[SCD] Juzam Djinn

[Solaran_X]

NOTE: I know there was a previous SCD about Juzam Djinn, but it was locked and understandably so. It was just the OP asking why Juzam was no longer played, and someone slapping a huge image of Goyf as the reason. Nothing more. I will try to be more constructive and follow the forum rules for the SCD threads.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y98/Solaran_X/9.jpg

Juzam Djinn...one of the oldest and, once, most feared creatures in Magic. At the time of his printing, a 5/5 for :2::b::b: (or :b::b: if you were lucky and your opponent couldn't see the casting cost properly) was unheard of - although his drawback kept him semi-obscure at the time (this was about the same time when Black Lotus was considered "bad" because you only got one use out of it). Eventually, the Juzam Djinn would rise to power for a brief period of time before the printing of Phyrexian Negator in Urza's Destiny that pretty much outclassed Juzam in every way for a fraction of the monetary cost.

For some time in Legacy (then-Type I.V), Phyrexian Negator would be a major beatstick, despite the occasional Lightning Bolt following a turn 1 Negator resulting in a wiped board for the Negator player. Eventually, in 2007 we would see the printing of Tarmogoyf, which would make Negator entirely too dangerous to play and push him off to that deep, dark space where we put old cards that we remember with fondness, but know are no longer playable most of the time (I still occasionally see a Negator today on turn 1, usually followed by a Nether Void on turn 2...but not often enough to warrant a resurgence yet).

With Negator out of the way, now may be a good time to unretire Juzam Djinn in the format for several reasons.

First off, he would give mono-black decks a reason to remain mono-black. Land disruption is a major player in many decks today, and splashing green for Tarmogoyf is a very tempting. However, this opens you to Wasteland effects, or a Stifled fetchland. So while the deck may resolve the Tarmogoyf, they are down a land. Not a major problem, but still...it is a problem.

Second, Juzam Djinn could replace Tarmogoyf in decks that have splashed green for the Goyf. As a 5/5 for :2::b::b:, in a mono-black deck Juzam Djinn comes into play the same turn Tarmogoyf does at :1::g:. Juzam Djinn is also a 5/5 for that cost, and in Legacy today the typical Goyf is 4/5. This means that instead of the "Mexican Goyfoff" we often see today, the Djinn will kill the Goyf.

Third, it's Juzam Djinn. Most players today have probably never even seen the card in person, let alone had one turn sideways against them. While not a major point, the sheer pimpness of playing a Juzam on turn 2 off of a Dark Ritual has to be worth something in the style category.

It's not so much new cards existing today that make Juzam Djinn playable once more, but it's the retiring of other cards (namely Phyrexian Negator) that make Juzam Djinn playable once more. Here are some other points for (and against) Juzam Djinn.

PROS
1) At 4CMC, Juzam Djinn is almost immune to Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top. 1CMC and 2CMC are easily counters, 3CMC is more difficult but can still be hit by CB/SDT, and 5CMC is just about impossible but still doable if they can get a Force of Will on top of their library. 4CMC, however, is currently almost impossible.
2) At 4CMC, Juzam Djinn is immune to the most commonly played CMC-based removal in Legacy right now - Smother and Threads of Disloyalty.
3) As previously mentioned, Juzam Djinn is playable the same turn as Tarmogoyf in a mono-black deck, and as a 5/5 will kill your average Legacy Tarmogoyf (most common cards in a graveyard are Land, Creature, Instant, and Sorcery - Enchantments and Artifacts don't end up in graveyards commonly, Planeswalkers are not heavily played in Legacy [yet], and Tribal spells are only utilized in Rb Vial Goblins right now for Warren Weirding)

CONS
1) He has no way to ensure the damage gets through. Serendib Efreet still sees play today because he has Flying, so he gets through almost every time. Phyrexian Negator had Trample, to ensure some damage got through every turn. Juzam Djinn has neither, meaning he needs a clear path to fulfill his destiny. Thankfully, as a 5/5, almost anything that blocks him will die in the process and Juzam Djinn SHOULD live.
2) Monetary cost. Thanks to it's rarity and nostalgia value, Juzam Djinn is listed as slightly over $100 on MOTL right now. That is a very high cost to pay to replace a $40 Tarmogoyf in a deck just to make it a bit more resilient against land disruption.

