[Deck] Bant

[CaBaaL]

If you're going to run the NO package you should probably modify AJ's old list. I'm not a fan of the Progen package though. still makes you spend money on Zenith if you don't have them.

Also, if you do decide to play the equipment package instead, play Body and Mind over Fire and Ice. I know it sounds crazy but I'm just going to have to ask you to trust me on that. *You're wallet will love you too.

I am not a fan of NO either but it wins fast can easy outrace zoo, rock and tribal(merfolk are harder) or RDW so i use him. But my meta starts to adapt and more and more i see black-slash for perish, so in the end its more a meta call.

btw check this one:
http://www.magic-league.com/deck/69031/legacy_t15.html

[CaBaaL]

If you're going to run the NO package you should probably modify AJ's old list. I'm not a fan of the Progen package though. still makes you spend money on Zenith if you don't have them.

Also, if you do decide to play the equipment package instead, play Body and Mind over Fire and Ice. I know it sounds crazy but I'm just going to have to ask you to trust me on that. *You're wallet will love you too.

I am not a fan of NO either but it wins fast can easy outrace zoo, rock and tribal(merfolk are harder) or RDW so i use him. But my meta starts to adapt and more and more i see black-slash for perish, so in the end its more a meta call.

btw check this one:
http://www.magic-league.com/deck/69031/legacy_t15.html

[Zamussels]

If you're going to run NO package, why not also run Show and Tell / Emrakul? Or is there another thread to discuss that deck?

[CaBaaL]

If you're going to run NO package, why not also run Show and Tell / Emrakul? Or is there another thread to discuss that deck?

cause it your deck will be U/g (why you will need w?) show & tell with no package. It will be a combo deck not an agro one.

You have to keep enough threats to consider your deck playabe without NO. May its only me but I do not like to be able to play creatures only via "cheat" (NO, S&T) I personaly use NO as plan B and Progenitus is the only "dead" top-deck. Plan B in NO plan c? plan B.2?? anyway as 2nd target I use Rafiq he is castable and can take ppl be surprice (even get him with zenith) and he is blue too. I replaced a jace wallet raper and never missed him yet.

[Bignasty197]

Played this list in a 16 Man tourney today and went 4-1, splitting top 2. I lost to BG Infect(1-2) round 1 then beat the same deck in top 4(2-0). I also beat Junk(2-0), Team America(2-1) and Suicide Black(2-0)

4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ponder

SB-
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Terastodon

I had trouble dealing with Phyrexian Crusader. That card is a must counter IMO.

[Deady]

@Bignasty197

Congrats!!!!

Love the list.

Do NO and Jace go well in the same deck?

[Bignasty197]

@Deady
The main reason I put Jace in at first was to maximize my chances of drawing Natural Order. After playing the deck for awhile, I think Jace deserves 1 or 2 slots maindeck along side Natural Order because if they aren't prepared for him, they usually lose. I obviously board him out against aggro to put in Stoneforge Mystic and the equipment. There were times during testing where I would hit Natural Order game 1 and hit Jace in game 2 and catch them off guard. People usually think you run one or the other.

I have literally been playing this deck for 2 weeks. I usually switch decks weekly but I think I may make this my permanent deck. It's pretty powerful.

[neckfire]

I know its bad against merfolk.
Team america is pretty rough.
Dredge isn't ever a real deck.
Burn dies to rox war monk
Affinity is usually in my favor with a good hand.

I don't really plan on changing the deck i just want to hear what people who have more time and more experience with the deck have to say. Any advice?
I don't want to assume that i have the matchups right i could be playing the deck poorly or my opponents could be facing the matchup poorly.

Dredge is a very real deck now :)

[CalebD]

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-gauntleting-bant/

Article up. Top eighted the Atlanta 5k with it, and should have a report up soon too.

[jeanbathez]

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-gauntleting-bant/

Article up. Top eighted the Atlanta 5k with it, and should have a report up soon too.

Very good article !!!
I liked how you described the style of the matchups with plays and matchup overview, very, very good and btw some nice play against countertop btw ;-) !!!

I tried something similar, but had problem with the blue count, if i got it right i count 15 at your list in the article (16 in Atlanta), how did that work out ?
I tried a E Tutor SB and was very pleased with it, but that is my personal playstyle.

Report would be very interesting !!!

[codegeass]

Just finished building my pro bant deck today. Played it in a tourney for the first time. I went 2-2 losing to a homebrew anti blue deck 4xred blast 4xpryo blast 4xblood moon 3magus of the moon etc. Lost to big zoo knight of the reliquary is a bitch against this deck! I did beat mono blue merfolk 2-1 and belcher 2-1. The pro bant build is one of the most funnest decks I have ever played!:tongue::smile:

[Bignasty197]

Just finished building my pro bant deck today.

What does your list look like?

[codegeass]

What does your list look like?

Creatures
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Progenitus
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Rhox War Monk

Instant
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm

Sorcery
2 Natural Order

Artifacts
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

planeswalkers
1x jace the mind sculptor

Land
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
1xscalding tarn

[Bignasty197]

Have you thought of using Elspeth in place of Jace since your build is pretty much straight aggro?

[codegeass]

Have you thought of using Elspeth in place of Jace since your build is pretty much straight aggro?

No I have not gave it much thought. I have not seen a lot of pro bant build running Elspeth. I am planning taking out the jace for one more natural order. There out of stock most places.:cry:

[Bignasty197]

A third Natural Order would be the best option, but if that isn't available you could run the 4th Pridemage.

[codegeass]

A third Natural Order would be the best option, but if that isn't available you could run the 4th Pridemage.

Thanks for the advice. Yeah I plan on getting another natural order ASAP.

[justjoddat]

What are NO Bants matchups like? I'm just starting to play the deck. Worst/best matchups etc.

[Bignasty197]

I'm relatively new to the deck, but I can list a few things based on what I have played against.
Weak Matchups- Merfolk, Dredge, Mono Black decks with Phyrexian Crusader and lots of removal, Junk decks with Pernicious Deed.
Strong Matchups- Goblins when they do not have Perish, Zoo, Team America.

Again, I haven't played against a wide field of decks yet, but these are what I consistently see and do well/poorly against.

[adamt]

I've been playing something akin to AJ's NO Pro Bant list with a few tweaks (Thrun in for the Scryb Ranger) and have been watching the MTGO Legacy daily results for a bit (as well as playing online with it).

I've been noticing a lot of people on MTGO that are playing bant using an Enlightened Tutor sideboard plan (2 tutors plus an assortment of: needle, back to basics, canonist, energy flux (or null rod), Eng Explosives, relic of prog, wheel of sun and moon) and was wondering what people think here about it.

I've not had a chance to test it yet as I don't own them IRL or online but it would seem to shore up some of the tougher matches (ie COMBO, 12 post, tribal).

The hardest matches I've found with the deck are Combo (TES/ANT) and Merfolk.

Zoo and Junk seem to be easier if you have Paths and or Submerges in your board, but Merfolk just dazes/islandwalks/submerges me out of the games lately. I've tried running some combinations of Jittes/paths/llawan/needle/selkie out of the board to no avail. Perhaps a Stoneforge sideboard package would help more? (2/3 SFM, 1 Jitte, 1 Sword of Fire Ice?)

Tendrils combo would seem to be better with a multi-pronged attack of Gaddock Teeg/Ethersworn Canonist/Rule of Law (ie they can't answer the hate with 1 card (echoing truth or rebuild/etc)) but I just wonder what other people are using to make this match-ups better.

[Bignasty197]

In the Merfolk matchup, I side out 3 NO, 1 Progenitus and 4 Daze for 2 Stoneforge, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Path, 1 Jitte and 1 Sword of Fire and Ice. They usually just counter Natural Order and you fall way behind, so I basically replace it with a Stoneforge package. I have found Daze very weak in this matchup, even on the play. The only creature that I don't want to see them play is Lord of Atlantis. I make it a priority to get rid of those immediately since all my duals are Blue based. That is against traditional Merfolk lists. Recently, I played against a list that ran Stifles in place of Standstills and I got completely destroyed both games. On that, I don't have any insight.

[codegeass]

Last week when I played pro bant my biggest problem was wasteland! Dose anyone else have trouble dealing with wasteland? What are the best options to deal with wasteland? Do you guys just play around it and fetch basics? I had thought about that in some of my matchups last week, But the deck is very dual land dependant.

[SMR0079]

Check out Caleb's report and anlaysis:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-bantlanta/

He claims to have a much better Merfolk match from dropping Natural Order for a Stoneforge Mystic package and sowers. This is enough for me to give it a try. Although the list seems a little light on counter magic for my taste.

Discuss.

[Atomic Requiem]

I was running the Natural Order package with AJ Sacher's list, but due to the prevalence of tribal decks splashing black for Perish (I was Perished something like 6-8 times one tournament) I switched to the Stoneforge package (similar to the list on CFB linked above). I top 4'd a 28 man GPT and won a FTV:Exiled for my troubles.

I definitely beat Merfolk on the back of SoFi/Jitte. I was very happy to have White creatures to equip, although naturally I didn't get Perished a single time that tournament. In any event, not having a card disadvantage blow-out like Natural Order helped out. Given the high high rate of tribal/aggro around here, the Stoneforge package is what I'll run for now. Running 3x Wastelands was also good, and didn't seem to hurt as much as I expected, naturally due to how good Noble Hierarch is.

[Bignasty197]

Ended up in 4th place at a GPT today with this list. I went 4-2-1. I beat Show and Tell(2-0), Aggro Loam(2-1) and BGW Junk(2-1) in the Swiss. I lost once in the Swiss to Mono Red Burn(1-2) and once in the Top 4(0-2) to the BGW Junk deck I beat earlier. I ID'd with Elf Combo to make Top 8.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus
1 Trygon Predator

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Natural Order
2 Ponder
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

[JJ_JKidd]

Regarding the ProBant list with GSZ, has anyone tried the inclusion of a singleton Rafiq of the Many?

1. It can be pitched to FoW

2. A possible GSZ target

2. Is another threat which can make the silver bullets like KoTR, RWM or possibly Terravore bigger. Not to mention Progenitus? :eek:

[supachai]

Check out Todd Anderson's article on SCG:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21735_Constructed_Criticism_NO_Bant_And_Mental_Misstep_In_Legacy.html

I completely agree that Daze is very mediocre in this deck as it packs no other mana denial. Misstep helps our creatures survive Bolts and Swords and slows aggro while shoring up combo MUs. I like the direction he is taking with the deck and upon a little playtesting, there isn't much I would change about his deck. I do want to play the full set of Goyfs as they are a wall against aggro and even a second win con if we draw a ton of GSZ's/Goyfs. 20 land has usually been sufficient considering we have 8 turn 1 mana accel. Terastodon has been amazing against Merfolk, surprisingly. Destroy all your Island so they lose Islandwalk and you suddenly have 18 worth of power on the table.

[Bignasty197]

I agree with Daze being bad in this deck. Any good player just plays around it. Mental Misstep will very likely replace Daze in my list due to its usefulness in later turns. I can't count how many times Daze just sits in my hand until it's used as a Force pitch.

[beebles]

I agree with Daze being bad in this deck. Any good player just plays around it. Mental Misstep will very likely replace Daze in my list due to its usefulness in later turns. I can't count how many times Daze just sits in my hand until it's used as a Force pitch.

Hello all. I am playing aggro bant at GP providence most likely. I played Caleb Durward's deck in a tourney today and crushed. I came in second out of 16 losing only to friggin mono red burn. The deck does seem verstaile and I easily beat Merfolk TES and Affinity. The burn player sideboarded oddly and brought in 4 pyrostatic pillar against me. He had double pillar out and for some reason I thought pillar affected cards with CMC 2 or less. I went for the sword of fire and ice and realized my error. Arggh.

The only thing I wished I had where the misdirections. They could have really helped in the burn match up, and my friend crushed me in practice with GWB dark horizons playing for casual. I don't like the Mirran Crusaders at all....

I have never played Natural Order but I am sceptical of Todd's New Deck. Mental Misstep is cool and all, but his deck seems pretty heavily dependent on resolving Natural Order to win and Mental Mistep doesn't protect it all that well imo like Daze does. Idk... I think I am sticking with good ol sower of temptation steeling reejeray's and myr enforcers and such.

[CaBaaL]

I do not think mental misstep should replace daze, at 1st everyone will play it as a play set cause of the mass hysteria (it will look hilarious in monored or in affinity) but after this it will be realized that mental misstep can not protect you from counter balance on turn 2 (neither proctecs it) nor can can counter a force of will. So my opinion (it can be wrong ofc) is that a combination of 3-4 dazes and 3-4 mental missteps will be the right thing

[Shugyosha]

I agree with Daze being bad in this deck. Any good player just plays around it.

I like it pretty much when people are playing around my dazes all the time and most of the time I don't even have a Daze in my hand. A player doing this practically misses a land drop without much investment from your side other than catching him pants down with 2 daze later on...

[PhanTom_lt]

Made top4 split at a Legacy side event (~65 players) at GP:London piloting Caleb's Stoneforge Bant deck with a few minor tweaks, like an additional blue card instead of a GSZ and a few SB changes. Lost to ANT and Junk in the swiss and crushed merfolk, team america, Jacestill and TES.

[Mirrislegend]

I can't speak for Pro Bant, as it was never really an option for me. But Excalibur Bant (Durward's list) benefits greatly from Mental Misstep. It already doesn't play Daze, so there's no argument there. MM acts like StP vs Bant's weak MUs (Zoo/Burn) while also helping beat combo (gotta have more than just 4 FoW). And cutting StP for MM doesn't effect any other MU negatively, besides maybe Merfolk. Seems like a very worthwhile tradeoff.

[beebles]

I actually wrote to Caleb asking how many MMs to run at the grand prix, and he actually replied. Here is what he wrote:

------------
While I haven't tested it extensively, Mental Misstep seems a bit narrow for what the deck wants. I tested Spell Snare as a two of early on, and, while the card was good, it wasn't the general answer that the deck wanted against the field.

If I was going to test the card, I would go -1 Ponder, -2 Stoneforge, -1 SoFI, +1 Umezawa's Jitte, +3 Mental Misstep. You'll note that the deck trades away power with this switch. 0-3 copies is probably accurate, leaning towards zero and depending on your read of the metagame.

--------------

I agree it is not what you want. Aggo Bant is pretty much just a slow deck Zoo with a tad of Disruption that lets you hopefully fend your opponent off from doing broken things until you can kill them. The deck isn't great at playing a reactive game, you want to beat down hard and just disrupt the unfair decks long enough to kill them. If you gut the aggro core of the deck you are going to just be a bad control deck, and you might as well just play Countertop.

I am hopefully going to go to some GPTs next weekend but I would have to travel out of state to go. I am going with the exact Caleb Durward list http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-bantlanta/ with my slightly tweaked board.

My current board is like

3 Submerge
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Sower of Temptation
3 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Trygon Predator
2 Spell Pierce.

Threads of Disloyalty is there for just about everything with creatures execept goblins. I wanted some kind of removal besides sower that doesn't get countered by Mental Mistep. I figure stealing stuff with Sower is a blow out everytime it happens so why not just steal even more stuff. Stealing Coralhelm Commanders should be a massive beating against merfolk.

My sbing is ussually like

Merfolk
-4 Force
-1 Vendillion Clique
-1 Ponder

+3 Pithing Needle
+1 Sower of Temptation
+2 Threads

Storm based combo

-4 Swords
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice

+1 Teeg
+2 Spell Pierce
+1 Trygon
+1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Mid range creature decks, Rock, Bant etc.

-4 Force
-2 Vendillion Clique
-1 Pridemage
-1 Ponder

+2 Threads
+1 Sower
+3 Submerge
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Sword of Feast and Famine


Affinity
-1 Jace
-1 Force
-1 Clique
-1 Stone Forge

+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Trygon
+1 Sower

Dredge (probably hopeless)

-3 Vendillion Clique

+1 Gaddock Teeg
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Sower of Temptation


Zoo
-4 Force
-3 Clique
-1 Pridemage
-1 Ponder

+3 Submerge
+1 Bojuka Bog
+2 Threads
+1 Sower
+2 Pithing Needle

Countertop ( This is probably massively wrong)
-4 Swords
-1 Sword of fire and Ice
-1 War Monk

+2 Threads/submerge (not sure which)
+2 Needle
+1 Trygon
+1 Sower

[fallenphoenix]

@beebles: I wouldn't advise to board out all of the Swords, as this leaves you cold to a Goyf-heavy draw or Sower of Temptation.
SoFi also seems better than Jitte in this particular matchup and if you're lowering the amount of equipment in the deck, you could (and probably should) cut a Stoneforge.
I'd go for:
-1 SFM
-1 Jitte
-1 Warmonk
+1 Sower
+1 Trygon P.
+1 Threads

or even

-1 Jitte
-1 Warmonk
-1 ???
+1 SoFF
+1 Trygon P.
+1 Threads

depending on their version.

