[Deck] Bant

[mini1337s]

Sup guys. I've been brewing a Bant Aggro list for a while, and slowly getting all the cards (it's an very expensive deck, indeed). I'd like to hear some advices from people that are expert on this archtype.

The list:

Lands [20]
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Forest/Island (not sure yet which)

Creatures [20]
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vedilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze

Spells [15]
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze

Others [5]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

Sideboard [15]
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Natural Order
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Spell Pierce

The land count might seem low. I've been trying to up it to 21, but don't really know what to cut (and 61 cards is janky). Good news my meta is full of Dredge/Storm/Maverick/Stoneblade/BW Stoneforge, and low appearance of Tempo decks.

3 Surgical, 2 Tormod's, 1 Bojuka Bog is the minimum package to have good wins G2 and G3 against Dredge. It's a tough matchup, and I can tell because that's my first deck.

Any comments or advices? They'll be really appreciated.

In addition to From Cairo's advice, I would cut 1 Tropical Island for an island. Echoing what he said, Blood Moon effects are rough.

[Skeggi]

In that case also -1 Windswept Heath, +1 Misty Rainforest

[The Duck!!]

@Vandalize,you have mainboard 1 ooze but you don't have GSZ to tutor it? No offense but I'd still take the GSZ tool box route. GSZ for me is still one of the best card to play when using bant,especially with decks like these. Just my opinion though.

@my earlier post of my current build with 3 SCM main. snapcaster mage is just nuts for me. It's a 2 for 1 card when hits the play. With my current build of 3 KotR's 3 SCM 2 Jace,tms, these guys just wins games. My current counter-base is 4 FoW's 3 Daze 2 Spell Pierce + 3 Vendilion Cliques for disruptions.

[Tammit67]

I absolutely think it is a mistake to not run Elspeth right now.

[KobeBryan]

I absolutely think it is a mistake to not run Elspeth right now.

What would you replace for elspeth? The MD is as tight as is already. And getting to double white might cause some trouble because the white is really the last mana we really fetch for.

on another note, would you run 1 forest or 1 forest and 1 island as your main land count.

[iScare]

What would you replace for elspeth? The MD is as tight as is already. And getting to double white might cause some trouble because the white is really the last mana we really fetch for.

on another note, would you run 1 forest or 1 forest and 1 island as your main land count.

1 forest and 1 island.

[Tammit67]

Top 4'd a local 25 man with:

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
4 Misty rainforest
3 Flooded strand
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad arbor
1 Karakas

4 Noble hierarch
4 Knight of the reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali pridemage
3 Vendillion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
3 Force of will
3 Green sun's zenith
2 Elspeth, Knight-errant
2 Jace, the mind sculptor

SB:
2 Submerge
1 Flusterstorm
2 Path to exile
1 Armageddon
1 Krosan Grip
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tower of the magistrates
1 Bojuka bog
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Crucible of worlds

Rds: Burning bridges (win, Ace Homebrew here on the source), URgb CBtop with punishing fire (win, Robin Meeker-cummings, top 2'd), SFM Bant (Loss), RWg sligh (win, Harry Matten Gillen, HungryLikeALion on the source), ID.

Top 8: GWr Punishing fire maverick (win). Punishing fire really dilutes the deck.

Top 4: GW Maverick (loss). My manabase was not the most stable there, but even with better lands it would have been an uphill battle.

Gonna right a small report once I feel less tired. Deck was solid, force is bad, elspeth is insane, and with no one running goyf, goyf would have been a good threat. Weird.

[from Cairo]

Played a 4Rd local tonight with a take on Bant.

Creatures 15
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage

Instants 16
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

Sorceries 4
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Planeswalkers 3
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands 22
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor

Sideboard 15
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember
2 Submerge
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Flusterstorm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Armageddon
1 Force of Will

Match ups:
Rd1 vs Bant 2-1
Rd2 vs Nic Fit 2-0
Rd3 vs Hexmage Rock 2-0
Rd4 vs Bant 1-1-1 ran to time

Didn't really take notes, but Submerge and Dismember were both very good in Tempoing the Mirror. Force of Will was underwhelming in this metagame, but it worked ok. My meta usually has a couple Reanimator and Storm, and I felt uncomfortable not having it for those potential matches.

I was happy with the list, the only change I would definitely make would be dropping 1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant for 1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

[lordofthepit]

Top 4'd a local 25 man with:

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
4 Misty rainforest
3 Flooded strand
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad arbor
1 Karakas

4 Noble hierarch
4 Knight of the reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali pridemage
3 Vendillion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
3 Force of will
3 Green sun's zenith
2 Elspeth, Knight-errant
2 Jace, the mind sculptor

Holy cow, just yesterday I was thinking "The singleton Tarmogoyf has been kind of underwhelming overall and I'd like to move a copy of Force of Will to the sideboard, replacing those two cards with Snapcaster to shore up my tribal matchup". With those changes, my deck list is (aside from minor changes in the manabase) -2 Elspeth, +1 GSZ, +1 Jace away from yours!

That coincidence might not be that exciting to anyone else, but it's reassuring to know that other people have already cut cards that were previously deemed "sacred cows".

[Tammit67]

I was expecting a ton of maverick, so upping the Elspeth count was completely worth it. That and getting to see the look on my opponents face when their Jace TMS can't handle Elspeth.

If your list and mine are that similar (and same with Cairo's), then that seems like a good place to be :cool:

[lordofthepit]

I was expecting a ton of maverick, so upping the Elspeth count was completely worth it. That and getting to see the look on my opponents face when their Jace TMS can't handle Elspeth.

If your list and mine are that similar (and same with Cairo's), then that seems like a good place to be :cool:

Definitely. I like Elspeth even more than Jace, but I want to keep the blue count reasonably high in the main. I have her in the sideboard against "fair decks".

No way in hell I ever go below 4 GSZ though! :smile:

[Chikenbok]

Hey guys,

Long time combo player just made the decision that interaction and turning things sideways was the way for me to go once again and decided to give Bant a proper try so I'm thinking about brewing a list. This is what I've come up with so far and it's been unbelievable in testing (as brief as that testing might be) - any input would be appreciated.

Beats: 16
4 x Knight of the Reliquary
4 x Noble Hierarch
3 x Snapcaster Mage
3 x Vendilion Clique
2 x Stoneforge Mystic

Spells: 23
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Daze
3 x Force of Will
3 x Spell Snare
1 x Ponder
4 x Swords to Plowshares
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 x Sword of Feast and Famine
1 x Umezawa's Jitte

Lands: 21
3 x MIsty Rainforest
3 x Windswept Heath
2 x Flooded Strand
4 x Tropical Island
2 x Tundra
1 x Savannah
4 x Wasteland
1 x Karakas
1 x Forest

It's a bit more controlling than the lists I've seen around but by upping the spell count, snapcaster has really proved to hold its own weight. I haven't jumped on the geist wagon yet, but it is tempting.

[KobeBryan]

green sun's zenith is your best friend.

Give him a try. I still don't like snapcaster mage. But who knows.

[Chikenbok]

green sun's zenith is your best friend.

Give him a try. I still don't like snapcaster mage. But who knows.

I feel as though in order to make GSZ work well I'd have to cut the Snaps to add targets for the zeniths (ooze, qasali, scryb, etc) so right now I kind of feel like its a decision I have to make between the two. I'll be running both lists through the gauntlet this week to see which performs better.

[KobeBryan]

How do you guys beat pox and the gate. These two decks simply wreck you.

[iScare]

How do you guys beat pox and the gate. These two decks simply wreck you.

You stand up and shake his hand and say "Good game. Good luck on the rest of the tournament." Then drive home.

[KobeBryan]

You stand up and shake his hand and say "Good game. Good luck on the rest of the tournament." Then drive home.

You don't even play bant

[Tammit67]

@ Chikenbok: Looks very solid. I'd drop a Jace for 1 Elspeth, but thats really it. You can't run counters and GSZ and Stoneforge. And which you want is entirely dependent on meta. I'd be interested in how daze has been for you, as I have traded mine in for spell pierce for now, but I don't know how much I like that either. Daze seems to go well with this deck since you tap out so often early. Do you have a sideboard worked out?

[Chikenbok]

@ Chikenbok: Looks very solid. I'd drop a Jace for 1 Elspeth, but thats really it. You can't run counters and GSZ and Stoneforge. And which you want is entirely dependent on meta. I'd be interested in how daze has been for you, as I have traded mine in for spell pierce for now, but I don't know how much I like that either. Daze seems to go well with this deck since you tap out so often early. Do you have a sideboard worked out?

Its quite funny actually. Everyone with whom I test says "God damn it, drop a jace and throw in an elspeth" But i love jace so much.. I feel like if every card in my deck were a Jace I couldn't lose - but I'll give it a try and see how it runs.

I feel like this version is much more reactive, its almost like... play a hierarch and sit until you resolve a beater while you keep the board clean. Having 8 virtual removal spells makes a single KotR a serious threat and the two SFM keep the threat density high.

The deck (the build that I'm running at least) run's to the point where - if I don't have a threat to play, than my opponent should be worried about the 5 counters in my hand.

On Daze - Its a bomb. Straight up, people just don't care anymore, they walk into it no matter how hard you represent it. Pierce is amazing, especially with Snaps and they might take place of my snares depending on how things evolve but only time will tell.

In the mean time, turn 1 hierarch with daze backup, or turn 2 Knight/SFM with daze is.. it feels good. I play tap-out control until about turn 4/5 so until then I like representing daze.

I've actually considered replacing snare with mana leak.. Its kind of amazing... no one's ever prepared for it. - Testing will tell.

EDIT: SB-

This is what I've been toying with
3 x Meddling Mage
2 x Scavenging Ooze
1 x Sylvan Library
1 x Life from the loam
1 x Nature's Claim
2 x Path to Exile
2 x Purify the Grave
3 x Spell Pierce

[Tammit67]

Never been happy with purify, why not just extraction?

[Artlee]

Never been happy with purify, why not just extraction?

They each have their merits. Purify is more resilient vs counters while extraction hits harder. IMO it comes down to if you are facing mostly reanimator/snapcaster or other GY based strategies like punishing fire.

If you only need to exile single cards like snapcaster- and reanimator targets, Purify survives a counter. Removing a single punishing fire or a single dredger/bridge on the other side just isn't doing enough. That is where Extraction is better IMO. Throw in a snapcaster and it hits even harder, but there are cases versus reanimator where you just haven't developed the mana to perform these moves.

tl;dr: It's all about the meta.

[Tammit67]

They each have their merits. Purify is more resilient vs counters while extraction hits harder. IMO it comes down to if you are facing mostly reanimator/snapcaster or other GY based strategies like punishing fire.

If you only need to exile single cards like snapcaster- and reanimator targets, Purify survives a counter. Removing a single punishing fire or a single dredger/bridge on the other side just isn't doing enough. That is where Extraction is better IMO. Throw in a snapcaster and it hits even harder, but there are cases versus reanimator where you just haven't developed the mana to perform these moves.

tl;dr: It's all about the meta.

Purify doesn't answer fires as well. That is a given. Same with heavily GY dependent decks like loam/dredge.

I also feel it doesn't answer Reanimator/snapcaster as well either. Not having to pay mana is a big deal, and being able to snap it back for free is a big deal. In order for Purify to survive a counter you have to have WW, and early as you say. I'd rather develop my board and always have an answer in my hand ready to cast a la faerie macabre. Especially if I am playing a good amount of snapcasters so I can play through a counter for 1U and 4 life instead of WW.

Even in snapcaster matchups, I like extraction better. If mana is so tight, why pay mana?

Hell in both cases I might want to remove a brainstorm or something from the yard early, knowing I can snap extraction back for value later. The information on what they exactly boarded in and have in hand is priceless. And sometimes you just get to waste a turn one land and they don't get to have tundra for the rest of the game.

[Chikenbok]

@Tammit - you're without a doubt right on this one - I had the purifys in there because of a list I had been playing a few days earlier while working on the brew without snapcasters. However, with the snaps in the deck there is no question that extraction is the better card to be played here.

[Chikenbok]

After a relatively large amount of testing against most of the current top tier decks - I've found that a version higher in counters (Spell Snare) with access to snapcaster has VASTLY outperformed the green sun brew. It might be just my playstyle, but y'all should give the brew a shot.

Only thing I'm considering changing is - as Tammit pointed out, replacing daze with spierce SIMPLY because of snapcaster.

[Koby]

After a relatively large amount of testing against most of the current top tier decks - I've found that a version higher in counters (Spell Snare) with access to snapcaster has VASTLY outperformed the green sun brew. It might be just my playstyle, but y'all should give the brew a shot.

Only thing I'm considering changing is - as Tammit pointed out, replacing daze with spierce SIMPLY because of snapcaster.

If you're looking to cut out GSZ completely, then consider this list (quite a bit outdated, but this was what I played a year ago). Dazes can definitly be replaced with MD Pierce, and Snapcaster can be added in place of Qasali Pridemage. Goyfs could potentially be cut as well, likely in place for a few (2? 3?) GSZ. Anyways, I ended up going 5-2-1 with it at SCG San jose.

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmgoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliaquary
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Jace TMS
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

SB:
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire/Ice
2 Path to Exile
4 Spell Pierce
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Trygon Predator

[Chikenbok]

That's essentially the list I'm running now I've just added 2 MD Stoneforge, 1 more v. clique, and 3 snapcasters and cut the goyfs and qasalis. I'm constantly changing between 3/4 forces, but for now 3 has been performing real well. I just need to test out the elspeth over the third Jace.

[Koby]

That's essentially the list I'm running now I've just added 2 MD Stoneforge, 1 more v. clique, and 3 snapcasters and cut the goyfs and qasalis. I'm constantly changing between 3/4 forces, but for now 3 has been performing real well. I just need to test out the elspeth over the third Jace.

Elspeth was definitely the reason I won a few games. I highly recommend playing 2 Jace 1 Elspeth at minimum. A third Jace isn't a bad idea either. Consider too that GSZ allows you to cast Jace or Elspeth as soon as turn 3.

[Tammit67]

After a relatively large amount of testing against most of the current top tier decks - I've found that a version higher in counters (Spell Snare) with access to snapcaster has VASTLY outperformed the green sun brew. It might be just my playstyle, but y'all should give the brew a shot.

Only thing I'm considering changing is - as Tammit pointed out, replacing daze with spierce SIMPLY because of snapcaster.

I've been thinking about just that. As good as GSZ has been, I do really like snapcaster.

[KobeBryan]

Rukcus...who do you train with? I keep playing with Iscare and he just doesn't help me improve my skills.

[Koby]

Rukcus...who do you train with? I keep playing with Iscare and he just doesn't help me improve my skills.

MTGO for general testing; local guys for specific matchups that can't be modelled right with MTGO. Good playtesting should stop at important points to discuss the lines of play, ways around them, backing up game states and trying something different, etc.

[KobeBryan]

MTGO for general testing; local guys for specific matchups that can't be modelled right with MTGO. Good playtesting should stop at important points to discuss the lines of play, ways around them, backing up game states and trying something different, etc.

hmmm...thanks. I should let iscare take his misplays back.

[KobeBryan]

If you're looking to cut out GSZ completely, then consider this list (quite a bit outdated, but this was what I played a year ago). Dazes can definitly be replaced with MD Pierce, and Snapcaster can be added in place of Qasali Pridemage. Goyfs could potentially be cut as well, likely in place for a few (2? 3?) GSZ. Anyways, I ended up going 5-2-1 with it at SCG San jose.

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmgoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliaquary
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Jace TMS
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

SB:
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire/Ice
2 Path to Exile
4 Spell Pierce
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1 Trygon Predator

is it better to use ponder than library?

also, how do you beat a graveyard deck with 1 bojuka bog?

[Koby]

(quite a bit outdated, but this was what I played a year ago).

[KobeBryan]

still man...reanimator was still prevalent and aggro loam too.

[iScare]

MTGO for general testing; local guys for specific matchups that can't be modelled right with MTGO. Good playtesting should stop at important points to discuss the lines of play, ways around them, backing up game states and trying something different, etc.

Maybe we can all go to MTGDeals and practice before this sunday. =) Always nice to meet a few new faces.

[KobeBryan]

Maybe we can all go to MTGDeals and practice before this sunday. =) Always nice to meet a few new faces.

There's no benefit for him to test with you....

the only thing he will learn is that there are people out there that make epic misplays one after another..

[ShiftyKapree]

Switched back to Natural Order and I can say I really don't miss SFM. I feel like everyone with a spell snare and snapcaster mages in their deck you can land NO and just win. I think a 10/10 pro everything is better than a 3/2 flyer anyday of the week

[KobeBryan]

Report soon to follow. I went 3-2 and dropped. I played a FOW bant and lost pretty bad against FOWless bant and a storm.

Meddling mage is completely useless. FOWless bant was way too fast for a FOW style bant. Geist was king today

[kingsey]

Switched back to Natural Order and I can say I really don't miss SFM. I feel like everyone with a spell snare and snapcaster mages in their deck you can land NO and just win. I think a 10/10 pro everything is better than a 3/2 flyer anyday of the week

I've been debating this myself. What would be an optimal list these days. I've been loving pridemage cause batterskull folds to it.

[unemployer]

I've been playing No Bant for 2 months now and I like it.
Pros: Casting NO>Prog usually is a GG. They were my early wins against RUG, Stoneblade and all other decks
Cons: Aggro decks like Zoo, Merfolk and Goblins are hard to win. Maybe Mavericks too but I haven't fought one yet

[ShiftyKapree]

When I play NO Bant I never have a problem with aggro lists, the key is to running 3-4 pte's in the sideboard of the deck. Here's the list I've been playing with lately
4 FOW
4 BS
4 STP
3 Daze
3 GSZ
3 Ponder's?
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Natural Order
3 V Clique
3 KotR
4 NH
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Pridemage
1 Prog
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Trops
2 Tundra
2 Savanah's
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
This list is off the top of my head bc my deck is home currently and I'm away at school. I know it runs ponders but I'm not sure if it is three of them. G/W Maverick is an easy match up, Just don't let them resolve a Mindslicer and your good. Cast Prog and Win. I play 2 savanah's bc of merfolk decks, when I use to play Bant CBT I always would get screwed by that deck for top 8 spots so thats why I have 2 savanahs so they can't island walk me

[Chikenbok]

Finally settled on a list I'm quite happy with - I'd love to find room for 1 Sylvan Library MD but I just can't seem to make a cut that I'm happy with.

Beats:
4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Knight of the Reliquary
3 x Snapcaster Mage
2 x Vendilion Clique
2 x Stoneforge Mystic
1 x Geist of Saint Traft

Spells:
4 x Force of Will
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Swords to Plowshares
3 x Spell Snare
3 x Daze
2 x Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
1 x Sword of Feast and Famine

21 Lands

SB:
3 x Meddling Mage
1 x Scavenging Ooze
2 x Krosan Grip
2 x Path to Exile
3 x Surgical Extraction
3 x Spell Pierce
1 x Sylvan Library

[KobeBryan]

Finally settled on a list I'm quite happy with - I'd love to find room for 1 Sylvan Library MD but I just can't seem to make a cut that I'm happy with.

