[Myth] Tarmogoyf was a mistake?

[Ectoplasm]

I don't know if this is the correct forum or not, considered posting it in the format & article discussion but then again I thought it might be better to put it here.

Thing is, almost everytime someone brings up our friend Tarmogoyf in any discussion and his powerlevel, the way he obsoletes other creatures, his price, asks if he's going to be reprinted etc. the same arguement comes up. Namely:

Tarmogoyf was a mistake

I've never seen any source on this quote, but some people say that some WotC employee (nobody ever mentions a name) wrote this in an article on wizards.com. I know Future Sight was a pretty experimental set and it had alot of potential of giving us unbalanced cards, simply because of the amount of unique mechanics and abilities that have never seen play before, so it's not that far-fetched.

So, I was wondering if anyone had an idea who it was that said 'Tarmogoyf was a mistake', where/when he said it, perhaps provide a link to said article and make an end to this once and for all? Or is it really a myth and a weak excuse for people who don't like the 'goyf to rag on his very existence by telling us it was a mistake?

[Digital Devil]

The only thing I remember was that Tarmogoyf should have been :1::g::g:, or something like that----

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVNfxf8v3F4

It doesn't say it was a mistake, though...

[Filth]

I can't rememeber if I read it in an article, or just heard someone else say they read it in an article, but I remember hearing from somewhere that Tarmogoyf was a last-minute addition to the set because they had a free slot... or something like that. It would certainly explain why no one realized its power in testing (because there was very little, if any, of it).

If I could go back in time and call WotC right before they decided to add Tarmogoyf to the set, I'd adamantly insist them to print it at :g::g:, just because I'd want to see how it would affect its price today.

[Ectoplasm]

The only thing I remember was that Tarmogoyf should have been :1::g::g:, or something like that----

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVNfxf8v3F4

It doesn't say it was a mistake, though...

He said Tarmogoyf was meant as a goofy and weird card and turned out as a good card.
Thanks :D

Edit: For those of you who don't want to watch the entire clip (I know I didn't) it's Mark Rosewater and he says so somewhere between the 6 and 7 minute mark.

[Piceli89]

I remember to have heard somewhere that they were originally going to make it cost 2G, but, for some obscure reasons, at the moment of printing they changed their mind and reduced the cost by 1, just for the "curiosity of staring at how he would have performed".


And so the warping of several formats began. Was it so hard to see that a 4/5 for 1G , although being vanilla, is a bit unbalanced, considering that the day before they were printing green 1/1s costing 1G?
Too late to regret, I guess..

[Solaran_X]

I remember to have heard somewhere that they were originally going to make it cost 2G, but, for some obscure reasons, at the moment of printing they changed their mind and reduced the cost by 1, just for the "curiosity of staring at how he would have performed".


And so the warping of several formats began. Was it so hard to see that a 4/5 for 1G , although being vanilla, is a bit unbalanced, considering that the day before they were printing green 1/1s costing 1G?
Too late to regret, I guess..
Tarmogoyf didn't "warp" anything except peoples' wallets. Nothing Tarmogoyf did could compare to a warped format. Just look at Black Summer, Combo Winter, and Mirrodin Standard. THOSE were warped formats. Tarmogoyf did nothing that could even begin to compare to that.

[Nessaja]

http://www.wizards.com/MagiC/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/mm/67

The card, at first blush, looks like a goofy Lhurgoyf tweak. (To be fair, it is a goofy Lhurgoyf tweak.) Sure, it can grow quickly if the right number of different card types are in all graveyards, but how hard is that to accomplish? That uncertainty hid the value of the card for a month or two when the set was released. By the way, I should point out that while R&D knew this card was good it ended up proving to be even better than R&D initially thought.
Mistake is a pretty free translation

[andrew77]

Tarmogoyf didn't "warp" anything except peoples' wallets. Nothing Tarmogoyf did could compare to a warped format. Just look at Black Summer, Combo Winter, and Mirrodin Standard. THOSE were warped formats. Tarmogoyf did nothing that could even begin to compare to that.

Whatever you believe about tarmogoyf warping the format the fact of the matter is he definitely defines the format. Legacy is basically the format of tarmogoyf and force of will. That being said force of will is a much fairer card than tarmogoyf and promotes a much healthier format. It keeps certain degenerate strategies in check, while allowing a number of cards to be kept off the banned list. Goyf just invalidates so many decks/strategies because he is bigger/better than any other creature, excepting maybe dark confidant.