I think with MM and how it helps Merfolk fend of removal, some additional help might be needed in this regard, as you can't rely on your Swords to clear the lane.

[adamt]

I had been playtesting a version of NO Bant with sfm in them just to shore up my merfolk matchup and just found it wasn't worth it as it watered down the rest of the deck for me.

I played in a 90 person GPT at DieHard Games this past weekend making top 8 with essentially Reid Duke's list from Boston subbing in 4stp/2 path for the red he had in and a RWM/QPM instead of the ponders he had. I lost in the top 8 to a really loose caw blade u/w deck that was manned by a good local player who always seems to have my number. He always had an active jitte and i couldn't get anything through it and made a few critical judgement errors (pathing a creature early that ramped him up to jace mana).

Here is the list for anyone interested:

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vendilion Clique
3 Daze
2 Path to Exile
2 Ponder
1 Progenitus
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Qasali Pridemage


4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor


Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
1 Terastodon
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Trygon Predator
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Arcane Laboratory
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Energy Flux
2 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Gaddock Teeg


what I faced

r1- dredge 2-1, 1-0 (just keep them off discard outlets and eventually draw into s/b cards (wheel))
r2- ctop NO Bant - unintentional draw, 1-0-1 (g1 i get prog, g2 he gets prog, no time for g3)
r3-- affinity, 2-0 - 2-0-1 (paths win g1 and energy flux wins g2)
r4- deedstill 0-2, 2-1-1 (he was running stupid amounts of creature removal.. then just got jaced)
r5- junk 2-1, 3-1-1 (would have been a draw but opp conceded as neither of us could top 8 with 2 draws and a loss)
r6- deedstill 2-0, 4-1-1 terastodon for the win killing black lands
r7- dredge 2-0, 5-1-1 (i got paired down and won the same way i did r1.. counter/kill discard outlets, NO removes bridges)
into top 8

my friend Dave top 8'd SCG Charlotte with Reid's list and I would have played it had i had the wooded foothills. The deedstill match gets much better when you can bolt jace or the player when dead paths//stp sit in your hand against an active jace sitting behind deed.

the only card i didn't board in the whole day was Arcane Laboratory, but thats only bk i never faced ANT or HiTide.

[Bignasty197]

@ adamt

Did you find 4 Vendilion Cliques too much or was it not an issue? I've tried my list with 3 at the most and I kept drawing them when I had one in play already. I have since cut to 2 and I haven't had any problems.

[adamt]

Honestly, it's not really been an issue yet for me it always clears the way for NO and if I'm attacking with it with a few exalted triggers, it's usually a race I'll win. It's the 2nd most common way I've found myself winning as there are remarkably few flyers around.

I can only remember once having a 2nd waiting in hand which i ended up just pathing the first at the end of their turn for a land and played a second one to strip more from their hand.

More often than not I'll be sitting with 2 NO in hand.

You can always pitch Clique tO force or just cast the second one (and legend rule them) to at least get another look at their hand if you had to.

And it's always sweet to get Prog out of your hand.

I've been testing out Reid/Dave's list on MTGO and have not been missing the STP/PTE's much.



@ adamt

Did you find 4 Vendilion Cliques too much or was it not an issue? I've tried my list with 3 at the most and I kept drawing them when I had one in play already. I have since cut to 2 and I haven't had any problems.

[Koby]

Any reason why you ran Arcane Lab over Ethersworn Canonist?

[adamt]

Because it's blue and pitches to FOW.
I also wanted to diversify the hate and not have it all be artifacts or enchantments or creatures so combo couldn't just answer them with 1 card (rebuild or tranq effects or mass creature removal...)
IE I was bringing in arc lab and teeg vs combo....

[beebles]

I think with MM and how it helps Merfolk fend of removal, some additional help might be needed in this regard, as you can't rely on your Swords to clear the lane.
--------------

Thats why I am boarding in the extra Sower and Threads. Would you suggest something else? Path or something? I kind of hate path, since if you want to jam em up with a pithing needle on vial giving them free islands it lets them play through it.

[fallenphoenix]

I'm absolutly not sure how to approach this, additional P2E and your own MM might be enough I guess?
Sadly enough there is no good 2CC-removal spell in white and splashing for another color isn't the greatest vs a tempo deck.

I am pretty certain though that control magics are a little too slow if you're only relying on them + 4 Swords.

[beebles]

I'm absolutly not sure how to approach this, additional P2E and your own MM might be enough I guess?
Sadly enough there is no good 2CC-removal spell in white and splashing for another color isn't the greatest vs a tempo deck.

I am pretty certain though that control magics are a little too slow if you're only relying on them + 4 Swords.

Well there is also Jitte and SoFI to keep the fishies at bay.... We can also you know, go on the beatdown ourselves. A War monk aided by an exalted trigger or two tends to put fish in a bad spot.

[fallenphoenix]

Yeah, but all of these need some time to get going, so you need tools to help you get there.
Swords and Path have been excellent in this regard, b/c you could play around Daze with ease and take a lot of pressure off the board by killing their first lords.
With MM there is some increased danger to just get blown out by a early beats with counter-backup, so the deck might need some more adjustments for this MU.

I'm thinking, once you get to the luxury of casting 3-4 mana spells or using equipment, you're in a good spot anyway, so everything that gets you there is pretty welcome.

[Chikenbok]

So, I've been testing the a modified version of Duke's build for a while now. After making the switch away from Canadian Thresh and refusing to give up my beloved Lightning Bolts I've settled on a list that I find to be pretty damned solid - any input would be greatly appreciated, I'm sure you'll see the obvious inclusions and removals from the MD:

Creatures: 12
4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Tarmogoyf
3 x Vendillion Clique
1 x Progenitus

Instant: 17
4 x Brainstorm
1 x Fire // Ice
4 x Force of Will
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Mental Misstep

Sorcery: 11
4 x Green Sun's Zenith
4 x Natural Order
3 x Ponder

Plainswalker: 2
2 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Land: 18
2 x Flooded Strand
4 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Scalding Tarn
1 x Taiga
3 x Tropical Island
3 x Volcanic Island
1 x Forest
1 x Island
1 x Dryad Arbor

The inclusion of the Jaces can turn the deck in an entirely different direction pre-board against certain decks that run out of quick steam (usually with the aid of some burn). Not entirely sure/sold on the Fire//Ice yet so if anyone has a one of they'd suggest running over it, 'twould be much appreciated. Daze was pulled simply because the deck needs land, and misstep deals with anything attempting to get rid of my creatures.

Best,

Chiken

[Chikenbok]

Yeah, but all of these need some time to get going, so you need tools to help you get there.
Swords and Path have been excellent in this regard, b/c you could play around Daze with ease and take a lot of pressure off the board by killing their first lords.
With MM there is some increased danger to just get blown out by a early beats with counter-backup, so the deck might need some more adjustments for this MU.

I'm thinking, once you get to the luxury of casting 3-4 mana spells or using equipment, you're in a good spot anyway, so everything that gets you there is pretty welcome.

Also, if anyone is interested, red gives you a serious heads up against post-board against the fishies.

[Jigga_Tech]

So, I've been testing the a modified version of Duke's build for a while now. After making the switch away from Canadian Thresh and refusing to give up my beloved Lightning Bolts I've settled on a list that I find to be pretty damned solid - any input would be greatly appreciated, I'm sure you'll see the obvious inclusions and removals from the MD:

Creatures: 12
4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Tarmogoyf
3 x Vendillion Clique
1 x Progenitus

Instant: 17
4 x Brainstorm
1 x Fire // Ice
4 x Force of Will
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Mental Misstep

Sorcery: 11
4 x Green Sun's Zenith
4 x Natural Order
3 x Ponder

Plainswalker: 2
2 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Land: 18
2 x Flooded Strand
4 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Scalding Tarn
1 x Taiga
3 x Tropical Island
3 x Volcanic Island
1 x Forest
1 x Island
1 x Dryad Arbor

The inclusion of the Jaces can turn the deck in an entirely different direction pre-board against certain decks that run out of quick steam (usually with the aid of some burn). Not entirely sure/sold on the Fire//Ice yet so if anyone has a one of they'd suggest running over it, 'twould be much appreciated. Daze was pulled simply because the deck needs land, and misstep deals with anything attempting to get rid of my creatures.

Best,

Chiken

I really like the Reid Duke version too. I just like the simple fact the removal is never dead since you can burn your opponent with it. We have been discussing this deck in the New and Developmental area too under the Zenith-Order thread as well. I had tried Jace as well but i found it wasn't really needed. I also didn't like having four 6-drops in the deck. My list is very close to yours but I have 2/2 split for ponder/ fire/ice the 4th clique and 19th land in place of your Jace's. I haven't changed the manabase from Reid's deck but I am thinking of going to the 4th trop over the 3rd volcanic. Let me know how your testing goes and feel free to post in the other thread as well. I am looking to run this deck and GP Providence so I would appreciate as much input and testing with it as possible.

[Black Rain]

I'm absolutly not sure how to approach this, additional P2E and your own MM might be enough I guess?
Sadly enough there is no good 2CC-removal spell in white and splashing for another color isn't the greatest vs a tempo deck.

I am pretty certain though that control magics are a little too slow if you're only relying on them + 4 Swords.

There is Journey to Nowhere which is decent white removal at 2CC

[fallenphoenix]

Yep, I stumbled upon that one too and it also takes out Emrakul like a boss, but than again it dies to Explosives, Pridemage and stuff, is sorcery speed removal and you get a lot more versatility for a single colorless when you pick up O-ring instead. After all, SB-space is valuable.

Perhaps just overloading on hate is appropriate, like 2-3 dedicated slots of anti-merfolk (Llawan...) and another 2-3 of anti-aggro-stuff (Path, Monk, Finks...)

[adamt]

Metamorph works also for that purpose and also takes care of opp Prog.

E tutor sideboards have been clutch for me.

[fallenphoenix]

Hey, nice to see that someone else sees some potential in the Metamorph.

Shapeshifters have always been just a little bit too expensive to see play outside of combos but copying the best creature for 3 mana and two life seems decent in some matchups.
Sadly it's not very good (or near useless) in those MU that have a very asymmetrical strategy, like tribal or combo decks. Copying lords or lackeys doesn't quite cut it.

[DTC]

My local store is combo oriented so i switched my focus from zoo to bant. I was thinking more of a control variant, but sold off my jaces because i wasn't playing standard, but obviously jace would be a decent pick for the control aspect, but here's what i'm working with:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
1-2 Trygon Predator
2-3 Rhox War Monk
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Progenitus

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order
2 Ponder (would probably run jaces if i had them again)

4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Karakas


SB: (tuned to the local meta, but probably still needs work)
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Back to Nature
2 Sower of Temptation

Card considerations: Green Sun's Zenith, Terravore, KOTR, Mental Misstep.

Like bant usually does, the deck gets wrecked mercilessly by merfolk. Have considered boarding in paths over a stoneforge package that i usually use to combat zoo and tribal decks and makes it easier to deal with the lords with 6 removal spells.

Some combo decks are still a challenging matchup, but hoping taking out the more aggro based cards and building a control variant might help the combo side of the meta in my area. Not sure if i should run the countertop package as well or if it's too slow.

Thoughts?


Decks seen in my meta include: Storm combo, Merfolk, Enchantress, Hive Mind Combo, Sneak Show, Burn, Elf Combo, B/W Midrange Aggro almost any given week. Some players come in other weeks with things like Goblins, Zoo, Affinity, Landstill, Deadguy Ale, Junk, Team America, Belcher, Reanimator, or some homebrew combo deck.

[Koby]

I think you may want to consider solid counters versus soft counters. Mental Misstep and Spell Snare combined give you a hard counter that stops the spells very early in the game. SS actually gets better now that people are attempting to diversify their manacosts, and shy away from 1cc spells, and also run MM themselves. Spell Pierce works as a good counter against Black disruption too, and can answer free/cheap counters in war too. Dispel works better against some decks rather than others, but given that Bant usually doesn't run red and lacks REB is usually a good substitute.

This has been my counter package since NHP:
4 FOW
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
1-2 Daze, Pierce, or Counterspell - depending on the rest of the cards in the deck.

I forgo the NO/Pro plan, and stick to the aggro elements with SFM providing the equipment glue together with the low threat count. Vendilion Clique helps in this aspect, and I may end up going up to 3. The best configuration I found against Merfolk with my deck:

3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 SoFI
1 SoLS
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Path to Exile
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary (to cycle away Islands)

I think that Threads of Disloyalty might helps against Coralhelm Commander too, but I haven't tried it yet. I've been testing a 1x Cold-eyed Selkie in the SB to fetch with GSZ but in all the games I've ran it, it has never connected.

As for SB options I've found that E-Tutor + singletons with overlapping purpose help a lot. Null Rod, Tormod's Crypt, Wheels of Sun & Moon, Ethersworn Canonist, Pithing Needle, and O-Ring have all worked well for me from the SB. Gaddock Teeg helps against the new Landstill too, as long as you protect him.

[insane.zaine]

Is there anyway we could get a forum for bant and one for pro bant due to the huge differences in play style and deck design?

[Rekk]

Is there anyway we could get a forum for bant and one for pro bant due to the huge differences in play style and deck design?

I'd have to agree with you, it should include the Rug version as well. Even though im a huge fan of No BANT not NO Rug

[insane.zaine]

I'd have to agree with you, it should include the Rug version as well. Even though im a huge fan of No BANT not NO Rug

yes i would have to agree with that aswell, having white over red changes gameplay quite alot.
I personally would be much more inclined to post on the forums if i had a dedicated post per deck.
It is extremely frustrating searching through pages of irrelevant information for just a few good facts,
while its not so bad here at 16 pages when the posts reach hundred of pages it can be a huge nuisance.

[Rekk]

yes i would have to agree with that aswell, having white over red changes gameplay quite alot.
I personally would be much more inclined to post on the forums if i had a dedicated post per deck.
It is extremely frustrating searching through pages of irrelevant information for just a few good facts,
while its not so bad here at 16 pages when the posts reach hundred of pages it can be a huge nuisance.


Well if your interested in No BANT i can send you the list i've been running at my local store with quite a bit of luck

[MYDAYHASCOME]

i have been playing the stoneforge mystic bant deck for a couple of months now and love playing it and been having good success with it , i have however noticed that in the new meta there is no real way to capitalize playing with it besides playing against merfolk and aggro alot there are way too many bug, team america and combo decks floating around big tournaments to stand a chance and with the grand prix coming around the corner i had to abandon it and focus on testing with no bant. the list i have been running now is alot more stable against all the decks in the format and gives you outs to alot of the control matches and discard matches.



Here is my list

3 Vendilion Clique
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Progenitus

3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
4 mental misstep
3 spell snare

4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 plains
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor



Sideboard



3 Path to exile

1 Terastodon

2 Enlighten tutor

1 null rod

1 Energy flux

2 Pithing Needle

1 Ethersworn Cannonist

1 wheel of sun and moon

1 relic of progenitus

2 Thurn, The Last Troll

[Kellyx]

http://www.deckcheck.de/deck.php?id=23080
no goyfs , no FoWs, top1 world;p

[MWR]

no goyfs ,

I have no idea which deck you mean, the deck you link to has at least one Tarmogoyf (ok, to be honest exactly one) ;-)
Btw, no FoW, only one Goyf and also no NO!

[Koplinchen]

It's actually very cool decklist. I played very similar list with good succses. (+rhox+terravore -2sylvan library) We agreed quite a long time ago with my friend that in Zenith list only one goyf is needed. In this deck (no ponder, 2 jace) it is very long time only 2/3 or 3/4 and that is not so great.
Also we were playing with idea playing no FOW. Too often you are missing second blue card and with all the wasteland which are coming with active knight daze is often hard counter. In the big tourney everyone expects you HAVE fows.
We have replaced SOFI with SOFAF - improves combo, control matchup and gives your knight two turn clock and opponent cannot effectively block. (many green decks)

Nice list!

[JonBarber]

I worked with James on the list, and played the exact 75 to an 11th place finish. The deck is nuts. My 3 losses were to Team Italia after never drawing a 2nd white source, and twice to RUG Natural Order. The deck performed amazing, beating just about every archtype including 2-0ing Ari Lax playing UB Storm.

[chags]

I sleeved up James' list after talking to him at the GP and watching it in action. At round 4 of day 1 the 4 people playing it were a combined 18-2. Very solid list, it just never stops drawing threats. James also won a Jupiter Games event with the list beating two combo decks in the top 8 without FOW I believe.

EDIT: Jon is NO RUG that bad of a match up? Also any plans to change the deck to take into account the amount of people that will be playing it?

[conboy31]

To the players who played in the GP. Can you give some sb tips for various common matchups. IE folk, storm, ichorid, etc.

[JonBarber]

Jon is NO RUG that bad of a match up? Also any plans to change the deck to take into account the amount of people that will be playing it?

Yeah, its pretty tough. You don't really have any way to stop natural order maindeck other than daze or sniping it with clique and the deck has no good way to answer progenitus. Their burn keeps you off your mana guys which are super important. Natural Order was definitely one thing we were aware was going to be tough to beat without force of will.