Beats:
4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Knight of the Reliquary
3 x Snapcaster Mage
2 x Vendilion Clique
2 x Stoneforge Mystic
1 x Geist of Saint Traft

Spells:
4 x Force of Will
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Swords to Plowshares
3 x Spell Snare
3 x Daze
2 x Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
1 x Sword of Feast and Famine

21 Lands

SB:
3 x Meddling Mage
1 x Scavenging Ooze
2 x Krosan Grip
2 x Path to Exile
3 x Surgical Extraction
3 x Spell Pierce
1 x Sylvan Library

drop a daze or a plow because you have 3 snapcasters.

I suggest taking out meddling mage...That guy sucks.

[KobeBryan]

Played in SCGLA this weekend. I went 3-2 and dropped.

Here is my decklist

Deck
Creatures (17)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 vendilion clique
2 stoneforge mystic

artifact (2)
1 sword of light and shadow
1 umezawa's jitte

Instants (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze

Planeswalker (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor Enchantment (1)
1 Sylvan Library

Lands(21)
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 plains

Sorcery (2)
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
1 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
2 krosan grip
1 qasali pridemage
1 meddling mage
1 rhox war monk
1 gaddock teeg

Match 1 v. UW stoneblade
- This deck was running invisible stalker instead of delvers. It was mainly to get the swords in

Game 1. I dropped a geist turn 3. Eventually the geist gets equipped with a sword and kept swinging for the win.
- Took out 3 FOW and 3 daze for 3 path to exile and 2 krosan grip and 1 qasali

Game 2. I kept a very greedy hand. Only 1 land with a brainstorm on the draw, so I thought hey...this hand is keepable. Anyways, I could not draw a land for 5 turns. When I did draw a land, it was stifled on the fetch or wasteland. Eventually the opponent drops a stoneforge mystic with an equipment. I scooped. Even without lands, it was a very very long match.

Game 3. I was land flooded, but the opponent was mana screwed. I got a geist online around turn 4 or 5. I then got a stoneforge mystic, equipped it with the light and shadow and eventually won.

(1-0)

match 2, v. Liam Kane's TES

Game 1. He goes off on turn 2. I did not keep a hand with FOW or any counter magic. I did get a geist in turn 2.
- Out. 2 Jace the Mind sculptor, 1 qasali pridemage, 2 swords to plowshares, In 1 gaddock teeg, 3 spell pierce, 1 meddling mage.

Game 2. Turn 2 I drop a meddling mage, naming LED. Turn 3 i play a vendilion clique. I took his orim's chant and hoped to race. Then On turn 4, he goes off. He first storms for grape shot, kills all my creatures, Then with the extra mana, he storms 9 with empty the warrens.

(1-1)

- Analysis. The meddling mage is useless. TAKE HIM OUT. he does not belong in the deck.

Match 3 v. UW Stoneblade
I kind of forgot how this goes. But I do remember I got a geist in with swords of light and shadow and winning the match.

In the board, I dropped in the same sideboard as Match 1.

(2-1)

Match 4 v. UR delver
Game 1 - He wins the die roll. He drops goblin and continues to burn me. I got some good land draws off of guide so that helped me build advantage. However, I eventually drop a geist on turn 3, turn 4 I drop a sword of light and shadow and won off the back of geist.
- Out 2 jace, 1 qasali, 4 FOW. In grave package, 3 path, and the rhox war monk

Game 2 - He races me and destroys me with 2 delvers. Going second sucks.

Game 3 - Another semi race. I again drop the geist with a sword of light and shadow. Won again. The life gain on the light and shadow nullified any attempts to burn me or attack me with delvers.

(3-1)

Match 5 v. FOWless Bant
Game 1 - I go second. I won with a huge knight of the reliquary. he was down to about 14 and I got the knight with 9 lands in the grave and with a sword of light and shadow for the win.
- Out FOW and daze. In 1 qasali, 2 krosan grip, 3 path to exile, and another I forgot.

Game 2 - I got a greedy hand going second with 1 land and 2 nobles. Couldn't do much when he wasteland my land and killed my nobles. his geist kicked my ass.

Game 3 - I go first. I dropped some cards and a knight. He plays a geist, then a sword with feast and famine with the stone forge mystic. He overruns me with 2 knights, a geist, and a mom.

At this point, my friend and my brother were already losing so I decided to drop. Good tournament day anyways. The geist is a winner. I don't know whether you should play it as a 3 of, but definitely a 2 of. He is just that good with the swords.

I'm still not a big fan of sword of feast and famine, but what do I know.

The meddling mage was pathetic. I think next time I will play 4 spell pierce or play a tutor package with the ethersworn canonist.

I don't need a rhox war monk because of the jitte and the sword of light and shadow. The grips were useful, but when swords come out, its more of a race than anything else.

The paths came in every game against aggro. It was very very useful. Will not play less than 3 paths in this meta.

Next time, I will go sword of fire and ice, a jitte, and a sword of light and shadow with 3 stoneforge mystics. I still do not know what to take out for those 2 other cards. maybe the force of will package.

Another note. I think I will be dropping my dazes for 2 ponders and another stoneforge mystics.

Any criticisms will be appreciated.



This will be the new decklist.

Deck
Creatures
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 vendilion clique
3 stoneforge mystic

artifact (2)
1 sword of fire and ice
1 umezawa's jitte

Instants (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares


Planeswalker (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands(21)
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 plains
1 island

Sorcery (2)
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 ponder

Sideboard
4 Spell Pierce
2 Path to Exile
1 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
2 krosan grip
1 qasali pridemage
2 ethersworn canonist
1 sword of light and shadow

[Chikenbok]

Nice report Avatar:


Regarding the new list, looks like the blue count is pushing REAL low to run FoW properly. Maybe you ought to just cut the package and throw in some spierce/daze? I've gone down to 3 FoW but I don't run Green Sun.

I've stuck with 3 SFM and I run 1 Batterskull and 1 Sword of Feast and Famine. I'm also only running 1 Geist but I might up it to two - with 4 swords and 3 snapcasters there's never really a problem with geist being able to turn sideways (with maze of ith its just so good) - but I still usually rely on a riding a fat knight to victory.

The spell snares I've been running are absolutely amazing and hit 90% of the cards that I don't want to see in the matchup.

If you do end up cutting the forces you'd have room for a MD Elspeth (an MVP since I started playing with her) and perhaps some more beaters.

I guess you've finally convinced me to get rid of MM in the board.. I just figure out what to put in there now... I've been running:

2 x Meddling Mage
2 x Scavenging Ooze
2 x Krosan Grip
3 x Path
3 x Spell Pierce
2 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Tower of the Magistrate

Maybe I'll go - 2 Mage and pull in 1 x Life from the Loam and 1 more extraction.

Thinking about the board, maybe I'll throw in a Jitte and another Sword.. Maybe Light and Shadow.

[Tammit67]

Yeah, your blue count is in the gutter, might as well play counters you know you can cast.

I've been really found of crucible of worlds in the board. Meddling mage seems awkward when ever deck has 3-5 avenues of attack.

[Koby]

I've seen Crucible in some other Bant aggro lists a few months ago. It works really well when the deck already runs Horizon canopy. I think it might have some merit over Life from the Loam if the list does not run any equipment.

I have also had good success with 2-3 Jitte in the SB to bring in. This was also used when I cut the equipment package from the maindeck.

[KobeBryan]

You guys think 17 blue cards is low?

[Tammit67]

You guys think 17 blue cards is low?

That is pretty much the absolute minimum I'd consider running FoW with. I have 20, and I still sometimes have problems.

[KobeBryan]

That is pretty much the absolute minimum I'd consider running FoW with. I have 20, and I still sometimes have problems.

I'm outta space homie...any suggestions on the new list to up the count?

[Chikenbok]

I'm outta space homie...any suggestions on the new list to up the count?

You might want to replace them all together with Pierces, Snares, Dazes (my personal pick) or hell - Mana leaks are kind of unbelievable right now and people generally aren't going to wait till they have an extra three mana up to cast a spell.

I don't know how you could get 3 more blue spells into the list you're currently running, seems like a hell of a task.

[KobeBryan]

You might want to replace them all together with Pierces, Snares, Dazes (my personal pick) or hell - Mana leaks are kind of unbelievable right now and people generally aren't going to wait till they have an extra three mana up to cast a spell.

I don't know how you could get 3 more blue spells into the list you're currently running, seems like a hell of a task.

Yea...I'm not really a fan of daze or spell pierces main.

Daze is good, but horrible later on. I don't want to have a crappy top decking.

I also tend to fetch a forest on the first turn to get my noble out. So I dont' think daze works for me. As for spell pierces, i'm just not a fan of it main deck. On the sideboard yes. This only leaves spell snares or mana leaks. I guess I'll have to test.

[Chikenbok]

Yea...I'm not really a fan of daze or spell pierces main.

Daze is good, but horrible later on. I don't want to have a crappy top decking.

I also tend to fetch a forest on the first turn to get my noble out. So I dont' think daze works for me. As for spell pierces, i'm just not a fan of it main deck. On the sideboard yes. This only leaves spell snares or mana leaks. I guess I'll have to test.

You could try with 3 Snares/Mana Leaks and 1 Snapcaster after cutting the four force of wills, try it before you buy it ;) it might just surprise you as to how consistant a random 1 of snapcaster can be when you've got a snare or a leak in your yard.

[Chikenbok]

Swapped 3 daze with 3 MD spell pierce (as someone might have suggested earlier) because of the inclusion of 3 snapcasters main. Something people might want to have a run at. Daze was great at protecting the turn 1 hierarch but pierce is good at doing everything else.

[KobeBryan]

What do you guys think about going FOWless and Brainstormless bant?

pack the deck with creatures. This does make us vulnerable to Combo decks though

[lochlan]

What do you guys think about going FOWless and Brainstormless bant?

Only if you don't expect to play combo.


pack the deck with creatures. This does make us vulnerable to Combo decks though

That deck is called Maverick, and it's awesome. But, yeah, it's weak against combo.

[Valarne]

Hello people.

After having my own thoughts and reading the last couple of pages of debate, I'd like to ask you about your thoughts on Elspeth and Stoneforge. The backdrop of this discussion is that a lot of the decklists have different choices, but with most of the cards I feel pretty firm in my own evaluation - with Elspeth, and to some degree Stoneforge, less so.

I am skeptic though, and will present why in the following. I hope you can enlighten me as to why you think they belong, despite my points of critique.

Elspeth: She has the spot of Jace, Thrun, and I guess Natural Order, but that's a longer discussion. Basically it's Jace and Thrun. I feel that the power of Bant is the ability to put pressure on the opponent, while still having a strong degree of play and reactive options available. Elspeth is to me a bit overkill in the "putting permanents on the table, and oftenly applying pressure" department. And she is a bit hard on the mana. But how many 4drops do we want anyway? Some fit in 6 or more, which I think is a bit steep, although this allows for Elspeth, Jace plus more. I feel that 4 is about right, 5 at the max. One of these, maybe more, should be Thrun. This because he blanks UW Stoneforge almost singlehandedly, and similar spotremoval/counter-strategies. Jace lends to the dimension of having reactive options, which I feel is very necessary for Bant. This is a very fair deck, but one that can end games fast, and can deliver toolbox solutions for different broken strategies. Jace feels like a much stronger, and impacting 4drop post-clique/knight, than Elspeth - at least in the difficult matchups, where the opponent is preparing for brokenness.
I feel I could say more, but I think the point comes across.

Stoneforge: In this archetype, we don't need Batterskull - it seems most of you agree on this. What do we need? Swords of Some-Protection are quite nice, but the abilities are mostly icing on the cake. What we need the most is Jitte, because of the endless utility - killing opposing utility creatures, gaining life , and racing. Now I really do like Stoneforge, and would like a package of Jitte, SoLaS, SoFaI with 2-3 Stoneforge, but the space is real tight, and mostly I just want Jitte. I used to play GW Maverick with 3 Jitte main, no Stoneforge, and it was fantastic. We shouldn't forget that Stoneforge adds 2 mana to Jitte, only one to the Swords, and is a discount on Batterskull. Because of this math, it seems that he is not a perfect fit for Bant Aggro. I propose 2 Jitte main, and my decklist is currently the following:

3 Jace TMS
1 Thrun

3 Knight
3 Clique
1 Ooze
1 Pridemage

4 Brainstorm
4 STP
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
3 Snapcaster
2 Jitte

4 Noble
3 Zenith

22 land, 1 Dryad Arbor, 1 Bojuka Bog, 1 Island, 1 Forest, 4 Misty, 4 Windswept, 4 Tropical, 3 Tundra, 1 Savannah, 1 Karakas, 1 Wasteland.

SB:
1 Thrun
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Teeg
2 Path
2 EE (Mother of Runes, Elves, Empty/Bridge tokens etc.)
1 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical
4 Force of Will

I have purposely tweaked the main to be reasonably setup against Maverick, random aggro, UW Stoneforge and other fair strategies. I feel that these are the most plentiful, plus between Clique, Daze and Pierce main and the different bullets, broken strategies don't really scare me that much game 1.

-Tue

[Misplayer]

On Elspeth: This card is excellent against Maverick and other "fair" decks (Junk, Zoo, the mirror, etc). It can turn a bad board position into a favorable one, and/or break ground stalls where your huge Knight can't get past Mother of Runes or something similar.

On Batterskull: With RUG still seeing heavy play, I think Batterskull is warranted. You're entire creature base except for Knight/Thrun dies to Lightning Bolt or Grim Lavamancer. Against RUG, you often don't have the mana/time/creatures to play, equip and swing with Jitte. If you can protect Stoneforge for a turn, Batterskull will come down and almost always win you game 1.

@Valarne: I think that you're approach is more of an all-in aggro approach, in which case Stoneforge and Elspeth are not as good, but aren't you just a slower and less disruptive version of a RUG-style deck at this point? To me, Bant Aggro, despite the name, is a mid-range strategy because it's built around a mid-range card: Knight of the Reliquary. That's just my 2 cents.

[Chikenbok]

@Valarne: I think that you're approach is more of an all-in aggro approach, in which case Stoneforge and Elspeth are not as good, but aren't you just a slower and less disruptive version of a RUG-style deck at this point? To me, Bant Aggro, despite the name, is a mid-range strategy because it's built around a mid-range card: Knight of the Reliquary. That's just my 2 cents.

This. Bant aggro tries to set up early, and stabilize by the mid game. We are not trying to bash in 15 dmg by turn 3 but rather, stabilize and protect our assets. I personally play a much more controlling build than most and love the ability of the deck to do whatever I need it to - when I need it to. The deck is certainly not as aggressive as zoo or RUG but trades this speed for the ability to protect itself and drop an 8/8 knight.

[KobeBryan]

This. Bant aggro tries to set up early, and stabilize by the mid game. We are not trying to bash in 15 dmg by turn 3 but rather, stabilize and protect our assets. I personally play a much more controlling build than most and love the ability of the deck to do whatever I need it to - when I need it to. The deck is certainly not as aggressive as zoo or RUG but trades this speed for the ability to protect itself and drop an 8/8 knight.

If thats the case, we should really drop the brainstorms, ponders for scyrb ranger and mother of runes.

[Bignasty197]

Chikenbok-- What does your current list look like? I have disliked Daze myself and have opted for Spell Pierce main.

[Valarne]

Which parts of my suggestions imply all-in aggro?

Elspeth is in general a more aggro-type planeswalker than Jace. It is true that Batterskull can potentially be more of a defensive equipment than for instance the second Jitte, but in both cases its really a matter of the gamestate, and both can be used aggressively and defensively.

It is quite true that Daze is a card that is chosen with the early and midgame in mind, but besides that, I don't see the difference between all-in aggro and midrange setup that you are referring to.

The main reason why I think this archetype has a foot up compared to other midrange aggro-control strategies, and why the deck is good in general:

- Turn 1 acceleration - so powerful to be a step ahead, even on the draw. And one of the reasons why Daze is super good. Because of the access to Noble Hierarch turn 1, this archetype is one of my favorites to pilot against combo; after turn 1 we can usually deploy our beatdown with mana open, and because Nobles and Cliques deliver such stellar beats, we can afford to side out heavy stuff like Knights. Compare this to UW Stoneforge, who have to tap out turn 2 to apply any pressure, or simply wait, neither of which are good options.

- The curve that acceleration facilitates: Turn 2 Clique especially, but a turn 2 Knight is sweet as well.

- The toolboxes that Zenith and Knight gives us.

I don't consider Bant to even have the option of being all-in aggro, but against true control (if that even exists these days), we have to play part of aggressor. Against other Midrange we need a plan, and I think that this should be a matter of getting ahead in cards through Jace and Snapcaster and/or through a trump like Thrun, preferably equipped with something.

And a PS question: Is Force of Will necessary in the maindeck and why? My short answer is no, because the deck can be built with non-carddisadvantage options against broken decks, and most matchups tend to revolve around cardadvantage and grinding.

[Chikenbok]

If thats the case, we should really drop the brainstorms, ponders for scyrb ranger and mother of runes.

Brainstorm is the only reason I run Blue - well, that and jace and counterspells and snapcasters. . Well, that's not true.. But its about 90%

Scryb ranger is an awesome card, I don't however use the GSZ toolkit so can't run it as a single. Regarding mom, I'd rather have that first turn to either play a hierarch or to play a fetch and say go keep up mana for pierce.

Ground stalls that would have once been ended with Mom can now be dealt with using Elspeth or snapcasters and swords.

[Chikenbok]

Chikenbok-- What does your current list look like? I have disliked Daze myself and have opted for Spell Pierce main.

List for reference - still not 100% on everything:

Critters:
4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Knight of the Reliquary
3 x Snapcaster Mage
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 x Stonforge Mystic (these are the slots I'm considering changing - along with the equips)
2 x Vendilion Clique

Other Stuff:
1 x Jitte
1 x Batterskull
1 x Elspeth
2 x Jace

Spells:
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
3 x Spell Pierce
3 x Spell Snare
3 x Swords to Plowshares

21 Land -

[Bzka]

List for reference - still not 100% on everything:

Critters:
4 x Noble Hierarch
4 x Knight of the Reliquary
3 x Snapcaster Mage
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 x Stonforge Mystic (these are the slots I'm considering changing - along with the equips)
2 x Vendilion Clique

Other Stuff:
1 x Jitte
1 x Batterskull
1 x Elspeth
2 x Jace

Spells:
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
3 x Spell Pierce
3 x Spell Snare
3 x Swords to Plowshares

21 Land -

2 SFM in connection with Batterskull seem to low, even when you have Spell Pierce to protect them, so i would rather cut these 3 cards and add a second Jitte, another land and max the numbers of StoP's.

[Chikenbok]

2 SFM in connection with Batterskull seem to low, even when you have Spell Pierce to protect them, so i would rather cut these 3 cards and add a second Jitte, another land and max the numbers of StoP's.

I was thinking more just of cutting 2 SFM and 2 Equips and throwing in 2 Green Suns and 2 targets. Probably 1 ooze and 1 pridemage.

I have not had problems with only running 3 swords with 3 snapcasters main. Against decks that I really need them, I probably don't have to deal with spell snare.

