Oath

[Shai tan teh reaper]

Legacy is my favorite format but oath is my favorite deck so i decided to try and port it over. any comments r suggestions would b great thx

// Lands
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest

// Creatures
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Empyrial Archangel

// Spells
4 Defense of the Heart
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Duress
2 Ponder
2 Fire/Ice
3 Dark Ritual
2 Gifts Ungiven
2 Cunning Wish
1 Regrowth
1 Misdirection
1 Recoup
1 Crime/Punishment
3 Spell Snare
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Burning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Show and Tell
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Idyllic Tutor
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 1 Life from the Loam

[heroicraptor]

Defense of the Heart sucks in Legacy, unless you face a monumentus amount of aggro, and then you'll lose befor it will matter.

[hyc8028]

Defense of the Heart isn't even close to the power of Oath. First, it is 4 CMC and you will have to wait until your next upkeep for it to trigger. Second, you will need your opponent to have 3 critters, which I think it can be hard to meet just rely on Forbidden Orchard. One single Goyf can goes distance in Legacy. 4 CMC with the trigger condition won't make it in legacy, but I like DotH in EDH.

[Illissius]

The nice thing about Defense is you get to run other creatures besides the ones for Defense.

Edit: Wow, it's three creatures? I thought it was two. Then yeah, it sucks.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

"Defense of the Heart sucks in Legacy, unless you face monumentus amount of aggro, and then you'll lose befor it will matter."

zoo is actually one of the harder matches so far. standstills and other control decks have been much easier.

"Defense of the Heart isn't even close to the power of Oath. First, it is 4 CMC and you will have to wait until your next upkeep for it to trigger. Second, you will need your opponent to have 3 critters, which I think it can be hard to meet just rely on Forbidden Orchard. One single Goyf can goes distance in Legacy. 4 CMC with the trigger condition won't make it in legacy, but I like DotH in EDH."

agreed oath is infinitely better than Defense, but im still going to give it a try and its been working fairly well for such a ruff list so far. next turn waiting is a pain but the same goes for oath just something you have to play around. 4cc is high but not horrible, dark rit and second turn can get it on the field and hard cast on forth turn for fith turn win isn't to shabby for a deck with this much disruption as well. goyf can go the distance is very true deed and punishment r there for times when aggro comes down to hard but i have still not had too much of a problem with my opponent having goyf +2 tokens and win, pridemage is a much haredr threat from threash fire is md only for that reason.

"'The nice thing about Defense is you get to run other creatures besides the ones for Defense.

Edit: Wow, it's three creatures? I thought it was two. Then yeah, it sucks."

what other critters did u have in mind? goyf to block aggro are something like bop/nobel? deck can support B-U-G-R mana pretty easy so lots of critters to choose from. Three Citters is not hard at all to give your opponent most games

[Rad_Fishy]

Since you can search for two creatures would it be worth playing some of the Tooth and Nail combos like Mephidross Vampire/Triskelion or Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Sky Hussar or Pestermite?

[MMogg]

I tried for years to get Defense of the Heart to work in casual play, and it even failed there. If you can get it to work in a highly competitive format like Legacy, more power to you!

[hyc8028]

If you use ritual into DotH, you are open up yourself 2 for 1 for something that doesn't impact board position immediately. Even if you get it out, you will have to wait for a turn. Giving up one turn is huge in legacy.

[mchainmail]

I definitely think you should have some form of two-card combo lock like painter-iona.

Blazing Archon also sounds good, because against aggro you're going to be in trouble when they have three creatures out.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

"Since you can search for two creatures would it be worth playing some of the Tooth and Nail combos like Mephidross Vampire/Triskelion or Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Sky Hussar or Pestermite?"

yeah those combos seem strong vamp and tri r ok but kiki and pester r rly cool but i still have yet to lose a game with defense triggering so far and all the critters i run now can b used for fow/mis and show and tell. def keep combo in mind tho

" I tried for years to get Defense of the Heart to work in casual play, and it even failed there. If you can get it to work in a highly competitive format like Legacy, more power to you!"

lol thx bro, if u have alot of experience with it you should give my list a try on mws and help me with some testing if you have time :)

"If you use ritual into DotH, you are open up yourself 2 for 1 for something that doesn't impact board position immediately. Even if you get it out, you will have to wait for a turn. Giving up one turn is huge in legacy."

2 for 1 is true if i dark ritual but thats not a huge deal r at least hasn't been so far. giving up a turn is game sometimes for sur but the power of getting to search for iona + fat is amazing like i said i have yet to lose with it triggering regardless of board

"I definitely think you should have some form of two-card combo lock like painter-iona.

Blazing Archon also sounds good, because against aggro you're going to be in trouble when they have three creatures out."

yeah painter iona r nice but once DotH triggers its win getting to trigger is the harder part. Archon is definatly good but im still gona stick with archangel for now because it cant be removed and stops burn

[kicks_422]

I believe you'll need more than just 4 Forbidden Orchard to trigger Defense constantly. Maybe you could start with 4 Crop Rotation.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

yeah i thought about crop rotation and a one r two utility lands but i rly didn't kno how to fit it in, four seems over kill but 1-3 would defiantly be worth testing

[Illissius]

Deserted Temple might be worth a thought.

[Rad_Fishy]

If you add Crop Rotation, Maze of Ith might be worth while to force them to play more creatures.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

yeah temple seems neat i do send a lot of eot's just tapping an orchard but if i run crop it probably wouldn't b worth it, something to think about tho thanks

[kicks_422]

Well, you really need the Orchards for the deck to function consistently. Maybe you should cut the Burning Wishes and the Gifts engine for 4 Enlightened Tutors for the DotH's, and 4 Crop Rotations for the Orchards. This way, you practically have 8 copies of each card in the deck.

Even so, it still looks pretty hard to pull it off.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

"If you add Crop Rotation, Maze of Ith might be worth while to force them to play more creatures."

that seems pretty solid

"Well, you really need the Orchards for the deck to function consistently. Maybe you should cut the Burning Wishes and the Gifts engine for 4 Enlightened Tutors for the DotH's, and 4 Crop Rotations for the Orchards. This way, you practically have 8 copies of each card in the deck.

Even so, it still looks pretty hard to pull it off."

the problem is crop and e.tutor are both hand disadvantage, a few crops i think is on the right track but e.tutor im definatly not a fan of mayb on on board for wish the FOF hasn't rly done me anything. Mayb grim tutor are beseech the queen? they fetch either and then some and don't give up cards?

B.Wish hits show and tell witch is amazing and firesrpout to help against zoo but gifts could be cut and wish could b to but its pretty strong

[Ectoplasm]

Seems fun enough though I don't think this has any chance of being competitive, reanimate seems infinitely better.
Also, you're most likely getting a warning for your writing once a mod sees this so heads up to ya.

Good luck though :) I've made my share of DotH decks in casual and they never ever worked. They were fun to play though (especially the giant tribal with all those 7 mana behemoths from morningtide and lorwyn).

[Shai tan teh reaper]

I was thinking about the e.tutor and even tho a dont like that card, what do you guys think about white in general instead of red? Replenish? Knight of what ever? knight has big butt and acts like crop rotation. replenish is good with gifts gifts for deed DotH replenish free card? im sur white has some other options as well?

possible like this

// Lands
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Underground Sea
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [A] Tundra
2 [A] Island (2)
1 [A] Plains (2)
1 [A] Forest (2)
1 [A] Swamp (2)

// Creatures
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [DIS] Tidespout Tyrant
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 [UL] Defense of the Heart
4 [IA] Brainstorm
2 [US] Duress
3 [LRW] Ponder
3 [A] Dark Ritual
2 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [A] Regrowth
1 [MM] Misdirection
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [UD] Replenish
2 [AP] Fire/Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [A] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [SHM] Mercy Killing
SB: 1 [ALA] Esper Charm

[Shai tan teh reaper]

"Seems fun enough though I don't think this has any chance of being competitive, reanimate seems infinitely better.
Also, you're most likely getting a warning for your writing once a mod sees this so heads up to ya.

Good luck though :) I've made my share of DotH decks in casual and they never ever worked. They were fun to play though (especially the giant tribal with all those 7 mana behemoths from morningtide and lorwyn)."

Yeah i completely for got about that rule thanks for the heads up bro, i apologize in advance for that.

Yeah the deck is a blast to play, i played reanimate for a bit and i just can't stand playing a deck that needs grav so bad and half the cards are hand disadvantage but i still see your point to an extent.

[mchainmail]

How about Hunted Horror or Hunted Phantasm? Makes it a lot easier to get Defense to trigger.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[hunted]

[kicks_422]

I would look into Phantasm and Troll first before Horror. Because those two trigger Defense of the Heart on their own.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

yeah phantasm and troll look pretty good troll is better but cost 4, so i guess phantasm would be better just because 3 drop? but the 5 gobs could be harsh. What slot you think they should take? probably just 2-3 phantasm are troll? Do you guys think it's really better then Knight if the Reliquary?

[hyc8028]

Have you done extensive playtesting on the deck?

[Shai tan teh reaper]

"Have you done extensive playtesting on the deck?"

i would defiantly not say extensive, no. but i have been playing it quite a bit for the past few days on mws at least 150+ games. why do you ask?

[wolfstorm]

Would gamekeeper work in here?... Always scarry to swing into him.. though it opens you up to creature removal :/

[Rizso]

I think you should have a option for a creature combo that makes you win directly after the defence trigger. Like Pestermite and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

'Would gamekeeper work in here?... Always scarry to swing into him.. though it opens you up to creature removal :/"

yeah i thought about him but i just figured that would be too much going on needing DotH and orchard are Keeper and way to sac they don't really have any synergy but he could defiantly work if i could figure out how to have him and DotH not take up too many slot to play together. but i think academy rector would fit better hits DotH and DeeD and i'm sure with a 4-5 color mana base there is plenty of other beast mode enchanments that could be silver bullets, moat sounds really hot in this deck

the biggest thing i'am thinking about at this point in testing is dropping dark rit and open a few more slots and put some more control in the deck, in either some hard draw, spot removal, counters, and/or board removal. what do you guys think? is getting them 3 critters and getting Doth out quick with excel just wishful thinking?