As for sideboarding tips

Storm: +1 Bog, +1 Dispel, +1 Teeg, +1 MM, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Sylvan Safekeeper (protects teeg from bounce)
-1 Maze of ith, -2 Stoneforge Mystic, -2 Pridemage, -1 Jitte, -1 Sword, -1 Sylvan Library

Team America: +1 Dispel, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Sylvan Safekeeper, +1 Thrun
-3 Daze, -2 Pridemage, -1 Jitte (unless they're playing Bob)

Junk: +1 Bog, +1 Path, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Sylvan Safekeeper, +1 Thrun
-3 Daze, -2 Pridemage, -2 Mental Misstep

Merfolk:+1 Path, +2 Rhox Warmonk, +1 Sylvan Safekeeper, +1 Thrun, +1 Jitte
-2 Jace, -3 Daze, -1 Sword

Landstill: +1 Dispel, +2 Grip, +1 MM, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Sylvan Safekeeper, +1 Thrun
-2 Stoneforge, -1 Jitte, -1 Sword, -3 Daze, -1 Maze of Ith (unless they're playing batterskull), -1 Goyf

Dredge: +1 Bog, +1 Teeg, +1 MM, +3 Spell Pierce
-2 Stonefore, -2 Jace, -1 Jitte, -1 Sword

Obviously this is very rough and general. Lots of things could change how you board, IE whether or not they play around daze, if they're running a more creature/spell heavy list, the cards they're bringing in against you, etc. The future of deck is still pretty unknown. The deck was definitely meta game'd for what we expected the GP to be, and where it goes in the future depends on how the meta reacts.

[luudes]

played in a small tourney over the weekend with Thrun in the SB. This card is insane against the various landstill control decks. BUG still can make you sac him but asides from that once he lands on a balanced board the game is won. I noticed him in the SB of some GP decks and then the SB guide just posted, noticing that Thrun was brought in for most matchups. I will be playing 2-3 in the future. Also, I run vexing shusher out of the board (Ive been playing the RUG NO version) and that has been awesome in my limited testing. I have never seen other lists with shusher but combo playing zenith seems like a good home. my $0.02

[Kellyx]

Could someone please link video of gp providence if its posible?
Also would be cool to know how does this deck play:
Should we just pressure oponent as much as posible going all-in?or may be we got to play deffensive putting creatures only when we can cover them with a counterspell?
and etc

Actualy i dont get how could a deck w/o FoW and NO , and with one goyf perfom so well:S

[nayon]

Could someone please link video of gp providence if its posible?
Also would be cool to know how does this deck play:
Should we just pressure oponent as much as posible going all-in?or may be we got to play deffensive putting creatures only when we can cover them with a counterspell?
and etc

Actualy i dont get how could a deck w/o FoW and NO , and with one goyf perfom so well:S

From what I saw of the footage, he played very, very aggressively. I would have held back at some points where he didn't, and it probably won him the tournament.

[Shimi]

Could someone please link video of gp providence if its posible?
Also would be cool to know how does this deck play:
Should we just pressure oponent as much as posible going all-in?or may be we got to play deffensive putting creatures only when we can cover them with a counterspell?
and etc

Actualy i dont get how could a deck w/o FoW and NO , and with one goyf perfom so well:S

Because T2 KotR >> Goyf and you also have counterspell to stop StP,Jace.. if they kills you creature you replace them.. you have a bunch + 4 GSZ and Jace/Sylvan as CA engine.The deck seems very good except the fact that it is dead to combo unless it get really agressive with pierces and dazes combined with KotR+ wastes or Teeg + safekeeper.

[ScatmanX]

The deck seems very good except the fact that it is dead to combo unless it get really agressive with pierces and dazes combined with KotR+ wastes or Teeg + safekeeper.
It is nice that the combo player will never think that this deck had 0 FoWs...

[Shimi]

It is nice that the combo player will never think that this deck had 0 FoWs...

But when the time is called the combo player will go for it and there won't be a FoW to save the day but the fow mind trick + MM at rituals/cantrips can give it time to win.

[Mark Sun]

Actualy i dont get how could a deck w/o FoW and NO , and with one goyf perfom so well:S

The deck is pretty well thought out. Basically preboarded for the non-degenerate decks where you don't need Force of Will in order to win. Equipment breaks creature stalemates as well.

[jimirynk]

I built the deck to be best positioned in the meta, the numbers might look weird but it's so I'd have the tools to face anything I would see at the GP.
I went 13-1-1 in the swiss losing only to 43 lands in game 3 to a turn 2 smoke stacks with him on the play.

[Koby]

Was there any rational for Birds of Paradise over Noble Hierarch? Is it simply for 'Flying' + equipment?

[jimirynk]

I wanted a flyer I could gsz for to block flyers(commander/stalker) and carry equipment over mom and etched champion.

[Kellyx]

Could u explain the point of haveing spell pierce in siedboard?:S
Early game the deck has no mana left cuz of agressive play and later it wont be hard for an oponent to pay additional 2.
Why not to get tormod crypts instead of it?Considering dredge is counter to this deck.
Or trygon predator...or something else

[Koplinchen]

I also had troubles with moms etc. I solved it with inclusion of single Terravore maindeck. Have you considered this possibility. It never let me down. It is great!

[blueneverfails]

Looks like a neat deck, I wouldn't play it cuz I love prog too much, but anyone who is freaking out because of the single goyf, don't fret. I have been playing with only 3 goyfs in my noprog deck since the GP last summer and made it to day 2 no prob(i was like 1 of 3 that made it to day 2). Personally any deck with green sun zenith should never run more than 3. The only creature I run 4 of is the noble heirarch.

[DragoFireheart]

I wanted a flyer I could gsz for to block flyers(commander/stalker) and carry equipment over mom and etched champion.

Trygon Predator?

[chags]

Trygon Predator?

Costs 4 as opposed to 2 off GSZ...either requires taking something out of the deck, easier to replace a hierarch with another mana dork that just happens to serve this purpose too I imagine.

[Koby]

I would consider Scryb Ranger before Trygon Predator. Bonus points for being Jace-proof, and having a useful ability with mana-dorks, KotR, and in general, saving your lands from Wasteland. Also, helps to clear Islands from the board when you're up against Merfolk, which she can block ad infinitum.

[troopatroop]

Trygon Predator?

Trygon Predator doesn't tap for mana, costs 3, and GSZ for it is pretty bad. Birds doubles as accel in addition to those applications.

[blueneverfails]

Looks like we got the boot from the decks to beat section, oh well that will change. On a curious note, has anyone tried putting counterbalance back in the no prog lists? I have not taken them out even with everyone telling me to do so and I'm still winning.

[Kellyx]

Looks like we got the boot from the decks to beat section, oh well that will change. On a curious note, has anyone tried putting counterbalance back in the no prog lists? I have not taken them out even with everyone telling me to do so and I'm still winning.

NO is slowest combo.It adds you one more way to win.If you have counterbalance+SDT pack in you deck, NO becomes the only way to win.Deck becomes too deffensive.
Playing hive mind or painted stone will be just better if you like control+combo.

[Kellyx]

Does someone got any ideas about putting NO pack in this agro bant list?

[blueneverfails]

no is only 4 cards, so its really not hard to put in any list with lots of green creatures, and your claim of having counterbalance and no in the same deck means no is the only kill is false, I run a list right now that is considered a bant aggro list by most and it has both still in it.

[Mirrislegend]

I understand the drawbacks, but I'm taking Trygon Predator for a spin anyways. I'm sick of having to expend infinite resources to deal with Stoneforge decks.

That brings my curve up on the high side. I'm considering trying to squeeze in one BoP (in addition to the 4x Hierarchs) to help with that.

[fallenphoenix]

Here my pretty outdated deck that I took for a spin anyway, since my Jaces&Deeds didn't arrive on time.

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Quasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Sower of Temptation

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Mana Leak
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Windsweapt Heath
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland

SB:
2 Rhox Warmonk
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Jötun Grunt
2 Nature's Claim
2 Trygon Predator
2 Engineered Explosives


I wanted to try some new cards so 1 Venser made it in, as a replacement for missing Jaces, as well as a miser's Sower.
No Missteps yet, as I don't see myself buying them for ridiculous prices and we haven't drafted that much yet.

It was only a small tournament/testing group of about 12 people, I won vs Dredge(2-1), Reanimator (2-1) and BW-Knights (more a casual deck than anything else), I lost vs Zoo (1-2) with Phyrexian Metamorphs.

Some conclusions on cards:

Stoneforge Mystic was better than the last time I tested with him, I might add a third.
Especially vs Zoo and Dredge I always wanted as many Mystics as I could get (apart from the narrow hate vs Dredge).

I also wanted a second Jitte more than the first Sword in some games, as having a second copy to tutor for if the first gets destroyed is pretty important.

Sword of FaF wasn't really hot, pro-green was really good vs Zoo though, but it could as well have been another one (and granted, any other Sword, especially Body and Mind, would have probably won me G3 vs Zoo).

Venser was kinda cool, I pulled off some Karakas shenanigans in 2 different games. I noticed he's also really cool with SoFaF, if you can get the two going (bounce/discard), although Jace is probably just muuuch better.

Metamorph was pretty much outstanding, I didn't expect him to be THAT good, but he made some pretty big splashes everytime someone played him, much to my surprise.

In G3 vs Dredge I had a board of Crypt, Explosives, Knight and needed to blow the crypt on my turn, Metamorph in my hand (copying Crypt) made sure that my opponent couldn't pull off any nonsense like dredge into 3x Moeba, Dread Return, (insert ridiculous fatty) on his turn.

vs Zoo I didn't draw him, but my opponent had his own copies to kill my Jittes which won him the first game. It's easily one of the best cards he could have had in any given situation.

If I were to play the Deck again I probably would be cutting back on the Pridemages (they don't really do that much in my metagame) and add some Fauna Shamans and a single Metamorph maindeck, at least for kicks.

But then again, I foresee myself playing Landstill for quite sometime now.

[blueneverfails]

Dont add Fauna Shaman, Add Green Sun Zenith if you want a way to get creatures. I understand the fauna will get everything, but with it being a creature, it takes an extra turn to use, needs a creature in hand, and can be killed easily, gsz puts it straight in play for an extra mana.

[LostButSeeking]

Hey guys. I played bant for the first time at a tournament yesterday, and I wanted to share my experiences with you all, so I can get some advice. I didn't win, but I thought I did fairly well and I really liked the deck. My current legacy decks are Goblins, TES and Dredge (I'm almost finished with Merfolk--four mutavaults short). The problem with these three decks is that the hate pieces for them are very common--it's not unusual to see sideboards with four Engineered plague, four chalice of the void and four tormod's crypt to start off. And while the decks are certainly powerful enough to beat some hate, I find it's very tedious to have four or six sideboard slots specifically against your deck EVERY match. So, Bant.


3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
3 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Rhox War Monk
4 Noble Hierarch

SB: 1 Rhox War Monk
SB: 4 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Trygon Predator
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Lightning Greaves


Like I said, this was my first time playing the deck. I just got my Green Sun Zeniths (which I decided against running) and my fourth mental misstep that day. I'm a little unsure about the list. I think it performed reasonably well, and none of the cards seemed really bad or anything. I did get a LOT of hands where I drew both of my pieces of equipment, making SFM pretty terrible 1/2s for 2. I think I'm going to try to get my hands on a third piece from somewhere--a second jitte, a second SoFI or a SoLS, probably.

Match 1: Dark Horizons.
Game 1 was everything you didn't want to happen happening at once. I flooded pretty bad, and to compound it, he hymned me on turn four. My hand was two lands (which I didn't need) and two business spells--Clique and SoFI. He of course pulled the business and then beat me to death with a Knight of the Reliquary.

Sideboarding was a bit of a mystery to me. Usually, there are things in my sideboard that are SO much better than things in the main that it's really obvious what I need. I think that this game went -2 Spell Snare -2 Ponder +2 Path +1 Lightning Greaves (which was in here for the Lands matchup, and he played Maze of Ith) +1 Rhox War Monk (he had a lot of kill spells and I wanted more critters).

Game 2 was LONG. A Lot of back and forth, a lot of "please I needs Stp right now" topdeck into Stp. Rhox War Monk with SoFI and Greaves with two Hierarch as back up gained me a LOT of life as he chump blocked. He eventually vindicated the SoFI and landed an 8/8 Knight of the Reliquary, but I was at 39 life or something and drew Jace, who brainstormed into a path to exile for me.

Game 3 went to time, which was a bummer, because I had an equipment in play, two dudes on the board and a clique on top of my library, facing his creatureless board.

0-0-1

Match 2: 5 color bant?

This deck was odd. His manabase was entirely dual lands and fetches. I think maybe it was his take on next level blue? But it played vindicate and a lot of wierd things . . .

Game 1
He played sower of temptation, taking my RWM, but I landed SFM, got SoFI, sent his birds of paradise farming, shot the Sower with my sword and he condeded.

I honestly don't remember what I sideboarded. -2 ponder +2 Path to Exile, I think.

Game 2
He fetched up a Jitte with his SFM, I played the jitte I had drawn, he plays his jitte, I spell snare and he mental missteps. :rolleyes: Anyway, following this shenanigans I got a creature with SoFI on it and rode it to victory. He tried to use Jace to save himself, but with a pro-blue creature on the table, Jace was reduced to the most expensive brainstorm in history. Cut cut cut.

1-0-1

Match 3: Enchantress
I've played against a lot of enchantress. It's really popular in our meta, and I've played in a tournament where 40% of the people there were playing enchantress. (sidenote: enchantress v enchantress mirror match may be the most boring game of magic possible. It generally comes down to who can draw the fewest cards. Wow).

Game 1 I forced his turn 2 argothian only to see a turn 3 argothian. :cry: He proceeded to get two more enchantress effects, oblivion ring my creatures and then replenish. I conceded.

I sideboarded in the K. Grips and Trygon predators who proceeded to do diddly.

Game 2 I forced his argothian only to see a turn three city of solitude and a turn four enchantress' Presence. He played back to back sterling grove to protect his cards from my trygon predator and then drew some more enchantress effects to feed his Solitary confinement. I lost.

I cannot tell you how frustrating I find this deck to play against. It's VERY common here, and I don't think I've ever won a match against it without playing combo (which admittedly is a bye). I talked to some friends and I've bought four harmonic convergence as hate. We'll see how that goes. . .

Match 4: UGb NoShow

Game 1 I cliqued his intuition and he immediately drew another intuition. Gah. He intuitioned for GSZ, which fetched him a Dryad Arbor. I forced his forth coming Natural Order, sworded his other dryad arbor and beat him to death.

Sideboard: -4 Swords, +4 spell pierce

Game 2 I felt like a blue deck. I drew only blue cards--cliques, forces, spell pieces, brainstorm and a jitte, and he was having land trouble. He'd turned up his Boseiju, who shelters all and an ancient tomb, but he was light on color sources and the Clique was coming for him. The tomb and the boseiju eating his life total didn't help either, and when he finally played Natural Order for Progenitus, he was at 7 life staring at a clique carrying a jitte with two counters on it.

All in all I had a really great time. 2-1-1 isn't a bad result, and the guy I drew with ended up going 3-0-1, winning the prize money. I turned a bunch of standard and bulk rares into legacy playables. Except for my enchantress hate not doing its job, I even liked all my sideboard cards. I didn't bring in the tormod's crypts but let's face it--if I take them out I'll play four dredge decks in a row next tournament.

[Bignasty197]

I think Knight of the Reliquary is too good not to run. Possibly -1 Stoneforge, -2 RWM for +3 Knights?

[blueneverfails]

well some tweaks to your deck would be to stick with the equipment you have, don't add a third to the deck, and you drawing both of them is just bad luck.
Next since you run 4 wasteland, you should cut it to 3 and change your lands to have the knight of the reliquary toolbox of karakas, maze and wastelands. With that obv you need knight of the reliquary which I would deff cut 1 stoneforge, and either the spell snare, or the rhox war monks. Also I have found and a couple of high profile players also noticed that sylvan library is awesome with this deck, so take out the 2 ponders and add sylvan librarys.

On you sideboard, its up to you, but I have always been a fan of 3 paths just cuz you can bring it in against goblins, merfolk, zoo, maverick, and mirror.

[useL]

Recently played a tournament where I ran into Reanimate. What can this deck to to a deck that shows up Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur round 2 and then counters your removal?

The list I played was the same that won the GP recently (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6208&iddeck=44996) . Any suggestions as to how you should sideboard against reanimate? I brought in Spell Pierce and an extra Path to Exile and Bog of course.

He just completely wrecked me stopping me from a finals game.

[rocketrae21]

I played a Bant Aggro list at the Jupiter Games Invitational and only lost 3 games in 7 rounds. There will eventually be a report going on Jupiter's site, but I will post my list here now.