[KobeBryan]

Deck
Creatures
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 vendilion clique
3 stoneforge mystic

artifact (2)
1 sword of fire and ice
1 umezawa's jitte

Instants (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 mana leaks


Planeswalker (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands(21)
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 plains
1 island

Sorcery (2)
3 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard
4 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
1 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
2 krosan grip
1 qasali pridemage
1 life from the loam
1 sword of light and shadow

Changed it up a bit. I added mana leak and took 2 ponders out and 1 knight out. What do you guys think?

[Artlee]

I think Knight is the best creature in the deck. I would rather cut either 1 Clique or Saint, depending on the meta. Clique is great for combo while Saint shines versus removal heavy decks like Punishing Maverick, while still putting the opponent on a fast clock.

I know you have Green Sun to tutor for the knight, but I would rather use the sun on utility creatures like Ooze and Teeg and simply draw the knight or have her in the opener.

[Chikenbok]

Avatar, I like the list a lot - do you ever have problems with only 18 blue spells and force of will?

I've finally made the cut to Stoneforge Mystic. I am so sick of that card. I never want to see it again. And I'm surprisingly impressed with how well the deck runs when you don't have clunky equipment running around and getting in the way of real spells.

[KobeBryan]

Avatar, I like the list a lot - do you ever have problems with only 18 blue spells and force of will?

I've finally made the cut to Stoneforge Mystic. I am so sick of that card. I never want to see it again. And I'm surprisingly impressed with how well the deck runs when you don't have clunky equipment running around and getting in the way of real spells.

Yea...thats the main reason why I run a 2 sfm and 2 equipment package. (i changed the list from above to include the 4th knight)

[jeanbathez]

I'am also still thinking about the right bant list for me, atm i prefer a list similar to Chikenbok :

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Spell Snare
1 Elspeth
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will

I still want to add some spell snares and the 4 GSZ, in many matchups i like the 1 turn Nobel or GSZ for Arbor its such an strong opening. I'am also testing geist, i liked him in my stonebalde SB.

Another question about SB against Maverick, when i played Bant Soneblade i often SB my Force of Will out, there aren't a lot of cards i wanted a 2 for 1 in this matchup, if i think they don't have Choke of coure, but i'am still not sure if thats a good plan what do you guys think ?

About the SB, i'am not sure -atm it contains a Enlightend Tutor Package and some Snappy food. I'am still not sure..?

[Misplayer]

jeanbathez - how has 3 Snapcaster and 12 realistically flashback-able spells worked for you? I only play ~10 in my list so I'm only running 1 Snapcaster main.

On Stoneforge - I think it's important to curve out with it when you don't hit t1 Noble Hierarch. With your primary threats being Knight, Clique and Geist, you often do nothing except play defense for the first two turns, which can be pretty bad in Legacy. Against decks that can Waste/Stifle/Daze you, casting your important 3/4 drops is difficult without Hierarch until you're close to within Lightning Bolt range. For those reasons, I'm still playing 3 SFM.

[jeanbathez]

Misplayer : thank you for your answer...

@ Snapcaster : You hit the point, thats why i'am posting here, atm i wanted to play snapcaster (because its so good) but until know i am not satisfied with him in my lists..

@Stoneforge : Thats one of my problems, if i don't hit Noble or GSZ for Arbor, it didn't curve out very well.

So atm i can't find a list that works out with Knight, Stoneforge, GSZ, Snapcaster...perhaps i want too much...
Perhaps snapcaster isn't that good in this lists as a 3 of...
So thats the point why i'am posting i want to hear other opinions about their bant builds - how would your list look likev f.e. ?

[from Cairo]

So atm i can't find a list that works out with Knight, Stoneforge, GSZ, Snapcaster...

Yea I think you hit a pretty relevant point for building a balanced list for this archetype there's sort of 2 directions you can take the deck, and ideally a middle ground, but satisfying the demands of each type becomes tough.

To elaborate - I think there's sort of the Maverick, splash Blue approach. More of a tap out agro approach with Brainstorm for mid-late game reach and Force of Will to not be cold to combo. The build that tends to focus on Noble, GSZ Arbor, into Knight or Vendilion Clique (Geist to a lesser degree) with light permission in the form of Force, maybe 2-4 other counter slots. The GSZ package is usually ~7 sorcery speed cards - 3-4 GSZ, 1-2 QPM, 1-2 Scavenging Ooze, and 1 Arbor. I think Daze is more defensible in this set up since it is requiring the player to tap out frequently for the first 2-4 turns.

Alternatively the deck can take a more controlling approach. Dropping GSZ and co. for more counterspells and Stoneforge Mystics. This approach has less acceleration, so it needs some lower cc cards to stay interactive in the first few turns, usually Spell Pierce or Spell Snare. The 1cc counters also work well in conjunction with SFM, since one can lead Noble, into SFM with counter back up. The deck can then continue to leave mana up turn 3 threatening more permission and eot 'vial' equipment. I think this is the list where Mana Leak can fit the archetype better. Also I think this list can make better use of Snapcaster Mage generally having more targets, though still probably capping at 2-of.

Maybe the theoretical best list could take the best elements of these two builds, but it seems like it would have a less focused game plan in doing so. It's also totally possible that I'm way off base with this analysis, but when I was trying to tune a list I found myself looking at two fairly opposing packages.

[Koby]

I think the middle ground is Rynkiewicz's No-FoW list from the Grand Prix. It has a balance of Knights, GSZ, SFM, and a few select counters, including Daze.

I found it hard to balance out all the good :g::w: threats with the necessity to maintain a high :u: count for Force of Will. Spell Pierce, Snare, and Daze are generally sufficient against non-combo decks. The sideboard is where those are mitigated.

I would highly consider testing out Rynkiewic'z list as a starting point, then expanding from there. Innistrad block didn't add significantly to the archetype, and only Batterskull is the consideration for updates. Scavenging Ooze is highly recommended however.

[KobeBryan]

I think with a gsz package, the deck MUST have 1 ooze, 1 pridemage, and 1 scryb ranger.

I also believe that if you are onily going 3 gsz, you really cannot run the dryad arbor. Turn 1 arbor is not really the best play to make with the limited amount of tutors.

[TheShaun]

How good is Geist when you aren't running equipment? Seems like he's going to get blocked and killed by something almost every time unless he's suited up with a sword or jitte.

[Misplayer]

How good is Geist when you aren't running equipment? Seems like he's going to get blocked and killed by something almost every time unless he's suited up with a sword or jitte.

Some common Bant cards that interact nicely with Geist:
1. Maze of Ith
2. Karakas
3. Noble Hierarch
4. Various equipment, as mentioned

Even if the Angel connects once and you have to trade your Geist, it's not terrible. If it connects twice, that's pretty damn good. Three times and you've almost assuredly won the game. Factor in Hexproof and the fact that often your opponent will have to decide if they want to block a 2/2 Geist or a 8/8 Knight, and it's a total bomb in any matchup where you're on the aggro plan. Against UW Stoneblade it reads "Force of Will this or lose". It trumps an opposing Jace and is a headache for Elspeth.

At least that's been my experience.

[Setherial]

I think with a gsz package, the deck MUST have 1 ooze, 1 pridemage, and 1 scryb ranger.

I also believe that if you are onily going 3 gsz, you really cannot run the dryad arbor. Turn 1 arbor is not really the best play to make with the limited amount of tutors.

It is when it enables the turn 2 Clique/knight or turn 3 Jace you're already holding. Dryad is also damn good with fetchland against edicts or to just block when it matters.

Why is scryb ranger important? I mean, it's ok and all but not a must have IMO.

[jeanbathez]

Test version : no stoneforge, no snapcaster...

1 Dryad Arbor
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch

3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Savannah
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath

So, for the Moment i cutted the Snapcasters and Stoneforges and tried this version,
against NicFit, UR Delver.

Like allready discussed : if i hit the turn 1 noble,gsz, it was perfect, even daze was good then, but when not this deck felt so slow......

I think my next try is adding stoneforge back to curve out better and cut the gsz, but they were so good :-(...

By the way Geist was very good and getting two knights on the battlefield was quite good....i even chumpblocked to oblivion with karakas....

[Koby]

Round and round we go....

//NAME: Bant Stoneblade by Andrew Morrow, 2nd place SCG:Cinci
// Equipment
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

// Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ponder

// Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas

//Sideboard
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Submerge
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

Not sure if I like the SFM package for Bant yet. I'm brewing up a non-SFM, non-GSZ build that could very well be classified as New Horizons if I ran Stifle. I still like the SFM package in the SB to answer aggro, but just 2-3 Jitte might also solve solve that problem. I do like the Snapcaster approach right now too.

[nedleeds]

It is when it enables the turn 2 Clique/knight or turn 3 Jace you're already holding. Dryad is also damn good with fetchland against edicts or to just block when it matters.

Why is scryb ranger important? I mean, it's ok and all but not a must have IMO.

I think if you are running a deck with 4 x KotR Scryb Ranger is awfully good. He's also a good weapon holder, really the only true evasion creature you can GSZ for (barring some howitzer like Mystic Enforcer).

[TheShaun]

Some common Bant cards that interact nicely with Geist:
1. Maze of Ith
2. Karakas
3. Noble Hierarch
4. Various equipment, as mentioned

Even if the Angel connects once and you have to trade your Geist, it's not terrible. If it connects twice, that's pretty damn good. Three times and you've almost assuredly won the game. Factor in Hexproof and the fact that often your opponent will have to decide if they want to block a 2/2 Geist or a 8/8 Knight, and it's a total bomb in any matchup where you're on the aggro plan. Against UW Stoneblade it reads "Force of Will this or lose". It trumps an opposing Jace and is a headache for Elspeth.

At least that's been my experience.

Ok thanks, makes sense. I'm in the preliminary stages of building my own version of this deck, it's been a bit too long since I've played a deck with blue cards in it. Seems like it would be well positioned right now. Some things I'm still trying to figure out seem like the same questions that keep getting tossed around here. GSZ or no? Snapcaster or no? FoW or no? Also, am I right in getting the impression that Goyf is just out-classed by the other creatures in this deck? I guess he also doesn't fall into the ideal curve of turn 1 mana accel turn 2 play a 3-drop. But is turn 2 Goyf with Spell Pierce/Snare backup really all that weak?

[Koby]

Goyf doesn't grow very big when most of the removal Exiles creatures. He's typically 3/4 nowadays, and sometimes grows to 4/5 - and almost all the time outclassed by a Batterskull. He's also just a vanilla beater, and that's a limiting point for him.

[KobeBryan]

Goyf doesn't grow very big when most of the removal Exiles creatures. He's typically 3/4 nowadays, and sometimes grows to 4/5 - and almost all the time outclassed by a Batterskull. He's also just a vanilla beater, and that's a limiting point for him.

Rukcus. Would you play a FOWless bant or a FOW bant list for the GP

[Vandalize]

I've been brewing a FoWless Bant for a while, and This is the list I'm using.

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
1 Forest

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Qasali Pridemage

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Natural Order
SB: 1 Progenitus

A few questions:
1) Should I keep Force of Will in sideboard? I feel like this deck is too soft on combo without FoWs.

2) 5 pieces of Grave-Hate is too much? I'd like to fit some number of Path to Exile.

3) Natural Order package is mainly due to my heavy Maverick and Stoneblade in my metagame. Still, what's the correct plan in sideboarding in NO Package in these matchups?

4) I'd also like to fit some Qasali Pridemage in main deck. What should I remove? Maybe 1 Clique and 1 Stoneforge?

[Chikenbok]

Cut dazes MD (after testing them and pierces) and decided that mana leaks are the tits. Mind you, I play a much heavier control version than most but leak is almost always 100% of the time a hard counter. I also got my 1 ponder back. I do love my 1 ponder.

Land is the only thing I'm working on getting down tight right now. I've been really unhappy with Maze of Ith.

[Koby]

Cut dazes MD (after testing them and pierces) and decided that mana leaks are the tits. Mind you, I play a much heavier control version than most but leak is almost always 100% of the time a hard counter. I also got my 1 ponder back. I do love my 1 ponder.

Land is the only thing I'm working on getting down tight right now. I've been really unhappy with Maze of Ith.

I think Daze is still really good for this deck. And I do agree with Mana Leak, I was just talking to my friend about how a counter-suite for Bant would look like and it included 2 Mana Leak as a hard-counter. 3-4 Pierce is correct, but i'm still not locked in on #s of Daze.

This is for a Snapcaster Mage build that doesn't run GSZ or SFM.

[Chikenbok]

I think Daze is still really good for this deck. And I do agree with Mana Leak, I was just talking to my friend about how a counter-suite for Bant would look like and it included 2 Mana Leak as a hard-counter. 3-4 Pierce is correct, but i'm still not locked in on #s of Daze.

This is for a Snapcaster Mage build that doesn't run GSZ or SFM.

I suppose its a good thing that I run snapcaster mages and no GSZ or SFM ;)

Edit with List:

4 x Knight
4 x Hierarch
3 x Snapcaster
2 x V. Clique
2 x Geist
2 x Ooze

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
3 x Spell Snare
4 x Swords
2 x Mana Leak
2 x Ponder

1 x Elspeth
2 x Jace

21 Land

[KobeBryan]

Deck
Creatures (18)
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 vendilion clique
3 snapcaster mage

Instants (15)
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 spell snare

Planeswalker (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands(22)
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 flooded strand
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 plains

Sorcery (4)
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 ponder

Sideboard
4 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
1 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
1 Bojuka Bog
2 krosan grip
1 qasali pridemage

maybe a rhox warmonk

I have 2 free sideboard slots now with this deck. any suggestions?

The snapcasters gave me LOTS of removal against mav decks. Its now a much better matchup. Stoneblade I have not tested against. Any suggestions?

[Setherial]

I suppose its a good thing that I run snapcaster mages and no GSZ or SFM ;)

Edit with List:

4 x Knight
4 x Hierarch
3 x Snapcaster
2 x V. Clique
2 x Geist
2 x Ooze

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
3 x Spell Snare
4 x Swords
2 x Mana Leak
2 x Ponder

1 x Elspeth
2 x Jace

21 Land

I like your build

Isn't 21 land cutting it a bit close for such a control heavy version? I played Stoneblade so I'm using that as my point of reference. Getting stuck on 3 land killed me. Maybe in your version it's not that big of a deal with hierarchs added to the mana sources and the build being less dependent on sticking a planeswalker.

What do you run in side against artifacts, Krosan Grip?

[Setherial]

I think if you are running a deck with 4 x KotR Scryb Ranger is awfully good. He's also a good weapon holder, really the only true evasion creature you can GSZ for (barring some howitzer like Mystic Enforcer).

I still think he's just cute. Not that I would not like to include him but I just can't dedicate a slot to him at this time unless I cut maze of ith in favor of Scryb and then I think Maze is better.
I don't run Stoneforge Mystic, if I was then I agree he has a lot to offer.

[Chikenbok]

I like your build

Isn't 21 land cutting it a bit close for such a control heavy version? I played Stoneblade so I'm using that as my point of reference. Getting stuck on 3 land killed me. Maybe in your version it's not that big of a deal with hierarchs added to the mana sources and the build being less dependent on sticking a planeswalker.

What do you run in side against artifacts, Krosan Grip?

Sitting on 3 land comes up every once and a while (perhaps for a turn or so)and, while its very rare to get 'stuck' on three land the times that I do I at least have a hierarch out to support a snapcaster mage and a mana leak. Perhaps one day I'll run up to 22 lands but right now 21 feels right.


And yeah, in the side I run grips - I don't really have that much problem with them resolving though (artifacts that is), usually people are more worried about dealing with an 8/8 knight and a ven clique smashing their faces off then flashing in a batterskull.

[KobeBryan]

How do you guys feel about geist without the sword package?

is he worth running at all?

[Koby]

True story, I ran GSZ/SFM-less Bant aggro with 3 Jaces and 21 lands. I felt mana flooded, but I did get 11 lands out of 19 cards in one game, so it might be a fluke. (ended up winning it too, cuz Snapcaster Mage + removal = tits)

[KobeBryan]

True story, I ran GSZ/SFM-less Bant aggro with 3 Jaces and 21 lands. I felt mana flooded, but I did get 11 lands out of 19 cards in one game, so it might be a fluke. (ended up winning it too, cuz Snapcaster Mage + removal = tits)

you got a decklist rukcus?

[Koby]

4 x Knight
4 x Hierarch
3 x Snapcaster
3 x V. Clique
2 x Ooze

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
3 x Spell Snare
4 x Swords
2 x Spell Pierce
2 x Ponder

1 x Elspeth
3 x Jace

3 Tropical
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
8 Fetchland
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Wasteland
2(1?) Horizon Canopy

I might have been playing 20 lands, I don't recall and can't pull up my decklist at work.
Sideboard:
3 Surgical
3 Pathe to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Jitte
1 Crucible
1 Wasteland
2 Krosan Grip

[KobeBryan]

4 x Knight
4 x Hierarch
3 x Snapcaster
3 x V. Clique
2 x Ooze

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
3 x Spell Snare
4 x Swords
2 x Spell Pierce
2 x Ponder

1 x Elspeth
3 x Jace

3 Tropical
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
8 Fetchland
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Wasteland
2(1?) Horizon Canopy

I might have been playing 20 lands, I don't recall and can't pull up my decklist at work.
Sideboard:
3 Surgical
3 Pathe to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Jitte
1 Crucible
1 Wasteland
2 Krosan Grip

you don't like geist rukcus?

[Koby]

I don't own any, they might be better than Clique right now.

[KobeBryan]

I don't own any, they might be better than Clique right now.

get outta here...the guy that wins cards at every tournament don't have the cards.

[Kuma]

I've been running no Stoneforge Mystic, no Force of Will, Natural Order Bant recently:

4x Tropical Island
2x Savannah
1x Tundra
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Forest
1x Plains
1x Island
1x Gaea's Cradle

1x Dryad Arbor

1x Maze of Ith

4x Noble Hierarch
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Tarmogoyf

3x Vendilion Clique
3x Snapcaster Mage

4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus

4x Brainstorm
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Spell Pierce
3x Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard:

4x Rhox War Monk
1x Dispel
4x Path to Exile
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Krosan Grip
1x Tower of the Magistrate

I don't think Stoneforge Mystic is where we want to be right now. With the resurgence of RUG, and with Spell Snare being played more than ever, Stoneforge Mystic seems poor.

Here are some commonly played cards that screw up Stoneforge Mystic:

Force of Will
Daze
Spell Snare
Mana Leak
Counterspell
Vendilion Clique
Lightning Bolt
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Chain Lightning
Punishing Fire
Grim Lavamancer
Stifle
Fire // Ice
Dismember
Ancient Grudge
Krosan Grip
Pithing Needle
Thoughtseize
Duress
Lightning Helix
Aven Mindcensor
Tower of the Magistrate
Maze of Ith

Here is the same list without the cards that don't screw up Natural Order

Force of Will
Daze
Mana Leak
Counterspell
Vendilion Clique
Thoughtseize
Duress
Aven Mindcensor
(Spell Pierce)
(Grafdigger's Cage)

Yes, creature removal can hurt Natural Order if you can keep the player off green creatures entirely, but the deck runs so many that this isn't likely to happen. Natural Order is also a much smaller mana investment. 2GG plus the green creature you already cast, whereas Stoneforge Mystic costs 1W + either 1W, 2, 3, or 5 to get anything but a 1/2 out of it. If Natural Order resolves, there's almost nothing that can be done about it. There are myriad answers to a resolved Stoneforge Mystic.

