely to find room for Jace, but the spots in those decks are tight. I also can't really think of any matchups besides maybe Reanimator where I would rather have a Jace than a 10/10 Pro Everything.

In conclusion, Jace is definitely on the power level of the format, but I don't know if there exists a deck to best utilize his talents. Could he make MUC good?

[bowvamp]

Umm about that.. the 10/10 pro everything costs a creature. That's -1 card advantage for you sir (and +1 game win if it resolves). Completely different ideas. As much as I like jace's +2 and ultimate, he really shines with his 0 and -1. You get to brainstorm every time you play a fetch (if you even need to), and it only takes 1 loyalty to bounce creatures. That means that you gain back whatever tempo you may have lost playing him as soon as your opponent decides to play offensively (yeah, I know it won't be much of a surprise, but it's a nice little +). He also pitches to FoW if you draw multiples.

[Roman Candle]

As much as I like jace's +2 and ultimate, he really shines with his 0 and -1. You get to brainstorm every time you play a fetch (if you even need to), and it only takes 1 loyalty to bounce creatures.

Don't underestimate the +2 ability. I know I originally thought it was jank, but it can singlehandedly lock a player out of the game long enough to go ultimate.

[Genericcactus]

Umm about that.. the 10/10 pro everything costs a creature. That's -1 card advantage for you sir (and +1 game win if it resolves). Completely different ideas. As much as I like jace's +2 and ultimate, he really shines with his 0 and -1. You get to brainstorm every time you play a fetch (if you even need to), and it only takes 1 loyalty to bounce creatures. That means that you gain back whatever tempo you may have lost playing him as soon as your opponent decides to play offensively (yeah, I know it won't be much of a surprise, but it's a nice little +). He also pitches to FoW if you draw multiples.

If you are paying 4 mana for a spell, you want to win the game with it. Jace can definitely do this when it sticks, but not as consistently or in as many situations. If you are way behind, Progenitus digs you out of the hole, basically giving them one turn to race you. Jace doesn't have that impact. If you are behind it can be difficult devote resources just to keep Jace alive. Though brainstorming or bouncing a dude certainly helps, its not a guaranteed win in 2 turns.

Progenitus also gives you outs against some very tough matchups including Ichorid and Merfolk. Jace does nothing there.

[TheCramp]

this is interesting, from GP Madrid:

9th Place, Rafeal Del Riego
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendillion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory

Sideboard:
3 Firespout
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

[Genericcactus]

this is interesting, from GP Madrid:

9th Place, Rafeal Del Riego
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendillion Clique
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory

Sideboard:
3 Firespout
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
3 Spell Pierce
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

Frankly, that looks awful. What is the deck's game plan? Gain tempo with mana disruption and cheap counters and then...play 4 mana spells? This is like putting Jace is Canadian Threshold.

[whienot]

Actually, that deck has placed well in other tournies.

1st of 98 (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34428)

4th of 38 (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=34631)

I was wtf, too, but it looks to have some value to it.

[Anusien]

I'm pretty sure Jace is one of the most if not the most important card in blue control mirrors.

[TheCramp]

I saw it as a mash up of Canadian Threshold and Landstill, which seems like a fine hybrid to me.

[godryk]

Frankly, that looks awful. What is the deck's game plan? Gain tempo with mana disruption and cheap counters and then...play 4 mana spells? This is like putting Jace is Canadian Threshold.

That sounds very narrow-minded.

I know this kid and I've seen him play, and that deck is simply awesome. There has been a Canadian-Faeries archetype performing very strongly in Italy and Spain for months, and that list is the latest evolution of this archetype. This doesn't come out of nowhere. The deck kind of disappeared as the year started in favor of NO Bant decks, but it's still played in Madrid. On the other hand, its UBR cousin is very popular now as well, and has become a good home for Jace too.

The deck aims to choke the opponent and then win the game. I think that dropping a Jace is very similar to finishing your opponent's life with a Mongoose. Both things seal the game. It isn't very intuitive nor logic, you have to see it in action. If you have started a war of attrition, Jace is the new coming of Jesus. If you have managed to cut him off a color, Jace makes sure he doesn't get it while you give him a constant flow of cards of that particular color.

With all respect, there are archetypes not designed by The Source's big names and idols that happen to be strong and competitive. Of course, the guy was lucky, but you need luck to end 9th in a 2225 people tournament, don't you?

[xTrainx]

My friend likes to play Jace in his CounterTop Thopter deck, and I've seen him fateseal his way through two different matches.

It is definitely an incredibly powerful card.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm pretty sure Jace is one of the most if not the most important card in blue control mirrors.

It's a large help but Tops really make him lose his effectiveness of the + ability. Granted they need a beater to actually kill Jace, but Jace is pretty awful against things like Vendilion Clique, or any creature if you are out of counterspells.

That said, he is ridiculously good and has won over half of the games that I was able to drop him in. Granted I play decks that can capitalize on a swiss army knife of control, and he probably can't just be thrown in anything blue.

[Anusien]

Jace is pretty impossible to kill because he protects himself, and he has the ability to mess with their draws. If they don't have Top and you can start fatesealing them, you'll win pretty quickly because he +s and stops them from drawing answers.

[pi4meterftw]

It's a large help but Tops really make him lose his effectiveness of the + ability. Granted they need a beater to actually kill Jace, but Jace is pretty awful against things like Vendilion Clique, or any creature if you are out of counterspells.

That said, he is ridiculously good and has won over half of the games that I was able to drop him in. Granted I play decks that can capitalize on a swiss army knife of control, and he probably can't just be thrown in anything blue.

WOAH he has won OVER HALF? If you win even half your games, this statement merely asserts that when you get jace in play, you win more against control than when you don't play jace.

You don't consider this to be obvious?

[bowvamp]

Umm, ok...
@Pi4meterftw
I see no obvious contradictions in that post.
@Phoenix Ignition
"if you don't play counterspells" <- Teh problem.
Jace draws you into counter spells. That's what he's for. That and preventing the other part of your statement from happening (them answering him). It's also funny you mentioned clique, cause his ability is quite reminiscent of that very faerie.
@Anusien
Very true.
@Genericcactus
If merfolk counters your 4 mana sorcery speed, which one is advantageous? Jace. The other just lost you a green creature.
To play natural order doesn't actually mean they have 1 turn to race you, it means they have 2. Observe.
First turn:
They're at 20 sitting across the board from Progenitals.
Second turn:
Progenital Smash! They're at 10 and sitting across the board from tapped progenitals. Assuming that they've already swung once or twice, anything with combined power >= 7 will pretty much win them the game regardless. It's not like they stop playing creatures.

Let's see what jace does. He bounces their creatures, and requires them to attack him if they don't want to lose serious tempo. He also draws you a card making him a total of 0 CA vs -2 CA when he hits the board. Yeah, umm 2 extra spells and a jace on the board vs. a progenitus on the board. And that's assuming they don't just edict, moat, meekstone, or ensnaring bridge your progenitus. Yeah, I'd say jace is a better finisher, but as the lists show that's beside the point.

[Phoenix Ignition]

WOAH he has won OVER HALF? If you win even half your games, this statement merely asserts that when you get jace in play, you win more against control than when you don't play jace.

You don't consider this to be obvious?

Bad troll is bad?