[Shai tan teh reaper]

been playing around with rector after wolfstorm suggested keeper and so far i like him. here is the rector version not much change actually but seems to run smoother
// Lands
1 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Underground Sea
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [A] Tundra
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [A] Swamp (2)
2 [A] Island (2)
1 [A] Plains (2)
1 [A] Forest (2)

// Creatures
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [DIS] Tidespout Tyrant
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
2 [UD] Academy Rector

// Spells
4 [UL] Defense of the Heart
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [LRW] Ponder
2 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [A] Regrowth
1 [MM] Misdirection
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [AP] Fire/Ice
3 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [LG] Moat

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [A] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt

more lands then the others i have ran 21 compared to 19 witch can get to be too many at times but no dark ritual in this on, the only thing that i think this needs now with rector is that the one MisD needs to be a good silver bullet enchantment i just don't know what to put there. and solid draw spell on sb for B.wish would be nice. any thoughts?

[Metaknight]

Ok, issues with this deck list.
1) you are running a lot of 1, 2, and 3 of's to run more 1, 2, and 3 of's. This will make your deck quite inconsistent.

2) The overall meta right now will rape Defense.
-Bant has mainboard Trygon Predator to blow up your defense.
-Zoo will just straight out race your defense because with a decent hand you will be dead by the time defense goes off.
-You are running blue, which means merfolk will rape you.

3) Wasteland and Stifle are abundant within the meta and anything green has krosan grip in the board.

4) Force of Will in order to actually be useful has to have 16 other blue cards. You only have 13.

5) Where is the Progenitus?

6) You only have 6 counterspells, the average deck is running 7 not including Counterbalance which you also have no way of dealing with.

7) Your sideboard is incredibly Terrible, normally people run one of's to add to the ones that already exist in the main. So why only 1 enlightened tutor?

My suggestion destroy this list and learn to really build a deck after you have actually had some experience in the meta and with magic itself. Defense isn't used for a reason. It is too slow and too dependent upon one card going off, which the meta has infinite ways to stop.

but after all that it does look pretty fun. :)

[hyc8028]

Hmm, I like the Reactor idea as he will be able to fetch DotH. Someone mention you don't run enough blue cards to support FoW. Have you consider dropping blue entirely and lean more toward The Rock and more stable mana base?

Edit: DotH is a trigger ability. Stifle will hose it and you have no way to stop Stifle beside FoW/Therapy.

[eq.firemind]

How about Varchild's War-Riders?
They can block almost everything Zoo and Tribal can offer, cost only 2 and enable Defence of Heart...

[Metaknight]

How about Varchild's War-Riders?
They can block almost everything Zoo and Tribal can offer, cost only 2 and enable Defence of Heart...

seriously? have you even looked at the deck list? he has 4 ways to produce red, that he can only fetch with knight. you wanna take a guess as to how unreliable adding more red to the list will be? why would you add more red cards that he will never be able to play. honestly you need to drop at least two colors. running 5 color is just dumb. especially when your deck isn't anywhere near stream lined. you have no direction. you have one, two, and three of's that don't serve any purpose. what does running 2 spell snare do for you? when has that ever helped you consistently? i'm sorry for the rant i just can't believe i'm the first one to say anything. do any of you understand what i'm saying or are all of you bad at this game too?

[SlopeeJ]

I played him online on mws right after browsing this thread. I also didn't like the random 1-3 of's and thought the deck has an identity crisis. From the list it seems like it would have a really hard time vs agroo decks, so I suggested wall of roots. Which will help block goyf and also can be used to speed up mana.

When playing vs him he took 5 damage from just his own tokens alone.

As far as trying to stop ever answer, you just can't do. You can't have random 1-2 of's to try to do that because it hurts consistency, which has been stated.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

"Ok, issues with this deck list.
1) you are running a lot of 1, 2, and 3 of's to run more 1, 2, and 3 of's. This will make your deck quite inconsistent.

2) The overall meta right now will rape Defense.
-Bant has mainboard Trygon Predator to blow up your defense.
-Zoo will just straight out race your defense because with a decent hand you will be dead by the time defense goes off.
-You are running blue, which means merfolk will rape you.

3) Wasteland and Stifle are abundant within the meta and anything green has krosan grip in the board.

4) Force of Will in order to actually be useful has to have 16 other blue cards. You only have 13.

5) Where is the Progenitus?

6) You only have 6 counterspells, the average deck is running 7 not including Counterbalance which you also have no way of dealing with.

7) Your sideboard is incredibly Terrible, normally people run one of's to add to the ones that already exist in the main. So why only 1 enlightened tutor?

My suggestion destroy this list and learn to really build a deck after you have actually had some experience in the meta and with magic itself. Defense isn't used for a reason. It is too slow and too dependent upon one card going off, which the meta has infinite ways to stop.

but after all that it does look pretty fun. :)"

1. agreed the deck is in the unstable side, that's why i posted it to try to get it more slim and stream lined

2. i have played zoo more than any other deck and have about 35/40-75/60 win ratio witch i don't think is bad for a just starting out decklist vs a long time played and streamlined deck, trygon is a problem for sure and something im going to have to find a answer to in my deck, i haven't played against merfolks yet so i don't know what the match will be like but im assume it will be easier then thresh due to the fact that merfolk die to firespout, REB, and the run no enchantment hate

3. stifle and grip can be handled with discard are counters, wasteland on the other hand is a problem much harder to get around i haven't quite found an answer to him yet

4. i have 18 blue cards not counting force so i have no idea why you think i can't support it?

5. progenitus is bad, he does nothing for this deck. iona locks, sphinx life gains and swings and blocks, archangel eats up aggro, and tidespout bounces unwanted things off the field. the tidespout might be cut for somthing else i never DotH for him but i don't know what will take his spot

7. i have less counters but discard and deed and Reb to deal with counterbalance, witch isn't a huge game breaker for this deck anyways

8. the one of's are for the wishes, but agreed the sideboard is still not in the best shape

i have loads of experiance in the meta and in magic in general, i didn't state here is the best deck ever come take a look, i posted an extremely ruff idea to see if i could get the deck to become more streamlined and a threat.

it is fun to play, especially because i built the list with out counter-top are goyf witch i have seen entirely too much of recently.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

"How about Varchild's War-Riders?
They can block almost everything Zoo and Tribal can offer, cost only 2 and enable Defence of Heart..."

interesting i have never seen him before but i don't think hes good enough to make the cut, probably worse then the hunted's

"Quote:
Originally Posted by eq.firemind
How about Varchild's War-Riders?
They can block almost everything Zoo and Tribal can offer, cost only 2 and enable Defence of Heart..."

"seriously? have you even looked at the deck list? he has 4 ways to produce red, that he can only fetch with knight. you wanna take a guess as to how unreliable adding more red to the list will be? why would you add more red cards that he will never be able to play. honestly you need to drop at least two colors. running 5 color is just dumb. especially when your deck isn't anywhere near stream lined. you have no direction. you have one, two, and three of's that don't serve any purpose. what does running 2 spell snare do for you? when has that ever helped you consistently? i'm sorry for the rant i just can't believe i'm the first one to say anything. do any of you understand what i'm saying or are all of you bad at this game too?"

the deck isn't near as inconstant as you believe for some reason i have 4Fow and 3Theraphy for protection the 2spell snares are just for a little extra come in handy vs most the format would you prefer i cut the 2snares, 2cunning wish, 2fire/ice and have an overkill deck of entire four of"s? No, of course not when you build a deck you go for synergy cards that compliment each other nicely and make the deck play smoothly. i completely agree with you if your saying this deck is nowhere close to finished/streamlined/synergistic but to say its bad is just ignorant, nothing wrong with 2of's you run cards according to the chance you want to see them in any given game DotH is key so 4 snare is just back up counter because you can only run 4 Fow so it only gets 2 slots, i fail to see the flaw in my logic? maybe im wrong but i don't see anything wrong with trying to play something out of left field and make it good.

"I played him online on mws right after browsing this thread. I also didn't like the random 1-3 of's and thought the deck has an identity crisis. From the list it seems like it would have a really hard time vs agroo decks, so I suggested wall of roots. Which will help block goyf and also can be used to speed up mana.

When playing vs him he took 5 damage from just his own tokens alone.

As far as trying to stop ever answer, you just can't do. You can't have random 1-2 of's to try to do that because it hurts consistency, which has been stated."

again agreed the deck is far from streamlined but i think the rector in it now helps quite a bit. and for a deck that is new i still almost won game one and did win game two with my old list so i don't think thats to bad considering i was facing one of the best decks in the format.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

Here is the newest version just for reference

// Lands
1 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Underground Sea
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [A] Tundra
1 [A] Swamp (2)
2 [A] Island (2)
1 [A] Plains (2)
1 [A] Forest (2)
1 [A] Mountain (2)
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn

// Creatures
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 [DIS] Tidespout Tyrant
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel
2 [UD] Academy Rector

// Spells
4 [UL] Defense of the Heart
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [A] Regrowth
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [AP] Fire/Ice
1 [LG] Moat
2 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
3 [JU] Burning Wish

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [US] Show and Tell
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 1 [A] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 [RAV] Compulsive Research

tried to fix some of the jankness, but the sb is still kinda crap

[Pastorofmuppets]

where's Progenitus in your lists? He pitches to FoW a lot better than Iona.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Use "QUOTE" or " " " so it's easier to read between posts.


Defense of the Heart was pretty badass back in the day... have you considered any of those "Hunted --" creatures?

[wolfstorm]

I really think with cabal therapy game keeper would be the way to go over academy rector considering most of the time (if you only use him as a 2 slot) you will put one of your big angry creatures into play.. and if you get the other game keeper you probably would have flipped another therapy like salvager's game. Rector for defense of the heart might not be OMG I WIN NOW(opponent only has 1 goyf in play or something.) when it happens while a game keeper trigger could be over right there.

Also if you leave keeper back as blocker it forces them to over extend if you have defense in hand, just make sure to hit there removal before playing him.

[BreathWeapon]

Intuition/Loam seems really good, considering you're tutoring for either Defense of the Heart or you can find Orchard(s) in a pinch and crank out tokens.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

where's Progenitus in your lists? He pitches to FoW a lot better than Iona.