Force of Will is only good against combo decks, which are becoming increasingly rare. Besides, we can rely on other players to play Force of Will to keep combo out of the format. Spell Pierce protects Natural Order and then some without the card disadvantage and the need for a high blue count.

Gaea's Cradle has been nothing short of amazing. It helps you dump your hand on the table faster than your opponent, and it gives you tons of mana for playing around all the Spell Pierces, Mana Leaks, and Dazes that people are running.

Even though I'm running Knight of the Reliquary, I don't think Wasteland belongs in a deck with Natural Order. Not only is the deck color greedy, you don't usually want to set yourself back on mana when you're trying to resolve a 2GG Sorcery. Maybe it would be good as a one-of for dealing with problem lands.

[Einherjer]

I am playing a very similar list to this.
I play - 3 Snapcaster - 1 Spell Pierce - 1 Qasali
+ 1 GSZ +3 Tarmogoyf +1 Scavenging Ooze

Its alot more aggro than your build, and sometimes Goyf+Knight already is enough to win games. I play the 4th Spell Pierce aside with 2 Flusterstorm in the Sideboard to combat combo. But I dont think that Snapcaster has potential here as we play just a few instants. Id suggest going more aggro. What do you think?

Greetings

[KobeBryan]

I am playing a very similar list to this.
I play - 3 Snapcaster - 1 Spell Pierce - 1 Qasali
+ 1 GSZ +3 Tarmogoyf +1 Scavenging Ooze

Its alot more aggro than your build, and sometimes Goyf+Knight already is enough to win games. I play the 4th Spell Pierce aside with 2 Flusterstorm in the Sideboard to combat combo. But I dont think that Snapcaster has potential here as we play just a few instants. Id suggest going more aggro. What do you think?

Greetings

I've playtested with 3 snapcasters yesterday, with 4 brainstorms, 4 swords to plowshares, 3 spell pierce, these are enough to run the 3 snapcasters.

Then in the sideboard, you got 3 path to exiles and 4 spell pierces. This is plenty of targets.

[Kuma]

I am playing a very similar list to this.
I play - 3 Snapcaster - 1 Spell Pierce - 1 Qasali
+ 1 GSZ +3 Tarmogoyf +1 Scavenging Ooze

Its alot more aggro than your build, and sometimes Goyf+Knight already is enough to win games. I play the 4th Spell Pierce aside with 2 Flusterstorm in the Sideboard to combat combo. But I dont think that Snapcaster has potential here as we play just a few instants. Id suggest going more aggro. What do you think?

Greetings

I haven't liked Tarmogoyf in this list. I was originally running two and I'm thinking I probably want to cut the last one. I don't think he helps us go aggro that much, because early on he's usually a 1/2 or 2/3 in this list. Late game, Tarmogoyf is usually 4/5, but late game I'd almost always rather have a Knight of the Reliquary if I'm casting Green Sun's Zenith. If I were running Ponder, Daze, and Spell Snare, he'd probably be worth it.

I'm running 19 Instants and Sorceries in the main deck, and seven more in the board. That seems like plenty for Snapcaster Mage.

Also, Flashbacking Natural Order is insane.

[KobeBryan]

I'm seriously thinking about taking out the lone maze of ith.

put a dryad arbor in there and scryb ranger in place of maze and another card.

The ranger and arbor will provide nearly as much protection as maze and you get to protect your duals from wastelands.

what do you think guys.

[iScare]

I'm seriously thinking about taking out the lone maze of ith.

put a dryad arbor in there and scryb ranger in place of maze and another card.

The ranger and arbor will provide nearly as much protection as maze and you get to protect your duals from wastelands.

what do you think guys.

I think you should. Scryb is awesome in protecting your forest duals and arbor. You should know. You've mistakenly tried to wasteland my Savannah and Plow my MORs when i had a scryb ranger out.

[Chikenbok]

4 x Knight
4 x Hierarch
3 x Snapcaster
3 x V. Clique
2 x Ooze

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
3 x Spell Snare
4 x Swords
2 x Spell Pierce
2 x Ponder

1 x Elspeth
3 x Jace

3 Tropical
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
8 Fetchland
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Wasteland
2(1?) Horizon Canopy

I might have been playing 20 lands, I don't recall and can't pull up my decklist at work.
Sideboard:
3 Surgical
3 Pathe to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
2 Jitte
1 Crucible
1 Wasteland
2 Krosan Grip

I like the way you think. You should try cutting the pierces MD for some leaks, that was the last change I made (our lists are almost identical). I'm not saying that either is better, but if you're playing the deck similarly to me, then leak might work out.

Also, you should jam at least 1 geist in there, its won me games I have no excuse even being involved in.

Edit: Haven't tried the horizon canopies but i'm interested, never caused you any problems I take it? Are they worth testing?

[KobeBryan]

chicken....you don't like the GSZ builds?

[Chikenbok]

chicken....you don't like the GSZ builds?

Don't like GSZ and don't like SFM. After playing the deck for a while now I've decided that the deck doesn't like toolboxes of any kind, they're clunky and get in the way.. It might just be my playstyle and well, results to speak for themselves so we can only see what might happen but as of now, I prefer not dealing with equipment of green monster kits.

[KobeBryan]

Don't like GSZ and don't like SFM. After playing the deck for a while now I've decided that the deck doesn't like toolboxes of any kind, they're clunky and get in the way.. It might just be my playstyle and well, results to speak for themselves so we can only see what might happen but as of now, I prefer not dealing with equipment of green monster kits.

then how are you dealing with blades without qasali in the md

[Chikenbok]

then how are you dealing with blades without qasali in the md

Step 1. Try and counter the spell (or snapcaster and counter the spell, AGAIN!)
Step 2. If I can't counter the spell I run 4 Swords and 3 Snapcasters, things rarely stay on the board for long if they do resolve. Blade decks usually don't have more threats than I have ways of dealing with threats.
Step 3. Board into k-grip.

If all else fails, I can make my knight really big and turn him sideways.

[Setherial]

O no, seems like people here start to realize snapcaster is good in bant... damn next thing you know Bant will be a DTB again and people will pack hate against us :)

I love playing SFMless Bant, you clique the BUG player and see x dead spell snares in his hand, game two you clique him again and see x dead spell snares in his hand, again :) You ask after winning, why didn't you side them out and they say, you play bant. :)

GSZ is what makes Bant strong IMO, few decks can keep up with consistent turn 1 acceleration and that is what GSZ gives us. Second I've never ever regreted drawing into GSZ or holding one or more copies in my hand. They are extra knights and knights still win most of our games. They are everything wee need all the time.

About running Natural Order, isn't Elspeth just strictly better. Not much stops a flying knight and it probably hits just as hard as progenitus if not better.
I can imagine cases where Natural Order is better but they are few. Natural Order also isn't all that against decks with tons of removal like Nic Fit.

[Kuma]

About running Natural Order, isn't Elspeth just strictly better. Not much stops a flying knight and it probably hits just as hard as progenitus if not better. I can imagine cases where Natural Order is better but they are few.

Elspeth is situationally better, but not strictly better. Lots of things stop flying Knights, like Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Maverick using Mother of Runes to give a chump-blocker protection, Maze of Ith, Submerge, Dismember, Go for the Throat...

The reason to run Natural Order is that all the things that stop Knight or flying Knight don't work. Phantasmal Image, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Wrath of God are the cards that see any Legacy play that can stop a resolved Natural Order. All are fringe cards seeing little play.


Natural Order also isn't all that against decks with tons of removal like Nic Fit.

Neither is flying Knight of the Reliquary. Bant is generally awful against heavy removal black decks. True, Elspeth is better against Nic Fit. Call me when that deck has a real tournament presence.

[Misplayer]

I've been running hot with Bant (Stoneforge, no GSZ) lately, going 4-1 and 4-0-1 (ID) at local events and then 4-0-2 (1 ID) into the top 8 at a 45+ person SCG IQ on Sunday. However, in the Top 8 I was paired with Punishing Maverick and it was brutal. Both games were super grindy and I certainly misplayed my chance away at winning either, but even with tight play it would have been very very tough. Mother of Runes gave me such a headache, and Mom + Scryb Ranger was even worse.

G1 I made bad FoW decisions and ran out gas quickly. G2 I went -3 FoW, -3 Daze (possibly wrong on the play), -1 Jace, -1 Goyf, +2 Path, +2 K Grip, +2 Surgical, +2 Crypt. He opened with Mom, Scryb Ranger, Mom and essentially locked me out despite having almost no other action for the entire game. I had an early Hierarch, SFM, Geist with Jitte but never got counters - I think if I SFM up a SoFaF instead I win the game with angel beats, as it's unlikely that he finds 5 non-green toughness to trade. I proceeded to make questionable combat decisions, ended up KoR-ing myself out of mana and scoop despite him having no pressure at all.

So basically I punted the match at every opportunity, but even in subsequent testing it is such a grind. I've found my best plan to be save removal for only Mother of Runes and Knight as few other creatures really matter, and otherwise win with superior card selection through Brainstorm/Jace. Any advice on this matchup? Maybe board into Natural Order? My current SB looks like this:

2 Path to Exile
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Will
1 Phantasmal Image
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip

Finks are swapped for a second Jitte and second Elspeth depending on the meta I'm expecting.

[Koby]

The only relevant creatures in Maverick for the creature-features are Mother of Runes, Knight of the Reliquary, and possibly Scavenging Ooze (shuts down both Knight and Snapcaster Mage). Outside of that, the creatures are just dumb beaters that are teeny-tiny.

[Hanni]

What about Jenara, Asure of War as a GSZ target? It's not as large as a Knight of the Reliquary, but it has flying. I used to run her in my Vial Bant deck and was pretty happy almost everytime I saw her.

Oh, and I also wanted to mention that Grafdigger's Cage stops NO/Prog, since I didn't see that in your list of problem cards, Kuma.

I'm curious how often NO/Prog is win-more, and in what matchups does it actually improve, and in what matchups do you board it out? I'm almost thinking it would be better as a sideboard plan for certain decks, than as a maindeck plan.

I am on the GSZ bandwagon though, not because it allows you to run a toolbox, but because it increases overall consistency. More consistency is always a good thing. The fact that you really want mana ramp turn 1, and 4 GSZ/4 Hierarch makes that happen, is a really strong selling point IMO.

I'm curious how Snapcaster Mage would work out in a Bant shell, though. I mean, you really don't want to be running Path to Exile, which clashes with the Wasteland/Daze plan, but just 4 Swords to Plowshares doesn't really seem like enough to abuse SCM.

[Koby]

I am on the GSZ bandwagon though, not because it allows you to run a toolbox, but because it increases overall consistency. More consistency is always a good thing. The fact that you really want mana ramp turn 1, and 4 GSZ/4 Hierarch makes that happen, is a really strong selling point IMO.

I'm curious how Snapcaster Mage would work out in a Bant shell, though. I mean, you really don't want to be running Path to Exile, which clashes with the Wasteland/Daze plan, but just 4 Swords to Plowshares doesn't really seem like enough to abuse SCM.

In my testing (Chikenbok has run similar lists), there are not enough slots in the deck to run more than two of the following:

1) Force of Will
2) Stoneforge Mystic
3) Green Sun Zenith + goodies
4) Snapcaster Mage

Effectively, you run out of slots. I've tested GSZ + Planeswalkers, which worked out well. I'm testing Snapcaster Mage + heavier blue splash for Force of Will, which works too. SFM + GSZ is bordering on GW/u Maverick, and you run out of enough blue cards to support Force of Will, or even Daze.

I like the Snapcaster Mage package personally for this color combination, because it gives you so much utility out of just 4 Swords. I support this increased Jace count and little to no reliance on GSZ.

[Hanni]

I'm not a big fan of Force of Will in the heavy aggro versions of Bant Aggro, but it seems like it would necessary in the NO/Prog versions.

I'm also not sure one way or the other regarding SFM. I like the card advantage aspect, but the deck doesn't really need Batterskull when it has Knight of the Reliquary, and there's very little tribal aggro these days to require Umezawa's Jitte. I'm actually curious if Snapcaster Mage wouldn't be the better 'card advantage 2cc creature'.

I do think the deck stands to benefit greatly from Mother of Runes, though. Not only does she protect the creature base, she can also push a big Knight through chump blockers.

I really like what both Elspeth and Jace have to offer the deck, but I'm not sure which I'd rather run. On one end, Elspeth makes flying Knights. On the other end, Jace draws alot of cards. Not really sure there. Maybe a Superfriends 2/2 split?

[KobeBryan]

I'm not a big fan of Force of Will in the heavy aggro versions of Bant Aggro, but it seems like it would necessary in the NO/Prog versions.

I'm also not sure one way or the other regarding SFM. I like the card advantage aspect, but the deck doesn't really need Batterskull when it has Knight of the Reliquary, and there's very little tribal aggro these days to require Umezawa's Jitte. I'm actually curious if Snapcaster Mage wouldn't be the better 'card advantage 2cc creature'.

I do think the deck stands to benefit greatly from Mother of Runes, though. Not only does she protect the creature base, she can also push a big Knight through chump blockers.

I really like what both Elspeth and Jace have to offer the deck, but I'm not sure which I'd rather run. On one end, Elspeth makes flying Knights. On the other end, Jace draws alot of cards. Not really sure there. Maybe a Superfriends 2/2 split?

if you go in with bant, there are really no bad matchups except for that maverick matchup.

But if you switch your deck to the mav build, you will have problems with combo.

[Hanni]

Foolin around with MWS, this is a list I came up with. The only problem is, I think I ended up with GWu Maverick instead of Bant Aggro, although it's still Bant Aggro to me:

G/W/u Bant Aggro

// Lands (22)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Tundra
1 [UNH] Forest
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures (20)
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [ARB] Jenara, Asura of War
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells (18)
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [CFX] Progenitus
SB: 4 [VI] Natural Order
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

Basically, I just want to be a Bant Aggro deck that beats down with quality creatures. I see alot of people these days only running 1 Goyf, but he's still the most efficient p/t creature in the game, and is still a big dumb beater, which is exactly what I want. Mother of Runes helps protect my guys, as well as help push damage through.

I ended up going with Elspeth instead of Jace. I don't need the blue spell count for Force of Will, and I think Elspeth being more aggro fits better into the gameplan of the deck. Whether that means flying Knights, or some 1/1's if my board is cleared. I'm not sure how often I'd actually use the ultimate.

Anyone have any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong and what I'm doing right?

[Bignasty197]

In a SFM build, I like 2 Jace and 1 Elspeth. On that note, I think the SFM version is the best way to play Bant right now because I feel like it is the most well-rounded against the field. There is pretty much a core to the deck with room for 5-6 customizable/metagame slots.

[KobeBryan]

Foolin around with MWS, this is a list I came up with. The only problem is, I think I ended up with GWu Maverick instead of Bant Aggro, although it's still Bant Aggro to me:

G/W/u Bant Aggro

// Lands (22)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Tundra
1 [UNH] Forest
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures (20)
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [ARB] Jenara, Asura of War
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells (18)
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [CFX] Progenitus
SB: 4 [VI] Natural Order
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

Basically, I just want to be a Bant Aggro deck that beats down with quality creatures. I see alot of people these days only running 1 Goyf, but he's still the most efficient p/t creature in the game, and is still a big dumb beater, which is exactly what I want. Mother of Runes helps protect my guys, as well as help push damage through.

I ended up going with Elspeth instead of Jace. I don't need the blue spell count for Force of Will, and I think Elspeth being more aggro fits better into the gameplan of the deck. Whether that mean flying Knights, or some 1/1's if my board is cleared. I'm not sure how often I'd actually use the ultimate.

Anyone have any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong and what I'm doing right?

if you go GSZ with dryad arbor and MOMs, you really, really should go 2 scryb rangers.

[luckme10]

Foolin around with MWS, this is a list I came up with. The only problem is, I think I ended up with GWu Maverick instead of Bant Aggro, although it's still Bant Aggro to me:

G/W/u Bant Aggro

// Lands (22)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Tropical Island
1 [R] Tundra
1 [UNH] Forest
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures (20)
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [ARB] Jenara, Asura of War
1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk

// Spells (18)
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 1 [CFX] Progenitus
SB: 4 [VI] Natural Order
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [LG] Karakas
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog

Basically, I just want to be a Bant Aggro deck that beats down with quality creatures. I see alot of people these days only running 1 Goyf, but he's still the most efficient p/t creature in the game, and is still a big dumb beater, which is exactly what I want. Mother of Runes helps protect my guys, as well as help push damage through.

I ended up going with Elspeth instead of Jace. I don't need the blue spell count for Force of Will, and I think Elspeth being more aggro fits better into the gameplan of the deck. Whether that means flying Knights, or some 1/1's if my board is cleared. I'm not sure how often I'd actually use the ultimate.

Anyone have any suggestions on what I'm doing wrong and what I'm doing right?

Hanni, given that I see 10 blue spells, the mana base seems rather vulnerable to wasteland. It's really not difficult to imagine two wastelands being used to cut you off the color.

After looking at some of the creature choices, I agree that Rhox War Monk is better than Batterskull vs red decks. The two turn faster cast beats having to sit with Batterskull in your hand. Also, while the added protection with Mother of Runes is nice, I don't recall really having a particularly negative matchup vs them. For the more obvious point, you are running Elspeth and Mother of Runes. Both cards are highly synergistic with Mystic as well. Situations like these create the perfect opportunity to revert back to the Goyf vs Mystic debate in Bant, especially in lieu of this more red spash friendly meta. Both are good here. And well, I actually still a goyf playset simply because it gives me more deck space than the equipment package =p

As for the big picture, I tend to agree with the above poster. Although Bant isn't necessarily great against combo decks, by forming a more aggressive midgame, what matchups are you trying to improve upon? Delver? Maverick? And is the removal of blue worth the opportunity cost of having poorer matchups of the prior?

[Hanni]

Well, the goal was to build a Bant Aggro deck. I was developing a deck called Vial Bant for a while, back when Vial Aggro was the answer to the metagame. There were some design flaws I was trying to work out at the time, and then Vial Aggro began to fall out of favor.

While the Vial approach is still valid, I think the GSZ plan has some big advantages. While the deck lacks the massive early to midgame acceleration from Vial, and the uncounterable creature drops, GSZ gives the deck versatility without ever being dead. While a turn 1 Dryad doesn't tap for Black Lotus every turn, it still gives the deck the extra accel it needs early. The deck is essentially running 8 mana dorks, without actually running 8 mana dorks. While Vial would be a dead draw in the midgame, GSZ can be whatever creature I need.

So in coming back to Bant Aggro, I still want a deck that plays like Vial Bant. That means less of a focus on tempo and control with tons of countermagic, and more of a focus on creature beats. That's essentially what I've tried to do with the decklist I posted.

As far as what matchups are improved, I definitely think playing a resilient midrange aggro deck has its benefits. With the red infestation at the moment, it could be wise for me to cut some of the toolbox to fit more Rhox War Monks in the sideboards. This deck is quite flexible in that it only requires slight changes to create dramatic effects.