That's it for my first SCD thread. Let discussion ensue. And yes, I know Tarmogoyf is, in general, a superior beater. But this thread isn't for general circumstances. View this discussion from the perspective of playing a mono-black deck and weighing the decision of staying mono-black and running Juzam or splashing green and running Goyf.

[humppa]

Price is not a problem. You can always play Plague Sliver instead.

But - why play 5/5 for 4, if you can play 5/5 flying for something between 2 and 4?

There is only one reason to play Juzam Djinn - his cool image!

[Peter_Rotten]

I think you should also address Tomb Stalker which can possibly come down as early as Juzam. It also flies, so it can break the Mexican Goyfoff. It has some added minor benefits also: It can mess with Goyf's p/t by removing cards from your yard. It doesn't ping you or make you sacrifice your board like Negator. When looking at Juzam, we need to honestly consider why we would play him over Tombstalker.

Juzam is out-classed by so many critters in Legacy. Doran and Mystic Enforcer both have better p/t to mana ratios. And what the heck is the name of that stompy critter that Zoo runs for 3 mana?

Juzam should stay retired.

[Solaran_X]

I think you should also address Tomb Stalker which can possibly come down as early as Juzam. It also flies, so it can break the Mexican Goyfoff. It has some added minor benefits also: It can mess with Goyf's p/t by removing cards from your yard. It doesn't ping you or make you sacrifice your board like Negator. When looking at Juzam, we need to honestly consider why we would play him over Tombstalker.
From the mono-black perspective, I didn't list Tombstalker as competition against Juzam Djinn because, ideally, both would be played side-by-side in the same deck.


Juzam is out-classed by so many critters in Legacy. Doran and Mystic Enforcer both have better p/t to mana ratios. And what the heck is the name of that stompy critter that Zoo runs for 3 mana?
Woolly Thoctar. Yeah, I forgot about him...the 5/4 for :w::r::g:. Mystic Enforcer isn't heavily played anymore, although I wouldn't be surprised if he made a resurgence if black becomes a commonly played color again. As for Doran, I've only seen one deck that uses him and it's listed in the Developmental section. However, all three of these creatures are unplayable in mono-black, which is the decks I've said would benefit most of a resurgence of Juzam.


Juzam should stay retired.
Perhaps. We know that high-priced cards do still see play if they prove worthy, such as Imperial Recruiter and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.

[Kangaxx]

Price is not a problem. You can always play Plague Sliver instead.

But - why play 5/5 for 4, if you can play 5/5 flying for something between 2 and 4?

There is only one reason to play Juzam Djinn - his cool image!

Nobody plays Countersliver anymore so how is Plague Sliver better? It's even worse in multiples. Juzam Djinn does have it's advantages over other black 5/5's for 4, but who plays 5/5's for 4 nowadays?

I might actually get a playset though, who knows when and if Wizard's R&D will ever print Djinn tribal cards.

[KillemallCFH]

Nobody plays Countersliver anymore so how is Plague Sliver better? It's even worse in multiples. Juzam Djinn does have it's advantages over other black 5/5's for 4, but who plays 5/5's for 4 nowadays?He never said Plague Sliver was better. However, 95% of the time, they will be the exact same thing, with Plague Sliver running about $97 cheaper.

That being said, Juzam doesn't cut it anymore. He may be bigger than Goyf (sometimes), but he also costs twice as much. That's huge in such a tempo-driven format.

[SMR0079]

There is only one solution.

Errata Juzam Djinn's casting cost to double black.

Then he will challenge the Goyf

[Otter]

Juzam beating out Goyf's usual 4/5 status is very contradictory to something black wants to do -- solve artifacts and enchantments with Thoughtseize/Duress. If you bin one of those with the discard suite that you'll obviously be playing (or accidentally hit them with Hymn), Goyf hits 5/6 and rolls over your Djinn.

[BreathWeapon]

Juzam sucks in everything short of Prison/Aggro, there's just nothing the guy does better than Tombstalker.

[Elfrago]

Juzam Djinn WAS undercosted, now, thanks to power creep he is overcosted for his body.