He is much much worse than any of the critters i run except for tyrant, but as of now i still think even tyrant is better. i responded to the same questoin a little wail back if you want to see my logic on why he isn't very hot in this deck

[Shai tan teh reaper]

Use "QUOTE" or " " " so it's easier to read between posts.


Defense of the Heart was pretty badass back in the day... have you considered any of those "Hunted --" creatures?


thx, now all i have to do is figure how to quote multiples at once :S. i haven't tested the hunted's but the blue and green one both look pretty good

[Shai tan teh reaper]

I really think with cabal therapy game keeper would be the way to go over academy rector considering most of the time (if you only use him as a 2 slot) you will put one of your big angry creatures into play.. and if you get the other game keeper you probably would have flipped another therapy like salvager's game. Rector for defense of the heart might not be OMG I WIN NOW(opponent only has 1 goyf in play or something.) when it happens while a game keeper trigger could be over right there.

Also if you leave keeper back as blocker it forces them to over extend if you have defense in hand, just make sure to hit there removal before playing him.


yeah keeper has potential but i just don't see him as better then rector at the moment he might be don't get me wrong i haven't tested him but i like rector becouse it's either get DotH for two critters are get moat witch is a house in itself

[Shai tan teh reaper]

Intuition/Loam seems really good, considering you're tutoring for either Defense of the Heart or you can find Orchard(s) in a pinch and crank out tokens.

i have gifts witch is hand advantage and i like that alot, intuition is really good as well thought, i have regrowth witch is like loam but doesn't suck to draw, i had a loam in the sb forever for burning wish and never went for it once (actually it's still in my board :S), but it might be something to try switch gifts for intuition and one crime/punishment for loam?

is there anything else good that comes with loam i just cant justify putting it in MD, it helps versus wasteland? but so does crop rotation and that also finds orchids? i would like to run Intuition/loam (are gifts loam) it just doesn't seem worth it to get orchard/loam/free card.

[wolfstorm]

I believe you should also change your tutored creatures a little... you really dont want your guys getting removed by swords to plowshares, Iona and empyrial archangel are both solid but for the other 2 i would run progenitus and inkwell leviathan. Vintage oath can run non-shrouded creatures because removal is not seen as much as it is in legacy.

Of course though that would cause problems with moat.. Another idea though if you don't care about swords could be Dragon tyrant + Karthus for a instant win with 1 red (or if they fetched once.)

[kicks_422]

Just run Iona, Progenitus and Magister Sphinx.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

I believe you should also change your tutored creatures a little... you really dont want your guys getting removed by swords to plowshares, Iona and empyrial archangel are both solid but for the other 2 i would run progenitus and inkwell leviathan. Vintage oath can run non-shrouded creatures because removal is not seen as much as it is in legacy.

Of course though that would cause problems with moat.. Another idea though if you don't care about swords could be Dragon tyrant + Karthus for a instant win with 1 red (or if they fetched once.)

swords is not a problem if your scared of it just name white with iona, the other critters all have a purpose with the exception of tyrant he might go. but i still think hes better then prog, but i might switch tyrant for him. the other critters are perfect for this deck they all have amazing abilities witch play perfect in the deck, might run i combo like the two dragons are kiki-jiki and pestermite, but i said it a few days ago and it's almost perfect record of when DotH triggers i win the game out of probably at least 200+ triggers i have lost one game and prog would have been worse there, combo critters would have won tho. stp can be iona'd are therapied are just countered and it has not come up as a problem yet, it does suck on rector every once in a wail but that's a different story. the problem is find the best "shell" to get DotH to trigger the critters are most certainly not the problem in the games i have lost. with that said i would be more than happy if you tested on mws and proved my wrong and told me what you would change (in deck as a whole not just critters but of course them as well) after testing :) can only test soo much by myself

i forgot to add also just as personal preference i like critters that can hold there own with iona that's way i haven's tested combo yet i almost always want and do fetch iona when DotH triggers

[Roman Candle]

I think the best combo win with DotH is definitely Iona+Painter's Servant, since its immune to StP.

[ktkenshinx]

I generally like the idea of Defense of the Heart and this deck, in spite of its weaknesses. With the continuing rise of Zoo, not to mention Merfolk and, to a lesser extent, Aggro Loam, it is likely that your opponent will trigger the Defense for you.
The big advantage that Defense has over Oath is that you can choose which creatures you are getting. This seems obvious, but let me elaborate. In a Defense based deck, it is foolish to just have big, random fatties like Akroma, Inkwell, Sphinx, etc. They are powerful, yes, but they do not fully take advantage of the card. The ability to seek out two specific creatures means that you should look not for big hitters, but comboing creatures.
I feel fairly cheesy asking this, but for the sake of deck development, I will anyway: have you considered a Hulk kill?

You can use Defense to get a Hulk and a sacrifice outlet (Feeder works fine) and then proceed with the kill from there.

Now, why would you do this in a Defense of the Heart deck? What makes this better than the current Hulk versions out there, for instance, Entomb Hulk or Doug Linn's new Counterbalance Hulk build? For one, the only time that DotH relies on the graveyard is in comboing. You can wait for an answer to graveyard hate before playing Defense. Second, you need far fewer support cards. You just need Heart and Forbidden Orchard to make the deck work for you. You can take your time in finding your pieces, using EOT Crop Rotation to power out an Orchard, and using Intuition/Brainstorm/Gifts packages to find the Defense. Moreover, the only spell that can be countered in the whole combo is Defense itself. Forcing your opponent to just counter Defense is far better than giving them the chance to counter both Entomb and Footsteps/Necromancy. Yes, this deck cannot combo at instant speed. But neither can the current Entomb Hulk builds out there.

It gets even better in games 2 and 3. Keep the Hulk combo in, but add in one or two standard, run of the mill monsters, like the afore mentioned Akroma and Inkwell. Or even Iona and Painter, as Roman Candle said. Now your opponent's graveyard hate that they invariably bring in is useless to stop the game ending combo.

Perhaps Hulk is not the best way to go in regards to the Defense of the Heart deck. But it seems quite viable on the surface. Indeed Defense is BETTER than Oath in this regard. Defense allows you to get the Hulk combo. Oath would not, at least, not on its own, or not in one turn. It is at the least an interesting idea meriting consideration.

-ktkenshinx-

[Roman Candle]

I generally like the idea of Defense of the Heart and this deck, in spite of its weaknesses. With the continuing rise of Zoo, not to mention Merfolk and, to a lesser extent, Aggro Loam, it is likely that your opponent will trigger the Defense for you.
The big advantage that Defense has over Oath is that you can choose which creatures you are getting. This seems obvious, but let me elaborate. In a Defense based deck, it is foolish to just have big, random fatties like Akroma, Inkwell, Sphinx, etc. They are powerful, yes, but they do not fully take advantage of the card. The ability to seek out two specific creatures means that you should look not for big hitters, but comboing creatures.
I feel fairly cheesy asking this, but for the sake of deck development, I will anyway: have you considered a Hulk kill?

You can use Defense to get a Hulk and a sacrifice outlet (Feeder works fine) and then proceed with the kill from there.

Now, why would you do this in a Defense of the Heart deck? What makes this better than the current Hulk versions out there, for instance, Entomb Hulk or Doug Linn's new Counterbalance Hulk build? For one, the only time that DotH relies on the graveyard is in comboing. You can wait for an answer to graveyard hate before playing Defense. Second, you need far fewer support cards. You just need Heart and Forbidden Orchard to make the deck work for you. You can take your time in finding your pieces, using EOT Crop Rotation to power out an Orchard, and using Intuition/Brainstorm/Gifts packages to find the Defense. Moreover, the only spell that can be countered in the whole combo is Defense itself. Forcing your opponent to just counter Defense is far better than giving them the chance to counter both Entomb and Footsteps/Necromancy. Yes, this deck cannot combo at instant speed. But neither can the current Entomb Hulk builds out there.

It gets even better in games 2 and 3. Keep the Hulk combo in, but add in one or two standard, run of the mill monsters, like the afore mentioned Akroma and Inkwell. Or even Iona and Painter, as Roman Candle said. Now your opponent's graveyard hate that they invariably bring in is useless to stop the game ending combo.

Perhaps Hulk is not the best way to go in regards to the Defense of the Heart deck. But it seems quite viable on the surface. Indeed Defense is BETTER than Oath in this regard. Defense allows you to get the Hulk combo. Oath would not, at least, not on its own, or not in one turn. It is at the least an interesting idea meriting consideration.

-ktkenshinx-

A Hulk kill seems like it takes up more slots than Iona + Painter and is infinitely more vulnerable to everything.

[from Cairo]

A Hulk kill seems like it takes up more slots than Iona + Painter and is infinitely more vulnerable to everything.

Truth. It seems like a waste of space and opens one up to more chances at being disrupted. I see no benefit.

[ktkenshinx]

A Hulk kill seems like it takes up more slots than Iona + Painter and is infinitely more vulnerable to everything.
That's quite a hyperbolic statement there. Let's actually look at the difference in a bit more detail. Everyone knows what Hulk is vulnerable to: removal and graveyard hate. But what does Hulk handle that Iona and Painter cannot do anything about?

1. Lands!
2. Merfolk, especially with Aether Vial. Doubly so with Lord of Atlantis in the picture.
3. Zoo, especially if you are already at a low life total.
4. Dredge.

Those are some serious weaknesses, especially given the relative popularity of these decks.

You will notice I did not say here, or in my previous post, that Iona and Painter are bad. They are an excellent pair and can complement a Hulk based DotH strategy. Similarly, you could phrase that as Hulk complementing an Iona and Painter win. To dismiss Hulk because it is "infinitely more vulnerable to everything" and because it takes up more slots just seems a bit too exaggerated for my tastes, especially when, as has been demonstrated, Iona and Painter are not without sizable weaknesses of their own. The different strategies can, and should, be compared, but that should be done with analysis, not hyperbole.

-ktkenshinx-

[Shai tan teh reaper]

That's quite a hyperbolic statement there. Let's actually look at the difference in a bit more detail. Everyone knows what Hulk is vulnerable to: removal and graveyard hate. But what does Hulk handle that Iona and Painter cannot do anything about?