4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Squadron Hawk
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Spell Snare
3 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith

SB:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Submerge
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Krosan Grip
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Tormod's Crypt

[Bignasty197]

I played a Bant Aggro list at the Jupiter Games Invitational and only lost 3 games in 7 rounds. There will eventually be a report going on Jupiter's site, but I will post my list here now.



4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Squadron Hawk
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Spell Snare
3 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
1 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith

SB:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Submerge
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Krosan Grip
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Tormod's Crypt


Did you find having 2 basic Islands a problem against Merfolk? I always preferred to have the 1 Island because I didn't necessarily have to play it. I always used Knight to get rid of my blue duals to prevent Islandwalking.

[rocketrae21]

I actually never faced Merfolk all day so I don't know if it would have come up. The next time I play this list I am going to be running a Karakas in place of one of the Islands but didn't think to do it for this tournament.

[ShiftyKapree]

Played NO FOW Bant yesterday in SCG Baltimore and went 5-3 losing too Bug still, Hivemind combo and NO RUG on a topdeck lightning bolt FTW and had no MM. I cut the MM from the SB with a Life from the Loam hoping to improve my match-up against landstill decks which was pleased from it.

[Bignasty197]

Has anyone had experience with Edric, Spymaster of Trest? It has been pretty good for me as a 1-of to Zenith for against control, although he may be win-more. I admit, I have had limited testing.

[Mirrislegend]

I started off with Caleb Durwald's list. The deck evolved a lot since then!

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Trygon Predator
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare

3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
1 (I forget, it's off the top of my head at work)

SB:
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Llawan
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Submerge
3 Phrexian Revoker
4 Spell Pierce
1 (forgot. Maybe 1x Rhox War Monk?)

Construction notes:
-Looks like I should cut blue and just play Maverick, right? But Vendilion Clique, Brainstorm, Trygon Predator, Spell Snare, and Spell Pierce have all been consistently awesome
-FoW is only 2 from the original 4, due to the blue card count. Honestly, I'm considering cutting them, probably for Mental Missteps
-SoFaF: I cut SoFI because it was consistently a Win More card for me (If I was losing to Merfolk on their aggro-lord draw, it didn't save me. Too slow for goblins MU). I chose SoFaF over SoBaM because I'm not as afraid of Jace as I am of all that friggin removal in the Hymn decks
-Manabase needs fixing, yes, I know. Assuming I should be able to trade my Polluted Delta for at least 2 Windswept Heath, here's the ideal base:
2 Trop
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
4 Misty
3 Windswept
1 Flooded
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith (or Horizon Canopy. Can't decide)

-Phyrexian Revoker is HOT. Ever beat Mono Brown (often an atrocious MU for non Vial aggro decks) with Revoker on Grim Monolith? It's very satisfying.
- The 1x BoP is Hierarch #5. People (correctly) love shooting and MMing Hierarch. Also, the redundancy is fine, with GSZ often aimed at 4+ and people loving to hit Stoneforge to try to cripple Batterskull
-Considering taking a page from Maverick and playing 1x Scryb Sprite. A nice tool against Jace that's GSZable. Dunno what to take out.
-GSZ is awesome. Should I be playing a 4th? What should I take out for it?
-No JtMS. I cut him. He's playing an entirely different game than the rest of the deck. The classic argument of "JtMS is for the occasional MU where you have to grind out the win" is just BS: any grinding game is either against a control deck that will do it better than you, or is late game against a critter deck where any topdeck of GSZ, KotR, or Stoneforge will put you way ahead.

I'm mainly looking for general feedback, help with the new manabase, and advice on the counterspell slots.

[Bignasty197]

@ Mirrislegend

In the current meta with all the Stoneforge decks running around, has the 1 Pridemage been enough? I can't bring myself to run less than 3 main.

[Mirrislegend]

Casting QPridemage or GSZ for 2, just to blow it immediately as an answer, is an ENORMOUS tempo killer. I've found that using Pridemage as an emergency button is appropriate. Otherwise, bait removal and counters to allow Trygon to stick, and use it to blow up every Aether Vial, Jitte, Batterskull, Standstill (heck yea!), Pernicious Deed (boo yah!), Pithing Needle, Lodestone Golem, Blood Moon, and Moat :)

Yes, I'd like a second Pridemage, but only because of this case: if I start with one in my opening hand, I'd like to be able to play it without worry. 1 Hierarch + 1 Pridemage = 4 power beater; not perfect, but a legitimate starter. I'd like to be able to make that play without worrying that a Bolt will ruin my Naturalize effect.

[Kamulium]

Due the rise in numbers of combo in our local metagame I'm now playing with the list of James R. (the one from GP Providence) with a few tweeks of my own;
I'm using FoW because of the combo decks instead of Daze. I don’t know if I should include Daze maindeck because of all the Hive Mind going on, but for now I feel like the deck needs a hard counterspell. Our local top8 (found HERE (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6453)) included six combodecks (one ANT, one Cephalid Breakfast, two Hive Minds, one Show and Tell and an Aeon Bridge). That’s a lot and I feel like committing more of my sideboard against it.
- Because of my unhealthy love for Eternal Witness I'm mising it maindeck. It's great for GSZ in the late game if I’m running out of gas or in need of StoP etc. I like Sylvan Library and I feel there should be two of them too, but both drawing multiples and drawing it from the top under pressure sucks, so Eternal Witness is in the slot of one Library.
- My sideboard mises Life From The Loam. It seems good against all the control durdling around - Not only does it make the late-game Brainstorms into Ancestrals when shuffling away a bunch of lands, it plays nice with the Wastelands and my miser Horizon Canopy that I'm running in the slot of one fetchland.
- I run Jitte maindeck, but since it’s so greedy with mana and it’s such a blowout when the dude gets removed in response to suiting it up, I sometimes feel I should try Batterskull instead. The problem with Batterskull is that it’s super dependant on SFM and I’m only running two copies of it, so I’d like to hear pros and cons since I’m indecisive.
- I’d like to run a third copy of Qasali Pridemage and I’m trying to find a slot for it perhaps in the sideboard. I think two copies is the correct amount of it in the maindeck for the reasons discussed before in this thread.
-I run two copies of Meddling Mage in the sideboard to help with the combo. They’ve done decent work. I don’t know how good they are in a tournament in which you don’t know what people are playing since people tend to play some weird cards in their sideboards, but naming parts of combo and/or removal is decent. I'm thinking about switching these to Ethersworn Canonists, but they don't help against SnT or Hive Mind (well, I guess they buy one turn against Hive Mind).

The deck struggles against fast aggro sometimes - our local meta has always a few Affinity/Goblin decks and sometimes I feel like adding RWM or another Goyf MD, but there's just no space, since the three KotR are just awesome.

Shout-out to James Rynkiewicz! Such an awesome build you've done and I love to play it!

[jimirynk]

Shout-out to James Rynkiewicz! Such an awesome build you've done and I love to play it!

<3

[Kamulium]

<3

Dude! Any plans on visiting CRAAAAZY TALK? I'd love to hear your thoughts about all of this.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

What's a modern Bant deck that plays Force of Will look like nowadays?

I've been playing the No Force deck with moderate success, but there's a bit too much combo in my meta for comfort.

Is Force of Will a crutch in this scenario? Or does it warrant play?

[Bignasty197]

I've been playing the "old school" NO Bant with Forces. I tried a bunch of different builds with Zenith, a Mystic package, NoFoW and I even experimented with a Maverick-ish build but I keep coming back to Natural Order because its awesome. That, and I don't like playing without Forces. There is too much random crap in my meta for me to just not have Force of Will. My current list for reference:

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Natural Order
3 Ponder
3 Mental Misstep
3 Daze
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus
1 Sylvan Library

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Horizon Canopy

I run a Stoneforge package for the Merfolk matchup in the board.

[loop]

What's a modern Bant deck that plays Force of Will look like nowadays?

I've been playing the No Force deck with moderate success, but there's a bit too much combo in my meta for comfort.

Is Force of Will a crutch in this scenario? Or does it warrant play?

I've been tweaking this list for a while now :

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Trygon Predator
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

General notes: GSZ is pretty good, I'm just lacking space. KotR is by far the best threat of the list, and I wouldn't ever play less than 4.
Tarmogoyf is a good threat, but he's really just there as KotR #5 or the odd case where I just have 3 mana up and need to GSZ for a threat right now. I'm considering cutting it altogether to move my SB ooze there (which is pretty awesome vs anything grave-related obviously, but can also stand its own vs opposing goyfs/kotrs), freeing up a slot for the 4th NO in the board.

I've been liking sideboard NO a lot, I usually board into it in the green match ups which have very few outs (Maverick, Zoo, Bant...)
It's also the reason why I chose to run SoFaF maindeck. I usually board SFM out to bring NO in, in those match ups, so as to keep FoW available for the speedbumb (preventing them from racing NO), or the trumps vs NO (force, aven mindcensor, gaddock teeg, etc.).
So SFM is still very relevant pre-board with SoFaF being able to dominate the board, and then it gets boarded out for the NO package.
Alternatively, I just swap SoFaF for SoFI in the tribal match ups, while bringing one more SFM.

The rest is pretty self explanatory, except maybe the Sowers which are honestly flex slots, I just like bringing 2 decent blue cards in vs Merfolks to replace my jaces, and appreciate the splash damage vs other decks (MUD, S&T, whatever.)

To answer your second question, I still feel FoW is a very powerful tool. There are simply too many plays worth pitching an extra card to stop (Deed, NO, Jace, storm, Perish, etc.).
I can understand how cutting in can be enticing (no CD, less design restrictions with the blue count being now meaningless, opening up some deck space for cards such as Library...), but I still find it too useful to cut. I don't mind boarding it out in the match ups where it is indeed weak.

Hope that helps!

[jimirynk]

Dude! Any plans on visiting CRAAAAZY TALK? I'd love to hear your thoughts about all of this.

I don't know what CRAAAAZY TALK is.

[Kamulium]

I don't know what CRAAAAZY TALK is.


Oh. It's the podcast Jonathan Medina is running. He said something about trying to have you as a guest there.

[The Duck!!]

This is the current list that I'm running. The current meta where I'm playing,pre-m12,are mostly UW Stone-Blade,merfolks and gobs. Still tweaking my SB though.

4 noble hierarch
3 knight of the reliquary
3 tarmogoyf
2 vendilion clique
2 stoneforge mystic
2 qasali pridemage
1 scryb ranger
1 eternal witness
1 edric,spymaster of trest
4 force of will
4 mental misstep
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
3 green sun's zenith
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of light and shadow
4 misty rainforest
3 flooded strand
3 wasteland
3 tropical island
2 tundra
1 gaea's cradle
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 dryad arbor
1 forest
1 plains

SB :
3 spell pierce
2 choke
2 pithing needle
1 sword of fire and ice
1 green sun's zenith
1 gaddock teeg
1 thrun,the last troll
1 bojuka bog
1 dryad arbor
2 krosan grip

any comments or suggestion would be appriciated.:) thanks!

[Gui]

So, a friend of mine is playing James Rynkiewicz' decklist, not a single card different, and keep asking me for good sideboard plans or something written about it.

I told him James wouldn't tell me even if I had a clue on how to find him and ask, cuz to me it looks so much like "take out the worse cards, and add the better good ones", but I thought that maybe someone here could be willing to share some experience?

Even a small breakdown as "Aggro, Combo, Control" or "Tribals, Storm, Mirror, Stoneforge, Goyfs" could help

Thanks ^^

For reference, as well known, his decklist:
// Maindeck
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Mental Misstep
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

// Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dispel
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mental Misstep
1 Path to Exile
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

[John Cox]

Against random aggro you want Jitte and Rhox warmonk. These are some of the best cards to deal with zoo and Jitte is especially good against goblins. (path can come in against the rock/junk/ BG/x deck)

Bojuka Bog is a token card against graveyard decks, (fetch it with your knights at instant speed), It also comes in against decks that rely heavily on knights and goyfs (maverick/aggro loam/ bant/ etc). Its good against reanimator too.

Gaddock Teeg is anti storm (get him with zenith) as are spell pierce and dispel (these can all be used against other decks like Spiral Tide), spell pierce will hit more targets and come in against stacks.deck and other decks but dispel is definitive (and better against tide) .
Thrun, the last troll is good against landstill and jace.
Krosan grip is there to deal mainly with CounterBalance, but it gets used though for other things.
Hope this helps.

[Mirrislegend]

The SCG Seattle Legacy 13th place list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=39811


I LOVE the inclusion of Spellstutter Sprite. Scavenging Ooze is pretty hot too.

But imo, this deck has a MAJOR whole. It's very lacking in raw power. How does it beat Zoo? Merfolk? Goblins? How does it race control or apply pressure to combo? It's 1x MD Jitte (w/ 2x Stoneforge to find it) is simply not enough, in my eyes.

Anyone have more insight into this techy new build?

[Bignasty197]

At first glance it looks poorly constructed, but it did just get 13th.

Having 2 Stoneforge with only 1 equipment in the whole 75 seems pointless. I would have liked to see:
-2 SFM, +1 Jitte, +1 Knight of the Reliquary

I also feel like it needs to fit a Tarmogoyf in there somewhere.

[PanderAlexander]

Spellstutter Sprite was awesome in his deck, he must have been expecting a lot of SnT Hive Mind which was the case. It counters your copy of a Pact and doesn't trigger Hive Mind.

[Philipp2293]

SS also seems pretty hot with Edric. I think I might give this deck a go.

[majikal]

Spellstutter Sprite seems like it's intended as some kind of tech for a heavy Hivemind meta. It's not so great in a vacuum and it never has been. I didn't even like it when I could fetch it with SotF. I'm not crazy about the sideboard of that deck either.

I'd rather just play better creatures in the main and battle Hivemind with Angel's Grace.

Scavenging Ooze, on the other hand, is the real deal. That card is nuts.

[Koby]

SSS seems pretty good in the current metagame, but it doesn't really address the double/triple Pact hands that Hive Mind may sometimes have. Angel's Grace is indeed much better. I would run a combination of both - say 2 SSS maindeck and 3-4 Angel's Grace sideboard.

[PanderAlexander]

One card I wanted to bring up for discussion was Bant Charm. I used it in my list here:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6488

In that tournament, it helped me kill Batterskulls and equipment, get rid of opponent's Knight of Reliquary and Dark Confidant, and counter a Intuition against SnT Hive Mind. Honestly, the real reason I ran the card was because for fear of Cursed Totem which shuts of practically all the creatures including hiearchs and Quasali. The card's mana costs seems restrictive, but everytime I used it there wasn't a problem with GSZ and Noble Hiearch acceleration. I already know there are better cards to put in that slot, but I liked the versatility of the card in the current meta.

[sclabman]

Top 4 at Knightware with this list.

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Mental Misstep
2x Tarmogoyf
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Vendilion Clique

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Wasteland
3x Windswept Heath
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
2x Savannah
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Maze of Ith
1x Forest
1x Karakas
1x Dryad Arbor

Sb
2x Krosan Grip
1x Tower of the Magistrate
2x Tormod's Crypt
4x Stifle
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Submerge


Thoughts: Submerge is amazing at what it does. Stifle and Daze did great against Hive Mind and various combos, Ooze is much better than goyf and I will be running 2 ooze and 1 goyf instead of what I have now, possibly cutting goyf entirely. I love the consistency of the deck. I mulliganed maybe 3 times the entire tournament, if that.

[Koby]

Hey Nick, congrats! What did you play against today?

[sclabman]

Thanks! I played against a Protean Hulk combo Deck, Hive Mind twice in a row, Elves (not sure which flavor, sideboard Vengevine maybe?), NO Rug, draw with Shai, then Ben with Reanimator in top 8 and top 4 split. My loss was to Adam with Hive Mind due to a horrid misplay on my part in game one (I had the win but dazed by returning a land instead of tapping for it, setting me back to 4 lands and unable to pay for Negation) and then he sealed the deal game two with some Pacts and Hive Mind.

[Koby]

@ sclabman - Did you ever consider playing Jace in the list? If so, why did you not include it? From my experience with such a list, is that you wanted some sort of "bomb", be it SFM or PWers. I see you don't play either. How did you arrive at the list that you played?

[sclabman]

I did very minimal testing with Jace prior to the tournament. Up until then I hadn't considered him in my list and I didn't want to make the change when I thought of trying him out the night before the big day. However, after playing some games with him, Jace TMS is damn good in this deck and I need to find a slot for him. My initial impression is to just cut 2 goyfs for 2 Jaces. However, I like having a certain threshold of green beaters to GSZ for... maybe -1 Daze -1 Goyf.

[lordofthepit]

I'm looking at taking apart my Zoo deck to build NoFOW. My impression is that it's fairly strong against the format, with no terrible matchups but very few cakewalks either.

How does the NO RUG matchup usually play out? It seems like Wastelands, Knights, and Swords trump them if they are forced to play fair, but postboard, you have to deal with REBs so you generally can't win the battle over Natural Order.

Second (unrelated) question--would the inclusion of a Stoneforge Mystic or a Natural Order package change this into a substantially different archetype? If so, where should discussion go? What are your personal preferences (addressing this to the more experienced Bant players)?