I said I win over half the games where he hits play. This statement had no clarifications on what deck it was played against. Obviously against decks with many creatures, like zoo, he is nothing more than a bounce spell and plus about 5 life (not terrible, but also not that helpful for a mana cost that should win you the game). Against control decks he does much better. Unprotected and without any other control magic he's not that great, other times he wins games. My statement was in no way ambiguous, and you're being a dick.

Go outside for once.


Jace is pretty impossible to kill because he protects himself, and he has the ability to mess with their draws. If they don't have Top and you can start fatesealing them, you'll win pretty quickly because he +s and stops them from drawing answers.

Manlands really take care of Jace, which a lot of blue heavy control decks have, but I totally agree that Jace is almost impossible to kill (in fact I've won games before where the opponent keeps swinging at Jace for over 10 damage instead of at me, buying me enough time to restabilize).

[godryk]

I really love this card, a pity I can get it until it rotates out of Standard. When it was spoiled, I wasn't sure of its power, it didn't seem as tough as Elspeth, but having suffered it quite a lot, all I can say it's amazing in the right hands. It has a great sinergy with manadenial, as you can waste your opponent's Tundra, then bounce Rhox, and then choose whether to cut them off white or Brainstorm a couple of turns to sculpt your hand. For example, I've seen the GP Madrid kid testing against Zoo, keeping his opponent out of white mana and then, giving him a pile of Knights, Path to Exile's, and Helixes, and then going ultimate... againt Zoo! This sometimes happens. If your deck runs Brainstorm and/or Ponder, you can manipulate your draws while annoying your opponent, and then use +0 Jace abilty. After all that manipulation you end up scuplting a god hand.

I really like it in a UBr shell. It also combines well with Fire/Ice, as you can bounce Goyf, and tap it afterwards, drawing a card, gaining another turn for a free Brainstorm, seeing lots of cards in the process. The Ubr Shell also gives you Bitterblossom, which is insane with Jace. I've always seen it very powerfull in tempo-control hybrids, as you have lots of tools to help Jace survive a few turns, mess with your opponent a bit and getting a couple of free Braintorms. However, it's still strong in controllish archetypes (maybe stronger, IDK).

[pi4meterftw]

Bad troll is bad?

I said I win over half the games where he hits play. This statement had no clarifications on what deck it was played against. Obviously against decks with many creatures, like zoo, he is nothing more than a bounce spell and plus about 5 life (not terrible, but also not that helpful for a mana cost that should win you the game). Against control decks he does much better. Unprotected and without any other control magic he's not that great, other times he wins games. My statement was in no way ambiguous, and you're being a dick.

Go outside for once.



Manlands really take care of Jace, which a lot of blue heavy control decks have, but I totally agree that Jace is almost impossible to kill (in fact I've won games before where the opponent keeps swinging at Jace for over 10 damage instead of at me, buying me enough time to restabilize).

Your statement was obviously not ambiguous. It's clear what you're saying: you win >half your games when Jace hits play. But do you not regularly win at least half of your games whether or not Jace hits play? The fact that you're celebrating the winning of MORE THAN HALF!!!!!! surprises me. Like I don't think terribly highly of the way you played magic, from the times we've played and the comments you make, but I would bet that you're above average, for merely being a member of the source, and one who is not terrible. If my guess is right, then why do you bother to state that also when you play Jace, you continue to still win more than you lose?

It would be an interesting claim if you were like: 90% of the time I play Jace, I win. I definitely don't win 90% of the time, and it would be interesting and out of the ordinary for anybody to do so, under reasonably achievable conditions. But you only claimed to win more than half of your games, which is like: okay whatever. It's obvious to me that having a jace in play isn't going to make you lose MORE to control than not having one.

It's strange that you imply that I never go outside, given that you're the one constantly trolling the UWT thread pretending that we claimed to have flawless data or whatever the fuck you say. It's also strange that you try to make it sound as if the remedy to my "situation" is to go outside, implicitly to "have a life" when anybody who posts here makes a hobby out of manipulating cardboard rectangles.

[jrsthethird]

Your statement was obviously not ambiguous. It's clear what you're saying: you win >half your games when Jace hits play. But do you not regularly win at least half of your games whether or not Jace hits play? The fact that you're celebrating the winning of MORE THAN HALF!!!!!! surprises me. Like I don't think terribly highly of the way you played magic, from the times we've played and the comments you make, but I would bet that you're above average, for merely being a member of the source, and one who is not terrible. If my guess is right, then why do you bother to state that also when you play Jace, you continue to still win more than you lose?

It would be an interesting claim if you were like: 90% of the time I play Jace, I win. I definitely don't win 90% of the time, and it would be interesting and out of the ordinary for anybody to do so, under reasonably achievable conditions. But you only claimed to win more than half of your games, which is like: okay whatever. It's obvious to me that having a jace in play isn't going to make you lose MORE to control than not having one.

It's strange that you imply that I never go outside, given that you're the one constantly trolling the UWT thread pretending that we claimed to have flawless data or whatever the fuck you say. It's also strange that you try to make it sound as if the remedy to my "situation" is to go outside, implicitly to "have a life" when anybody who posts here makes a hobby out of manipulating cardboard rectangles.


http://www.biblelife.org/beef-porterhouse.jpg

[HAVE HEART]

Jace, the Mind Sculptor is awful. Nobody use him. Ever. Let him continue to warp Vintage, Extended, Standard and Block. Just keep him out of Legacy because he is obviously bad.

[Hanni]

Jace is at the same power level as Elspeth in Landstill, and once players realize this, Landstill may see a little more play. I've directly swapped my 2 DoJ's from my Landstill list for 2 Jace. DoJ is just extremely underpowered nowadays (similar to a comparison of Werebear to Tarmogoyf), and a 2/2 split of Elspeth/Jace will probably become the standard setup for most Landstill decks.

Other decks besides Landstill may be able to get some use out of him too, but I doubt they will get as much out of him as Landstill does.

[Shimi]

Since it was released i found a single slot in the SB of my CounterTop Decks, it can be really a bomb if you side it in in control matchs where both players run out of gas and start to fight with their topdecks threats.It is also a powerful weapon against decks that lock your creatures or pack alot of creature removal and few threats but if you want to inclued it in your SB or not is a metagame choice.

[DragoFireheart]

Alright, having now tested Jace, the Wallet Slayer myself, I am in love with him. He's easily one of the better control cards for a control deck and should easily find a home in such a deck like Landstill or such.

[Aggro_zombies]

Alright, having now tested Jace, the Wallet Slayer myself, I am in love with him. He's easily one of the better control cards for a control deck and should easily find a home in such a deck like Landstill or such.
He doesn't really solve any of Landstill's problems, though, so it's kind of irrelevant. Control decks in general are really bad right now.

I think he's a generally good sideboard card for most blue decks, particularly ones that have trouble with Lands. If you can play a creature or two to stave off Mishra's Factory, Jace can pretty easily ultimate the Lands player to death. Actually, the biggest obstacle is getting to four mana in the first place, but assuming you have he's quite the house.

[chokin]

He doesn't really solve any of Landstill's problems, though, so it's kind of irrelevant. Control decks in general are really bad right now.