1. Lands!
2. Merfolk, especially with Aether Vial. Doubly so with Lord of Atlantis in the picture.
3. Zoo, especially if you are already at a low life total.
4. Dredge.

Those are some serious weaknesses, especially given the relative popularity of these decks.

You will notice I did not say here, or in my previous post, that Iona and Painter are bad. They are an excellent pair and can complement a Hulk based DotH strategy. Similarly, you could phrase that as Hulk complementing an Iona and Painter win. To dismiss Hulk because it is "infinitely more vulnerable to everything" and because it takes up more slots just seems a bit too exaggerated for my tastes, especially when, as has been demonstrated, Iona and Painter are not without sizable weaknesses of their own. The different strategies can, and should, be compared, but that should be done with analysis, not hyperbole.

-ktkenshinx-

You bring up a point in the times combo helps and iona dose not with that said iona has been more than amazing for me. but i have been leaning more and more towards combo, but may i ask why hulk combo over kiki-jiki and pestermite? hulk needs 3spots (correct me if i'm wrong there) and needs grave kiki/mite combo dose not need grave and only 2 MD slots, i understand what your saying when you say that one slot is not huge deal if the benefits out way it but it is nice and i don't see at this point hulk > kiki. I will be testing the deck as -1tyrant -1archangel -1sphinx +1kiki +1mite +free slot in it's place, i do believe at least in theory is stronger than past builds. just for justifying sake i would like to again show my reasoning for the critter set i have been running up until now it goes normally in this way

counter top decks/ threash = iona shpinx
iona shuts down counters are removal wial the sphinx is way more then those decks can handle the ability to gain up to 12life if overwhelming

aggro = iona archangel
iona agian stops burn/removal/beaters wial the archangel soaks up the rest of the critters and burn out on field (burn in the cases iona names non red)

control decks = iona archangel/shinx
iona is just crushing against control, the other critter is normally irrelevant in this case but if you fear removal archangel and if you don't sphinx

combo = iona shinx
iona is win hear sphinx is just in case of wipe away he provides life gain to push you hopefully out of tendrils reach, but playing critters to DotH for to beat combo is normally a lost cause way to slow (ichorid for DotH purpose counts as aggro not combo)

that was my original logic, but as you can see tyrant (i figured his bounce would help vs random enchantment/artifacts and he combos nicely with iona but it never came up) never shows up and i do not believe the addition of kiki/mite will hurt any of these match ups actually i assume quite the opposite, i assume only testing and time will tell. what do you guys think about my logic hear? and thx for all the comments/debating after the first few post i did not think a was going to get any help :)

[ktkenshinx]

There are two advantages that Hulk has over Kiki/Mite. One is that you don't need to attack. The only place where I see this as being important is the Stax matchup, and even then, only in certain builds where Ghostly Prison and Windborne Muse are present.

The second problem is speed. Consider a scenario where your opponent has removal and you do not have a counterspell available (if you have one in hand, then there is no material difference in the combos). If you activate Kiki and the opponent kills him in response (or Mite I suppose), then you are foiled on the spot. Same obviously goes for removal targeting Feeder. The difference, however, is you can try to activate the Hulk combo at any time for the immediate win. This is quite strong, as you can do it when your opponent is tapped out. You can also do it with Kiki and Mite, but you cannot use your newfound army until a turn later. This can be problematic if Echoing Truth, Engineered Explosives, Maelstrom Pulse, or Pernicious Deed show up in the following turn.

Finally, the DotH Hulk combo does not need Feeder to be the sacrifice outlet. Instead, you can use far more resilient bad boys. I am talking about Devouring Strossus. He's immune to burn. He's immune to all removal that mentions "nonblack" only. The only thing that stops him is bounce (which is a problem with both the Kiki/Mite route and the Hulk route) and Swords...which is also a problem with both. This makes your Hulk win far more resilient than the Carrion Feeder dependent Hulk win.

Just some things to consider.

-ktkenshinx-

[Shai tan teh reaper]

There are two advantages that Hulk has over Kiki/Mite. One is that you don't need to attack. The only place where I see this as being important is the Stax matchup, and even then, only in certain builds where Ghostly Prison and Windborne Muse are present.

The second problem is speed. Consider a scenario where your opponent has removal and you do not have a counterspell available (if you have one in hand, then there is no material difference in the combos). If you activate Kiki and the opponent kills him in response (or Mite I suppose), then you are foiled on the spot. Same obviously goes for removal targeting Feeder. The difference, however, is you can try to activate the Hulk combo at any time for the immediate win. This is quite strong, as you can do it when your opponent is tapped out. You can also do it with Kiki and Mite, but you cannot use your newfound army until a turn later. This can be problematic if Echoing Truth, Engineered Explosives, Maelstrom Pulse, or Pernicious Deed show up in the following turn.

Finally, the DotH Hulk combo does not need Feeder to be the sacrifice outlet. Instead, you can use far more resilient bad boys. I am talking about Devouring Strossus. He's immune to burn. He's immune to all removal that mentions "nonblack" only. The only thing that stops him is bounce (which is a problem with both the Kiki/Mite route and the Hulk route) and Swords...which is also a problem with both. This makes your Hulk win far more resilient than the Carrion Feeder dependent Hulk win.

Just some things to consider.

-ktkenshinx-

well put, extremely good points so your suggesting hulk feeder/sac critter and mogg fanatic? the stax match is not i big deal are at least has not been only played a few times but that fact that we have combo (i count DotH in this case even tho at the time i could not get "combo" critters) and counters and most importantly deed witch is back breaking in this match up. I still, tho with your argument might be ignorant of me, fear the removal especially with iona/archangel as other DotH option less than grav hate. the EE's DeeD's echoing truth"s and others are a problem because they can steal tempo be killing tokens and just plane stopping DotH witch at this point i'am more concerned with then there interaction with the tings i get with DotH . I am in no way saying that kiki/mite is superior at this point you might be completely correct that hulk > kiki is right call, i am testing a odd kiki version right now and under the assumption that testing will help me make the call for one combo are the other (are combo version at all)

i will post the combo version i have been playing with as of now, i said it was odd before because i changed quite a bit to try and help some of the problems i have been having and just to see if this new direction is viable (and hopefully more resilient).

// Lands
1 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Underground Sea
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [A] Tundra
1 [A] Swamp (2)
2 [A] Island (2)
1 [A] Plains (2)
1 [A] Forest (2)

// Creatures
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 [UD] Academy Rector
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [LRW] Pestermite
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel

// Spells
4 [UL] Defense of the Heart
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [A] Regrowth
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [AP] Fire/Ice
1 [LG] Moat
1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
2 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [A] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [UL] Crop Rotation
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout

there is a free sb slot just like all my list the sb had been vary much hit are miss from game to game so i cut Burning despite the 50-50 percent of games it was dead are amazing. i added AK to try and help smooth out the mana curve i hated spending so many turns doing nothing and this seemed to fit nicely, only even remotely good draw i could find for 2-3cc i thought about impulse but i think the deck has plenty of tutor/2-3 of"s. i all so went back to spell pierce over spell snare to try and counter stifle/FoW/and other random problematic cards. i did end up keeping the archangel because burn could still be a problem for either combo plus if i draw kiki problems can happen, i think archangel is much better call then body snatcher are some such thing to help in case of drawing kiki are some relevant other scenarios. Any comments/concerns on anything plz ask :)

and ktkenshinx thx for your insights/thoughts your posts have been of extra value to my reasoning on cards for this deck

[Mystical_Jackass]

Turn 5 is just way too long. What are you gonna do about the board threats too. Whatever two creatures, to me it's gotta be an instant "I win" otherwise it seems like a bad reanimator. And what if you draw the Iona or w/e :{

Maybe you should make this more of a Tempo Thresh, go for the win, and have this as a fallback plan. Basing your whole win on one card seems fail all the way through, it's gonna get countered or sealed or grip'd and you have zero way to win then. That's just my immediate reaction scrutinizing your list, unless this is just a fun "haha I got you" kinda deck

EDIT: Also, I'd take out the Academy Rector. I see what you're trying to do but she's too expensive and spells like wasteland, sinkhole/smallpox, daze, stp, PtE are gonna make it even worse for you to pull her off, cabal therapy by then is just a day late dollar short ya know especially when they swords in response lol.

[Roman Candle]

EDIT: Also, I'd take out the Academy Rector. I see what you're trying to do but she's too expensive and spells like wasteland, sinkhole/smallpox, daze, stp, PtE are gonna make it even worse for you to pull her off, cabal therapy by then is just a day late dollar short ya know especially when they swords in response lol.

You can flashback Therapy on priority when Rector comes into play and the opponent won't have a chance to StP or PtE it.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

Turn 5 is just way too long. What are you gonna do about the board threats too. Whatever two creatures, to me it's gotta be an instant "I win" otherwise it seems like a bad reanimator. And what if you draw the Iona or w/e :{

Maybe you should make this more of a Tempo Thresh, go for the win, and have this as a fallback plan. Basing your whole win on one card seems fail all the way through, it's gonna get countered or sealed or grip'd and you have zero way to win then. That's just my immediate reaction scrutinizing your list, unless this is just a fun "haha I got you" kinda deck

EDIT: Also, I'd take out the Academy Rector. I see what you're trying to do but she's too expensive and spells like wasteland, sinkhole/smallpox, daze, stp, PtE are gonna make it even worse for you to pull her off, cabal therapy by then is just a day late dollar short ya know especially when they swords in response lol.

the reason i run 4 critters instead of say 2 for DotH is just in case i draw one. and trust me if anyone has a better idea there im all ears because drawing one and then not finding a brainstorm can be painful. saying that just because i have DotH to win makes the deck bad doesn't really seam like a fair assessment to me, saying they can be killed are countered well what can't? few combo-ish type decks can handle there spells getting countered, if Ad Nuesem in ANT gets countered there in pretty bad shape. i realize the comparison is not quite the same but my point is im trying to find the right balance of counters/discard, tutors/draw, and critters/board control to make the deck maybe like Solidarity not the best deck but still defiantly a threat. with rector normally you have a therapy in the grav so removal is not a problem. rector is not the best card in the deck but it has been a very solid 2 of slot for me the ability to fetch DotH are Moat is huge, some decks fold to a moat and getting DotH is even better when you kno it isn't your only option.