[Bignasty197]

The list I am playing at the moment runs 4 Mystics, 1 Batterskull and 1 Sword of Feast and Famine. Having an exalted Batterskull is pretty awesome against basically everything I play against. I took out Natural Order because I got bored with it and nobody was surprised anymore when I played it. That, and everybody and their mom plays Perish now.

[sclabman]

Against NO Rug, Knight of the Reliquary is our major trump card. Progenitals is theirs. Target their mana creatures with your removal and wasteland them to keep them off of 2GG. Put up enough pressure to make attacking with the Genital Monster dangerous. Clique aggressively. If you play against NO Rug a lot, sb some Metamorphs.

I don't like Stoneforge because you invest a lot of resources into a minimal effect. Sure, sometimes it can be game-winning against Merfolk or Goblins, but an equal amount of times it does nothing as they run over you a turn faster than you can set up the Jitte or whatever.

[UnsungHero]

Any Sideboard room for possibly including Blue Elemental blast/Hydroblast for NO Rug matchups, since Its becoming more of a popular deck? BEB/Hydroblast can also be sided in against decks with blood moon effects and Price of Progress, which both can really do some damage to this deck. It is also spot removal against Grim Lavamancer,Magus of the Moon, and Goblins (if in your meta). Any one find BEB/Hydroblast to be useful in their sideboard?

[chags]

Any Sideboard room for possibly including Blue Elemental blast/Hydroblast for NO Rug matchups, since Its becoming more of a popular deck? BEB/Hydroblast can also be sided in against decks with blood moon effects and Price of Progress, which both can really do some damage to this deck. It is also spot removal against Grim Lavamancer,Magus of the Moon, and Goblins (if in your meta). Any one find BEB/Hydroblast to be useful in their sideboard?

I've tried BEB in the past but was never impressed by it. Against no rug none of their red cards are very good against us so it ins't much of a concern...just have to play smart with your goyfs and kotr. I'm having trouble deciding between bant aggro or bant no pro for scg Boston.

[Artlee]

Any Sideboard room for possibly including Blue Elemental blast/Hydroblast for NO Rug matchups, since Its becoming more of a popular deck? BEB/Hydroblast can also be sided in against decks with blood moon effects and Price of Progress, which both can really do some damage to this deck. It is also spot removal against Grim Lavamancer,Magus of the Moon, and Goblins (if in your meta). Any one find BEB/Hydroblast to be useful in their sideboard?

The only card you mention that's being played much at this momemt is Grim Lavamancer. Magus and goblins are not seen that much in general. Price of Progress is only used in burn decks, and if you want a solution vs burn Rhox War Monk is better and can be used in any aggro matchup too, including Goblins.

[Arrg]

This is my first attempt at Pro-Bant and would be my first Legacy deck, how does it look? What should I put in the sideboard? I have no idea about meta so I'd assume all comers.

Draw - 8

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

Counters - 11

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce

Removal - 4

4 Swords to Plowshares

Dudes - 15
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Combo - 4
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

Lands - 21

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

[Artlee]

If you don't know the meta it's all about having the versatile cards. I took a list from Caleb Durward and changed SoFF and Mirran Crusader with graveyard hate, as dredge and reanimator has gained popularity since his article.

1 Sower of Temptation (Knight of the reliquary)
2 Tormod's Crypt (Reanimate - Dredge - Loam)
2 Relic of Progenitus (Reanimate - Dredge - Loam)
1 Gaddock Teeg (Dredge - Jace/FoW - Natural Order [Remember to side out you own])
3 Pithing Needle (My favorite SB card. Works against so much. At this time mostly vs Jace or Grim Lavamancer)
2 Spell Pierce (UW Control - Hive Mind - Simply any creature light deck)
1 Trygon Predator (Stoneforge - Affinity)
3 Submerge (Maverick - Team America - Bant - NO RUG [Use as resp. to opponent cracking fetch :cool:])

[chags]

This is my first attempt at Pro-Bant and would be my first Legacy deck, how does it look? What should I put in the sideboard? I have no idea about meta so I'd assume all comers.

Draw - 8

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

Counters - 11

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce

Removal - 4

4 Swords to Plowshares

Dudes - 15
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Combo - 4
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

Lands - 21

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
2 Island
1 Forest
2 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

-2 Rhox War Monk +2 Knight of the Reliquary [best creature bant has to offer, good plan B]
-2 Spell Snare -1 Spell Pierce +3 Daze [Daze is better defense when going for a fast NO]
-2 Qasali Pridemage -2 Tarmogoyf +3 Green sun zenith +1 Natural order [GSZ is way too good to not play and you really want 4 natural order]
-1 island +1 dryad arbor [having 2 is very useful and you don't need more then one of each basic]
-1 plains +1 karakas [good against emrakul and other random situations]
-3 ponder +1 sylvan library +1 vendilion clique +1 scavenging ooze [ponder is ok but I don't like it very much, sylvan library is amazing. Vendilion clique is important because it ensures you can natural order safely. Scavenging ooze is just a good utility card, this could easily be a third kotr as well.]

For an SB I might go something like this:
2 Relic of Progenitus (reanimate, dredge)
1 Tormod's crypt (reanimate, dredge)
2 Spell Pierce (any creature light deck you are keeping NO in against)
2 Path to Exile (fish, zoo, goblins, any midrange)
1 Gaddock Teeg (tendrils decks, NO, FOW)
1 Thrun, the last troll (control)
1 Qasali Pridemage (stoneblade, affinity, random artifacts/enchantments)
3 Angel's Grace (hivemind)
2 Submerge (green decks)

[The Treefolk Master]

I'm a control player, but due to time issues I'm considering to play Bant. However I only own 4 Flooded Strands, 4 Misty Rainforests, 3 Tropicals, 4 Tundras. That means no Windswept and no Savannahs. Would I still be able to build a decent mana base (I have karakas and pretty much every other land except for the ones I've said) with those lands?

[UnsungHero]

@Arrg
Def find a slot for Dryad Arbor. Its a great Land that you can search for via fetchlands and can be sacrificed for Natural Order. Also if playing Green Sun Zenith you can pay 0 to search for it.

-4 Flooded Strand +4 Windswept Heath. This will make sure all 8 of your fetchlands can search for Dryad Arbors. Flooded Strand can get Tundra/Tropical Island/Savannah but Flooded Strand Cannot fetch Dryad Arbor, which you may want fetch do to get natural order off at a time where you don't have a creature on the field. Granted you may not have Windswept heaths, but if you can get them, defiantly replace the Flooded Strands.

Your list doesn't look to bad. Play it often and figure out what works for you. Bant is a deck with plenty of options. Pick options that suit your playstyle.

[useL]

Would this be the wrong thread to write a report on a NO Bant deck I am trying? Or where do I take my business if I play NO Bant =)

[Koby]

Would this be the wrong thread to write a report on a NO Bant deck I am trying? Or where do I take my business if I play NO Bant =)

This is the appropriate thread to discuss NO Bant, as well as Bant aggro, and probably Bant Stoneblade.

[useL]

Me and a friend debated on bringing in Boseiju, Who Shelters All into a NO-environment to get rid of the problem with counters. I found that red in NO RUG brought nothing to the table except creature removal and counter removal. Instead of building with red, I choose white to bring in a better toolbox and have answers to more real threats like Emrakul and dredge. Knight of the Reliquary does just that and more. Here is the list I am running with right now, it probably can be altered a bit but it works very well in our meta environment with G/W-decks, Merfolk, Stoneblade & Junk-decks. Do note that this deck is not about forcing out a quick Progenitus in all games. It can win without seing a Natural Order without any problem. The toolboxes (theres both knights and zeniths) are wonderful and brings you what you need.

Enjoy:


1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Progenitus
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
4 Noble Hiearch

4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
1 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Karakas
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest


Sideboard:
1 Terastodon
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Submerge
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Discussions I've had with my mate:

1) Jace in sideboard, does he fit against control matchup? He can be played out with Boseiju for a complete pwnage but is he strong enough?

2) Boseiju in main? Depends on meta I guess, same with Thrun even though he fits nicely against zoo, can thresh, stoneblade etc etc.

3) Can you fit one more Sylvan Library in the list?

4) One more Qasali Pridemage in main?

5) Eternal Witness, when topdecked it is fantastic, but does it warrant a slot in the deck?

6) Bringing in a Savannah, I really missed one during the last tournament.

7) A second Dryad Arbor. Fetchable when Diabolic Edict hits the floor but worthless on start hand.

[UnsungHero]

Me and a friend debated on bringing in Boseiju, Who Shelters All into a NO-environment to get rid of the problem with counters. I found that red in NO RUG brought nothing to the table except creature removal and counter removal. Instead of building with red, I choose white to bring in a better toolbox and have answers to more real threats like Emrakul and dredge. Knight of the Reliquary does just that and more. Here is the list I am running with right now, it probably can be altered a bit but it works very well in our meta environment with G/W-decks, Merfolk, Stoneblade & Junk-decks. Do note that this deck is not about forcing out a quick Progenitus in all games. It can win without seing a Natural Order without any problem. The toolboxes (theres both knights and zeniths) are wonderful and brings you what you need.

Enjoy:


1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Progenitus
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
4 Noble Hiearch

4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
1 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Karakas
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest


Sideboard:
1 Terastodon
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Submerge
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Discussions I've had with my mate:

1) Jace in sideboard, does he fit against control matchup? He can be played out with Boseiju for a complete pwnage but is he strong enough?

2) Boseiju in main? Depends on meta I guess, same with Thrun even though he fits nicely against zoo, can thresh, stoneblade etc etc.

3) Can you fit one more Sylvan Library in the list?

4) One more Qasali Pridemage in main?

5) Eternal Witness, when topdecked it is fantastic, but does it warrant a slot in the deck?

6) Bringing in a Savannah, I really missed one during the last tournament.

7) A second Dryad Arbor. Fetchable when Diabolic Edict hits the floor but worthless on start hand.

1) Jace in sideboard. He is pretty good in the control match, Most of the time though I found he just ends up killing opposing Jaces. Might wanna run pithing needle instead to stop things like other non planeswalkers,deed,stoneforge,lavamancer, which is a little more versatile.

2) Thrun is very good. With a Jitte or sword he is amazing. Boseiju seems really slow. Comes into play tapped, have to play life to get mana out of out. And has the "dies to wasteland" tag on it. Ive never tested it myself but seems like it would be slow.

3) Sylvan is very good. No sure if running 2 is worth it though.

4) One more Qasali Pridemage in main could be swapped Possibly for a birds. You said you aren't trying to ramp into a quick No-Prog, so having 4 Nobles should be more than enough.

5) E.Witness isn't a bad Choice, but what cards are you needing to absolutely get back with it?

6) Bringing in a Savannah for a Tundra.

Also no love fore Maze of Ith?


[/QUOTE]

[UnsungHero]

Me and a friend debated on bringing in Boseiju, Who Shelters All into a NO-environment to get rid of the problem with counters. I found that red in NO RUG brought nothing to the table except creature removal and counter removal. Instead of building with red, I choose white to bring in a better toolbox and have answers to more real threats like Emrakul and dredge. Knight of the Reliquary does just that and more. Here is the list I am running with right now, it probably can be altered a bit but it works very well in our meta environment with G/W-decks, Merfolk, Stoneblade & Junk-decks. Do note that this deck is not about forcing out a quick Progenitus in all games. It can win without seing a Natural Order without any problem. The toolboxes (theres both knights and zeniths) are wonderful and brings you what you need.

Enjoy:


1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Progenitus
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
4 Noble Hiearch

4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
1 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Karakas
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest


Sideboard:
1 Terastodon
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tower of the Magistrate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Submerge
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Discussions I've had with my mate:

1) Jace in sideboard, does he fit against control matchup? He can be played out with Boseiju for a complete pwnage but is he strong enough?

2) Boseiju in main? Depends on meta I guess, same with Thrun even though he fits nicely against zoo, can thresh, stoneblade etc etc.

3) Can you fit one more Sylvan Library in the list?

4) One more Qasali Pridemage in main?

5) Eternal Witness, when topdecked it is fantastic, but does it warrant a slot in the deck?

6) Bringing in a Savannah, I really missed one during the last tournament.

7) A second Dryad Arbor. Fetchable when Diabolic Edict hits the floor but worthless on start hand.

1) Jace in sideboard. He is pretty good in the control match, Most of the time though I found he just ends up killing opposing Jaces. Might wanna run pithing needle instead to stop things like other non planeswalkers,deed,stoneforge,lavamancer, which is a little more versatile.

2) Thrun is very good. With a Jitte or sword he is amazing. Boseiju seems really slow. Comes into play tapped, have to play 2 life to get mana out of it. And has the "dies to wasteland" tag on it. Ive never tested it myself but seems like it would be slow. I guess you gotta ask yourself how much trouble is that worth for un-counterability. Is it worth it?

3) Sylvan is very good. No sure if running 2 is worth it though.

4) One more Qasali Pridemage in main could be swapped Possibly for a birds. You said you aren't trying to ramp into a quick No-Prog, so having 4 Nobles should be more than enough for mana ramp.

5) E.Witness isn't a bad Choice, but what cards are you needing to absolutely get back with it?

6) Bringing in a Savannah for a Tundra.

Also no love fore Maze of Ith?

[useL]

1) Jace in sideboard. He is pretty good in the control match, Most of the time though I found he just ends up killing opposing Jaces. Might wanna run pithing needle instead to stop things like other non planeswalkers,deed,stoneforge,lavamancer, which is a little more versatile.

2) Thrun is very good. With a Jitte or sword he is amazing. Boseiju seems really slow. Comes into play tapped, have to play 2 life to get mana out of it. And has the "dies to wasteland" tag on it. Ive never tested it myself but seems like it would be slow. I guess you gotta ask yourself how much trouble is that worth for un-counterability. Is it worth it?

3) Sylvan is very good. No sure if running 2 is worth it though.

4) One more Qasali Pridemage in main could be swapped Possibly for a birds. You said you aren't trying to ramp into a quick No-Prog, so having 4 Nobles should be more than enough for mana ramp.

5) E.Witness isn't a bad Choice, but what cards are you needing to absolutely get back with it?

6) Bringing in a Savannah for a Tundra.

Also no love fore Maze of Ith?

1) The needle often meets misstep in a matchup but sure it is more versatile.
2) Boseiju is fetchable endstep with a knight and sure it is slow but it also wins games when you have it out. The reason to run it is to cut 4 slots of FoW which is a waste of good slots for other things like sylvan or thrun.
3) Agreed, one might be enuf.
4) You really really want to play clique round 2 to gain the upper hand. Thats why I have the fifth manaramp. I always find myself short of mana in this deck if the games are intense.
5) Witness is just card advantage, you can get any land/brainstorm/swords/natural order or creature with it.
6) Yeah, will make that change.
7) Maze of ith produces 0 mana, i often find myself mulligan when I have that and another land in hand. It's often a dead card to me.

[thefreakaccident]

I really like the inclusion of boseiju MD, it makes you so safe in the midgame to pressure with whatever spells you want, and generally force your blue opponents to use all their non-countermagic answers early, which they really don't want to do. I was really wondering if anyone on these forums was even going to realize that was an option with knight, thank you for understanding the format.


As for cutting FoW, i'm a little on the fence about that decision, because without it misstep becomes your only turn 0 answer in a format filled with 1cc bombs.

I really love how wizards brought survival decks back without bringing back survival itself... It's actually quite hilarious... At least you aren't killing with 2-3 mana the turn after zenith resolves.

[useL]

The problem isn't just the four cards that FoW takes up. It is also to keep the count at a good rate and the fact that you loose a card every time you use it. Ask yourself instead, what would you use FoW on? Are there no other answers to that? What turn 1 bomb do you mean?

The only real threats turn 1 would be from a storm deck, and I can admit that FoW is good there, but no storm-player will ever go off without using a duress or thoughtseize, and then you are low on counters anyway.

Basically I picked a FoWless BANT list, removed the stoneforge package cause its slow and clunky and basically isnt needed to win games, and came up with this double toolbox deck. (not saying I invented it, just put it together out of two excellent lists).

Daze, Swords to Plowshares, Mental Misstep all solves 1cc threats quite well. Sure, I miss FoW sometimes, but not when I draw it midgame or when I have to use it on a 1cc spell cause I took out a creature that just as easily could have blocked the Goblin Lackey.

[UnsungHero]

More about Boseiju, I haven't tested it, it seems interesting. Seems like tapping a KoTR to get a "comes into play tapped land" (Boseiju) is a huge risk though. Has the uncounterability been a huge factor when going off with Natural order or casting your Zeniths? Looking at their hand with clique always helped me decide if I should go off with Natural Order. I guess the main question really is that a land that Comes into play tapped, deals 2 life to add 1 colorless, only to protect an instant or sorcery from countered (only ones it will be used for is NO and GSZ) really worth it?

Gonna try Boseiju for sure.