That's it.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

http://pw0nd.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/what-you-did-there-i-see-it.jpg

[Aleksandr]

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/on/153.jpg

For me this guy is 200 % more appealing than Juzam Djinn.

[Doomsday]

^ I was going to post Grinning Demon too. Also I would rather use Phyrexian Scuta.

[Nessaja]

But this thread isn't for general circumstances. View this discussion from the perspective of playing a mono-black deck and weighing the decision of staying mono-black and running Juzam or splashing green and running Goyf.
That's the thing though, you can't look at Legacy in a vacuum, splashing for Goyf is the better option.
In a non-stompy build there's Nantuko Shade, I'd rather have Nighthawk instead of this as well and ditto to Tombstalker.
In a stompy build I'd rather have Scuta and Grinning Demon.

[FoolofaTook]

Juzam Djinn just does not fit in the meta at this point. He has no evasion, no protection, no special ability, he's not undercosted in terms of power and toughness, he has a significant drawback that caused losses from time to time even in the old meta, basically he's just not that good. And because he's from Arabian Nights and was never reprinted he's also a fragile card that does not hold it's color well when exposed to light and tends to scuff up easily when shuffled even in sleeves.

I loved the card and had it in every deck I built for about a year straight, but that was 1994.

[Sevryn]

Another thing to consider is how bad Juzam Djinn is if you DON'T have a Dark Ritual. And I agree with other posters that for most purposes Tombstalker is better.

[Meister_Kai]

I think its sort of funny how people in this thread are talking as if Juzam was played in legacy ever. I've been following this format since 2004 and I'm pretty sure I've never seen it in a serious decklist.

The reasons I believe Juzam was never played are:

1. They are expensive
2. Sui black or whatever has never been THAT great of a deck

I'm also not going to discount the notion that perhaps people were just too lazy to test it, it could of been good before Goyf was printed. As so many people have said though, there really isn't any reason to run it over Plague Sliver.

[Worldslayer]

I'm also not going to discount the notion that perhaps people were just too lazy to test it, it could of been good before Goyf was printed. As so many people have said though, there really isn't any reason to run it over Plague Sliver.

Plague Sliver is stricly worse than Juzam Djinn in multiples unless you're in counterslivers.meta, at which point congratulations on your excellent meta call.

That being said -

The closest comparison IS Plague Sliver.

Grinning Demon trumps that as only a powered-up Goyf can go toe to toe with it, while a slightly-above-average Goyf can tangle with Plague Sliver / Juzam Djinn.

Tombstalker, while clearly better, requires far more of a set-up. In order to be evenly costed to Juzam Djinn, you must have four cards in your graveyard. While this may be "the low cost of playing magic"*, ala Goyf, it also means that a turn 2 Tombstalker is unreasonable, barring TurboStalker.dec. Meanwhile, while Juzam is clearly inferior to Tombstalker once resolved, does nothing to mitigate Goyf, and has a drawback, it is a far more consistent turn 2 play - it requires one specific card, yes, but ONLY requires one, not 4-6.

In terms of early consistency, we have -
Juzam Djinn / Grinning Demon / Plague Sliver
Tombstalker

In terms of power once resolved we have -
Tombstalker
Grinning Demon
Juzam Djinn / Plague Sliver

I think my overall call of these picks would be Grinning Demon over Juzam/Sliver, and aside Tombstalker when playing a Sui variant. In the above statements Demon at *worst* ties with Juzam and his Sliver pseudo-reprint, and at best trumps them by a full tier.


Overall, Goyf is still better by a large margin than any of these - it just is. However, once accepting that, Tombstalker is probably the "next best thing", followed by Grinning Demon (for offensive strategies with a black commitment).



*Alright, this is a bit disingenuous. Tombstalker's love of you and your opponent playing Magic is completely inverted from Goyf's. Goyf is cheap, and gets better as the game goes on. Tombstalker is expensive, and simply becomes "less bad" as casting him for low CMCs becomes more feasible. Important distinction, as "The next best thing" still has a fairly large power gap between it and the "best thing".


EDIT: Edited because I completely made up Tombstalker's mana cost for a second there.

[Otter]

Tombstalker, while clearly better, requires far more of a set-up. In order to be evenly costed to Juzam Djinn, you must have six cards in your graveyard.

Huh? Juzam costs four, to get Tombstalker to cost four you only need four cards in your graveyard.