[Mystical_Jackass]

the reason i run 4 critters instead of say 2 for DotH is just in case i draw one. and trust me if anyone has a better idea there im all ears because drawing one and then not finding a brainstorm can be painful. saying that just because i have DotH to win makes the deck bad doesn't really seam like a fair assessment to me, saying they can be killed are countered well what can't?

You're totally right about that. Deffinitely not trying to say it's "bad 'cause stuff can happen", but what I was getting at is how 100% reliant on the combo the deck is... it's too situational. for 1) it's slow with no accel, and 2) it revolves around everything going your way... nothing getting removed/destroyed and opponent having at least 3 creatures out and not wasting your lands to hinder you moreso, etc


few combo-ish type decks can handle there spells getting countered, if Ad Nuesem in ANT gets countered there in pretty bad shape
ANT wins within a turn or two unless countered, and even so it has ways around it. This deck has to get to turn 5 and even then isn't a guarantee 'cause they might just outrace you for win in damage.


rector is not the best card in the deck but it has been a very solid 2 of slot for me the ability to fetch DotH are Moat is huge, some decks fold to a moat and getting DotH is even better when you kno it isn't your only option.

Looking at most Decks to Beat, most aren't gonna fold to a single Moat almost all have ways around it maindeck and those that don't are gonna board in SB and shut you down.

Basically all I'm getting at is you should design a build that can straightup win on its own, then use that as another win cond such as GB Dark Depths, MGCA, etc. so your not completely shut down from hate, whether you build it with an Enchantress shell, Tempo Thresh with backup, throw in Goyfs & Stalkers, something

[ktkenshinx]

Turn 5 is just way too long. What are you gonna do about the board threats too. Whatever two creatures, to me it's gotta be an instant "I win" otherwise it seems like a bad reanimator. And what if you draw the Iona or w/e :{

Maybe you should make this more of a Tempo Thresh, go for the win, and have this as a fallback plan. Basing your whole win on one card seems fail all the way through, it's gonna get countered or sealed or grip'd and you have zero way to win then. That's just my immediate reaction scrutinizing your list, unless this is just a fun "haha I got you" kinda deck


This is essentially the classic response to any new deck in any format. Naysayers spout off all the supposed weaknesses, all of the countless threats rallied against the deck, and all of its shortcomings when compared to established decks in the format. Most of it is, of course, total nonsense. Some quotes in particular stand out as ridiculous and merit pointed examination.


Turn 5 is just way too long.
Many games go on far longer than Turn 5. Ever played against Counter Top? Or a Tempo Thresh mirror? Sure some matches are shorter, but turn 5+ wins are not a problem if the deck is designed to succeed in the control role. This deck is designed to do so, or at least, that is the intent behind the design so far.


What are you gonna do about the board threats too.
This logic can be leveled against any deck. I can imagine this comment being leveled against Hulk Flash, Dredge, Lands, etc: "What are you gonna do about Leyline/Crypt/Price of Progress/etc. too." It is a ridiculous criticism to say that a deck is bad because it has weaknesses to sideboarded cards. That's the point of a sideboard. To expose weaknesses. The other point of a sideboard, as this deck's sideboard should follow, is to further protect exposed weaknesses.


Basing your whole win on one card seems fail all the way through, it's gonna get countered or sealed or grip'd and you have zero way to win then.
Thus, Illusions/Donate was a bad deck. So was Cocoa Pebbles. So was Aluren. So was Oath. So was Dragon. So were dozens of other highly, historically successful decks that relied on one or two cards to win. Clearly that is a nonsensical allegation. Now, I admit that DotH is not as powerful as some of the one/two card combos that made these previously mentioned decks successful. But is it powerful ENOUGH to succeed? That merits testing and discussion, not immediate dismissal on unfounded grounds.

I also must turn to this comment

Basically all I'm getting at is you should design a build that can straightup win on its own, then use that as another win cond such as GB Dark Depths, MGCA, etc. so your not completely shut down from hate
I must stress again that combo decks should be combo decks. They should have a purpose and do that purpose, not dilute it with other stuff. Accelerate/Protect/Find a combo; that is what a deck must do. DotH should protect and find its combo, not add other stuff just in case the combo does not pan out. That leaves the deck a jack of all trades, master of none; an impotent hybrid incapable of doing either job well.

With that out of the way, let's turn back to the deck itself.

What about Scroll Rack? It helps you find your combo pieces, it can be used at instant speed, it's cheap in and of itself to cast, and it gets monsters in your hand back into your library. Coupled with Brainstorm, this would give you a much more reliable mechanism of preventing your key creatures from getting stuck in your hand.

Then there is the issue of protecting DotH. This is, as you say, a larger problem than just protecting the creatures themselves. To that end, the best colors for your deck to run are unquestionably Blue and Black for countermagic and discard respectively. Once Defense gets into play, you should win on the subsequent turn anyway, so you do not need to worry about cards like Moat, Firespout, Pyroclasm, etc; you just need to hold out long enough to get a Defense activation.

Your recent decklist is trying to do too many things. You have way too many colors, and way too many varied threats. The deck must be more focused. Here is what I view as the core of the deck:

4 Defense of the Heart
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gifts/Intuition

From there you can add Dazes, Spell Pierces, Scroll Racks, and such to your heart's content. But those cards are really critical to this deck's ability to succeed. Duress is especially important because it proactively eliminates threats, as opposed to reactive threat removal like FoW. Crop Rotation is equally important, both for finding Orchard, and in synergy with Scroll Rack for a cheap shuffle effect. Finally, Gifts and Intuition are the best instant speed methods of reliably finding your cards.

-ktkenshinx-

[Shai tan teh reaper]

You're totally right about that. Deffinitely not trying to say it's "bad 'cause stuff can happen", but what I was getting at is how 100% reliant on the combo the deck is... it's too situational. for 1) it's slow with no accel, and 2) it revolves around everything going your way... nothing getting removed/destroyed and opponent having at least 3 creatures out and not wasting your lands to hinder you moreso, etc


ANT wins within a turn or two unless countered, and even so it has ways around it. This deck has to get to turn 5 and even then isn't a guarantee 'cause they might just outrace you for win in damage.



Looking at most Decks to Beat, most aren't gonna fold to a single Moat almost all have ways around it maindeck and those that don't are gonna board in SB and shut you down.

Basically all I'm getting at is you should design a build that can straightup win on its own, then use that as another win cond such as GB Dark Depths, MGCA, etc. so your not completely shut down from hate, whether you build it with an Enchantress shell, Tempo Thresh with backup, throw in Goyfs & Stalkers, something

your points are well taken but from just playing the deck this hasn't seemed to be a problem. i normally have DotH hit safely i have plenty of counters/discard/rector/other DotH to play if they have an answer. The moat has been a big problem even for decks with sideboard for them because the same things you board to try and stop DotH stop moat and like i said with discard and counters normally it is just too much for them to handle. as for having it as the only way to win even tho it hasn't been i big deal i still see your point, any ideas on how to keep the deck still going but slide a little bit away from control and more towards rock type cards? more critters and board control less spell pierce and AK?

[Shai tan teh reaper]

Then there is the issue of protecting DotH. This is, as you say, a larger problem than just protecting the creatures themselves. To that end, the best colors for your deck to run are unquestionably Blue and Black for countermagic and discard respectively. Once Defense gets into play, you should win on the subsequent turn anyway, so you do not need to worry about cards like Moat, Firespout, Pyroclasm, etc; you just need to hold out long enough to get a Defense activation.

Your recent decklist is trying to do too many things. You have way too many colors, and way too many varied threats. The deck must be more focused. Here is what I view as the core of the deck:

4 Defense of the Heart
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Gifts/Intuition

From there you can add Dazes, Spell Pierces, Scroll Racks, and such to your heart's content. But those cards are really critical to this deck's ability to succeed. Duress is especially important because it proactively eliminates threats, as opposed to reactive threat removal like FoW. Crop Rotation is equally important, both for finding Orchard, and in synergy with Scroll Rack for a cheap shuffle effect. Finally, Gifts and Intuition are the best instant speed methods of reliably finding your cards.

-ktkenshinx-

agree with the deck being to unfocused but i do not agree that the one moat for rector and rector itself is out of place. i have been vary pleased with the testing so far with rector it is an extra tutor for DotH and has moat as back up just in case. crop rotation i like the card but it is just so bad so often the fact that im losing hand advantage to find a nonbasic land can be really problematic but i still believe 2-3 would be very good in the deck. duress and gifts/intuition are also both vary important to find what you need and i will be improving the amount of gifts/intuitions in my deck, but as far as duress goes i have therapy witch i feel is fine. Do you feel that even cards like DeeD should be cut? i know deed helps nothing to getting DotH to resolve but it has been extremely helpful for staying alive long enough to do so, just curious. thx

[Mystical_Jackass]

This is essentially the classic response to any new deck in any format. Naysayers spout off all the supposed weaknesses, all of the countless threats rallied against the deck, and all of its shortcomings when compared to established decks in the format. Most of it is, of course, total nonsense. Some quotes in particular stand out as ridiculous and merit pointed examination.

I'm not trying to be a naysayer toward the build itself, since I like the idea but I do think that the list itself looked kinda fragile and slow to pull off. Protecting the combo with, say... Reanimator on turn2 is easier than turn4-5 here since every following turn's gonna make it more difficult. No need to be haughty about it, considering its a new build and we both have zero experience with the build, so I don't see why you have to denegrate me.



This logic can be leveled against any deck. I can imagine this comment being leveled against Hulk Flash, Dredge, Lands, etc: "What are you gonna do about Leyline/Crypt/Price of Progress/etc. too." It is a ridiculous criticism to say that a deck is bad because it has weaknesses to sideboarded cards. That's the point of a sideboard. To expose weaknesses. The other point of a sideboard, as this deck's sideboard should follow, is to further protect exposed weaknesses.

Again, misunderstood. I never brought up SB, you did. I was more talking about aggro decks like Zoo or gobs that'll sneak creatures through. Say you got Thoctar & goyf on board or quite a few gobs with Siege Gang + vial, can still be a threat.