[thefreakaccident]

More about Boseiju, I haven't tested it, it seems interesting. Seems like tapping a KoTR to get a "comes into play tapped land" (Boseiju) is a huge risk though. Has the uncounterability been a huge factor when going off with Natural order or casting your Zeniths? Looking at their hand with clique always helped me decide if I should go off with Natural Order. I guess the main question really is that a land that Comes into play tapped, deals 2 life to add 1 colorless, only to protect an instant or sorcery from countered (only ones it will be used for is NO and GSZ) really worth it?

Gonna try Boseiju for sure.

You're generally going to be using Knight on your opponent's turn so the CIPT clause is kind of moot, and I was saying that I liked the combo, not that I necessarily liked the combo in his list. That combo is much better suited for a rock style strategy.


As for 1 drops that I fear, this is legacy, half of the cards are 1 drops, and all of the cards in this format are good. A resolved and unblocked lackey loses the game, and destroying a vial on turn 3 is just slow enough for them to still get tempo out of it. While there are plenty of 1 drops that are easily survivable, there are still plenty of them that make me paranoid as shit. Card disadvantage be damned if you just need to survive a little bit longer.

[frenchy-man]

New list, featuring snapcaster :


4 Noble hierarch
4 kotr
3 Snapcaster mage
3 Stoneforge mystic
4 Spellstutter sprite
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Aether vial
4 Mental misstep
3 Force of will
4 stp
1 Battleskull
1 sword of feast and famine
4 Brainstorm

3 misty rainforest
4 windswept heath
4 tropical island
1 Tundra
1 savannah
1 Forest
1 Plain
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of ith
1 Riptide laboratory


Side :

1 Force of will
3 Meddling mage
2 k-grip
3 Surgical extraction
1 sofi
1 Jitte
2 relic of progenitus
1 Karakas

This allow you to play the most powerfull 1 drops that are vial and hierarch (accelerating this deck that needs a lot of mana, and weakening any mana denial strategy that could be played against you).
Lots of interaction in the deck, I especially love the "reliquary ==> riptide to abuse of snapcaster, vendilion and sprite" one.
Plus the late game is very strong as you play the most efficient beater (kotr) and snapcaster to create CA.
Stoneforge shines again in this deck, tremendiously increasing your aggro MUs, and equipments are alaways good against control decks. The synergy with the numerous and cheap flyiers is also very good.
Playing one more riptide would be good but it is hard to find a slot.

There's a mana denial plan (wasteland and sometimes misstep their vial/hierarch) but it is not the main one.

[Artlee]

I have been playing with James Pogues list for a while:


23 LANDS
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Karakas

12 CREATURES
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stoneforge Mystic

20 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
1 Ponder

5 OTHER SPELLS
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull

SIDEBOARD
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Submerge
3 Spell Pierce
1 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
1 Maze of Ith


I often feel i side out the stoneforge package for Vendilion Clique, and I am thinking of putting the Clique in main and taing out the stoneforge package permanently. I really playing Stoneforge and holding mana to cheat the equipment into play is too mana intense compared to playing a 2 drop, and playing KotR next turn. That leaves me with 3 extra slots. What should I add? Here is what I have been thinking:

-4 Stoneforge
-1 Batterskull
-1 Sword of Body and Mind

+3 Vendilion Clique
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+2 ??

What can you people recommend. Should I add Qasali Pridemage or Sylvan Library?

[useL]

Noble Hierarch? I cant believe you arent running it.

[Artlee]

It actually runs fine without them, but yes, Noble would be an obvious card to add

[The Duck!!]

Isn't it looking like bant new horizon's? IMO though, bant aggro and bant new horizon's doesn't have the same playing style. I mean,my idea of bant aggro is tarmos kotrs 2 sfm + 2 equipment package cliques and hierarchs as main 1 drop or 1st turn drop. Bant aggros can come with or w/o wastelands but new horizons must run 4 wastelands since it maximizes kotrs and terravores fattiness.

[Artlee]

I'm not sure to be quite honest. As mentioned it was pure netdecking, but I just feel the Stoneforge package is underwhelming often. Perhaps I should try dropping batterskull/Jitte and add 2 swords of X & Y

[Krondo9]

After playing with this deck more recently, I feel like it literally has no chance of beating NO RUG. At least the aggro version that is, without the FoWs. What do you guys suggest doing? Anyone been able to beat NO RUG?

[Asthereal]

Only by attacking the manabase.
In Bant Aggro I tried Life from the Loam side and it helped me to a few test wins against NO RUG.
Extra counters may also help, but generally if they play well and draw normally, the Prog is inevitable. :-S

[damionblackgear]

What about solving the Progen instead of preventing it? Llawan is always available it it takes a Bolt to remove. The Mystic versions could also Race it with Skull + Sword.

[Asthereal]

If you have space to fit in Llawan that sounds like a solid plan too.
Whatever you do, do NOT try Wing Shards. :-P
I tried it last weekend in Maverick and it's absolute crap.

[Fatal]

If you have space to fit in Llawan that sounds like a solid plan too.
Whatever you do, do NOT try Wing Shards. :-P
I tried it last weekend in Maverick and it's absolute crap.

I wouldn't agree with you. Wing Shards is very good answer, but it require plan and thinking. In aggro bant you can just play brainstorm then Wing shards to improve more storm count. Also combine with StP/Submerge its actually on of the best removal.

[The Duck!!]

Been having this idea of running 1 fauna shaman MD for tool box. Can maybe fetch a phantasmal image for removal against progenitus. Also,would like to try Kira + Gaddock Teeg (post board) against UW control. It just came to me that against UW Control,Teeg is a pain in the arse for them. And I just thought of trying Kira when I was thinking of selling it already. Haha. I know it's too slow but I just thought against control,it just might push through coz control decks are usually mid-late game. Any comments?
Btw,my current bant aggro list runs 4 green sun's zenith. That's why I'd like to test 1 fauna shaman main deck.

[dedicateddan]

Been having this idea of running 1 fauna shaman MD for tool box. Can maybe fetch a phantasmal image for removal against progenitus. Also,would like to try Kira + Gaddock Teeg (post board) against UW control. It just came to me that against UW Control,Teeg is a pain in the arse for them. And I just thought of trying Kira when I was thinking of selling it already. Haha. I know it's too slow but I just thought against control,it just might push through coz control decks are usually mid-late game. Any comments?
Btw,my current bant aggro list runs 4 green sun's zenith. That's why I'd like to test 1 fauna shaman main deck.

Sylvan Safekeeper is probably better than Kira at protecting Gaddock Teeg. It's also directly tutorable.

Fauna Shaman gives us a lot of options, but probably isn't worth it because it's not that good with only around 15 creatures. Playing creatures that are directly tutorable with Green Sun's Zenith is smoother. It would be pretty painful to side out a card for fauna shaman.

What are people doing against Natural Order -> Progenitus? Do we ignore it, or do we play something along the lines of Phyrexian Metamorph so that we have an answer to it?

[ShiftyKapree]

If MM gets the hammer, what will you guys go back to playing? NO Bant or Bant CBT? or even New Horizons?

[DragoFireheart]

If MM gets the hammer, what will you guys go back to playing? NO Bant or Bant CBT? or even New Horizons?

NO Bant, then Bant CBT most likely. Depends on how much combo arises.

[Krondo9]

Has anyone been playing this deck recently? NO bant version. It got 2nd at SCG Indy yesterday, and I played it today at my local store and won all my games. It seems very solid, and I actually prefer it over the NO RUG version now, which I was playing before. Knight of the Reliquary, Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg, Qasali Pridemage, Swords are all pretty good versions to run white right now.

Wondering if anyone has thoughts on the deck atm. It is certainly a deck to beat IMO.

[Charlatan]

Has anyone been playing this deck recently? NO bant version. It got 2nd at SCG Indy yesterday, and I played it today at my local store and won all my games. It seems very solid, and I actually prefer it over the NO RUG version now, which I was playing before. Knight of the Reliquary, Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg, Qasali Pridemage, Swords are all pretty good versions to run white right now.

Wondering if anyone has thoughts on the deck atm. It is certainly a deck to beat IMO.

Man, congratulations. I really wanted you to be champion. Not just because I have one Bant. But I really enjoy your play style.

I play bant aggro and leaves NO Combo in the SB against zoo, and another aggro decks.

I only think that your SB is messy! The last match, OMG, where are yours Ooze man? And pierces?

I'm runing this as SB:
3 Spell Pierce
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Natural Order
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Submerge
1 Progenitus

[Krondo9]

No I didnt play at SCG Indy. I said IT got 2nd at SCG Indy. I am not Marsh lol.

But in regards to his sideboard, I also don't run leyline of the void. I prefer Tormod's crypt, although I might intergrate a Snapcaster-Surgical Extraction mix instead. I dont terribly like Thrun, and I am unsure about submerge. It was much better in NO RUG imo. I would just run path to exile in NO Bant. It seems much better.

[losada]

It seems very solid, and I actually prefer it over the NO RUG version now, which I was playing before. Knight of the Reliquary, Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg, Qasali Pridemage, Swords are all pretty good versions to run white right now.

I think the main advantages of AgroBant builds over RUG version are:

1. Best targets for GSZ (Qasali and Knight of the Reliquary)
2. It is a more consistent deck. Noble Hierarch gives us any of the three colors that need (We can make a Forest-Hierarch-Go in Turn1 against agro, with Swords in hand, with no afraid to be the target of a "wasteland"). Knight of the Reliquary gives us another way to win
3. We can make room for Stoneforge plan in sideboard.

And the main disadvantages:

1. We have a worse sideboard against control decks (REB, basically)
2. We kill more slowly (we have no bolts or fire/ice, and swords gives lives to our opponent)

You can take a look to this built (-4 MM, +4 Daze):

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6865&iddeck=49819

The player (Jose Angel Cantero) has won the last two big tournaments here in Spain (won 80 duals in 15 days, xD...)

[rocketrae21]

Why would you not run Purify the Grave as a sideboard card? Yes, something like Leyline or Crypt hits everything, but how often do you need to remove everything? Plus 2 copies in the deck = 4 targets removed

[Krondo9]

Actually I have been using Surgical Extraction. I am currently running snapcaster mage as a 1-of in the deck, and It has great synergy with Surgical Extraction. I may potentially go up to 2 snapcaster mages, but we'll see. Snapping back a swords or brainstorm is always good, and late game Green Sun or Natural Order is nice too. I cut a Jace mainboard to run it, (2 jaces, 1 snapcaster).

[useL]

I think the main advantages of AgroBant builds over RUG version are:

1. Best targets for GSZ (Qasali and Knight of the Reliquary)
2. It is a more consistent deck. Noble Hierarch gives us any of the three colors that need (We can make a Forest-Hierarch-Go in Turn1 against agro, with Swords in hand, with no afraid to be the target of a "wasteland"). Knight of the Reliquary gives us another way to win
3. We can make room for Stoneforge plan in sideboard.

And the main disadvantages:

1. We have a worse sideboard against control decks (REB, basically)
2. We kill more slowly (we have no bolts or fire/ice, and swords gives lives to our opponent)

You can take a look to this built (-4 MM, +4 Daze):

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6865&iddeck=49819

The player (Jose Angel Cantero) has won the last two big tournaments here in Spain (won 80 duals in 15 days, xD...)

Can we have this Jose come here and write some comments to his build? Like why the SoBaM in board instead of SoFaF? Or why no enlightened tutor built board? How did he play vs reanimate to win with his list?

[useL]

I think the main advantages of AgroBant builds over RUG version are:

1. Best targets for GSZ (Qasali and Knight of the Reliquary)
2. It is a more consistent deck. Noble Hierarch gives us any of the three colors that need (We can make a Forest-Hierarch-Go in Turn1 against agro, with Swords in hand, with no afraid to be the target of a "wasteland"). Knight of the Reliquary gives us another way to win
3. We can make room for Stoneforge plan in sideboard.

And the main disadvantages:

1. We have a worse sideboard against control decks (REB, basically)
2. We kill more slowly (we have no bolts or fire/ice, and swords gives lives to our opponent)

You can take a look to this built (-4 MM, +4 Daze):

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6865&iddeck=49819

The player (Jose Angel Cantero) has won the last two big tournaments here in Spain (won 80 duals in 15 days, xD...)

Can we have this Jose come here and write some comments to his build? Like why the SoBaM in board instead of SoFaF? Or why no enlightened tutor built board? How did he play vs reanimate to win with his list?

[damionblackgear]

Can we have this Jose come here and write some comments to his build? Like why the SoBaM in board instead of SoFaF? Or why no enlightened tutor built board? How did he play vs reanimate to win with his list?

Not Jose but I did run SoBM instead of SoFI in my build before going back to Rock. Body and Mind is Pro Green and Blue. Meaning that your creature would be Pro Goyf/Knight and Pro Jace.

The 2/2 wolf is also left to block any creature which become relevant against aggro. Reason it's good vs Merfolk is because it doesn't count on them not having 2 lords or a swarm of creatures (Folk and Gobo's) to still be effective against them. It Essentially gains you life in that sense and still kills any creature SoFI would've killed.

The Mill is also relevant in the aggro match as you will grow your Goyf to increase the clock. you are also giving your Ooze fodder to gain more life than just the damage the wolf would prevent.

It's also useful vs Thopter Sword as they are still being clocked (by mill if they can still race the damage).

[lordofthepit]

The Mill is also relevant in the aggro match as you will grow your Goyf/Knight to increase the clock. you are also giving your Ooze fodder to gain more life than just the damage the wolf would prevent.

These are decent points, except I don't see how it helps grow your Knight.

[lordofthepit]

The Mill is also relevant in the aggro match as you will grow your Goyf/Knight to increase the clock. you are also giving your Ooze fodder to gain more life than just the damage the wolf would prevent.

These are decent points, except I don't see how it helps grow your Knight.

[damionblackgear]

These are decent points, except I don't see how it helps grow your Knight.

Typo. It's 4:11am my time and I'm on autopilot at work. Meant Goyf. I'm use to typing Goyf/Knight. It does not grow your knight. It will, however, grow Their knight and any Terravore on the field.

[useL]

Two words - Lightning Greaves.

Played a GPT today with them equipped on Knights and Ooze, incredible.

[JJ_JKidd]

How does the archetype beat recurring Snapcaster and STP? I was thinking of Kira but its bonkers in the Stoneforge version for obvious reasons...

[useL]

How does the archetype beat recurring Snapcaster and STP? I was thinking of Kira but its bonkers in the Stoneforge version for obvious reasons...



Read one post prior to yours.

[JJ_JKidd]

Totally forgot it gives shroud. Rather have Kira though

[roflecones]

How does the archetype beat recurring Snapcaster and STP? I was thinking of Kira but its bonkers in the Stoneforge version for obvious reasons...

I top 8'd at AU's legacy showdown with NO Bant this past weekend and had no problem dealing with Snapcaster using Scavenging Ooze. Not only will it get rid of StP but can be really valuable in the mirror for making your opponent's KoTR smaller than yours.

[smallpeach]

Has anyone been playing this deck with stoneforge and blade?
I just built this deck few days ago, but hasn't test it yet.

// Creatures:15
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliqury

// Spells:25
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands:20
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland

Any advice or suggestion about the main deck ?
Still thinking about the sb now...

[damionblackgear]

List looks very similar to mine before i played the misstep in it. Granted I switched back to my favorite deck while misstep had combo out. I've been thinking of going back to this archetype as Combo is back. Just seeing if I can find a way to beat it first.

Back on topic

The list was fine but, I've really liked the addition of GSZ and the having cut Goyf from the list entirely.

For your list, I would look into using KotR in a more utility role as well as a beater. Karakas is very useful as is fetching Wastelands. Most lists are using a Bog out of the yard as well (I've seen some people who play it main). Either way, you can abuse KotR pretty well in this deck as you have the removal as well.

Wondering, why F&F over any other Sword? We're not like standard where we need our mana to play counters. It just seems under-powered to me.

[smallpeach]

List looks very similar to mine before i played the misstep in it. Granted I switched back to my favorite deck while misstep had combo out. I've been thinking of going back to this archetype as Combo is back. Just seeing if I can find a way to beat it first.

Back on topic

The list was fine but, I've really liked the addition of GSZ and the having cut Goyf from the list entirely.

For your list, I would look into using KotR in a more utility role as well as a beater. Karakas is very useful as is fetching Wastelands. Most lists are using a Bog out of the yard as well (I've seen some people who play it main). Either way, you can abuse KotR pretty well in this deck as you have the removal as well.

Wondering, why F&F over any other Sword? We're not like standard where we need our mana to play counters. It just seems under-powered to me.

So you mean -4 GOLF +4 GSZ?
It may need some test to say which choice is better.
I really like the 2cc beater.

So which other Sword do you recommend?

[damionblackgear]

I don't think I'd go 1;1 Goyf;Zenith as there are tons of other options out there. Some of the other lists go over some of the different options. Also, The Rock thread and the Maverick Thread can show you what some of the other decks are doing with Zenith and how they've been feeling about it.