I think he's a generally good sideboard card for most blue decks, particularly ones that have trouble with Lands. If you can play a creature or two to stave off Mishra's Factory, Jace can pretty easily ultimate the Lands player to death. Actually, the biggest obstacle is getting to four mana in the first place, but assuming you have he's quite the house.

This. Exactly.

Resolving cards that cost 4+ mana need to have a big effect on the game if you ask me. They kinda have to end the game or make you not lose the game with the speed of the format at the moment. Natural Order is a prime example to me. Dropping a Hungry Hungry Hydra on the field is a big deal.

Most spells are 3 mana or less to play in the standard DTB list and a lot of the Established section. ANT is kind of the exception, but it ramps into the bigger stuff to win the game.

[jrsthethird]

The card was a house in Lewis Laskin's UBGw Landstill deck from the Philly Open. I played against him and Jace just slaughtered me.

Here's the deck tech regarding his deck:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19459_Deck_Tech_Lewis_Laskins_New_Take_on_Landstill.html

[DragoFireheart]

Another necro.

Now that we have seen more wide-spread use of Jace in almost every format, why is it that some would have a 4 of? isn't the rule for Legendary cards to only have 2 of in the deck?

[Valtrix]

Because it's so good that people are going to fight over it a lot (counters, etc). As such, having the full 4 allows redundancy to get him in play, in addition to giving you a great chance that you'll see him again. It gives you more flexibility in pictching to force as well. Additionally, Jace serves as Jace removal, so it gives you more ways to deal with an opposing Jace.

Now personally, I think 4 is too many (at least if you have other wincons) because too many 4cc can make for some really awkward hands.

[god_campbell]

I think the main reseason to play more then 2 is so you can see them with regularity, and as removal for when an opponet drops one.

[Rico Suave]

Another necro.

Now that we have seen more wide-spread use of Jace in almost every format, why is it that some would have a 4 of? isn't the rule for Legendary cards to only have 2 of in the deck?

The rule for cards that win the game is to play 4 of them.

[Nidd]

The rule for cards that win the game is to play 4 of them.
Are you advising to play 4 IGG, 4 AdN and 4 ToA? ;)

[Bryant Cook]

The rule for cards that win the game is to play 4 of them.

I was thinking about playing relentless rats because you can play more than four.

[routlaw]

I run two in my Counterbalance deck and want another one. Even with the velocity of digging through the deck with top+predict, he still doesn't show up as much as I'd like. While it's true that Jace+any card is an awesome combo, what Jace and Counterbalance do in particular is downright disgusting, allowing for a pretty easy 1cmc/2cmc/3cmc stack on top of the deck via Jace's recurring Brainstorms.

Four might be a bit much, but I can totally see it in Landstill control decks that don't have the card filtering velocity of Top to abuse.

[Rico Suave]

Are you advising to play 4 IGG, 4 AdN and 4 ToA? ;)

I was trying to advise people not to make senseless comments, but clearly I have failed in this regard.

[Aggro_zombies]

Are you advising to play 4 IGG, 4 AdN and 4 ToA? ;)
I'm assuming from the smiley that you're being sarcastic. However, even so, your "counterexamples" are particularly bad.

All of them, except for Tendrils, have diminishing returns (in b4 jokes about that card) after you get the first one. Generally, casting an IGG once is sufficient to win the game on the same turn, and that also goes for AdN and Tendrils. AdN has the problem of being terrible in multiples, partially because you lose a lot of life when you cast one and partially because flipping a second when you cast the first one means -5 life for basically no gain. Tendrils is probably okay in multiples, but only because you want to maximize your chances of seeing one when you combo off. In most cases these days, that means having one main and one in the sideboard for Burning Wish. Adding more would require you to cut cards that get you to the Tendrils, which is poor.

Many of these arguments - diminishing returns, multiple dead copies, etc. - could be made for Jace, but there are key differences between Jace and spells:

1) Jace is a permanent and therefore your opponent can interact with it. Most opponents won't be in a position to interact with IGG, AdN, or Tendrils by the time you cast those spells.
2) Related to #1, Jace takes 4 turns to ultimate assuming you start ramping his loyalty immediately. This is not always the best call, which means he takes even longer to win - and therefore the opponent has even longer to get rid of him somehow. IGG, Tendrils, and AdN all (usually) win the turn you cast them, so you don't ever need to have access to more than one.
3) Jace gets rid of extra Jaces. You normally don't want to draw multiple copies of legendary permanents, but Jace's Brainstorm ability means he can cash in extra copies you draw for (hopefully) better cards.

If Jace didn't have the Brainstorm ability, he would a) be a lot worse, and b) be terrible as a 4-of.

[Hanni]

If Jace didn't have the Brainstorm ability, he would a) be a lot worse, and b) be terrible as a 4-of.

And c) be unplayable in Legacy.

[jrsthethird]

And d) be only $40.

[Aggro_zombies]

And d) be only $40.
Not even that. Jace is only playable in Constructed because of the Brainstorm ability. Everything else is just a bonus.

[Tacosnape]

Jace is a 4-of in Landstill. He will become such. He's the single strongest kill condition in the entire history of the control archetype. And to address some of the things mentioned (or overlooked) here,

1. Jace's Fateseal 1 is nuts on a board you've already got control of. Seriously nuts. If you think Jace the Mind Sculptor is underwhelming, you haven't realized how absolutely brutal this ability is. About 50% of the time I drop Jace I do nothing but Fateseal for 5 turns, then win.

2. The bounce, despite being the worst of the four abilities, can be good. He stops Iona if he's down first or if Iona is on a splash Color. He also stops Emrakul if Emrakul isn't hasted or timewalking, but as Emrakul decks are slowly evolving more towards one of these two conditions being true, this is less amazing.

3. The Brainstorm ability lets you dig for answers to strange problems (an imminent comboing off, a problematic enchantment or artifact, defense against opposing Jaces in a mirror), or answers for threats that would interrupt Jace's Fateseal-Kill schtick.

4. Excess Jaces can be brainstormed back into your library or aggressively pitched to Force of Will. Excess Jaces let you stick one should you run across a double burn blitz, a Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse, or a counterwar. You have to be careful of Oblivion Rings, though.

5. Jace's ultimate is brutal. If it goes off, there's almost no way your opponent lives ever. I've never lost if I get it off.

[Valtrix]

1. Jace's Fateseal 1 is nuts on a board you've already got control of. Seriously nuts. If you think Jace the Mind Sculptor is underwhelming, you haven't realized how absolutely brutal this ability is. About 50% of the time I drop Jace I do nothing but Fateseal for 5 turns, then win..

This. When I first started playing Jace I was surprised how much I was using his first ability, to the point where I almost used non of his other abilities. Fatesealing works well because your deck should be built to deal with the opponent's already, so when you get to make them get rid of cards that you don't actually want them to see at that point you generate a huge advantage. I love that it puts them on a quick clock, while at the same time being disruptive (which is one of the reasons why I think Jace is far superior to Elspeth, since all she does is take down life totals to win).

[keys]

Just compare Jace to Precognition, which was a decent card back in its day. I suspect he's here to stay for a long time.

[majikal]

Whenever I build a blue deck for Legacy, my lists usually start like this these days:

4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
2x Jace, TMS at least

The one notable exception is Merfolk, and even then I would be open to testing him in there, as the deck could probably use the utility.