Thus, Illusions/Donate was a bad deck. So was Cocoa Pebbles. So was Aluren. So was Oath. So was Dragon. So were dozens of other highly, historically successful decks that relied on one or two cards to win. Clearly that is a nonsensical allegation. Now, I admit that DotH is not as powerful as some of the one/two card combos that made these previously mentioned decks successful. But is it powerful ENOUGH to succeed? That merits testing and discussion, not immediate dismissal on unfounded grounds.

I also must turn to this comment

I WASN'T dismissing on "unfounded grounds", what are you talking about? Your right, at least you're being realistic here at the end admitting it's not as powerful because it relies on more situationalness than those... opponent has to have 3 creatures as well as having to wait for your upkeep to work and no playable creatures till turn4 making you more fragile to waste. I shouldn't knock this deck down prematurely, your right, but your putting it on a pedistal even comparing a janky combo like this to those


I must stress again that combo decks should be combo decks. They should have a purpose and do that purpose, not dilute it with other stuff. Accelerate/Protect/Find a combo; that is what a deck must do. DotH should protect and find its combo, not add other stuff just in case the combo does not pan out. That leaves the deck a jack of all trades, master of none; an impotent hybrid incapable of doing either job well.

I disagree. Decks like ANT & Enchantress have LIMITATIONS in their theme that hinder using those other spells though, like... low converted mana costs and card type synergy, this deck's combo like Mono Green Chalice Aggro (NO-->Proj) or GB Dark Depths is just a 1-2 card combo that can easily allow other creatures and spells to win with to fall back on.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

@ Mystical_Jackass i can't speak for him but i don't believe ktkenshinx was trying to belittle you, but i dk. But i do understand your concerns and much appreciate your thoughts.

just to show where testing has brought me resonantly, i tested crop rotaoin and it was ok at best finding orchards is good but using mana and loosing a card for it was annoying at times (making wastelands miss for it is priceless tho lol). i also have been running kiki combo and it has been so-so not any better are worse then sphinx/tyrant so far. so i took the crop's out and went back to dark ritual to try and give the deck more speed since it has a pretty steady amount of for drops that just need one color to cast. i cut AK it was great sometimes and did really help smooth the deck out so i'll keep it in mind but just did to little in early-mid game and by the time it really started to become a threat i had DotH/Rector/Gifts mana and didn't really need it anyways. so I'm on a list that is really going for an semi early-mid game push for the win. as side note is my posting updated list an annoyance to you guys for taking up a lot of room are do you like seeing where I'm at and where I'm going?


// Lands
1 [B] Volcanic Island
4 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Underground Sea
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [A] Tundra
1 [A] Swamp (2)
2 [A] Island (2)
1 [A] Plains (2)
1 [A] Forest (2)

// Creatures
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 [UD] Academy Rector
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [LRW] Pestermite
1 [ALA] Empyrial Archangel

// Spells
4 [UL] Defense of the Heart
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [AP] Fire/Ice
1 [LG] Moat
1 [DIS] Crime/Punishment
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
1 [A] Regrowth
2 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
3 [A] Dark Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UL] Crop Rotation
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [A] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [IN] Fact or Fiction
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [SHM] Firespout

[ktkenshinx]

I'm not trying to be a naysayer toward the build itself, since I like the idea but I do think that the list itself looked kinda fragile and slow to pull off. Protecting the combo with, say... Reanimator on turn2 is easier than turn4-5 here since every following turn's gonna make it more difficult. No need to be haughty about it, considering its a new build and we both have zero experience with the build, so I don't see why you have to denegrate me.
You claim that you do not have anything against the build itself, but I must point towards your initial comments towards the deck. Basing a deck on this card is "fail all the way through"; this does not strike me as a constructive comment. Saying that the deck is fragile and slow is one criticism, and it is the one that you make here. Saying it is "fail all the way through", as you did earlier, does not strike me as helpful criticism.

Again, misunderstood. I never brought up SB, you did. I was more talking about aggro decks like Zoo or gobs that'll sneak creatures through. Say you got Thoctar & goyf on board or quite a few gobs with Siege Gang + vial, can still be a threat.
The direct quote from your post was "What are you gonna do about the board threats too." For the most part, in my experience, "board threats" refers to threats from a sideboard. This is what you brought up and I responded to. I am not sure how "board threats" relate to "aggro decks like Zoo or gobs" and I would love to hear clarification on that point.

I WASN'T dismissing on "unfounded grounds", what are you talking about? Your right, at least you're being realistic here at the end admitting it's not as powerful because it relies on more situationalness than those... opponent has to have 3 creatures as well as having to wait for your upkeep to work and no playable creatures till turn4 making you more fragile to waste. I shouldn't knock this deck down prematurely, your right, but your putting it on a pedistal even comparing a janky combo like this to those
I am not putting the deck on a pedestal. I am merely saying that just because DotH relies on a 2 card combo, however "janky" you may call it, is not reason on its own to disqualify the deck. What makes a combo janky? What makes a deck unviable? There are many qualities that come to mind, and DotH certainly does not lack across the board.

I admitted that DotH was situational. But I am fully unwilling to say that it is too situational to be a viable deck. What are its limitations?
1) 4 CC enchantment. On the expensive side of win conditions, especially given its other limitations.
2) Requires the opponent to have 3 creatures. Not all decks even use 3 creatures in their deck.
3) Does not work until the beginning of your upkeep. Gives your opponent 1.5 turns to deal with the threat.
4) Green card. Green does not have a lot of depth in the disruption or tutor department, which forces you to run at LEAST one other color. 2 is probably preferable.

These are the limitations. They are not crippling. For instance, Oath of Druids itself, which no one will argue is a bad card, is also green, and also requires a beginning of your upkeep trigger. It does not require the opponent to have 3 creatures. It does not cost 4. But it lets you win immediately. That is a huge advantage on its own.

As to the deck itself, I feel a lot of it is all over the place. For instance, you are currently using Gifts as your main search engine. But your only recursion cards are Regrowth and Crime/Punishment. If your opponent gives you C/P and your fourth card, putting Regrowth and DotH in the yard, then you are in trouble. Now you have to cast a 5 CC sorcery AND a 4 CC enchantment. That is extremely slow. That opens the deck up to the criticisms of too much slowness and fragility. Even just using Intuition would be better.

Then there is the Moat question. What scenarios would you get Moat that you would not get DotH? Especially running a combo win package? Moreover, considering that you are only running 2 Academy Rector's, how can you reliably get a Moat in play when you could not also get a DotH in play?

The solution here, as I see it, is more Rector. Rector/Therapy is a highly abusive way of getting DotH into play without worrying about counters; they can't kill the Rector in response to Therapy, because you have priority for the casting of the spell. Yes, you have to worry about the DotH getting killed, or the opponent not having three creatures. But you don't have to worry about discard mechanics or countermagic, at least not directed at DotH itself.

Just some random thoughts for now. I am currently testing a build (Admittedly in Workstation, which is not my preferable mode of testing) and will report back when I have a bit more data.

-ktkenshinx-

[Shai tan teh reaper]

As to the deck itself, I feel a lot of it is all over the place. For instance, you are currently using Gifts as your main search engine. But your only recursion cards are Regrowth and Crime/Punishment. If your opponent gives you C/P and your fourth card, putting Regrowth and DotH in the yard, then you are in trouble. Now you have to cast a 5 CC sorcery AND a 4 CC enchantment. That is extremely slow. That opens the deck up to the criticisms of too much slowness and fragility. Even just using Intuition would be better.

Then there is the Moat question. What scenarios would you get Moat that you would not get DotH? Especially running a combo win package? Moreover, considering that you are only running 2 Academy Rector's, how can you reliably get a Moat in play when you could not also get a DotH in play?

The solution here, as I see it, is more Rector. Rector/Therapy is a highly abusive way of getting DotH into play without worrying about counters; they can't kill the Rector in response to Therapy, because you have priority for the casting of the spell. Yes, you have to worry about the DotH getting killed, or the opponent not having three creatures. But you don't have to worry about discard mechanics or countermagic, at least not directed at DotH itself.

Just some random thoughts for now. I am currently testing a build (Admittedly in Workstation, which is not my preferable mode of testing) and will report back when I have a bit more data.

-ktkenshinx-

my gifts staxs are normally rector,Doth,Regrowth,Therapy/Orchard i actually cut the C//P and went down to 3 therapy's and added 2 ponders to try and find cards more efficiently. im still debating on switch to intuition but i just don't see much benefit in that as of now one mana cheaper but doesn't provide the card advantage that is critical. I find moat either threw rector (80% of the time) and i can also cunning wish for E.tutor and grab it, as i said with that slot tho that's a card in the deck that has come in handy quite a bit and never really been i problem of drawing it and being dead are finding a better use of the slot i like it and it has done me good but if someone ran the deck and cut it for something different i wouldn't make that call but i would not say it's a bad one either. Currently i have also taken the combo critters back out they, in my limited tested i should at at least tho, have not won me a game where i would not have won otherwise and have lost me a few already where having sphinx/tyrant back in. but im still not sold on tyrant he seems under powered in this deck he has won me at least 2 games that with any other critter i can think of a would have lost. you said more rectors are needed and i think i agree with you on this point i think a full set would put to much stress on the curve but running 2 there has been a few times when i really would like to see them more often so i will probably try and find spot for third. also forgot to add one more argument for moat at least three times so far wail running combo version i had DotH trigger and was overwhelmed and got a rector with DotH to sac and find moat, doesn't happen often where you trigger DotH and still know there hand can stop you but sometimes DotH fetching Iona/are other fat + rector sac into moat pulls out win (i have had this happen against ichorid and standstills).

[thefreakaccident]

I don't feel like getting too deep into discussion, but this is a list i like for Doth:

lands//19
4 forbidden orchard
4 tundra
4 tropical island
4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
1 island

creatures//8
4 tarmogoyf
1 kiki-jiki mirror breaker
3 pestermite

spells//33
4 brainstorm
4 sensei's divining top
3 ponder
4 daze
4 force of will
3 defense of the heart
2 oblivion ring
4 counterbalance
3 enlightened tutor
2 swords to plowshares

sideboard//
1 replenish (j/k not included in numbers)
4 relic of progenitus
2 krosan grip
2 engineered explosives
2 propaganda
2 ghostly prison
3 spell pierce

But i suppose you could also include some sort of good situational critters like qasali pridemage and rhox war monk in place of something... To provide supplementary sideboard slots as well as opening up a possible "board into threshold" scheme, as you could sideboard out combo pieces for sideboard slots and one of the aforementioned critters.