[SilverGreen]

I still think Moss Monster is about 64,76% better.

[dahcmai]

Sadly, I can't picture him even being good in standard now even if he got re-printed. I love the card, but he's just a tad outdated now.

I actually still like Ishan's Shade better (not counting art) despite the fact I own a few Juzams.

[chokin]

To the guys still not understanding how Plague Sliver is about the same as Juzam Djinn.

I wouldn't play either of them without having a clear board first. They don't have evasion and don't really change board position.

Yes. Playing 2 Djinns is only going to cost you 2 life a turn, where as playing 2 Slivers is going to cost you 4.

Tombstalker is strictly better, as he is the same size, has evasion, doesn't hurt you, and can easily cost the same if not less mana. Team America and Eva Green pull it off a lot. They're both tempo decks. And I highly doubt that any pilot or builder of those decks ever once thought "Gee man, I wish this was Djinn!"

For a whole 1B more, you can get Oona, who DOES change board position after a bit of a mana dump and it saves you lots of money.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I like the card as well, but really, there is not a place for him in the format and Plague Sliver would be better in every imaginable way simply because people still play Slivers and Counter-Sliver. Phyrexian Scuta and Grinning Demon are also better but all are equally as slow. Goyf dulls down the format, that is why Spiritmonger is no longer played and he is certainly one of the best creatures ever printed! But Plague Sliver in legacy is just better than Juzam, it sucks, but thats the way the format is :( This is the agrument without getting into how damn good Tombstalker is.

[AngryTroll]

Goyf dulls down the format, that is why Spiritmonger is no longer played and he is certainly one of the best creatures ever printed!

I LOVE Spiritmonger. However, he would not see any more play without Goyf in the format than he does with Goyf in the format.

There are lots of creatures that I love that don't see play any more, and the knee-jerk reaction is to blame Tarmogoyf. However, Spiritmonger is far too slow to deal with Goblins, Zoo with Watchwolf over Goyf, Tendrils, Ichorid, the huge creatures AggroLoam drops for three mana, or even Thresh with Werebear over Goyf (and I fully accept that Werebear may not be the best choice for that slot, but even with an underpowered beater in Goyf's slot, Spiritmonger wouldn't be good enough).

[Aleksandr]

I LOVE Spiritmonger. However, he would not see any more play without Goyf in the format than he does with Goyf in the format.

There are lots of creatures that I love that don't see play any more, and the knee-jerk reaction is to blame Tarmogoyf. However, Spiritmonger is far too slow to deal with Goblins, Zoo with Watchwolf over Goyf, Tendrils, Ichorid, the huge creatures AggroLoam drops for three mana, or even Thresh with Werebear over Goyf (and I fully accept that Werebear may not be the best choice for that slot, but even with an underpowered beater in Goyf's slot, Spiritmonger wouldn't be good enough).

Right now I am trying Spiritmonger as a two of in my BeeGees and he works quite good. He's the best undercosted beater next to Goyf and Stalker, is unaffected by GY hate and he also eats every blocker except for AggroLoam guys and some absurd Goyf (not that AgrroLoam is a concern since Relic, Trap... and Ichorid.) He's a kind of fire-and-forget weapon, too, because every other conteder like Gatekeeper of Malakir or Nantuko Shade are either conditional or they need some care. (Not that GoM is worse than Monger... I just like Spiritmonger better.)

If we wanna stay monoblack, there are not many 5/5 creatures for Djinn's manacost, but the lack of evasion/protection and his value makes him unplayable. Heck, I would not play 5/5 for :2::b::b:. Even without his drawback, Djinn does nothing.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I had a reallly good response, ten I thought i shouod stop chatting ith people and post hwhile I am sober!

[Meekrab]

Pros: Costs 4 mana and has a 5/5 body.
Cons: Costs 4 mana; also, other critters have 5/5 or better bodies for less/the same mana without the same drawback. Also costs about 2395798234732 dollars per copy.

Did I cover it?

[alphastorm]

You forgot to mention it's one of the coolest looking artwork in mtg next to knights of thorn.

[DrJones]

You forgot to mention it's one of the coolest looking artwork in mtg next to knights of thorn.You forget Nightmare and Necropotence.