[Tacosnape]

I don't know about in Merfolk, though I wouldn't bet against it. But to me, any and all Planeswalkers thrive in control decks, as they're at their absolute best on creatureless boards. This is why my Landstill decks tend to err high on the side of creature removal. I don't like to have to spend my first Jace move bouncing something. A Jace dropped on an empty board is a very very dangerous threat.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I've already said this, and I'm sure someone else already has too, but Jace is like the blue Tarmogoyf. It's getting to the point where any deck that can support him is throwing him in. Also I find his Brainstorm ability to actually be the weakest. Bouncing a creature every turn is very strong. Especially if that creature is something like Emrakul or the Tarmogoyf they were planning on blocking your Goyf with, as is so often the case. The ultimate is just win, especially combined with being able to bounce creatures or Brainstorm for free and fateseal locks the game. It's interesting that Emrakul and Jace both saw so much play at the same tournament. Since Jace owns softcasted Emrakul it seems like something is going to have to give, or will cheating/Emrakul racing Control+Jace be a new format dynamic.

[Shugyosha]

I don't know about in Merfolk, though I wouldn't bet against it. But to me, any and all Planeswalkers thrive in control decks, as they're at their absolute best on creatureless boards. This is why my Landstill decks tend to err high on the side of creature removal. I don't like to have to spend my first Jace move bouncing something. A Jace dropped on an empty board is a very very dangerous threat.

Still, bouncing a big threat over and over is an effect Merfolk would like to have very much. Even for 4 mana I would call this tempo. Being an alternate win condition is a bonus against decks boarding Engineered Plague or have access to Firespout. The problem is that Merfolk decks have no space for Jace and the Brainstorm ability needs fetches to be broken.

[GrooGrux]

Personally, I like to brainstorm my way to strong hand. And then fate seal away. However, don't forget that you can fate seal yourself. This can be a very powerful move when you know you DON'T want that top card.

[SageOwl]

Personally, I like to brainstorm my way to strong hand. And then fate seal away. However, don't forget that you can fate seal yourself. This can be a very powerful move when you know you DON'T want that top card.

Step 1: Brainstorm, put a card you don't want second from the top.
Step 2: Next turn draw, Fateseal bad card away
Step 3: Profit

Techy stuff like that is cool but as someone who doesn't have, and never will have Jace's the play I hate the most is:

Play Jace:
Fate Seal me
Fate Seal me
....
Fate Seal me
Win

[xTrainx]

Jace really does seem to becoming the 'blue Tarmogoyf', although he isn't quite as splashable as 'Goyf. Decks(coughMerfolkcough), would splash green solely for the purpose of having Tarmogoyf; and that is harder to do with the double U requirement. The other thing is that he hits play on turn four. With combo not necessarily being hosed; but definitely losing a powerful presence in the meta(due to the lack of skilled pilots), it becomes less of an issue, but decks like Merfolk, Zoo, and Goblins can prey on the deck that is slightly slower.

Either way; Jace is an incredible card, and his value shouldn't dip much at all once he leaves Standard. Too bad; now I'll have to work for it.

[Deady]

The problem with Jace is that he requires 4 mana and double U, which means he's only really worth it in blue based control decks (Supreme Blue Countertop being the best option here).

Playing Jace in aggro/tempo based builds seems like a mistake too.

[death]

isn't the rule for Legendary cards to only have 2 of in the deck?

I don't know if that rule exists but I personally like breaking previously set forth rules. Jace is no doubt a strong card just as speculated and he continues to dominate boards. Landstill decks were redesigned to fit 3-4 while Supreme Blue play with 2-3 due to curve restriction. It actually depends on which deck we want to talk about. I play with the magic number 3 since I pack enough removal spells to handle armies and enough permission spells to win counter wars. I first answer all threats my opponents throw at me before I drop a bomb on my own.


A Jace dropped on an empty board is a very very dangerous threat.


Now that we have seen more wide-spread use of Jace in almost every format, why is it that some would have a 4 of?

A fourth Jace just clogs my hand. But ultimately it is you who have to decide wahtever suits your fancy. Don't let the hive mentality creep on you.

[freakish777]

Playing Jace in aggro/tempo based builds seems like a mistake too.


Wrong.

Rushing River, aside from being able to put Humility/Moat back into a landstill player's hand is obsoleted by Jace in Tempo decks (and guess what Jace does against Humility/Moat instead? Kills your opponent instead of buying you 1 extra turn of beats).

Do you and your opponent have Goyfs stairing at each other and you just drew and resolved Jace? Guess who's winning that one? You.

Did you open up your hand of Wasteland, Stifle, Island, fetch, Jace, and some other cards on the play? If your opponent plays non-basics, you time walking them into Jace is far stronger than time walking them and then dropping Goyf. Goyf still dies to 1 white mana instants. Jace, upon resolution goes to 5 counters and puts the game out of reach for your opponent.

Check out the Next Level Tempo deck. Jace is an absolute beast in that deck, and gives you an actual end game against control decks (you get to bait them into using counter magic on your Cliques and Goyfs (when they didn't draw Swords) or your Crucible and Stifles (to protect their mana) and then drop the bomb on them. Then they go "Oh..." and realize their deck's only answer to Jace is their own Jace (or maybe something like Vindicate), which you'll be sending to the bottom of their Library with Fateseal unless they get lucky, and even then they likely have to win a counter war.

For real. In my tournament report, check out game 1 of round 7 against Wafo-Tapa. Jace was the nut high in a Tempo Deck against a control deck.

Good against control? Check (except when your opponent has resolved SDT first).
Good against aggro? Check (assuming you've cleared their board).
Good against combo? Eh, not so much (but he does Brainstorm you into relevant spells in game 1 if you drop him).
Good in the tempo mirror? Absolutely (tarmogoyf tarmogoyf go away, come again some other day, my tarmogoyf here to stay, to beat your face to your dismay).

[zalachan]

I recently got myself one Jace (gave away all the odissey madness stuff, pretty good for me:) and put it into NH shell (-2 Ponder, +1 Jace, +1 Elspeth) and i must say that i loved all the games i got any of them into play. Mana denial into Knight into any PW (or both) is so much win. I really like the fateseal and unsummon, kinda like brainstorm too (oh really..). This card is like swiss army knife, really suits any deck and almost any board position.

[ddt15]

Too good imo. Then again so is Tarmogay.

[Frid]

I never would play jace out of countertop or landstill. Although it may seem an universally good card, there are many blue decks that simply can't abuse him, and they make it mediocre. Using it in tempo-style decks or any aggresive-based strategy is like using a cannon to kill a fly. Too much power and hard to abuse for such a simple gameplan.
If you definetly want to run planeswalkers in those decks, which I personally wouldn't at all, elspeth would do it much better.

[Tammit67]

I never would play jace out of countertop or landstill. Although it may seem an universally good card, there are many blue decks that simply can't abuse him, and they make it mediocre. Using it in tempo-style decks or any aggresive-based strategy is like using a cannon to kill a fly. Too much power and hard to abuse for such a simple gameplan.
If you definetly want to run planeswalkers in those decks, which I personally wouldn't at all, elspeth would do it much better.