As far as combo is concerned, I feel better going into game 1 with 4 Spell Pierce vs no countermagic at all (standard Maverick), and I feel comfortable with 4 Spell Pierce, 4 Flusterstorm, and 4 GSZ/1 Gaddock Teeg. The deck has a decent clock when it's goldfishing. Besides, unless your Bryant Cook, this metagame seems to be pretty hostile to combo, what with all the countermagic and quick beats right now.

There's also different classifications of combo. You have storm combo; whether that be ANT, TES, or Spiral Tide. You have graveyard dependant combo like Reanimator and Dredge. And then there's aggressive combo like Burn, Sligh, and to a lesser extent, U/R Delver. I believe I have enough tools between maindeck and sideboard to address these matchups, for the most part.

Just to hammer the point though: I was just trying to build a Bant Aggro deck. A deck that focuses on the aggro side, taking advantage of some of the best midrange creatures in the game, while still getting to play with the best spell in the game (Brainstorm). That's basically it. I mean, I definitely want a competitive deck, not just some casual jank, of course. The few games I playtested on MWS with my list were positive, but I haven't had the chance to rigorously test it, which was why I asked for advice.

[lavafrogg]

Props for the monastery Hanni!

I love how you have the creatures that most decks want to search for as GSZ targets....they just never get to. Isn't what makes bant aggro tick right now the access to snapcaster mage and brainstorm, instead of GSZ? I see that as the strongest reason to splash blue at the current moment in time. After snapcaster and brainstorm, how much green/which green creatures to pick decide how "aggro" your bant deck is.

[Koby]

Without a reliable way to pump Goyf to be larger than 2/3 I would highly consider alternative options. This includes more pride ages which help to both beat the mid range mirrors and help to exalt whicver attacked you have to huge size. You don't need 8 fetch lands and should balance out the duals to fetch ratio to be closer to 1:1 due to Knights. Rwm is a good trump to burn right now, and definitely faster than batterskull. What is the deck's answer to a turn one Delver? That's a pretty common opening for several decks and their tempo cards can run some heavy disruption to cheap answers in the form of Daze and Pierce. Goyfs don't answer this very effectively.

[jeanbathez]

I've been running hot with Bant (Stoneforge, no GSZ) lately, going 4-1 and 4-0-1 (ID) at local events and then 4-0-2 (1 ID) into the top 8 at a 45+ person SCG IQ on Sunday. However, in the Top 8 I was paired with Punishing Maverick and it was brutal. Both games were super grindy and I certainly misplayed my chance away at winning either, but even with tight play it would have been very very tough. Mother of Runes gave me such a headache, and Mom + Scryb Ranger was even worse.

G1 I made bad FoW decisions and ran out gas quickly. G2 I went -3 FoW, -3 Daze (possibly wrong on the play), -1 Jace, -1 Goyf, +2 Path, +2 K Grip, +2 Surgical, +2 Crypt. He opened with Mom, Scryb Ranger, Mom and essentially locked me out despite having almost no other action for the entire game. I had an early Hierarch, SFM, Geist with Jitte but never got counters - I think if I SFM up a SoFaF instead I win the game with angel beats, as it's unlikely that he finds 5 non-green toughness to trade. I proceeded to make questionable combat decisions, ended up KoR-ing myself out of mana and scoop despite him having no pressure at all.

So basically I punted the match at every opportunity, but even in subsequent testing it is such a grind. I've found my best plan to be save removal for only Mother of Runes and Knight as few other creatures really matter, and otherwise win with superior card selection through Brainstorm/Jace. Any advice on this matchup?

@Misplayer : Its good to read that other people go hot with Bant ;-)
From your post i read that you play stoneforge and Geist and no GSZ, did you play snappy, i think not ?
Perhaps its easier if you post or pm me your decklist ? Here in germany i play a lot against maverick...

[Kuma]

Any advice on this matchup?

Natural Order is the best card for beating Maverick that we can support. Their only answer to it is Aven Mindcensor, or possibly Enlightened Tutor for Phyrexian Metamorph post-board. All their Mother of Runes/Punishing Fire/Equipment/Scryb Ranger tricks/Maze of Ith can't deal with Progenitus.

I bring in Path to Exile as well. Many Maverick lists are skimping on basics, and you really need to kill a turn one Mother of Runes unless you have a fast Natural Order. Hell, most every creature in their deck is a "must kill" which makes Snapcaster Mage and Path to Exile strong options.

I've replaced the Tarmogoyf in my list with a Terravore, and I've loved it. Trample is so good against Mother of Runes/Sword of X and Y. Terravore is also a trump against opposing Knights of the Reliquary.


Oh, and I also wanted to mention that Grafdigger's Cage stops NO/Prog, since I didn't see that in your list of problem cards, Kuma.

Thanks. I forgot about that one. I'll go back and add it to the list.


I'm curious how often NO/Prog is win-more, and in what matchups does it actually improve, and in what matchups do you board it out? I'm almost thinking it would be better as a sideboard plan for certain decks, than as a maindeck plan.

There have been games where I've won because of Natural Order. I've been able to win aggro races I otherwise wouldn't have. I've also beaten control because I was able to resolve Natural Order during a "shields down" moment and blank all his removal/countermagic/Jaces. I've beaten Maverick because all the deck's combat tricks can't touch Progenitus. I've raced Enchantress because I was swinging for 10 instead of 2.

Natural Order improves the Maverick matchup, at least. It's also a catch-all for the random decks that show up at Legacy tournaments.

I usually board it out against decks that run more than eight total pieces of land destruction and non-Force of Will countermagic that can hit Natural Order. It's not strong in the RUG Delver matchup. Depending on the list, it can be pretty boss against UW Stoneblade, but it can also be terrible. It's iffy against Reanimator and Dredge, but both are already very strong matchups.

I'll sometimes leave it in against the aforementioned decks if I didn't see Spell Pierce game one, and they didn't see Natural Order. I figure they likely won't bring in any Spell Pierces to deal with it unless they know it's coming. I've actually had people board out Spell Pierce against me only to lose to Natural Order game two.


I'm curious how Snapcaster Mage would work out in a Bant shell, though. I mean, you really don't want to be running Path to Exile, which clashes with the Wasteland/Daze plan, but just 4 Swords to Plowshares doesn't really seem like enough to abuse SCM.

I don't like the Wasteland/Daze plan in Bant. You don't want to be sacrificing and bouncing lands when you're running lots of three and four mana spells. I prefer to win by playing more and better creatures while simultaneously protecting my guys (Spell Pierce) and removing anything that can stand up to them (Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile). Snapcaster Mage is excellent in this kind of plan.

I've also won a game because I flashbacked Natural Order after a Death and Taxes player cast Tariff.


I'm not a big fan of Force of Will in the heavy aggro versions of Bant Aggro, but it seems like it would necessary in the NO/Prog versions.

I haven't found it necessary. I cut Force of Will from my lists, because I only ever needed it when I was behind, and casting it made me fall even farther behind. It's also hard to support it unless you want to hurt card quality to get a sufficient blue count. I've only missed the card against Storm, and I don't expect to see lots of Storm in the winners brackets because everyone else is running Force of Will.

I pump my fist in the air every time my opponent Forces some creature of mine pitching Jace or Snapcaster Mage. I feel like I gained so much value there. Even if they Force my Natural Order, they usually traded two very strong cards for one strong card and a Noble Hierarch/Dryad Arbor.


I'm actually curious if Snapcaster Mage wouldn't be the better 'card advantage 2cc creature'.

I think it is. It's harder to mess up a Snapcaster Mage than a Stoneforge Mystic.


I do think the deck stands to benefit greatly from Mother of Runes, though. Not only does she protect the creature base, she can also push a big Knight through chump blockers.

I wish I could fit her in. Natural Order does a lot of what she does, though.


Without a reliable way to pump Goyf to be larger than 2/3, I would highly consider alternative options.

QFT.


You don't need 8 fetch lands and should balance out the duals to fetch ratio to be closer to 1:1 due to Knights.

Against RUG, it's very important to have two fetchlands in the graveyard when you cast Knight so they can't Lightning Bolt him. I run 9 fetchlands for that reason and also because I run Terravore.

[Koby]

Against RUG, it's very important to have two fetchlands in the graveyard when you cast Knight so they can't Lightning Bolt him. I run 9 fetchlands for that reason and also because I run Terravore.

There's also a balance between getting to 3 mana. RUG runs Wasteland and Stifle (altho a trend is starting to cut these); making it riskier to run more fetch, low amount of basics, and supplementary low amount of duals. Hanni's list runs 4 duals, 1 Basic, and 8 fetchlands. That's not going to cut it against RUG.

I would recommend 2-3 basics, then equalize the duals to fetches, possibly cutting back on the Horizon Canopy's, or cut the Monastary / Maze out completely. Maze in particular, doesn't help you win the game actively; it helps you win more with Knight or helps to stall when you're behind. Whenever I draw it, I wish it was a land that tapped for mana.

[KobeBryan]

Yea. I took maze of ith out in this deck. Its good, but with 3 snapcasters, 4 plows, and 3 paths in the board, creatures aren't going to be a problem.

[Kuma]

There's also a balance between getting to 3 mana. RUG runs Wasteland and Stifle (altho a trend is starting to cut these); making it riskier to run more fetch, low amount of basics, and supplementary low amount of duals. Hanni's list runs 4 duals, 1 Basic, and 8 fetchlands. That's not going to cut it against RUG.

Yeah, I agree. I thought you were speaking more generally.

[Hanni]

My manabase was a port over from Vial Bant. I didn't really put a lot of work into it, because I had already put a lot of work into it when I was designing that deck. I failed to consider that without Vial, I should have re-evaluated the manabase too. I agree that this deck should use Wasteland as a utility spell rather than a focal point. I'll probably cut 2 Wastelands for 2 more Duals.

[Malakai]

I feel this thread needs drastically more Tryon Predator.

[kingsey]

Anyone else running Natural Order?

Its been a house lately for me. With all the mav in my area the batterskull on the ground gets stalled out, natural order ends games quickly.

Also went back to running 1 rhox war monk in my deck. He's been a boss as always.:cool:

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Mind posting a list?

I played a non GSZ/SFM list at a 40 ppl tournament last week, it felt pretty good although some numbers might be off.

6/43 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7699&iddeck=56013)

I think cutting down on Wastelands and maybe adusting some other numbers might be the way to go, as the 4 games i lost (Match 1 Canadian, Top 8 Canadian) were mostly due to not being able to set up more than 2-3 Lands and therefore losing to Daze/Dismember.

[Chikenbok]

Mind posting a list?

I played a non GSZ/SFM list at a 40 ppl tournament last week, it felt pretty good although some numbers might be off.

6/43 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7699&iddeck=56013)

I think cutting down on Wastelands and maybe adusting some other numbers might be the way to go, as the 4 games i lost (Match 1 Canadian, Top 8 Canadian) were mostly due to not being able to set up more than 2-3 Lands and therefore losing to Daze/Dismember.

I run the exact same list -1 Jace + 1 Snare. The extra snare ,ight tighten up the little bit of the can thresh matchup - which I haven't had that much of a problem with unless they start with triple waste stifle. But I've yet to find a deck that can beat that.

[xfxf]

I don't want to offend anyone but is it just me or does anyone else also think that most Bant aggro lists looks like Jambalaya?

The first 20 is the same (KoTR, Hierarch, FoW, Brainstorm, Swords) and the rest seem like a random mixture of creatures, spells and lands (lands don't seem random obv).

[KobeBryan]

I don't want to offend anyone but is it just me or does anyone else also think that most Bant aggro lists looks like Jambalaya?

The first 20 is the same (KoTR, Hierarch, FoW, Brainstorm, Swords) and the rest seem like a random mixture of creatures, spells and lands (lands don't seem random obv).

There are many versions of bant. the first 5 cards you mentioned, 4 of which are always played.

FOW is not always.

you can choose two of the following to complete the list (rukcus suggested)
1. force of will
2. sfm
3. GSZ
4. snapcaster

[BlackStarDeceiver]

That's maybe because Hierarch, Swords, Brainstorm and Knight are some of the strongest cards in the format and all of them have quite some synergie with each of the other cards completing the list.

I'd definately play a deck like this on a GP but not without major hate for Maverick, as that MU seems pretty hard between Mindscensor and Mother+Scryb.

Geist feels very strong, especially alongside Nobles and Jace.

T1 Noble T2 Geist into Jace is hard to follow when you are on the play.

[Chikenbok]

I don't want to offend anyone but is it just me or does anyone else also think that most Bant aggro lists looks like Jambalaya?

The first 20 is the same (KoTR, Hierarch, FoW, Brainstorm, Swords) and the rest seem like a random mixture of creatures, spells and lands (lands don't seem random obv).

Uhm... Isn't this the same as saying "Any deck uses the best cards available to it, and then adapts the rest of the deck to fit the players playstyle, metagame, and card availability"

Every deck has its 'core' followed by its 'flex spots'

What exactly is different about bant... As already said, we have access to the best mana producers, the best creatures, the strongest spells, and the best removal in the format. I guess its crazy that we'd want to build a deck around that core..

[Koby]

What I find interesting about this archetype is how vastly different the deck can be built with the flexibility of the slots. It also makes it hard to get consensus on which is the best build. The last 15 cards in the deck can be so dramatically different - I don't even know which way I'd prefer. Some days, it's GSZ + SFM; other days it's SCM + FoW or Planeswalkers.

Too many options!

[The Duck!!]

What I find interesting about this archetype is how vastly different the deck can be built with the flexibility of the slots. It also makes it hard to get consensus on which is the best build. The last 15 cards in the deck can be so dramatically different - I don't even know which way I'd prefer. Some days, it's GSZ + SFM; other days it's SCM + FoW or Planeswalkers.

Too many options!

True to that. It's if you run gsz toolbox + FoW, you can't run sfm. If you run Sfm + FoW + Walkers, you can't run gsz toolbox. The reason for this is that the deck is too congested already and if running gsz + FoW + sfm + walkers,the deck would be inconsistent.

[kingsey]

True to that. It's if you run gsz toolbox + FoW, you can't run sfm. If you run Sfm + FoW + Walkers, you can't run gsz toolbox. The reason for this is that the deck is too congested already and if running gsz + FoW + sfm + walkers,the deck would be inconsistent.

What would be the best lists for a each set up?

[Chikenbok]

What would be the best lists for a each set up?

I think its important to stay away from asking questions like 'what is the best lists' for each set up and rather look at 'the best list for an individual player in a given circumstance'.

The only core differences in the three lists would be that

SFM list runs 4x SFM + 3 Equip + Jace/Elspeth (7 slots just on SFM)

GSZ list runs utility creatures (scryb, E. Wit, Qasali, Dryad Arbor, etc) but SFM makes that list WAY too clunky, perhaps you can run 2 Jace in it. (usually 7-10 slot for GSZ package). This list has the fewest counterspells and can arguably work without force of will.

Then there is the list that both Rukcus and I are playing that cuts SFM and GSZ and advocate for the use of more spells and snapcaster mages and a full set of walkers.

Other than that, you're generally playing the same spells in the same shell. Its about playstyle and what you expect you face off against.

I think snapcaster mage is probably too good not to play in a blue deck running more than 10 spells so, I've chosen the last option. However I will not say, by any means, that it is the best.

[xfxf]

Pardon my ignorance but what are the Walkers? I can only think of zombies :laugh:

[Jak]

Pardon my ignorance but what are the Walkers? I can only think of zombies :laugh:

Planeswalkers...

[KobeBryan]

Is there anyway to even out the matchup against maverick?

[Chikenbok]

Is there anyway to even out the matchup against maverick?

Snapcaster mage + 3 STP in the board works for me. I also run 3 snare MD plus K-Grip in the board.

Post board I haven't had too many problems with the deck, Preboard its all about keeping MoR of the board. Play tight, and keep them on their heals. Without playing things like SFM you get to blank MD cards like QPM and friends.

Knight and mom are the only real issues pre-board and post-board I haven't really had too much trouble - resolve a jace and win.

[KobeBryan]

Snapcaster mage + 3 STP in the board works for me. I also run 3 snare MD plus K-Grip in the board.

Post board I haven't had too many problems with the deck, Preboard its all about keeping MoR of the board. Play tight, and keep them on their heals. Without playing things like SFM you get to blank MD cards like QPM and friends.

Knight and mom are the only real issues pre-board and post-board I haven't really had too much trouble - resolve a jace and win.

What style bant are you playing?

I'm doing the FOW + snapcaster build...whats yours

[Vandalize]

Is there anyway to even out the matchup against maverick?

Snapcaster and Jace are usually big problems for Maverick. Spell Pierce on GSZ helps, as well.

[KobeBryan]

Snapcaster and Jace are usually big problems for Maverick. Spell Pierce on GSZ helps, as well.

This is my sideboard

3x krosan grip
3x path to exile
2x umezawa's jitte
4x spell pierce
1x bojuka bog
3x surgical extraction

I usually board out 4x force of will, 2x spell snare, 2x mana leak, 1 karakas, for 3x krosan grip, 3 path to exile, 2 jittes, and a bojuka bog.

do you think thats a good idea?

[Koby]

Seems reasonable against Maverick. Just focus on not letting Mom become active and that should go a long way.

[kingsey]

I was having success with natural order bant, but it seems it is not talked about at all?

Hanni touched base on it a few pages back, its very good vs the mav match up.

Also with NO bant you can skill run rhox war monk/GSZ and get the upper hand vs delver and burn without needing SFM and batterskull.

[Chikenbok]

What style bant are you playing?

I'm doing the FOW + snapcaster build...whats yours

Shoot me a PM and I can send you a deck list and we can talk about strategies.

[Misplayer]

I feel like Engineered Explosives is well positioned right now coming out of the side. It's going to be a 2-for-1 against Maverick and RUG most of the time. Set to 1, you only lose your own Hierarchs which is something I'd gladly trade to answer Mom/Delver/Mongoose.

I think the nut open against Maverick is T2 Geist, T3 Elsepth swing-for-10-in-the-air.

[Kuma]

I was having success with natural order bant, but it seems it is not talked about at all?

Hanni touched base on it a few pages back, its very good vs the mav match up.

Also with NO bant you can skill run rhox war monk/GSZ and get the upper hand vs delver and burn without needing SFM and batterskull.

That's pretty much what I'm running right now. NO Bant with Rhox War Monks and GSZ. No Stoneforge Mystic. NO handles Maverick and some UW lists, Rhox War Monk helps with the RUG, UR Delver, and Burn matches. Problem is I don't think the deck is strong enough against RUG even with Rhox War Monk. Could just be my lack of experience in the matchup.


I feel like Engineered Explosives is well positioned right now coming out of the side. It's going to be a 2-for-1 against Maverick and RUG most of the time. Set to 1, you only lose your own Hierarchs which is something I'd gladly trade to answer Mom/Delver/Mongoose.

I think the nut open against Maverick is T2 Geist, T3 Elsepth swing-for-10-in-the-air.

I'm running two Engineered Explosives in my sideboard, and it's the nuts. Kills RUG's threats dead, gives you an out to Geist of Saint Traft, and lets you take out Maverick's Mothers of Runes without card disadvantage. It's even good against Dredge's zombie tokens and Empty the Warrens (does anyone still play that?).