As far as swords go, I like SoBM then SoFI in the decks. There can be some difficulty with Knight Battles and it's nice to be able to leave a blocker for Folk when you can't burn the Lords out. The Mill also provides an out to active Thopters (mentioned all of this a page back). SoFI is next on the list because it draws cards. I'm not to worried about the 2 damage unless I'm in the affinity matchup.

All in all, that's a playstyle and build call. You may solve some issues I was running into and I may have found the answer to the issues you were having. It's just a matter of build.

[smallpeach]

Well, after checking the thecouncil, i found that almost all the bant control decks(the prototype of my deck) with 0 Zenith and no Noble Hierarch..I don't know why.
And how about:
-2 Goyf, -1 knight and -3 Stifle
+1 daze, +1 spell Snare, +2 Pridemage and +2 Vendilion Clique.

[JJ_JKidd]

With 2 SFMs MD, whats the right number of Equipments to run? 1-off of SOBAM, Jitte and Batterskull?

[Bignasty197]

With 2 SFM, only a Jitte and a Sword of X/Y. If they kill your Mystic, Batterskull sits dead in your hand for a few turns. I have been testing Lightning Greaves as a 3rd equipment with mixed results as well.

[lordofthepit]

I'd like to build a Bant Aggro deck to take advantage of Knight of the Reliquary, which I believe is the best creature in the format. I'd also like to make use of Green Sun's Zenith if possible. I don't want to run Natural Order because I believe it is a bad option with so many blue decks running around at the moment.

I've tried brewing a few decks, but I haven't come up with anything I quite liked yet. I tend to play more mid-range aggro decks, which might explain some peculiarities in my card preferences:
1) When I start with Maciej Pasek's GP Amsterdam list (http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7048&iddeck=51134), I feel like there's a "hole" in the two-drop slot. I'm currently not that sold on Stifle, but I suppose if I did run it, I would have less of a need to play a creature on turn 2.
2) I tried adding a Stoneforge package (3 SFMs + Batterskull + Jitte replacing Stifles and Jaces) to give me more 2-drops. The curve felt better, but now I was dangerously low on blue cards to support FOW.
3) Pierre Sommen's GP Amsterdam winning build (http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7050&iddeck=51150) curves out better with 4 SFMs and has 18 blue cards (including FOW), but I'm pretty insistent on running GSZ.

I also really like Elspeth more than Jace, but I can't really cut Jace without lowering my blue count any lower. I guess my problem is that the only blue cards I really want to run are Brainstorm, Force of Will, and Vendilion Clique, but I feel that it's necessary to add just enough other blue cards to pitch to FoW. Does anyone have suggestions?

[Koby]

There are blue alternatives that play well in this deck:

Daze, Spell Pierce, Trygon Predator, Rhox War Monk, Meddling Mage, Spellstutter Sprite, Snapcaster Mage, etc

GSZ, KotR, and SFM are generally incompatible with the FOW strategy, and I've found that to be the most frustrating thing playing this deck. The :g::w: base is really really solid, and diluting it with FoW makes it painful to try to play both. I think cutting the FoW for Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, and Daze may provide enough cheap counters to make the GW shell run its course without worrying about the blue card count.

[koba]

I'd like to build a Bant Aggro deck to take advantage of Knight of the Reliquary, which I believe is the best creature in the format. I'd also like to make use of Green Sun's Zenith if possible. I don't want to run Natural Order because I believe it is a bad option with so many blue decks running around at the moment.

I've tried brewing a few decks, but I haven't come up with anything I quite liked yet. I tend to play more mid-range aggro decks, which might explain some peculiarities in my card preferences:
1) When I start with Maciej Pasek's GP Amsterdam list (http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7048&iddeck=51134), I feel like there's a "hole" in the two-drop slot. I'm currently not that sold on Stifle, but I suppose if I did run it, I would have less of a need to play a creature on turn 2.
2) I tried adding a Stoneforge package (3 SFMs + Batterskull + Jitte replacing Stifles and Jaces) to give me more 2-drops. The curve felt better, but now I was dangerously low on blue cards to support FOW.
3) Pierre Sommen's GP Amsterdam winning build (http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7050&iddeck=51150) curves out better with 4 SFMs and has 18 blue cards (including FOW), but I'm pretty insistent on running GSZ.

I also really like Elspeth more than Jace, but I can't really cut Jace without lowering my blue count any lower. I guess my problem is that the only blue cards I really want to run are Brainstorm, Force of Will, and Vendilion Clique, but I feel that it's necessary to add just enough other blue cards to pitch to FoW. Does anyone have suggestions?

It is very hard to play zenith, mystic and force of will all in the same deck. In Amsterdam, I moved the mystics to the sideboard for that reason, often cutting fow to bring them in. The number of blue cards for fow will always be an issue by the way.

In contrast, the ‘hole in the two-drop’ slot is not really a big deal in my experience; with zenith and hierarch you can very often play a three drop on turn two and I generally do not feel the need to have more than a few two-drops.

I would advise playing 3 copies of daze and 3 jaces. With the cards you mentioned, that brings your blue count up to a low but acceptable 18. If you want more blue cards, you could always add a few ponders, one or two snapcasters and, depending on the expected meta, stifle, spell pierce or spell snare.

[JJ_JKidd]

Some lists are trying out the Tempo ***** approach. There is one list which made the Top 8 in NELC Jupiter held last 5 November in which its basically the same as a UGR Tempo ***** except that it runs StP instead of Bolt, and Mongeese instead of Snapcasters.

On paper, I dont see how this^^ version is better than the UGR one. Its just like uve traded Bolt for StP while losing the REBs and Pyros. :eyebrow:

[CaBaaL]

I tried this list: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=951678
Looks like mystic has better results than Green sun zenith.
Anyone have tried it? Looks good and has a solid SB even in random meta.

[Koby]

I've ran SFM to success:

4 Noble hierarch
4 Goyf
3 SFM
3 KotR
2 Clique

+equipment

But this strategy has to be supplemented with Ponder to boost up Goyfs.

Alternatively, GSZ shell looks something along the lines:
4 GSZ
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
4 KotR
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2-3 Cliques

I like the latter better as it helps you cast Jace more consistently, and allows room for Snapcaster Mage to be utilized with StP for extra removal.

[xfxf]

Guys I've proxied up the following list and have been trying it out for a couple of days. To me Bant looks very well positioned in the current meta.

1x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
3x Wasteland
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
4x Tropical Island
3x Tundra
4x Misty Rainforest

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares

1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Batterskull

3x Vendilion Clique
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Stoneforge Mystic

3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

In my testing it performed very strongly against Reanimator, Storm (both ANT and TES), RUG and BUG. The second turn Vendilion and third turn Jaces are quite strong. Knights and the SFM packages are very fast and effective. If you can land one early it is very easy to build up pressure. I felt the deck was a better version of UW Blade without the conditional counters. But when I played against fast Zoo the games were uphill battles. I couldn't stop the pouring threats and really missed Snapcasters and UW Blade. With such threats I would imagine that the aggro matchups would be easier but seems the other way.

[Koby]

I'm not liking the SFM package lately for this deck. In place, I'm moving to GSZ and better utilizing Scavenging Ooze which I feel is stronger in the metagame overall. This means relying more heavily on Jace to close out games.

[Bignasty197]

I've been contemplating throwing in 2 Thopter Foundry and a Sword of the Meek in my Bant Blade list. I tend to have extra mana quite often and making evasion dudes seems like a good idea. I realize Batterskull serves the same or similar purpose, but when it dies, I only have Knights and Jace to kill the other guy. This would also lead me to add Academy Ruins to fetch with Knight. Food for thought. I will be trying this out at the next weekly tournament I attend, so I will give feedback as to whether it sucks or not.

[Artlee]

I'm not liking the SFM package lately for this deck. In place, I'm moving to GSZ and better utilizing Scavenging Ooze which I feel is stronger in the metagame overall. This means relying more heavily on Jace to close out games.

I'm pretty sure Brian Kibler went that route in the last scgopen, but I cannot find the decklist.

[tsabo_tavoc]

I'm not liking the SFM package lately for this deck. In place, I'm moving to GSZ and better utilizing Scavenging Ooze which I feel is stronger in the metagame overall. This means relying more heavily on Jace to close out games.

I ran the GSZ package main and SFM in the sideboard. In the last tournament I played, I lost two rounds against black decks. First was against UB Tempo with 4 Lilliana :cry: who owns the deck. The other round was against Deadguy with Bitterblossom and I was outraced by Faerie tokens. -1 KotR, +1 Terravore would definitely have helped. Edicts are very good against Thresh while Perish from the board is cruel after the counterspells were stripped. I just wonder if the black matchups are intrinsically (slightly) unfavourable. For reference, this was my list.

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vendillion Clique
1 Rhox War Monk

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Life from the Loam
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Trygon Predator

[luckme10]

Heavy discard tend to maintain a tempo advantage against blue decks. It doesn't help that force of will only contributes to milling yourself. Try bringing sideboarding misdirection for hymm.

[koba]

Why is nobody playing snapcaster mage in this deck?

I’m not suggesting running the full playset, but, in a deck with brainstorm and plow, you can easily support a few. I am running two in my zenith list for a while now and they are great.

[BWM]

koba, what's your list?

[koba]

This is what I would run at a tournament right now. Maybe 3 mages are excessive, but so far I have few problems with running so many. I am pretty sure that I would play two of them at least.

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Vendillon Clique
4 Knight of the reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 snapcaster mage
1 Scavenging ooze

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Tropical island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Horizon canopy
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland

S.B.

1 Bojuka bog
4 Spell pierce
1 Qasali pridemage
3 Surgical extraction
3 Path to exile
2 Umezawa’s jitte
1 Jace, the mind sculptor

[Koby]

This is what I would run at a tournament right now. Maybe 3 mages are excessive, but so far I have few problems with running so many. I am pretty sure that I would play two of them at least.


This is more or less the list I am playing, except -1 Ponder -1 SCM -3 Daze +3 Spell Snare +2 Spell Pierce. It runs pretty well against most of Legacy's All-In decks, but has trouble against dedicated aggro since you can't answer or even trump their plays.

It looks like your manabase is a bit off, I'm using:

8 fetchlands
4 Tropical island
1 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Horizon canopy
1 Forest
Zero Basic Island
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

White is pretty much only used for StP and KotR. I minimize the amount of non-:g: producing lands since I really don't want to get caught without a way to play a first turn Noble hierarch/GSZ.

[Jacemindbreak]

What's everyone's opinion on using Eldric and Geist of Saint Traft?

[Ajsmirnov]

I think Blade Control plays Geist because they cannot play Thrun. Here troll is just better.

[lordofthepit]

For those of you who don't run Stoneforge Mystic, how do you shore up the Goblins matchup? (I refuse to run Stoneforge Mystic in Bant since there are too many Spell Snares, Lightning Bolts, and Punishing Fires running around at my local store, and it's such a tempo beating compared to running GSZ.)

I haven't lost any matches against Goblins yet, but I think I've benefited from good luck and opponent pilot error. Currently, I run a few SB Paths to shore up the Zoo/Maverick/Merfolk matchup, Elspeth to help against Zoo/control, and Engineered Explosives against small Zoo/Elves/random. The problem is none of these options are really great against Goblins, since Path just accelerates them even more, Elspeth is often too slow, and Engineered Explosives suffers from their varied curve. Even worse, cards like Spell Pierce and Spell Snare are pretty bad in this matchup; Force of Will, while not great, would be one of our better cards (if only for lack of decent SB material to bring in) if the blue count weren't so low after boarding out Pierce and Snare.

I've considered Umezawa's Jitte and Dueling Grounds to shore up the matchup, but after trying Jitte for over a month, I've found that in most matchups where I thought it might be useful, my creature would simply get removed in response to the equip, setting me back in tempo. Dueling Grounds and other cards like Absolute Law, Burrenton Forge-Tender, etc. are too narrow to justify a spot.

Is this a matchup you just ignore, or is there any special sideboard tech? (My maindeck is very similar to ruckus', except I run slightly more lands and do not run Snapcaster, which I imagine would help things out a lot against Goblins.)

[Koby]

It runs pretty well against most of Legacy's All-In decks, but has trouble against dedicated aggro since you can't answer or even trump their plays.


To answer that, I put in the sideboard 3 Paths (spot) and 2 Jittes. I rely on just drawing the Jittes to help out; whereas the spot removal helps to buy enough time. It also gets very difficult to run against Goblins when they bring in Pyrokinesis.

Here's Kibler's list; let's see what he's got going:

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tarmogoyf

2 Elspeth, Knight-errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Daze

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor

sideboard
3 Path to Exile
1 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
1 Submerge
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Meddling Mage
1 Armageddon
1 Tower of the Magistrate
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

[wizard_of_gore]

About goblins (and other red aggro decks)..
Seems like everyone is occupied with vendilion cliques, kotr's, sfm, planeswalkers... But
everyone forgot about rhox war monk. Imune to bolt, can pitch to fow, relatively strong body, and lifegain. I don't know why bant decks doesn't run him anymore so often, but in aggro meta he is really good choice.

[Bignasty197]

About goblins (and other red aggro decks)..
Seems like everyone is occupied with vendilion cliques, kotr's, sfm, planeswalkers... But
everyone forgot about rhox war monk. Imune to bolt, can pitch to fow, relatively strong body, and lifegain. I don't know why bant decks doesn't run him anymore so often, but in aggro meta he is really good choice.

GOBLINS- In my experience, Piledriver is the nemesis of War Monk. I almost always spend my STP on Lackey and have to find more removal for Piledriver. Piledriver can infiniblock War Monk and you gain no life in the process. This is aside from the fact that they can Port/Waste you and that will make it difficult to cast RWM.

BURN- War Monk is an all-star. I have had people use a Fireblast on him before, which is awesome. Post SB he gets REB'd like a champ.

ZOO- I think Knight/Batterskull/Jitte do a good job already.

Don't get me wrong, I like RWM as maybe a 1-of Zenith target, but it gets outclassed quickly with everyone playing Batterskulls and Knights.

[wizard_of_gore]

It's ok ;)

But, you don't have only rwm in deck ;) you have other thing to combat goblins (creatures, removal, countermagic...).

Also, against zoo, i think that rwm is better than stoneforge mystic because, there is no chance that sfm will live more than one turn (especially against good zoo pilot ;)) and if it's happens, your batterskull can meet his qasali pridemage (and in early game you will never have free mana to return baterskull in hand, and against zoo only early game matters). Rwm is bolt imune, and that is very relevant. Don't get me wrong, but i think sfm and kotr is not enough against red based aggro decks. My meta is full of them, and i play bant too, so i'm just speaking from my experience ;)

My roommate plays burn all time, so i can tell you this - rwm is very good actually, only if you know what are you doing. And that means, you must protect monk at all cost. So what are you doing with your fows, dazes and pierces in your deck? Will you counter lightning bolt in you? Of corse you'll not. Your master plan against burn is to provide your rwm stays on board. When your opponent tries to burn him down, YOU COUNTER that ? countering fireblast when he looses 3 cards to kill just one your creature, is actually good for you.

good luck

[Koby]

RWM is going to suffer from the metagame packing tons and tons of REB/Pyros. That's a liability for this guy.

[Bignasty197]

I suppose I would have to see a list to accurately rate RWM's efficiency in given scenarios.

[wizard_of_gore]

RWM is going to suffer from the metagame packing tons and tons of REB/Pyros. That's a liability for this guy.

well, in that case, you will run your own hydroblast ;)

[Koby]

well, in that case, you will run your own hydroblast ;)

Nononononono. Timely Reinforcements is far better. If we're going to rape Red for being exactly about 2 things (burn and anti-blue), mise well do it well and make them deal with 3 soldiers and double anti-bolt.

That said, even Timely Reinforcement isn't worth it.

[lordofthepit]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions.

Here are a list of sideboard cards I have used or consider using, which primarily are meant to shore up various aggro matchups, but I've also listed other matchups in which they're useful.