[sunshine]

Most of the time when people say "Tarmogoyf was a mistake" they mean it as more of an opinion than implying the WotC actually acknowledges they regret printing him. I do remember an interview of Turian though, on the magic show, where he states that Goyf was set at 1GG for a while in development but they dropped him to 1G because they didn't feel green was strong enough.

[grahf]

I do remember an interview of Turian though, on the magic show, where he states that Goyf was set at 1GG for a while in development but they dropped him to 1G because they didn't feel green was strong enough.

Oh the irony. At 1GG it would have actually made green better (not as splashable), as it stands they ended up making blue better.

[andrew77]

It should cost GG. Or it should have an extra line of text that says whenever you play a blue spell sacrifice tarmogoyf. If it were to cost 3 mana it would be competing with a lot of other creatures that would trump it.

[Tacosnape]

Should. Would. Could. Doesn't. A severely undercosted vanilla threat that's weak against graveyard hate doesn't break formats.

Just because Tarmogoyf's the best threat in Legacy doesn't mean it's overpowered. Just like when Goblin Lackey was the best threat in Legacy.

[Solaran_X]

Whatever you believe about tarmogoyf warping the format the fact of the matter is he definitely defines the format. Legacy is basically the format of tarmogoyf and force of will. That being said force of will is a much fairer card than tarmogoyf and promotes a much healthier format. It keeps certain degenerate strategies in check, while allowing a number of cards to be kept off the banned list. Goyf just invalidates so many decks/strategies because he is bigger/better than any other creature, excepting maybe dark confidant.
First off, there is a gulf of difference between "defining a format" and "warping a format".

For example, Black Summer was a warped format for what is now referred to as Standard. People were either playing Necropotence decks, or were playing decks designed solely to beat Necropotence decks.

For example, Combo Winter was a warped format for what is now referred to as Standard. People were either playing Tolarian Academy decks, or were playing decks designed solely to beat Tolarian Academy decks.

For example, Mirrodin Standard was a warped format. People were either playing Affinity, or were playing decks designed solely to beat Affinity decks.

If anything, Tarmogoyf actually had little/no impact on the formats - even in Legacy. At :1::g:, he is used in a wide variety of decks. Due to this exact dispersion through out the format (regardless of whether you're looking at Legacy or Standard, and him impact in Vintage is negligible), Goyfs often run into Goyfs and effectively cancel each other out. Now, imagine if Goyf cost :1::g::g: ("unsplashable" according to many people, despite the fact that a properly designed mana base can splash double off color even in Standard - I did it during RAV/TSP). Only decks that ran a load of green would run him. With only one color running Tarmogoyf and no splashed Tarmogoyfs to counter it, then Goyf probably would have had a worse impact than it already had.

And as for this "Goyf has invalidated so many decks/strategies"...what decks or strategies has Goyf invalidated? And I'm not even going to get involved in the myth that Goyf was solely the cause of the demise of dozens of creatures. Even if he was banned, a lot of those creatures wouldn't see play because of power creep regardless. Goyf was just the final nail in the coffin.

[Ectoplasm]

And as for this "Goyf has invalidated so many decks/strategies"...what decks or strategies has Goyf invalidated? And I'm not even going to get involved in the myth that Goyf was solely the cause of the demise of dozens of creatures. Even if he was banned, a lot of those creatures wouldn't see play because of power creep regardless. Goyf was just the final nail in the coffin.

This. Most (pretty much all) of the dudes played right now are extended-legal :)

[Digital Devil]

I agree with that - most decks pack only creatures with the new frame. The only issue is that unlike Tombstalker/Dreadnought, Tarmogoyf doesn't need a proper deckbuilding process around it. Just toss in a few Trops, your opponent is filling the 'yard for you. And no, I'm not one of those "please ban Goyf for the sake of humanity" people, because it takes 5 minutes to buy and play Tarmogoyfs myself.

[Volt]

Tarmogoyf hasn't warped the format so much as infested it. It is annoying in its ubiquity, but it has probably validated as many strategies as it has invalidated.

I would be mildly pleased to see Tarmogoyf get banned, despite currently owning 5 of them. On the other hand, Legacy is a fun format right now, so whatever.

[Forbiddian]

Wizards did a great job recovering from the printing of Goyf. If they had gone back and printed circa Mirrodin block shits, Tarmogoyf would continue to define/warp/corrupt/infest the format.