Edit: And Leviathan. Mark Tedin rocks.

[undone]

Lol the best part is we got a new card to dwarf Juzam.

2BB LOL anti- plat demon
Trample flying
You cant win and your opponent cannot lose
6/6

That card has litterally no real drawback so its pretty insane.

[alphastorm]

I agree, it's probably the best I have seen in a long time. Unfortunately it's needs to be played in a heavy black deck. It works really well with cards like cabal therapy.

[Odysseus]

well Goyf is :1::g:, so what if they WoG/DoJ'd Juzam into a 5/5 with the 1 life loss for :b::b: as someone mentioned earlier ? too strong ? what about the 2 life loss from Grinning Demon, or something like Serra Avenger ? Juzam 2.0 cant be played on your first or second turn.

[Forbiddian]

Lol the best part is we got a new card to dwarf Juzam.

2BB LOL anti- plat demon
Trample flying
You cant win and your opponent cannot lose
6/6

That card has litterally no real drawback so its pretty insane.

You mean cause you will have no chance to win anyway if you play overcosted garbage like that or... ?

[FoolofaTook]

Pros: Costs 4 mana and has a 5/5 body.\

I'm not even sure a 5/5 for:2::b::b: would be played all that much at this point even without a drawback. You have Goyf at :1::g: who can both block quicker and grow larger. You have Tombstalker who can be played for :b::b: in many cases and flies. You have Doran at :b::g::w: as a 5/5. Then you start to get into all the creatures who are played for something other than their beating power but who can also beat effectively and it just looks like vanilla 5/5 for 4 mana is kind of blah.

[DragoFireheart]

Why the fuck would anyone want to waste a few hundred dollars on a bad card?

If you want a 5/5 for 4 mana, use Phyrexian Scuta instead. He's nearly the same damn card but costs about 130 less dollars. He's also a Zombie, so I'm sure some janky tribal zombie deck could have a home for him.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=5858

[DrJones]

Why the fuck would anyone want to waste a few hundred dollars on a bad card?Not everyone here is a player. :wink:

[alphastorm]

Some people just like to show off their $1000 deck.

[Aleksandr]

Lol the best part is we got a new card to dwarf Juzam.

2BB LOL anti- plat demon
Trample flying
You cant win and your opponent cannot lose
6/6

That card has litterally no real drawback so its pretty insane.


I agree, it's probably the best I have seen in a long time. Unfortunately it's needs to be played in a heavy black deck. It works really well with cards like cabal therapy.

No, it won't work well. Because every good Player will counter Cabal Therapy.

[Otter]

No, it won't work well. Because every good Player will counter Cabal Therapy.

Sacrificing the creature is part of the cost.

[alphastorm]

No, it won't work well. Because every good Player will counter Cabal Therapy.

You mean every bad player who doesn't know the rules to mtg? Get your rules straight. Countering Cabal therapy does nothing. I still get to sac the creature because it's part of the cost.

[Aleksandr]

Well,I still believe that every good Player will counter Cabal Therapy.

[SomeRandomDude]

Well,I still believe that every good Player will counter Cabal Therapy.

Can't counter something when you're dead. :tongue:

[alphastorm]

Well,I still believe that every good Player will counter Cabal Therapy.

So let me get this right. Suppose I put you down to zero life with abyssal persecutor then I cast cabal therapy. You counter it. I then cast cabal therapy again with it's flashback cost. You try to counter it again but realize you are dead. lol

[Aleksandr]

<Player> r u retardet?
<Player> therapi counetered
<Player> no lose game
<Player> lern rules n00b
<System> Player Lost

Believe me, every good Player will counter Therapy.

[SomeRandomDude]

<Player> r u retardet?
<Player> therapi counetered
<Player> no lose game
<Player> lern rules n00b
<System> Player Lost

Believe me, every good Player will counter Therapy.

Do you understand how therapy works? I swing with the demon, bringing you down to 0 life. Then with therapy in the yard (it has to be in the yard for me to sac with), I sac the demon to pay for it and you lose. There is nothing for you to counter, by that time you are dead.

[Hopo]

Well,I still believe that every good Player will counter Cabal Therapy.