[Mystical_Jackass]

You claim that you do not have anything against the build itself, but I must point towards your initial comments towards the deck. Basing a deck on this card is "fail all the way through"; this does not strike me as a constructive comment. Saying that the deck is fragile and slow is one criticism, and it is the one that you make here. Saying it is "fail all the way through", as you did earlier, does not strike me as helpful criticism.


I apologize, it was just a figure of speech being dramatic and all. Although, I don't know why I'm apologizing to you, nor do I understand why you waste your time taking this thread upon yourself being so defensive, the OP didn't even have a problem dude...

When I said board I meant creatures on the board--on the board, I didn't mean to confuse that with sideboard my bad for the confusion.

I would respond more, but you'd probably just write another 8 paragraph anecdote. I'm sorry, your responses are so wordy, I realize you're trying to exercise your gramatical skills to sound epicurean but this debate is annoying me and so is your haughtiness.

@Thefreakaccident

I like that list, in a counterbalance shell. That seems like a pretty fair way of going about it, and sorta what I was getting at in my rants lol

[dahcmai]

Isn't there a Swords variant that puts a token into play on their side? I forget if it was worthy of playing or not or even the name, but I could swear there was one. Might be worth running.

[Float4WeldSlaver]

Isn't there a Swords variant that puts a token into play on their side? I forget if it was worthy of playing or not or even the name, but I could swear there was one. Might be worth running.

There's Crib Swap, which probably costs too much.

Funeral Pyre might not be good enough either, but it does multitask in this deck. Graveyard hate + creature donation.

[ktkenshinx]

Isn't there a Swords variant that puts a token into play on their side? I forget if it was worthy of playing or not or even the name, but I could swear there was one. Might be worth running.
I have been testing these token-generating removal spells for the deck with some success. After all, Swords and Path to Exile are counter-productive towards our strategy of keeping 3 creatures in play. If the opponent is so kind as to leave them in play, why would we want to get rid of them and go through all the Forbidden Orchard related trouble of making them ourselves?
I found that Crib Swap was too expensive. So was Afterlife, and that card does not even remove the creature from the game.
Pongify, however, had interesting results. 1 mana removal that was on color for the deck's main color. Sadly, it does use the graveyard instead of exiling the target, but that is not always a problem. The second issue that might come to mind is the 3/3 beating ape that comes into play. Most of the time, you are removing a threat capable of dealing way more than 3 damage. In my testing, I pongifyied only creatures that had 3+ power, with a few lone exceptions (a Quasali Pridemage, for instance). In a pinch it also gives you a way to kill your own Rector, if that is absolutely necessary.

I also tried a counterbalance shell, but found one problem to be consistently coming up in testing. Counterbalance just is not a very good deck anymore. If you do not believe me, just take a look at its performance in the last few months. It hasn't won a tournament in months, to my knowledge, and has only placed in about 20-30 events since the summer. Compare this to the other Legacy staple decks, which have had dozens and dozens of top 8 showings in the same time period. It also does not seem to be a matter of popularity ("counterbalance just is not as popular so it is not as frequently played"). The deck, specifically the CounterTop combo itself, has serious metagame weaknesses.

That said, there are two things I am very interested about in thefreakaccident's list.
1. You only include the combo package. How has that worked for you so far?
2. Enlightened Tutor instead of Rector as your main search mechanism. This seems particularly strong in a CounterTop shell, because it can find so many parts of the deck (including even the Oblivion Rings, if needed). Did you try out Rector and find Tutor to be better? Or generally how is Tutor working for you?

-ktkenshinx-

[Kangaxx]

@kenshinx - Do you have a list to share with us? You have me curious as to what you would consider a viable interpretation of the deck.

[Sevryn]

This is essentially the classic response to any new deck in any format. Naysayers spout off all the supposed weaknesses, all of the countless threats rallied against the deck, and all of its shortcomings when compared to established decks in the format. Most of it is, of course, total nonsense. Some quotes in particular stand out as ridiculous and merit pointed examination.


Would you rather just a pat on the back? Criticism should be the main reason new decks are posted for others to look at, and the 'supposed weaknesses' are probably the most worth discussing.

[Gocho]

I have been testing these token-generating removal spells for the deck with some success. After all, Swords and Path to Exile are counter-productive towards our strategy of keeping 3 creatures in play. If the opponent is so kind as to leave them in play, why would we want to get rid of them and go through all the Forbidden Orchard related trouble of making them ourselves?
I found that Crib Swap was too expensive. So was Afterlife, and that card does not even remove the creature from the game.
Pongify, however, had interesting results. 1 mana removal that was on color for the deck's main color. Sadly, it does use the graveyard instead of exiling the target, but that is not always a problem. The second issue that might come to mind is the 3/3 beating ape that comes into play. Most of the time, you are removing a threat capable of dealing way more than 3 damage. In my testing, I pongifyied only creatures that had 3+ power, with a few lone exceptions (a Quasali Pridemage, for instance). In a pinch it also gives you a way to kill your own Rector, if that is absolutely necessary.

I also tried a counterbalance shell, but found one problem to be consistently coming up in testing. Counterbalance just is not a very good deck anymore. If you do not believe me, just take a look at its performance in the last few months. It hasn't won a tournament in months, to my knowledge, and has only placed in about 20-30 events since the summer. Compare this to the other Legacy staple decks, which have had dozens and dozens of top 8 showings in the same time period. It also does not seem to be a matter of popularity ("counterbalance just is not as popular so it is not as frequently played"). The deck, specifically the CounterTop combo itself, has serious metagame weaknesses.

That said, there are two things I am very interested about in thefreakaccident's list.
1. You only include the combo package. How has that worked for you so far?
2. Enlightened Tutor instead of Rector as your main search mechanism. This seems particularly strong in a CounterTop shell, because it can find so many parts of the deck (including even the Oblivion Rings, if needed). Did you try out Rector and find Tutor to be better? Or generally how is Tutor working for you?

-ktkenshinx-

Didn't try Mercy Killing? You get the needed creatures to activate DotH with only one card.

[ktkenshinx]

@kenshinx - Do you have a list to share with us? You have me curious as to what you would consider a viable interpretation of the deck.
This is what I have been testing, although I immediately replaced Pongify with Mercy Killing. (full credit to Gocho)

Lands: 21
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest

Creatures: 4
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Pestermite
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Spells: 35
3 Mercy Killing
2 Moment's Peace
3 Spell Pierce
4 Defense of the Heart
3 Scroll Rack
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Impulse
3 Intuition
4 Daze
3 Crop Rotation

Sideboard: 15
SB: 2 Moment's Peace
SB: 4 Vendillion Clique
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Realm Razer
SB: 1 Mercy Killing
SB: 4 Relic of Progenitus

I ended up not going with the Rector/Therapy route because redundant countermagic was working well for me. Here are a few card explanations:

1. Sphinx of the Steel Wind
The only creature that can turn around a game on its own. Protection from red means you can just name white with Iona in most matches, securing both creatures from death. This card allows you to race Zoo intelligently. Once turn 5 hits and Iona and Sphinx come out, the game is over in your favor. They can't outrace the lifelink sphinx AND the pair of blockers, especially with no white.

2. Moment's Peace
The deck runs a ton of card draw and finding, so getting a pair of these was not hard. This buys a ton of time in any matchup that focuses on creatures. It's especially nasty because this deck does not use the yard. That means no one really boards against Moment's Peace, giving you, more or less, a two turn grace period to get your DotH up and running.

3. Scroll Rack
Combined with Intuition, Crop Rotation, Fetchlands, and Impulse, this is a powerful card finding engine, anti-discard tool, and repairman if you get creatures in your hand. Instant speed activation is particularly nice for the control deck.

4. Vendillion Clique
The best way to stop Krosan Grip. Playing DotH on turn 4? Play this at the end of the opponent's third turn. Almost guarantees defense for the Defense.

As for matchups, here is a brief rundown:
Merfolk: You have more draw than they do, so you can quickly find 2+ free counterspells to win a counter-war over the DotH. Moment's Peace buys you tons of time in this matchup. You will likely not need to get Orchard to activate DotH. Quite favorable in my testing.

Zoo: Game 1 go for the Mercy Killing on their Pridemage at turn 3 EOT. Turn 4 drop DotH. Turn 5 win. In games 2 and 3, board in the Cliques to deal with Grip, and the additional Mercy to increase consistency. Similar to Merfolk in that you probably won't need to get Orchard. If you do, only one activation should handle it. Also quite favorable owing to lack of serious disruption.

Dredge: Game 1 can be ugly. Dig for Moment's Peace as fast as possible. For games 2 and 3, the 4 Moment's Peace and 4 Relics should be enough to slow Dredge down by at least a few turns. This will give you enough time to cast DotH.

Lands: Game 1 can be extremely difficult if Glacial Chasm gets involved early. Games 2 and 3 tend to be solved with Realm Razer.

Tempo Thresh: Similar to Merfolk. All you have to worry about are the counterspells. On the bad side of things, you need at least 2 Orchard activations to get the ball rolling, more if they use Fire/Ice on their own tokens to slow you down, as happened to me a few times. Games 2 and 3 are helped by Clique immensely, especially if you can quickly follow up with a DotH.

Those are my general test results in regards to the deck.


Would you rather just a pat on the back? Criticism should be the main reason new decks are posted for others to look at, and the 'supposed weaknesses' are probably the most worth discussing.
I fully support checking out a deck for weaknesses and criticizing potential problems. But I was responding to mystical_jackass's comment that DotH can get "countered or sealed or grip'd". Those are not really specific weaknesses of the deck. I imagine that anyone who thought of playing with DotH at all considered enchantment removal and countermagic as a serious problem.

A criticism such as "the deck seems weak because it can get countered or sealed or gripped" does not really add much new information to the conversation. A criticism such as "What do you do about Annul's in game 2 and 3 against Merfolk? That increases their countermagic count to at least 11, which can be hard to beat" is specific and constructive.