But as it is, Wizards has consistently been printing powerful creatures and effects that can compete on the level of Goyf.


It was so painful to transition into more powerful creatures (like when Goyf was the only good creature played and everyone was running 4 copies in every deck), but now Nacatl and Qasali exist and Green as a whole sees play as more than just a splash. I'm glad that green got back into the color pie on the recent printing of these extremely powerful creatures.

[Tangle.Wire]

i remember days where same discussion where running about cursed scroll :tongue: maybe i'll run a Tarmo/Scroll deck to win every game with it.

[TrialByFire]

Are we still bitching about Tarmogoyf? Get over it its been legal for 2+ years now and its not going anywhere anytime soon.

[keys]

Goyf would be slightly worse than that new Baloth if it was 1GG, and a lot worse than Woolly Thoctar for that matter. GG might have been more fair but whatever. It's here to stay!

[beastman]

Are we still bitching about Tarmogoyf? Get over it its been legal for 2+ years now and its not going anywhere anytime soon.

+ a lot

[Solaran_X]

+ a lot
Future Sight was released on April 21st, 2007.
Today is December 22nd, 2009.

That's two years and ten months. So "+ a lot" is actually very incorrect.

[sunshine]

I'm thinking he meant "+ a lot" as in "+ 1", except times a lot ;). Just strongly agreeing, not commenting on the time. I'll agree with that sentiment too, it sucks that Goyf costs so much and so many decks play it but look on the bright side, at least you don't have to own a set of power to play a deck that isn't sub optimal in sanctioned events.

[beastman]

Future Sight was released on April 21st, 2007.
Today is December 22nd, 2009.

That's two years and ten months. So "+ a lot" is actually very incorrect.

I was agreeing with the statement......

I hate the internetz....

[Solaran_X]

Bah. I got confused, when I saw 2+ years and then a + a lot.

Sorry for trying to correct what didn't need corrected.

[herbig]

Bah. I got confused, when I saw 2+ years and then a + a lot.

More like 2 years and 10 months. Future Sight was released in April 2007. LOlzz334

Also, who up there said Tarmogoyf is vulnerable to graveyard hate? This forum is dumb.

[beastman]

Your dumb. Who has pictures of underdeveloped gymnasts as their avatar?

[FoolofaTook]

Tarmogoyf didn't "warp" anything except peoples' wallets. Nothing Tarmogoyf did could compare to a warped format. Just look at Black Summer, Combo Winter, and Mirrodin Standard. THOSE were warped formats. Tarmogoyf did nothing that could even begin to compare to that.

Tarmogoyf warped the format significantly given that it is THE creature in most top 8 decks that contain creatures. 9921 inclusions in top 8 decks according to deckcheck.net. The next closest creature is less than half that.

Before Tarmogoyf you had a quartet of creatures (Dark Confidant, Mishra's Factory, Nimble Mongoose and Mogg Fanatic) that lead a much more balanced overall roster of creatures. After Tarmogoyf there is Goyf and then everything else.

[Volt]

Your dumb. Who has pictures of underdeveloped gymnasts as their avatar?

I had to look this up to find it out, but Dominique Moceanu is 28 years old.

Also, you're dumb.

Oh, and stuff about Tarmogoyf or whatever.

[Aggro_zombies]

I had to look this up to find it out, but Dominique Moceanu is 28 years old.

Also, you're dumb.
Dude, don't go falling for the troll bait.

[beastman]

60

BTW, Aggro Zombizzle. You are the culprit of one of my favorite trolls evar. So yeah...

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

60

BTW, Aggro Zombizzle. You are the culprit of one of my favorite trolls evar. So yeah...

As they say, pics or it didn't happen.

So what do I think of Goyf? Well, I'm pissed off I didn't buy any when they were cheap, and I'm still a little pissed off that its casting cost isn't :g::g:. That is all.

[Skeggi]

So I herd liek aboot this other mith thet futur site is stil teh longust runnin april fool's prank!!one

[Aggro_zombies]

BTW, Aggro Zombizzle. You are the culprit of one of my favorite trolls evar. So yeah...
o rly

@Skeggi: Contraptions recently confirmed by MaRo for Mirrodin Pure!

EDIT: On second thought, people would probably take me more seriously on this site if I didn't sound like a borderline troll all the time. Hmmmm...

[Nihil Credo]

Nobody could have foreseen this.