[Tammit67]

I feel like Engineered Explosives is well positioned right now coming out of the side. It's going to be a 2-for-1 against Maverick and RUG most of the time. Set to 1, you only lose your own Hierarchs which is something I'd gladly trade to answer Mom/Delver/Mongoose.



I'd never trade my heirarchs for their 1/1 delvers.

[Koby]

I'd never trade my heirarchs for their 1/1 delvers.

What he means by this is:
Insectile Abherration has CMC = 0.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

I played the NO/Snapcaster Forceless/SFMless build Kuma posted a few pages back on Sunday to 4-3 finish. Karakas replaced 1 Tropical Island, otherwise the list was pretty close i guess.

Lost to Comboelves in round 1, no Ethersworns in the board meant game over pretty much as he played around the Spell Pierces easily.

Lost to MUD because he was able to equip Platinum Emperion with Greaves under Chalice 1. Deck pooped on me game 2, he had triple waste and i wasn't able to get up to three mana including green to blow up Chalice 1 and Trinisphere with Grips.

Lost to Canadian, one of our bad matchups anyways, played by a very good Tempo player who hasn't lost a game against Mav/Bant since September...

I think i won 2 games on the back of Progen, games that i probably would have won without --> NO is still good but might be very much meta dependent...

I'll probably go back to a GWu Mav/Bant Hybrid with Geists and SFM/Zenith, though Daze might be good in that deck.

[Kuma]

Glad you gave my list a try.

Combo Elves is an awful matchup for us. It gets better if you run Stoneforge Mystic, but it's about the only such matchup. I've added Engineered Explosives to the board. It should help.

MUD is iffy, but winnable. I've added an extra Krosan Grip to the board, and the Engineered Explosives help with Chalice of the Void. I've played this match once, and I lost because I made a stupid mistake.

Canadian Threshold is rough, and I'm really looking for ways to make it better. I've added Rhox War Monk to the maindeck, as well as an extra land. I've added Engineered Explosives to the sideboard because it's a fantastic answer to all their threats.

I won't fault you for going back to what you were playing. If there's lots of combo in your metagame, I wouldn't run my list. However, I do think my new list is better against the decks you ran into.

Here's my new list:

Lands: (23)

4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Rhox War Monk
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Terravore
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Spell Pierce

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

SB:

1 Rhox War Monk
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Path to Exile
1 Natural Order
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Krosan Grip
1 Tower of the Magistrate

[Vandalize]

I've been brewing a NO Bant list for a while, because I love playing Natural Order, and RUG Order isn't really viable nowdays.

The list:

Lands [20]
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Dryad Arbor

Creatures [15]
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Progenitus

Spells [25]
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder

Sideboard [15]
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte -> Free slot, actually.

Any comments, or advice? The list has been running smoothly. Mulligans aren't very common with 20 lands, even with 2 Dryad Arbors. And after several testing, I've found the funniest play in Legacy: GSZ for Progenitus.

[KobeBryan]

I've been brewing a NO Bant list for a while, because I love playing Natural Order, and RUG Order isn't really viable nowdays.

The list:

Lands [20]
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Dryad Arbor

Creatures [15]
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Progenitus

Spells [25]
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
2 Ponder

Sideboard [15]
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
3 Path to Exile
3 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte -> Free slot, actually.

Any comments, or advice? The list has been running smoothly. Mulligans aren't very common with 20 lands, even with 2 Dryad Arbors. And after several testing, I've found the funniest play in Legacy: GSZ for Progenitus.

you should up your spell pierce count. its much better than flusterstorm.

[Vandalize]

you should up your spell pierce count. its much better than flusterstorm.

I can't play more than 4 of those, I think.

[KobeBryan]

I can't play more than 4 of those, I think.

Didn't see it in your main deck.

how come you don't wanna run daze in the MD.

[Vandalize]

Didn't see it in your main deck.

how come you don't wanna run daze in the MD.

I don't really like Daze in a deck where I need to reach my land drops until turn 3~4. It's a really viable option to protect Natural Order, but I'm usually really tempted to use Daze actively (like RUG does). Just preventing misplays from my part.

This deck wins like 60% on Prog's back, and the other 40% on an Exalted Vedilion Clique or Rhox War Monk. Sometimes I wish I had space to play 4 Cliques, lol.

[KobeBryan]

I don't really like Daze in a deck where I need to reach my land drops until turn 3~4. It's a really viable option to protect Natural Order, but I'm usually really tempted to use Daze actively (like RUG does). Just preventing misplays from my part.

This deck wins like 60% on Prog's back, and the other 40% on an Exalted Vedilion Clique or Rhox War Monk. Sometimes I wish I had space to play 4 Cliques, lol.

since you need to race to 4 mana, might i suggest running 2 scryb rangers in the main over goyf?

manaleak is also very very useful.

[Kuma]

Any comments, or advice? The list has been running smoothly. Mulligans aren't very common with 20 lands, even with 2 Dryad Arbors. And after several testing, I've found the funniest play in Legacy: GSZ for Progenitus.

Run more lands. Since you're running two Dryad Arbors, it's more like you're running 19 lands. That isn't going to cut it against RUG, especially if they run Stifle. I'd cut a Dryad Arbor. The second one doesn't give you much value over the first, and it's a weak card.

Knight of the Reliquary >>> Tarmogoyf. You get to run awesome stuff like Gaea's Cradle (you do like the idea of Green Sun's Zenith for 11, don't you?), Tower of the Magistrate, Karakas, Bojuka Bog, and Maze of Ith. You can also get rid of garbage like Ponder.

Force of Will isn't strong in Bant. You're either pitching strong cards to it or running crap like Ponder to make it viable. We're not going to win by countering one key card. We're going to win because our threats are better than theirs. We're going to win because we have threats backed up by efficient disruption.

Cut the Umezawa's Jittes for Engineered Explosives. That card is the shit right now.


I don't really like Daze in a deck where I need to reach my land drops until turn 3~4. It's a really viable option to protect Natural Order, but I'm usually really tempted to use Daze actively (like RUG does). Just preventing misplays from my part.

Daze is good if:

You run at least four cards that disrupt your opponent's mana.

You're casting spells turns one through three that must resolve.

You're running Aether Vial.

Your curve tops out at three or less with four or less cards that cost three.

NO Bant fits none of these criteria. I disagree that it protects Natural Order well. By turns three and four, your opponent can usually play around Daze. Force of Will is the number one card used to stop Natural Order, and Daze isn't very good at stopping it.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

That's probably how i'd try it right now.

Snapcaster was fine but nothing i would not change in favour of other things.

-1 Green Fetch + 1 Forest (maybe just exchange basic Island for Basic Forest)
-2 Snapcaster Mage + 2 Tarmogoyf (the meat feels needed against Canadian)
-1 RWM + 1 Kitchen Finks (having the option to Zenith for immediate lifegain is important)
-1 Terravore + 1 Ooze (We have KotR to fight KotR, then we have Ooze to fight everything, second Ooze has won me so many games i don't want to sum them all up)

SB:

-1 Rhox War Monk + 1 Gaddock Teeg (He is on colour, and he is good)
-1 NO -1 Path - 1 KGrip + 3 Etherswon Canonist (Still the best catch all board card in our colours i feel: Elves, Enchantress and Combo don't want to see this guy ever.)


I don't know when i will be able to give that list a try on tournament, because i don't want to play around at the next one, but i feel like that list might have potential.
4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith


4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Kitchen Finks

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Spell Pierce

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

SB:

1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Path to Exile
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tower of the Magistrate

[lordofthepit]

This is my old Bant build that I had a lot of success with in a meta with a lot of control and combo, with occasional aggro. I liked the fact that it would stomp Dredge, Reanimate, Storm, Show and Tell combo, and Stoneblade, and even the "fair" matchups weren't unfavorable.



// Lands (22)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wasteland

// Creatures (15)
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage

// Spells (23)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
3 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


That being said, I've shelved this deck for now since all the blue decks have pushed the unfair decks out of the store. In the meantime, I want to work on a deck that incorporates Green Sun's Zenith and Stoneforge Mystic to beat fair decks. In other words, essentially a blue-splashed Maverick, except with the following conditions:

1) I want to be able to board into 4 Spell Pierce and 4 Force of Will postboard against combo decks, so I still want to aim for at least 10 blue cards in the main. Starting with 4 Brainstorm, 2-3 Vendilion Clique, and 1-2 Jaces.
2) Snapcaster Mage is almost always fucking terrible. I was never happy with Snapcaster unless there was a Swords to Plowshares or a Path to Exile in my graveyard, and even then, all I got was a conditional 3 mana removal spell (vulnerable to gravehate and Spell Snare) that left a useless 2/1 body since I didn't run equipment to take advantage of him. When I was getting beat down and I was holding a Snapcaster but without a Swords effect, I wanted to kill myself. He pulled his weight only when I had an early Swords to Plowshares or when I needed something to pitch to Force of Will.
3) I'd love to be able to fit in 3-4 copies of Mother of Runes.

I'm thinking I can use the likes of Rhox War Monk and Trygon Predator, maybe Geist of Saint Traft, to fill the other "blue slots". Does anyone have a starting point?

[BlackStarDeceiver]

If you want to use Force for boarding purposes, skip it. It's essentially the same as mulliganing into Leyline, as you will have to have it on your opener against the decks you need it and if you don't Flusterstorm and Spellpierce seem far superior.

I'd go for 3 Geists main, 1 or 2 Clique nad 2 Elspeth and 1 or 2 Jace alongside.

Geist + Elspeth is not fun.... for our opponents....

[jeanbathez]

Still tuning, so i thought about gettin the pieces together, i started with the list from James Rynkiewicz :

//NAME: Bant without Force

1 Dryad Arbor
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Spell Snare
3 Daze
2 Mana Leak
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath

Its not tested, i'am just brainstorming : So it has 4 GSZ, and Snapcaster and 2 Stoneforges.
Has someone else tested such a build, opinions would be great. Thank you.
I'am sure i want to play snapcaster, too good to pass...
I can't decide which build i want to play, is the best for me, the meta....
You know what i mean...

[TarmoX]

Hi all this is my first post on the source!!! :laugh:
Then what's the difference from Bant and Maverick with blue splash??? I argue that:
Bant have more counter and Fow + Mystic + Jace?
Mav Have GSZ + Mystic + Brainstorm and 4 Pierce?
What are differents MU's and style of play???

[kiwi]

In my opinion the most important difference is that bant has got brainstorm, Jace, Vendilion Clique and moreover more than 6 counters between spell snare, spell pierce, fow, mana leak and daze.

[Setherial]

T8 yesterday at Duel for Duals in Gent (Belgium). 40+ players attending.

Mainboard

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the reliquary
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft

2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Tropical island
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
3 Wasteland

Sideboard

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Umezawa's Jitte


It was a great tournament, very well orgenized, no delays, everything went very smooth. Great, easy going judge.


Round 1: 2-1 win vs Maverick

Game 1 he races me and quickly overpowers me with Elspeth, followed by Garruk Wildspeaker, gaea's cradle in Thrun and Rafiq of the Many. Thrun flies in for 18 damage the next round. Not much I could do about that.
Game 2 I'm on the play and I quickly accelerate into Natural Order for the win.
Game 3 he mulligans down to 5 and he opens with arbor. I start putting pressure on his mana sources while putting down knight and Geist. It was over quite fast.
Maverick is a nightmare matchup for me but playing Natural Order makes it winnable.

Round2: 2-0 win vs Merfolk

We shuffled our decks real good and then the judge stopped us for a deck check. We had a nice chat in the meantime, shuffled up again when we got our decks back and started playing. I think we had a little wasteland war game one and my opponent never saw a second island after that. Game 2 he was mana flood and I kept his guys in check with 2x swords to plowshares + Snapcaster into swords to plowshares.

Round3: 2-1 win vs Maverick

I knew my opponent from other tournaments and I've never been able to beat him. Game one however my deck performed really wel and I overpowered him quickly filtering my deck with early game ponder and brainstorm into really good value.
Game 2 he slaughters me on the back of 2 SFM, Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice while I'm stuck on 2 land, I scoop it up.
Game 3 a turn 3 natural order steals the game and gives me an easy win.

Round4: 2-0 win vs Reanimator

This is one of my preffered matchups and I feel very comfortable playing against the deck. Game 1 I didn't have a clue what he was playing until after turn 4. He thoughtseized me twice I think and put down 4 lands before playing any typical reanimator cards. I was totally mana flood all game long. He reanimates Empyrial Archangel, his best creature against my deck. I stableize on 1 life attacking with knight killing his angel.
He puts up a bit of a fight reanimating the angel again but I eventually kill him.
Game 2 I side in 2 pierce, 3 extraction, 1 bog. I have a very good starting 7 with extraction and Green sun's zenith that I intend to use for Ooze. I did miss a fast start but I had 3 or 4 lands in hand.
Anyway, he mulls down to 5 and opens with thoughtseize taking my extraction. My strong 7 are suddely a lot less strong but I still have the green sun and he's low on cards.
I play Green sun turn 3 and he spell pierces. He also puts needle on knight.
Things don't look that good but now he's topdecking and I get to start building up my board. A second Green sun fetches ooze and I play it safe, keeping land open and making it impossible for him to win from that point on.

Round5: intentional draw vs my friend Johan Steurs with NLT

I was happy I could draw against Johan. The matchup is slightly in my favor but he's the better player by far and it's not a matchup I favor.

Round6: intentional draw vs pox

With the higest resistance this puts me in T8 in second place.

In T8 I loose the first round versus Goblins. It's a difficult matchup with my configuration. It's winnable but I did not know what he was playing game 1 and if I had I would have mulliganed to a better starting hand against his deck. He won the toss and there was little I could do. 2-1 loss putting me 5th place.


I had a fun day and I think my deck is quite good against the current meta over here. I'm not sure cutting daze is the right call, I might go back to 3 daze and cut down on 3 drops. The sideboard is ok I think. I wish I could play some other kind of removal instead of Jitte but I really hate Path to exile against most decks and there just aren't that many alrenatives. Jitte is ok versus elves and burn, two difficult matchups that are heavily played over here. And 3 Jittes seems to work well.

[kingsey]

4 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Maze of Ith


4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Kitchen Finks

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Spell Pierce

3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

SB:

1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Path to Exile
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tower of the Magistrate

i'd cut kitchen finks, 1 ooze, 1 rwm, 1 knight, 1 forest, 1 plains to run. 4 fow to protect NO, 1 more pridemage, and another goyf.

[KobeBryan]

i'd cut kitchen finks, 1 ooze, 1 rwm, 1 knight, 1 forest, 1 plains to run. 4 fow to protect NO, 1 more pridemage, and another goyf.

Then i'd cut 1 pridemage and the goyf for

something blue because if you want to run 4 fow, you need at a minimum 16 blue cards.

you already have 2 pridemages main with 3 gsz and then you have 2 krosan grips in the side.

too much artifact removals

[kingsey]

Then i'd cut 1 pridemage and the goyf for

something blue because if you want to run 4 fow, you need at a minimum 16 blue cards.

you already have 2 pridemages main with 3 gsz and then you have 2 krosan grips in the side.

too much artifact removals

Jace?:tongue:

[KobeBryan]

Jace?:tongue:

not necessarily because the deck runs lots of green and white. and its very 4 mana cost heavy...

3 NO and 2 jace...thats a lot.

I have 3 jace and 1 elspeth and sometimes i have trouble casting it.

[KobeBryan]

Question...

Lots of people play 3 path to exiles in the side to fight maverick decks and such.

Do you guys think its a good idea to play 2 wrath of god, 1 path to exile in the side?

[Setherial]

Question...

Lots of people play 3 path to exiles in the side to fight maverick decks and such.

Do you guys think its a good idea to play 2 wrath of god, 1 path to exile in the side?

Wrath isn't all that. It's slow against goblins and elves, it can be stopped by Teeg, it doesn't get rid of planeswalkers against Maverick... Path is good against RUG Tempo and Merfolk and that's about it. You don't want it against gobbos and you don't want it against Maverick (Path turn 1 on Mother might seem like a life saver but the fact that you accelerate them will most likely kill you).

I'd rather play 2 Moat in side and revamp the list to a Clique/Snapcaster/Jace control build then to start playing wraths and paths. (well paths are still on the table for me but I don't like what they do). Explosives are probably better then path too.

[Misplayer]

Wrath isn't all that. It's slow against goblins and elves, it can be stopped by Teeg, it doesn't get rid of planeswalkers against Maverick... Path is good against RUG Tempo and Merfolk and that's about it. You don't want it against gobbos and you don't want it against Maverick (Path turn 1 on Mother might seem like a life saver but the fact that you accelerate them will most likely kill you).

If you keep Mother of Runes and Knight of the Reliquary off the table...how are you losing to Maverick? Path seems like a good option here. They're going to accelerate with Hierarch or GSZ/Arbor whenever they don't open with Mom anyway. Considering it's also good against RUG and those are two huge presences in the metagame, I think Path is worth a few sideboard spots.

[kingsey]

not necessarily because the deck runs lots of green and white. and its very 4 mana cost heavy...

3 NO and 2 jace...thats a lot.

I have 3 jace and 1 elspeth and sometimes i have trouble casting it.

Daze? I've always played 4 daze in my lists before.

[Setherial]

If you keep Mother of Runes and Knight of the Reliquary off the table...how are you losing to Maverick? Path seems like a good option here. They're going to accelerate with Hierarch or GSZ/Arbor whenever they don't open with Mom anyway. Considering it's also good against RUG and those are two huge presences in the metagame, I think Path is worth a few sideboard spots.

Path is still an option I concider each time I play, RUG being so popular is reason enough to play it. And while I agree that Mother of Runes usually is the only really big issue when facing Maverick I would not claim that it's suddenly a great matchup if you exchange their Mother with an extra land early game.
The only easy way to beat Maverick is Natural Order.

[koba]

Against zoo (or similar agro decks), RUG and merfolk, I do not care very much if they fetch a basic land (and in the case of RUG, they generally cannot).

If you expect a lot of those decks, path to exile is a great sideboard card, especially if you have snapcaster.

Against maverick, goblins and bant, path is more mediocre as you do not want to accelerate them early on (in the same vein, I regularly plow a first turn noble hierarch from bant or maverick). That being said, I do not mind siding in a few paths here as well. You may not like pathing a first turn lackey, but it is sure better than letting it attack you. The same holds true for a first turn mother (or a knight later on).

Wrath sounds like a pretty bad idea, as you play a lot of creatures yourself and it costs 4 mana, including two white (and therefore is underwhelming against RUG tempo, merfolk and the likes).

Congrats for the top 8, Setherial.

[KobeBryan]

Would you go down to 1 path to exile in board and 2 EEs?

[koba]

I like engineered explosives better than wrath of god. I don’t think it is unreasonable to play a few in the sideboard. It is not bad against RUG, especially if they play a lot of mongeese, and maverick. I am not sure if it is better than path though. In a decklist with three snapcasters, I like path more.

If you are primarily concerned about maverick, I would advice to play natural order and progenitus at sideboard. It takes 4 (or 5) slots from your sideboard, but it hoses maverick much more than anything else (I can think of anyway).