Your belief is wrong.
In this particular case your understanding of rules of the game is wrong. Also, countering Therapy is a fringe play anyway, good player or bad. Most of the time Cabal Therapy's function is to be an uncounterable sacrifice outlet.

[Aleksandr]

Not that I wish to start a flame war, but believe me - many Players (maybe every Player) will either counter Cabal Therapy or Stifle the Demon ability.

[yankeedave]

Not that I wish to start a flame war, but believe me - many Players (maybe every Player) will either counter Cabal Therapy or Stifle the Demon ability.

Ok, you and me are playing. I have a Cabal Therapy in the graveyard, and I have just attacked you from 4 life to 0 (or -2, if that was possible, which it isn't) with the Abyssal Persecutor. Now, you can't lose the game and I can't win. I decide to flashback Cabal Therapy, targetting you. I then sacrifice the Abyssal Persecutor to pay the flashback cost of Cabal Therapy. You can then respond as you wish, ie counter it, but once state based effects are checked, you will be dead, as you are on 0 life, and you are no longer protected by the demon. Therefore, the counterspell is pointless. And you cannot stifle the demon ability, it is a static effect.

[Bardo]

Not that I wish to start a flame war, but believe me - many Players (maybe every Player) will either counter Cabal Therapy or Stifle the Demon ability.

Cabal Therapy
Oracle text: Name a nonland card. Target player reveals his or her hand and discards all cards with that name.
Flashback—Sacrifice a creature. (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then exile it.)

@ Aleksandr - Sacrificing a dude is part of the flashback cost; you can't counter the sac ability.

With the Abyssal guy, if your life is at 0 and your opponent flashs back Cabal Therapy, you'll die when the game checks for state-based effects, whether you counter the Therapy or not.

End of story. PM me if you wish to discuss this further, otherwise, I'll assume you're trolling and will dole out warnings accordingly.

[Zlatzman]

I think the whole MWS-thing went a bit too far here. It is obvious that most guys named "Player" on MWS will attempt to counter Cabal Therapy, and then just go "System: Player Lost" when you tell them that doesn't work.

[DragoFireheart]

That's like people trying to counter Dread Return to stop me from making dozens of zombies tokens in Ichorid.

No, you can't stop the payment effect unless you get rid of the bridges.

[Nessaja]

You guys are either really slow, don't understand sarcasm over the internet or just aren't reading correctly.

Every good Player (=READ Player AKA new MWS player that hasn't changed his or her name yet) will counter Cabal Therapy.

It's a joke, get it? Funny.. you know?

[majikal]

We are not amused. :|

[Aleksandr]

Sorry that I tried to be funny. It won't happen on this site anymore.

[DragoFireheart]

Sorry that I tried to be funny. It won't happen on this site anymore.


If you stop trying, how will you become funny?

I admit that at first I thought you were serious and didn't realize you were alluding to MWS noobs. It's very easy to miss sarcasm on the Internet at times.



Anyways, the $100 genie is terrible and if you paid money specifically to use it for Legacy tournaments when there is a much cheaper option, you are also bad. Even if it was viable, there is a $1 version that could be argued to be superior.

[Lothian]

Anyways, the $100 genie is terrible and if you paid money specifically to use it for Legacy tournaments when there is a much cheaper option, you are also bad. Even if it was viable, there is a $1 version that could be argued to be superior.

Ooops... so I am one of those dumb n00b who's just bought a "genie" playset for 100$, that hurts ...

Although, it must be said that mtg is a capitalistic-based game, so the value of a card exists as long as some player want to buy it. therefore if that card turns out to be a staple in Standard and please the n00bs (a 6/6 flying trample for 4 is n00b pure pleasure, a pure n00b won't even play the player can't win ability), it might be worth twice as much in a year time.

Legacy is a fringe format marginally driving card value.

As per MWS, well, this is mostly for testing and for allowing players to play cards they can't afford. So indeed don't expect much fun from that dude in MWS.

I'd like to see what impact it has IRL, a motherfocka Demon which needs to be killed to achieve the ultimate goal, blocking nearly anything (goyf included), should be fun

Compared with Juzam Djinn, it's a no brainer

Although I'd like to own one, but the shitty old dude is still worth over 100$ each

Not bad for a bad card....

[Bardo]

FYI, this thread officially sucks. Just so you know.