1) Path to Exile: Great against Big Zoo and Maverick (or anything that runs Knight of the Reliquary); very good against small Zoo and Merfolk. Amazing against Affinity, Dredge, Canadian, Team America, and BUG Control (which don't run basics). Not very useful against Elves or Goblins, but this deck is really hurting for ways to deal with Goblin Lackey on the draw (Aether Vial isn't as scary since it takes a few turns to get active and you can always tutor up a Pridemage if things get out of hand). There are times when I would rather have Dismember, but you really need to remove opposing Knights.
2) Elspeth: The stone-cold nuts against Zoo and Maverick. Terrific against U/W Stoneblade and BUG control (since they have a terrible clock but often board into Wrath of God/Pernicious Deed and use 6-8 removal spells + Snapcaster Mage). Also great against black-based aggro decks. I like her against Goblins if you can get to 4 mana through Wasteland and Port, since this allows your fatties to avoid being chump-blocked forever.
3) Umezawa's Jitte: Great against Elves, Merfolk, and Goblins (i.e. will single-handedly win the game if you can avoid Submerge and/or Gempalm Incinerator). Good against G/W Maverick, since if you can avoid getting stoned out by Mother of Runes. Deceptively bad against Zoo and G/W/r Maverick, since they have just way too much removal, meaning any equipment is often a tempo sink. In my opinion, almost as bad against U/W Stoneblade and BUG control: even all of their creatures get owned by an active Jitte, they are also packed with removal and rely less on creatures than do Zoo and Maverick. Strong against Burn, since forcing them to save burn for your creatures is pretty awesome (and therefore, the tempo loss isn't that bad).
4) Engineered Explosives: Amazing against small Zoo and Elves. I haven't faced a Merfolk deck in months, but I imagine it's as good as it gets here, since Lord of Atlantis is the only relevant creature they play against our fatties (barring Merrow Reejery shenanigans), and our deck has almost no two-drops. Randomly useful against Counterbalance. Potentailly strong against U/W Stoneblade and BUG Control, but we have a lot of good cards for that matchup, so I don't usually board this in. Owns the crap out of Dredge if you have almost anything else relevant. Deals with random decks like Enchantress and Death and Taxes which would otherwise destroy us.
5) Stoneforge package with Batterskull and Jitte: I would give this more serious thought if Merfolk and Goblins were running amok as they were at the beginning of the year. The issue for me is that I don't want to run Stoneforge maindeck, so I can't justify using the narrow Sword of X and Y cards, which means Batterskull and Jitte as the most generally useful cards. However, Batterskull almost compels us to run more Stoneforge Mystics since it's awful if you draw it naturally (or your SFM gets removed). Meanwhile, it doesn't really help us against fair aggro decks like Zoo and Maverick since they have so much removal, run 4-8 virtual copies of Qasali Pridemage, blank us with Mother of Runes, or tutor up a Maze of Ith/Tower of the Magistrate. It also is really lame against Tempo decks since you just run into Spell Snare, Stifle (on Stoneforge or on Living Weapon trigger), or removal on your Stoneforge. I tried this once and absolutely hate it; I'd rather just run extra Jittes.
6) Rhox War Monk: Amazing against Burn. Good against Merfolk and Zoo. I find Burn to be a pretty easy matchup though (for Bant, at least--I think Burn is underrated in general when played by a good pilot), and there are other options that are better against Merfolk/Zoo while still being more useful against the field. I would consider running RWM against Goblins only because there are so many dead cards in that matchup, but I don't think it really affects things a lot, since they have the better long game and can just wait to assemble a huge horde. Kitchen Finks is another card I have considered but rejected for similar reasons.
7) Thrun the Last Troll: Great against Zoo, Tempo, and control, but I think I would almost always rather play Elspeth, even if it can be countered and can't be Zenithed.

[Koby]

I'm not thrilled about that list aside from PtE and Jittes. Against creature decks, running 2-3 Jitte isn't a bad idea, and goes back to old-school Jitte lesson: more is better. Having it trade for theirs is pretty decent too.

[koba]

For those of you who don't run Stoneforge Mystic, how do you shore up the Goblins matchup? (I refuse to run Stoneforge Mystic in Bant since there are too many Spell Snares, Lightning Bolts, and Punishing Fires running around at my local store, and it's such a tempo beating compared to running GSZ.)

I haven't lost any matches against Goblins yet, but I think I've benefited from good luck and opponent pilot error. Currently, I run a few SB Paths to shore up the Zoo/Maverick/Merfolk matchup, Elspeth to help against Zoo/control, and Engineered Explosives against small Zoo/Elves/random. The problem is none of these options are really great against Goblins, since Path just accelerates them even more, Elspeth is often too slow, and Engineered Explosives suffers from their varied curve. Even worse, cards like Spell Pierce and Spell Snare are pretty bad in this matchup; Force of Will, while not great, would be one of our better cards (if only for lack of decent SB material to bring in) if the blue count weren't so low after boarding out Pierce and Snare.

I've considered Umezawa's Jitte and Dueling Grounds to shore up the matchup, but after trying Jitte for over a month, I've found that in most matchups where I thought it might be useful, my creature would simply get removed in response to the equip, setting me back in tempo. Dueling Grounds and other cards like Absolute Law, Burrenton Forge-Tender, etc. are too narrow to justify a spot.

Is this a matchup you just ignore, or is there any special sideboard tech? (My maindeck is very similar to ruckus', except I run slightly more lands and do not run Snapcaster, which I imagine would help things out a lot against Goblins.)

Mainboard:

Snapcaster is a very easy two for one.

Daze is also pretty good against goblins and (obviously) a lot better than spell pierce or snare in this matchup. If you encounter goblins a lot, I would advocate running three daze main.

At sideboard:

I ran 4 mystics, a jitte and a batterskull in my sideboard at GP Amsterdam (to a 65th place). Although I did not face any agro deck, they were ok (not great). I boarded them in against UW stoneblade and other grinding matchups where the games probably goes long.

If you do not like this, you should run 2 or 3 jitte. It really is the best card against goblins and if you play around removal, you should be fine. Hydroblast and especially dueling grounds is just too narrow.

I would not mind facing goblins all day long by the way.

[Bignasty197]

If the Goblins MU is a beating, put 2 SFM, 1 Jitte and 1 SoFI in the board. If you want to take a different approach, pack like 2 Chills and 2 Jittes in the board. I think Chill is very underrated right now and could be really good in the right metagame(Goblins, Punishing Fire, Zoo sometimes, Painter, random red decks). If you stick one early enough, you can ride it to an easy win.

[KobeBryan]

I want to start playing aggro bant since My merfolk deck and rock deck keeps getting spanked in tournaments.

any criticisms on my deck

lands
1 forest
1 island
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
4 misty rainforests
1 savannah
4 tropical islands
2 tundra
3 wastelands
3 windswept heaths

creatures
1 dryad arbor
4 knights of the reliquary
1 edric
2 geist of saint traft
4 noble heirarchs
2 scavenging ooze
2 quasali pridemage
2 tarmogoyf

instants
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorms
4 force of wills
3 daze

enchantments
1 sylvan library

sorcery
3 green sun zenith

planeswalkers
2 jace TMS

sideboard
1 tormods crypt
3 surgical extractions
3 path to exiles
3 spell pierces
1 flusterstorm
2 meddling mage
1 quasali pridemage
1 bojuka bog

[Artlee]

What decks does Brian Kibler board armageddon against?

[Skeggi]

I suppose against Control.

[Tammit67]

I suppose against Control.

I played Kibler's main almost card for card and it worked out really well for me today, top 8'd a small 27 person event. The sideboard was different however.

My only loss was to UWB landstill with perish, and even then I didn't see a clique in any of the 3 games. 'Geddon would have been decent in that matchup.

[KobeBryan]

How do you guys stop a turn 1 blood moon being on the draw?

Without a FOW of course. Do you play on or scoop?

[Bzka]

If your opponent doesnt know what you are playing and you have no basic forest after your first draw, i would rather scoop.

[dsck]

How do you guys stop a turn 1 blood moon being on the draw?

Without a FOW of course. Do you play on or scoop?

Depends if you wanna show what you are playing and see whats your opponents game plan (dragon stompy or painter). You also have chances to draw your basic forest and pull out a win. You could even just land-go until you play batterskull if your opponent has nothing but the blood moon and slow clock.

[dsck]

If your opponent doesnt know what you are playing and you have no basic forest after your first draw, i would rather scoop.

This matchup isnt about having time for g2 and g3 as the games are over pretty fast. Why scoop if you have outs unless you want to hide you are playing bant?

[Bzka]

This matchup isnt about having time for g2 and g3 as the games are over pretty fast. Why scoop if you have outs unless you want to hide you are playing bant?

Hiding your deck seems like a better idea here as drawing one basic forest out of 50 cards is unlikely to happen. Maybe they will not board their REB in which gives you a better shot at game 2

[Skeggi]

Wouldn't you like to know if that's Imperial Painter or Dragon Stompy you're playing against? I would like to know that first: there's a huge difference between expecting Red Elemental Blast or Chalice of the Void. After that, scooping depends on the time left on the clock. It doesn't really matter if your opponent knows what you're playing: he knows Blood Moon did the trick, so he might be packing more of those from the sideboard. Might as well have a look at his deck first and perhaps try to draw that singleton basic Forest. I also run a singleton basic Plains by the way, so if the Moon effect comes from Magus I have an extra out in the form of Swords to Plowshares.

[KobeBryan]

How come no one likes running Rhox War Monk?

[Tammit67]

How come no one likes running Rhox War Monk?

Someone asked that on just the previous page. There are a lot of red blasts right now, and he doesn't fair so well

[KobeBryan]

I'm having a really hard time beating Iscare's maverick deck.

ANyone have any suggestions on beating the deck?

[Ajsmirnov]

I'm having a really hard time beating Iscare's maverick deck.

ANyone have any suggestions on beating the deck?

My testing shows that the best way to beat Maverick is to run Natural Order - Progenitus. If you don't play it MD, try to side it.

Sample sb
4 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Bojuka Bog

[iScare]

I'm having a really hard time beating Iscare's maverick deck.

ANyone have any suggestions on beating the deck?

It's not the deck, you're just not good with it. You should just stick with Eva Green since you can totally own GW/x Maverick with it.

If you can't beat me, you might as well scoop when you see other Mav players as they are probably 10X better.

[majikal]

It's not the deck, you're just not good with it. You should just stick with Eva Green since you can totally own GW/x Maverick with it.

If you can't beat me, you might as well scoop when you see other Mav players as they are probably 10X better.
That's not really fair. Bant is at a disadvantage against Maverick in game 1, true, but you can make it not as bad post-sideboard.

NO-PRO is a good start, but it doesn't work after game 2, since they'll bring in E. Tutor for Metamorph and just continue to beat you.

Siding out Force of Will for more removal is also a good idea.

Good luck!

[lordofthepit]

That's not really fair. Bant is at a disadvantage against Maverick in game 1, true, but you can make it not as bad post-sideboard.

NO-PRO is a good start, but it doesn't work after game 2, since they'll bring in E. Tutor for Metamorph and just continue to beat you.

Siding out Force of Will for more removal is also a good idea.

Good luck!

I consider Bant to be favored against Maverick in game 1, but weaker after the Chokes and other hate come in.

Game 1 resolves around sticking a Knight of the Reliquary. Both decks run equal numbers of Knights, GSZs, and removal, but Bant has Force of Will to deal with those bombs (as well as and Spell Pierce for GSZ), plus Brainstorms and Jaces to find them. Maverick has the somewhat annoying Mother of Runes and Aven Mindcensor.

I have found the Stoneforge Mystic package to be a tempo sink, especially when your opponent has an active Jace on the table.

[Ajsmirnov]

NO-PRO is a good start, but it doesn't work after game 2, since they'll bring in E. Tutor for Metamorph and just continue to beat you.

But you can FOW Metamorph, or V.Clique before NO Tutor and beat them. They do nothing with it.

[Fatal]

Ever heard of Wing Shards ? Its very hard to counter..

[KobeBryan]

How come no one uses scryb ranger

[The Duck!!]

Hey guys ,what's up? I'm currently playtesting this build. feel free to comment on it.:)

Creature:
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage

Instant/Sorcery:
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Planeswalker:
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Lands:
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon's Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island

Sideboard:
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Pithing Needle

[Vandalize]

Hey guys ,what's up? I'm currently playtesting this build. feel free to comment on it.:)

Creature:
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage

Instant/Sorcery:
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Planeswalker:
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Lands:
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Horizon's Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island

Sideboard:
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Pithing Needle

Hmm, I'd say -3 Snapcaster Mage (he has only 10 targets in main deck), and +1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, +1 Knight of the Reliquary, +1 Rhox War Monk (or another Pridemage). Sideboard is fine, but I'd switch 1 Surgical for a Tormod's Crypt.

Snapcaster Mage is cute, but Bant Aggro isn't a late game control deck. People should play it more like GW Maverick, but with Brainstorm, FoW and Jace TMS.

[from Cairo]

I'd agree with Vandalize that Snapcaster is short on targets in this archetype and that Knight 4 would be preferable. I think another Planeswalker in one of the slots is solid as well, Jace or Elspeth - I like Kibler's list with the split - but can respect that Jace might be more powerful. Last spot could go to a number of things, extra QPM/Ooze slot, extra Pierce, a PtE, a Bird of Paradise, etc. Maybe you could even roll with a 1 of Snapcaster buffs your Blue count, psudo extra removal/Pierce - might not be the worst, just don't think the number of instants in the deck supports 3 of them.

[lordofthepit]

Hmm, I'd say -3 Snapcaster Mage (he has only 10 targets in main deck), and +1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, +1 Knight of the Reliquary, +1 Rhox War Monk (or another Pridemage). Sideboard is fine, but I'd switch 1 Surgical for a Tormod's Crypt.

Snapcaster Mage is cute, but Bant Aggro isn't a late game control deck. People should play it more like GW Maverick, but with Brainstorm, FoW and Jace TMS.

Don't forget Vendilion Clique! That card does so much work in this deck.

[KobeBryan]

Creatures (18)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 rhox war monk
1 scryb ranger

Instants (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze

Planeswalker (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library

Lands(20)
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Forest

Sorcery (4)
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 ponder

Sideboard
3 spell pierce
1 gaddock teeg?
3 Path to Exile
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Natural Order
1 Proginetus

what do you think of this decklist? Is it a good idea to go without the stoneforge package and vendilion clique?

[Skeggi]

what do you think of this decklist? Is it a good idea to go without the stoneforge package and vendilion clique?
You're running 17 blue cards maindeck. With such a low bluecount, you may consider counters like Spell Pierce or Spell Snare over Force of Will. If you think cutting Force of Will is ridiculous, you should up your blue count.

[KobeBryan]

You're running 17 blue cards maindeck. With such a low bluecount, you may consider counters like Spell Pierce or Spell Snare over Force of Will. If you think cutting Force of Will is ridiculous, you should up your blue count.

I have 18 blue cards...do you think thats enough?

[iScare]

Take out a BoP & Scryb Ranger and put +2 Clique. That card owns.

[Skeggi]

I have 18 blue cards...do you think thats enough?

Oh, didn't see the Ponder down there. 18 is indeed the bare minimum, however I feel you need at least 20 to get full use out of Forc of Will. But honestly, I get the feeling Force of Will is becoming a sideboardcard rather than a main deck card since it's not that good against RUG Delver, Mageblade, Maverick, Merfolk, Goblins, Dredge or Team America. Against these decks you don't want the CDA, more often cheap counters like Spell Snare or Spell Pierce are better or you want extra removal like Path to Exile.

[KobeBryan]

Oh, didn't see the Ponder down there. 18 is indeed the bare minimum, however I feel you need at least 20 to get full use out of Forc of Will.

sigh...i guess i'll blow 50 bucks on two cliques.

[mini1337s]

sigh...i guess i'll blow 50 bucks on two cliques.
They'll sit at $25 for awhile though, and they are used in a lot of Legacy decks. It's not the worst $50 you'll ever spend :P

[iScare]

With 2 cliques, you'll have your blue count to 20. Which is exactly what you need.
It'll all be worth it when you are not 400/400 in this upcoming SCGLA.

[Vandalize]

Sup guys. I've been brewing a Bant Aggro list for a while, and slowly getting all the cards (it's an very expensive deck, indeed). I'd like to hear some advices from people that are expert on this archtype.

The list:

Lands [20]
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Forest/Island (not sure yet which)

Creatures [20]
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vedilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze

Spells [15]
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze

Others [5]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Sideboard [15]
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Natural Order
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Spell Pierce

The land count might seem low. I've been trying to up it to 21, but don't really know what to cut (and 61 cards is janky). Good news my meta is full of Dredge/Storm/Maverick/Stoneblade/BW Stoneforge, and low appearance of Tempo decks.

3 Surgical, 2 Tormod's, 1 Bojuka Bog is the minimum package to have good wins G2 and G3 against Dredge. It's a tough matchup, and I can tell because that's my first deck.

Any comments or advices? They'll be really appreciated.

[from Cairo]

@ Vandalize

I'd suggest Forest for your basic. It turns on Noble, which in turn, can turn on your other spells under a B2B, Choke, Wastelock, Blood Moon, etc. I would run a Savannah over a Tundra as well. I personally prefer the GSZ toolbox to the SFM one, but I suppose that could come down to meta/playstyle. I'd probably go with 3 Spell Pierce over Flusterstorm - having more game against non-Storm can be desirable at times - Reanimator/Show and Tell, BUG control, Artifact decks, Burn, Planeswalkers, etc.


EDIT: for the 21st land I feel like you could cut a SFM, it's not something I look forward to seeing multiples of early in the game. It takes a lot of time/mana and the first one will fetch the most relevant piece of equipment.

[Tammit67]

I'm currently using a GSZ package over SFM and love it. My biggest problem is keeping the blue count high and keeping in Elspeths. I don't know how worth it Geist is without the equipment, but he would be a good solution to upping the blue count for Force.