Shackles and pump effects

[pi4meterftw]

I have a 4/4 equipped with umezawa's jitte. He has a vedalken shackles with 5 islands in play, and enough mana to use it. My jitte has 4 counters on it. Is there any way I can avoid getting my 4/4 stolen by shackles?

[Nonex]

Remove a counter in response to the Shackles activation to give +2/+2. Having power greater than the number of Islands makes the target illegal and causes the ability to be countered on resolution.

[pi4meterftw]

Remove a counter in response to the Shackles activation to give +2/+2. Having power greater than the number of Islands makes the target illegal and causes the ability to be countered on resolution.

Does it check on resolution? It does not have an intervening "if" clause.

Also, suppose I control an aura of silence, and someone shackles my morph creature. I do not want him to be able to see it, so I destroy the shackles in response. Does the morph creature ever change control?

[Maveric78f]

The targetting always checks at activation and resolution.

About the Morph question, no, it won't change controller at all.

[pi4meterftw]

Is one of the M10 rules that intervening if clauses are now implied? I seem to remember that only things with the special clause, like bridge from below, can be stopped once they're on the stack. At the same time, I know that spellstutter sprite can be stopped by removal. Can someone please explain why an intervening close is not/no longer necessary?

[cdr]

An intervening-if clause is a completely different kettle of fish than counting the number of something.

A spell or ability that needs the number of something will only check the number when the spell/ability is played/triggered if it's required for targeting (like Shackles or Spellstutter), but will always check on resolution.

An intervening-if clause forces something to be checked on triggering and resolution that would not normally be checked, like whether something is in a certain zone (Bridge).


608.2g. If an effect requires information from the game (such as the number of creatures on the battlefield), the answer is determined only once, when the effect is applied. If the effect requires information from a specific object, including the source of the ability itself or a target that's become illegal, the effect uses the current information of that object if it's in the zone it was expected to be in; otherwise, the effect uses the object's last known information. See rule 112.7a. (Note that if an effect divides or distributes something, such as damage or counters, as a player chooses among some number of target creatures or players, the amount and division were determined as the spell or ability was put onto the stack rather than at this time; see rule 601.2d.) If the ability text states that an object does something, it's the object as it exists-or as it most recently existed-that does it, not the ability.


603.4. A triggered ability may read "When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect]." When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn't true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the "intervening 'if' clause" rule. (The word "if" has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an "if" that immediately follows a trigger condition.)

[Nonex]

I think you're confusing the intervening "if" clause with targets. Both are checked on both announcement / trigger and resolution, and M10 didn't change that.

Your question about Shackles is about mere targets. The target for Shackles is a "creature with power less than or equal to the number of Islands you control", and since the target is pumped by Jitte before the ability resolves, it's countered on resolution when it checks the target again and finds its power to be too high.

Spellstutter Sprite is also about targets. The target for its ability is a "spell with converted mana cost less than or equal to the number of Faeries you control". This time you can't change the spell's cost like you did with the creature's power in the previous case, but you can use removal so the number of Faeries is too low for the spell they want to counter. The target is checked again on resolution and its cost happens to be too high for the remaining Faeries.

About destroying the Shackles in response, the target is still valid if you don't modifiy its power and the ability resolves as normal, but then Shackles states that you steal the creature "for as long as Vedalken Shackles remains tapped", something that can only happen if it's on the battlefield. That means that the condition necessary to keep control of the creature once you steal it ceases to apply before you even steal said creature, so it never changes controllers.


611.2b Some continuous effects generated by the resolution of a spell or ability have durations worded “for as long as . . . .” If the “for as long as” duration never starts, or it ends before the moment the effect would first be applied, the effect does nothing. It doesn’t start and immediately stop again, and it doesn’t last forever.

Now Bridge from Below is a case involving the intervening "if" clause. Without that clause, if multiple creatures died on both sides at the same time, the Bridge's controller would get tokens no matter how he/she stacked the triggered abilities. In a similar fashion, sacrificing Mogg Fanatic in response to his/her Ichorids dying would exile the Bridges, but would not prevent him/her from getting tokens.

[pi4meterftw]

Thank you everyone, that was very helpful.