In an aggro deck, sure, I can see Elspeth being better. But Jace is nothing if not tempo. Downplaying the opponents draws, removing threats for a turn, bringing more (i suspect tempo oriented) to your hand, and outright killing if need be. His manacost is the only deterant

[FoolofaTook]

JtMS is absolutely ridiculous in CounterTop, Landstill, Ultimate Walker, Thopters, basically any blue-centric deck that has casting 4-bombs or getting up 4+ mana as part of the game plan. He's going to be a 3-of and 4-of, because unlike Elspeth he pitches to Force of Will. He finds you other locking/defensive pieces and he finds combos.

The question is whether he's good enough that you'll see more aggro-controllish lists try to fit him in also.

[The Big Ragu]

Regular Jace is already a card draw engine for one less mana with a kill condition attached, and it's not used. You're never, ever going to get this up to twelve counters in anything but a hardlock position, so effectively you're paying four mana for a Brainstorm on a stick that died to Lightning Bolt.

Regular Jace is barely playable in Legacy and certainly better than this.


I vehemently disagree with all of this. Jace: TMS is a timeless Legacy all star.

[Taldier]

I vehemently disagree with all of this. Jace: TMS is a timeless Legacy all star.

You've successfully proven that you have more information than someone 4 years in the past.

[MGB]

You've successfully proven that you have more information than someone 4 years in the past.

What this also proves is that IBA is a needlessly contrarian / pessimistic judge of Magic (and probably of life in general).

Anything IBA says about future spoiled cards has to be taken with an extremely large grain of salt because, despite evidence of extreme brokenness, he will simply disagree with popular sentiment regardless.

[Richard Cheese]

What this also proves is that IBA is a needlessly contrarian / pessimistic judge of Magic (and probably of life in general).

Anything IBA says about future spoiled cards has to be taken with an extremely large grain of salt because, despite evidence of extreme brokenness, he will simply disagree with popular sentiment regardless.

You're just now reaching this conclusion?

[twndomn]

I vehemently disagree with all of this. Jace: TMS is a timeless Legacy all star.

Why did you necro a thread 3~4 years ago? Isn't that a crime? Why are people going along with this guy?

[Star|Scream]

What this also proves is that IBA is a needlessly contrarian / pessimistic judge of Magic (and probably of life in general).

Anything IBA says about future spoiled cards has to be taken with an extremely large grain of salt because, despite evidence of extreme brokenness, he will simply disagree with popular sentiment regardless.

This is also proves that The Big Ragu's reading comprehension skills are sketchy at best.

[Adryan]

Reading the first pages of this thread was a lot of fun. Thank you for giving new life to the thread :D ^^


I think we can say that there will never be a better PW than Jace the Mindsculptor. He can do everything, protect himself, act as an Card Advantage Engine and Wincon.

[Arsenal]

I agree, reading through the thread is pretty funny. All of the negative comments about Jace's +2 is just superlulz.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What this also proves is that IBA is a needlessly contrarian / pessimistic judge of Magic (and probably of life in general).

Anything IBA says about future spoiled cards has to be taken with an extremely large grain of salt because, despite evidence of extreme brokenness, he will simply disagree with popular sentiment regardless.

I've barely been posting the past several years, it seems odd that you would have this axe to grind.

I severely underestimated JtMS and Batterskull when they were printed, are probably the two that stick out most to me in terms of bad calls. Not coincidentally these were also both around the time I was starting to play Magic less and thus keep up less with metagame developments. I also continuously under-estimated planeswalkers for several years after they were first printed.

Cards I correctly called as bullshit or being overrated when everyone was screaming themselves hoarse about them include shit like Hunted Horror, Lotus Cobra, Pithing Needle, Snapcaster Mage, Jace 4.0, Land Tax when it was taken off the list.

Cards I correctly called when they were being dismissed or severely underrated include Jitte, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, and Flash when it was un-errata'd. Nykthos.

Cards I thought would be awesome but weren't include Shadow of Doubt, Bound/Determined, Phyrexian Crusader.

This isn't comprehensive of course. At any rate, I've never in my history posting on this site suggest that people should listen to my judgments because I'm the one making them. I make arguments and people are free to accept them as compelling or not. I've certainly never suggested I have a perfect track record.

You seem to have a history of posting mostly in shitty deck threads- MUC, The Gate, Green Chalice Aggro, Turbo Eldrazi- so tell me, what shitty deck or idea of yours did I tear apart that you got so butthurt about?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

You've successfully proven that you have more information than someone 4 years in the past.

To some people, it's the little victories that are important.

[lavafrogg]

You seem to have a history of posting mostly in shitty deck threads- MUC, The Gate, Green Chalice Aggro, Turbo Eldrazi- so tell me, what shitty deck or idea of yours did I tear apart that you got so butthurt about?

This guy is made of win.

[luckme10]

For every JTMS, there's one of these:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13474-NCD-Lorescale-Coatl/page10

Also, fuck temporal mastery.

[Quasim0ff]

What this also proves is that IBA is a needlessly contrarian / pessimistic judge of Magic (and probably of life in general).

Anything IBA says about future spoiled cards has to be taken with an extremely large grain of salt because, despite evidence of extreme brokenness, he will simply disagree with popular sentiment regardless.

I don't think you were around, when jace was spoiled. Jace was 25$ dollars, presale, because EVERYONE - including SCG pro's and CFB - didn't think Jace was anything awesome. He wasn't alone in under evaluating Jace. The best of us makes mistakes.

[Asthereal]

Deathrite Shaman was €4 in presale because everyone was underestimating it.
The impact of a card is often very hard to predict, and we all misjudge new cards.

Reading about a comment made in ancient history and burning it with current knowledge seems really stupid.
Judging someone's character and intelligence on a comment he made in ancient history also seems really stupid.

(And yes, four years ago is ancient history in MtG terms. Misty Rainforest has become 8x more expensive since then.)

[Stan]

I've barely been posting the past several years, it seems odd that you would have this axe to grind.

I severely underestimated JtMS and Batterskull when they were printed, are probably the two that stick out most to me in terms of bad calls. Not coincidentally these were also both around the time I was starting to play Magic less and thus keep up less with metagame developments. I also continuously under-estimated planeswalkers for several years after they were first printed.

Cards I correctly called as bullshit or being overrated when everyone was screaming themselves hoarse about them include shit like Hunted Horror, Lotus Cobra, Pithing Needle, Snapcaster Mage, Jace 4.0, Land Tax when it was taken off the list.

Cards I correctly called when they were being dismissed or severely underrated include Jitte, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, and Flash when it was un-errata'd. Nykthos.

Cards I thought would be awesome but weren't include Shadow of Doubt, Bound/Determined, Phyrexian Crusader.

This isn't comprehensive of course. At any rate, I've never in my history posting on this site suggest that people should listen to my judgments because I'm the one making them. I make arguments and people are free to accept them as compelling or not. I've certainly never suggested I have a perfect track record.

You seem to have a history of posting mostly in shitty deck threads- MUC, The Gate, Green Chalice Aggro, Turbo Eldrazi- so tell me, what shitty deck or idea of yours did I tear apart that you got so butthurt about?