-ktkenshinx-

[Jak]

4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Chrome Mox

4 Tarmogoyf
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Pestermite
1 Iona
1 Sphinx

4 Defense of the Heart

4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Impulse
3 Crop Rotation

Just thorwing this out because the deck looks awesome. I think you need Tarmogoyf. It is an alternate win condition, but most importantly it makes the opponent over extend. One Nacatl can not get by a Goyf. One Goyf can not get by a Goyf. Making them have to play more creatures seems good.

I really plan to test this a bit because it looks extremely fun. The big problem I see is postboard games. You either look to stop the hate or you transform the maindeck and take out Defenses etc.

I think I would try this as a sideboard.

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
2 Elspeth
4 Rhox War Monk

I really want the third Grip, some REBs, and EE but it transforms well into Supreme Blue

[Kangaxx]

I believe that the only way this deck would be viable is with Goyf. DotH is way too slow to rely on without setting up defenses. I don't really enjoy the whole idea of having to wait two turns to win after dropping DotH (one upkeep after resolving it and another turn to attack with an infinite horde). This is a really slow, predictable way of winning IMO.

But on a positive note, I love the idea and the deck looks very fun to play. May I suggest Wall of Blossoms and Carven Caryatid to force your opponent to overextend? :wink: It's just a thought.

[Gocho]

You don't need to wait to attack with your horde. Ther have haste.

[Kangaxx]

You don't need to wait to attack with your horde. Ther have haste.

They'll be all tapped though, I believe.

[ktkenshinx]

I believe that the only way this deck would be viable is with Goyf. DotH is way too slow to rely on without setting up defenses. I don't really enjoy the whole idea of having to wait two turns to win after dropping DotH (one upkeep after resolving it and another turn to attack with an infinite horde). This is a really slow, predictable way of winning IMO.
Forbidden Orchard means that a creature based deck does not need to overextend on its own in order to win. Either they are going to play only 1-2 creatures and try to beat you down with the small pair, holding the rest in their hand. Or they will play 3+ for the automatic Heart activation.
If they play only 1 or 2, then in most cases, all you need is a single Mercy Killing to activate Defense of the Heart. Or a single tap of Forbidden Orchard. The opponent does not need to put the creatures into play on his own.

They'll be all tapped though, I believe.
Kiki puts the tokens into play untapped and with haste. The tapping and untapping mechanism comes from Pestermite itself, which is untapping Kiki after each activation. Your army is good to go once DotH activates.

-ktkenshinx-

[Kangaxx]

You need some way to not die by creatures. This combo is too slow to not run something like Wall of Blossoms.

[ktkenshinx]

You need some way to not die by creatures. This combo is too slow to not run something like Wall of Blossoms.
The build that I posted at the end of the previous page runs 8 counterspells that can target creatures (Spell Pierce excepted), maindeck Moment's Peace and Mercy Killing, and tons of card draw and deck manipulation to find them. In games 2 and 3, all of that increases, if need be.
The Moment's Peace is far more useful than blocking creatures, in my testing. If you rely on blockers, your opponent is likely to just remove them with their spells that they know can't do anything to stop DotH. They know that you can just get Iona and Inkwell/Empyrial, which makes all of their removal spells ineffective at that point. So they have nothing against using them right away to take out blockers in order to expedite your demise. Moment's Peace saves you for 2 turns (at least from combat damage), and even if they expend resources countering it, you can still at least get one turn out of it.

-ktkenshinx-

[Kangaxx]

The build that I posted at the end of the previous page runs 8 counterspells that can target creatures (Spell Pierce excepted), maindeck Moment's Peace and Mercy Killing, and tons of card draw and deck manipulation to find them. In games 2 and 3, all of that increases, if need be.
The Moment's Peace is far more useful than blocking creatures, in my testing. If you rely on blockers, your opponent is likely to just remove them with their spells that they know can't do anything to stop DotH. They know that you can just get Iona and Inkwell/Empyrial, which makes all of their removal spells ineffective at that point. So they have nothing against using them right away to take out blockers in order to expedite your demise. Moment's Peace saves you for 2 turns (at least from combat damage), and even if they expend resources countering it, you can still at least get one turn out of it.

-ktkenshinx-

You sound like a person that has never tested his own deck. I've tested Defense of the Heart in the past but to no avail. Your own creatures to stall your opponents is essential if you want this idea to be viable. You will not survive another upkeep after casting a DotH (intensive spell btw) against fast aggro.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

They'll be all tapped though, I believe.

they'll be untapped hasted and ready to go

Edit sorry that was already answered when i clicked last page it sent me to that post :S

[ktkenshinx]

You sound like a person that has never tested his own deck. I've tested Defense of the Heart in the past but to no avail. Your own creatures to stall your opponents is essential if you want this idea to be viable. You will not survive another upkeep after casting a DotH (intensive spell btw) against fast aggro.
On the contrary, I have tested the deck in many matchups over the past week. Yes, that is not enough time to perfect a build, but it is definitely enough testing to make informed opinions about a deck. Here is how the Zoo matchup tends to play out in game 1 if you are on the play. I admit that it is a generalization, but in 15 games against Zoo, 8 went down almost exactly like this.
Turn 1: Land. Pass
Turn 1: Land. Wild Nacatl. Pass.
Turn 2: Land. Pass.
Turn 2: Land. Pridemage (Daze/FoW). Swing for 3 (16, including FoW)
Turn 3: Land. Pass.
Turn 3: Land. Goyf. Lynx. Swing. (Mercy Killing/Moment's Peace)
Turn 4: Land. DotH.
Turn 4: Land. Burn (13). Swing (5-2)
Turn 5: Win
Every game was a close call, but the deck's 10 counterspells, 5 anti-creature spells, and redundant card finding/draw spells make it a race that you can, and do, win.
Merfolk is even more favorable because they cannot beat as fast as Zoo can. Yes, they have more countermagic, but you have more draw and deck manipulation.

One thing that I have strongly considered adding is Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond. The critical turn against most aggro decks seems to be around turn 4, and it can get really hairy around then. If you can drop DotH on turn 3 with some amount of regularity, you would be well positioned to win before the dangerous turn 4 onslaught. Has anyone tried acceleration options that worked well for them, Mox or otherwise?

-ktkenshinx-

[Gocho]

Break DotH, put into play Kiki Jiki + Pestermite, tap target land.
Copy Pestermite with Kiki
Untap Kiki when Pestermite comes into play
Repeat 1000000000

Why do you believe that they'll be all tapped?

[Shai tan teh reaper]

One thing that I have strongly considered adding is Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond. The critical turn against most aggro decks seems to be around turn 4, and it can get really hairy around then. If you can drop DotH on turn 3 with some amount of regularity, you would be well positioned to win before the dangerous turn 4 onslaught. Has anyone tried acceleration options that worked well for them, Mox or otherwise?

-ktkenshinx-

i have been running dark ritual, and the power that getting two free mana brings is amazing. But my build has more 4drops then yours so that might make it better for me then your build, but turn two DotH/Rector is amazing and playing gifts at eot on turn 2 are 3 after playing spell pierce comes in handy every now and then.

[Kangaxx]

I've been testing a Defense of the Heart deck after I saw this card spoiled, Stone Idol Trap (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=170767). I'm really psyched about this card and I believe that it can make DotH actually viable.

DotH isn't consistent without additional outlets such as Eureka. I've been testing the card and have found it to be rather broken. I'm running 8 total, a playset of each (DotH+Eureka) and it's been very consistant.

[Shai tan teh reaper]

I've been testing a Defense of the Heart deck after I saw this card spoiled, Stone Idol Trap (http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=170767). I'm really psyched about this card and I believe that it can make DotH actually viable.

DotH isn't consistent without additional outlets such as Eureka. I've been testing the card and have found it to be rather broken. I'm running 8 total, a playset of each (DotH+Eureka) and it's been very consistant.


i haven't been testing this in quite some time, at local tourniments i play a 5c Dday ANT build so getting that right has taken most my time, but i got bored and figured id give this deck some more time and effort. i saw ur post and u said you have been testing with the new trap and Eureka. I was wonder what you used the trap for? stall? dosen't seem as strong as moments peace but i could very well be mistaken. do you have a list i could see?

[Kangaxx]

i haven't been testing this in quite some time, at local tourniments i play a 5c Dday ANT build so getting that right has taken most my time, but i got bored and figured id give this deck some more time and effort. i saw ur post and u said you have been testing with the new trap and Eureka. I was wonder what you used the trap for? stall? dosen't seem as strong as moments peace but i could very well be mistaken. do you have a list i could see?

I currently cut the Traps for more creatures becuase they seemed weak and added more creatures. The stalling tactic wasn't as good as I thought. Reason being with Eureka it's better to have a creature in hand rather than a Trap. Here's the list I was testing a while ago.

// Lands
4 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard
3 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [B] Bayou
1 [R] Taiga
2 [A] Scrubland
1 [A] Savannah
4 [OV] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [AL] Varchild's War-Riders
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [M10] Darksteel Colossus
1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 [CFX] Inkwell Leviathan

// Spells
4 [UL] Defense of the Heart
3 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [FNM] Gerrard's Verdict
4 [LG] Eureka
3 [MR] Chrome Mox (probably taking out for Lotus Petal. The card disadvantage doesn't work well with Eureka.)

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ALA] Fleshbag Marauder (I'll probably replace this card. I hadn't initially realized my opponent could just sac a token.)
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [FD] Engineered Explosives

I like the fact that Eureka can put a DotH into play along with other creatures. This is relevent cuz then you can search for more if you're ever in a grim situation. I run standard stuff, I like the discard with Eureka alot, which not only reduces what you're opponent puts into play but also lets it resolve. With 8 cards that can cheat stuff into play it's alot more consistent. I also run funny tech in the form of Pulse of the Fields, which lets me recover any life loss from tokens or my opponent's creatures. I'm thinking of switching out the Chrome Mox for Lotus Petal becuase Chrome Mox has proved to be a bad card with Eureka. I love Eureka and this is probably the 3rd deck I've been testing that runs it. It's just that good.