[KobeBryan]

Tested this deck with every possible angle.

There is no way to beat maverick. The only possiblility is NO package and that isn't always a guarantee as well.

[Bignasty197]

Tested this deck with every possible angle.

There is no way to beat maverick. The only possiblility is NO package and that isn't always a guarantee as well.

You should win if you resolve a NO and don't run it into a Mindcensor. What has always worked for me vs Maverick is removing the Moms and sticking a Jace asap. Daze has actually been stellar for me vs that deck also because they have a tendency to tap out often in the first few turns. Vendilion Clique was really good against them as well. It isn't an easy match up at all, but it is very winnable.

[KobeBryan]

We should make a primer on this deck.

[Chikenbok]

Tested this deck with every possible angle.

There is no way to beat maverick. The only possiblility is NO package and that isn't always a guarantee as well.

With the snap list + 3 path in the board I really don't understand the trouble everyone is having with maverick. I've lost maybe 5 out of 60 post-board games and they involve openers that have like.. 10 mother of runes.

[Chikenbok]

We should make a primer on this deck.

Also, I'd be glad to help with a primer.

[KobeBryan]

Also, I'd be glad to help with a primer.

care to start writing? i have ideas, but i dont think i have that much time to draft an entire primer.

Here is what i like to start with

What is Bant?

The Cards

Sample Decklist

Matchup Analysis

[The Duck!!]

This build is the one I used where we came to a split at the top. The opponent was using UW stoneblade. This build though is really having problems with goblins. It's really the worst match-up for NO-Bant in my experience. A stp for lackey is definitely needed. Also a bad matchup against merfolks. But a resolved KotR is a pain in the a** for them. Against RUG,knight is unanswerable once resolves. Anyway,here's the build.

Main board(60):
4 noble hierarch
3 knight of the reliquary
3 vendilion clique
2 qasali pridemage
1 tarmogoyf
1 progenitus
1 scavenging ooze

4 force of will
4 daze
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
4 natural order
3 green sun's zenith

2 jace, the mind sculptor

3 misty rainforest
2 flooded strand
2 windswept heath
3 tropical island
2 savannah
2 tundra
2 dryad arbor
1 wasteland
1 karakas
1 island
1 forest

Sideboard :
3 surgical extraction
1 bojuka bog
2 ethersworn canonist
3 spell pierce
1 gaddock teeg
1 wasteland
1 maze of ith
3 pithing needle

I'm currently testing this build,so far it's going fine. Like the snapcasters in the deck.

Main board(60):
4 noble hierarch
4 stoneforge mystic
4 knight of the reliquary
2 vendilion clique
2 snapcaster mage

4 force of will
3 spell snare
2 daze
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares

2 jace,the mind sculptor

1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine
1 umezawa's jitte

3 misty rainforest
2 flooded strand
2 windswept heath
3 tropical island
2 tundra
1 savannah
3 wasteland
2 horizon canopy
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 island
1 forest

Sideboard:
2 flusterstorm
2 spell pierce
3 surgical extraction
3 path to exile
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
1 thrun, the last troll
2 pithing needle

[Koby]

Have we explored the full potential of Lotus Cobra in this archtype using four mana spells and fetchlands? Something along these lines:

4 hierarch
4 kotr
4 gsz
4 lotus cobra
2 pridemage
2 scavenging ooze

2 jace TMS
2 Elspeth
2 Garruk primal hunter

4 brainstorm
4 stp
2 Jitte

9 fetchlands
4 trop
2 savannah
1 tundra
1 dryad arbor
2 wasteland
2 horizon canopy
1 forest
1 island
1 plains

[lordofthepit]

Have we explored the full potential of Lotus Cobra in this archtype using four mana spells and fetchlands? Something along these lines:

4 hierarch
4 kotr
4 gsz
4 lotus cobra
2 pridemage
2 scavenging ooze

2 jace TMS
2 Elspeth
2 Garruk primal hunter

4 brainstorm
4 stp
2 Jitte

9 fetchlands
4 trop
2 savannah
1 tundra
1 dryad arbor
2 wasteland
2 horizon canopy
1 forest
1 island
1 plains

What does Lotus Cobra accomplish in this deck? As far as I can tell, you're still able to ramp into a turn 3 planeswalker at best, which you could accomplish previously; granted, it's now more robust against land destruction and taxing effects, but it seems kind of underwhelming to me.

You're trading the ability to blow out combo (Vendilion Clique/Snapcaster), aggro (Stoneforge/Snapcaster, at least the tribal forms), and control (Clique/Geist) for a card that's decent against all of them, but never has a dominating board presence. More importantly, it's a terrible late game topdeck, and if you have a hand with too many planeswalkers but not enough acceleration, you're in a really bad position.

[Chikenbok]

It might be interesting to work on a bant p.walker control style of the deck but I'm uncertain Lotus cobra is necessary - replacing all the green utility with counter magic and relying almost solely on KoTr/Snapcaster and walkers might be a fun build to toy around with.

[MadMaximus]

That is exactly what I am trying to do right now.
Imo, that is a viable approach to the deck and it fits more to my playstyle than other Bant versions, which I wouldn't play, coming from the Stoneblade corner.
Already tested nearly the exact build at a local tourney, where I went 3-3 due to a bit of both, bad luck and inexperience with my deck...

I will post my list here as a starting point of the discussion:

4 Force Of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Ponder
4 Sword To Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword Of Feast And Famine

2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Vendilion Clique

2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Maze Of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Savannah

Sideboard:

3 Spell Pierce
3 Path To Exile
2 Meddling Mage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawas Jitte
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog

The main target was to combine the strengths of Stoneblade and Bant in one deck.
Consequently I tried to keep in most of the good cards from the Stoneblade deck and swapped mainly a few counterspells and removal for the hierarchs and knights.
The singleton ponder is a necessity, imo, because you're going to have quite a few clunky hands with those planeswalkers and "many" 3-drops (was even thinking about adding a second one).
My build is similar to the one, winning the GP Amsterdam, but I am not running daze, instead I do play with spell snares and spell pierce, which has good synergies with snapcaster.
Only 3 planeswalkers is, what worries me a bit, I definitely want to include a third jace, but the elspeth is too bad-ass to take her out.

So, what are you thinking in terms of matchups and so on?
The goal for my local meta was to make the tempo and the maverick matchup better by including the knight and hierarchs and I feel it could be right.

[Vandalize]

That is exactly what I am trying to do right now.
Imo, that is a viable approach to the deck and it fits more to my playstyle than other Bant versions, which I wouldn't play, coming from the Stoneblade corner.
Already tested nearly the exact build at a local tourney, where I went 3-3 due to a bit of both, bad luck and inexperience with my deck...

I will post my list here as a starting point of the discussion:

4 Force Of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Ponder
4 Sword To Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword Of Feast And Famine

2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight Of The Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Vendilion Clique

2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Maze Of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Savannah

Sideboard:

3 Spell Pierce
3 Path To Exile
2 Meddling Mage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawas Jitte
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog

The main target was to combine the strengths of Stoneblade and Bant in one deck.
Consequently I tried to keep in most of the good cards from the Stoneblade deck and swapped mainly a few counterspells and removal for the hierarchs and knights.
The singleton ponder is a necessity, imo, because you're going to have quite a few clunky hands with those planeswalkers and "many" 3-drops (was even thinking about adding a second one).
My build is similar to the one, winning the GP Amsterdam, but I am not running daze, instead I do play with spell snares and spell pierce, which has good synergies with snapcaster.
Only 3 planeswalkers is, what worries me a bit, I definitely want to include a third jace, but the elspeth is too bad-ass to take her out.

So, what are you thinking in terms of matchups and so on?
The goal for my local meta was to make the tempo and the maverick matchup better by including the knight and hierarchs and I feel it could be right.

Dredge can be rough playing only 2 Snapcasters. I'd say that they're favored 65%-35%. As for Maverick matchup, they have a ton of threats in their deck. I'd argue for a transformational sideboard (aka NO Progenitus in sideboard), that would make it much better.

As for all the other matchups, the deck seems pretty fine. Bant is a strong deck in any metagame.

PS: Be careful not to run into a deadly Price of Progress from Burn/UR Delver. 3 color decks are really vulnerable.

[MadMaximus]

Yeah, that's certainly true.
The dredge matchup is rough, but the 2 snapcasters are mainly for the late game, where swords are in the graveyard, for the tribal-like matchups and providing card advantage.

For the dredge matchup, as well as thresholdesque matchups I use the bog and would suggest including one or two additional crypts in the sideboard, but there is not much room for that.

For the maverick matchup I have the pathes in the sideboard, but I'm a bit worried if that's enough, your point is legitimate.

The overall problem with the approach is, that you have so many possible inclusions.

What would you think about daze in such a list?

[lordofthepit]

Dredge can be rough playing only 2 Snapcasters. I'd say that they're favored 65%-35%. As for Maverick matchup, they have a ton of threats in their deck. I'd argue for a transformational sideboard (aka NO Progenitus in sideboard), that would make it much better.

As for all the other matchups, the deck seems pretty fine. Bant is a strong deck in any metagame.

PS: Be careful not to run into a deadly Price of Progress from Burn/UR Delver. 3 color decks are really vulnerable.

I don't play much Dredge, but I have played against Dredge many times, and I believe Bant (with GSZ) has one of the best Dredge matches in the format.

Not only do you have GSZ, Ooze, Swords, and the usual countermagic suite in the maindeck, but you also have Knight into Bog in game 2, Paths, plus whatever additional grave hate you might have coming from the board, in addition to effects like Engineered Explosives.

[Jacemindbreak]

Playtested with a FOW, Spell snare, and mana leak combo. was not doing good in the game. The FOW were really useless and i didn't really counter anything too important. It was more of a bad topdeck. Same with spell snares and mana leak.

I had 3 surgical extractions maindeck and just didn't draw any to use against dredge.

THis is the deck I'm going to try. Please critique.

Creatures
1x scryb ranger
4x noble heirarch
4x knights of the reliquary
4x mother of runes
3x snapcaster mage
2x scavenging ooze
2x qasali pridemage
2x geist of saint traft
1x gaddock teeg

instnats
4x swords to plowshares
4x brainstorm

sorcery
3x green sun zenith

artifact
2x umezawa's jitte

planeswalker
1x elspeth
2x jace the mindsculptor

lands
4x misty rainforest
3x tropical island
2x tundra
2x savannah
3x windswept heaths
1x plains
1x forest
3x wastelands
1x karakas
1x flooded strand

sideboard
4x spell pierce
2x enlightented tutor
1x circle protection red
1x serenity
1x engineered explosives
1x tormod's crypt
2x path to exile
1x bojuka bog
1x rhox war monk

[The Duck!!]

I don't play much Dredge, but I have played against Dredge many times, and I believe Bant (with GSZ) has one of the best Dredge matches in the format.

Not only do you have GSZ, Ooze, Swords, and the usual countermagic suite in the maindeck, but you also have Knight into Bog in game 2, Paths, plus whatever additional grave hate you might have coming from the board, in addition to effects like Engineered Explosives.

How about having GSZ on the board? 2 spell pierce 2 flusterstorm 3 surgical extraction 1 bojuka bog 4 green zun's zenith 1 scavening ooze 2 path to exile?

[useL]

How about having GSZ on the board? 2 spell pierce 2 flusterstorm 3 surgical extraction 1 bojuka bog 4 green zun's zenith 1 scavening ooze 2 path to exile?


You play 4 zenith in your board?

[KobeBryan]

What do you guys think of this sideboard?

No more FOW package in the main. Going with the MOM package with GSZ

3x tormod's crypt
1x spell pierce
1x flusterstorm
3x ethersworn cannonist
2x path to exile
2x krosan grip
1x elspeth
1x bojuka bog
1x rhox war monk

I have 3 spell pierces in main as the only countersuit. 3 gsz in MD, 1 elsepth in main, 3 snapcaster mage in main, 2 jace in main, 2 jittes in main

[The Duck!!]

You play 4 zenith in your board?

I'm planning on trying it since it would be unexpected by a lot people off the board. IMO though,gsz+scm+fow package is a strong combo.

[koba]

I'm planning on trying it since it would be unexpected by a lot people off the board. IMO though,gsz+scm+fow package is a strong combo.

I would not play zenith as a sideboard card. It is pretty good against almost every deck (I play 4 main and rarely sideboard them out), without being all that strong against any particular archetype. To me that sounds like a card that should be either in the main or not at all.

Sure, it is unexpected (unless they would think you just did not draw zenith game one), but so what? Also, you can very well play the scm, fow, gsz combination main without jumping through hoops, no problem there.

As a total aside, I am glad they renamed this deck 'bant' instead of the pretty inapproriate 'bant aggro'. This deck is as aggro-control as they come by.

[KobeBryan]

I'm planning on trying it since it would be unexpected by a lot people off the board. IMO though,gsz+scm+fow package is a strong combo.

I can't imagine how you go FOW, SCM, and GSZ build. theres not enough space to include all of it.

if you want FOW, you need 18 blue cards. SCM, you need instants, and GSZ, you need green creatures.

Thats way too tough.

[Kuma]

Question: How are you guys beating RUG Tempo? I can't seem to build a Bant list that breaks even with RUG, let alone owns it. What cards are you guys running for the matchup and how much success are you having?

[Misplayer]

Question: How are you guys beating RUG Tempo? I can't seem to build a Bant list that breaks even with RUG, let alone owns it. What cards are you guys running for the matchup and how much success are you having?

Tarmogoyf + EE & Path out of the board has been my plan. Thrun is also pretty good. However, some times they just have the nuts and Force your key spell. Delver has been less problematic for me than Mongoose.

[koba]

I can't imagine how you go FOW, SCM, and GSZ build. theres not enough space to include all of it.

if you want FOW, you need 18 blue cards. SCM, you need instants, and GSZ, you need green creatures.

Thats way too tough.

It is not. Something like this works fine:

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Vendillion Clique
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Quasali Pridemage
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Daze
2 Spell pierce

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland

Also, RUG tempo should not be a nightmare matchup. Ramp up the mana, drop a knight (knights are key) and win from there on. Unless they have a nutty draw on the play, you should generally win with a deck like the above. Also, snapcaster mages and paths sideboard buy you a lot of time to develop your manabase. Zenith gives you mana if you need it and knights if you have enough mana and shines in this matchup.

[Tombstalker]

Koba- that list reminds me alot of NO RUG. Drop NO for jtms and upgrade goyf to kotr, bolt becomes swords. Makes me curious if your board has the NO package.

[koba]

You’re right.

My list started as a Natural order bant deck (I never quite understood why RUG was so much more popular than NO bant). After a while, I figured out that, against quite a lot of decks, jace is as good as order and often even better and I made the switch, not changing all that much for the rest.

As order is awesome against some decks, I now include three orders (and progenitus) in my sideboard against maverick, bant, UW stoneforge and some other, mostly midrange, decks.

[Tombstalker]

Makes sense and u think overall your list is stronger than NO RUG. Not sure how it attacks up against more aggro versions of bant though, what has your experience been?

[The Duck!!]

Ran the same list with koba before. Difference is had 3 daze main and 2 jace,tms. In my experience,been really great with maverick. Being able to have stp to a max of 7. KotR, Vendilion Clique beats and Jace,tms ulti is the win-con here.

[Tombstalker]

The deck looks really good. Also just noticed my stupid phone messed up the intent if my last post.

[xfxf]

I've played against a list with Jace, Spell Pierce, 3x FoW maindeck, Noble Hierarch, KoTR, Pridemage, Stoneforge Mystic, Vendilion Clique, Dryad Arbor, Sylvan Library. How do all of these go in one deck? I was countering Sylvan Libraries one turn and Vendilion Cliques the other. Have you guys seen anything which incorporate all these packages?

[lordofthepit]

I've played against a list with Jace, Spell Pierce, 3x FoW maindeck, Noble Hierarch, KoTR, Pridemage, Stoneforge Mystic, Vendilion Clique, Dryad Arbor, Sylvan Library. How do all of these go in one deck? I was countering Sylvan Libraries one turn and Vendilion Cliques the other. Have you guys seen anything which incorporate all these packages?

It probably didn't run Green Sun's Zenith, Qasali Pridemage, or Scavenging Ooze, which I feel is a mistake. Not sure about the rest of the list.

[xfxf]

I didn't see Zenith but I'm pretty sure I saw a Pridemage when he was sorting out the deck after the match. There was also Geist. I was like :eyebrow:

[KobeBryan]

How is this deck a Decks to beat? I have not seen this deck top once...the only time i've seen bant top is actually in a GW/u shell.

We still cann't beat maverick.

[Vandalize]

How is this deck a Decks to beat? I have not seen this deck top once...the only time i've seen bant top is actually in a GW/u shell.

We still cann't beat maverick.

Natural Order variants has a good shot against Maverick. Just counter key spells (like Stoneforge and KotR) and let the Hydra do his work.

[kingsey]

Natural Order variants has a good shot against Maverick. Just counter key spells (like Stoneforge and KotR) and let the Hydra do his work.

Fact.

I can't get comfortable with a no list atm tho. Anyone wanna help?

[KobeBryan]

Fact.

I can't get comfortable with a no list atm tho. Anyone wanna help?

Same here...my board is so tight i cannot find a way to put No package in.

[Chikenbok]

If you guys post up lists and I can help Jam the NO package in there. Personally I've been running at about 45-50% pre and 70+% post against maverick so I'm not sure what the craziness is about but I'm always down to help.

Throw them lists up and I'll do what I can to help out.

[KobeBryan]

Creatures
1x scryb ranger
4x noble heirarch
4x knights of the reliquary
4x mother of runes
3x snapcaster mage
2x scavenging ooze
2x qasali pridemage

instnats
4x swords to plowshares
4x brainstorm
3x spell pierce

sorcery
3x green sun zenith

artifact
2x umezawa's jitte

planeswalker
1x elspeth
2x jace the mindsculptor

lands
4x misty rainforest
3x tropical island
2x tundra
2x savannah
3x windswept heaths
1x plains
1x forest
3x wastelands
1x karakas
1x flooded strand

sideboard
1x spell pierce
2x flusterstorm
2x ethersworn cannonist
3x tormod's crypt
2x path to exile
1x bojuka bog
1x rhox war monk
1x elspeth knight errant
2x krosan grip

[Hanni]

I see no reason to not fit the NO/Prog package in the sideboard, when Maverick just put 6 players in the Top 8 of the most recent SCG Open.

Also, I'm really digging the build that IBA ran at GP Indy, with 2 Jace, 2 Elspeth, 1 Garruk (Primal Hunter). The deck runs a ton of mana ramp to drop Plansewalker's pretty easily, and I like the Plansewalker approach better than SFM.

I may brew something similar in the next few days.

[koba]

Creatures
1x scryb ranger
4x noble heirarch
4x knights of the reliquary
4x mother of runes
3x snapcaster mage
2x scavenging ooze
2x qasali pridemage

instnats
4x swords to plowshares
4x brainstorm
3x spell pierce

sorcery
3x green sun zenith

artifact
2x umezawa's jitte

planeswalker
1x elspeth
2x jace the mindsculptor

lands
4x misty rainforest
3x tropical island
2x tundra
2x savannah
3x windswept heaths
1x plains
1x forest
3x wastelands
1x karakas
1x flooded strand

sideboard
1x spell pierce
2x flusterstorm
2x ethersworn cannonist
3x tormod's crypt
2x path to exile
1x bojuka bog
1x rhox war monk
1x elspeth knight errant
2x krosan grip

Drop elspeth if you want order. You do not want too many four drops.
I am also not very sold on krosan grip, especially if you have 2 qasali’s mainboard.

