[Deck] Angel Stompy v2.0

[BKeola]

[DECK] Not Really Angel Stompy

List as of 1-28-2010

This is my best attempt at an Angel Stompy meta deck.

Lands

9 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 City of Traitors
1 Ancient Den

Spells

4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mask of Memory
2 Armageddon
3 Chrome Mox
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Creatures

3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Mother of Runes
2 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Sideboard

2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Absolute Law
1 Ghostly Prison


Changes 2-15-10:

Main: -4 Serra Avenger, -3 Baneslayer Angel, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Samurai, +3 Stoneforge Mystic, +3 Elspeth, +1 Mask of Memory.

The Angels are simply too slow for what this deck wants to be. Elspeth hits face for 4+ the turn she comes into play and every turn after that one. She is also amazing with Armageddon.

Changes 1-28-10:

Main: -4 Kor Skyfisher, -1 Oblivion Ring, -1 Ethersworn Canonist, -1 Armageddon, -1 City of Traitors, -1 Flagstones of Trokair, +3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain, +2 Enlightened Tutor, +2 Plains, +1 Aven Mindcensor +1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB: -2 Enlightened Tutor, -1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Absolute Law, +1 Ghostly Prison, +1 Ethersworn Canonist.

Detailed card choices and interactions coming soon.

Changes 1-8-10: Cut the Grunts for Aven Mindcensors, Added another Flagstones and Turbo land
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this deck going to redefine the format? Probably not. Is it competitive? At least somewhat. Is it fun to play and interactive? Definitely.

I'll try to justify what I feel are some of the stranger things I've done with this deck.

Firstly, Kor Skyfisher. At first glance he seems like jank. Upon closer inspection he has the following interactions:

Æther Vial: He saves your dudes from point removal, or takes the place of a more relevant creature during a wrath effect. Or he can bounce a land to save it from Wasteland

Jötun Grunt: Saves him from his own age counters

City of Traitor's: Saves it from you playing a land, allows tap-bounce-play-tap tempo plays. I can't emphasize enough how one sided this can be after the Armageddon or early on in the game.

When you have no lands in hand or no Æther Vial in play, he essentially costs 1 less land to play. With a tap for two land in play, he essentially becomes free.

Is he good when you hard cast him with two plains and a plains in hand on turn two? Absolutely not. Is he good when used strategically in any of the many situations where his ability generates card advantage? Yessir.

Next, you may have noticed that Exalted Angel is missing from this list. I think we can all pretty much agree that morphing an Exalted Angel is a pretty clunky play compared to just plain casting a Baneslayer Angel with a tap two land a Chrome Mox and a couple plains on turn three. Sure Exalted Angel CAN be 1 turn faster. It can also die very easily during the turn it sits and screams "Someone for the love of god Lightning Bolt me PLEASE". Baneslayer in, Exalted out.

Lastly, Enlightened Tutor in the board. Every time I build a deck this card is a huge temptation to include mainboard. In a deck like this it fixes your draw so effectively that its really really hard to resist. Ultimately, however, it's just too slow mainboard for an aggro deck in Legacy. Some people would say its just too slow for Legacy period. I think that post board, it certainly has its place by improving your card quality against Control matchups, as well as giving you a much more consistent turn 2 Canonist or Chalice for 0 against combo.

I'd love to here some critiques, and maybe even get a few interested parties to conduct some playtesting.

Thanks for your time.

Note: Interest for the deck seems to have died down. If you want to discuss card choices or testing, please PM me.

[Moonlight]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2635&page=76

I think you might want to post in there.. and read the last vew pages too ;)

[Zilla]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2635&page=76

I think you might want to post in there.. and read the last vew pages too
No, this build is significantly different enough that it warrants its own thread. Besides, the old thread is literally years old.


It's nice to see a fresh take on the deck. I'll put it together and do some playtesting with it and let you know my thoughts on it soon.

[Skeggi]

I like the idea of Aether Vial + Kor Skyfisher. Perhaps you can make an in-between deck between Death & Taxes and Angel Stompy. Perhaps -3 Oblivion Ring, +3 Mangara of Corondor, -3 Armageddon, +3 Flickerwisp, -1 Flagstones of Trokair, -1 Plains, +2 Karakas.

Just a thought. In this case it would lean more towards Control than Aggro though, Swords to Plowshares would probably be better than Path to Exile in this scenario.

[BKeola]

Thanks for stopping in and having a look guys.

@Moonlight: I read the the thread last part of the thread you mentioned, however I've gotta say, Zilla is right and my deck is pretty different.

I still feel that Exalted Angel is a clunky play. The same accel that enables it to be fast enables Baneslayer angel to be not much (if at all) slower. BSA also doesn't die while morphed everytime you play Zoo. Which lately, is increasingly more often.

@Skeggi: I used to play Death and Taxes as well, however I feel that vial at three puts the deck into control mode, like you said. I'd love to hear about how such a split works out. One thing that should be noted is that Flickerwisp/O-Ring interaction is very good, and if your keeping the stompy lands O-Ring is a full turn faster than it is in D&T

@Zilla: Thanks for you interest, I anxiously await your results.

More thoughts after 9pm CST. Class starts in 5min.

[Meister_Kai]

Doesn't Path to Exile sort of clash with your Armageddon strategy? In Zilla's old angel stompy build Cataclysm was basically the strongest card/strategy the deck possessed, in my opinion at least. Have you tried that at all?

[Barook]

I love the interaction between Mother of Runes and Ethersworn Canonist. But I'm also interested in the following questions:

- Why PtE over StP in a deck that runs Armaggeddon?
- What is the reason to choose Armageddon over Cataclysm?

[BKeola]

No I don't feel Path to Exile clashes with the Armageddon strategy. In fact I feel that Armageddon helps offset the advantage provided to my opponent by PtE.

Of course after the Armageddon, PtE would help my opponent to recover more quickly. However, with Flagstones of Trokair, Kor Skyfisher potentially saving my lands, Chrome Mox as a mana resource, in addition to the board position that this deck is able to quickly generate, the extra land will ideally be too little too late.

Realistically, against Threshold (the number one deck I think about when considering card choices) Armageddon is most likely going to eat a Force of Will, unless they have a fetch in hand. Which of course results in them spinning the top or casting brainstorm in response and digging for the land their about to need. Either way, resources they spend keeping their lands are resources they don't spend keeping me from beating their face in. Which obviously is the goal of this deck. Armageddon is actually somewhat of a threat to thresh while Cataclysm does next to nothing. After 'clysm they keep Counterbalance, Top, Goyf, and say Tundra depending on build. They've lost maybe 2 land and a Nimble Mongoose or Noble Hierarch. Goyf is almost certainly a 4/5 now if he wasn't already. You can see how this situation is far from optimal.

However the main strength of cataclysm is against Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, etc. With Jitte, creatures that are either huge or impact the game in a huge way (Canonist against Zoo Goblins or Merfolk really slows down how fast they build board position) Mom pro-blocking (ideal) and enabling pro-swings (less than ideal) against Gobs and Merfolk, you should have enough tricks to make these matchups winnable. Post board SoFI is a wrecking ball, especially with the broken ability Kor Skyfisher gives you to potentially play it and equip it in one turn with vial at 2 a stompy land and the mana source of your choice. He also provides a big fat flying arse to put it on if nobody else is handy. Note that the vial isn't required for this trick, it just makes it take less land and is more likely to be the way it gets played with the inclusion of Armageddon. If I don't have the Kor Skyfisher, then it plays just like it used to in this deck, pretty darn good.

I've never really liked Cataclysm against Loam variants, another a deck I consider when choosing cards. It just doesn't do enough with Mox Diamond around. 2 mana is more or less what they need to ruin my board. Armageddon is less than ideal against them as well, and is an obvious side-out.

Against Landstill and 43-Land I'm pretty sure Armageddon is a huge ouch. If they force it, then thats a force that didn't hit Jitte or BSA, either of which is huge. Cataclysm is great against these decks as well, however I feel like Armageddon is just better for the most part.

From a purely deckbuilding standpoint, Cataclysm makes Chrome Mox not as good, and it makes Aether Vial not as good. I find it kind of funny actually that Cataclysm is more likely to make you mana starved with this list than Armageddon is. (Obviously showtime for 'clysm is when you have a Flier with a Jitte and no other artifacts. With Chrome Mox and Aether Vial, this becomes unlikely).

TL;DR:

Cataclysm isn't as good against problem decks as Armageddon.

Path to Exiles effect can be mitigated (it can even be a bonus against lists running very few basics). Swords to Plowshares effect cannot. In fact against Dreadstill, Aggro Loam, or any deck with Knight of the Reliquary Tombstalker or Goyf, it will most likely costs me one turn if not more. I'm ok with late game Path's giving opponents land, because I'd rather give them land than life when they're almost dead.

Swords is a good card. Most of the time, with this deck, Path is better.

[_erbs_]

PTE vs STP
I've tested them both under one deck and i found out each has its own use.

Early to late game STP is a good creature removal card, while PTE on the other hand shines mid to late game. Drawing early PTE and giving your opponent a 1 land boost is a big tempo loss thats what i don't like with PTE.

Currently if im running white my setup is 3stp 1pte. Pte are excellent against big critters like 30/30 lord of extinction or a 24/X master of etherium, etc. If you swords those kinds of creatures sometimes its very hard to recover from it especially when your kill is aggro aswell.

Have you tried removing the 3 jotun grunts in favor of 4 aven mindsensor his an excellent creature since your running turbo lands and running mono color. He stops fetches which is pretty common in legacy format.

Kor Skyfisher is only good with vial tricks i feel that he would have more synergy in a DnT shell.

[BKeola]

@_erbs_: What was your list? In most decks I prefer Swords as well. However in this deck I feel that Path is the stronger choice for the reasons stated above.

Aven Mindcensor: He has definitely been considered as a replacement for the E-Tutors in the board. However I do like the grunts mainboard. They're something to do against Dredge, and Dredge gives me nightmares playing aggro.

Mindcensor's main utility seems to be in shutting down Natural Order/Progenitus combo and hosing fetch lands. I'd rather let them get land from their fetches, as it helps me reduce the likelihood of their recovery from Armageddon. That fabled "deck thinning" is a double-edged sword in this instance.

I've recently heard recently people claim its a complete myth, when in reality its just not enough of an improvement to risk stifle, unless you need color fixing, or are running brainstorm (or Landfall dudes for whatever reason).

When you run 8 fetches and you want to use them as much as possible to filter cards, it means (according to my gorilla math) you take 4-6 lands out of your deck to get 3-4 into play. When your opponent is running 17-18 lands and you're running Armageddon, that seems to reduce their chances of recovering significantly.

Still, stopping Progenitus combo is good. However, Mom does pro-block Progenitus all day, and four mana can be a problem for your opponent what with Armageddon and all.

The only other search effects I can think of offhand that he shuts down are Enlightened Tutor (Quinn), Intuition (Aluren and misc combo decks primarily?), Gifts Ungiven (not sure if anyone plays this currently), Fact or Fiction (lots of Landstill and other controllish decks), Imperial Recruiter (Painter-Stone mostly. A friend runs him in Aluren as well), Goblin Matron (duh). I'm sure there are more decks/cards but those are the ones that come to mind.

When these factors are considered he starts to lose some of his luster, but he is still quality tech that deserves testing, if for no other reason than that I'm dubious about how good E-tutor is in helping find hate (especially with regards to combo) effectively.

Kor Skyfisher: He does everything I said above except save your permanents from removal with or without vial. Albeit, saving permanents from removal is his greatest strength. His other effects are still worth considering. When played optimally he is a 2/3 flier that doesn't cost you a card, and in a deck with no draw of any sort mainboard (as well as initial card disadvantage from Chrome Mox) that seems relevant. As far as Kor Skyfisher belonging in a Death and Taxes shell, I think if anyone knows whats good for that deck, its Finn. This is what he had to say about in the D&T thread


Skyfisher misses the mark just a bit imo. At two mana, he is too cheap to reliably get in from a vial that is stationed at 3 as soon as it can be. That means that you will be hardcasting it most of the time. And then his ability does next to nothing.

Optimal vial placement for this deck is at two. This makes his ability that much easier to activate with maximum effect. D&T also doesn't run stompy lands, which also help make his ability when hardcasted better. Missing land drops in order to make tempo plays with this deck isn't such a huge deal (as long as your hand doesn't start getting flooded, and with 19 land that doesn't happen often) as Armageddon (in addition to stompy lands themselves) will help to offset (or even nullify) the advantage your opponents gain.

Some things that worry me: Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed. Hopefully O-Ring and Armageddon are enough to keep these cards from having a major impact. If your opponents plays these cards, keeping them below 4 mana for EE and 5 for Deed is an absolute must. You should also probably be playing a less aggressive game overall as well. Post board, hopefully E-Tutor and Pithing Needle are enough additional relevant hate to allow you to commit more creatures to the board.

To be clear, I don't think this deck will auto win against any of the decks I mention for examples. Obviously in the game of magic your opponent gets to play too. I have put alot thought and testing into this list, enough that an understanding of the list gained through play testing is absolutely necessary to providing usable criticism. Detailed explanations of why X card is better than Y card in this list are primarily what I'm looking for.

While I haven't done enough play testing to provide percentage based match-up analyses yet, I do have a pretty firm grasp of the Legacy metagame and will continue to provide detailed explanations for any of my card choices when asked.

If anyone has experience with ANT, Belcher, Ichorid etc. I would love to schedule a time for some MWS games. I'd also like to test the Thresh, Merfolk, Landstill, 43-Land, Goblins, Zoo and Aggro Loam matches further. Feel free to PM away.

Just because I'm realistic about this decks prospects of success doesn't mean I don't want to make this deck the best it can be.

Another wall of text, another TL;DR:
I've spent alot of time working on this deck. I want to do more testing and I want you to help me.

PS: I'm sorry if I seem a bit zealous in defending my card choices. I really do appreciate all the feedback and critiques of the list.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Quick note: aven mindcensor + pte = win

[Worldslayer]

In a deck running Kor Skyfisher, in a meta where the primary forms of removal come in the following flavors:

Remove [target] big dude
Deal 2/3 to army of little dudes
Chump/trade/kill with a ~4/5

Do you feel Calciderm has ever been a consideration? If fills the slot previously taken by flipping Angel, and while it lacks lifelink it dodges almost all removal I can think of (including being at the worst possible CC for counterbalance decks, and impossible for some decks [like u/r or u/g/r dreadstill, 3c CB top, etc..] to Explosives away). With Chrome Mox and your lands it can come out t2 (I'm foreseeing t3 usually, but t2 is a distinct possibility) to either beat face or slow the bleeding.

I'm not necessarily advocating the card, as I'm still new to Legacy, I was simply wondering if it came up as it seems like a solid card choice.

[BKeola]

@TooCloseToTheSun: Great catch, I completely forgot about that interaction. Mindcensor's evasiveness + sick tech might make him a worthy mainboard replacement for Jotun Grunt. I guess it all depends on how much Dredge I expect. (and whether my testing against Dredge, which is minimal at this point, proves Jotun Grunt to be the significant threat that I hope he is) Not to mention Grunt helps make Goyf small. All in all its still a a hard call that only more testing will make easier.

@Worldslayer: I didn't realize that selecting a permanent with his ability wasn't the same as targeting, and that therefore it worked on shrouded creatures. I also didn't know that it could not be responded to. Thanks for pointing that out. As far as Calciderm goes, a 5/5 shroud for 4 that can be saved from itself by Kor Skyfisher seems pretty good.

However to me its competing with Baneslayer Angel for a spot, and in my mind there is no doubt Baneslayer is better. Mom and Kor Skyfisher both help protect BSA, although to be fair Calciderm doesn't need it. Ultimately it boils down to whether you think flying, lifelink, first strike and hanging around without the skyfisher are worth an extra colorless mana, and in my opinion they are.

As a purely frivolous note Angel Stompy needs at least 2 angels don't you think?

[Moonlight]

''Still, stopping Progenitus combo is good. However, Mom does pro-block Progenitus all day, and four mana can be a problem for your opponent what with Armageddon and all.''

Unfortunately she doesnt.. Proggi has: prot white, prot creature, prot 1/1, prot cc1, prot ugly art, etc.. ;)

Mindcensor is awesome.. you should definately try the bird.. ;)
As for the bird over Jotun grunt: it has evation.. pretty good with a jitte huh?

[BKeola]

Good point about mom. Protection cuts both ways *looks sheepish*.

The more I think about Aven Mindcensor, the better it seems. I also had forgotten that it effected opponents and not everyone (another woops). Not effing up my albeit sketchy E-Tutor sideboard plan also makes it seem stronger.

All things considered the bird is going to get some serious testing.

[_erbs_]

Try adding the following cards in your SB

4 Aethersworn Canonist
2 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
3 ghostly prison
5 open slots depending on your build

You can could use chalice or trinishpere for more locking power

Then add 2 burrenton forge tender in your main deck aswell. I find that running 4 mother of runes is to defensive. I used to run 4 aswell but concluded to myself that 3 is the right number if i want to use her in an aggro shell deck.

Ghostly prison + geddon is a great lock against creature horde.

I don't like chrome mox, i would rather push my lands up abit and use mox diamond instead.

Aven Mindsensor + Pte = nice yes, but when you hit your opponents creatures without aven and in the early stages of the game i feel that the tempo you are giving up is huge.

If you want another good casting is to power/toughness creature you may want to consider running Epochrasite
________________________________________

Maybe you could try this..

Lands [21]
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
3 flagstones of trokair
12 plains

Artifacts [10]
3 mox diamond
2 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
4 aether vial

Spells [10]
3 swords to plowshares
2 path to exile
2 oblivion ring
3 armageddon

Creatures [20]
3 mother of runes
2 burrenton forge tender
4 kazandu blademaster
4 serra avenger
4 aven mindsensor
3 baneslayer angel

SB
2 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
3 ghostly prison
3 aethersworn canonist
1 children of korlis
3 anything good against blue...
2 meta call...

About my list it was WG winnie list its basically white winnie with pridemage, goyf and choke.

[BKeola]

@_erbs_: I've often thought about a g/w weenie aggro deck featuring Pridemage, Goyf, Knight of the Reliquary and Terravore. As well as LftL, some cycle lands, Mox Diamond and Armageddon.

Then the deck starts begging me to splash red for Countryside Crusher and suddenly I have my RGW Aggro Loam list. Funny how that happens. Mox Diamond is hard sell for me in a deck that wants to run a low land count while abusing Armageddon.

Chrome Mox is a hard sell too, but I have more white cards to pitch to it than I have lands to pitch to the Mox Diamonds. I were to add the Diamonds the decks entire strategy would have to be reconsidered. I'm just not ready to do that at this point.

Chalice in the board is primarily to hurt combo. I can't think of any better hate other than possibly Orim's Chant/Silence, although this is debatable. Maindeck It just shuts down too many of my cards at any reasonable manacost. Against combo @0 or 1 im ok with that because hopefully it at least keeps me in the game.

I love the Canonists mainboard. They are huge in the Merfolk and Zoo matchups, and give me something to do MD against combo. Albeit, dropping one turn 2 is far from perfect.

The interaction with Mom is where they really shine. It essentially protects any creature your running from point removal. Unless your opponent shoots them on your turn, you tap out Mom to protect, then they shoot her on their turn. Still a 2 for 1 is card advantage.

Devaluing their removal and stopping <insert huge dude (that isn't progenitus :wink:)> while you beat face are both things an aggro deck of this sort need.

I could see cutting a Mom and adding a Mindcensor. This one is really up in the air, but Mom's overall deck synergy tips it in her favor for me.

Kazandu Blademaster: is easily the best new :w::w: card in Zendikar. vigilance+first strike+jitte seems pretty win. Too bad he needs Jitte to be any good.

Silver Knight: I used to love this guy, but I just don't see enough goblins now to make him good. He straight up loses to Wild Nacatls and Nimble Mongeese, which I see altogether too many of. Again, he needs Jitte to do anything nowadays.

Epochrasite: is big and vanilla and dies to a fully grown goyf. Sure he comes back 3 turns later and is E-Tutorable, but his lack of disruption/evasion means he suffers from the same issues as Blademaster and Knight.

All of these vanilla bodies compete with Serra Avenger for a spot in my eyes, and Avengers are just plain excellent, especially with SoFI in the board.

I want every other creature in this deck to have a dramatic impact on the state of the game every time it sees play. The three mentioned above don't jive with this idea.

Path to Exile: It isn't the huge tempo loss you make it out to be. Clearing the way for ground pounders isn't as relevant when 14 of my 21 creatures have flying (since after last nights testing the Mindcensor is in, flash really seals the deal) and the other 7 are disruption pieces that only swing into an empty field.

As a result I won't be likely to path anything smaller than Tarmogoyf. Swords in this case is a tempo loss for me, and one that Armageddon can't help mitigate. Zoo runs path over swords for the same reason, even without the Armageddon backup.

Swords would really just slow me down, but would probably be a much better choice in a slower deck like the one you suggested. Your build seems better prepared to use Armageddon more frequently. Trinisphere and Chalice in the main would seem to be moving toward Mono-White Staxx, which is a very different deck.

Ghostly Prison seems like a good card. It might be too slow to hurt Dredge the way I hope it would, and my Canonists seem to prevent other types of swarm aggro from ruining my day. I want to test it, but I don't know what I should cut to add it, as my sideboard space feels really tight. Seems like a card to keep in mind if I expect a meta full of Dredge.

Kor Skyfisher is still worth playing, however if I ever did cut him or any other card, I would most likely add the Blademasters.

Some things I have been considering:

4 Flagstones of Trokair. Muliples are bad, but only until you Armageddon once, and I do that most games. A second Flagstones would be nice to have post Armageddon just in case I draw another Armageddon.

3 City of Traitors. I find myself wanting more turbo land land most times I play this deck.

E-Tutor in the main. Pretty sure this won't fit, but all the fixing this card provides for one mana continues to sing its siren song. Counterbalance makes me want vial every game.

Aven Mindcensor If your opponent would search a library that player searches the top four cards of that library instead. WITH FLASH. AND FLYING. Not having this guy in the main from square one is a bafflingly huge oversight on my part. I'll be adding an updated list to the main post.

The Strategy with my deck:
Step 1: Power out an aggressive, disruptive board position. (Bonus points to cards that are both aggressive and disruptive)
Step 2: Beat face.
Step 3: Cast Baneslayer Angel. (If you don't have BSA its ok, just go to step four)
Step 4: Cast Armageddon, hurt your opponent more than yourself. (Chrome Mox, Vial, Skyfisher and Flagstones and Turbo lands make this easy)
Step 5: Beat more face.
Step 6: ??????
Step 7: Profit.