Your list of 'overestimated cards' isn't really fair. SCM has certainly proven itself, and Pithing Needle is a cheap, universal answer that sees play in every format it's legal in, including Vintage. Of course a needle won't win a game on its own, but it is a very efficient answer to a whole lot of different threats. That's what it was designed for, and that's what it does. You can't demand of a workhorse that it will win the Kentucky Derby for you.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Well, that's why I phrased it the way I did. It's worth remembering that everyone thought Pithing Needle, for instance, when it came out, was going to be a maindeck powerhouse. Of course a lot of people probably weren't around when people were knocking themselves out over that.

Doesn't mean Pithing Needle's not a fine sideboard card, I throw in sideboards fairly regularly, but it's nowhere near as good as some people convinced themselves it would be.

An even better example along similar lines would be Exterminate.

And it's also worth remembering, and easier to remember due to temporal proximity, that people all but neglected Delver for the first month or two in favor of holding up Snapcaster Mage as the new blue all star and blue's equivalent to Tarmogoyf. I crunched the numbers for other reasons and an absurd 25 or 30% of decks in SCG Open Top 16s over this period had Snapcaster Mage, something like three times as much presence as Delver. I did the numbers to talk about Brainstorm, but I also pointed out at that time that Delver was the real blue powerhouse from Innistrad based on the data.

Also, yes, ffs Coatl. Or Temporal Mastery. My asshole brother picked us up like two sets of Temporal Mastery. I knew that the card was likely shit and at best very very far from busted, for one simple reason- I played with Time Walk all the time in Cube, and it's often just a glorified Explore. One you have to jump through hoops for seemed obviously not that great to me, and combo decks wouldn't want to reset storm count. Now they're collecting dust. Fuck.

Prognostication is a hit or miss game. A new set changes lots of things, and even if you had a perfect knowledge of how a format "should" develop that doesn't necessarily reflect what people will play, and therefore what's good against the meta in practice. Magic is too complex to solve. I don't know of anyone who gets all their predictions right and I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to do anything except listen to others' arguments for why a card seems like it will or won't be good, and then weigh the strength of those arguments.


One factor in play in this thread for instance is that I thought Jace was too slow for Legacy. At the time, before the banning of Mystical Tutor, the format seemed like it was getting constantly faster and faster. Zoo, ANT, and Reanimator were among the top decks. Since then the format has become much durdlier.

Another factor was that I underestimated how good the +2 was. I mean I still think people over-value it, I see people rush to use Jace as a kill condition all the time, and leave control of the game up in the air, when they should first race ahead on card advantage and ensure that they can't lose. But perpetual fatesealing is better than I figured, which I think is understandable since it was basically a new mechanic. One of my biggest concerns was that you would have to spend too long doing what I thought was basically nothing before you could activate the kill.

You can be wrong about whether a card is good enough or not for understandable reasons, or right for the wrong reasons. I'm reminded of people, names left unmentioned, that brag about their support of a deck long before the cards that actually make it competitive were printed. Next set maybe the cards to finally break Nourishing Lich get printed, that doesn't make Cavius John the Baptist.

[MGB]

I don't think you were around, when jace was spoiled. Jace was 25$ dollars, presale, because EVERYONE - including SCG pro's and CFB - didn't think Jace was anything awesome. He wasn't alone in under evaluating Jace. The best of us makes mistakes.

Except that on the first few pages of this thread you will find evidence to the contrary. Bardo, Nightmare, Nihil_Credo, Tao, aggro_zombies and others were very bullish on Jace (or at the very least intrigued by the control potential of his main abilities) and for reasons that mirrored what Jace's role would become.

There is something wrong with your fundamental card-evaluation skills if you discount something as obviously powerful as a repeatable Brainstorm effect packaged not only with creature control but a WIN condition.

Now I am not implying that I expect someone to immediately identify a card as the future format cornerstone that it will become, but to dismiss and even disparage a card with obviously powerful effects speaks to a greater deficiency in card evaluation OR needless pessimism / contrarianism OR both.

[Tammit67]

Except that on the first few pages of this thread you will find evidence to the contrary. Bardo, Nightmare, Nihil_Credo, Tao, aggro_zombies and others were very bullish on Jace (or at the very least intrigued by the control potential of his main abilities) and for reasons that mirrored what Jace's role would become.

There is something wrong with your fundamental card-evaluation skills if you discount something as obviously powerful as a repeatable Brainstorm effect packaged not only with creature control but a WIN condition.

Now I am not implying that I expect someone to immediately identify a card as the future format cornerstone that it will become, but to dismiss and even disparage a card with obviously powerful effects speaks to a greater deficiency in card evaluation OR needless pessimism / contrarianism OR both.

Hindsight is 20/20, what's your point?


There are plenty of cards with incredibly strong interactions that virtually 0 play for meta reasons. You can't just look at those opinions out of context and critique them. You'll need to know what competent decks were like back then and a 4 mana incremental advantage engine was worth including.

[MGB]

Hindsight is 20/20, what's your point?


There are plenty of cards with incredibly strong interactions that virtually 0 play for meta reasons. You can't just look at those opinions out of context and critique them. You'll need to know what competent decks were like back then and a 4 mana incremental advantage engine was worth including.

I'm fine with discussing the pros and cons of the brainstorm and unsummon effects in the context of a control deck but to dismiss and disparage clearly Legacy playable effects is just daft. Especially when only a minority of posters and players were negative about the card when it was spoiled! Look at the first few pages.

[Megadeus]

I have definitely called cards playable that ended up seeing no play. I don't think I have ever seen a card as powerful as jace and said it would never be played, but like has been said, hindsight is 20/20. I mean yes, IBA was a bit over the top with his vehement disagreement about the power of jace, but to be fair, the format was pretty quick back then.

[Tammit67]

I'm fine with discussing the pros and cons of the brainstorm and unsummon effects in the context of a control deck but to dismiss and disparage clearly Legacy playable effects is just daft. Especially when only a minority of posters and players were negative about the card when it was spoiled! Look at the first few pages.

What exactly are you hoping to get out of any of this?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm fine with discussing the pros and cons of the brainstorm and unsummon effects in the context of a control deck but to dismiss and disparage clearly Legacy playable effects is just daft. Especially when only a minority of posters and players were negative about the card when it was spoiled! Look at the first few pages.

Okay.


This. Four mana restricts him pretty much to control, but he's arguably much better than Jace #1 there if there's not too much already in the four-drop slot.


I wish the +2 ability was more relevant. If it could protect itself at a net gain in loyalty counters, then I'd really love it. Even if we could just use its bounce ability as an instant, I'd be pleased.

...

I think it won't make much of a splash, but it could see some play.


Costing 4 is a bitch, and potentially dying to Lightning Bolt or Nacatl or Qasali swing or Goyf if you Brainstorm immediately is just rough. But it's so gamebreaking in the control mirror that I can't imagine it won't see play, at least in sideboards.

There's absolutely no reason to SCD this. It won't see play outside of Landstill or other control shells, so just discuss it there.


This guy probably slots better into Supreme Blue than any other variations on Counter-Top


But honestly when the hype wears down, I don't see this as being played anywhere outside of Landstill as a 1-of, and just to beat the mirror (with applications elsewhere, yes, but you wouldn't play it if there weren't any other control players in your meta).

Then I come in and grump up the thread and encounter such stirring defenses as:


lolol @ bearassasin... I agree with you, but you sound a bit angry in your post.. I wouldn't play him as more than a 1 of in landstill but in walkerstill/ultimate walker,


I don't have a full hard-on for the card, but I'm quite more optimistic than IBA...