For the last card, maybe the war monk can go. You have 2 jitte and a low curve already, which should be good enough in aggressive matchups.

Also, I see that you do not play dryad arbor. You should if you want to play zenith and order (in the sideboard). The flooded strand should be a windswepth heath as well.

[Vandalize]

This is my latest Natural Order build:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Daze
2 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB: 3 Counterbalance
SB: 3 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Dryad Arbor

I'm trying out this sideboard, and it has been good (not great) so far. CounterTop is nice to have in plently matchups.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I see no reason to not fit the NO/Prog package in the sideboard, when Maverick just put 6 players in the Top 8 of the most recent SCG Open.

Also, I'm really digging the build that IBA ran at GP Indy, with 2 Jace, 2 Elspeth, 1 Garruk (Primal Hunter). The deck runs a ton of mana ramp to drop Plansewalker's pretty easily, and I like the Plansewalker approach better than SFM.

I may brew something similar in the next few days.

I'm not going to lie, that list was totes sweet.

[alastair]

This is my latest Natural Order build:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Daze
2 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

I'm trying out this sideboard, and it has been good (not great) so far. CounterTop is nice to have in plently matchups.

I’ve just re-built NO Bant after a year or so away from NO Bant/RUG. NO looks like a solid plan with everyone relying on 2/1 or 1/1 with swords. The list is similar to yours:

- 3 fetch
+1 Karakas
+1 Wastelands
+1 Dual

I also favour KoTR over Goyf, Ooze, and 1 Pridemage. Personal preference and I have not tested this yet. Goyf is solid, if unexciting. KoTR should give me a different angle of attack / resource, and is usually bigger than Goyf.

Agree with Daze to protect NO, but have reduced GSZ to add 1 Spell Pierce and 1 Maze of Ith. I can see a resurgence in combo, and UW lists can run a lot of counters. Maze is just value, and can be a headache for any creature centric opponent.

Lastly, only 1 Jace on my list. I’d like 2, but Progenitus takes up a slot that you are not showing.

We shall see how it performs at the weekend.

[KobeBryan]

Drop elspeth if you want order. You do not want too many four drops.
I am also not very sold on krosan grip, especially if you have 2 qasali’s mainboard.

For the last card, maybe the war monk can go. You have 2 jitte and a low curve already, which should be good enough in aggressive matchups.

Also, I see that you do not play dryad arbor. You should if you want to play zenith and order (in the sideboard). The flooded strand should be a windswepth heath as well.

So i should take out the 2 krsoan, 1 elsepth, and 1 rhox war monk for the NO package?

I don't know how to fit the last dryad arbor in main

[KobeBryan]

My new list. It does better against Mav, but seeing an opposing jitte wrecks ur game.

Creatures
1x scryb ranger
4x noble heirarch
4x knights of the reliquary
4x mother of runes
3x snapcaster mage
2x scavenging ooze
3x qasali pridemage
1x dryad arbor
1x rhox war monk

instnats
4x swords to plowshares
4x brainstorm
3x spell pierce

sorcery
4x green sun zenith

planeswalker
2x jace the mindsculptor

lands
4x misty rainforest
3x tropical island
2x tundra
2x savannah
3x windswept heaths
1x plains
1x forest
3x wastelands
1x karakas

sideboard
1x spell pierce
2x flusterstorm
2x ethersworn cannonist
3x tormod's crypt
2x path to exile
1x bojuka bog
3x natural order
1x progenitus

[Fizban]

Looks solid, but isn't NO without FoW a bit risky and what about combo?

I play Bant Blade atm, with FoW obviously and it wins me deciding moments all the time.. (also I have to add; Maverick is pretty dead over here)

I was interested in your opinions about my list and in particular what you guys think of the Bant Charm in the flex slot (I've tested it, but I just never seem to draw it).

My current list, I got top 4 with it in a small tournament.

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Bant Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
3 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

[KobeBryan]

Looks solid, but isn't NO without FoW a bit risky and what about combo?

I play Bant Blade atm, with FoW obviously and it wins me deciding moments all the time.. (also I have to add; Maverick is pretty dead over here)

I was interested in your opinions about my list and in particular what you guys think of the Bant Charm in the flex slot (I've tested it, but I just never seem to draw it).

My current list, I got top 4 with it in a small tournament.

4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Bant Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Ponder
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
3 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I always beleved rafiq is a win more card. You don't really need it.

Then you have bant charm. You can use bant charm, rafiq and replace it with qasali pridemage.

Medding mage is not really that good against combo. Ethersworn and thalia are much better.

You have lots of sideboard space, and you should really abuse it.

The reason why i run NO without FOW is because its primarily used against Maverick

[Fizban]

I always beleved rafiq is a win more card. You don't really need it.

Then you have bant charm. You can use bant charm, rafiq and replace it with qasali pridemage.

Medding mage is not really that good against combo. Ethersworn and thalia are much better.

You have lots of sideboard space, and you should really abuse it.

The reason why i run NO without FOW is because its primarily used against Maverick

First, thanks for your comments. Here are my thoughts;

Rafiq isn't just a win more card, he's formidable by himself and works great with clique (10 damage turn 3, with a noble offcourse) and you can use knight tricks with Karakas! Maybe he's the 5th big beasty, but I don't think that's too much in this deck. Besides I can't just take out blue cards and replace them with nonblue (the disadvantage of playing FoW).

Meddling Mage is a great card against the various combo decks like Storm, Reanimator, Sneaky Show and it can also be used against everything else, and it is blue too! Canonist and Thalia are also great but in a different deck (like Maverick or The Rock).

Pridemages are good, I've chosen not to use them so far because I don't use GSZ atm. But I just might do some testgames with them...

I would also like to run the NO package (I've got it in my binder) but without alot of Maverick I think it's not that useful to switch the SFM package for it.

About my side; I think I used it pretty well, but there is room for improvement too. I'm not sure about the Grafdiggers for instance they just don't seem to work really well, but I haven't seen them in play that often...

I think the Bant Charm has to go for sure, but what (has to be blue) to replace it with? Any suggestions (1 Daze; don't like, 1 Spell Pierce; doesn't work on creatures)?

[TheXile]

This is my latest Natural Order build:

4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Daze
2 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB: 3 Counterbalance
SB: 3 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Dryad Arbor

I'm trying out this sideboard, and it has been good (not great) so far. CounterTop is nice to have in plently matchups.

Um...what are you natural ordering? Tarmogoyf? Without Progenitus wouldn't you just be better off with GSZ..given NO costs 4 and your most expensive target is 3 (War Monk), thus GSZ would cost 4 as well...and you don't lose a creature.

[KobeBryan]

Um...what are you natural ordering? Tarmogoyf? Without Progenitus wouldn't you just be better off with GSZ..given NO costs 4 and your most expensive target is 3 (War Monk), thus GSZ would cost 4 as well...and you don't lose a creature.

I think he just forgot...i mean its rather silly to play 4 NOs and no prog.

[Vandalize]

Um...what are you natural ordering? Tarmogoyf? Without Progenitus wouldn't you just be better off with GSZ..given NO costs 4 and your most expensive target is 3 (War Monk), thus GSZ would cost 4 as well...and you don't lose a creature.

Yeah, I just forgot. Proggy is there.

My latest list:

Lands [20]
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
Creatures [13]
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Progenitus
Spells [27]
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
3 Daze
2 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard [15]
SB: 3 Counterbalance
SB: 3 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Dryad Arbor

[luckme10]

Temporal Mastery makes bant's mid/late game, a little less so. More importantly, I wanted to discuss the to the implications of potential to abuse Temporal Mastery on your opponents turn. What I mean by this is the ability to cast Temporal Mastery on your opponent's turn with only SDT or a combination of two draw filter effects Jace & BS etc as an abusable strategy.

Why would an aggro control deck with emphasis on mid/late game not want to abuse this? Bant is exactly that shell. The ability to wait until your opponent has any spells that you would want to counter, decide that when he/she doesn't, set up and "discard resilient" Temporal Mastery, and then have two consecutive untapped land based turns to improve your board state.

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Temporal Mastery
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top


We want to maximize our deck shuffling so we run Stoneforge Mystic. The Stoneforge package makes more sense to me over the green sun package because equipment has a is more of an incremental set up before you can take advantage of it. With temporal mastery cast, you have a good chance at Stoneforge, equip, and swing all before your opponent gets to go. Without temporal mastery, the more incremental mana is more useful here so you'll have more mana to leave open for counterspells, and during the opponent's end step Stoneforge activations.

Maze of Ith and Knight of the Reliquary also gain great abuse potential from having consecutive turns. That's 4 Knight of the Reliquary activations prior to your opponent's turn!

Our threat count is low so we run Batterskull is run in case there aren't enough threats on the board.

I run counterspells over Daze again because it is more advantageous now to actually leave land open. Now we have a greater incentive to sit on our counterspells and if the opponent doesn't cast a spell we like, we can use up that mana to cast Temporal Mastery and "save it" for the next turn. Think about this, it's almost like having a conditional Mana Drain!

One concern I have about this list, besides the obvious spreading of counterspells too thinly, is the low count of counterbalance. This almost guarantees a mid/late game cast or lock potential and thus becomes a clean up card, perhaps even a win more card, as there are very few cards that are cast in the later rounds that can catch up. May put them in sideboard for something else. Yet removing it entirely brings up the question, is Temporal Master better than Counterbalance/top...

[KobeBryan]

I wanted to discuss the to the implications of potential to abuse Temporal Mastery on your opponents turn. What I mean by this is the ability to cast Temporal Mastery on your opponent's turn with only SDT or a combination of two draw filter effects Jace & BS etc as an abusable strategy.

Why would an aggro control deck with emphasis on mid/late game not want to abuse this? Bant is exactly that shell. The ability to wait until your opponent has any spells that you would want to counter, decide that when he/she doesn't, set up and "discard resilient" Temporal Mastery, and then have two consecutive untapped land based turns to improve your board state.

1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Temporal Mastery
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

2 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top


We want to maximize our deck shuffling so we run Stoneforge Mystic. The Stoneforge package makes more sense to me over the green sun package because equipment has a delayed effect before you can take advantage of it. With temporal mastery, you have a good chance at Stoneforge, equip, and swing all before your opponent gets to go. The slower tempo is more useful here so you'll have something to do both turns

Maze of Ith and Knight of the Reliquary also gain great abuse potential from having consecutive turns. That's 4 Knight of the Reliquary activations prior to your opponent's turn!

Our threat count is low so we run Batterskull is run in case there aren't enough threats on the board.

I run counterspells over Daze because it is more advantageous to actually leave land open. Now we have a greater incentive to sit on our counterspells and if the opponent doesn't cast a spell we like, we can use up that mana to cast Temporal Mastery and "save it" for the next turn. Think about this, it's almost like having a conditional Mana Drain!

I don't understand your choice of cards.

1. no equipments with sfm.
2. Why play a singleton dryad arbor without gsz. i hate drawing into him. Its not a basic nor are you using the scryb ranger trick.


on a side note...since with temporal mastery, the purpose is the draw card ability..why not run lorescoatl...or whatever that card is.

[luckme10]

I don't understand your choice of cards.

1. no equipments with sfm.
2. Why play a singleton dryad arbor without gsz. i hate drawing into him. Its not a basic nor are you using the scryb ranger trick.


on a side note...since with temporal mastery, the purpose is the draw card ability..why not run lorescoatl...or whatever that card is.
You're right. Sorry still tweaking and making decisions.

That's a card I haven't looked at in a long time. I'll test it but I'm skeptical. KotR provides the same functions with more versatility. Even prior to KotR, countertop decks of the era prefered to run Goyf and maybe a pair of Rhox War Monks. This deck draw potential may be a little better with jace the mind sculptor, but again, it lacks the versitility of ith or karakas or sideboard bog as well as the wasteland lock potential with can be further abused by Temporal Mastery.

[KobeBryan]

problem with bant lists are that you can go whatever direction you want. Its good sometimes, but its horrible in another situation.

i still cant' decide whtehr to go GWu or FOW or snapcaster or SFM build.

[luckme10]

Actually, that's why I like Temporal Mastery. It's a build around me kind of card that forces you to make your card choices based on what would work best with it. While the card pool for bant "good stuff" is vast, now, you can pull what works better specifically for Temporal Mastery.

[KobeBryan]

Actually, that's why I like Temporal Mastery. It's a build around me kind of card that forces you to make your card choices based on what would work best with it. While the card pool for bant "good stuff" is vast, now, you can pull what works better specifically for Temporal Mastery.

In that case, it should really be a counter suit...dropping the sfm and gsz. for cliques, dazes, and snapcasters.

[luckme10]

Good points.
I guess my question is what control decks would want to utilize big beaters over more controlling spells if given the chance? If this is called tempo, does daze become an auto include over mana costing counters? With Temporal Mastery, I believe a tempo deck that stifles itself for progress no longer must be a requirement.


Snapcaster vs. Stoneforge is another matter.

Snapcaster Pros:
Pitchable to Force
can pull from vast selection of spells from graveyard
Acts as more counterspells/removal (5-8) in later game
Ability to cast instantly

Snapcaster Cons:
not a card to be cast on turn 2
Weak beater
Snapcaster+Knight = suseptable to graveyard hate
Must cast instantly

Stoneforge Pros:
Shuffles deck
More card advantage, good for drawing out game
Versitility of artifacts selection is more consistant (searching through library vs graveyard)
ability to gradually spread out mana costs over multiple turns
abiliity use active trigger at instant speed


Stoneforge Cons:
Weak beater alone but can be equipped
more total mana investment
slower to reap both rewards
needs to survive full turn to reap banneret advantages

Overall stoneforge works better with cards that have good beaters, while Snapcaster has more with stronger spells. But what if you have both? I think the answer came with the printing of Batterskull. Batterskull gives stoneforge a permanent beater and is now can be used in more control decks too. Now stoneforge can work as efficiently in decks that are more controlling and also, its cons are more mitagated by Temporal Mastery effects. In this deck, I believe stoneforge is a better tempo card than snapcaster for this reason.

Clique is also another what if:
It's a tempo card that works Clique actually works great with stoneforge and provides evasion. It also gives cool benefits at the cost of a weak body. I like the flying evasion but 3 is a steep casting cost against rug tempo. And it's not a viable blocker against maverick. Great against control, worse against aggro. Trades against Delver by turn 3.
You're right, it's worth considering, but how does it fare against maverick, the deck build on threat consistancy and toolboxing, which has the most advantage against most bant decks?

[KobeBryan]

Good points.
I guess my question is what control decks would want to utilize big beaters over more controlling spells if given the chance? If this is called tempo, does daze become an auto include over mana costing counters? With Temporal Mastery, I believe a tempo deck that stifles itself for progress no longer must be a requirement.


Snapcaster vs. Stoneforge is another matter.

Snapcaster Pros:
Pitchable to Force
can pull from vast selection of spells from graveyard
Acts as more counterspells/removal (5-8) in later game
Ability to cast instantly

Snapcaster Cons:
not a card to be cast on turn 2
Weak beater
Snapcaster+Knight = suseptable to graveyard hate
Must cast instantly

Stoneforge Pros:
Shuffles deck
More card advantage, good for drawing out game
Versitility of artifacts selection is more consistant (searching through library vs graveyard)
ability to gradually spread out mana costs over multiple turns
abiliity use active trigger at instant speed


Stoneforge Cons:
Weak beater alone but can be equipped
more total mana investment
slower to reap both rewards
needs to survive full turn to reap banneret advantages

Overall stoneforge works better with cards that have good beaters, while Snapcaster has more with stronger spells. But what if you have both? I think the answer came with the printing of Batterskull. Batterskull gives stoneforge a permanent beater and is now can be used in more control decks too. Now stoneforge can work as efficiently in decks that are more controlling and also, its cons are more mitagated by Temporal Mastery effects. In this deck, I believe stoneforge is a better tempo card than snapcaster for this reason.

Clique is also another what if:
It's a tempo card that works Clique actually works great with stoneforge and provides evasion. It also gives cool benefits at the cost of a weak body. I like the flying evasion but 3 is a steep casting cost against rug tempo. And it's not a viable blocker against maverick. Great against control, worse against aggro. Trades against Delver by turn 3.
You're right, it's worth considering, but how does it fare against maverick, the deck build on threat consistancy and toolboxing, which has the most advantage against most bant decks?

From my experience with maverick, its not even worth wasting too many slots on because in the end, its still a rough as hell matchup.

If you drop prog in, you increase your chances by like 5%. Any thing you play after that is marginal at best.

[JJ-JKidd]

A resolved Prog (via NO) is a lot scarier than a resolved SFM :cool:

[luckme10]

You don't run FoW with 8 blue cards. Likewise I wouldn't feel comfortable running NO in a deck with 8 green creatures, defense of the heart maybe... Although Maverick has tools to defend against Temporal Mastery, I believe the tempo gained from the card itself, in a deck designed to abuse it, would improve the matchup.

[koba]

I think you’re skewing the deck far too much in favour of temporal mastery. It is a good card in any bant deck with 4 brainstorm, 3 jace and maybe 1 or 2 ponder (and fow). You do not need to build your whole deck around it. It reminds me a little bit of the time when people wanted to include seal of fire instead of lightning bolt when tarmogoyf came out.

As far as I can tell, counterspell or counterbalance were not very good in this deck before and I do not see why it is all that good right now.

I also find it very hard to understand what you’re meaning half of the time, for example this:


I guess my question is what control decks would want to utilize big beaters over more controlling spells if given the chance? If this is called tempo, does daze become an auto include over mana costing counters? With Temporal Mastery, I believe a tempo deck that stifles itself for progress no longer must be a requirement.


Do not take it as an insult, but it is not easy to decipher what you actually mean here.

I would think daze is an excellent way to protect your mastery against counterspells and returning an island is far less painful if you have an extra turn to play it again.

[KobeBryan]

Here's my current decklist. I want to try to fit temporal mastery in here.

21 lands
4 tropical islands
2 tundras
1 savannah
1 flooded strand
3 windswept heath
4 misty rainforest
3 wasteland
1 forest
1 island
1 karakas

creatures 21
2 geist of saint traft
4 knights of the reliquary
4 noble heirach
2 qasali pridemage
2 vendilion clique
3 snapcaster mage
2 savenging ooze

spells 16
4 force of will
3 spell pierce
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm

Planeswalker 2
2 Jace the mind sculptor
1 elspeth knight errant

Artifacts
2x umezawa's jitte

Sideboard
1x tormod's crypt
1x circle protection red
1x ethersworn cannonist
1x phyrexian metamorth
2x flusterstorm
1x spell pierce
1x bojuka bog
2x path to exile
2x enlightened tutor
1x qasali pridemage
1x vendilion clique
1x engineered explosives

[JJ-JKidd]

The new un-counter-able land to be used to cast NO :eek: