[Deck] Bant

[anwei]

There are (always) a handful of variations which seem reasonable. The TNN GP was interesting because the prominence of the event and the widespread usage of SFM+TNN quickly led to an influx of -1/-1 effects in the meta would made Bant a comparatively bad choice. Sam Black said, after, that it probably wasn't a good choice going forward. Knight had already been in some trouble with lots of DRS and Decay around, and every fair deck around boarding 2-mana, 1-sided board wipes didn't help. This puts GSZ stock down quite a bit, as T2 1UU becomes more important, Arbor is weaker, and DRS provides a good alternative dork with late-game value if you want more than Hierarch. TNN certainly sees less aggressive play now than then, and the Treasure Cruise parenthesis might further scrub some of the format's memory on needing answers for TNN.

A few of the flavors on the radar at the moment:
- The Black/Duke list, with some (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15152&iddeck=112439) adjustments (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059-Deck-Bant&p=834690&viewfull=1#post834690)
- "Death-Bant," (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059-Deck-Bant&p=833028&viewfull=1#post833028) usually with 8 dorks (Hierarch+DRS), 0 GSZ, 3-4 SFM, and 6-7 3-drops from: 3-4 TNN, 0-3 Geist, 0-1 Clique
- Bahra's Noble Fish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27866-Noble-Fish) list with more guys, including Judge's Familiar, Looter il-Kor, and Edric
- Shardless Lists. (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15443&iddeck=114801) Yuck
- Attempts to figure out/break Monastery Mentor (see above)
- Other accelerated control setups show up sometimes: Countertop+NO, Depths, etc.

[Deckerator]

In my opinion i would play Llawan, Cephalid Empress for the merfolk match up.
I am not really sure what you can play against miracles. For me i thought about Grand Abolisher against the CB/SdT lock, the counters, Engineered Explosives against the Angel tokens and/or Pithing Needle to stop the Top

[KobeBryan]

There are (always) a handful of variations which seem reasonable. The TNN GP was interesting because the prominence of the event and the widespread usage of SFM+TNN quickly led to an influx of -1/-1 effects in the meta would made Bant a comparatively bad choice. Sam Black said, after, that it probably wasn't a good choice going forward. Knight had already been in some trouble with lots of DRS and Decay around, and every fair deck around boarding 2-mana, 1-sided board wipes didn't help. This puts GSZ stock down quite a bit, as T2 1UU becomes more important, Arbor is weaker, and DRS provides a good alternative dork with late-game value if you want more than Hierarch. TNN certainly sees less aggressive play now than then, and the Treasure Cruise parenthesis might further scrub some of the format's memory on needing answers for TNN.

A few of the flavors on the radar at the moment:
- The Black/Duke list, with some (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15152&iddeck=112439) adjustments (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059-Deck-Bant&p=834690&viewfull=1#post834690)
- "Death-Bant," (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059-Deck-Bant&p=833028&viewfull=1#post833028) usually with 8 dorks (Hierarch+DRS), 0 GSZ, 3-4 SFM, and 6-7 3-drops from: 3-4 TNN, 0-3 Geist, 0-1 Clique
- Bahra's Noble Fish (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27866-Noble-Fish) list with more guys, including Judge's Familiar, Looter il-Kor, and Edric
- Shardless Lists. (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15443&iddeck=114801) Yuck
- Attempts to figure out/break Monastery Mentor (see above)
- Other accelerated control setups show up sometimes: Countertop+NO, Depths, etc.

He's right. I got hosed by pyroclasm. Its as if none of my creatures can survive it.

[maharis]

I'm not sure how good this is now, because the cards aren't really there to support it, but bolstering a TNN or Geist doesn't seem like the worst thing ever. Something like:

4 DRS
4 SFM
2 TNN
2 GoST
1 Hierarch
1 Sandsteppe Mastodon

4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3-4 Daze
3-4 STP
2 NO
2 GSZ
1 Sylvan
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
0-1 Spell Pierce

1 Dryad Arbor
20-21 other lands (Wasteland?)

could be a starting point until Dragons of Tarkir gives us more Bolster cards. You could also board into a more dedicated NO plan if you expect SFM hate (1 NO, 1 Progenitus or something along those lines).

Just a thought.

Edit: Forgot about removal.

[Undomian]

Putting a Mastodon in your deck is realistically about the same as putting Progenitus into your deck, as you probably won't be casting either of those cards. I could maybe see it if you could pick what you wanted to bolster every time, but casting NO for a 5/5 and an Increasing Savagery seems pretty subpar when you consider your other options.

[maharis]

Putting a Mastodon in your deck is realistically about the same as putting Progenitus into your deck, as you probably won't be casting either of those cards. I could maybe see it if you could pick what you wanted to bolster every time, but casting NO for a 5/5 and an Increasing Savagery seems pretty subpar when you consider your other options.

I agree somewhat. I guess my feeling is that you still put 10 power on the board, 5 of it goes to a creature that will swing for 8 unblockable (TNN) or 7 hexproof and 4 flying (GoST), and if they edict you you just sac the Mastodon. Or, if you're really in a pickle, you end up with a single 10/10 reachstodon (nice Griselbrand), or a 6/6 Dryad Arbor, or a 6/7 SFM/DRS, which is still pretty nice value. Keep in mind that with only 1 Hierarch and 1 Dryad Arbor in the deck, and 4 DRS, you will almost always get to bolster your TNN or Geist (unless you happen to have exactly Arbor, Hierarch, Geist out when you cast NO).

Ideally, there will be some better bolster cards in Dragons of Tarkir. All of the ones in Fate Reforged suck. Hell, Mastodon sucks, it's just the best one of the bunch since we have Natural Order already. A useful spell that makes your hexproof beast bigger would be really interesting, I think.

[Alix444]

I know daze goes really well with mana dorks as it offsets picking up a land, and I understand it is natural to play wastelands with dazes and KotR. But isn't it kinda of a shame to not be playing any stifles? I mean daze, wasteland and stifle are kind of a holy trinity. Is it that bant isn't fast enough to capitalize on the mana denial? Or that the more powerful cards will just outshine the mana plan?

[anwei]

Usually the first one.
It's not too far off to say that where decks like RUG Delver use Wasteland/Stifle to keep things in the early game (where they hope to end it), Bant better uses Wasteland to keep things in the mid-game (and dorks to jump us there first): we want to accelerate into 3-drop land with protection, and keep them from resolving significant spells.
Comparing with RUG Delver again, our threats are generally more resilient (we don't need to Daze lightning bolt @ Knight/TNN/Geist[/SFM]), they're more powerful, and almost getting them to 0 isn't good enough (since we don't have bolts).

[HSCK]

Very classic Bant deck took down the 5K. Food Chain last week too.

[zzregz]

Since stoneblade is banging in the meta i decided to make my own version of stoneblade.


Bant Stoneblade:

4 sfm
4 noble h
2 tnn
2 s ooze
2 thrun, tlt
(14 creature)

3 fow
2 daze
3 s pierce
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 dtt
4 StP
1 PtE
1 batterskull
1 u jitte
2 council's j
1 counterspell
(26 other spell)

2 w heath
3 misty r
3 flooded s
2 wasteland
3 trop i
2 tundra
1 savannah
1 island
1 forest
1 plains
1 karakas
(20 land)


2 priest
2 g cage
2 surgical e
2 m mage
1 fow
2 flusterstorm
1 disenchant
1 k grip
1 p needle
1 v clique
(15 sb)


What do you to my build?

[Alix444]

Your main deck has a lot of dead cards to combo, I would suggest hedging by cutting a pte, a council, and a creature to get up to 4 daze and 4 FoW.

[zzregz]

Your main deck has a lot of dead cards to combo, I would suggest hedging by cutting a pte, a council, and a creature to get up to 4 daze and 4 FoW.


I think im ok to this build. Because theres a lot of anti combo decks right now and my sideboard is ready to stop them...

[HSCK]

What does everyone think of Collected Company in Bant with Brainstorms?

[Alix444]

Is it better than jace?

[Tokugawa]

You would want a 4cc green spell close the game for you. Even NO was considered not effective enough, so this DTK thing…

[HSCK]

I never liked Jace or NO in these builds very much, it would definitely more like a Blue Maverick deck than what is currently being worked on. Despite the win at LA, I'm not sure how high the ceiling is for this deck.

[qwertyly]

Hello to everyone! My meta is fair decks, so I deicide to play Aggro Bant.

Here's my Bant list:

21 LANDS

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
2 Karakas

15 CREATURES

3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Noble Hierarch
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze

19 INSTANTS and SORC.

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
2 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce

4 OTHER SPELLS
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

SIDEBOARD

1 Council's Judgment
1 Meddling Mage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Containment Priest
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Krosan Grip
1 Chill
2 Engineered Explosives

What do you think about this list?

[anwei]

Hello to everyone! My meta is fair decks, so I deicide to play Aggro Bant.

Here's my Bant list:

...

What do you think about this list?


The power of the hexproof guy + blade lists, in Bant, comes from the acceleration available. I would play at least 7 dorks (+3 DRS), or reconsider the density of 3-drops.
The Island and 2x Karakas are straining your manabase in ways that probably aren't worth it. Depends on your meta, but Island isn't beating blood moon. You may just have lots of snt/reanimator, which would account for Karakas and Ooze, in which case, cool. But I wouldn't play those in an open meta.
Ooze is a good card in different decks. It doesn't especially help the voltron-y hexproof aggro plan. That'd be the easiest cut if you wanted to make space. Elspeth, Pierce, and Ponder are the others I'd consider weak-ish.

[qwertyly]

The power of the hexproof guy + blade lists, in Bant, comes from the acceleration available. I would play at least 7 dorks (+3 DRS), or reconsider the density of 3-drops.
The Island and 2x Karakas are straining your manabase in ways that probably aren't worth it. Depends on your meta, but Island isn't beating blood moon. You may just have lots of snt/reanimator, which would account for Karakas and Ooze, in which case, cool. But I wouldn't play those in an open meta.
Ooze is a good card in different decks. It doesn't especially help the voltron-y hexproof aggro plan. That'd be the easiest cut if you wanted to make space. Elspeth, Pierce, and Ponder are the others I'd consider weak-ish.


Thank you for answer!

So I can replace Ooze, Elspeth, 1 Ponder to 3 DRS, and another Ponder to Sylvan Library, remove Island to fetch. Why Pierce is weak-ish? Always I use it for answer to opp's counterspell.

[anwei]

Thank you for answer!

So I can replace Ooze, Elspeth, 1 Ponder to 3 DRS, and another Ponder to Sylvan Library, remove Island to fetch. Why Pierce is weak-ish? Always I use it for answer to opp's counterspell.

Pierce isn't terrible, but it's a better disruptive card for combo than for protecting your guys. The deck has the threat density to play a consistent gameplan of T1 Dork, T2 Hexproof Threat, T3 make threat better (SFM, Sword, Pridemage) and attack. The hexproof-ness of threats means you're mainly worried about counters, and waiting a turn to hold up Pierce is counterproductive. Later on, when you have the mana to do that, they often have the mana to pay.

[qwertyly]

Pierce isn't terrible, but it's a better disruptive card for combo than for protecting your guys. The deck has the threat density to play a consistent gameplan of T1 Dork, T2 Hexproof Threat, T3 make threat better (SFM, Sword, Pridemage) and attack. The hexproof-ness of threats means you're mainly worried about counters, and waiting a turn to hold up Pierce is counterproductive. Later on, when you have the mana to do that, they often have the mana to pay.

May be play 4 Daze 1 Pierce for this reason? Could you change this list how it's must look like? Thx.

[Richard Cheese]

Pierce isn't terrible, but it's a better disruptive card for combo than for protecting your guys. The deck has the threat density to play a consistent gameplan of T1 Dork, T2 Hexproof Threat, T3 make threat better (SFM, Sword, Pridemage) and attack. The hexproof-ness of threats means you're mainly worried about counters, and waiting a turn to hold up Pierce is counterproductive. Later on, when you have the mana to do that, they often have the mana to pay.

Would it just make sense to run Counterspell? With TNN/Geist as your main beaters, the primary concern is sweepers...mostly Terminus. Granted you probably won't have protection the same turn you drop your threat, but taxing counters are more or less useless against Miracles, and I think a lot of players will try to hold off on Terminus to maximize the value they get out of it. Once we've made a 3-drop though, keeping UU up shouldn't be much of a problem.

[anwei]

I played this (Death-bant-ish) over the weekend at a small event and did okay. I played 3 SFM, Sword of FI, Jitte (no Batterskull) as the SFM package and tried 1 Unstable Mutation and 1 Stifle. With the current ubiquity of Miracles, maindeck Stifle seems even better as a miracle-counter (in addition to its tempo and keep-angel-around features). It seemed more than reasonable in most matches, and I wouldn't mind running more.

Mutation (with enchantments in general) is interesting for a couple of reasons. It's probably wrong in the SFM lists, but is (a) faster than equipment, and (b) lets you leave mana up. The latter further inclines me toward more Stifle as a miracle-counter and as a Stone Rain. When Phillip Contreras won an Open with Blouses, (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44895) the targets for the enchantments were not as good, since +3/+3 on Geist can be pretty mediocre without evasion. In some testing, the ability to slam +3/+3 onto a Geist for only U, and swing for 10 on T3, seemed insane compared to casting SFM and hoping I could get in with Jitte/Sword by T4. That value proposition remains in play, but I wasn't playing the right build for it, and it was way more common that I was playing a slightly slower game. Maybe 20 lands, 8 dorks, 4 tnn, 3 geist, 2 pridemage, 5 Spectral Flight / Mutation, 3 Force, 4 Daze, 3 Stifle, 4 Brainstorm, 4 StP. It's possible that maindeck Submerge, or Path, is better than some number of Swords.

If I played again tomorrow, I'd run:
3 Tundra
2 Trop
1 Savannah
1 U Sea
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
=21 Lands

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis (4?)
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique (0?)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace, the Mind-Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Board
2 Containment Priest
1 Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Batterskull
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Submerge

[danpo]

Hi! I like to play decks that cast creatures and win by attacking, and I hate losing to Show and Tell.

My meta consists of lots of random combo, one or two lands players, a burn guy, and lots of one-toughness-dot-decs like Elves, Death & Taxes, Young Pyromancer etc.
(Miracles exists some weeks but seems less prevalent than say this past Sunday's SCG T16 or the last GP in Japan.)

In addition, I spent all weekend thinking about how to beat a D&T build with Imperial Recruiter and Magus of the Moon, which on Friday wrecked an alternate build of the deck below that involved True-name Nemesis, a random Tasigur, Green Sun's Zenith for Qasali Pridemage/Gaddock Teeg/Edric Spymaster and 4x Judge's Familiar.

Anyway, here's what I ran last night at the $5 local 12-man.

(18)
4 deathrite
4 stoneforge
4 mainboard meddling mage
4 goyf
1 batterskull
1 jitte

(21)
2 gitaxian probe
2 preordain
4 brainstorm
3 force of will
4 daze
4 swords to plowshares
2 abrupt decay.

(22)
4 wasteland
4 misty
4 heath
3 tropical island
1 savannah
1 tundra
1 bayou
1 scrubland
1 island
1 forest
1 plains

(15)
1 force of will
2 hydroblast
2 surgical
2 spell pierce
4 zealous persecution
4 leyline of sanctity

The 61st card is basic Plains because in my meta Moon effects/Price of Progress/Wastelock are real. I spent awhile considering a random Lingering Souls and also Containment Priest in here but meh.
I played Preordain over Ponder because I can resolve it faster and am basically just mad all the time at decks that play 4x Ponder.

Round 1:
Game one starts awkward, think I Wasteland early. Eventually I Daze on Gitaxian Probe, Probe back and see Cabal Therapy, Young Pyromancer, Bolt and Force.
I play a Meddling Mage naming Bolt, cast Abrupt Decay on YP and am later told my opponent drew another Bolt while sitting there dying. Also because when he casts Therapy my mana-base looks like a really intense trade in progress he has no idea what to name and whiffs, yay for weirdstuff.
Game two he beats me down with Tasigur for awhile while I stare at an Abrupt Decay in my hand. Eventually I somehow kill it in combat and think I'm stabilizing when suddenly it becomes very clear this is not your typical Grixis aggro-control matchup. He bins a Griselbrand and I Decay his Animate Dead on it. Then he Animates a Worldgorger Dragon.
Ahem.
MY OPPONENT MADE INFINITE MANA WITH WORLD-GORGER COMBO.
The idea here is eventually he Animates Tasigur, draws every piece of action in his deck and then uses Tasigur to re-buy Bolt infinite times. Does this even work? I'd rather scoop and board in Surgical than study it.
Game three was anticlimactic as I quickly Wasteland him, G-Goyf ya (2x) and have FOW backup.

Rounds 2-3 are both U/B Reanimator.
I win one and run out of time with the other (he has Elesh in turns but I had Brainstorm and Swords on top after the handshake). The guy I went to time with generally had better keeps and brought in Show and Tell, which gives him lots of angles around Meddling Mage. Wasteland and Daze shine a lot in this matchup -- I left a couple Dazes in, even on the draw, as well as Swords because otherwise he can try to Reanimate my own Goyf after countering/Thoughtseize.
Curious to hear how other people would sideboard here. I think whoever said you have to counter their enablers (Entomb/Careful Study) because otherwise they have like 10 animate effects -- too many to fight -- is right.

Round 4 is that dreaded matchup with my friend playing Imperial Taxes.
We spent over an hour on this because it was the last round and the store did not care. I managed to win game two but lost a long grindy match.
It was complex but here are some takeaways:
- He boarded out Magus because I showed him lots of fetched basics.
- I didn't know that, and brought in Hydroblast, which I guess could counter Recruiter and also Forked Bolt which is a card he said he could've brought in but which is unimpressive against me as I don’t actually play anything with just one toughness.
- The cards I fear here and want to name with Meddling Mage -- SFM and StP -- are also in my own deck. Plus he has Vial. I board Pikula out.
- We spent a huge amount of the games maneuvering around each other's Jittes. His Jitte outperforms mine because he has flyers/Mom/a creature with first strike to carry it (Thalia) plus if I threaten to run away with things he just has Revoker and can fetch it with Recruiter / Vial it out.
- Zealous Persecution is everything I dreamed of IF I CAN DRAW IT WHILE NOT GETTING CUT OFF BLACK. You better believe one draft of this deck featured a second Bayou in the sideboard.
- He very kindly gave me a ride home and said he felt like my deck struggles in this matchup because it goes into blue instead of just being Maverick. Sigh. Maverick does not feel close to good enough these days.
- My temptation is a card like Damping Matrix to make his gear/Vials/Moms etc worse but it also makes a lot of my gameplan real bad too.

Anyway. Thoughts on the deck? I just want to Bruce Lee my local meta. You know.

[ironclad8690]

How does this look for a bant list? I wanted to play a Rhox War Monk because of all the racey Young Pyromancer lightning bolt decks.

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Council's Judgment
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
3 Meddling Mage
2 Path to Exile
2 Containment Priest
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Flusterstorm
1 Humility
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Envelop

[anwei]

I love War Monk, even though bolt and pyroblast gain traction together.

Tinkerings, which you may have decided against already, but either way:
- I'd try to get the U count up closer to 18 to support 2 FoW. Easy adds are 1-2 Ponder, 1-2 Dig.
- 4 GSZ is a lot for the weak selection you have. If you get your Knight/Monk killed, you're going to be sad. For a SFM/TNN list, 3 is a pretty good number. And even then, I'd be looking at some number of: Pridemage, Ooze, 2nd Knight.
- Other good-but-cuttables: Council's Judgment, Sylvan, and 3rd Equipment. These are all good cards, that justify their inclusion as individual choices. However, this is a more constrained deck than most.
- Containment Priest has obvious anti-synergies.
- Use your GSZ access a little more in the board: Pridemage and Ooze are both fantastic at what they do, and the virtual-5-copies gives way more purchase than the 2nd grip.

[maharis]

Hi, while I'm tinkering with various probably bad decks, I think I'd like to sleeve up Bant as a go-to in the short term since the Grixis deck I had been playing will need a rebuild. I always wanted to play this deck, but it seemed so bad with DTT in the format (since it took KotR off the table, but not playing it was insane in this kind of deck).

It's pretty much Sam Black's GPDC list from 2013 with a couple substitutions.

4 Noble Hierarch
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Daze
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Savannah

There's no "new" cards in it, though, which makes me uneasy. It's not like nothing's happened in Legacy other than Delve since 2013. Anyone been working on this deck under the radar?

[anwei]

I'm trying Retreat at the moment. I've been a repeated fan of Natural Order in GSZ Bant as a trump-card in midrange matches, and Retreat has several advantages over NO. I'm not sure the deck has legs (especially against Miracles), but it seems fun. Even a modest commitment to the combo, however, probably excludes SFM and TNN.

That list seems fine, though I'd probably rather have a Jace than 3rd Ponder. Terminus is enough of a liability for the dork-accelerated plan that I like having extra tools against Miracles, and Jace pairs well with almost all your mid-sized threat plans.

[HSCK]

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD00268S/

This player has been grinding Bant at Saito's shop for awhile and it looks really interesting.

[KobeBryan]

3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland

4 Noble Hierarch
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Birds of Paradise

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Played 5 games. Lost all 5. Played against a bunch of BUG decks and lands decks running decay. Decay is a big issue against this deck. I also lost to DNT by racing a Mirran crusader with a sword of fire and ice.

Can't deal with abrupt decay man. That card is strong. This deck also doesn't have much of a way to deal with a resolved liliana. That card is a pain in the butt.

Retreat was not successful in anyway. Never hand the opportunity to get this sucker REALLY big.

[anwei]

Have you tried a dedicated build? 2-off + 3-off without the mana base to swing lethal seems not worth it...
I've also got maindeck Sigarda, and Retreat can make the mana pop to ramp out GSZ@5 when relavent.

[anwei]

I played my Retreat today at an SIQ and did disappointingly, though my losses were largely to drawing terribly (3 straight retreats, at one point) and my bad plays.

In perhaps the worst play I've ever made, I combo'd out in G3, in turns, against a Merfolk player. For reasons I can't figure out (I was a little, but not *that* tight on mana...), instead of tapping his lone blocker, I Steppe'd Knight to pro-blue and then sacc'd one final land to leave Wasteland up if I somehow needed a little more mana. Judge points out that Knight has pro-blue, and can't be untapped. I have a 25/19 tapped-down Knight, no lands left in deck, and no red mana open to get (Wolf Run) trample back. He drops a TNN and I can't attack, then a Relic on turn-4-of-turns, and that's it.

Don't pro-blue without combo-ing in response kids.

Unrelatedly, did I read "Sir Robin" as the name for the deck somewhere, or did I dream that? (I.e., the Knight who wants to Retreat from Monty Python's Quest for the Grail..) - I think I'm going with that...

[maharis]

Played this to a 3-1 finish tonight:

4 Noble Hierarch
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Daze
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Savannah

2 Meddling Mage
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Snare
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Council's Judgment
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Engineered Explosives

12 players.

Rd. 1 Miracles: Game 1 he assembles Countertop early. I sneak a Pridemage through but get greedy attacking with my Noble Hierarch; Pridemage is plowed and I lose. In games 2 and 3 I assemble Teeg-Karakas early and win in turns, 2-1, 1-0.

Rd. 2 Dragon Stompy: Game 1 I tempo him out with Wasteland and Daze and win with a double-Exalted TNN. He resolved a Thunderbreak Regent though so that was sweet. Game 2 he gets Chalice and Rabblemaster and I scoop em up in second. Game 3 he gets stuck on land. 2-1, 2-0.

Rd. 3 Reanimator: We were sitting next to each other the previous round so knew what we were each playing. So when I drew a hand of 5 lands including Karakas, Pridemage and Force of Will, I just kept it because he doesn't have Pithing Needles preboard anyway and might not play around Karakas if he doesn't see it. My draws are very good -- I think I hit a Brainstorm early and trade in some lands -- and after he Exhumes Griz and passes I drop Karakas with two Pridemages down for pressure. In game 2, he Needled Karakas early, but I had boarded out pridemages. I hail-maried Meddling Mage on Reanimate but he had Exhume. Game 3 was really tight. I Revoke Gris turn 2 with Daze in hand. We fight over an Entomb and he gets Griselbrand anyway, but doesn't have the needle for Karakas which I have because mise. With Griz out of the picture he goes for an Animate Dead on Grave Titan. I swords it. At this point my plan is to not die to the two zombies, thinking I'm in the clear. So I brainstorm, play Hierarch and Needle Griz, leave a GSZ on top to draw and find a Knight to take over from there. He entombs confidently, which surprises me, but OK. The target is Inkwell Leviathan. Can't beat it. 1-2, 2-1.

Rd. 4 ANT: Not much to say here, we both go to 6, he keeps no lands, but my 6 is pretty nice with trop-hierarch-daze-wasteland. Two probes do not yield land and he passes with an empty field. I win eventually. Game 2 I have a sick opener of Brainstorm, Daze, Flusterstorm, GSZ, Wasteland, and two fetches,then rip Hierarch off the top. He has a lot of discard for my counters, but not much else, and he dies to a hardcast Batterskull. 2-0, 3-1.

Overall the deck felt really good. I continue to be surprised this isn't a more common choice. I think I might want a little more GY hate in the sideboard. Neither Jace did anything all night, but at the same time I'm not sure 2 knights is really necessary so I might either borrow a JVP or play a Snapcaster there (for occasional recycling of STP which could be needed).

[maharis]

Eternal Extravaganza build. 16 card sideboard. Suggestions for a cut, or other alteration to get down to 75?

4 Noble Hierarch
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Savannah

2 Meddling Mage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Snare
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Council's Judgment
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Engineered Explosives

[KobeBryan]

Eternal Extravaganza build. 16 card sideboard. Suggestions for a cut, or other alteration to get down to 75?

4 Noble Hierarch
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Daze
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Flooded Strand
1 Karakas
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Savannah

2 Meddling Mage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Snare
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Council's Judgment
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Engineered Explosives

1 of spell snare.

[anwei]

Eternal Extravaganza build. 16 card sideboard. Suggestions for a cut, or other alteration to get down to 75?


I think I'd rather have a Jace than a 3rd Ponder. I don't usually like Snapcaster in a deck that already has a lot of 3-drops, doesn't often have reasons to leave mana up, and has a lot more impressive bodies often available. Something there could kick up space for the 8th maindeck counter (Pierce).

It's obviously a liability of the gotcha-ness of the card, but I'm often disappointed by Baloth (in part because I try it often). Nothing else looks easy to cut in the board.

I do really like Envelop over Spell Pierce in Bant when Miracles is around and Envelop makes sense against the current regime of combo decks, and that definitely describes the meta. It hits most things that you actively want to board in counters for (SnT, Storm Tutors, NO/GSZ in Elves, enough burn) and can do a lot of work against Terminus. Obviously, Jace/Lily and Sneak Attack are cards.

Strand should be Misty.

[maharis]

Thanks. Card availability is an issue but I will try to get my hands on a Jace + a couple Envelops before Saturday.

I don't think I'll cut Ponder though, I think it will be SCM. Snap is basically there as STP #5 because I don't want to play PTE. I guess Jace fills the removal slot I want while also being force-pitchable.

[HSCK]

I did some light testing this week with friends going to EE. I would definitely have at least 2 Knights, even with the Zeniths. Also still on 4 Mystic.

[ironclad8690]

I think I'd rather have a Jace than a 3rd Ponder. I don't usually like Snapcaster in a deck that already has a lot of 3-drops, doesn't often have reasons to leave mana up, and has a lot more impressive bodies often available. Something there could kick up space for the 8th maindeck counter (Pierce).

It's obviously a liability of the gotcha-ness of the card, but I'm often disappointed by Baloth (in part because I try it often). Nothing else looks easy to cut in the board.

I do really like Envelop over Spell Pierce in Bant when Miracles is around and Envelop makes sense against the current regime of combo decks, and that definitely describes the meta. It hits most things that you actively want to board in counters for (SnT, Storm Tutors, NO/GSZ in Elves, enough burn) and can do a lot of work against Terminus. Obviously, Jace/Lily and Sneak Attack are cards.

Strand should be Misty.

Ancestral Vision and Hymn are also juicy sorceries to counter. I +1 recommend Jace to give you another angle to attack Miracles. It is just too hard to win when creatures are your only angle. Jace puts them in the position to proactively kill it, though they will probably be bringing in REB anyways if they see TNN. Garruk Relentless could also be sweet, as it is Council's Judgment/Clique/Surprise Snapcaster or bust.

[anwei]

I'm 5-1 at scg stl with knight-retreat. I made a new thread for that. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30043-Brave-Sir-Robin-(Bant-Knight-Retreat)&p=911556#post911556)

[maharis]

I finished in 4th place at eternal extravaganza. 6-0 at one point. Report will come soon.

[HSCK]

Awesome! Between you there and Anwei at SCG, Bant's having a nice weekend.

[maharis]

thanks. Report is up if you're interested:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30049-Eternal-Extravaganza-3-4th-place-with-Bant-Midrange&p=911895&viewfull=1#post911895

[anwei]

Sweet. This might be my exact 60, for this deck. Congratulations again.

[Artlee]

thanks. Report is up if you're interested:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30049-Eternal-Extravaganza-3-4th-place-with-Bant-Midrange&p=911895&viewfull=1#post911895

Nice report, thanks! Got a couple of questions

I see you did a good job dodging tempo mathups with Delver and stifles and 20 lands seems on the low side. Does this mean that you prioritize Noble Hierarchs in opening 7, or basic lands in case of no Noble?

What are your thoughts on only 1 Jace? I assume the second Jace was cut for one more Ponder. As i type it makes me think whether this is to mitigate the low land count, is that right?

[TnA_Will]

Out of curiosity should Reliquary Retreat have its own thread or should it just be a "version" of bant?

[maharis]

Nice report, thanks! Got a couple of questions

I see you did a good job dodging tempo mathups with Delver and stifles and 20 lands seems on the low side. Does this mean that you prioritize Noble Hierarchs in opening 7, or basic lands in case of no Noble?

What are your thoughts on only 1 Jace? I assume the second Jace was cut for one more Ponder. As i type it makes me think whether this is to mitigate the low land count, is that right?

Thank you. Yes, that is close to right. To be honest, I wasn't very worried about the card Stifle. RUG is a little marginal at the moment, and BUG doesn't always play it. It also loses steam fast, sometimes as soon as the Stifle player loses the die roll. I did get nervous against Tarn-go, as I noted in the report, but even if he had RUGged me out instead of being on TES sometimes you can't do anything about that. This is a thing in the Nic Fit thread, where we were basically built to destroy tempo decks, but sometimes they just had "Delver hands" and you lose.

I ended up at 20 lands + Dryad Arbor when I cut a 4th Wasteland for the 3rd GSZ. I decided that what I wanted to do was to pass most turn 1s with 2 mana in play, more than I wanted to protect against Stifle and/or Waste. I actually view this deck as sort of a tempo deck and untapping with access to 3 mana on turn 2 consistently is a great way to win a tempo game, especially if you have Daze or Wasteland in your hand as well. I could see an argument for getting another colored source in there, though. The cut would probably be Spell Snare, but man that card is sweet.

I didn't own a Jace until like 5:00 the night before the tournament, haha. I had to run to the store to get it before I could talk myself out of it. I don't know if 2 mainboard is right but I could see siding another. Sylvan Library does a lot of what you want Jace to do, much earlier in the game, and I think what we are trying to do is establish a formidable board fast (4-drops aren't great for that). Jace is obviously great in any long game though.

So we're in this Ponder vs. Jace vs. more land triangle, and I just think Ponder is right more often. It gives you the option to disguise your deck turn 1 (No one gets to Bant from trop-ponder or tundra-ponder), and gives you that extra cantrip to find land, a two-drop, or a sideboard answer.

I don't know if that was a clear answer to your questions but hope it helps!

[Artlee]

I don't know if that was a clear answer to your questions but hope it helps!

It sure was. Thanks for the reply!

[maharis]

The heater is dead... 0-3, 0-6 at last local. Played Lands, Shardless, and Elves, which are all tough, and had some very close games despite that, but they clearly are just uphill climbs. I cut a GSZ and Spell Snare for 2 Spell Pierce.

How close?
Lands player has back-to-back Krosan Grip for my t3 Skull and t4 Needle on Thespian's Stage, which made things super hard because he ended up with double Maze and I couldn't find TNN
Shardless player facing down TNN + Hierarch at 4 life, no other board, only 2 lands, I force a suspended Visions, he topdecks fetchland + has deluge for 1 to wipe me out and win from 2 life
Elves player topdecks Rec Sage in g1 just in time to kill my Jitte. In game 2 I have Sylvan going, he has only 3 bouncy guys and one forest in play after I kill a DRS on my turn. So he can make at most 2 mana next turn unless he has Birchlore Rangers. I look at the top 3: double spell pierce and Karakas. I decide to keep Karakas because his deck has 30 creatures and I'm trying to get a Batterskull down that I've got in hand. He plays Glimpse, forest, Birchlore and passes with 7 guys in play. Had I kept pierce I would've stopped the glimpse. So aggravating

Some tech I've been considering:

Propaganda -- to tap the brakes on Elves. This requires you to not let them have a Gaea's Cradle, of course. This over Ghostly Prison because it pitches to Force in a pinch and over Elephant Grass because cumulative upkeep.
Hibernation -- elves panic button, terrible in your Noble Hierarch deck but beggars can't be choosers
Ground Seal -- cantrips, good vs. DRS, Loam, Reanimate
Academy Ruins -- knight-fetchable way to recur EE, Tormod's Crypt, and equips

Also considering cutting the SFM + Skull and just playing 2 Jitte and another Knight + GSZ or something.

[Seraphix]

...

Propaganda -- to tap the brakes on Elves. This requires you to not let them have a Gaea's Cradle, of course. This over Ghostly Prison because it pitches to Force in a pinch and over Elephant Grass because cumulative upkeep.
Hibernation -- elves panic button, terrible in your Noble Hierarch deck but beggars can't be choosers
Ground Seal -- cantrips, good vs. DRS, Loam, Reanimate
Academy Ruins -- knight-fetchable way to recur EE, Tormod's Crypt, and equips

Also considering cutting the SFM + Skull and just playing 2 Jitte and another Knight + GSZ or something.

I really like the improvements you made against the BUG decks but Elves just seems like a nightmare tbh. I don't think Propaganda is good enough because it can't cover NO for Progenitus-like cards. I'm always on the hunt for cards that are good against Elves but Hibernation is one I've never considered. Might be worth testing.

[Qweerios]

Has anyone tinkered with Collected Company in Bant? It seems to me like being able to instantly grab 2 creatures off the top for 1 card would give this deck the card advantage it needs to hang with the midrange and control decks.

[Echelon]

What cards from the deck would you replace for it and how many creatures do you think to hit on average, given the creature count of this deck..?

Most builds seem to run between 14 and 18 creatures as is. Odds are, you often won't hit more then 1 creature @ CMC 3 or less per 4 cards you look at (as long as you don't replace any creatures with CCs. If you do, that number goes down even more). Might as well just play that creature at sorcery speed without spending the extra mana on it.

Seriously, Collected Company does not have a place in Legacy. Anywhere.

[anwei]

Matt Krouti took 9th at SCG KC:
(http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=95316)

Creatures (22)
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

Planeswalkers (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (21)
1 Forest
2 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas

Spells (15)
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sylvan Library
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


I can totally get behind cutting maindeck FoWs for a bigger SFM+TNN plan with green support guys, but I have to think he always wants to see Hierarch, to the point that a Hierarch (http://magiccards.info/query?q=dryad+arbor)/Disenchant (http://magiccards.info/query?q=qasali+pridemage)/Crypt (http://magiccards.info/query?q=scavenging+ooze&v=card&s=cname)/Expedition Map (http://magiccards.info/query?q=knight+of+the+reliquary&v=card&s=cname)/Leviathan (http://magiccards.info/query?q=knight+of+the+reliquary&v=card&s=cname) split card (http://magiccards.info/query?q=green+sun%27s+zenith&v=card&s=cname) seems too good not to play.

[Seraphix]

list

I can totally get behind cutting maindeck FoWs for a bigger SFM+TNN plan with green support guys, but I have to think he always wants to see Hierarch, to the point that a Hierarch (http://magiccards.info/query?q=dryad+arbor)/Disenchant (http://magiccards.info/query?q=qasali+pridemage)/Crypt (http://magiccards.info/query?q=scavenging+ooze&v=card&s=cname)/Expedition Map (http://magiccards.info/query?q=knight+of+the+reliquary&v=card&s=cname)/Leviathan (http://magiccards.info/query?q=knight+of+the+reliquary&v=card&s=cname) split card (http://magiccards.info/query?q=green+sun%27s+zenith&v=card&s=cname) seems too good not to play.

Interesting list, with only 4 accelerants, Snapcasters, 1 basic, and no Dazes or Zeniths it reminds me more of Deathblade than classic Bant. Honestly, If you're going to skip Daze and Zeniths I'm not sure why you wouldn't play Deathblade instead. Bant's biggest advantage in my opinion is being able to leverage a mana advantage in a way other Blue goodstuff decks can't, and that capability certainly looks diminished in this list. This is a solid result though, so maybe there's something here. Playing more dudes and moving Forces to the side looks like a fine choice right now to me at least.

[HSCK]

That build looks interesting for sure, lack of Zenith is a bit odd. I think there are enough unfair decks I'd probably still want FoW somewhere, but I haven't tried out just Pierces yet. Not sure how much I've ever wanted Snapcaster in any build of Bant. What I've really wanted to try is Zenith, Cavern, and Jace VP in some sort of shell.

[anwei]

That build looks interesting for sure, lack of Zenith is a bit odd. I think there are enough unfair decks I'd probably still want FoW somewhere, but I haven't tried out just Pierces yet. Not sure how much I've ever wanted Snapcaster in any build of Bant. What I've really wanted to try is Zenith, Cavern, and Jace VP in some sort of shell.

He did have Forces in the board.
I agree, concerning Snapcaster, and would think that he'd find it even worse in this build than many. The 3-drop slot is too hotly contested on Bant's curve, with too many powerful creatures available, to be happy with a 2/1. And flash isn't particularly useful, without much instant-speed interaction.

[streetMage]

Hi, first time posting on here, don't get much Legacy where I'm at, but have been on this Bant list for awhile.

Started off as Maverick but gave up on (Green Sun, Qasali, KOTR) to have better edge against combo with countermagic. I made the deck more blue for Force of Will, Vendilion Clique and True-Name.

I like the eight dork version since Noble Hierach and Deathrite are virtually planeswalkers.
Deathrite provides reach and life gain, while Noble in addition to colors provides the pump effect.
I also love the tempo play of t1 dork, turn 2 wasteland opponent and cast sfm.

Latest update was putting the Sylvan Library main.

Lands (20)
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Bayou
1 Polluted Delta
1 Karakas
1 Forest

Creatures (19)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells (17)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Ponder
1 Council's Judgement

Artifacts (3)
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Enchantments (1)
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15)
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Rest In Peace
1 Path to Exile
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan Grip
1 Containment Priest
1 Grafdigger's Cage

[maharis]

@ Krouti's deck: I don't think SCM is so bad, we are starved for removal and it can be a 5th STP or extra Brainstorm/counterspell in a pinch. I don't get not running GSZ though, it seems like he just ran extras-but-not-quite-4-ofs his bullets, which gets awkward... But he did get 9th out of 80-ish people so hey. I just prefer to have more t1 plays like GSZ for Arbor and Ponder.

streetMage -- I am intrigued by the 8 dork approach, but I definitely could see wanting to fit in GSZ package including Knight to get your Karakas. I've tested Geist and found it lacking as well, but it can be fun when it works. And yes, Sylvan Library is the truth.

[streetMage]

Has anyone tinkered with Collected Company in Bant? It seems to me like being able to instantly grab 2 creatures off the top for 1 card would give this deck the card advantage it needs to hang with the midrange and control decks.This guy did: http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/223417


streetMage -- I am intrigued by the 8 dork approach, but I definitely could see wanting to fit in GSZ package including Knight to get your Karakas. I've tested Geist and found it lacking as well, but it can be fun when it works. And yes, Sylvan Library is the truth.Yea, Glenn Jones talks about the 8 dorks approach here: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27634_Bant-GeistDeathNemesisBlade-dec.html

Usually, with my first Green Sun I was always searching for a mana dork, with all my UU mana requirements and the blue cards required for force of will, green sun just became redundant. The card is powerful and if TNN or Geist were green I'd run it. Geist can be lacking especially against other fair decks but he is immune to the -1/-1 effects and gets decent boosts from hierarchs. He's done some work and is the beater of choice against combo.

[Plm]

Hi guys,

I have a big tourney coming this week end and I plan to take bant blade.

I'm on the 8 dorks plan with a flurry of one of's and some ponder to keep things smooth.



4 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

3 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Envelop
1 Spell Snare

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Forest

SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 gaddock teeg

Envelop against terminus/vision/infernal tutor/natural order.
Spell snare against golgari charm/goyf/counterbalance/mystic.
Sylvan instead of the 4th ponder because of the synergy with batterskull and to have some CA against miracle.
Echoing truth is the panic button, works well against choke/bloodmoon/chalice (any non land, non creature permanents), also nice against token.

19 lands : 8 fetchs, 2 basics, 2 black duals (for deathrite but also for the sideboard options), only 3 wastelands because the mana is already shitty as hell as it is. Polluted instead of other blue fetch so I can fetch bayou, heath so I have 6 way to fetch my forest.

European sideboard, most cards are good against many match up, (ooze vs thresh but also vs grave,deck, decay as a anticounterbalance tool that is good vs tempo...) jack of all trade:laugh: the meta isn't a thing in geneva. (last year I came with 5 cards in my side for the wikingfuneral match up, they were 2 players out of 80, so I 've stopped bothering with too tight a sideboard)

[maharis]

Took bant back out again today to a 4-2 finish good for 12th out of about 40. Quick phone report:

4 hierarch
3 stoneforge
3 TNN
2 kotr
1 pridemage
1 scooze
1 clique

4 brainstorm
4 force
4 stp
3 daze
3 GSZ
2 jace tms
1 sylvan
1 jitte
1 batterskull

4 misty
4 Heath
3 wasteland
3 Trop
2 tundra
1 savannah
1 Karakas
1 dryad arbor
1 forest
1 island

2 meddling Mage
2 EE
1 Flusterstorm
1 spell snare
1 envelop
1 obstinate baloth
1 containment priest
1 Tormod's crypt
1 krosan grip
1 gaddock teeg
1 pithing needle
1 life from the loam

Bug delver 1-2
Merfolk 2-1
Grixis delver 2-1
12post 2-1
Merfolk 1-2
D&T 2-0

Top 8 at this event was:
Reanimator
Merfolk
Miracles
D&T
RG lands
BUG delver
TES
sneak & show

Prize was duals to top 4, store credit down to 12th (phew) and boosters to 16.

[maharis]

Bueller?

Ran it back last night. 1-2-1, which obv isn't great, but there were some encouraging results:

1. UW Landstill 1-1 draw, not a common matchup and this particular player's brew was especially durdly (energy field/RIP/Helm as additional wincons). Fun match (no sarcasm, I love long, grindy games). Generally think we are favored if they don't have energy field because we can get in under Standstill with ramp and wasteland their Factories.

2. RG lands 2-1 win, he was on Molten Vortex instead of Punishing Fire which I think actually makes this a better matchup for us, since you can always name Loam with the first meddling mage postboard and just counter the enchantment. Won game 1 after swordsing Marit Lage, lost game 2 because I had no instant speed interaction with it, won game 3 with Mage on Loam.

3. Merfolk 0-2 loss, same player I lost to in the duals tournament, just a really tough matchup that I hope to not see much of elsewhere

4. UR delver 1-2 loss, lost the die roll and got Priced out in the first game, won second game fairly easily, third game was exceedingly frustrating because I died with 4 lands, 2 equipments, and daze in my hand after mulling to hierarch/daze/brainstorm and lands and bottoming a land, then drawing a daze, then brainstorming into 3 lands, then drawing equips back to back. As long as I don't do that, deck is fine.

[Qweerios]

What cards from the deck would you replace for it and how many creatures do you think to hit on average, given the creature count of this deck..?

Most builds seem to run between 14 and 18 creatures as is. Odds are, you often won't hit more then 1 creature @ CMC 3 or less per 4 cards you look at (as long as you don't replace any creatures with CCs. If you do, that number goes down even more). Might as well just play that creature at sorcery speed without spending the extra mana on it.

Seriously, Collected Company does not have a place in Legacy. Anywhere.

Me and my buddy have been brewing/testing this Bant deck:


Bant Company

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Looter Il-Kor
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Aven Mindcensor

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Collected Company

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
1 Forest

2 Vendilion Clique
2 Orzhov Pontiff
3 Meddling Mage
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace


The deck is solid and has phenomenal options in many matchups. 20 creatures is enough to milk CoCo and that card is all you need to get ahead against a midrange or control deck when things don't go your way. We started off with 3 copies but it would often be clunky or unecessary for a given matchup.

18 blue cards is the minimum to support FoW so we had to find some good blue creatures to fill in the blanks. A pair of Cliques were originally in the main but we needed 2-drops to really smooth out the curve. In a goldfish situation, having good 3drops is great but in a real match where dorks get bolted, wastelands are fired left and right, delvers need plowing, and Dazes arise, 3drops ofen become stranded or suboptimal. Looter is simply an amazing piece of synergy in this deck because it fixes the curve, the creature count, the blue count, and fills its role as unblockable equipment carrier, exalted beater, and provides some great card quality (especially with LftL). Seeing one is a blessing but having multiples provides diminishing returns so 2 copies was the right number.

I am a huge proponent of Green Sun's Zenith but I simply don't believe it to be better than Deathrite. I don't want to get into why it is that way for this deck so I will just iterate some of the main perks of having that card around:
-more aggresive deck
-fast and efficient GY hate
-less vulnerability to -1/-1 wrath effects
-additional life gain
-Abrupt Decay is an essential SB card in Legacy nowadays IMO
-Orzhov Pontiff shores up some bad matchups

Last but not least, we wanted to maximize the elements of disruption. Given that the deck will likely have mana advantage, playing 4 Wastelands and 4 Daze is a no-brainer and really allows the pressure to pile on. Nemesis being the ideal 3drop for this deck we felt we needed 1-2 more evasive 3 drops to really push our mana advantage. Cliques proved better as a SB card having minimal impact with her recycling ability and her legendary status making Karakas into an unwanted conondrum. Aven Mindcensor presented itself as a perfect fit mainly to supplement the land denial plan and provide some fringe disruption against some dreaded cards such as Stoneforge, GSZ, Crop Rotation, Entomb, and Infernal Tutor mainly. If I were to include a 21st creature, I would opt for a second Mindcensor given some similarities with Looter.

[Seraphix]

Me and my buddy have been brewing/testing this Bant deck:

list

The deck is solid and has phenomenal options in many matchups. 20 creatures is enough to milk CoCo and that card is all you need to get ahead against a midrange or control deck when things don't go your way. We started off with 3 copies but it would often be clunky or unecessary for a given matchup.

18 blue cards is the minimum to support FoW so we had to find some good blue creatures to fill in the blanks. A pair of Cliques were originally in the main but we needed 2-drops to really smooth out the curve. In a goldfish situation, having good 3drops is great but in a real match where dorks get bolted, wastelands are fired left and right, delvers need plowing, and Dazes arise, 3drops ofen become stranded or suboptimal. Looter is simply an amazing piece of synergy in this deck because it fixes the curve, the creature count, the blue count, and fills its role as unblockable equipment carrier, exalted beater, and provides some great card quality (especially with LftL). Seeing one is a blessing but having multiples provides diminishing returns so 2 copies was the right number.

Last but not least, we wanted to maximize the elements of disruption. Given that the deck will likely have mana advantage, playing 4 Wastelands and 4 Daze is a no-brainer and really allows the pressure to pile on. Nemesis being the ideal 3drop for this deck we felt we needed 1-2 more evasive 3 drops to really push our mana advantage. Cliques proved better as a SB card having minimal impact with her recycling ability and her legendary status making Karakas into an unwanted conondrum. Aven Mindcensor presented itself as a perfect fit mainly to supplement the land denial plan and provide some fringe disruption against some dreaded cards such as Stoneforge, GSZ, Crop Rotation, Entomb, and Infernal Tutor mainly. If I were to include a 21st creature, I would opt for a second Mindcensor given some similarities with Looter.

Mindcensor is a great card but I think its hard to find the right shell to play it in Legacy these days.

Do you think Collected Company is stronger than a 4 CC PW against other midrange or control decks, and if so then why?



Bueller?



I'm currently playing this pretty "stock" list, with unimpressive results though. I'm thinking of taking a configuration with more men and Forces in the side for a spin.

4x Hierarch
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Stoneforge
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x QPM
2x Knight
2x True-Name Nemesis
1x Vendilion Clique

3x GSZ
4x Brainstorm
4x Plow
1x Ponder
1x Spell Pierce
3x Daze
3x Force of Will
2x Jace

9x Fetchland
3x Trop
2x Tundra
1x Savannah
1x Karakas
3x Wasteland
1x each Basic

SB: 1x Force of Will
SB: 1x Flusterstorm
SB: 1x Spell Pierce
SB: 1x G. Teeg
SB: 1x Path to Exile
SB: 1x QPM
SB: 1x Krosan Grip
SB: 2x Containment Priest
SB: 1x Bojuka Bog
SB: 1x Crop Rotation
SB: 1x Engineered Explosives
SB: 1x Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1x Pithing Needle
SB: 1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

[Jon]

http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/21570#303896


This was the last list I played, ignore the SB. Deck felt pretty sweet. I may rip it out for the next IQ in the area.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[maharis]

Something that may solve Qweerios' blue creature problem and Seraphix & my stalling out problem is Trygon Predator. It's GSZ-able and Force-pitchable and practically all upside on the field, especially with equipment/exalted. Getting bolted sucks but against most Bolt decks it's a safe side-out (or a card you just play in the board.)

It would've been very useful in three of my four matchups yesterday and all for different reasons -- against landstill would've prevented him from getting a lock on me, against lands could've nuked his enchantments or just blocked marit lage when i needed a turn, and against merfolk could've gone over the top of his team to hit jitte/vial and carry my own equips.

I also thought about Scryb Ranger for the same reason plus Knight/TNN utility but ultimately I think Predator is better more often. I have a couple slots it could fit in and I'm going to give it a shot.

[Seraphix]

Something that may solve Qweerios' blue creature problem and Seraphix & my stalling out problem is Trygon Predator. It's GSZ-able and Force-pitchable and practically all upside on the field, especially with equipment/exalted. Getting bolted sucks but against most Bolt decks it's a safe side-out (or a card you just play in the board.)

It would've been very useful in three of my four matchups yesterday and all for different reasons -- against landstill would've prevented him from getting a lock on me, against lands could've nuked his enchantments or just blocked marit lage when i needed a turn, and against merfolk could've gone over the top of his team to hit jitte/vial and carry my own equips.

I also thought about Scryb Ranger for the same reason plus Knight/TNN utility but ultimately I think Predator is better more often. I have a couple slots it could fit in and I'm going to give it a shot.

I've wanted to try Trygon Predator since 2014 but have yet to. It has an interesting combination of characteristics, primarily as you note both pitching to Force and being GSZ-able, but ultimately strikes me as too low-impact for its cost. I am leery about playing too many 3-drops, and Knight, TNN, and Clique all look more appealing to me. Again, this is with zero testing, so it could be better than it looks.

I've thought about the inclusion of Scryb Ranger (in lieu of Scavenging Ooze maindeck) but I worry most Bant lists don't have the critical mass of interactions to break her like Maverick does. Pseudo-Vigilant TNN is interesting though.

[maharis]

I've wanted to try Trygon Predator since 2014 but have yet to. It has an interesting combination of characteristics, primarily as you note both pitching to Force and being GSZ-able, but ultimately strikes me as too low-impact for its cost. I am leery about playing too many 3-drops, and Knight, TNN, and Clique all look more appealing to me. Again, this is with zero testing, so it could be better than it looks.

I've thought about the inclusion of Scryb Ranger (in lieu of Scavenging Ooze maindeck) but I worry most Bant lists don't have the critical mass of interactions to break her like Maverick does. Pseudo-Vigilant TNN is interesting though.

I guess it comes down to what are our problem cards/matchups. While we can be OK against Delver decks, for example, simply by being bigger and having a better late game, the actual card Delver of Secrets can be a pain, especially if it flips turn 2 on the play and they back it up with enough mana denial/disruption. Both of these cards can actually block it whereas most lists tend to only have one clique (which is itself easier mana-denied with Wasteland). Game 1 having a Delver blocker even if you end up boarding it out for EE or whatever in game 2 can be the difference in a match. (And you probably keep Scryb Ranger in).

And having played vs. Merfolk 3 times now I can definitely say that we need to have some sort of GSZ-able evasion to have any chance. Either card is fine here because of Scryb's pro-blue (meaningful if you can Knight away all your islands and block), but Predator is more of a clock on its own and can nuke their artifacts. Elves and merfolk are such a problem I'm seriously close to jamming Teferi's Moat in the 75.... if it was 2WU I definitely would.

I definitely think I'm going to give it a shot, going down to 2 TNN or 1 knight or 1 jace, or cutting my ponder. Sylvan Library stays though, that's non-negotiable.

[Seraphix]

...

And having played vs. Merfolk 3 times now I can definitely say that we need to have some sort of GSZ-able evasion to have any chance. Either card is fine here because of Scryb's pro-blue (meaningful if you can Knight away all your islands and block), but Predator is more of a clock on its own and can nuke their artifacts. Elves and merfolk are such a problem I'm seriously close to jamming Teferi's Moat in the 75.... if it was 2WU I definitely would.

I definitely think I'm going to give it a shot, going down to 2 TNN or 1 knight or 1 jace, or cutting my ponder. Sylvan Library stays though, that's non-negotiable.

I once had the brilliant idea of building a Teferi's Moat/Shifting Sky "combo" deck :cool: . Humility or Magus of the Moat is probably the card you are actually looking for though. Elves can't really answer either once they are in play (unless they have Grip in the 75 in the case of Humility, which is pretty unusual). However, drawing and resolving a 4-mana, sorcery-speed sideboard card against them is a bit of a grim prospect, particularly when neither are sure things-they can still kill you with 1/1s or drain you out with Deathrite.

[Qweerios]

Mindcensor is a great card but I think its hard to find the right shell to play it in Legacy these days.

Do you think Collected Company is stronger than a 4 CC PW against other midrange or control decks, and if so then why?

Mana acceleration and Wastelands is probably as good of a shell as it gets for Mindcensor.

CoCo is definitely better than Jace because the card is more in line with our strategy. You need 3 turns with a Jace to generate the same board position as a CoCo. Against most decks (except maybe Miracles), CoCo is more efficient, harder to deal with, and ends the game in a timely fashion.

Concerning Trygon Predator, I think it is a good card. However, I would rather have Qasali Pridemage over it any day. Less mana and better abilities overall makes Pridemage the clear winner in my book.

[Khamul]

I'm quite surprised that there's been no discussion about this one yet:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19187&iddeck=145837

Andrea Boccia nearly took down Nebraska's War with his unconventional list. I've talked with him a bit, tested the Deck over christmas, and now I'm rocking it myself. Too say it in Andrea Boccia's words: "It's evolved from Maverick, being tuned to kill Miracles, because I hate Miracles". He lost in the Top 4 to Storm, which is, obviously, a bad Matchup.

Some choices may look odd, and this deck certainly has its weaknesses, but I advise everyone to play this Deck first before theorizing about what "could be done better". The only thing I was unhappy with was the 4th Clique - it came around way too often, and I was uncomfortable with so many 3-drops. That's why I switched it for a Sylvan Library in the Main.

For the rest... Yeah, the Deck's got weaknesses to -1/-1 Effects and Blood Moon. Those are things one has to live with. Miracles CAN lock you out with Countertop and Blood Moon Games 2 and 3, and Night of Soul's Betrayal is a huge pain.
Thalia without Wastelands DOES sound strange, but she's still doing great work in screwing over cantrips and Storm. Repeatable, uncounterable Venser and Clique is also something Miracle lists have been trying out, and gives the Deck a great lategame. And 4 Caverns are just great. Sometimes they're just Manafixing - yes the manabase is a bit strange, but it works. But most of the time, the caverns just flat out win games by powering out uncounterable Threats. Try it and you will love it.

I'd say the deck plays a lot like Death & Taxes, without the Mana Denial plan - but on the other hand it's not that dependent on Vial, either.

Has anyone else played this Deck and got some experience with it? I believe it's not that badly situated in the Meta - as long as Eldrazi won't become that great of a Force.

[Mirrislegend]

I'm quite surprised that there's been no discussion about this one yet:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19187&iddeck=145837

Andrea Boccia nearly took down Nebraska's War with his unconventional list. I've talked with him a bit, tested the Deck over christmas, and now I'm rocking it myself. Too say it in Andrea Boccia's words: "It's evolved from Maverick, being tuned to kill Miracles, because I hate Miracles". He lost in the Top 4 to Storm, which is, obviously, a bad Matchup.

To be honest, this list confuses me. I like the concept, but I don't see how it handles the listed goals: If you're trying to beat Miracles, where are the Gaddock Teegs? If you're weak to combo, why does the creature oriented deck only play 2 hatebears in the sideboard?

[Khamul]

To be honest, this list confuses me. I like the concept, but I don't see how it handles the listed goals: If you're trying to beat Miracles, where are the Gaddock Teegs?

Two words: Monastery Mentor

No, now seriously: Gaddock Teeg is a very narrow card. It's good against Miracles and Storm, but bad against everything else. This Deck already doesn't care that much about Force of Will, and Clique and Thalia are just better in an open meta (read: against everything actually playing Creatures). Teeg doesn't even shut everything up. Without Mother of Runes, Teeg just dies to a StP at the end of your turn, and then Miracles can still slam Jace/Entreat without problems. You can at least replay the Flash creatures at your opponent's turn to snipe Jace/Entreat.

What wins games against Miracles is Cavern + Karakas + Clique or Venser. They just get through, repeatedly, and wreck Miracles.


If you're weak to combo, why does the creature oriented deck only play 2 hatebears in the sideboard?

3 Flusterstorm. They get Combo Decks on a different angle, because they're already very likely to board in Creature hate. And what's a likely thing for storm to board out against a Hatebear Deck? Duress.

[anwei]

UNKOMAN has 5x MTGO 5-0's with this list (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-03-02):

2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis

1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Karakas
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

1 Abrupt Decay
2 Containment Priest
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Meddling Mage
1 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique

[Water_Wizard]

UNKOMAN has 5x MTGO 5-0's with this list (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-03-02):

2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis

1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Karakas
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

1 Abrupt Decay
2 Containment Priest
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Meddling Mage
1 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique

I've been following this too - it surprises me how well he/she is doing. If you search, there is an updated list with a higher blue count plus some changes to the sideboard. The list above, the blue count {seventeen} is too low to support four FOW - need twenty-one blue for four FOW - his/her new list add V. Clique for KotR, which in my opinion, makes it better. I'm also not a fan of the Gideon, if you change him to a third Jace or a ponder, you get your blue count to twenty-one cards. I also like swapping a Wasteland for a Karakas not that you have three Cliques.

I'm amazed at how well this player has done- he/she is winning MTGO Legacy Leagues at a quicker rate than anyone else. However, I will note that there is no limit to how many times a player can enter a league in one day {could be multiple people playing one account or someone who drops after losing their first match, idk, could be someone who plays a lot} Could also be someone super good who came up with a nasty BANT list. It's interesting that there isn't more BANT being played.

[Artlee]

I've been following this too - it surprises me how well he/she is doing. If you search, there is an updated list with a higher blue count plus some changes to the sideboard. The list above, the blue count {seventeen} is too low to support four FOW - need twenty-one blue for four FOW - his/her new list add V. Clique for KotR, which in my opinion, makes it better. I'm also not a fan of the Gideon, if you change him to a third Jace or a ponder, you get your blue count to twenty-one cards. I also like swapping a Wasteland for a Karakas not that you have three Cliques.


Your suggestion, as I read it, is to take the deck and make it almost stock Bant, which has not been showing results recently on mtgo. Also, there is already Karakas in his main.

What I like about this deck is the aggro approach game 1. I could imagine Gideon is good against Terminus. The 4th colour comes at the cost of basic lands, but with 4 Noble Hierarchs and 2 Deathrite Shamans it might not be such a problem. On the other side you get access to Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman activations.

I think the sideboard also reflects the aggro based game 1, as it only contains Path to Exile, Elspeth and Abrupt decay (to some extend) as the obvious sideboard options against aggro. The rest looks like cards meant for either control or combo.

[Wub]

I've been following this too - it surprises me how well he/she is doing. If you search, there is an updated list with a higher blue count plus some changes to the sideboard. The list above, the blue count {seventeen} is too low to support four FOW - need twenty-one blue for four FOW - his/her new list add V. Clique for KotR, which in my opinion, makes it better. I'm also not a fan of the Gideon, if you change him to a third Jace or a ponder, you get your blue count to twenty-one cards. I also like swapping a Wasteland for a Karakas not that you have three Cliques.

I'm amazed at how well this player has done- he/she is winning MTGO Legacy Leagues at a quicker rate than anyone else. However, I will note that there is no limit to how many times a player can enter a league in one day {could be multiple people playing one account or someone who drops after losing their first match, idk, could be someone who plays a lot} Could also be someone super good who came up with a nasty BANT list. It's interesting that there isn't more BANT being played.

I recently acquired the cards as well on mtgo and managed to get one day of leagues in before I had to leave for vacation, went 5-0 once and 3-2 once. My one loss was to brainstorm revealing 2 lands vs eldrazi, then after shuffling drawing land, land, daze, land, daze, land, at which point I was obviously just dead, and the other was BUG landstill where I didn't plow a creeping tar pit when I needed to, I think this one was winnable. I really want to get back to playing the deck but I can't get on modo from here so I have to wait until after spring break :(

I'm not entirely sold on cutting Kotr. It is really good game 1 against light removal, and unless eldrazi has endbringer it walls them pretty hard. The number of blue cards for force is a problem, at 17 I keep having to pitch my one TNN/jace to counter something and end up stuck without enough threats, so the appeal to replacing them with blue cards is definitely a factor. I've been looking at other creatures, if any, that I would want to try and run, and its a pretty small list. Clique is great versus anything slow, but really not fantastic against eldrazi which is a good portion of my matches. I might try some baleful strix (probably need another underground sea in main then too), dunno. Cant go shardless with daze, but maybe if I try a list without daze I could mess around with that. I have a week before I can play again so plenty of time to think things out.

The only other maindeck card I haven't really liked is gideon, but unkoman seems dedicated to keeping him in the list so I'll believe for now. Though one more mana, I really like the idea of nahiri, maybe sideboard. She seems a lot more threatening against miracles, blanking wear//tear while still churning out tokens.

[Water_Wizard]

Your suggestion, as I read it, is to take the deck and make it almost stock Bant, which has not been showing results recently on mtgo. Also, there is already Karakas in his main.

What I like about this deck is the aggro approach game 1. I could imagine Gideon is good against Terminus.

This is his most recent list {no Karakas}
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-03-06

I think Garruk Relentless is better than Gideon for pumping out tokens.

[anwei]

Your suggestion, as I read it, is to take the deck and make it almost stock Bant, which has not been showing results recently on mtgo. Also, there is already Karakas in his main.


This is a good point, and I agree with the sentiment that I'd rather be testing this list, unaltered, than making the changes I would typically make to a similar list.
However, I typically find Bant to be such a strong and well-balanced deck with toolbox-able haymakers that my tentative narrative is sometimes that Bant is (for whatever reason) unpopular in a metagame that has more in common with fashion trends than attempts to solve Standard. Perhaps very few people are actually running the deck, and this variant is not particularly tuned.

I wonder if the Cliques was a careful decision or testing something out. Knight is real good, and TNN+Equipment already gives several angles against Decay, so he's not as weak to it as my (typical) GSZ+Knight decks have been lately. Utilizing Knight without over-relying on her is a nice place to be.

I may also prefer Garruk, but I should probably buy a Gideon to make sure it's not what-I-own bias :) I can only imagine that following up after getting your board draw-step-terminus'd with a 5/5 swing in, rather than a 2/2 guy, is a sweet play.

[tescrin]

Currently I'm playing around with a weird bant list, trying to abuse Suppression Field since it looks quite good against Lands, D&T, Miracles, with free hate on fetches, wastelands, equips, DRS, walkers, and Top.

The Detention Spheres have been fluctuating to and from Pride-mages. The Spheres are extra game against a variety of things and a nice out + a great thing to toss to Force, but Pride mages are cool or something.. so I keep changing my mind. It was 3 QPM, then 2/1 split, then I just went all in as QPM is awkward to cast with the 3 Tundra (don't want to overload on fetches with SField.)

I'll be testing sometime in the next couple of days but Goldfishing at the moment looks pretty good; nearly an 87% keep rate, with mulligans being 77% and 73% keeps.

I figured I'd pipe up since I'm a fan of the TNN + Mindcensor plan. That said, I'm using Goyfs because they're easy to cast and not a 3-drop. I imagine I should drop a mindcensor and/or a sphere as I'm at 61 but I'll start by testing at 61 cuz i'm a scrub.


-14- (3 blue)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 True-Name Nemesis

-26 (19 blue)-
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Detention Sphere
(-7-)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Suppression Field

-21-
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains


The basic plan plays out that you tend to fetch early against someone you might Suppress, and you play your wastes delicately because of that as well; but I've found that wasting with two open mana is a fine EoT play if you have nothing better to do. Having 6 fetch hosers main that are T2 able should keep Daze more live than normal and the decks that SField hoses really badly don't tend to have removal for it (miracles, lands, D&T) until after SB.

Again, note that it hoses DRS/Lily decks in the same way as others, while making your own wastelands brutal (Say you open Fetch->Hierarch, then T2 Waste, Suppression Field. Your opp can't waste back and can't fetch, nor can they DRS for mana.)

If this card were ever legacy worthy, I'd say it's now, so I gotsa try trolling some folks.

Cheers!

[TLK]

Won my weekly local Legacy event using UNKOMAN's most recent list (with some minor tweaks to the board).

Round 1 vs RUG Delver:

Game 1 he floods a bit and my True-Name and Gideon tokens held his Mongoose at bay. Once I stabilized, Gideon attacking for 6 every turn (Exalted trigger) was enough to close it out. Never drew Gideon the rest of the tournament but he was awesome (and unexpected for my opponent) here.

Game 2 a timely RiP turns his Mongeese into 1/1s and True-Name + equipment seals the deal fairly quickly.

2-0, 1-0

Round 2 vs EsperBlade:

Game 1 is a long grindfest. An early Batterskull was key as I gained tons of life and was able to draw a lot of cards off Sylvan Library. True-Name again goes unanswered, and once it finds a piece of equipment I was able to close it out.

I lose a very close game 2, which was another grindfest. Instead of responding to a Ponder by StP his Spirit token (via Lingering Souls) equipped to a Batterskull, I let the Ponder resolve and he finds a Snapcaster to counter my StP. Mistake on my part.

We are pressed for time on Game 3, but I'm able to win on extra turns via Elspeth jumping my creatures.

2-1, 2-0

Round 3 vs Goblins:

I lose game 1 due to a swarm of Goblin tokens via Krenko. True-Name held back the team for a while, but I got overwhelmed once he went wide.

Game 2 I win via True-Name + Jitte. Just a disaster for the Goblins player.

Game 3 I'm able to equip Jitte to True-Name again, but he finds Tin-Street Hooligan to blow up the Jitte. DRS did a great job circumventing the Wasteland/Port barrage. True-Name stays back on defense as a Jace starts to fate seal every turn. I'm able to put up enough of a defense so that Jace ultimate wins me the game. There was a fairly large Zealous Persecution blowout in this game as well.

2-1, 3-0

I'm the only undefeated player at this point so my 4th round opponent concedes to me.

The deck was awesome. It made me remember why every now and then I come back to Bant and always do well with it. There didn't really seem to be a weak card in the main.

All stars: True-Name (nobody could do anything about him - he's so good when people aren't expecting him), Sylvan Library, Elspeth, equipment

Surprises: Gideon

4 Hierarch/2 DRS seemed like a good split. Exalted triggers actually came into play pretty often, and helped me win the Batterskull battle against EsperBlade.

[Seraphix]

What are people's thoughts on the Eldrazi matchup?

I played against it for the first time this week and pulled out the win but the games were close. Accelerating into Knight or True-Name is pretty solid. Equipment is ok too but they can mess it up (and Planeswalkers) with their Revokers.

Specifically, I'm wondering if its better to have dedicated artifact hate or Force of Will against them post-board (I can't have it both ways due to my Blue count). Chalice is pretty scary to me because Plow/Path/Brainstorm are important, not to mention its a disaster turn 1 if you're on the draw with a 1-mana accelerant in hand. Force has the added benefit of also potentially answering a scary creature, but can get blown up by Cavern. If I decide I want Force on the draw, I have to keep Daze in, which may not be great. I did find Daze surprisingly good against a deck with a pile of sol lands though, since they often tap out or have lands that can't pay for it.

[fghtffyrdmns]

Won my weekly local Legacy event using UNKOMAN's most recent list (with some minor tweaks to the board).

Round 1 vs RUG Delver:

Game 1 he floods a bit and my True-Name and Gideon tokens held his Mongoose at bay. Once I stabilized, Gideon attacking for 6 every turn (Exalted trigger) was enough to close it out. Never drew Gideon the rest of the tournament but he was awesome (and unexpected for my opponent) here.

Game 2 a timely RiP turns his Mongeese into 1/1s and True-Name + equipment seals the deal fairly quickly.

2-0, 1-0

Round 2 vs EsperBlade:

Game 1 is a long grindfest. An early Batterskull was key as I gained tons of life and was able to draw a lot of cards off Sylvan Library. True-Name again goes unanswered, and once it finds a piece of equipment I was able to close it out.

I lose a very close game 2, which was another grindfest. Instead of responding to a Ponder by StP his Spirit token (via Lingering Souls) equipped to a Batterskull, I let the Ponder resolve and he finds a Snapcaster to counter my StP. Mistake on my part.

We are pressed for time on Game 3, but I'm able to win on extra turns via Elspeth jumping my creatures.

2-1, 2-0

Round 3 vs Goblins:

I lose game 1 due to a swarm of Goblin tokens via Krenko. True-Name held back the team for a while, but I got overwhelmed once he went wide.

Game 2 I win via True-Name + Jitte. Just a disaster for the Goblins player.

Game 3 I'm able to equip Jitte to True-Name again, but he finds Tin-Street Hooligan to blow up the Jitte. DRS did a great job circumventing the Wasteland/Port barrage. True-Name stays back on defense as a Jace starts to fate seal every turn. I'm able to put up enough of a defense so that Jace ultimate wins me the game. There was a fairly large Zealous Persecution blowout in this game as well.

2-1, 3-0

I'm the only undefeated player at this point so my 4th round opponent concedes to me.

The deck was awesome. It made me remember why every now and then I come back to Bant and always do well with it. There didn't really seem to be a weak card in the main.

All stars: True-Name (nobody could do anything about him - he's so good when people aren't expecting him), Sylvan Library, Elspeth, equipment

Surprises: Gideon

4 Hierarch/2 DRS seemed like a good split. Exalted triggers actually came into play pretty often, and helped me win the Batterskull battle against EsperBlade.

Great rundown of the deck. I'm in the process of moving from modern to legacy and this is one of two decks I'm eyeing. Looking at Esper death/stone blade decks as well as Bant. I may build both as they share a lot of the same cards.

With that said, what is your opinion on Knight in this deck? I was looking over Unkomans lists and I see he is running a version with Knight/Karakas and another that drops the Knights in favor of a pair of Vendillion and the full set of True Name. The only utility I see for Knight is Karakas and Wasteland and I'm wondering if that might be a bit narrow to warrant the inclusion. I'm also new to legacy so I don't yet know all the decks and matchups that well to warrant the smaller card choice decisions between 2-3 card differences in the deck such as this.

[TLK]

Great rundown of the deck. I'm in the process of moving from modern to legacy and this is one of two decks I'm eyeing. Looking at Esper death/stone blade decks as well as Bant. I may build both as they share a lot of the same cards.

With that said, what is your opinion on Knight in this deck? I was looking over Unkomans lists and I see he is running a version with Knight/Karakas and another that drops the Knights in favor of a pair of Vendillion and the full set of True Name. The only utility I see for Knight is Karakas and Wasteland and I'm wondering if that might be a bit narrow to warrant the inclusion. I'm also new to legacy so I don't yet know all the decks and matchups that well to warrant the smaller card choice decisions between 2-3 card differences in the deck such as this.

Knight is one of my favorite creatures in the history of the game, so I'd love any chance to run him. However, it won't be at the expense of True-Name, which is arguably the deck's best card. Cutting any number of TNN and the 2 Clique means the blue card count for Force of Will reduces. Karakas might not be worth the inclusion of Knight, as much as it pains me to say it. That being said, I'm not sure Clique is the right card for that slot, either. It felt rather weak whenever I played it. I'm currently considering Geist of Saint Traft for that slot, as it's another hard-to-answer threat alongside TNN, and it's blue. It seems great with Hierarch and equipment.

[fghtffyrdmns]

Knight is one of my favorite creatures in the history of the game, so I'd love any chance to run him. However, it won't be at the expense of True-Name, which is arguably the deck's best card. Cutting any number of TNN and the 2 Clique means the blue card count for Force of Will reduces. Karakas might not be worth the inclusion of Knight, as much as it pains me to say it. That being said, I'm not sure Clique is the right card for that slot, either. It felt rather weak whenever I played it. I'm currently considering Geist of Saint Traft for that slot, as it's another hard-to-answer threat alongside TNN, and it's blue. It seems great with Hierarch and equipment.

I love knight as well, and I ran it in my 4c gifts ungiven deck in modern. It was a beast, one of my favorite cards as well. I love Geist too, however I'm not sure the 2 toughness gets it through very well (however this is improved if you run Karakas somewhat as you can attack and keep the angel token, again, a bit cute though and probably not worth the hassle).

I'm tempted to try a copy of rafique due to the double strike clause. Combos well with elspeth to throw him over the fence with flying and a +3 pump, plus his double strike. Also cute, but hits for 14 and probably ends the game if he gets through.

[maharis]

What are people's thoughts on the Eldrazi matchup?

I played against it for the first time this week and pulled out the win but the games were close. Accelerating into Knight or True-Name is pretty solid. Equipment is ok too but they can mess it up (and Planeswalkers) with their Revokers.

Specifically, I'm wondering if its better to have dedicated artifact hate or Force of Will against them post-board (I can't have it both ways due to my Blue count). Chalice is pretty scary to me because Plow/Path/Brainstorm are important, not to mention its a disaster turn 1 if you're on the draw with a 1-mana accelerant in hand. Force has the added benefit of also potentially answering a scary creature, but can get blown up by Cavern. If I decide I want Force on the draw, I have to keep Daze in, which may not be great. I did find Daze surprisingly good against a deck with a pile of sol lands though, since they often tap out or have lands that can't pay for it.

I suppose like all stompy matchups this just comes down to whether or not they get a good hand or not. We can beat chalice 1 better than most decks because of QPM and GSZ. Actually, of all Brainstorm decks, I feel like Bant is the best positioned against hateful cards like Chalice or Thalia/Thorn because of more creatures, basic lands, and ramp.

WRT force i guess it depends on how confident you are you can keep them off of Cavern of Souls. Obviously we have Wasteland and Knight. Force gets dead really fast if they don't play a Chalice on t1 right into it, if they have Cavern. Honestly might just be worth bringing in more stuff from the board and not leaning on the counters. Clique can be good against them since they don't have flyers and it can take them off something brutal. (Bonus points if you get them after an Eye activation). Then there's cards like Grip, Council's Judgment, Scooze that are all pretty good SB options in terms of just getting the game over.

[anwei]

With that said, what is your opinion on Knight in this deck? I was looking over Unkomans lists and I see he is running a version with Knight/Karakas and another that drops the Knights in favor of a pair of Vendillion and the full set of True Name. The only utility I see for Knight is Karakas and Wasteland and I'm wondering if that might be a bit narrow to warrant the inclusion. I'm also new to legacy so I don't yet know all the decks and matchups that well to warrant the smaller card choice decisions between 2-3 card differences in the deck such as this.

I think you're underestimating the card in the Legacy, both on-board and with wasteland. Very few decks run a zoo-like slew of creatures (like they might in Modern), so she can take over the board against most fair decks (especially Grixis/RUG Delver and I guess Eldrazi, but also Blade decks, Shardless until/unless they hit removal). Like TNN, there are certain match-ups where it's not that strong, but it's an unbeatable trump card in many matches, as a huge body, wasting them out of the game, and a beating against Depths/Reanimate/Show and Tell/GY decks (with bog, post-board), etc.


On other things:
- Geist has been great, in the past, in the hexproof lists, and it almost plays like infect when they don't hit a single big combo turn, only their removal is all dead. I typically ran 3 TNN/2 Geist/1 Clique alongside 8 dorks and the SFM package, and it was great when it was good and sometimes bad. That list plays tempo-y enough that I sometimes run 1-2 Stifle and get to keep my angels, which is a bonus.
- I have played (and liked) Rafiq as a GSZ target who pitches to FoW and lets TNN get in for 8 unblockable. If he was a 3/4, I think he'd see more play, but seeing your investment die to bolt is sad.
- I typically rebuild lists with a blue count <18, but would sometimes play 17, or 3 of them with 16/17 cards. In fair match-ups, trading out a copy of Force/Daze as a removal spell is fine, and typically eventually.


Actually, of all Brainstorm decks, I feel like Bant is the best positioned against hateful cards like Chalice or Thalia/Thorn because of more creatures, basic lands, and ramp.

This comports with my experience. I love getting the smug look that comes with some one slamming a Thalia or Thorn when I'm about to start pumping out Knights.

[TLK]

I've considered Rafiq as well, but I don't run GSZ, so I'm leaning away from including it. I may try Knight as a replacement for Clique.

[Wub]

I was toying around with the idea of Rafiq or Sublime archangel to replace Gideon, but the issue I really found is that its a 4 drop that gets no value if it eats StP at all. I'm okay with my hierarchs and drs trading with swords, but the more expensive creatures like TNN I'd really like some resilience to removal (granted, knight isn't any better on this front, but he is at least 1 cheaper). Gideon eats swords as well, but vs decks where you suspect the removal he can turn into a token machine instead and stay hidden.

[TLK]

TNN is already resilient to removal, and that's why I was thinking of Geist as TNN #5 and 6.

[Wub]

Geist is solid, but its particularly bad against eldrazi which are pretty common online right now. It cant swing into any of their creatures safely without exalted. Seems pretty good against other matchups though.

[TLK]

Surprisingly there are zero Eldrazi decks in my meta, which is why I'm highly considering it.

[fghtffyrdmns]

A couple of Bant lists continues to put up results on MTGO. I realize they are just dailies, but that's three in a row.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-03-12
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-03-11
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-03-10

I just need to pick up 3 tropical islands and I'll have everything I need to play bant in paper. I'm excited!

[anwei]

I played the Unkoman list at a 16-man thing and in semis to Eldrazi (also my loss in the Swiss). It seemed fine, but not magical or particularly optimized beyond many comparable lists I've played with varying numbers/options for dorks/GSZ and 3-drops. It still feels to me like 7-8 dorks is better and GSZ is worth it in Knight lists.

I will say, in every grindy round, and particularly against Eldrazi, I'd have way preferred having Retreats. Battling over artifacts, working to keep them off bigger mana, and then having them eventually get the last couple points in when I couldn't really stabilize was a bummer. Adding a combo is a fantastic way to over-the-top the midrange elements, and Knight/Retreat lines up well enough against prison decks.

[TLK]

I played the Unkoman list at a 16-man thing and in semis to Eldrazi (also my loss in the Swiss). It seemed fine, but not magical or particularly optimized beyond many comparable lists I've played with varying numbers/options for dorks/GSZ and 3-drops. It still feels to me like 7-8 dorks is better and GSZ is worth it in Knight lists.

I will say, in every grindy round, and particularly against Eldrazi, I'd have way preferred having Retreats. Battling over artifacts, working to keep them off bigger mana, and then having them eventually get the last couple points in when I couldn't really stabilize was a bummer. Adding a combo is a fantastic way to over-the-top the midrange elements, and Knight/Retreat lines up well enough against prison decks.

What would you cut for Retreats?

[Seraphix]

What would you cut for Retreats?

Squires, probably.

I haven't played UNKOMAN's list, but I'll echo anwei's sentiments in thinking 7-8 dorks with GSZ is where Bant truly wants to be.

[maharis]

I agree on GSZ as well. I think the best thing to take from the Unkoman list is that Bant Stoneblade can win you games. But topdecking Hierarchs 3-4 instead of a GSZ seems like it could be devastating in the later game. DRS is a better topdeck than Hierarch, so it's hard to argue that the split shouldn't be 4-2 in the other direction... and then that white should be your splash instead of black... and then you're playing Deathblade.

Also not sure how I feel about Gideon main. Double white is really hard. Though I like having more basics in the deck while they're just playing an extra Tundra instead of basic island.

I doubt I will play this exact 75 but Im looking a lot closer at Bant for an event this weekend. Expecting a lot of prisony decks like Lands, D&T, Eldrazi, MUD and I think this will be a better choice than Grixis. Just trying to decide whether I want to cave to the DRS plan or try something else. Definitely will have GSZ in my deck though.

[HSCK]

Eldrazi definitely seems to be a deck on the uptick, is SFM better or worse than GSZ? Is Brave Sir Robin a better alternative?

[KobeBryan]

SFM sucks against eldrazi

[tescrin]

To the earlier questions:
* I agree SFM is bad against Eldrazi the equips are all mediocre against them barring a Jitte with a boatload of counters.
* I think Geist is Garbage. Loses to every fair deck, then still does terrible against half of the combo decks (Reanimator, Elves, Dredge.) I had him boardstalled by Agents, Thalias, and other nuisances, making him a 3-mana delayed Fireblast


People who don't want to read about my nonsense; feel free to skip the below.

I've been happy against stuff with Suppression Fields and regular aggro, though I'm still figuring the shell out a bit. Core for me atm is:


4 Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mindcensor

3 S Field
4 Force, Brainstorm, Ponder, Swords

19-20 lands (2-3 wasteland)


Atm. I keep going between Mentor or TNN as my other beats. At the moment I'm trying something spicy:


-19-
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Shardless Agent
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Aven Mindcensor

-23-
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Suppression Field

-19 Lands-
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland



Mentor + Shardless angle seems too fun to not try for a couple locals. Should have alright game against Eldrazi as they're weak to tokens and the 6 Artifact Creatures can get Goyf to an acceptable reality-smasher blocker. Since they're weak to CA I figured I'd go this route since I've been hurting myself by Dazing with 3-drops in hand.

Suppression Field testing:
* Apparently it's brutal against Elves. If you land one you're pretty much safe.
* It's brutal against Miracles, as expected. I basically played by myself G2 of my Miracles match and we had a counterwar over it G3.
* Deck feels solid against RUG. Haven't gotten to play against other Delvers
* Weak against what you'd expect (Eldrazi, some combo decks [Was mooned out T1 and T2 of one of my matches with REB backup])
* Exceptional against D&T; but they have more outs to it than you think. My testing buddy had 2 Mangara with his Wisps
* Brewers around here have factories (I think 3 lists I played against), and it was brilliant.
* Indeed shoves nastiness against DRS decks with fetches. Quite enjoyed myself while my opponent looked at his terrible mana.

-Why Mentor, and Shardless?!-
Mentor. Well, TNN and Mentor are just different sides of the same coin. Removal resistant and reliable attackers. Mentor going wide seems more relevant at the moment IMO so I can leave dudes on the back field while swinging. Mentor's virtual CA against walkers and virtual vigilance against beatdown seems like it'll more of a "I win" Creature and less of a "Stop Losing" creature. Most of the time, TNN feels like a "stop losing" creature, so moving to something that can swing for 7 or more the first time you get the opportunity seems brilliant.

Shardless? Pumps goyfs, gets CA, strengthens me against counterspells, and gets free recalls, which in turn spew Mentor tokens. One of the other bits I like about it is it is 1/7 (14.4%) to hit a Suppression Field, giving me virtual extra copies against decks that it's good against. Shardless also goes wide for free, tosses to Force pretty well, and is generally a "who cares" roadblock that seems like it'd be ok against Eldrazi/Goyf/etc type beaters while you're getting Mentor, removal, or Fat online.

One other thing that Shardless never gets credit for is clearing your Brainstorm garbage. Did you get rid of lands or 3-drops? Sweet, just plop those on the bottom. Doing this without fetching is relevant for the angle I'm on (less activated abilities)

[Philipp2293]

A couple of Bant lists continues to put up results on MTGO. I realize they are just dailies, but that's three in a row.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-03-12
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-03-11
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-constructed-league-2016-03-10

I just need to pick up 3 tropical islands and I'll have everything I need to play bant in paper. I'm excited!

2 of these lists are mine (PhilippAut). I don't know why, but these lists just keep working for me. Not to bash the deck, but I can't put my finger on the reason it works so well. As it currently seems the online meta is very saturated with grave based strategies (see current legacy challenge results), against which this deck is very well positioned. Also, it has a pretty good Eldrazi MU.

@KobeBryan: Your statement is incorrect, SFM + TNN is insane against Eldrazi.

[KobeBryan]

2 of these lists are mine (PhilippAut). I don't know why, but these lists just keep working for me. Not to bash the deck, but I can't put my finger on the reason it works so well. As it currently seems the online meta is very saturated with grave based strategies (see current legacy challenge results), against which this deck is very well positioned. Also, it has a pretty good Eldrazi MU.

@KobeBryan: Your statement is incorrect, SFM + TNN is insane against Eldrazi.

TNN is good against Edlrazi, but even then, a knight and goyf is better.

SFM just sucks.

For you to set up TNN + SFM + Equips, you would be on turn 5 already, and most likely dead.

[anwei]

What would you cut for Retreats?

Well, that's a larger change than one cut, but trying SFM is a base list of something like:

22 lands (original list)
4 Dork (3/1 Hierarch/Bird or 4/0)
1 Pridemage
2 SFM
4 KotR
2* TNN
1* JTMS
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
4 Brainstorm
0* Ponder
0* Sylvan Library
3 Retreat
3* GSZ
4 StP
4* FoW
3* Daze
1* Spell Pierce

*s are iffier slots. 3rd TNN, 2nd JTMS, 4th Force, 3rd Daze, a Ponder, and the Pierce shift around as I'm right on 18 blue (my 4 FoW target), and would ideally like room for Sylvan and the 4th GSZ.

[KobeBryan]

Well, that's a larger change than one cut, but trying SFM is a base list of something like:

22 lands (original list)
4 Dork (3/1 Hierarch/Bird or 4/0)
1 Pridemage
2 SFM
4 KotR
2* TNN
1* JTMS
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
4 Brainstorm
0* Ponder
0* Sylvan Library
3 Retreat
3* GSZ
4 StP
4* FoW
3* Daze
1* Spell Pierce

*s are iffier slots. 3rd TNN, 2nd JTMS, 4th Force, 3rd Daze, a Ponder, and the Pierce shift around as I'm right on 18 blue (my 4 FoW target), and would ideally like room for Sylvan and the 4th GSZ.

you are breaking the old rule of pick 2 out of 1. FOW. 2. Blades. 3. GSZ

[anwei]

Naa, TNN broke the rule (cf. Black/Duke list).

The problem was that GSZ meant building a green-threat-dominated deck that didn't fit well with the SFMs and U count necessary to play force.

But with True-Name, the blue threats were good enough (and expensive enough) that green could be used more for acceleration and post-board toolboxing than muscle (i.e., 1-2 Knights main). Retreat furthers that, since GSZ is plenty valuable as Knights 5-7/8, I have super-minimal SFM, I can hardcast batterskull turn 3, and I don't need as much Jace to beat midrange board stalls.

[HSCK]

2 of these lists are mine (PhilippAut). I don't know why, but these lists just keep working for me. Not to bash the deck, but I can't put my finger on the reason it works so well. As it currently seems the online meta is very saturated with grave based strategies (see current legacy challenge results), against which this deck is very well positioned. Also, it has a pretty good Eldrazi MU.

@KobeBryan: Your statement is incorrect, SFM + TNN is insane against Eldrazi.

Kobe talks a lot about Bant but none of their lists have ever been good despite deriding everyone else's results and ideas.

[KobeBryan]

Kobe talks a lot about Bant but none their lists have ever been good despite deriding everyone else's results and ideas.

Oh ya. Because I haven't posted a deck list


To the earlier questions:
* I agree SFM is bad against Eldrazi the equips are all mediocre against them barring a Jitte with a boatload of counters.


HSCK - you fail again. Like usual.

[Asthereal]

Kobe does have a point, though somewhat poorly made.
Allright, I'll grant you, he made his point very VERY poorly...

Ditch the SFM package, and you have easy space for:
The +1 GSZ & +1 Library you wanted, and the bonus
+1 Daze (you want to draw these early, they become bad quickly), and
+1 Tarmogoyf (I like to have a CMC2 beater to Zenith for when low on mana),
or
+1-2 Ponder
+1-2 Spell Pierce
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Qasali Pridemage
+1-2 Path to Exile (if Eldrazi are big in your meta).

If you're big on the Retreat package, it makes perfect sense to drop the Blades.

[Jambak]

TNN is good against Edlrazi, but even then, a knight and goyf is better.

SFM just sucks.

For you to set up TNN + SFM + Equips, you would be on turn 5 already, and most likely dead.


I don't play bant on mtgo, I play esper, so maybe there is something I'm missing about that match up, but with esper SFM is insane vs eldrazi. Most games they can't beat a turn 2 sfm. Just like in bant, we have stp and fow back up to survive until the batterskull starts working. Eventually you equip a tnn or even the sfm itself with the batterskull.

I know it's a small sample size but I haven't lost to eldrazi in league play yet (7 or 8 matches vs eldrazi), and it's mostly on the back of SFM. That being said, I'm not playing bant, so I could be missing something from the bant match up, but I have a really hard time believing my best card vs them isn't good here too.

[Seraphix]

I agree on GSZ as well. I think the best thing to take from the Unkoman list is that Bant Stoneblade can win you games. But topdecking Hierarchs 3-4 instead of a GSZ seems like it could be devastating in the later game. DRS is a better topdeck than Hierarch, so it's hard to argue that the split shouldn't be 4-2 in the other direction... and then that white should be your splash instead of black... and then you're playing Deathblade.

Also not sure how I feel about Gideon main. Double white is really hard. Though I like having more basics in the deck while they're just playing an extra Tundra instead of basic island.

I doubt I will play this exact 75 but Im looking a lot closer at Bant for an event this weekend. Expecting a lot of prisony decks like Lands, D&T, Eldrazi, MUD and I think this will be a better choice than Grixis. Just trying to decide whether I want to cave to the DRS plan or try something else. Definitely will have GSZ in my deck though.

Lands is a pretty worrisome matchup for me. Its quite popular in my area so I might find room for a Tsabo's Web (doesn't hurt me too much-just Wasteland and Karakas) or a 2nd copy of Rest in Peace in the sideboard. Its hard to be proactive against a mana denial deck when our best threats cost a lot of mana (or are garbage in the case of Stoneforge Mystic) and our mana acceleration gets destroyed by Punishing Fire. Sometimes I can steal a game on the play by poorly imitating a Delver deck, but that requires a very specific draw to work out. This is one of the only matchups where I wish I was playing Deathrite Shaman.


To the earlier questions:
* I agree SFM is bad against Eldrazi the equips are all mediocre against them barring a Jitte with a boatload of counters.
* I think Geist is Garbage. Loses to every fair deck, then still does terrible against half of the combo decks (Reanimator, Elves, Dredge.) I had him boardstalled by Agents, Thalias, and other nuisances, making him a 3-mana delayed Fireblast


People who don't want to read about my nonsense; feel free to skip the below.

I've been happy against stuff with Suppression Fields and regular aggro, though I'm still figuring the shell out a bit. Core for me atm is:


Atm. I keep going between Mentor or TNN as my other beats. At the moment I'm trying something spicy:


Mentor + Shardless angle seems too fun to not try for a couple locals. Should have alright game against Eldrazi as they're weak to tokens and the 6 Artifact Creatures can get Goyf to an acceptable reality-smasher blocker. Since they're weak to CA I figured I'd go this route since I've been hurting myself by Dazing with 3-drops in hand.

Suppression Field testing:
* Apparently it's brutal against Elves. If you land one you're pretty much safe.
* It's brutal against Miracles, as expected. I basically played by myself G2 of my Miracles match and we had a counterwar over it G3.
* Deck feels solid against RUG. Haven't gotten to play against other Delvers
* Weak against what you'd expect (Eldrazi, some combo decks [Was mooned out T1 and T2 of one of my matches with REB backup])
* Exceptional against D&T; but they have more outs to it than you think. My testing buddy had 2 Mangara with his Wisps
* Brewers around here have factories (I think 3 lists I played against), and it was brilliant.
* Indeed shoves nastiness against DRS decks with fetches. Quite enjoyed myself while my opponent looked at his terrible mana.

...



Jitte is better than it looks vs Eldrazi. It kills Mimic and Revoker and its good at racing.

Suppression Field is pretty interesting, but its hard to slot into most lists because it hurts us a lot too. It might not be worth the effort to build around.

[maharis]

Lands is an interesting matchup. Keep in mind that we have:

1) Karakas -- keeps Marit Lage at bay
2) Knight -- they can't easily* kill it and it fetches the Wastelands we need to keep their combo off the board
3) True-Name Nemesis -- a card they just can't beat

Postboard, Meddling Mage on Punishing Fire* plus a decent amount of other disruption (Scooze, Tormod's Crypt, Wasteland) usually allows you to win before they can assemble their win. If you have a second Mage at this point, putting it on Loam makes their life exceedingly difficult. You can also Clique them after they dredge Loam (I just learned this the other day and I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it earlier).

*Now there are new Lands lists that don't run Punishing Fire, instead opting for Molten Vortex and Abrupt Decay. This makes Mage a little worse, because Vortex usually beats it to the field and turning off AD isn't that relevant. It's one of the reasons I'm thinking about running an additional Needle in my board (Needle has a lot of utility anyway in some of our bad matchups).

I'm looking at this build if I can make the tourney this weekend:

3 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Flooded Strand

2 Meddling Mage
2 Sunlance
2 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Snare
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Krosan Grip
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Explosives

Sunlance is to deal with opposing Delvers, Deathrites, Merfolk, Elves, stuff in Burn. Maybe PtE is better for hitting Mentor and Goyf and D&T but those usually aren't problems in the same way. Against the most common Mentor deck, I don't need extra removal; Goyf I can stonewall with a Knight or TNN, and we can usually go over the top of D&T as well. But the cards I mentioned have been the most dangerous, and I don't want to run a card that ramps in my Daze/Wasteland deck.

It's currently a 59-card mainboard. Flex spot could be Trygon Predator, Clique, or Ponder (has to be blue), and I may move the board around as well. Haven't decided if I want to be a Deathrite guy yet. If I decide against it those become a Hierarch and GSZ.

[tescrin]

Jitte is better than it looks vs Eldrazi. It kills Mimic and Revoker and its good at racing.

Suppression Field is pretty interesting, but its hard to slot into most lists because it hurts us a lot too. It might not be worth the effort to build around.

I agree, but I think it's hard to get Jitte going, especially when *revoker* is one of the targets :P. We're talking not getting Revoked or TKS'd with the earliest connect being T3 with a god hand (natural Jitte or SFM, mana Dude, not being wasted, and a 2-drop to equip to.) While it's not unlikely to get hands like this; I think it's unlikely to connect before T4/T5 when you're fighting TKS/Revoker while announcing you have Jitte, getting pounded by 4/4s and 5/5s (which can close the game T3), and this hand being uninteractive outside of FoW (which they could have cavern for.)

On SField, certainly. It means no SFM or equips, no DRS, no Knight, no Walkers, no Scooze, Top/Balance, playing carefully with Fetches and Brainstorms and Wastes. You can manage QPM, but I abandoned him pretty quick. The main issue I've been having is that too many 3-drops seem attractive, and if you go the Shardless route, you have to drop Daze. That said, I'll report back after more testing (Thursday, maybe a practice day before then.) I didn't mind TNN, but I think my version needs a CA generator to compete with weird things like Eldrazi.

It is nice that you can get hands like Noble->Wasteland->Suppression Field; performing a softlock on T2 like the old Maverick plan of Dude->Thalia->Wasteland or the lovely DRS->Wasteland->Loam that occasionally comes from BGx decks. Also, SField protects your lands a bit, and if you can get enough gross looking permanents, your opponent is likely to be busy playing spells instead of Wasting.

[Seraphix]

Lands is an interesting matchup. Keep in mind that we have:

1) Karakas -- keeps Marit Lage at bay
2) Knight -- they can't easily* kill it and it fetches the Wastelands we need to keep their combo off the board
3) True-Name Nemesis -- a card they just can't beat

Postboard, Meddling Mage on Punishing Fire* plus a decent amount of other disruption (Scooze, Tormod's Crypt, Wasteland) usually allows you to win before they can assemble their win. If you have a second Mage at this point, putting it on Loam makes their life exceedingly difficult. You can also Clique them after they dredge Loam (I just learned this the other day and I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it earlier).

*Now there are new Lands lists that don't run Punishing Fire, instead opting for Molten Vortex and Abrupt Decay. This makes Mage a little worse, because Vortex usually beats it to the field and turning off AD isn't that relevant. It's one of the reasons I'm thinking about running an additional Needle in my board (Needle has a lot of utility anyway in some of our bad matchups).

I'm looking at this build if I can make the tourney this weekend:

3 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library

4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Flooded Strand

2 Meddling Mage
2 Sunlance
2 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Snare
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Krosan Grip
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Explosives

Sunlance is to deal with opposing Delvers, Deathrites, Merfolk, Elves, stuff in Burn. Maybe PtE is better for hitting Mentor and Goyf and D&T but those usually aren't problems in the same way. Against the most common Mentor deck, I don't need extra removal; Goyf I can stonewall with a Knight or TNN, and we can usually go over the top of D&T as well. But the cards I mentioned have been the most dangerous, and I don't want to run a card that ramps in my Daze/Wasteland deck.

It's currently a 59-card mainboard. Flex spot could be Trygon Predator, Clique, or Ponder (has to be blue), and I may move the board around as well. Haven't decided if I want to be a Deathrite guy yet. If I decide against it those become a Hierarch and GSZ.

I've found Karakas is surprisingly ineffective against Lands unless you also have Crop Rotation or your own Loam. They just have too many ways to interact with it on board. Holding up Knight to fetch it is a losing battle unless you have multiple Knights out because that means you aren't killing them.

True-Name is good because they can't interact with it, but is still 3 mana and painfully slow.

I can see Meddling Mage being ok, but only in multiples since I'd feel priced into naming Fire with the first one. I'm not much of a fan of Pikula in general though. His main upside in my book is being a hatebear who also pitches to Force. Effect-wise I prefer Canonist/Teeg/Containment Priest.

If I was gunning for Lands, I would also probably run Surgical instead of Crypt.

[tescrin]

You could go deep and start running Nimble Mongoose (maybe a single goose if you're running GSZ.)
It's not a bad card, it's a TNN against decks like Miracles and Lands while likely being 1-2 turns faster. It's a fine fair beater a non-trivial amount of the time.

I'll point out, Suppression Field is pretty real against lands. Maze for 2 mana (3 lands), Port for 3 (4 lands), Waste (3 lands), Stage (5 lands to combo), etc..

If you want to run it in the side and not go all in like myself; that's what I started with. I just happened to notice that the free wins you can get attractive enough to experiment.

[anwei]

Ditch the SFM package, and you have easy space for:
The +1 GSZ & +1 Library you wanted, and the bonus
+1 Daze (you want to draw these early, they become bad quickly), and
+1 Tarmogoyf (I like to have a CMC2 beater to Zenith for when low on mana),
or
+1-2 Ponder
+1-2 Spell Pierce
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Qasali Pridemage
+1-2 Path to Exile (if Eldrazi are big in your meta).

If you're big on the Retreat package, it makes perfect sense to drop the Blades.

My initial list had no SFM, 4 GSZ, Library, 2 Jace, 3 Daze, maindeck Sigarda.

The starting point of this experiment is Brave Sir Robin + SFM to have more play against Abrupt Decay decks (especially Shardless Bug), where a consistent enough stream of KotR removal can slow you down enough to make the laziest of Visions/planeswalkers give them inevitability. As a meta lands at opposite ends of combo/shardless spectrum, I'd shift the support guys from Cliques to TNN to TNN+SFM.

[TLK]

Made the swap of 2 Knight for the 2 Clique, and a Karakas for a Windswept. Otherwise my list was the same as my winning list from last week's event. Did not do so well this week.

Round 1 vs EsperBlade:

Easy win. Same as last week. Jace ultimate game 1, and he had no answer for TNN + equip game 2.

2-0, 1-0

Round 2 vs Reanimator:

I lose game 1 to a turn 1 reanimated Grave Titan. I had the StP, but he countered it. I may have been able to stabilize if I got the Titan off the table before it was able to attack, but no such luck.

Game 2 was a grindy match. He reanimated my TNN that he had previously Thoughtseized, and that held my Batterskull at bay for a bit. We were pretty much draw-go for a few turns until I find my own TNN and equip Batterskull to it for the win.

Game 3 he plays around Daze and gets an early Griselbrand with counters for my removal.

1-2, 1-1

Round 3 vs Storm:

I lose game 1 on the second turn I believe.

Game 2 I was able to deny his mana and land a Rest In Peace. I ride 2/2 Knights to victory.

Game 3 my initial 7 were all lands. My mull to 6 saw no lands. Mull to 5 saw no lands. Mull to 4 saw no lands but I kept and he basically goldfished his way to victory.

1-2, 1-2

Round 4 vs Omni-Tell:

Game 1 I have double FoW for his Show & Tell, and think I'm in the clear as I attack him down to 5 life with a Batterskull, but he casts another the following turn and I can't do anything about Omniscience into Emrakul.

Game 2 he casts Show & Tell, to which I respond by flashing in Containment Priest, but of course he plops Omniscience into play and casts Emrakul.

0-2, 1-3

Lots of combo, and I didn't really pack a lot of combo hate, as I didn't play against any combo the week prior. I did get unlucky with the mulligans in game 3 against Storm, but I really feel like I need to adjust my sideboard if I'm going to play this deck again next week.

Does anyone have any suggestions to battle these matchups, or are they just unfavorable in general?

[KobeBryan]

Made the swap of 2 Knight for the 2 Clique, and a Karakas for a Windswept. Otherwise my list was the same as my winning list from last week's event. Did not do so well this week.

Round 1 vs EsperBlade:

Easy win. Same as last week. Jace ultimate game 1, and he had no answer for TNN + equip game 2.

2-0, 1-0

Round 2 vs Reanimator:

I lose game 1 to a turn 1 reanimated Grave Titan. I had the StP, but he countered it. I may have been able to stabilize if I got the Titan off the table before it was able to attack, but no such luck.

Game 2 was a grindy match. He reanimated my TNN that he had previously Thoughtseized, and that held my Batterskull at bay for a bit. We were pretty much draw-go for a few turns until I find my own TNN and equip Batterskull to it for the win.

Game 3 he plays around Daze and gets an early Griselbrand with counters for my removal.

1-2, 1-1

Round 3 vs Storm:

I lose game 1 on the second turn I believe.

Game 2 I was able to deny his mana and land a Rest In Peace. I ride 2/2 Knights to victory.

Game 3 my initial 7 were all lands. My mull to 6 saw no lands. Mull to 5 saw no lands. Mull to 4 saw no lands but I kept and he basically goldfished his way to victory.

1-2, 1-2

Round 4 vs Omni-Tell:

Game 1 I have double FoW for his Show & Tell, and think I'm in the clear as I attack him down to 5 life with a Batterskull, but he casts another the following turn and I can't do anything about Omniscience into Emrakul.

Game 2 he casts Show & Tell, to which I respond by flashing in Containment Priest, but of course he plops Omniscience into play and casts Emrakul.

0-2, 1-3

Lots of combo, and I didn't really pack a lot of combo hate, as I didn't play against any combo the week prior. I did get unlucky with the mulligans in game 3 against Storm, but I really feel like I need to adjust my sideboard if I'm going to play this deck again next week.

Does anyone have any suggestions to battle these matchups, or are they just unfavorable in general?

All the decks you played against are winnable. No more than a 60% advantage their way.

The only decks that bant has a disadvantage is elves, dnt

[Seraphix]

...

Lots of combo, and I didn't really pack a lot of combo hate, as I didn't play against any combo the week prior. I did get unlucky with the mulligans in game 3 against Storm, but I really feel like I need to adjust my sideboard if I'm going to play this deck again next week.

Does anyone have any suggestions to battle these matchups, or are they just unfavorable in general?


All the decks you played against are winnable. No more than a 60% advantage their way.

The only decks that bant has a disadvantage is elves, dnt

I've struggled a lot against Storm and I'm not sure how to reasonably fix that. Permission is very unreliable against them so I'm basically banking on ~2 hatebears in the 75 (typically G. Teeg and Canonist) to pull their weight. I have RIP which is ok but doesn't really do enough.

[KobeBryan]

I've struggled a lot against Storm and I'm not sure how to reasonably fix that. Permission is very unreliable against them so I'm basically banking on ~2 hatebears in the 75 (typically G. Teeg and Canonist) to pull their weight. I have RIP which is ok but doesn't really do enough.

GSZ for teeg. then you have 2 cannonist. That should be your SB. you should also have 2 flusters in the side. This gives you 5 cards for combo matchups. I saw that you took out cliques, but those are actually good MD

[TLK]

GSZ for teeg. then you have 2 cannonist. That should be your SB. you should also have 2 flusters in the side. This gives you 5 cards for combo matchups. I saw that you took out cliques, but those are actually good MD

Yeah, I took out the Cliques because I didn't face any combo last week and Clique seemed like the weakest card in the MD. I didn't have any Flusters, but I picked one up with my store credit from last week's win. I also don't run GSZ, but I do run Canonist in the side. Perhaps it's just a combination of being unlucky and not having the proper tools since I didn't face combo the week prior and thus didn't show up prepared.

[tescrin]

I've struggled a lot against Storm and I'm not sure how to reasonably fix that. Permission is very unreliable against them so I'm basically banking on ~2 hatebears in the 75 (typically G. Teeg and Canonist) to pull their weight. I have RIP which is ok but doesn't really do enough.

Typically I have a pretty big sideboard for storm if you add up some of the less interesting things; like Gravehate (I always have a cage or two and a Rip in the side), a couple hatebears as mentioned, and usually some fringe hatebears that sorta work (Meddling Mage, Mindcensor, or that sort of thing.) You can bring in your sweepers if you have any (EE, D.Sphere, or that sort of thing) so you have outs to gobbos, and (IMO) you should look at your hands with a "Does this get there" mentality. Personally I also run E-Tutor in the side to multiply my hate against decks.

Other things:
* Are you running DRS? If so, focus on removing mana from their graveyard, or Tutors (depending on if they have too much of one or the other for you to stop.) Also, take any opportunity to reduce their Threshold as well, in case of Cabal Rit.
* Wasting them is like chopping a spell out of their hand. Whenever you get the chance you should be limiting their mana. There are some cases where this does not work (Carpet of Flowers, a bunch of basics, etc..)
* Timing an Abrupt Decay or QPM on an LED if they multiple LEDs is a big problem for them; so if you see the opportunity, take it.
* Counter the thing that gets them the win condition, not the win-con. I.E. the Burning Wish or the Infernal Tutor/Petition or you'll get ranched by good players who will force you to discard. In some cases it's best to counter the mana card (an LED or a Cabal rit)

[TLK]

I think my issue with Meddling Mage is that I never know what to name against certain decks. Against the decks I played last night, I guess I'd name Show & Tell against Omni-Tell and Infernal Tutor (?) against Storm? Do I even bother bringing them in against Reanimator?

[Jaytron]

I think my issue with Meddling Mage is that I never know what to name against certain decks. Against the decks I played last night, I guess I'd name Show & Tell against Omni-Tell and Infernal Tutor (?) against Storm? Do I even bother bringing them in against Reanimator?

I don't think it's as easy as name X if they're playing Y deck. It's a question of 'what do I lose to right now?' and 'what can I stop by other means?'

[TLK]

Maybe I just need more experience playing with Meddling Mage.

[Jaytron]

Maybe I just need more experience playing with Meddling Mage.

I think not just meddling mage, but just exp playing against other decks often.

[tescrin]

I think my issue with Meddling Mage is that I never know what to name against certain decks. Against the decks I played last night, I guess I'd name Show & Tell against Omni-Tell and Infernal Tutor (?) against Storm? Do I even bother bringing them in against Reanimator?

I'm not great with MM as I often play non-blue (hence my more comfortable E-Tutor way of siding.) But:
* Burning wish if they run it; as it's a wincon that can also get hate cards for your Mage and other bears.
* * Infernal Tutor is the next best IIRC, but if you have an answer to goblins in hand you might name Tendrils in hopes that they go for it; but this "next level" play can bite you. (It'll cost you against good players, and give you results against a worse player who will probably just say "I can still win with goblins!" rather than consider that you have an answer in hand.)

Reanimator? I'd probably name Exhume. They can cut themselves off of Reanimate pretty easily and if they S&T you may have answer in hand. I have Containment Priest in the side with my grave hate, so with Plow and D.Sphere (in the side) I don't worry about the MU. If they get to put something on I probably kill it or can outsize it with Goyf. If I have Priest and Counters, or Cage and DSphere, etc.. etc.. they all do work and there are enough angles of attack to be safe.

Against Omnitell, yeah definitely S&T. Against Sneakshow? Depends if you have Needle/Revoker ready, if you have Priest or counters ready, etc. Have flusterstorm? Name Sneak Attack. Have Pithing Needle? PLay it and name S&T with the Mage.


Mostly, consider what you have vs. what they have. There are general answers like the above (Exhume, Wish or Tutor, etc..) but it's really whatever you think will lose you the game. If you have Forces in hand you might name Cabal Therapy so they can't disrupt your counters. There's lots of little things like leaving mana open for spells you don't have that you'll eventually consider as bluffing techniques.

[maharis]

I've been playing with a variant on the unkoman build. Every time I have DRS I feel like I should just be playing BUG or deathblade. I also feel pressured to have more ponders or something without GSZ. Obviously the deck is good but I don't think it's my style. Gonna probably play a more traditional build this weekend.

[anwei]

@ Meddling Mage, because I think a lot of this info is not bad, but missing a couple points:
- Against Storm, name Infernal Tutor.
(- Yes, of course, there is definitely some what-you-have vs. what-they-have, but usually you don't know what they have, and there are a lot of factors. The printing of Dark Petition means naming IT is less powerful than it has been, and LED (or Dark Rit!) remains a reasonable name, depending on how their hand is playing out. And BW decks (TES) can rely more heavily on BW for business and hate, so knowing that they're on BW means it's not a bad name. So yes, there are lots of aspects to it. Don't name Tendrils, Empty, or Past in Flames - most lists will have Ad Naus and removal against you post-board, and this will barely impede them. When in doubt, name Infernal Tutor. Of the bottle-necks, it's their most direct route to otherwise getting resources to beating your hate using Ad Nauseum.)

- Ok, the real point: note that Meddling Mage, in this deck (and in many others), is a far more complicated hate bear than (say) Ethersworn Canonist or Containment Priest. Storm and SnS need to remove those cards to beat you, and they're all-in on finding their outs. Most Legacy combo decks are not all-in on a single card to beat you; that wouldn't cut it (DTT-era Omni-Tell is the exception). So you give it your best shot, but they can eventually ignore MM, if they have enough time, and can maybe even ignore it right now (with Sneak Attack, Dark Petition, or Ad Naus in hand). It functions more like Pithing Needle on your sword than like Canonist - the goal isn't to shut them out of the game, it's to make a resource-favorable trade with one of the things they're trying to do, and hopefully win before they can play through/around it or remove it.
- In exchange for the less-hateful hating of alternatives (bears as well as cards like RiP or counters), Mage provides a clock, a blue card for FoW, and broader application. This makes Bant, especially with True-Name Nemesis, one of the decks that is best able to use Meddling Mage, since we need all 3 of those things. Post-board games often cut some number of threats and blue cards (TNN, JTMS), and we're already short on both, and look to board in super-powerful trumps (like white 2-drops, but not always on a body). As a midrange deck with minimal maindeck disruption for combo, we need as much hate as possible in the board, and after several slots go to fair matches (K Grip, extra removal, -1/-1 effects if possible) and hate cards, we don't have enough slots for all the cards we want for particular match-ups. We might have 8-10 dead/bad cards against storm. Broad options are really important.

But:
- Sometimes its still lame. It sucks to name Show and Tell and get Sneak Attacked. And some decks (some one rightfully names Reanimator) feel like a total crapshoot.
- Sometimes the/a/your meta is bad for it, if the combo decks don't line up well (Reanimator, Elves, Dredge = bad).
- Sometimes a build/your meta is able to handle more powerful options, and you should favor those. If you're worried about Storm, pack more canonists than Meddling Mages. If you have enough threats/blue cards, it's less good.
- Sideboarding in Bant usually means balancing (a) counters, (b) hate-permanents, (c) clock. Sometimes you have enough hate permanents and you just need another Pierce/Envelop/Flusterstorm/Swan Song (also all broadly applicable) to get to T2.
- Enlightened Tutor can be a direct competitor for some of the usefulness (broad, permanent-based), with its own advantages (gets stronger hate, dodges discard, easier to play correctly), and is criminally underplayed.

[tescrin]

I've been playing with a variant on the unkoman build. Every time I have DRS I feel like I should just be playing BUG or deathblade. I also feel pressured to have more ponders or something without GSZ. Obviously the deck is good but I don't think it's my style. Gonna probably play a more traditional build this weekend.

I've been happy with 4 Ponder most of the time. I too feel odd with DRS if you're not delving into the 4th color, as he's less reliable than Noble and it feels obnoxious to have Tundra + DRS. It's true that Noble doesn't cast from Tundra either, but at least she reliably produces mana. I've also found Exalted to be pretty good since Noble gets to affect the board state as soon as she hits. I may eventually supplement her with some number of DRS, or do the whole 8x Mana-dudes, but I will say that it's been nice to just know she's a mana dork despite Rips, a lack of fetches/wastes, or similar.

@E-Tutor
It's definitely a real card. I use a pair in the side and yesterday I got my Warmth both games. I'll say that I still barely lost G3 but I thought my life total was 1 when it was 3 (due to said warmth) and instead of having a boardstate of Goyf vs. Swiftspear, I plowed my goyf vs his 2 Swiftspears and Goblin guide. (Pointed out to be after the game that I would've easily won had I realized I had just gained 2 from the Goblin Guide.)

It acts as Storm hate by multiplying my 2x Canonist and if they Gobbo'd me, more Engineered Explosives/Detention Spheres, acts as Grave/Elves hate by multiplying my Cages/Rips, acts as multiplying Revokers/Needles/Bridge or similar for S&T. E-Tutor, Plow, and the hate permanents are the only reasons I'm even in White.

[TLK]

I, too, have been considering cutting the 2 Deathrites I run in the main. The Tundra -> Deathrite is indeed annoying, and unless I have the singleton U. Sea on the battlefield, he's just a semi-reliable mana dork. I may try Birds of Paradise in that slot, and maybe add another basic or a second Savannah in place of the Sea.

[maharis]

DRS + Tundra is annoying, but Hierarch + Knight + Usea is worse.

In Deathblade, green is the splash, so having more Useas is good. And I have played Grixis with the trop and it doesn't feel nearly as bad, because if the trop were an underground it would still miss all the same stuff (usually just bolts and pyros) and cast all the same stuff (DRS + cantrips). But usea misses so much of our deck... Stoneforge, Knight, Hierarch, any other green utility creatures, STP, Sylvan Library, GSZ if you want it...

But then again if you don't play the Usea then DRS isn't really that much better than Hierarch, unless you're playing against another DRS deck, but in that case you're just never going to be as good as them. Or you're playing against exactly Reanimator or Dredge and get to untap (not a given).

Anyway. Finalizing build tonight, hope to crush tomorrow.

On Meddling Mage: I think it's at its best in conjunction with Gaddock Teeg, which is GSZ-able, so you get extra access to hatebears and blue cards for FOW without having to run a different tutor or keep in "dead" cards. Meddling Mage is also really good with counterspells since you can usually keep them off one thing and go after the other with your Force/Pierce/other. And I also think Mage has some utility against fair decks if you need it, Miracles especially.

[maharis]

About to draw into top 8 of a win a dual at 4-1-1

There are two Eldrazi decks in top 8 and another on a win and in right now.

[maharis]

OK. Here's the report

4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library
1 Bant Charm
1 Ponder
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Island

2 Pithing Needle
2 Sunlance
2 Meddling Mage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Flusterstorm
1 Envelop
1 Council's Judgement
1 Life from the Loam
1 Engineered Explosives

27 players. Swiss + 1 (6 rounds). Duals to top 8. I get in about 5 minutes after the posted starting time after a parking search, worried I was holding people up, but we were delayed about another 10 minutes while others straggled in. That's just the reality of NYC, and I'm not complaining, I'm just glad I wasn't the last person.

However, my round 1 opponent was the last person. Having empathy for the situation, I didn't mind waiting for him to fill out his list and everything. But he's on Esper Stoneblade, and the Stoneforge/Jace mirror goes pretty long. He takes game 1, I take game 2. Game 3 goes to time, but he offers to scoop since he was late. That's my break of the day. 1-0

My reward for not drawing is Miracles in round 2. Wait, what? Anyway, I don't think this matchup is terrible, but he wins two pretty easy games for him. I brick on action and can't stick a threat through STP/Snap. I also have a Trygon Predator Pyroblasted, then Jace Snap-Pyroblasted the next turn. Savage. 1-1

Round three is Miracles again... and of course it's my friend who came with me, and we're borrowing cards from each other, and it's all super awkward to meet at this point. In game 1 he goes to 5 and I go to 4 on the draw, but my 4+1 yield a turn 2 Sylvan Library which lets me refill my hand and draw pretty much everything I need in a half-hour game. Luckily I also win game 2. 2-1

Round four is U/R delver. I know this player as being on RUG and sort of awkwardly play around Stifle until I realize he doesn't have it. A big Knight takes game 1 and equipment runs away with game 2. 3-1.

Round five is W/R D&T. Solid player who I've played against a few times and know to play around Magus of the Moon. Game 1 he keeps a 1-land Vial hand but I counter it and he has no other action. I lose game 2 and win game 3. 4-1

ID with round 6 opponent, who was undefeated with UW standstill. Fighting the good fight!

Top 8:
Eldrazi x2
Bant
W/R D&T
D&T
Reanimator
MUD
UW Standstill

What a game.

Quarters vs. Eldrazi. I'm on the draw. I keep a hand with lots of land, Sylvan, Hierarch, double GSZ when he mulls. I don't really care about Chalice here. And I feel good when he opens on it. But the rest of his plays are blazing fast: Mimic into Smasher into TKS. I do get a big Knight on turn 4 and Bant Charm his Smasher (discarding Hierarch) but he makes a huge Endless One and goes around me.

Game 2 I keep a one-lander but it's Trop + GSZ with Daze, Force, Jace, Clique, TNN. Basically hope I can delay him enough to draw more land. I get Arbor, Daze a mimic, and draw/play Hierarch. He plays cavern on Elemental and Shriekmaws my Hierarch. Well that didn't go as planned. I draw another Hierarch. Guess what! He has another Shriekmaw. Then Cavern on Eldrazi, Reality Smasher, GG.

I honestly have Eldrazi complaint fatigue. Honestly, I like a lot of things about the deck -- that it brings people in from Modern, that it's a non-blue deck that's taking off, that it's new cards in Legacy. But honestly, I would rather play against Cruise Delver or DTT Omni than this deck. Those decks had way more opportunities for interaction. I don't think this Eldrazi deck will widen the field of playable decks and is more likely to just push out more decks. You have to be fast, AND beat chalice, AND beat undercosted OP creatures... it's asking a lot of a deck. I don't think Chalice is the problem, I think the creatures are just too good with the amount of sol lands available to cast them. Anyway, soapbox over. Got store credit for a Plateau for my run. Bant is a fun deck to play.

[limbo]

Ran a close variant of Unkomen's legacy daily list to a 4-1 last week and 3-1 this week at my LGS weekly legacy. Both loses were to control decks (grixis and miracles) and I made clear errors in both. The deck is quite good. Beaten a diverse set of decks Tezz, elves, D&T, Lands, Aggro Loam, and ANT. Played a few test matches against miracles and eldrazi with good results.

Quick observations: 3rd Tundra could easily be a flooded strand (access to USea) or 3rd deathrite shaman. I love the power of the maindeck Elspeth, but it should probably be a second sylvan library, or a painful truths; the Elspeth the reason for the 3rd tundra being included as far as I can tell. I like not messing around with Karakas and other lands.Very happy with the sideboard.

List:
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Sylvan Library

2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
1 Nahiri, the Lithomancer
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Meddling Mage
1 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
1 Zealous Persecution

[anwei]

second sylvan library

Pretty much every time I play Bant, I have at least one match come up where I hit Sylvan and think to myself that not running 2 is a serious mistake. Collisions are very uncommon and the card is good to dominant in almost every match.

[TLK]

Newly spoiled Invocation of Saint Traft would be awesome on a TNN. Maybe Blouses can make a resurrection?

[KobeBryan]

Newly spoiled Invocation of Saint Traft would be awesome on a TNN. Maybe Blouses can make a resurrection?

Why not just equip a sword

[TLK]

Why not both? This is effectively cheaper than a sword anyway.

[KobeBryan]

Why not both? This is effectively cheaper than a sword anyway.

What can you take out?

Sword replaces the GSZ package. This deck doesn't have more than 2 flex slots.

[Tantarus]

Newly spoiled Invocation of Saint Traft would be awesome on a TNN. Maybe Blouses can make a resurrection?

Seems terrible. Maybe 4 more damage over sword procs or another creature that can use equipment. I would argue gheist is far better, but that does not make him good. Hell, Armadillo Cloak is arguably better.

[Tokugawa]

Seems terrible. Maybe 4 more damage over sword procs or another creature that can use equipment. I would argue gheist is far better, but that does not make him good. Hell, Armadillo Cloak is arguably better.

Land a TNN, then glue some awesome tremendous aura on him.

If such strategy could work, why Pariah has not been played?:tongue::tongue:

[KobeBryan]

Seems terrible. Maybe 4 more damage over sword procs or another creature that can use equipment. I would argue gheist is far better, but that does not make him good. Hell, Armadillo Cloak is arguably better.

Its only 2 more damage.

[Tantarus]

Its only 2 more damage.

And 5 life so a 7 point life swing. That said I am not suggesting it is remotely playable. I am suggesting that this new enchant is terrible. And if a 3 mana enchant creature was remotely playable there are far better options. Making a 4/4 flyer till end of turn that can be blocked/mazed/killed is just not good.

[KobeBryan]

And 5 life so a 7 point life swing. That said I am not suggesting it is remotely playable. I am suggesting that this new enchant is terrible. And if a 3 mana enchant creature was remotely playable there are far better options. Making a 4/4 flyer till end of turn that can be blocked/mazed/killed is just not good.

I agree.

I was pointing out that its far worse than a sword.

[Qweerios]

Went 4-0 last week playing a last minute list. I beat DnT 2-0, Miracles 2-0, Eldrazi 2-1, and Eldrazi again 2-0. I usually favor more black in my Bant decks because I think DRS is on a completely different level than Hierarch and that Abrupt Decay is amazing. Here's the list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Dismember

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

1 Sylvan Library

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
//SB
3 Meddling Mage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Rest in Peace
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Against the Eldrazi decks I had Stoneforge and TNN do most of the work backed with key removal and FoW. Against Miracles I managed my threats and my counterspells efficiently and Wastelands did a lot of work (surprisingly). Throughout all my matches the same scenarios ocured where I opened with a dork into SFM/TNN backed with removal /counters. No cliques, Library, or Jace saw much play (Jace once in a board stall vs DnT).

Going forward I think there are no reasons for me not to incorporate those 2 Abrupt Decays in the mainboard. Decay doubles up as StP #5-6 and Qasali #3-4 which provides a great balance of removal spells. Dismember and Jace or a Clique will probably make way for them.

Something I have been meaning to ask is: What do you guys think of Qasali Pridemage in this deck versus other alternatives such as more Abrupt Decay, a 4th SFM with only 2 equipments, having moree Jace, or even Council's Judgment?

[HSCK]

I've just been grinding with the 2 DRS, 4 SFM, 3 Knights and TNN version from MODO and SFM has been great, but you'd definitely want another equipment. I've been doing well against Shardless and Miracles, much better than the Zenith versions. Against Eldrazi they have trouble with any equipment that ever ends up on the table and all 6 of the 3 drops.

[KobeBryan]

Went 4-0 last week playing a last minute list. I beat DnT 2-0, Miracles 2-0, Eldrazi 2-1, and Eldrazi again 2-0. I usually favor more black in my Bant decks because I think DRS is on a completely different level than Hierarch and that Abrupt Decay is amazing. Here's the list:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Dismember

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

1 Sylvan Library

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
//SB
3 Meddling Mage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Rest in Peace
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Against the Eldrazi decks I had Stoneforge and TNN do most of the work backed with key removal and FoW. Against Miracles I managed my threats and my counterspells efficiently and Wastelands did a lot of work (surprisingly). Throughout all my matches the same scenarios ocured where I opened with a dork into SFM/TNN backed with removal /counters. No cliques, Library, or Jace saw much play (Jace once in a board stall vs DnT).

Going forward I think there are no reasons for me not to incorporate those 2 Abrupt Decays in the mainboard. Decay doubles up as StP #5-6 and Qasali #3-4 which provides a great balance of removal spells. Dismember and Jace or a Clique will probably make way for them.

Something I have been meaning to ask is: What do you guys think of Qasali Pridemage in this deck versus other alternatives such as more Abrupt Decay, a 4th SFM with only 2 equipments, having moree Jace, or even Council's Judgment?

If you are going this route, I think its more prudent to go Birds over Noble.

[anwei]

Going forward I think there are no reasons for me not to incorporate those 2 Abrupt Decays in the mainboard. Decay doubles up as StP #5-6 and Qasali #3-4 which provides a great balance of removal spells. Dismember and Jace or a Clique will probably make way for them.

Something I have been meaning to ask is: What do you guys think of Qasali Pridemage in this deck versus other alternatives such as more Abrupt Decay, a 4th SFM with only 2 equipments, having moree Jace, or even Council's Judgment?

I think you can cut the 8th dork, if you're looking for room for the 2nd Decay. Maybe that's a Hierarch, since your forest count is pretty weak. (I would also cut Karakas for a dual/fetch/basic forest, with no way to find it and a 4-wasteland, 4-color deck.) I think Pridemage is great and I'd love to be playing 2 in most Bant lists - it's often a reasonable clock in a sometimes-creature-light deck and great for many match-ups.


If you are going this route, I think its more prudent to go Birds over Noble.

Just for Decay and DRS activations? I think that's selling Hierarch short, particularly in this sort of list.

[KobeBryan]

I think you can cut the 8th dork, if you're looking for room for the 2nd Decay. Maybe that's a Hierarch, since your forest count is pretty weak. (I would also cut Karakas for a dual/fetch/basic forest, with no way to find it and a 4-wasteland, 4-color deck.) I think Pridemage is great and I'd love to be playing 2 in most Bant lists - it's often a reasonable clock in a sometimes-creature-light deck and great for many match-ups.



Just for Decay and DRS activations? I think that's selling Hierarch short, particularly in this sort of list.

I agree. The exalted is great against most decks.

But with decays and 4 drs activations and with 1 sea, its not feasible.

[anwei]

Qweerios went to 2, which I think is enough.

[tescrin]

I'd half consider a singleton Murmuring Bosk with 4xMisty Rainforest 4xWindswept Heath as the fetches. Fetch at EoT when it's convenient if you need all your colors. This is likely what I'll try if I hope on the Decay/DRS train. It's not the worst thing in the world to occasionally ping yourself or ETB-tapped (as people who run Tar Pit can attest) and having only a single land fix most of your deck seems convenient. Literally everything can be cast with a Trop and a Bosk.

I mean.. it could still be stupid.. but agian may be worth a try.

[KobeBryan]

I'd half consider a singleton Murmuring Bosk with 4xMisty Rainforest 4xWindswept Heath as the fetches. Fetch at EoT when it's convenient if you need all your colors. This is likely what I'll try if I hope on the Decay/DRS train. It's not the worst thing in the world to occasionally ping yourself or ETB-tapped (as people who run Tar Pit can attest) and having only a single land fix most of your deck seems convenient. Literally everything can be cast with a Trop and a Bosk.

I mean.. it could still be stupid.. but agian may be worth a try.

This is only good if you replace the savannah

[Qweerios]

I tried 2 Decays mainboard instead of Dismember and moved Jace to the SB. I didn't do so well in my last tournament and went 2-2. I brutally lost r1 0-2 to Shardless BUG by eating t2 Hymn followed by t3 Shardless into Visions both games. Despite those openers I nearly won g2 on the back of Nemesis and Jace. I then lost to Storm 1-2 because I made the mistake of keeping Decay instead of StP against Xanthid Swarm (not enough copies and the mana cost is too high). I took r3 2-1 against Storm again but with proper SB this time (kept StP and Nemesis for the blue count and took out SFM entirely). Finally won r4 2-0 against Hex Depths.

The Decays were great and I rarely have issues casting them with my most common opener of Tropical into dork into Scrubland. A single Scrub and Usea is enough to support DRS activations and 2-3 Decays postboard. This card solves the issues I had with finding specific removal back when I played the GSZ version.

Going forward I was also thinking about the singleton Karakas becoming a Windswept Heath. I initially had it in because I wanted a reason to play Cliques other than reaching 18 blue cards for FoW but the combination rarely occurs. I rarely even play Cliques and whenever I see two copies I cringe so I will probably move a Jace back in and elliminate a Clique entirely)

Spell Pierce will become Flusterstorm in the SB as I really dont see a reason to play Pierces when I pack 3 Decays and 2 Pridemages in the 75 for most "Pierce-able" permanents.

Instead of the Zealous Persecutions I was thinking of adopting a singleton Ethersworn Canonist and a Dread of Night as well as an Enlightened Tutor. Since I mostly use ZP for Elves and DnT, I think it would make a fine update while also boosting my Storm matchup by a notch.

Going back to my question about Pridemage, while there is no denying that Qasali is a "good" card, I find it is often low impact. What I mean to ask is if he is necessity for the deck and does he pull his weight when he is needed.

[KobeBryan]

I tried 2 Decays mainboard instead of Dismember and moved Jace to the SB. I didn't do so well in my last tournament and went 2-2. I brutally lost r1 0-2 to Shardless BUG by eating t2 Hymn followed by t3 Shardless into Visions both games. Despite those openers I nearly won g2 on the back of Nemesis and Jace. I then lost to Storm 1-2 because I made the mistake of keeping Decay instead of StP against Xanthid Swarm (not enough copies and the mana cost is too high). I took r3 2-1 against Storm again but with proper SB this time (kept StP and Nemesis for the blue count and took out SFM entirely). Finally won r4 2-0 against Hex Depths.

The Decays were great and I rarely have issues casting them with my most common opener of Tropical into dork into Scrubland. A single Scrub and Usea is enough to support DRS activations and 2-3 Decays postboard. This card solves the issues I had with finding specific removal back when I played the GSZ version.

Going forward I was also thinking about the singleton Karakas becoming a Windswept Heath. I initially had it in because I wanted a reason to play Cliques other than reaching 18 blue cards for FoW but the combination rarely occurs. I rarely even play Cliques and whenever I see two copies I cringe so I will probably move a Jace back in and elliminate a Clique entirely)

Spell Pierce will become Flusterstorm in the SB as I really dont see a reason to play Pierces when I pack 3 Decays and 2 Pridemages in the 75 for most "Pierce-able" permanents.

Instead of the Zealous Persecutions I was thinking of adopting a singleton Ethersworn Canonist and a Dread of Night as well as an Enlightened Tutor. Since I mostly use ZP for Elves and DnT, I think it would make a fine update while also boosting my Storm matchup by a notch.

Going back to my question about Pridemage, while there is no denying that Qasali is a "good" card, I find it is often low impact. What I mean to ask is if he is necessity for the deck and does he pull his weight when he is needed.

Pridemage for abrupt decay

[anwei]

I rarely even play Cliques and whenever I see two copies I cringe so I will probably move a Jace back in and elliminate a Clique entirely)

...

Going back to my question about Pridemage, while there is no denying that Qasali is a "good" card, I find it is often low impact. What I mean to ask is if he is necessity for the deck and does he pull his weight when he is needed.

I had happily settled, when playing this more, on 3 TNN, 2 Geist, 1 Clique. This was mostly pre-DTT, but I think I'd play that tomorrow. (And I'd probably still run 1, maybe try to fit 2, Stifle, which add to the temp plan, are awesome with Geist, and do work in Miracles/Storm match-ups.)

I cut the Pridemages often post-board, when their increase in answers sink the value of my exalted and on-board-ness, but I do think they're quite good. Aside from just ability/body, I think you want some density of 2-drops as a Dork+Daze deck, and it's much more aggressive than SFM. Hierarch, Daze, Pridemage, Swing-4 and drop a hexproof guy is a pretty tough opening to beat. (I guess I do get more exalted value with Geists.)

If I had to rule-of-thumb Pridemage vs. Decay (which, I think you're right, are competing on those slots), I'd look at how you treat Pridemage in that match. They're both sort of split cards that can remove key artifacts/enchantments, but Pridemage is also a threat while Decay is creature removal. In any match-ups where I would mainly treat Pridemage as a way to blow something up (equipment, chalice, conterbalance), I'd rather be playing decay, since it's way better at that. In matches where Pridemage is mainly a body, I'd rather be playing with it than decay, since I think I'm ultimately the better creature deck with TNN+SFM, so I'd prefer pressing my advantage to 5th removal. So if you expect more Pridemage-is-swiss-army-removal matches, play Decay. If you expect more Pridemage-is-a-3/3 matches, play Pridemage.

[Qweerios]

I will definitely keep 2 copies of Decay mainboard and I don't think I will go to more than 3 copies total in the 75. I don't see this deck as an aggressive deck in the sense that it hits hard and fast but more as a deck that plays top-of-the-curve spells quickly and reliably. I took a quick glance at most of the tier 1 and tier 2 decks and I saw very little matchups where Qasali's utility was necessary. In most matchups, I get more value out of SFM for Jitte/Batterskull, thus validating a 4th SFM over any amount of Qasali. It appears that in most matchups Qasali acts as an aggressive 2drop, at which point I can think of better options (Goyf for instance). The second Qasali could be anything from a 3rd Decay, 2nd Clique, or 2nd Jace to a SoFaI in the mainboard (which I never liked in several years of Stoneblade). I think blue cards should be prioritized with such a low blue count. Especially when you consider TNN and Jace to be garbage vs combo decks and have to be balanced out by blue hate.



The way I see Daze in this deck is usually as a speed bump. I don't need to be constantly applying pressure while I daze as long as it allows me to slow the game down while I advance my board. Having my Dazes command respect is all I want.



What do you guys think about Notion Thief as SB tech against Shardless BUG?

What is the status on Gideon, Ally of Zendikar? I have a 2nd Jace in my SB against fair and grindy decks but I can see Gideon as a contender for that role. I like how he makes 2/2 Vigilance tokens against BUG that will stall a clogged board (aside from Goyf) and eventually the anthem moves a lot of cards out of Golgari Charm's range. Vigilance tokens make great equipment cariers as well and can often be way better than a brainstorm per turn against miracles. Turning him into a 5/5 quickly ends a game or an unprotected PW.

[cdnza]

Did some last-minute deckbuilding tonight for 3k tomorrow. Here's where I'm at:

4 waste
3 strand
3 heath
2 misty
3 trop
2 tundra
1 usea
1 savannah
1 bayou
1 forest

3 hierarch
3 drs
4 stoneforge
3 true name
2 vendilion

4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 force
4 swords to plowshares
1 sylvan library
1 batterskull
1 jitte
1 sofai
1 abrupt decay
2 jace
1 elspeth

SB
2 pikula
1 containment
2 canonist
2 RIP
2 flusterstorm
2 abrupt decay
1 path
1 zealous
1 surgical
1 krosan

(Yes, part of typing this out just now was to test whether I actually knew my own decklist!). Will update after tomorrow's tournament. Also if anyone has any SB ideas in the next 10 hours please feel free to share!

[anwei]

Seems solid. I assume its too late, but I'd drop a PW for a 6th non-embarassingly statt'd threat (TNN/Geist/KotR). Running SFM into a defender for Jitte counters is fine, but with 2 swords, I think 1 more is better.
Board looks strong. I'd consider trying to fit a Tutor (for Path?), cutting Surgical for Cage, but I think it's fine.

[KobeBryan]

Seems solid. I assume its too late, but I'd drop a PW for a 6th non-embarassingly statt'd threat (TNN/Geist/KotR). Running SFM into a defender for Jitte counters is fine, but with 2 swords, I think 1 more is better.
Board looks strong. I'd consider trying to fit a Tutor (for Path?), cutting Surgical for Cage, but I think it's fine.

I dont think you need path with 3 decays. Same with grip

You essentially have 7 removals. What is pikula

[ironclad8690]

Pikula is the Meddling Mage himself :)

http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/images/MI00/988.jpg

(That's a pretty sick photobomb btw)

Just dropped in to say that I have been playing against a ton of Bant on MTGO, and I have been having a heck of a time (I play mostly Shardless). Seems like Unkoman and similar people are putting in some good work in testing and optimizing various lists. I feel like Bant is pretty well positioned right now. Wasn't Deathblade the main reason people stopped playing Bant? Seems like since that deck is at an all time low you guys should be looking pretty good in the scheme of things.

[KobeBryan]

Pikula is the Meddling Mage himself :)

http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/images/MI00/988.jpg

(That's a pretty sick photobomb btw)

Just dropped in to say that I have been playing against a ton of Bant on MTGO, and I have been having a heck of a time (I play mostly Shardless). Seems like Unkoman and similar people are putting in some good work in testing and optimizing various lists. I feel like Bant is pretty well positioned right now. Wasn't Deathblade the main reason people stopped playing Bant? Seems like since that deck is at an all time low you guys should be looking pretty good in the scheme of things.

Thanks

Its because the deck does unbelieveably well against that stupid eldrazi deck

[ironclad8690]

What do you guys think about Notion Thief as SB tech against Shardless BUG?

To be honest I don't think you need it. I play Shardless and get regularly creamed by Bant (ok, not quite "creamed", but MU is about 50/50 in my experience), I most often lose to:

1) Jace I can't pressure due to needing to deal with SFMs/Equips in the early stages of the game instead of advancing my board. Also dorks bring him out too early. I would strongly recommend 2 if midrange/control MU is giving trouble.

2) Batterskull. This card is just nigh unbeatable unless I can resolve a Pulse (which is most challenging to do around Daze), or get super ahead on board with Liliana.

3) Wastelanded out of the game. With so many mana dorks you guys just tempo us out and don't miss a beat on curve while also wastelanding, which Shardless really hates.

The only games I win are when my removal matches up 'prefectly' against your threats (Deluge, 1 mana disfigure to deal with 1 mana noble, thoughtseize to snipe equip, g charm or liliana to answer TNN, etc). It actually spreads our removal too thin in many cases.

Also boarding against your deck is hard, You need to board in more removal but also keep your discard count high enough to answers equips some of the time.

Last point, I don't think I have won a game against a resolved Gideon, Ally.

[Seraphix]

...
Just dropped in to say that I have been playing against a ton of Bant on MTGO, and I have been having a heck of a time (I play mostly Shardless). Seems like Unkoman and similar people are putting in some good work in testing and optimizing various lists. I feel like Bant is pretty well positioned right now. Wasn't Deathblade the main reason people stopped playing Bant? Seems like since that deck is at an all time low you guys should be looking pretty good in the scheme of things.

Shardless is beatable for Bant, but I feel like it comes down to how each player's draw lines up. We have stuff that can run away with the game after a few turns like Knight/Jace/Equips, but the issue is that Shardless technically has an answer for everything we try to do-they just have to find it.

I love playing Bant, but I can't honestly say it's better positioned than Esper Deathblade. It does different things (more acceleration/tempo plays, cleaner manabase, Knight), but sometimes I wonder if those things are really justifiable.

[tescrin]

Going forward I was also thinking about the singleton Karakas becoming a Windswept Heath. I initially had it in because I wanted a reason to play Cliques other than reaching 18 blue cards for FoW but the combination rarely occurs. I rarely even play Cliques and whenever I see two copies I cringe so I will probably move a Jace back in and elliminate a Clique entirely)

Clique the second one back into your deck?

[wizardwand]

Went 5-2 for a 9th place finish this weekend. ~92 Players total.

Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
2 Sylvan Library
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Lands
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea

Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Path to Exile
2 Flusterstorm
1 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Meddling Mage
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Rest in Peace
1 Krosan Grip
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant

The rounds:
R1 W Eldrazi
R2 W Miracles
R3 W Loam Pox
R4 W Eldrazi
R5 L Elves
R6 L Death and Taxes
R7 W Shardless BUG

All top 16 lists are here (http://cfbgamecenter.wpengine.com/legacy-3k-top-16-lists/)

[HateKnuckle]

I was wondering if there was a way that Bant could become a value deck similar to Shardless BUG.

The problem here is that I can't think of much value to be had when we lose some great cards like Hymn, Abrupt Decay, and Baleful Strix. What can we cascade into that isn't the thopter sword combo?

-I've thought of Meddling Mage but that's more of a SB card as it will most likely just eat removal against a fair deck.
-Qasali Pridemage isn't too bad.
-Scavenging Ooze is okay but shrinks Goyf so I'm not sure about that interaction.
-Gaddock Teeg could be okay but suffers from the same narrow cirumstances that Meddling Mage does.
-Stoneforge Mystic which is probably the only card that is a definite yes so far.
-Coiling Oracle which would be our worse Balefu Strix. Probably only a contender if desperate.
-Cosi's Trickster maybe not bad but could be better.
-Quirion Dryad. It could be good but I just don't know The only mono green spells in the deck would be Hierarchs but paying 2 for a 1/1 ain't the best. Probably just gets beat by Tarmogoyf.

[maharis]

Yeah other than SFM and Goyf we lack a lot of impact 2 cmc cards. If you're going to run Shardless BUG is just better, or you can run the Thopter list that's kicked around the past couple years.

Our best way to impact the game is to ramp into our Knights, TNNs and Jaces. That's why you see 6+ dorks in every list. Keeping the curve low for Shardless Agent is sort of at odds with the ramp strategy.

[Qweerios]

Quick report from last night's weekly:

2-0 against Nic Fit
2-0 against Bant (the online list posted a few pages back with 6 dorks and mainboard Gideon + 2 Jaces)
2-0 against Shardless BUG
2-0 against Punishing Zoo

I decided to play 4 Ponders last minute and cut Cliques, the 9th fetch, and moved Jace to the SB entirely. Basically I was struggling with the blue count postboard against certain matchups so I trimmed the fat in favor of manipulation. All I ever win with is SFM and TNN and Ponder allows so much freedom with the SB. Here's the list I settled on:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Ponder

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

1 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
//SB
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rest in Peace
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


@HateKnuckle
I don't think there is a way for Bant to become Shardless BUG other than changing decks. I also don't see the point of striving for a deck to become like another.

[HateKnuckle]

I was trying to think of a way for Bant to be more mid-range deck than tempo. The current strategy involves playing threats and protecting them rather than disrupting and then playing value creatures. I don't want Bant to be Sharldess BUG. I just want to see if it can become a similar or same strategy. The problem is that disruption is only really found in black discard and cheap counter magic. I figured that Legacy would have the card pool to make it happen but I don't know about that. The only cards that I an think of that fit the strategy are modern legal cards like Voice of Resurgence, Gaddock Teeg, and Thalia. So maybe Wizards has only recently thought about developing this type of strategy.

[anwei]

I decided to play 4 Ponders last minute and cut Cliques, the 9th fetch, and moved Jace to the SB entirely.

How'd you like this?

It's the most common major structural change I think about, but I always conclude that they lose too much on-board velocity and that GSZ plays the same role better (I'm less often so heavy into SFM/TNN).


I was trying to think of a way for Bant to be more mid-range deck than tempo. The current strategy involves playing threats and protecting them rather than disrupting and then playing value creatures. I don't want Bant to be Sharldess BUG. I just want to see if it can become a similar or same strategy. The problem is that disruption is only really found in black discard and cheap counter magic. I figured that Legacy would have the card pool to make it happen but I don't know about that. The only cards that I an think of that fit the strategy are modern legal cards like Voice of Resurgence, Gaddock Teeg, and Thalia. So maybe Wizards has only recently thought about developing this type of strategy.

I don't think you're using the words "tempo" and "mid-range" in the sense that many Legacy players use them, though emphasizing disruption/value is on target for something, though I'm not sure Bant is the right shell, as others have noted. Among the disruptive cards you mention, most of those do take center stage in the Maverick lists, which (rightly) trade blue to make them (esp. Thalia) playable. For more of a value-driven suite, you might check out Bahra's Noble Bant deck. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27866-Noble-Fish) Judge's Familiar, Looter il-Kor, and Edric are curious as midrange cards, but fit disruption/value in their own ways.

[HateKnuckle]

I don't think you're using the words "tempo" and "mid-range" in the sense that many Legacy players use them, though emphasizing disruption/value is on target for something, though I'm not sure Bant is the right shell, as others have noted. Among the disruptive cards you mention, most of those do take center stage in the Maverick lists, which (rightly) trade blue to make them (esp. Thalia) playable. For more of a value-driven suite, you might check out Bahra's Noble Bant deck. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27866-Noble-Fish) Judge's Familiar, Looter il-Kor, and Edric are curious as midrange cards, but fit disruption/value in their own ways.

Yeah that is more of what I'm going for. Love Edric but I just wish he did what he does at a cheaper price. You've provided me with much to ponder. Thanks a bunch for the fuel.

[Qweerios]

@anwei,

I really enjoyed the 4 Ponders. I had similar concerns about the card affecting the curve and the deck's aggressive nature in a negative way. However, I don't see see/play Bant as a deck that needs to curve out or apply constant pressure to be competitive. Most blue decks whether they are tempo, controle, or midrange tend to play Ponder with success, so why not Bant? SFM and TNN are all you really need to win a game. When my deck operated on a curve I would often find myself wasting turns and mana casting Cliques and other threats that quickly get outmatched or removed when I could have been digging for the cards I actually needed.

I find Ponder to be much stronger than GSZ because:

-it is blue
-it is relevant in all matchups and never suboptimal
-digging for removal, lands, and counters is just as important as digging for threats
-it virtually expands SB space and variety

[anwei]

I get all that (or most - GSZ is sideboard candyland), but like: It's a ponder that always finds Knight or acceleration or your sickest hate bear.
Obviously it can't dig for (or pitch to) FoW or removal or whatever, but the consistent-business baseline is so high -- if Knight is the action you want to be running.
It may not be, and then Ponders (without GSZ) seems quite strong. (I think the rather definitive shift to 4-Ponder Miracles has, as you say, added a lot of clout to its value.)

[Kunfuzed]

I took 4th at a 25-person tournament on Sunday after punting in the semis. I played a significant number of combo decks, so I thought this report would be a helpful data point for you guys. I was playing a stock list:

2 Deathrite
4 Noble Hierarch
3 TNN
3 Knight
4 Stoneforge

4 StP
4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Sylvan Library (just incredible)
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI
1 Gideon (never cast)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Karakas
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
7 Fetches

SB:
2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip
2 Rest in Peace
1 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Surgical Extraction

Sneak & Show: 2-1
Blowout game 1, side in everything and grind out 2 post-SB wins. In one game, I turn 1 wasted his Volcanic, and he had to use Lotus Petal to activate his Sneak Attack, so Knight for Karakas to bounce his Emrakul was clutch. I surgical his Lotus Petal, and he couldn't find another red source. Other game, Meddling Mage on Show & Tell didn't matter, because he dropped Sneak Attack, but somehow I won. I might be conflating the two games.

Tin Fins: 2-1
Blowout game 1, side in everything and grind out 2 post-SB wins. Game 2 Meddling Mage on Shallow Grave blanks his win, and I sit on an active Deathrite and show ultimate restraint and never use it. If I had, his instant Goryo's in hand would have wrecked me. He disfigures some stuff, but my density of hatebears is much too high. Game 3 was similar, had to decide whether to turn 1 Deathrite and risk Disfigure or turn 1 Noble Hierarch, but it didn't matter anyway as I just drew infinite hatebears.

Big Red: 2-0
Game 1 and 2 I waste his turn 1 Sandstone Needle. Game 1 that puts him on a super awkward double-CoT draw. He gets off a big mana turn with Seething Song but I have the clutch Force for whatever he tried to drop. Game 2 he mulls to 5, I double daze a turn 3 Inferno Titan. Clique him and see Sneak, Blood Moon, SSG and something else. Take away Blood Moon, establish enough of a board presence to let his next Blood Moon resolve with Force in hand and one basic forest. Sylvan Library into Swords Swords Krosan Grip, so I feel pretty good, and he doesn't find the fatty he needs (basically had to be Emrakul, which was a 2-of, given I could surprise Grip blood moon and Swords whatever else).

Loam Pox: 1-2
We each mulled to 5 in one game, so only game 3 really mattered. I never got more than one creature out, so Smallpox / Innocent Blood / Liliana was game. My strategy was effectively try to get a Jace out and just ride it to Ultimate, but he topdecks the one-of Maelstrom Pulse and ultimates Liliana. Really tough SB for this one between deciding between weenie route so his sac effects don't matter, or just go 4-mana or bust on one of my Planeswalkers and keep in counterspells for any answers. I went 4-mana or bust, got the Jace out, but post-SB he had tons of answers (Deed, another Pulse, etc.)

ID vs. Burn
I have no experience with this matchup, and I assumed it's a bit unfavored, so I took a somewhat risky draw that luckily played out. I'd love to hear people's thoughts, though, because a lot of people told me I was wrong.

Top 8: Loam Pox: 2-1
We each mulled to 5 in one game again, so only game 3 really mattered. Turn 1 Hierarch, Turn 2 Deathrite & Stoneforge meant I had a critical mass of creatures and mana producers, so I could fight through the hate. Finally he just makes a Dark Depths and Sylvan Library finds me the one-of Path for the win. Agonized over the SB again, I guess it worked, but I never actually cast any Walkers and they just rotted in my hand.

Top 4: Omni-Tell.
I know what he's on but still keep a stupid midrange hand game 1 out of some misguided sense of honor. Luckily my top card is Force. He turn 1 island ponder, I play Trop Hierarch. He plays turn 2 Ancient Tomb, which I waste (he thought I was on Infect from Trop -> Noble), so and he's stuck on one island. I Stoneforge, he Intuitions in response with the floated Tomb mana, I assume to find 3 lands, so I Force it. He lets Force resolve, then Forces my Stoneforge to save a clock. He shuffles with a Ponder, draws blank landwise. I basically have 3 turns to fade the 2 Islands / 1 Ancient Tomb he needs, but he topdecks the Ancient Tomb and wins immediately with S&T, Omni, Cunning Wish

Game 2 I mull a perfect midrange hand because that just can't win, no lands in my 6, perfect 5 of 2 lands, Flusterstorm, Canonist, Stoneforge with Meddling Mage as my scry. I unfortunately did not play the "make him have it" strategy, so I leave up Flusterstorm on turn 2 rather than jam Canonist, play Mage turn 3 (Show & Tell), Canonist turn 4. He cunning wishes for Pyroblast, then drops a Jace next turn, bounces Canonist, Pyroblasts the Meddling Mage, then casts Show & Tell. I have Sword of Fire and Ice and Canonist in hand. He's at 14 (Boseiju'd the S&T). I do incorrect expected value math and put in Sword, he Cunning Wishes for the win. I was thinking he has 5 cards in hand, if I put in Canonist he'll just ponder / Cunning Wish for some bounce, next turn I play SoFI and attack, then he bounces Canonist on his turn and goes off. I forgot that I get one extra attack in there since he can't cast another spell until next turn. My own fault for inexperience with the deck / Canonist. He beats Food Chain next round for the win.

Fun deck all around. I never got to activate a Stoneforge, which was disappointing. I don't feel these matches were normal enough to warrant any opinion on the Main or Side since when you play against 4 combo decks, having an 11 card SB against combo is pretty nice, but that doesn't seem very generalizable.

[tescrin]

I was thinking he has 5 cards in hand, if I put in Canonist he'll just ponder / Cunning Wish for some bounce, next turn I play SoFI and attack, then he bounces Canonist on his turn and goes off. I forgot that I get one extra attack in there since he can't cast another spell until next turn. My own fault for inexperience with the deck / Canonist.


Not true if I'm understanding the situation. They could Cunning wish in their turn and bounce in yours.

[KobeBryan]

Not true if I'm understanding the situation. They could Cunning wish in their turn and bounce in yours.

Once its bounced, he is free to cast.

[tescrin]

Once its bounced, he is free to cast.
I understand, I was talking about the first half of the sentence. Basically, he was thinking he had a mistake on his part where I think he was just in a losing position. He would never get the chance to swing if the Ponder/Cunning Wish grabbed a bounce because they're not restricted on his turn, meaning he'd get bounced (probably EoT) and then they'd go off. Now; it could go slightly better for him if he swings and gets the relevant card from the draw because they won't want to bounce in his turn until EoT or if they already have a hard counter, since he could re-cast at sorcery speed 2nd-main phase.

I was just clarifying that his first mistake he mentioned was likely the problem and not a mistake he made later; because the later mistake only matters against a player who isn't abusing instant-speed against Canonist.

[Kunfuzed]

My thinking was that he has 5 cards in hand, so he had to have something. He's at 14, I have Deathrite, Hierarch and Stoneforge in play, 3 Lands, and a Sword/Canonist in hand when he casts Show and Tell.

If I drop Canonist: He cunning wishes on my turn for Wipe Away (since he already S&T'd on his turn) and I swing him down to 7 or so (cast Sword on my turn (assuming no FoW) by tapping Noble and Deathrite to cast/equip, get Stoneforge 1 + 2 SoFI + 2 shock from SoFI + 2 Canonist). On his turn, he bounces Canonist and likely goes off. If he only has Ponder, he has to wait until HIS turn to Ponder, so I get a swing, then he can Cunning Wish on my turn, and I get another swing, bounce on his turn, then go off, which means I get 2 swings and win (unless he FoW's SoFI, in which case he can't Cunning Wish on my turn).

If I drop SoFI: I am basically betting he's on nothing but FoW, because he wins with Emrakul, Cunning Wish and most likely Ponder, but I avoid the risk of getting SoFI countered, so I guarantee a win in 2 swings. Additionally, I'll be playing Canonist next turn anyway (at risk of FoW), but that could limit him a bit.

It would be giving myself way too much credit to say I thought through even half of this in the moment, but it looks like my SoFI choice is pretty much never right. In reality, he had Cunning Wish, so I was dead either way.

[anwei]

The latter analysis mostly seems correct - Cunning Wish makes it moot, SOFI is only better if he has nothing at all and is going to be taking draws looking for anything, so that your +1 card matters a lot (but it is still better in that unlikely scenario). If he doesn't have Cunning Wish, he can beat Canonist with Emrakul, bounce, brainstorm->bounce, or FoW on SoFI (unless you draw something else relevant for 2 more damage). That's a reasonable number of outs, and he obviously had one of them, so you shouldn't feel terrible, but the SoFI advantaged scenarios are definitely fewer.

[limbo]

Continuing to have solid success and finding no seriously bad matchups. 3-1 or better for last 5 tournaments. Loving playing bant again. I am on 7 dork, 3 walker, no ponder, 19 land, 4 TNN, 2 clique. Sideboard in these colors is so good.

[Vandalize]

Sup guys, I've been playing UW Stoneblade for a while and I'd like to switch to Bant, because Tarmogoyf is a fucking boss. My lists seems really 2011ish, but I guess that's not a problem, since my online testing has been awesome.

List:
Lands [21]
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas

Creatures [18]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells [21]
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard [15]
3 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Fire anc Ice

I pretty much picked up my 2011 Bant Stoneblade list and removed Knight of the Reliquary for True-Name Nemesis for obvious reasons. I've not been using Deathrite Shaman, because it demands a tweak in the manabase (I like my basics). Tarmogoyf and True-Name Nemesis is great against Eldrazi.dec, which is the new broken Deck to Beat. Path to Exile is also GREAT, because few decks in Legacy run basic lands (except Miracles, in which you're not siding in Path anyways). I've also thought about adding that NO/Progenitus transformational sideboard, but I guess it's too cheesy for nowdays standards.

Any comments or suggestions?

[Jaytron]

Sup guys, I've been playing UW Stoneblade for a while and I'd like to switch to Bant, because Tarmogoyf is a fucking boss. My lists seems really 2011ish, but I guess that's not a problem, since my online testing has been awesome.

List:
Lands [21]
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas

Creatures [18]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells [21]
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard [15]
3 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Fire anc Ice

I pretty much picked up my 2011 Bant Stoneblade list and removed Knight of the Reliquary for True-Name Nemesis for obvious reasons. I've not been using Deathrite Shaman, because it demands a tweak in the manabase (I like my basics). Tarmogoyf and True-Name Nemesis is great against Eldrazi.dec, which is the new broken Deck to Beat. Path to Exile is also GREAT, because few decks in Legacy run basic lands (except Miracles, in which you're not siding in Path anyways). I've also thought about adding that NO/Progenitus transformational sideboard, but I guess it's too cheesy for nowdays standards.

Any comments or suggestions?

Bant Stoneblade popped up for a bit and was pretty successful on MTGO. http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/390450#online

I agree w/ the creature choices. DRS IMO, is too good not to run. I think I would also have Knight over V-clique

[KobeBryan]

Sup guys, I've been playing UW Stoneblade for a while and I'd like to switch to Bant, because Tarmogoyf is a fucking boss. My lists seems really 2011ish, but I guess that's not a problem, since my online testing has been awesome.

List:
Lands [21]
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas

Creatures [18]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique

Spells [21]
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard [15]
3 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Fire anc Ice

I pretty much picked up my 2011 Bant Stoneblade list and removed Knight of the Reliquary for True-Name Nemesis for obvious reasons. I've not been using Deathrite Shaman, because it demands a tweak in the manabase (I like my basics). Tarmogoyf and True-Name Nemesis is great against Eldrazi.dec, which is the new broken Deck to Beat. Path to Exile is also GREAT, because few decks in Legacy run basic lands (except Miracles, in which you're not siding in Path anyways). I've also thought about adding that NO/Progenitus transformational sideboard, but I guess it's too cheesy for nowdays standards.

Any comments or suggestions?

I'd try to up the blue count.

Drop a library, 1 SFM, and play ponders. With ponders, you may even be able to drop a land.

[Esper3k]

I'd try to up the blue count.

Drop a library, 1 SFM, and play ponders. With ponders, you may even be able to drop a land.

Plus some sorceries to feed the Goyf.

[limbo]

Gone 3-1 in my last 6 tournaments with my various Bant stoneblade decks. 5 of those 6 losses have come to a very card advantage oriented UR/Grixis Control player. I love sylvan library but I am going to try a painful truths in its place, as the library life loss has been prohibitive in that matchup. I think I can afford to give back that small margin against decks like miracles and lands to get a bit better against URx control. Thoughts on these two cards head-to-head are appreciated.

There is also a strong argument to be made that I should just put a fetchland in place of the basic forest (and if i do that, I should rebalance my fetches to have 4 flooded strands).

Current list:
Creature (17)
3x Deathrite Shaman
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x True-Name Nemesis
2x Vendilion Clique

Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares

Artifact (2)
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Sorcery (3)
1x Painful Truths
2x Ponder

Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Land (20)
2x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Scrubland
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Chill
2x Flusterstorm
1x Garruk Relentless Flip
1x Krosan Grip
2x Meddling Mage
1x Path to Exile
2x Rest in Peace
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Zealous Persecution

[Qweerios]

@Limbo

I play a similar list to yours and I have been trying all sorts of combinations of Bant. Here is what I can tell you:

Sylvan Library is superior to Painful Truth in many ways. First and foremost, if paying life is preventing your from using your Library, you will likely be prevented from casting your Truths. At least you get to use your Library as a Top every turn. Library also costs 2 mana which is very important in a mana dork deck packing Daze simply because it will always be on curve and 2 mana plays are already limited. Last but not least, having the right card at the right time is generally more beneficial in Legacy than having more cards than your opponent. Miracles and Shardless/Jund are about the only matchups I can think of where you really need to go above and beyond in card advantage to stay in the game and those matchups tend to allow Jaces to come down in a timely fashion. However, even in grindy matchups where you want to keep up with card advantage you are always looking for the same cards to win: Nemesis or Stoneforge attrition.

This brings me to my next point: Clique vs. ponder. I think that Ponder is good in every Brainstorn deck and having a consistent deck with a consistent sideboard is key to successful deck. The fact that we play mana dorks seems to be associated with a need to apply pressure as quickly as possible which I entirely disagree with. Getting early mana means you get to play your cards quicker than your opponent. I see more benefit in the long run by using my T1 dork for T2 Ponder into Waste+Plowshares or SFM than laying down a 3 mana Delver with a cycling ability. Overall I've never had much success with additional 3drops other than KotR. Unfortunately the card isn't blue and isn't better than our other non-blue alternatives IMO.

Lastly, as I've probably mentionnes before, Deathrite is way better than Hierarch and a healthy amount of Abrupt Decay is crucial. Therefore if you are to cut a dork I highly suggest Noble. I've found that I can support DRS and a 2-4 Decays between main and side with only 2 black sources. Also, in your list the only green dual you care about is Tropical Island and with your current dual land configuration (same as mine) you can only fetch all of your dual lands with Flooded and Delta.I would ditch the Forest of I were you, it isn't necessary and it leads you in a bad direction.

[Qweerios]

Sorry for the double post but I can't see what I write on my phone if the text is too long.

Speaking of cutting a mana dork, I have been contemplating going down to 3 Nobles myself. Drawing multiples can be underwhelming and if my card isn't removal worthy, it probably isn't good enough (unlike DRS). Perhaps a second Library or moving SoFaI to the mainboard as an additional mana sink (aside from Bskull). Or maybe moving the 3rd Abrupt Decay mainboard would also be a good idea. As of now I tend to struggle against Counterbalance and Chalice preboard with only 2 Decays mainboard they can really ruin some hands. Even 3 Decays postboard has not been cutting it against Miracles lately as I've been needing a supplemental KGrip and/or Council's Judgment as well.

Another thing that has been on my mind is Jace as a mainboard card. I find it difficult to justify for g1 as one of our blue cards. The combo matchup g1 isn't the best and most of pur blue cards should remain for g2. Given that Nemesis has to go, Jace makes the blue count terrible postboard. Also, Jace along with Daze when Library and Painful Truths are available seems a little off.

The more I tweak this deck the more it gets stuck between Deathblade and Bant aggro. I always want Daze over Thoughtseize to keep the deck functional but I also need the black and green splash for Decay and DRS. There also needs to be more than 4 mana dorks to be resilient to Wasteland and be able to splash all those colors. In the end I think both decks want to accomplish the same things.

[Vandalize]

Yeah, I was feeling my list was a little blue-light for FoW fodder. I've added the Ponders to the mix too.

Lands [20]
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas

Creatures [17]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells [23]
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard [15]
3 Meddling Mage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Krosan Grip
2 Path to Exile
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Rest in Peace
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Flusterstorm

What do you guys think? Is it good enough to steal some wins?

[Qweerios]

It's probably good enough to win some games since it only plays good cards. The most obvious change I would make is add the 4th Ponder for Goyf instead of maybe Clique or a TNN. You have so many threats and such a low blue count for FoW.

Most importantly, your deck is cold to Counterbalance.

Overall if you want to go all out aggro I think the GSZ approach with KotR is better than Goyf.

[Vandalize]

It's probably good enough to win some games since it only plays good cards. The most obvious change I would make is add the 4th Ponder for Goyf instead of maybe Clique or a TNN. You have so many threats and such a low blue count for FoW.

Most importantly, your deck is cold to Counterbalance.

Overall if you want to go all out aggro I think the GSZ approach with KotR is better than Goyf.

Playing GSZ requires to play some 1-of silver bullets like Qasali Pridemage and Scavenging Ooze (and Dryad Arbor). Playing KotR would need something like 22 lands, and some utility lands are also valuable. GW Maverick has trouble fitting these in the 60 main, Bant would be even harder with all that blue package (even worse with Ponders) :P

I've been happy with the Tarmogoyfs. They beat fast and they stall the board when you need it. KotR needs more time to build up beef and is kinda bad against an active Deathrite Shaman.

Counterbalance is hard, but I guess Miracles is a bad matchup no matter what. The only viable Force of Will targets are: Sensei's Top, Terminus and Jace. Sideboard doesn't help much in Bant colors (outside of KGrip).

[Seraphix]

Playing GSZ requires to play some 1-of silver bullets like Qasali Pridemage and Scavenging Ooze (and Dryad Arbor). Playing KotR would need something like 22 lands, and some utility lands are also valuable. GW Maverick has trouble fitting these in the 60 main, Bant would be even harder with all that blue package (even worse with Ponders) :P

I've been happy with the Tarmogoyfs. They beat fast and they stall the board when you need it. KotR needs more time to build up beef and is kinda bad against an active Deathrite Shaman.

Counterbalance is hard, but I guess Miracles is a bad matchup no matter what. The only viable Force of Will targets are: Sensei's Top, Terminus and Jace. Sideboard doesn't help much in Bant colors (outside of KGrip).

You can fit a GSZ package, 22 lands (incl. Arbor), and still have at least 17 Blue cards for FoW.

GSZ is solid against Counterbalance since you can pay as much as you want and tutor Disenchant bears. Engineered Explosives can also get around Counterbalance. Krosan Grip/Abrupt Decay are the surest answers though.

[tescrin]

posts about his lists

I had a list like yours at the top there but minus SFM and + various experiments i was doing. I was pretty happy with it. DSphere is a reasonable way to get rid of CB since they usually can't float a 3-drop.

The only reason I'm experimenting with KotR right now is that he is:
* Pretty fun
* boss against Eldrazi
* It's been years

Goyf was doing his goyf thing. I think the KotR side of things enjoys having the extra mana-dudes where as the Goyf side happily gets to add more real cards. on top of less lands. Consider D-Spheres in the main for CB so you don't have to go 4-color and you'll do fine enough. CB Locks are only 1/6th or less of your games, before you consider counters, D-Spheres, or just winning through it. People are more scared of the lock than they need to be IMO.

If the last couple years of Miracles being obnoxious has taught me anything; it's that Grixis and Bant and other non-GB decks can do fine against it purely on the back of landing obnoxious threats and using countermagic at the appropriate time.

[KobeBryan]

Playing GSZ requires to play some 1-of silver bullets like Qasali Pridemage and Scavenging Ooze (and Dryad Arbor). Playing KotR would need something like 22 lands, and some utility lands are also valuable. GW Maverick has trouble fitting these in the 60 main, Bant would be even harder with all that blue package (even worse with Ponders) :P

I've been happy with the Tarmogoyfs. They beat fast and they stall the board when you need it. KotR needs more time to build up beef and is kinda bad against an active Deathrite Shaman.

Counterbalance is hard, but I guess Miracles is a bad matchup no matter what. The only viable Force of Will targets are: Sensei's Top, Terminus and Jace. Sideboard doesn't help much in Bant colors (outside of KGrip).

You have a very very good chance at beating miracles. Its definitely no less than 50/50

[tescrin]

You have a very very good chance at beating miracles. Its definitely no less than 50/50
[sorry if you see this as an inappropriate quote; it's more in response to the guy you quoted but w/e]

I find it odd that he implied CB is a bad force target. I guess they'll normally drop it with protection? Meh. Honestly, if you're on a Daze variant, you can get a free turn or two out of miracles simply because they have to play it safe with things if they don't have multiple copies. Saving your Force for Terminus while dazing a CB, for example, is really bad news for them. TNN causes them to dig for Terminus or win *now*, especially if you have a Sword/Jitte around. Combining KotR, TNN, and Batterskull as "answer nows" with your own counters, and the occasional Clique interaction and you can have a reasonable MU.

IMO; just have a couple silver bullets in the side like Needle, maybe Decays if you feel you need them, concede when you're too behind to come back, and just learn how to play around CB best as you can. If you have a lot of troubles; Cataclysm is good. Leaves a threat on the table, kills most of their stuff and gives you 3-4 turns to get back in the game unless they already have Mentor out.

[KobeBryan]

[sorry if you see this as an inappropriate quote; it's more in response to the guy you quoted but w/e]

I find it odd that he implied CB is a bad force target. I guess they'll normally drop it with protection? Meh. Honestly, if you're on a Daze variant, you can get a free turn or two out of miracles simply because they have to play it safe with things if they don't have multiple copies. Saving your Force for Terminus while dazing a CB, for example, is really bad news for them. TNN causes them to dig for Terminus or win *now*, especially if you have a Sword/Jitte around. Combining KotR, TNN, and Batterskull as "answer nows" with your own counters, and the occasional Clique interaction and you can have a reasonable MU.

IMO; just have a couple silver bullets in the side like Needle, maybe Decays if you feel you need them, concede when you're too behind to come back, and just learn how to play around CB best as you can. If you have a lot of troubles; Cataclysm is good. Leaves a threat on the table, kills most of their stuff and gives you 3-4 turns to get back in the game unless they already have Mentor out.

I think you may be wrong about the miracles matchup.

True with game 1 you have daze, which buys you a couple of turns. But Daze should not be a card you should play in game 2.

You should not be countering terminus. You have enough shuffle effects to bring the cards back to the top. . They will welcome it if you force a terminus. You force them to use their counters on your slow supply of creatures you drop on an empty board.

That way when they are prepared to play their win con, ie. jace, entreat, or mentor, you have a counter to stop their win con. They will not have the counters to win a counter war.

Of course if you are going to play a game changer such as an elspeth, garruck, sylvan library, winter orb, that may be a good time to fight a counter war.

[Qweerios]

Has anyone tried manlands? The new UG Hexproof or Creeping Tar Pit sounds great as a mana sink or with Exalted triggers.

[anwei]

I've been considering an interesting comment on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/4iqlo9/can_someone_explain_to_me_why_elfball_lands_has/d30nnmv) concerning the Elves+Maverick mashup that made Top 8 of BOM with 77 cards maindeck. (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12303&d=270939&f=LE) Obviously, good cards + good pilot can just get there sometimes, no matter how loose the list is, but playing >>60 cards may have some merit.

Tutor+bullet-heavy decks that aren't as concerned with particular 4-offs might benefit from the trade-off. A combo or Delver deck wants to maximize its best cards, and would happily play >4 Delvers or Show and Tells if possible, but that's much less true in Bant.
I regularly play Zenith+Knight Bant lists where there aren't many cards I'd want 5+ of (maybe only brainstorm?). Many 4's (Zenith, Force, Stoneforge, Daze, Waste) I regularly play or consider 3, and others (Fetches, Hierarch, StP (to a lesser extent)) have comparable replacements. Meanwhile, I often am playing or considering cards that I like having available as tutor targets (for GSZ, Knight, sometimes E Tutor, and sometimes Crop Rotation) but don't want to see in many match-ups. A single Teeg or Ooze earns its primary utility from being in the deck, not being found.

To put another way, a 60-card deck is limited by (a) playing cards in discrete increments of about 2% of the deck, (b) being unable <2% of any one card, and (c) maxes out at 7% deck-share of an often-wanted. If given the ability, I'd love to play a deck with .1% Teeg (and Ooze and Sigarda) in every Bant maindeck if I got to keep my 7% GSZ to find it against Storm. Obviously that's not possible, but going beyond 60 could allow those numbers to slide a bit without a huge hit on the best cards. Playing (for example) 77 drops Teeg's deck-share from 1.7% to 1.3% and GSZ from 6.7% to 5%. The 5% is about the same as 3x in a 60 card deck.

In considering actually trying this (probably with Retreat), maybe aiming at 70ish, losing 2% of my Brainstorms is the most significant loss. I have many cards that I keep right on the edge between two choices (3/4 FoW, 3/4 GSZ, 2/3 Daze, 3/4 Retreat, 2/3 Wasteland, 4/5 Dorks, 8/9 fetches, 2/3 Tundra) that I can easily bump up. This minimizes the prevalence of bad-draw tutor targets (especially combo-turn lands), improves the manabase overall (as targets drop and redundant Tundras increase), I can opens up a couple slots for more targets, doesn't disrupt anything too central (I've considered 3x of all of Knight, GSZ, Retreat, STP, and FoW in the past), and probably increases the threat percentage, since the few non-threats are being added.

Sample List:
Lands (27)
3 Trop
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Maze of Ith

Guys (18)
4 Hierarch
1 Bird of Paradise
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 KotR
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 JTMS

Spells (27)
4 GSZ
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce

Most percents are roughly the same: threats rise by a couple, counters drop by a bit, and the amount of drawing-things-not-good-in-this-match is probably quite similar while having more targets available (scooze, maze, Rafiq). I could probably push this further with things like Trygon Predator or another Teeg.

Anyway, interested to hear any thoughts. It seems like, if it's a worthwhile strategy, doing so in a deck with several tutoring engines and a very light splash is a good place to try.

[Qweerios]

How does this affect the sideboard though? Doesn't it make it less effective?

[anwei]

Good point - particularly for cards like Flusterstorm that I really want to see and see early. I would say, (a) so much of my sideboard is made of land/GSZ targets which affected, but already way ahead of non-tutoring decks (a GSZ target at 5 virtual copies is 6.7% of my deck, worse than 8.3% of 60 but better than 1.7% as a singleton), and (b) access to maindeck Maze/Sigarda/Ooze can (hopefully) help make up for that.

In reality, my GSZ+Knight boarding strategy is so often delay-with-counters until silver-bullet dependent that going further this direction isn't bad, and might be quite strong. I probably board a few more counters, 3ish more utility cards (K Grip, EE, Staticaster), 1-2 E Tutor, and like 7-9 tutor targets.

[Qweerios]

That 1 Ponder sticks out like a sore thumb. How do you justify playing more than 60 cards and using a 1of card that is most effective in a 60 card deck. If anything it would seem to me like you would want either zero Ponders because you prioritize tutors or 4 Ponders because it increases manipulation while you are not bothered by going to, say, 73 cards.

[tescrin]

True with game 1 you have daze, which buys you a couple of turns. But Daze should not be a card you should play in game 2.

That way when they are prepared to play their win con, ie. jace, entreat, or mentor, you have a counter to stop their win con. They will not have the counters to win a counter war.

Disclaimer: Not tons of Exp with bant, especially traditional bant. I started with a lot of goofy builds for fun and am often in other colors.

I guess it depends on your board/hand. I'd rather keep a TNN that says "F U" to everything but Terminus, and force the terminus (making them find a second one when they're often down to playing three); than not, play a Knight, have it plowed, play a Hierarch, and get jaced. If they Jace while you have a TNN out they aren't getting much out of him. In terms of the board; certainly you'd force it if you have lethal next turn as you're nigh guaranteed the win.

[KobeBryan]

Disclaimer: Not tons of Exp with bant, especially traditional bant. I started with a lot of goofy builds for fun and am often in other colors.

I guess it depends on your board/hand. I'd rather keep a TNN that says "F U" to everything but Terminus, and force the terminus (making them find a second one when they're often down to playing three); than not, play a Knight, have it plowed, play a Hierarch, and get jaced. If they Jace while you have a TNN out they aren't getting much out of him. In terms of the board; certainly you'd force it if you have lethal next turn as you're nigh guaranteed the win.

Well of course there are circumstances where you would protect the TNN as you described.

But we are talking in general. And that is how you should be playing the matchup. Magic isn't a flow chart type game and you shouldn't be playing like it either.

[anwei]

That 1 Ponder sticks out like a sore thumb. How do you justify playing more than 60 cards and using a 1of card that is most effective in a 60 card deck. If anything it would seem to me like you would want either zero Ponders because you prioritize tutors or 4 Ponders because it increases manipulation while you are not bothered by going to, say, 73 cards.

Sure, I don't have good arguments for it. It was included there as a starting point attempt to scale up 60->70ish on similar functional proportions, to try to play a deck with a similar breakdown of cards while having (in particular) an increase of threat diversity. I initially added a 5th dork, 5th cantrip, and Misdirection (as 5th FoW; now cut) to keep about the same distribution of stuff.

As a find-a-particular-need card, it's obviously cross-purposes with the experiment. For broadly finding certain types of cards among lots of redundancy, it should work similarly in a larger deck.
More often though, I evaluate Ponder in my Bant decks by my curve - do I want to be playing this card in the first few turns of the game? Can I afford to go looking for a threat and miss (the chief weakness vs. GSZ)? Would I rather have another Library, first, for a higher power ceiling?
In this deck, 4 Ponders is clunky enough in curving out threats that I think you're right: it has no place as at 4x, as the cantrip shell runs lean/redundant. I need a good amount of selection, but don't want the 2nd Library with 2 Jace / 4 Retreat.

(Thinking about Ponder reminds me of a Japanese list I'm not sure I linked, featuring 4 Knight, 3 Retreat, 4 Monastery Mentor, 3 Ponder, 3 SDT (http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD04424S/). Can dig for Knight combo or Monk them out. I'd try it if I had Caverns.)

[tescrin]

I tried mentor in a Shardless Bant build and had trouble having enough spells for him even after successful recalls. I don't think it's like Pyro where just having 30 spells (or w/e) is enough; since Pyro comes down a full turn earlier with a dude for instant value.

I haven't tried KotR Combo but I feel like adding 3-drops that don't do much unless you untap with KotR should just be Equips. Untapping with KotR is often game anyway, though I can see the argument for "lol I win."

I wouldn't worry about card 61. Card 62 is different IMO as your land proportions can't justify the extra card. However, 61 is essentially, IMO, slicing a land in half, so I don't mind it. Want to play with 20.5 lands? run 61 and 21 lands. (or whatever.) The stats work out roughly in that direction. Maybe it's still dumb but honestly the statistics at that point are so small I'd rather have my 3rd Equip, 2nd Game-over card, or 4th Force or 16th Sideboard. If you're running 4 Brainstorm 3-4 Ponder, that 61st card can't hurt you too badly.

Again, 62 is where the slippery slope part occurs (IMO), because if you add 2-3 cards your land base starts requiring you add more lands, which defeats the purpose of adding more impact cards to the list.

[anwei]

I tried mentor in a Shardless Bant build and had trouble having enough spells for him even after successful recalls. I don't think it's like Pyro where just having 30 spells (or w/e) is enough; since Pyro comes down a full turn earlier with a dude for instant value.
When running a Retreat list, it's theoretically nice to have another compact, non-grave-dependant finisher that can still get value if immediately decayed and can "combo" with SDT, which is also good at digging if you need combo pieces. It probably plays more like in Miracles than Pyromancer in Grixis.



I haven't tried KotR Combo but I feel like adding 3-drops that don't do much unless you untap with KotR should just be Equips. Untapping with KotR is often game anyway, though I can see the argument for "lol I win."
Against the midrange decks (where you really want the combo), 3+ turns that it takes Knight to close matter enough that it's as strategically substantive.



I wouldn't worry about card 61. Card 62 is different IMO as your land proportions can't justify the extra card. However, 61 is essentially, IMO, slicing a land in half, so I don't mind it. Want to play with 20.5 lands? run 61 and 21 lands. (or whatever.) The stats work out roughly in that direction. Maybe it's still dumb but honestly the statistics at that point are so small I'd rather have my 3rd Equip, 2nd Game-over card, or 4th Force or 16th Sideboard. If you're running 4 Brainstorm 3-4 Ponder, that 61st card can't hurt you too badly.

Again, 62 is where the slippery slope part occurs (IMO), because if you add 2-3 cards your land base starts requiring you add more lands, which defeats the purpose of adding more impact cards to the list.

The discussion was pertaining to Ponder as the 72nd card, not 61st.

[limbo]

Just a quick update on my list iterating. I split the finals of a 20 person legacy GPT yesterday, losing my first game of the day and no others. This deck has simply outstanding matchups against some of the best decks in the metagame right now. We have a very strong lands player who has all but given up on the matchup. Elves and storm (ANT and TES) are equally hopeless for the opponent. Game 1's are pretty even but Bant is hugely favored post-board. Miracles has game but they have a hard time dealing with the 3 drops and equipment, and I am on a 5-1 run against them as well, so while I am sure the matchup isn't that good, it also isn't bad. I have finally also found a sideboard I like against grixis control and delver as well. A good cabal therapy draw can still be a problem, but otherwise it also feels pretty good. There isn't anything innovative here, just been working through a bunch of games, different configurations, card pairings, and game plans to find where I want to be. Give this configuration a try, the work behind it is solid.

GPT:
R1) Lands W 2-1
R2) UWR Delver W2-0
R3) Goblins W2-0
R4) Chaos Elves - ID - went and got food rather than playing. beat him 2-0 last week.
R5) RUG Delver - ID - won 2-0 in fun games while we waited for Top 8

Top8) Grixis Delver W2-0
Top4) TES W2-0
Finals) Split w/ Eldrazi


List
Creature (17)
3x Deathrite Shaman
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x True-Name Nemesis
2x Vendilion Clique

Instant (16)
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Swords to Plowshares

Sorcery (1)
1x Ponder

Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library

Planeswalker (2)
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifact (3)
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Land (20)
2x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Scrubland
3x Tropical Island
2x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath

Sideboard (15)
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Flusterstorm
1x Invasive Surgery
1x Krosan Grip
2x Meddling Mage
1x Path to Exile
1x Rest in Peace
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Zealous Persecution

Board notes: 1 flusterstorm could become a second invasive surgery and if you did that, one surgical could become a second abrupt decay. I don't have plans of messing with it beyond that until someone gives me a good reason to do so.

[Qweerios]

I have been having similar results across at my weekly legacy event with a similar list. Here are my questions and concerns:





How was Invasive Surgery? I was thinking about adding one to my pair of Flusterstorm as I have always been a fan of a single Envelop. Do you ever reach delirium?





I am really a fan of T1 Trop, T2 Scrub and T3 Tundra and I play a bit more black cards (2-3 Decays main and 4/3 DRS /Noble split) so I need a second black source. So far 2 black sources has been enough to support 3 Decays and 4 DRS main. Do you think the basic Forest and the terrible fetchland configuration it brings with it is necessary?





Speaking of Decay mainboard, when I lose to Miracles or Eldrazi it is often because of an unanswered Chalice or Counterbalance. I think Eldrazi is a good matchup (4-1 match scores) as I have beaten it several times but I still sometimes struggle against Miracles and Eldrazi despite playing a few Decays main. Have you had this experience? My solution has been to complement my mainboard Decays with 1-2 SB Council's Judgment. It is a reasonable answer to Chalice and Counterbalance while also being good against big Eldrazi creaturea and Jace. The card is also great against opposing Nemesis and has been replacing Zealous Persecution against DnT.





On to Zealous Persecution, I think DnT is already very favorable and the only other deck it greatly helps against is Elves which we already have plenty of tools against (Canonist, SFM/Jitte, Surgery, FoW, Meddling Mage). Have you been using it much?





I have been rocking my Jaces in the SB and I rarely get to play them because whenever I play a fair matchup, SFM and Nemesis get there. I find it difficult to justify a 4drop in a Daze deck with such a low blue count that already includes 4 Nemesis that will need to get sided out when FoW is most relevant. I am of the opinion that Ponder is the better mainboard/core card. Have you tried without Jace mainboard? Do you think he is essential?





I have been pondering the inclusion of SoFaI in the main but I have always hated it as a mainboard card when I played Blade Control. The only matchups I really want this card against G1 are Miracles and Shardless BUG. What is your experience with the card like so far? Should I shave a Ponder or a Decay for it?



If I may suggest you a SB change it would be Enlightened Tutor, Grafdigger's Cage, and Pithing Needle over 1 Canonist, and 2 Surgicals.

[anwei]

How was Invasive Surgery? I was thinking about adding one to my pair of Flusterstorm as I have always been a fan of a single Envelop. Do you ever reach delirium?

I might be an outlier on this, but I regularly board in Envelop against Shardless and Miracles to catch Hymn/Visions/Pulse/Deluge and (especially) Terminus. While I don't think it's likely to hit delirium in typical combo match-ups, I'd bet that it's much more common in these, particularly in equipment+Ponder lists. Extracting (e.g.) hymn isn't that exciting, but free information and possibly grabbing duplicate copies in hand is good and hitting Terminus seems fantastic.



I have been pondering the inclusion of SoFaI in the main but I have always hated it as a mainboard card when I played Blade Control. The only matchups I really want this card against G1 are Miracles and Shardless BUG. What is your experience with the card like so far? Should I shave a Ponder or a Decay for it? Don't forget combo - it's my overall first choice, depending on the match and board state.

[limbo]

I have been having similar results across at my weekly legacy event with a similar list. Here are my questions and concerns:

How was Invasive Surgery? I was thinking about adding one to my pair of Flusterstorm as I have always been a fan of a single Envelop. Do you ever reach delirium?

I like invasive surgery a lot. Lands, storm, and miracles are all regular decks in my metagame, and invasive is an upgrade from envelop. I do routinely hit delirium, as the maindeck includes 7 card types.


I am really a fan of T1 Trop, T2 Scrub and T3 Tundra and I play a bit more black cards (2-3 Decays main and 4/3 DRS /Noble split) so I need a second black source. So far 2 black sources has been enough to support 3 Decays and 4 DRS main. Do you think the basic Forest and the terrible fetchland configuration it brings with it is necessary?

I like two black sources to preserve deathrite activations main deck and enable the plethora of black cards post board.

Terrible is a bit of a stretch, as there is only 1 land of 8 that each fetch can't get. It does take a minute to figure out your land sequences on occasion. I have liked the basic in situations where I want to increase my likelihood of sticking a T2 3-drop, effectively turning off wasteland (common), and when I fear blood moon/ back to basics (more rare). I also like that it protects my ability to play Krosan grip against blood moon and removal decks, like miracles, or decks with wasteland and hate pieces, like eldrazi. I mulligan on occasion because of the forest.

I guess the simple answer is I am comfortable with this configuration and haven't found a good reason to change it.

Are you currently on 4 strand, 4 delta, 3 trop, 3 tundra, 1 sea, 1 scrub, 4 waste?



Speaking of Decay mainboard, when I lose to Miracles or Eldrazi it is often because of an unanswered Chalice or Counterbalance. I think Eldrazi is a good matchup (4-1 match scores) as I have beaten it several times but I still sometimes struggle against Miracles and Eldrazi despite playing a few Decays main. Have you had this experience? My solution has been to complement my mainboard Decays with 1-2 SB Council's Judgment. It is a reasonable answer to Chalice and Counterbalance while also being good against big Eldrazi creaturea and Jace. The card is also great against opposing Nemesis and has been replacing Zealous Persecution against DnT.


Miracles is one of the matchups where Jace and SoFaI really shine. Dropping pressure on T2 and protecting it has served me well in this matchup. I don't actually like attacking their counterbalances in game 1, I just work on my primary game plan. When they set up a counter-top I work to sneak in a 2, 3, or 4 drop. They are relatively answer poor in game 1 against TNN or Jace, especially if backed up by counters or clique. Post board, when some number of counters and often a jitte are cut, it is easy to find room for a decay and grip, just in case, but they are rarely the cards I want to see.

I only run 3 white sources, not counting dorks, and don't love 3 mana sorcery speed removal. I find mana can be a bottleneck, even with 7 dorks (also one reason I go to 4 noble before 4 deathrite), so I want my postboard answers to be very mana efficient.


On to Zealous Persecution, I think DnT is already very favorable and the only other deck it greatly helps against is Elves which we already have plenty of tools against (Canonist, SFM/Jitte, Surgery, FoW, Meddling Mage). Have you been using it much?


Yes. It is my favorite sideboard card. It is of course good against creature decks: taxes, elves, goblins, TNN-mirrors, young pyromancer decks, and occasionally mentor decks. It is also outstanding against TES, and often a 1 of against ANT or RUG Delver. Since abrupt decay changed the format, going wide is a more common strategy, and ZP is outstanding there. I also allows you to get combat blowouts or (normally in G3 after showing it in G2) give you the ability to perform extremely good bluffs. It is the only reasonable one-sided sweeper available to us, and since we invest a lot of resources into our own creatures but can't truly go wide, I won't leave home without it.


I have been rocking my Jaces in the SB and I rarely get to play them because whenever I play a fair matchup, SFM and Nemesis get there. I find it difficult to justify a 4drop in a Daze deck with such a low blue count that already includes 4 Nemesis that will need to get sided out when FoW is most relevant. I am of the opinion that Ponder is the better mainboard/core card. Have you tried without Jace mainboard? Do you think he is essential?


I have played with between 2 and 5 planeswalkers in my 75, up to 4 in the main at once. I have not gone below 1 jace main deck, as I really do love it against miracles and shardless and as an alternative win con against lock decks like lands, stax, pox, etc.

I have 21 main and 5 sideboard blue cards, so I have not had significant difficulty with casting FoW.

I also rather like daze to allow for aggressively playing 3 drops on 2 or 4 drops on 3. The "wow, you play daze" blowout is real. The mana dorks in the deck serve a dual purpose, they do allow us to play bigger more aggressive threats earlier, but they also allow us to leverage mana advantage, and daze is outstanding at that. It is quite easy to put your opponents in a situation where daze becomes live, and dorks allow us to recover quickly from the resource loss when casting daze.

On the point of ponder, what I found in the early iterations of this deck, including up to 3 ponders, is that this deck loses when it gets out card advantaged. Miracles, shardless and grixis all grind out cards and eventually bleed you dry of resources. Ponder doesn't help there, but a card like Jace really does. Does jace often get thrown away to a FoW in G1, yes absolutely. I keep Jace because I view the deck as a traditional midrange stoneblade deck. Bant aggro/tempo simply doesn't get it done but bant is an outstanding color combination for adapting to your opponents.

I will concede that when I don't play SoFaI, ponder is my go to replacement.


I have been pondering the inclusion of SoFaI in the main but I have always hated it as a mainboard card when I played Blade Control. The only matchups I really want this card against G1 are Miracles and Shardless BUG. What is your experience with the card like so far? Should I shave a Ponder or a Decay for it?


Again, I look at SoFaI as a card advantage source. I have played without it about half the time. The decks I had the most trouble with were the grixis decks, and it is outstanding against them, so I have brought it back. It is often my go to equipment against Lands as well. The three equipment draw is occasionally a problem. It doubles as removal, so if I were going to cut a card from your deck for it, I would cut a decay first.


If I may suggest you a SB change it would be Enlightened Tutor, Grafdigger's Cage, and Pithing Needle over 1 Canonist, and 2 Surgicals.
I have used tutor packages a bunch in D&T. I don't think cage or needle fill needed areas of concern, but I will think about it. I like the surgicals against lands, and I like that they don't interfere with deathrite (like RiP).

[Qweerios]

Are you currently on 4 strand, 4 delta, 3 trop, 3 tundra, 1 sea, 1 scrub, 4 waste?



-Yes minus 1 Tundra. I was thinking about maybe adding a Windswept Heath if I end up lowering the Ponder count. I am hesitant on the inclusion of a 20th land because I have given up on Clique mainboard and I am still on the fence about Jace. I have considered going down to 2 Trops in favor of the 9th fetch as well. Why do you even bother playing Scrubland if you only have 2 sources that can fetch it? I find USea to be the worst black land to fetch and only get it when I can't get Scrubland. I think replacing 2 Flooded with the 3rd and 4th Windswept would make your manabase more balanced and reliable with an even distribution of USea and Scrub fetches, and even more Forest availability.



Miracles is one of the matchups where Jace and SoFaI really shine. Dropping pressure on T2 and protecting it has served me well in this matchup. I don't actually like attacking their counterbalances in game 1, I just work on my primary game plan. When they set up a counter-top I work to sneak in a 2, 3, or 4 drop. They are relatively answer poor in game 1 against TNN or Jace, especially if backed up by counters or clique. Post board, when some number of counters and often a jitte are cut, it is easy to find room for a decay and grip, just in case, but they are rarely the cards I want to see.



-I haven't had the luxury of sneaking many cards past Counterbalance. Miracle players around here tend to set it all up by T3 and always manage at least 1 Terminus to stabilize. Even postboard with Jaces, SoFaI, and 3 Decays I've lost games due to CB. I always have lots to bring in and side out all my Daze, StP, Jitte, and some Wasteland.



I only run 3 white sources, not counting dorks, and don't love 3 mana sorcery speed removal. I find mana can be a bottleneck, even with 7 dorks (also one reason I go to 4 noble before 4 deathrite), so I want my postboard answers to be very mana efficient.



-In the matchups where Judgment is applicable I rarely find mana efficiency to be a main concern. It is usually more a question of "do I have an answer for this type of pressure". While I do agree that double white mana can be a stretch, most of the Wastelands directes at me tend to aim at other color sources.



Yes. It is my favorite sideboard card. It is of course good against creature decks: taxes, elves, goblins, TNN-mirrors, young pyromancer decks, and occasionally mentor decks. It is also outstanding against TES, and often a 1 of against ANT or RUG Delver. Since abrupt decay changed the format, going wide is a more common strategy, and ZP is outstanding there. I also allows you to get combat blowouts or (normally in G3 after showing it in G2) give you the ability to perform extremely good bluffs. It is the only reasonable one-sided sweeper available to us, and since we invest a lot of resources into our own creatures but can't truly go wide, I won't leave home without it.



-Interesting... I don't personally think Goblins or DnT need help from the sideboard. While it is true that ZP is outstanding in those matchups, I feel like they are nearly impossible to lose. As for other TNN decks, I rarely play against other Hierarch/TNN decks and the other ones (Deathblade and Esper/Jeskai Blade) I would rather have Judgment instead. As for Pyromancer decks I only consider Grixis Delver and I don't even bother siding ZP in because I've never had a Pyromancer get out of control postboard against StP/Decay/SFM and the other Grixis threats don't care for ZP anyway. Finally against Storm I preffer StP as a Xantid swarm answer because the mana cost difference is day and night. For Empty the Warrens, Batterskull is usually enough.



I have played with between 2 and 5 planeswalkers in my 75, up to 4 in the main at once. I have not gone below 1 jace main deck, as I really do love it against miracles and shardless and as an alternative win con against lock decks like lands, stax, pox, etc.



-Stax and Pox aren't on my radar but I am quite certain that mana dork decks with counterspells love Pox. Shardless and Miracles are exactly why I want Jace. I feel like 2 matchups is not enough to justify him mainboard but it is true that they are both well represented and difficult matchups. I don't bring Jace in against Lands because of PFire, is that a mistake?



On the point of ponder, what I found in the early iterations of this deck, including up to 3 ponders, is that this deck loses when it gets out card advantaged. Miracles, shardless and grixis all grind out cards and eventually bleed you dry of resources. Ponder doesn't help there, but a card like Jace really does. Does jace often get thrown away to a FoW in G1, yes absolutely. I keep Jace because I view the deck as a traditional midrange stoneblade deck. Bant aggro/tempo simply doesn't get it done but bant is an outstanding color combination for adapting to your opponents.



-I completely agree with Jace being a solution to our weakness in those matchups. What I like about Ponder is its universality as a mainboard card compared to Jace's more narrow application. I find that in a lot of matchups G1 digging for FoW/Daze is your only strategy and having lots of creatures and removal can be detrimental. I also get more mileage out of my SB with Ponders main than Jace main. I don't know if you understand but I feel like shaving Ponder for Jace is like Shaving a Ponder for a Sylvan Library in RUG Delver as a concession to its worst matchup.



Again, I look at SoFaI as a card advantage source. I have played without it about half the time. The decks I had the most trouble with were the grixis decks, and it is outstanding against them, so I have brought it back. It is often my go to equipment against Lands as well. The three equipment draw is occasionally a problem. It doubles as removal, so if I were going to cut a card from your deck for it, I would cut a decay first.



-I will try to replace a Decay or a Ponder with SoFaI mainboard.



I have used tutor packages a bunch in D&T. I don't think cage or needle fill needed areas of concern, but I will think about it. I like the surgicals against lands, and I like that they don't interfere with deathrite (like RiP).



-I think needle is essential against Miracle and Lands. This single card has so much application as a singleton even without ETutor. As for Cage, I really appreciate it against Elves and GY decks other than Lands. It also has a surprisingly big impact on Green Sun/Cabal Therapy decks like Nic Fit, Aluren, and the popular Pod decks

[limbo]

... because I have given up on Clique mainboard ...
If you are playing without Clique, Jace and SoFaI, I can see why the control decks are giving you a hard time (Miracles, lands, shardless).
What matchups do you think the lower curve and extra aggression is helping you with? A super low curve and mana dorks are a little bit at odds unless you are playing multiple cards a turn, but without real card advantage I don't see how you get ahead and sustain your tempo.


I haven't had the luxury of sneaking many cards past Counterbalance.
Can't really advise without seeing you play. Sometimes they will lock you out and win, nobody win 100%, but I have had consistent success against miracles, so I don't know what the difference is. In the dark, I would suggest that if you know you are playing against miracles, try to plan their turns in your mind and figure out when it is most important to prepare for a fight over counterbalance. Using your wastes, dazes, and forces to sculpt their ability to stick and protect counterbalance, often at the expense of committing more to your board, is a fine line against them. Clique is really good in this matchup, so if miracles is consistently getting to you, consider putting them back.


...ZP...
Just keep it in mind. Very versatile and powerful.


I don't bring Jace in against Lands because of PFire, is that a mistake?
In my estimation, yes.


I think needle is essential against Miracle and Lands.
It is a way to fight them but not the only way. Like I said, our lands player has basically given up on the matchup, and miracles matchup is playing to my favor without needle. This is a 'how you choose to attack the metagame' decision.

[Qweerios]

If you are playing without Clique, Jace and SoFaI, I can see why the control decks are giving you a hard time (Miracles, lands, shardless).



-I've adopted the SoFaI as a concession to grindy matchups. I can get behind an additional tutor-able tool that synergizes with dorks. Clique I never liked against Shardless (Strix) and I've always regretted sinking 3 mana into it. I would play clique as my Nemesis #5-6 if I had more flex slots. Changing Clique for Ponder was an eye opener.




What matchups do you think the lower curve and extra aggression is helping you with? A super low curve and mana dorks are a little bit at odds unless you are playing multiple cards a turn, but without real card advantage I don't see how you get ahead and sustain your tempo.




-I benefit from a low curve against every deck... Especially the Legacy ones that win by T3 or play Wastelands, Dazes, and Delvers. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don't believe a lower curve makes you more aggressive or less controlling or less grindy, etc. A lower curve simply means you get to have more options with less mana. I thought taking Cliques out for Ponder would make my deck less aggressive or less controlling, but in fact it made it more so. I'd be curious of how many extra cards Ponder gave me by allowing me to not mulligan one landers or to avoid land floods. The most aggressive decks in this format play 4 Ponders and rarely any 3Drops.




Can't really advise without seeing you play. Sometimes they will lock you out and win, nobody win 100%, but I have had consistent success against miracles, so I don't know what the difference is. In the dark, I would suggest that if you know you are playing against miracles, try to plan their turns in your mind and figure out when it is most important to prepare for a fight over counterbalance. Using your wastes, dazes, and forces to sculpt their ability to stick and protect counterbalance, often at the expense of committing more to your board, is a fine line against them. Clique is really good in this matchup, so if miracles is consistently getting to you, consider putting them back.




-I know how to play the matchup quite well. I've played Legacy for well over 10 years and have sleeved almost every deck on this website. My issue with CB (similar to CotV) is that it often stops half of my cards until I draw a Decay, and that's a losing proposition. I play Decays as a necessity.







In my estimation, yes.








It is a way to fight them but not the only way. Like I said, our lands player has basically given up on the matchup, and miracles matchup is playing to my favor without needle. This is a 'how you choose to attack the metagame' decision.

[Qweerios]

Is there a way to calculate the optimal amount of mana dorks and the optimal curve such a deck should have? I wouldn't mind crunching some numbers but I don't really know how to go on about it. :( Help meeeee...

[anwei]

1. You have to be much more specific about what you want. "How many dorks mean I'm 80% to have T1 acceleration?" is easy. "What's a good curve?" is not.
2. The number of variables are extremely tedious for many cases. T1 Dork, T2 3-drop is great. How does daze change this hand? Who tries to remove your dork vs. waits to hit your bigger play? How does play/draw affect how daze changes this hand?

[KobeBryan]

Anyone have a good way to beat the eldrazi deck.

Reality Smasher is really problematic with our x/1s

[Jon]

Stoneforge for Godsend ?

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[TSmiley]

Stoneforge for Godsend ?

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The eldrazi matchup seems like a cakewalk for bant- or at least that has been my experience. I am in the process of writing up a tournament report with Bant at the GP. I finished 11-4 for 57th after starting 9-0 =\

[HSCK]

The eldrazi matchup seems like a cakewalk for bant- or at least that has been my experience. I am in the process of writing up a tournament report with Bant at the GP. I finished 11-4 for 57th after starting 9-0 =\


Still a good finish! Did you win one of the GPTs?

[TSmiley]

I didn't- I don't get to play a ton of magic with my work schedule so I did it the hard way with no byes.


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[TSmiley]

I didn't- I don't get to play a ton of magic with my work schedule so I did it the hard way with no byes.


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4 noble hierarch
3 deathrite shaman
4 stoneforge mystic
4 true name nemesis
2 vendilion clique

4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
1 abrupt decay
1 sylvan library
2 jace the mind sculptor
1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice

4 wasteland
3 tropical island
2 tundra
1 underground sea
1 savannah
1 scrubland
4 flooded strand
2 misty rainforest
2 windswept Heath

Side Board
2 invasive surgery
2 containment priest
2 ethersworn canonist
2 rest in peace
2 zealous persecution
2 path to exile
1 flusterstorm
1 surgical extraction
1 abrupt decay


Round 1 Ron Reanimator 2-0
My opponent was playing a budget ub reanimator list using Darkslick Shores and Watery Grave. Game one I opened with a Deathrite Shaman and game two I played a Surgical Extraction and Containment Priest.

Round 2 Andrew Burn 2-0
Game one I was able to land a Stoneforge Mystic and protect it until Batterskull joined the party. Game two saw me at a precarious life total due to Price of Progress, but using Wasteland on myself and failing to find off of a fetch land allowed a Batterskull equipped with a Sword of Fire and Ice to win.

Round 3 Andrew Shardless Bug 2-1
Shardless is a grindy matchup, I took game one by riding an early True-Name Nemesis behind double exalted triggers. Game two Toxic Deluge wiped by board when I made the mistake of not casting Clique during my opponents draw step. I had lethal damage on the backswing from two True-Name Nemesis and was attempting to play around Maelstrom Pulse by flashing in Clique as a blocker for his lethal Tarmogoyf. This was my biggest mistake of day one. Game three I was able to win with a Batterskull swinging with an exalted trigger.

Round 4 Simon Eldrazi 2-0
The deck has a very easy time dealing with the board that Eldrazi presents. You are very likely to get access to five mana in order to equip a Batterskull to anything to trump their threats.

Round 5 Donald Eldrazi 2-0
In this round I beat turn two Thought Knot Seer into turn three and four Reality Smasher. I stabilized at a low life total with a True-Name Nemesis equipped with a Batterskull, which is as good as it sounds.

Round 6 Cameron Grixis Thopter 2-1
Game one I thought I was going to be able to win through Thopter/Sword with a Batterskull equipped with a Sword of Fire and Ice, Dack Fayden stealing my sword stopped that. Games two and three he flooded without finding much action.

Round 7 Tom Ross (56th) Infect 2-1
Game one I was able to get an early active Jitte to keep him from being able to pump his attackers. Game two I was unable to find a black source for Zealous Persecution and Abrupt Decay and died to an Immense Berserked Glistener Elf. This game was the only one of the day where my mana base seemingly failed me but I very likely misfetched earlier in the game. Game three I was able to use a large amount of single target removal to keep him off any threats.

Round 8 Thomas Bug Turbo Depths 2-0
Swords to Plowshares game one allowed me to win even after giving my opponent an extra 20 life from exiling a Marit Lage token. Game two a Wasteland on Dark Depths followed by Brainstorming into a Surgical Extraction removes all of his threats.

Round 9 Fred (50th) Lands 2-0
I swords a Marit Lage, and win with a True-Name Nemesis equipped with a Batterskull and Sword of Fire and Ice. True-Name blanking Maze of Ith is very relevant. Game two I play out a turn three Jace with a Force of Will, Daze, and Surgical Extraction in hand. I decide to tick up each turn instead of brainstorming; Jace goes ultimate five turns later locking up day one at 9-0.

Round 10 Daniel (14th) Miracles 0-2
Feature Match. This round featured the poorest draws that I had all tournament. I kept a two land hand in game one, and ended up being Wastelanded out, by Miracles. I ended with one land in play by the time a late game Mentor finished me off. The second game featured a choice of using the last land in a graveyard to fuel my Deathrite Shaman to either cast Abrupt Decay on his turn three Mentor, or use it to cast Vendilion Clique. I had two land in play with an Umezawa’s Jitte in hand. I chose to Clique myself to maximize the chances of hitting a land to play Jitte, equip, swing, and kill the Mentor. I bricked on the Clique draw and on my draw step to lose.

Round 11 James (79th) Rug Delver 2-1
I get stifled out and die to a Nimble Mongoose in game one. In game two, I Wasteland his Tropical Island and then cast Surgical Extraction. Game three, I Wasteland his Volcanic Island and then cast Surgical Extraction.

Round 12 Wilson (3rd) Miracles 1-2
This round was brutal. I win a quick game one on the back of a True-Name Nemesis and a Force of Will on Terminus. Game two features a Blood Moon and Counterspell on a replayed Batterskull to seal the game for him at a low life total. Game three I have my opponent at 9 life after swinging with two True-Name Nemesis, along with that, I had two lands, one of which is a Wasteland, and a Noble Hierarch in play, and an Invasive Surgery, Brainstorm, and a second Noble Hierarch in hand. My opponent has three lands and a top in play. I decide to not play the Noble Hierarch because I wanted to keep Surgery and Brainstorm live because I was worried about a Terminus on his turn. He played a land and a Blood Moon leaving a white mana open, to which I Brainstorm in response and brick. I swing him down to three and pass the turn. He swords my Hierarch during his upkeep and without the access to colored mana I cannot Invasive Surgery his Terminus on his draw step. Not playing out the second Hierarch was possibly a mistake, but I am not sure my line of leaving up Brainstorm was wrong.

Round 13 Gerry Thompson (16th) Grixis Control 0-2
Feature Match. I go into the match assuming that Gerry was playing Eldrazi. I mulligan a hand of two Noble Hierarch, Umezawa’s Jitte, Wasteland and three other lands on the draw thinking how bad the hand is against a chalice. If I knew what he was playing I would have kept. Not having a crew to scout matchups was a mild disadvantage. I also assumed Gerry was playing 4c Delver due to the spells that were being played in the first game. In game one he is on the play and we both mulligan. He chipped away with a Deathrite Shaman into a Young Pyromancer that met a Swords to Plowshares, then eventual played an unanswered Gurmag Angler that connected twice. I stabilize at six life with his Shaman and Angler against my Noble Hierarch, Stoneforge Mystic that fetched Jitte, and True-Name Nemesis on blocking duty. On my last turn, at 4 life, I have the chance to hit my third land drop to cast Jitte, Equip to True-Name and swing to stabilize but miss the land drop and die to Shaman activations. Game two saw me eat a Cabal Therapy to take my Batterskull and then Brainstorm. I lose quickly to Young Pyromancer tokens. I think this matchup is better than how it played out, but I am visibly disappointed in turning my 9-0 start into a 10-3 record with no Pro Tour qualification.

Round 14 Kurtis Reanimator (br) 2-1
I play a Scrubland into Deathrite Shaman on the play. Kurtis cast Dark Ritual, Entomb, and Reanimate getting Sire of Insanity. We both discard our hands and I draw a Swords to Plowshares. I thought the game was going to be smooth from that point on, but a later Faithless Looting allows him to discard two creatures and Exhume one. I have him at four life facing a Griselbrand, Tidespout Tyrant, and Sire of Insanity to my True-Name Nemesis. I don’t draw the Hierarch I need and lose what is probably the swingiest game of Magic I have ever played. Game two featured me playing an early Deathrite Shaman and casting Surgical Extraction when his Faithless Looting discarded two creatures. Game three a flashed in Containment Priest forced a concession when he realized he had taken the Abrupt Decays out of his deck in order to be faster. This deck list from a recent Channel Fireball article seemed very similar to Kurtis’s list.

Round 15 Marcel (19th) Shardless Bug 1-2
After all of the disappointment that day two had brought, I had the chance to play a match of Magic for a thousand dollars. I win a quick game one on the back of True-Name Nemesis. Game two I have a Batterskull equipped to a True-Name Nemesis to an empty handed opponent. His Ancestral Visions resolves with Batterskull meeting Maelstrom Pulse, quickly followed by a Liliana eating True-Name. Game three I was able to counter a turn one Thoughtseize with Invasive Surgery. I followed with a Stoneforge Mystic on turn two to fetch Batterskull putting me at five cards in hand. Hymn took out the Batterskull and Shardless Agents cascaded into Tarmogoyfs to put me to a disappointing 2-4 on the day. Going into the weekend, if someone had told me I would go 11-4 and finish in 57th place I would have been happy. I was absolutely not. Even though I felt like there weren’t any play mistakes that contributed to my sub-par finish, my sideboard construction left holes in the Miracles and Shardless Bug matchups.

[HSCK]

What would you do to change the SB to combat the blue based control decks? You took down quite a few good players along the way. Loam and another PW like Elspeth could be good for Shardless and decks like Grixis?

[TSmiley]

I made a few changes to the main and sb- there is an article going up soon but the website is being slow. Main changes are spell pierce main. My sb would be something like this:

2 Gideon, ally of zendikar
1 Krosan grip
2 abrupt decay
1 invasive surgery
1 ethersworn canonist
1 rest in peace
1 surgical extraction
2 containment priest
1 path to exile
1 flusterstorm
2 zealous persecution



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[TSmiley]

What would you do to change the SB to combat the blue based control decks? You took down quite a few good players along the way. Loam and another PW like Elspeth could be good for Shardless and decks like Grixis?

I think that Gideon is prolly better in the deck because its 2/2s are more pressure against miracles and trade with a lot of the stuff out of shardless. I missed having those in the board for sure.

[TSmiley]

Maybe even the flip Garruk.


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[HSCK]

I'll definitely test out each of them.

[KobeBryan]

I'll definitely test out each of them.

im using flip and a gideon. both for control matches

[TLK]

I made a few changes to the main and sb- there is an article going up soon but the website is being slow. Main changes are spell pierce main. My sb would be something like this:

2 Gideon, ally of zendikar
1 Krosan grip
2 abrupt decay
1 invasive surgery
1 ethersworn canonist
1 rest in peace
1 surgical extraction
2 containment priest
1 path to exile
1 flusterstorm
2 zealous persecution



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What are you removing from the main to add Spell Pierce?

[TSmiley]

The md abrupt decay and a clique.


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[Qweerios]

What are the Pierces for? I preffer Ponder by far but I am curious to know why you would want Pierce as a mainboard card.

I had KGrip in my SB for the longest time and it would rarely be relevant and would linger in my hand often. Why do you feel like you need it over something like Decay or Judgment?

Why no Meddling Mages? I find them quite useful against every combo deck, Shardless BUG, and Miracles.

Gideon is quite amazing for Shardless BUG and Miracles. I highly recommend it as a SB card over Elspeth.

Since you play 2 black sources and you want to cut Decay from the main entirely, why do you prioritize the 4th Noble over the 4th Deathrite?

What is the purpose of Savannah? When is it necessary and how often does that scenario occur?

[TLK]

Why no Meddling Mages? I find them quite useful against every combo deck, Shardless BUG, and Miracles.

I have a hard time knowing what to name against certain decks. What do you name against Shardless? Abrupt Decay? What about against Miracles? Swords to Plowshares? Terminus? I know it's often circumstantial, but I feel like I'm so bad with Meddling Mage. I know it's a great card, but I don't feel I make the optimal choices a lot of the time.

[HSCK]

What are the Pierces for? I preffer Ponder by far but I am curious to know why you would want Pierce as a mainboard card.

I had KGrip in my SB for the longest time and it would rarely be relevant and would linger in my hand often. Why do you feel like you need it over something like Decay or Judgment?

Why no Meddling Mages? I find them quite useful against every combo deck, Shardless BUG, and Miracles.

Gideon is quite amazing for Shardless BUG and Miracles. I highly recommend it as a SB card over Elspeth.

Since you play 2 black sources and you want to cut Decay from the main entirely, why do you prioritize the 4th Noble over the 4th Deathrite?

What is the purpose of Savannah? When is it necessary and how often does that scenario occur?

I can't imagine not having Savannah in my Bant deck as it gives you DRS/Noble/StP very early.

[tescrin]

I've been thinking of doing NO-Bant or NO-4c (Drs) as a try.

I've been trying to decide on fatties:
- Progenitus <- Fairly obvious
- Worldspine Wurm <- fine except against white. Doesn't have tons of use though.
- Empyrial Archangel? <- absorbs all the damage from things like Mirran Crusader?
- Others? Crater seems too unreliable

Depressingly, there doesn't seem to be a BG or GR dudes who nukes the board; but I'd be happy to be wrong. Borborygmos Enraged may be OK but looks like he takes too much support.

[TLK]

I've been thinking of doing NO-Bant or NO-4c (Drs) as a try.

I've been trying to decide on fatties:
- Progenitus <- Fairly obvious
- Worldspine Wurm <- fine except against white. Doesn't have tons of use though.
- Empyrial Archangel? <- absorbs all the damage from things like Mirran Crusader?
- Others? Crater seems too unreliable

Depressingly, there doesn't seem to be a BG or GR dudes who nukes the board; but I'd be happy to be wrong. Borborygmos Enraged may be OK but looks like he takes too much support.

I've been working on a NO Stompy list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30726-Natural-Order-Stompy), and I run a Progenitus (obvious) and Terastodon (handles problem non-creature permanents) in the main, and Elderscale Wurm (Burn) and Ruric Thar (combo, Miracles) in the board. Seems to be a pretty good assortment of NO targets.

[TSmiley]

What are the Pierces for? I preffer Ponder by far but I am curious to know why you would want Pierce as a mainboard card.

I had KGrip in my SB for the longest time and it would rarely be relevant and would linger in my hand often. Why do you feel like you need it over something like Decay or Judgment?

Why no Meddling Mages? I find them quite useful against every combo deck, Shardless BUG, and Miracles.

Gideon is quite amazing for Shardless BUG and Miracles. I highly recommend it as a SB card over Elspeth.

Since you play 2 black sources and you want to cut Decay from the main entirely, why do you prioritize the 4th Noble over the 4th Deathrite?

What is the purpose of Savannah? When is it necessary and how often does that scenario occur?

I wanted to be able to take advantage of the 1 drop mana accelerator more with spell pierce; the cards that I am looking to have it main for are: bloodmoon, liliana, dack, crucible, golgari charm, toxic deluge, terminus, top, stifle, bolt, and other random removal. Having two main deck frees up spots in the sideboard for more impactful cards.

I wanted to play the grip just as another answer for tough to deal with cards out of miracles like bloodmoon, moat, cb, and top.

I dropped the mages from my sb because I was running out of space, and while very impactful against decks like storm, its only mildly effective against my bad matchups.

I have hierarch as a 4 of over deathrite because there are times where, however low of a probability, a turn one deathrite doesn't provide you mana. Anti-synergy with RIP is also a consideration. Its close but I would rather have the guaranteed mana for my turn two play.

The savannah was ok, I currently am testing a 19 land, 1 basic forest, no savannah, and 1 ponder version of the deck. I think the deck can function off 19 lands and 7 mana guys well enough- I'll see with more testing leading up to Worcester.

I wish I had time to play in the three large legacy side events at Pitt this weekend- but I'll be on the event staff for the event and wont be able to play.

[TSmiley]

Here is the list I have been starting to test:

4 hierarch
3 deathrite
4 stoneforge
4 true-name
1 vendilion clique
4 swords to plowshares
4 daze
4 force
4 brainstorm
2 spell pierce
2 jace the mindsculptor
1 ponder
1 jitte
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sylvan library

4 wasteland
4 misty rainforest
2 flooded strand
2 windswept heath
1 forest
2 topical island
2 tundra
1 scrubland
1 underground sea

sb
2 Gideon
1 krosan grip
2 abrupt decay
2 invasive surgery
1 rip
1 surgical extraction
2 containment priest
1 path to exile
1 flusterstorm
2 zealous persecution

[Qweerios]

I was set on playing Bant at Worster too until I decided to go climb mountains in western Canada all summer. Bant has always been a favorite deck of mine and I think it is quite well positioned right now.

Speaking of Noble as an "assured" source of mana, I don't think this is a worthwhile argument. The chances that your t1 dork stays in play by t2 are somewhat mediocre to begin with. The chances that you or your opponent do not fetch or waste are very low. You might not always be able to produce mana with DRS but by that point he is usually doing other things. The fact that DRS can be cast more easily, is a piece of mainboard GY hate, deals damage directly to your opponent or gains you life, and has a bigger body is more than enough reason to play the better card over the lesser one. Cards that do more things will always outshine cards that do less. A DRS in a legacy match has to be removed while a Noble can be ignored almost completely.

Concerning your manabase, I have long played 19 lands with no basics, no Jaces, and 4 Ponders and found it would work quite well. I found that a lot of my Ponders were directed at finding early mana and that they would allow much greedier openers. I did, however, go up to 20 lands in favor of a 9th fetch because this deck can be very color intensive, it always finds a way to effectively sink its mana, and because 20 lands is just enough to grant you 1/3rd of your deck in lands which equates to 3 lands per 9 cards drawn. I find the deck to deploy best when the first 3 land drops occur without any manipulation. As for the basic Forest, I find the card to be highly unecessary and unwanted. Blood Moon is simply not a good strategy against a deck packing 7+ mana dorks, 8 free counterspells, equipments, and instant permanent removal.

The singleton Clique seems a little random. I stopped playing Cliques when I realized they played no particular role in the deck. SFM, Nemesis, DRS, and Jace all use mana acceleration quite well so I don't feel the need for filler threats. I preffer having more digging power in order to find the right answer at the right time. Bant is a great deck for having varied powerful answers to all decks so it only makes sense to make these cards available with a strong manipulation suite.

On to Spell Pierce, unless you are struggling with the blue count or you are in a heavy combo metagame, I see very little benefit of that card over Decay. I find Pierce to be most effective in Delver decks that lack interaction with non-creature permanents. Bant traditionally suffers from a lack of good removal outside of StP and Decay is the perfect fit to complement that suite. I no longer randomly lose to Delver openers because I lacked removal and Decay is simply amazing at so many other things such as removing game breaking cards like Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void, Jitte, Liliana and more. Decay has often been my saving grace when FoW and Daze failed me, and actively digging for one has often been my only out.

Other than that I think your SB has lots of varied but random GY hate which is probably not optimal as far as matchup coverage goes. I would also advise at least a pair of Meddling mages or an increase in combo hate cards. I for one think the Enlightened Tutor package for Bant is phenomenal and I am sold on Meddling Mages against Miracles and Shardless. Naming Terminus, StP, Decay, or Deluge can easily give you an insurmountable advantage.

Here is my list for discussion/comparison

3 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay

2 Ponder

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

1 Sylvan Library

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland

2 Meddling Mage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Council's Judgment
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Humility/Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

I play only a single Jace mainboard because I never want to see the card as a multiple in a G1. While it is true that Jace brainstorms the additional copies, it is also true that It is a very matchup specific card and that until you get to 4 mana and resolve a Jace, that second copy is essentially a mulligan.

[TSmiley]

I’ve been impressed with your contributions here for the list- there are a few things I have a different opinion on- but I understand where you are coming from.

1. Drs is a better card- but expecting to be able to consistently navigate through activations probably warrants a third black dual. I think with two black sources, three Drs is the right number.
2. As soon as I play 4 ponder- I want to be playing Delver. Keeping greedier keeps with ponder is great but it is getting away from what this deck wants to do- dork + something.
3. The basic forest is a concession to Blood Moon out of Miracles only. I have not had issues with Moon prison decks whose goal is to just play Blood Moon. However- Blood Moon out of Miracles is something to warrant a consideration for a basic plus grip in the sb. Playing 4 Drs and a bayou over the forest may be good.
4. Clique is better against some decks than TNN or Knight- it is blue and can be pitched to FoW and playing only 1 means there can’t be any legendary issues. It is not random in the deck- I wanted a higher threat count and it seemed the best fit as a 1 of.
5. I feel two decay main dilutes the game plan against matchups where I want to be streamlined in game one. Decay kind of goes against what the deck wants to do. Play dork, threat, protect, win. With only two main deck black sources, relying on decay regularly leads to getting wasted. I would rather have a more flexible answer allowing me to also protect my threats, like pierce- taking advantage of dork-stoneforge-pierce. I like being able to board into a more removal heavy deck against certain matchups- so I currently like two decays in the sb- so I shipped the main deck copy for a one of ponder.
6. Main deck I think 2 Jace is the correct number- esp with 7 mana generators. That makes room for 1 more Gideon in the sb.
7. Mage is a very solid card- and I may test playing it- also the tutor package seems reasonable and I’ll test it as well.

[TSmiley]

After a bunch of failed formatting attempts here are the changes between our mains:
I feel like the mana dork numbers and ponder over jace are not very significant- but the main issue is the extra threat over the extra fetch- and decay over pierce (prolly the most significant change)

Changes
+1/-1 Drs/Hierarch
+2/-2 Abrupt Decay/Spell Pierce
+1/-1 Ponder/Jace
+1/-1 Trop/Forest
+1/-1 Fetch/Clique

[Qweerios]

I played 4 Ponder, 4 DRS, 3 Decay, and only Scrubland and USea as black sources for a long time and I have never once been cut off. Even against DnT, which I face regularly, wasting the black source is rarely the right choice. The Wastelands are usually directed at my Trops since it usually means I get cut off green and double blue. However, I usually don't need green outside of T1 dork plays and the second blue source is always fixed by the following land drop. I rarely have to fetch the Usea because ny Scrubland has been wasted, and when I do, it simply isn't worth the second waste. Even if I were to play DnT against my list I wouldn't go out of an optimal line of play for the occasional long term mana screw that it might produce. Especially with a Delver or DnT deck where being aggressive with wastelands is focal to my game plan.

I would play the singleton Forest if I saw more Blood Moons but since I don't, I really appreciate the 4 Delta-4 Flooded configuration for universal fetching. Perhaps this might explain why you feel 2 black sources is not enough to support a few Decays and a playset of DRS.

Also, how is Ponder more fitting for a Delver deck? Even the premier control deck plays the full set. I've always viewed Delver deck as aggressive decks that could take on a control role postboard. I think that every deck that can afford to change roles according to the matchup at hand benefits from cheap manipulation. Isn't this why we all play Brainstorm? It seems like conceeding that Ponder is only good for the most aggressive decks or the most controlling decks or the most comboish decks is contradictory to the concept of a midrange deck that shifts roles according to the board position it is faced with. The truth is that every deck benefits from manipulation unless you are playing something ridiculously streamlined and redundant such as burn or merfolk. Properly sequencing your cards is the hallmark of a good magic player. Decks that give more choices reward better players.

Those are ny main disagreements with our deck differences. SB is always very subjective and manabases are never perfect. As far as my list goes, if I go back to 19 lands you can be sure that the 20th land becomes a 3rd Ponder and that Jace might go back to the SB for the 4th Ponder. I highly value being able to sideboard out all cards that are irrelevant for every matchup and Ponder is great at enabling that.

[Qweerios]

I think it is more interesting to compare deck lists when you see the deck postboard against various top tier decks. Here is my G2/3 against some very different decks:

Miracles
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Meddling Mage
4 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
1 Invasive Surgery
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay

2 Ponder
1 Council's Judgment

1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

1 Sylvan Library

1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland

DnT

3 Noble Hierarch
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True-Name Nemesis

2 Meddling Mage/Daze (Play/Draw)

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Zealous Persecution

2 Ponder
1 Council's Judgment

1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

1 Sylvan Library

1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea

[Qweerios]

Sorry for the multiple posts I just can't format this properly on my phone.



Here is an example for storm and dredge:



Storm



3 Noble Hierarch

4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Meddling Mage

1 Ethersworn Canonist



4 Force of Will

4 Daze

2 Flusterstorm

1 Invasive Surgery

1 Enlightened Tutor

4 Brainstorm

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Zealous Persecution



2 Ponder



1 Grafdigger's Cage

1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Batterskull



1 Rest in Peace



4 Wasteland

4 Flooded Strand

4 Polluted Delta

1 Windswept Heath

2 Tropical Island

2 Tundra

1 Underground Sea

1 Scrubland



Dredge



3 Noble Hierarch

4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Meddling Mage

1 Ethersworn Canonist



4 Force of Will

4 Daze

2 Flusterstorm

1 Invasive Surgery

1 Enlightened Tutor

4 Brainstorm

4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Abrupt Decay



2 Ponder



1 Grafdigger's Cage

1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Batterskull



1 Rest in Peace

1 Sylvan Library



4 Flooded Strand

4 Polluted Delta

1 Windswept Heath

3 Tropical Island

2 Tundra

1 Underground

1 Scrubland

***EDIT***
I will just add my findings here rather than post for a 3rd time...

I have done some basic math for our mana curve:

4xCMC3 = 3drop play within 15 cards
5xCMC3 = 3drop play within 12 cards
6xCMC3 = 3drop play within 10 cards
7xCMC3 = 3drop play within 8.5 cards
8xCMC3 = 3drop play within 7.5 cards

If you are obsessed about sequencing T1 dork into T2 3drop then I suggest playing 8-9 mana dorks and 8x 3drops. Personally, I am more concerned about the quality of my cards and I define that by the choices they give me. Therefore I will always evaluate a card in isolation before putting it into context since legacy disruption creates its own environment for individual cards rather than allowing you to pair them up as you would like them to be.

I always assume some form of disruption on my mana development by t3 (Waste, Daze, Bolt, StP, Decay) so I think it is fair to expect a 3drop on T3 for a deck designed to power them out T2 in a legacy format. I don't count SoFaI in this because the card does nothing for 3 mana.

By T3 you have seen 9-10 cards given no manipulation.

With cards like Brainstorm and Ponder that give you information and manipulation you can fix your mana development and get on curve by expending 1 mana during any turn. If one is cast, you extend your curve knowledge and possibilities by seeing 3 additional cards giving you 12-13 cards seen within your first 3 turns. This means that with a reasonable amount of cantrips you can lower your mana curve while retaining your tempo advantage.

4xCantrip = +3 cards within first 8-9 turns
5xCantrip = +3 cards within first 5-6 turns
6xCantrip = +3 cards within first 3-4 turns
7xCantrip = +3 cards within first 2-3 turns
8xCantrip = +3 cards within first 2 turns

For the purpose of staying on curve and allowing tempo plays, you get diminishing returns the more cantrips you play. However, with 6-7 cantrips you can assume 12-13 cards seen by T3 and allow for less 3drops altogether (5 instead of the optimal 6).

There is a lot to be gained by having a lower curve and allowing more deck manipulation such as:

-less mulligans by having more possible keeps
-more resilience by fixing early essential plays such as land drops, removal, counterspells, and mana dorks
-more impactful SB by being able to navigate through your deck
-better sequencing given card information
-less chances of 3drop clutters (AKA: Drawing 2 Nemesis and 1 Clique but having difficulty deploying them)

With this being said, I would not go below 6 cantrips (with a Sylvan Library I find it acceptable) and I wouldn't go over 5x3drop threats. Ideally I would rather play more 2drops on T2-3 with all that mana acceleration but there are simply not enough quality 2drops for Bant compared to their alternatives.

Some more quick maths also reveal that 17 colored lands is optimal for an opener with 2x colored lands. You can lower this count by virtually increasing your availability to colored sources of mana by including mana dorks and cantrips because they require only 1 land to be played. Ironically a cantrip is a better source of mana development than a mana dork in many matchups because there is very little interaction in the format being done to limit sorcery-into-land mana development versus playing creatures vulnerable to every type of removal. Ideally having 20 lands, 17 of which are colored would be ideal for most interactive matchups. Using 7 dorks in a non-interactive matchup (mostly combo) would probably require less lands but doing such calculations is out of my scope for today.

You can calculate your virtual mana development by observing your dork+cantrip to deck ratio.

With 20 lands a cantrip is statistically going to give you a land drop.

Here are some more interesting statistics:

Given 8 dorks and 4 cantrips you get:
1 piece of mana acceleration per 7.5 cards
1 piece of manipulation per 15 cards
Total of 1 piece of additional mana development per 5 cards

Given 7 dorks and 5 cantrips you get:
1 piece of mana accel. per 8.5 cards
1 piece of manip. per 12 cards
Total of 1 piece of additional mana development per 5 cards

Given 7 dorks and 6 cantrips you get:
1 piece of mana accel. per 8.5 cards
1 piece of manip. per 10 cards
Total of 1 piece of additional mana development per 4.6 cards

It is interesting to note how going from 12 to 13 gives me 2 pieces of additional mana development by T2-3 rather than by T3-4. That's a full turn smoother.

Say you want the combination of both within your first 2 turns then you would want 2 piece of additional mana development per 8.5 cards for a total of 14 cards split evenly.

8 dorks and 7 cantrips (or 6+Library) would be the optimal combination if all cards were equally good. Ideally I would like one of each different card, however, overlap is bound to occur. Cantrips and Deathrites are good at all stages but Nobles lose their appeal after the first couple of turns and offer diminishing returns in multiples. Since 7 dorks is the minimal amount of dorks for mana acceleration during your first 2 turns (1 per 8.5 cards) and that 14 additional pieces of mana development is what I need for ideal T1-2 deployment, I choose to play the following core configuration:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Brainstorm
2-3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

I will add a 3drop to complement my 4 TNN by removing a fetch or moving Jace to the SB (or both and add a 3rd Ponder). I think Clique is my choice because of its relevance as a blue card and the fact that it is potent for almost every matchups. Although I will admit that Aven Mindcensor is also in contention...

[TSmiley]

I played 4 Ponder, 4 DRS, 3 Decay, and only Scrubland and USea as black sources for a long time and I have never once been cut off. Even against DnT, which I face regularly, wasting the black source is rarely the right choice. The Wastelands are usually directed at my Trops since it usually means I get cut off green and double blue. However, I usually don't need green outside of T1 dork plays and the second blue source is always fixed by the following land drop. I rarely have to fetch the Usea because ny Scrubland has been wasted, and when I do, it simply isn't worth the second waste. Even if I were to play DnT against my list I wouldn't go out of an optimal line of play for the occasional long term mana screw that it might produce. Especially with a Delver or DnT deck where being aggressive with wastelands is focal to my game plan.

I would play the singleton Forest if I saw more Blood Moons but since I don't, I really appreciate the 4 Delta-4 Flooded configuration for universal fetching. Perhaps this might explain why you feel 2 black sources is not enough to support a few Decays and a playset of DRS.

Also, how is Ponder more fitting for a Delver deck? Even the premier control deck plays the full set. I've always viewed Delver deck as aggressive decks that could take on a control role postboard. I think that every deck that can afford to change roles according to the matchup at hand benefits from cheap manipulation. Isn't this why we all play Brainstorm? It seems like conceeding that Ponder is only good for the most aggressive decks or the most controlling decks or the most comboish decks is contradictory to the concept of a midrange deck that shifts roles according to the board position it is faced with. The truth is that every deck benefits from manipulation unless you are playing something ridiculously streamlined and redundant such as burn or merfolk. Properly sequencing your cards is the hallmark of a good magic player. Decks that give more choices reward better players.

Those are ny main disagreements with our deck differences. SB is always very subjective and manabases are never perfect. As far as my list goes, if I go back to 19 lands you can be sure that the 20th land becomes a 3rd Ponder and that Jace might go back to the SB for the 4th Ponder. I highly value being able to sideboard out all cards that are irrelevant for every matchup and Ponder is great at enabling that.

I wanted to play bant to move away from being as reliant on as many 1cc spells with the saturation of Miracles and Eldrazi in the meta. I am not saying ponder is a bad card at all- but I feel as soon as you move to multiple ponders, you might as well play delver of secrets over hierarch, and move in the bug or 4c direction. I understand having more choices leads to more decisions- but ponder ties up mana early when you want to be playing your action, increasing selection but reducing velocity. I think 4 brainstorm, 1 ponder, and 2 jace is the balance of selection vs the number of threats I want. Trimming numbers of the decks action to add more ponders or probe or preordain is great in certain shells- I just find the bant shell to be to heavily saturated with business cards to trim.

Maybe I just like Jace a lot more- I'm unwilling to cut the two I have main- because even if I draw both- if one hits play- I have an active Jace. I also think that anyone attacking your mana base- should 100% hit the black and white sources- trying to go after the trops is a mistake which is why I usually fetch for them first.

[Qweerios]

I fail to see the reasoning behind your assertion that Delver decks are reliant on 1 cmc spells. If anything delver is reliant on instants and sorceries. There is a very good delver deck out there that uses goyf, nemesis, hymn, decay, liliana, sylvan, painful truth, and various other 2-3cmc spells. It just happens that most spells cost 1 mana because good cards in legacy tend to have a strong effect for 1 mana. In fact, legacy is defined by high powered cards for a low cost... Cards like Young Pyromancer and Cabal Therapy also favor additional cantrips in the form of Gitaxian Probe and those cards have nothing to do with being able to dig 3 cards deep and shuffle. Cantriping for the sake of having a high instant /sorcery count and/or getting value out of other cards that synergize with the act of cantriping is characteristic of the current delver decks because of the cards that surround the cantrip suite and not the cantrips themselves.







I appreciate you sharing your opinions on card numbers based on your feelings but I would appreciate it even more if you could provide me with some reasoning behind your choices for choosing to play exactly 1 Ponder with your 4 Brainstorms and why you need to have 2 Jaces mainboard. You can look up my in-depth explanation on why I play exactly 2-3 Ponders in the post that I edited above. Let me know what you think.







I entirely disagree on your Wasteland tactic. As far as my opponent knows, I may or may not be playing black cards mainboard aside from DRS and/or I might be playing more than 2 black sources. Wasting based on your current board position is better than speculating on what your opponent may or may not have in his hand or deck unless you know their decklist by heart which is highly unlikely. My fetch sequence is almost always the same where I go Trop -> Tundra -> Scrubland or Trop -> Scrubland -> Tundra when I am low on land drops or have to cast an early Decay. When I am on trop and tundra, wasting the black source is not an option. When on trop and scrub, wasting the scrub leaves me access to my 2 main colors and cuts off my 2 secondary colors. I can cast almost all of my 1drops with a single trop while I can do very little with a single scrub. Even on 3 lands it is wiser to remove the trop because you already cut off green and therefore Decay and you limit my access to blue mana (the most common color). Aiming for the Scrub in that scenario is only relevant when a DRS is menacing you. Furthermore, even in the advent that Scrubland gets wasted on 3 lands, the following black source will be my udg sea at which point the following wasteland would rather be directed at my lonesome white source than my second black source. Also, keep in mind that presenting a basic Forest is a deterrent to whoever considers wasting your trop.

[TSmiley]

I fail to see the reasoning behind your assertion that Delver decks are reliant on 1 cmc spells. If anything delver is reliant on instants and sorceries. There is a very good delver deck out there that uses goyf, nemesis, hymn, decay, liliana, sylvan, painful truth, and various other 2-3cmc spells. It just happens that most spells cost 1 mana because good cards in legacy tend to have a strong effect for 1 mana. In fact, legacy is defined by high powered cards for a low cost... Cards like Young Pyromancer and Cabal Therapy also favor additional cantrips in the form of Gitaxian Probe and those cards have nothing to do with being able to dig 3 cards deep and shuffle. Cantriping for the sake of having a high instant /sorcery count and/or getting value out of other cards that synergize with the act of cantriping is characteristic of the current delver decks because of the cards that surround the cantrip suite and not the cantrips themselves.

I appreciate you sharing your opinions on card numbers based on your feelings but I would appreciate it even more if you could provide me with some reasoning behind your choices for choosing to play exactly 1 Ponder with your 4 Brainstorms and why you need to have 2 Jaces mainboard. You can look up my in-depth explanation on why I play exactly 2-3 Ponders in the post that I edited above. Let me know what you think.

I entirely disagree on your Wasteland tactic. As far as my opponent knows, I may or may not be playing black cards mainboard aside from DRS and/or I might be playing more than 2 black sources. Wasting based on your current board position is better than speculating on what your opponent may or may not have in his hand or deck unless you know their decklist by heart which is highly unlikely. My fetch sequence is almost always the same where I go Trop -> Tundra -> Scrubland or Trop -> Scrubland -> Tundra when I am low on land drops or have to cast an early Decay. When I am on trop and tundra, wasting the black source is not an option. When on trop and scrub, wasting the scrub leaves me access to my 2 main colors and cuts off my 2 secondary colors. I can cast almost all of my 1drops with a single trop while I can do very little with a single scrub. Even on 3 lands it is wiser to remove the trop because you already cut off green and therefore Decay and you limit my access to blue mana (the most common color). Aiming for the Scrub in that scenario is only relevant when a DRS is menacing you. Furthermore, even in the advent that Scrubland gets wasted on 3 lands, the following black source will be my udg sea at which point the following wasteland would rather be directed at my lonesome white source than my second black source. Also, keep in mind that presenting a basic Forest is a deterrent to whoever considers wasting your trop.


First off: "I fail to see the reasoning behind your assertion that Delver decks are reliant on 1 cmc spells." Is kind of insane.

I think you are missing my point.

To respond to your first comment- once you hit a critical mass of spells- Delver of Secrets becomes very good- moving to 4 ponders gives the shell the incentive to move into playing it- and therefore completely change the deck. If you are going to play a shell with 4 wasteland, 4 brainstorm, 4 force of will, 4 daze, 4 ponder, and multiple abrupt decays- Bant is not the best shell- Bug is. Delver decks are more reliant on 1 cc spells... I haven't seen a solid performing bug delver deck play painful truths or liliana in a while.

I think Jace is better than ponder in a deck with 7 mana accelerators. I play two Jace because it is outstanding against Miracles and Shardless Bug, two of the poorest matchups for the deck. Two Jace increases the power level of the deck and allows you to take better advantage of your accelerators.

The wasteland strategy against the deck is completely correct- firstly- you shouldn't be able to cut the deck off of blue or green. So you target the sources with the least number of fetchable targets- which is white and black. A player would 100% waste a scrubland or underground sea against a deathrite to shut off its activation- regardless of if they know you have main deck decay, or a scrubland or tundra to stop a stoneforge activation. Most people are just going to fire off the waste at the first mana available- but with a deck that runs 7 mana dorks wastlelanding actually puts the opponent behind normally. (one of the reasons I enjoy playing the deck)

In conclusion- there is a certain number of cantrips that when you play- delver becomes more effective against the field than hierarch. Moving to play 3-4 ponders and 2-3 decay shifts the balance away from Bant as the most effective shell.

[TSmiley]

My apologies- there was one painful truths in the sb of the 4c delver deck in the top 8 of Columbus.

[hymn22rock]

TSmiley, congrats on the finish in Columbus. I also ran Bant and won an LCQ on Friday, but unfortunately took 2 tough losses to Miracles on Saturday.

Agree with pretty much all of your thoughts on where the deck should be headed in this meta. I've cut my 2x KotR and 1x Karakas for a 3rd Deathrite Shaman, maindeck Clique and a Spell Pierce, so our lists are very similar now. I believe the only real difference is that I am running a one-of Stifle. It is a liability in what I've found to be our best matchups, but one of the most powerful cards in our worst. Some of the best starts this deck can have are Turn 1 dork, Turn 2 Wasteland + Stoneforge w/ Daze backup. The Stifle can act as a 5th Wasteland in this scenario, or "counter" a Terminus/Ancestral Vision/Storm trigger at a key point later on. I've also found that breaking up a Miracles' player's first fetch will often mean they need to fetch a Tundra with the 2nd, thus making them vulnerable to Wasteland.

Just some food for thought. Good luck in Worcester.

[HSCK]

I'm probably blinded by my love of Tamiyo in the story, but her new Bant walker card seems really interesting.

Link to card (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/emmahandy-07012016-field-research/)

Drawing off TNN or their creatures or freezing them is a pretty useful ability.

[TSmiley]

I really like playing with stifle- what did you cut for it?

Also what are you doing with your side boarding? That's the biggest thing I'l trying to hammer down by the scg.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[maharis]

Well, let's break it down a bit.

+1: There's two ways you play this. One is obvious, where you have two creatures of your own, drop this pre-combat, and + targeting them to instantly draw two on the attack. The other is if she comes down and you target opponent's creatures. The upshot is that while this doesn't really "defend" her per se, it does nearly guarantee that you don't lose a card by playing her. Four-mana, three-color divination/fog isn't ideal, but better than nothing.

-2: This does defend her against certain armies. Particularly good against the cards Deathrite Shaman and Show and Tell, not so useful against Mentor, Pyromancer, or Reality Smasher.

-7: You probably win, but not nearly as guaranteed as some other PW ultimates.

This card competes with JTMS and Edric and is somewhere in between. Ultimately I feel like it's not quite good enough against Miracles or Eldrazi, which is the litmus test right now.

[hymn22rock]

I really like playing with stifle- what did you cut for it?

Also what are you doing with your side boarding?

Re: Stifle, believe you said you're playing 2 Pierce? I have 1 Pierce, 1 Stifle. Basically I have the same 16 creatures and 6 non-creature permanents, so whichever spell you're playing that isn't a Brainstorm, StP, FoW or Daze.

My sideboard right now is:

1 EE
1 Needle
1 RiP
1 Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Meddling Mage
1 V Clique
1 Gideon, Ally
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Zealous P
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip

There are several cards I am not married to, most notably the 2nd Decay and the Needle. I had a Thalia in the past and I'm thinking about bringing it back.