The win condition, yeah, they could have omitted it for little loss of value (at least in Legacy). The +2, however, isn't quite as bad as it looks, it's got a solid chance of generating almost-card advantage, particularly after a Brainstorm. It will usually be better than old Jace's.



At first I was overly excited about this card. After considering the pros and cons I can't stay excited over him. The type of decks that need him, actually need to affect the board (like Elspeth). Elspeth is really good because she protects herself both by adding counters and creating a dork to chump (this makes her +5 and can block 1 attacker). This Jace let's you scry to add counters and get it out of bolt range. With countertop protection it could be great but hey so could dreadnought for winning the game


The new Jace is cool, but I'm unsure it will see play in Legacy.


Well, i think this guy is nice but I'm pretty sure i won't have to buy some. At 4cc cards have to be real bombs to be played and since this guy cannot protect himself, dies to Bolt and cannot win the game alone he's not gonna be played much.


New Jace is just a hair overcosted. There's very little wrong with a Brainstorm on a stick that gets two Unsummons. Which this is. His first and last abilities are irrelevant unless, like the old Jace, he's suddenly become your only kill condition.


Call me glass half empty, but he won't see play!

Just a quick run down on 4cc cards in the format: Humility, Elspeth, Wraths, Gifts, Fact, Natural Order, Swans of Bryn Argoll, Rafiq, Garruk, Ajanis...
and a lot of those don't see any play. A card has to be REALLY powerful to make the cut if its CC is over three.

But hey, there were some people that were super bullish, right?


Jace the Mind Sculptor is broken because it's inherently unfair. I don't know whether Jace decks -- or specifically the decks in my article -- will end up dominating the format long-term. But I can say, after testing, that they are broken, as I understand and use that term. They are unfair and unfun to play against.


Let's see how widespread this card ends up being, then nuke it from orbit if it's as good as y'all say it is; along with some other blue cards just for funsies.


Im not sure if this card is all that broken, but it does demand actions taken against it... However, I'm afraid it might warp the format while Legacy is pretty good and healthy right now


This is my biggest beef with the card, and frankly the Brainstorm mechanic. It does not stoke innovation or creativity. At best it gets the format meandering in a direction around the card. At worst, it totally stifles diversity. The decks that can use the card best already exist.

Stephen, I fully expected to see this article from you. Now that you have signed off on its brokenness, I consider it mostly a done deal.


I don't know why people online all seem to believe Legacy games only last 3-4 turns. 2 "fair" decks usually have games that last many more turns...

It is a stupid, stupid card that only makes the current top blue decks better.

What I'd like to do is come up with tools to combat this until it (may?) gets banned.



The main thing I took from the Legacy portion of this article was not the exact decklists for the Jace shells, but the illustrative examples of why Jace is actually ridiculous in Legacy. I'm not as sold on the applications as much in Vintage, but like Stephen, I also think it will be broken in Legacy. These lists and discussion are just a starting point. If people are doing their due dilligence Jace will be in multiple decks in the next Legacy GP Top 8.


One need not agree with my ultimate conclusions that Jace, the Mind Sculptor is broken to concur in my judgment that he does not suffer from the limitations ascribed to him by his harsher critics. And, if I were to aspire more as a persuasive writer, I would just ask that the reader also agree that I've demonstrated that Jace functions and synergizes well in these lists. I assure you Jace is not a win more card. It's winning games.


This is the truth. I hope they will take this way, like they did back in the time with Memory Jar and Mind's Desire...

And the shit thing - some players will start to preorder this card at 25 - 30 -40 $ for a single copy. Keep in mind it's a mythic rare. It's not uncommon Misstep, so no one care if they ban it.

So dear Wizzards - do not let this card stay legal in Legacy even for 1 week.


Pretty much what the poster above me said. I'd hate to choose between spending 150 Euros to play in a warped format or play something suboptimal or don't play at all.


I was really hoping to win without being REQUIRED to play blue.

A broader argument: i cite their precious explanations about format diversity and using bannings when a format effectively homogenizes.


Wait, no, I lied; those are all about Temporal Mastery.

tl;dr:

FUCK OFF

[EpicLevelCommoner]

This Winter
The Source Presents
A 20/20 Hindsight Production

T A R M O G O Y F _ I I
Rise of the Mind Sculptor

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Speaking of, here's the Future Sight Speculation thread, try to spot all four posts talking about Tarmogoyf (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5377-Future-Sight-Cards).

One thing that it's always worth keeping in mind is just how many very, very powerful cards see basically no play in Legacy despite being legal. For someone that had seen their dominance in other formats, it might seem strange that cards that don't really get played would include;

Goblin Welder
Metalworker
Gifts Ungiven
Isochron Scepter
Thopter Foundry combo
Cursed Scroll
Land Tax + Scroll Rack
Armageddon
Stasis
Wild Nacatl
Arcbound Ravager and almost all the cards from T2 Affinity for that matter
Recurring Nightmare
Primeval Titan
Cloudpost

And that's nowhere near the bottom of it. Seeing how an entire metagame will work together in the future is almost impossible, which is why Wizards, who are paid to do this shit, still print retarded crap like TNN and Delver of Secrets.

It's also worth keeping in mind that a lot of what's good or not depends most of all on what deck it goes into. Which also depends who's working on what. Top decks don't come out of the aether. When Ian MacInnes, the Hatfields, and others in Nova started working on Thresh people freaked out over using cards like Daze, Nimble Mongoose, Portent before Ponder was printed. For a while the deck was maindecking Meddling Mages. For a deck to be good, really good, you need people working on it consistently, both the list and the sideboard, and also just lines of play. As much as we can and probably should make fun of Finn for playing white weenie for years before cards were printed to actually make it viable, without that work Thalia would probably have seen a lot less play than she does. Maybe if more people were as interested in relentless pushing the archetype there'd be a similar breakthrough for like, Recurring Nightmare-Birthing Pod, or a Legacy Twelvepost deck, or whatever.

With Jace, for instance, the card saw 3 top 8s at Legacy Opens for the first six months it was legal; 14 total for the first year. It didn't really explode until it had already been legal a full year and Caw Blade became the top Standard deck, pushing people to try the card more in Legacy; in 2011 it had 88 top 8s.

So, again, unless you have some basis for offering yourself up as a better diviner of the future metagame, really just fuck off.

[MGB]

Speaking of, here's the Future Sight Speculation thread, try to spot all four posts talking about Tarmogoyf (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5377-Future-Sight-Cards).

One thing that it's always worth keeping in mind is just how many very, very powerful cards see basically no play in Legacy despite being legal. For someone that had seen their dominance in other formats, it might seem strange that cards that don't really get played would include;

Goblin Welder
Metalworker
Gifts Ungiven
Isochron Scepter
Thopter Foundry combo
Cursed Scroll
Land Tax + Scroll Rack
Armageddon
Stasis
Wild Nacatl
Arcbound Ravager and almost all the cards from T2 Affinity for that matter
Recurring Nightmare
Primeval Titan
Cloudpost


Metalworker: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-%28Metalworker%29

Thopter Foundry: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16836-Deck-CounterTop-Thopter

Armageddon: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6044-Deck-Armageddon-Stax

Wild Nacatl: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20129-Deck-Blue-Zoo

Arcbound Ravager: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12604-Deck-Affinity

Primeval Titan and Cloudpost: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24848-Deck-Turbo-Eldrazi


Just sayin'.

I agree with the rest of your post, but to characterize some of these powerful cards as seeing "basically no play" is a bit disingenuous. Powerful cards are always playable and will see some play, even if it's just fringe play in a hostile metagame.

Like, when evaluating Wild Nacatl, for example, 3/3 for G is simply powerful even if the metagame is hostile to the Zoo strategy. Evaluating Cloudpost - gobs of mana are powerful even in a format with Wasteland. Evaluate the positives, not the negatives. What can the card *do*, and not how it fails. A 2UU creature bounce, draw engine, and win condition wrapped up into one is powerful even in a fast metagame with combo and aggro. All it takes is better counters / sweepers to make this finisher a dominant control strategy cornerstone.

Being able to spot powerful potential in a card even if the metagame is currently hostile to aspects of that powerful card is what allows a player to make educated intuitions about popular future strategies.

[kiblast]

Links...

Just sayin'.

I agree with the rest of your post, but to characterize some of these powerful cards as seeing "basically no play" is a bit disingenuous. [/b]

Most of the cards listed by IBA don't see play, as most of the decks you linked as proof that those cards are played, are non existent in current legacy.
Thopters is not played anymore since Miracles were printed.
Blue Zoo is a sub par threshold, not played by anyone. Ok maybe 3 people in US.
Cloudpost is regularly played by maybe 3 players all over the world.
Armageddon Stax…srsly

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Speaking of, here's the Future Sight Speculation thread, try to spot all four posts talking about Tarmogoyf (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?5377-Future-Sight-Cards).

One thing that it's always worth keeping in mind is just how many very, very powerful cards see basically no play in Legacy despite being legal. For someone that had seen their dominance in other formats, it might seem strange that cards that don't really get played would include;

Goblin Welder
Metalworker
Gifts Ungiven
Isochron Scepter
Thopter Foundry combo
Cursed Scroll
Land Tax + Scroll Rack
Armageddon
Stasis
Wild Nacatl
Arcbound Ravager and almost all the cards from T2 Affinity for that matter
Recurring Nightmare
Primeval Titan
Cloudpost

And that's nowhere near the bottom of it. Seeing how an entire metagame will work together in the future is almost impossible, which is why Wizards, who are paid to do this shit, still print retarded crap like TNN and Delver of Secrets.

It's also worth keeping in mind that a lot of what's good or not depends most of all on what deck it goes into. Which also depends who's working on what. Top decks don't come out of the aether. When Ian MacInnes, the Hatfields, and others in Nova started working on Thresh people freaked out over using cards like Daze, Nimble Mongoose, Portent before Ponder was printed. For a while the deck was maindecking Meddling Mages. For a deck to be good, really good, you need people working on it consistently, both the list and the sideboard, and also just lines of play. As much as we can and probably should make fun of Finn for playing white weenie for years before cards were printed to actually make it viable, without that work Thalia would probably have seen a lot less play than she does. Maybe if more people were as interested in relentless pushing the archetype there'd be a similar breakthrough for like, Recurring Nightmare-Birthing Pod, or a Legacy Twelvepost deck, or whatever.

With Jace, for instance, the card saw 3 top 8s at Legacy Opens for the first six months it was legal; 14 total for the first year. It didn't really explode until it had already been legal a full year and Caw Blade became the top Standard deck, pushing people to try the card more in Legacy; in 2011 it had 88 top 8s.

So, again, unless you have some basis for offering yourself up as a better diviner of the future metagame, really just fuck off.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I was actually using Goyf as an example of how we all make inaccurate predictions at times, because, ya'know, who honestly expected Goyf to be as good as it was back then? And how seriously were they taken?

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

yes you can try to predict how powerfull a card can become but you have to take into account both weakness and strengh of it in the context of
the current meta and future changes depending on the cards which will enter the pool in the near future.

So for legacy we can savely asume a rise of the death and taxes Decks with the SoL out cause most people asume it will stop
blue decks from cantripping.

For a cars Jace the Mindscultptor is pretty strong and can even be an eternal Ancestrall recall if you add Sqadron hawk
he also can protect himself from the most creatures and its ult is a instant Game winner. But he is not strong as
he could be in the current meta because there are needles revoker and other stuff to answer him, in the wide
maiority of the decks.
For the future I think jace would not be become better but stay at its powerlevel.

so pediction is possible but ocourse can be wrong cause its nothing more then an educated guess.

Best reguards

Teveshszat

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Most of the cards listed by IBA don't see play, as most of the decks you linked as proof that those cards are played, are non existent in current legacy.
Thopters is not played anymore since Miracles were printed.
Blue Zoo is a sub par threshold, not played by anyone. Ok maybe 3 people in US.
Cloudpost is regularly played by maybe 3 players all over the world.
Armageddon Stax…srsly

I know right? If that's what the guy thinks count as good Legacy cards, his opinion's completely irrelevant. It's easy to predict that a card will be good in Legacy correctly if that's just your prediction for every card!


I'm sorry you feel that way. I was actually using Goyf as an example of how we all make inaccurate predictions at times, because, ya'know, who honestly expected Goyf to be as good as it was back then? And how seriously were they taken?

Sorry that was unclear, I was +1'ing and the "fuck off" was directed more at MGB.

I remember very distinctly Zilla and I chatting on AIM about how it was probably a good idea to scoop up a playset of Tarmogoyfs at $3 each, because we were both pretty sure it was better than Werebear in Thresh, and we also though there might be an aggro-junk deck that could use it. Neither of us pulled the trigger though.

[lavafrogg]

A lot of people, myself included, bought our tarmogoyfs form under 3 dollars when they first were printed. It took a LONG time for people to realize that he was good, the dedicated legacy players knew almost immediatly because we had been playing threshold for a while at that point.

[2Rach]

A lot of people, myself included, bought our tarmogoyfs form under 3 dollars when they first were printed. It took a LONG time for people to realize that he was good, the dedicated legacy players knew almost immediatly because we had been playing threshold for a while at that point.
Speaking as someone who wasn't a Legacy player(though interested in the format at that point), most anyone playing BW Rack in Standard at the time, as I was, could look at Goyf and see a perfect upgrade from Jotun Grunt. I remember Tarmogoyf going to around $5 after the prerelease, or maybe release. A few weeks after that BG Rack decks started being successful and it went from $5-10-15+ at that point. It caught on pretty quickly actually.

I don't think there's any concrete way of saying "this card will break formats" even for cards like JTMS or Tarmogoyf. It's either "this is good" or "this is bad," then you put your name in the hat if it's the former and then it just turns out it's a multiple format all star, becoming $30-50+ over time.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I remember I got a foil Jitte + a playset of regular ones for like under ten bucks total right after the prerelease.

They were in our collection that got stolen.

Good investment.

O, fortuna...

[Finn]

I still feel a bit bad about a trade I made with a kid for my 3rd Tarmo. The kid was not even sure he had one, as it was a junk rare at that point to all but Legacy players. I thank Bardo for pointing out that he would be replacing his Werebears with it as soon as possible. I had not even noticed the card until he said that.