In all reality its never as simple as all that. However you can see why I run the cards I do mainboard. With no draw, this deck needs disruptive bodies to generate tempo and card advantage.

[Digital Devil]

Finally someone decided to revitalize the archetype by making a twist to its original counterpart. I have to agree with the fact that Cataclysm is pretty bad if you want to run equipments and Vial/Mox, since you always want them to accelerate you into big threats, but unfortunately this means if you have to cast Cataclysm you're taking a huge damage, too. Thus, I replaced it with Parallax Wave. I have to say that my build started with maindeck Cataclysm and I never played a different :2::w::w: spell in that slot. Now I play Parallax Wave (with 3x 'Clysm in my 15s) and I found it pretty good. It slightly improves the matchup againt heavyremovals.deck, as well as being a much more effective card against other aggro-control strategies. It weakens the Goblin/Zoo matchup (CIP effects, Pridemage), but it is worth the effort, since staying monowhite usually means we have smaller creatures than our opponents. Kazandu Blademaster is a pretty interesting card. It retains the same power of Silver Knight, while being strictly superior in multiples and more of a defensive card with its in-built vigilance. Aven Mindcensor should be a 10x in the deck, and I think it is worth the consequences you get from a deck check. I feel the same exact thing as the OP about Enlightened Tutor, except that it opens so many options it warrants a spot as a 2x in my mainboard. It is hurting my tempo, I know, but it doesn't do the same with my deck's consistency, because it isn't a 58-silver-bullet-deck. Fetching for Canonists, equipments, mana, Oblivion Rings and Parallax Wave is cool, and it also makes the sideboard more effective. I'm still not convinced about Baneslayer Angel over Exalted because I found the former be too slow. If you're afraid of removal just play a Mother of Runes first. In a deck with Mox and :2: lands Exalted Angel is still a pretty strong card, and Lightning Bolt/Swords to Plowshares/Force of Will weren't released in Zendikar. I understand why no one's playing Mask of Memory, because the evasive creatures (Mindcensor is the exception, as it's awesome) this deck has are pretty slow. I think it definitely needs something to accelerate its clock. But since it is a different version from the one I'm playing atm, my words are probably just a waste of space.

[Barook]

I could see cutting a Mom and adding a Mindcensor. This one is really up in the air, but Mom's overall deck synergy tips it in her favor for me.
Wouldn't be cutting Kor Skyfisher for Mindcensor better? Both fly, both have 2 power, except Mindcensor has an ability that is relevant against the majority of the format, while Skyfisher is only really relevant with a Vial set at 2. Otherwise, it's just a mere 2 power flyer with a potentially bad drawback. You still have Mom as (superior) creature protection.

[BKeola]

Mindcensor's are very much the stuff that win is made of. I'm convinced. I'm desperately seeking a way to fit the fourth as we speak. Might cut a Mom, maybe a Serra Avenger.

Maybe you weren't suggesting cutting Skyfisher altogether like I thought, but rather were suggesting trading one out for a Mindcensor. That seems like it could be good, as multiple Skyfishers w/o vial or turbo lands are obviously not very good.


Wouldn't be cutting Kor Skyfisher for Mindcensor better? Both fly, both have 2 power, except Mindcensor has an ability that is relevant against the majority of the format, while Skyfisher is only really relevant with a Vial set at 2. Otherwise, it's just a mere 2 power flyer with a potentially bad drawback. You still have Mom as (superior) creature protection.

Everyone keeps saying this, when the fact of the matter is Skyfisher works really well with the Armageddon plan with or without vial. As a flier he is a natural choice to carry Jitte, which he helps to speed into play without over extending your mana base.

Sample play: Three mana sources in play, one is a turbo land. Tap out for four mana. Play Skyfisher, bounce the turbo land, replay it, tap it again. Play and equip Umezawa's Jitte. You just so happen to have a 2/3 flier available. Lucky you. Vial just makes it better.

Bouncing lands isn't good in a normal deck. But with Armageddon, getting a better field faster, and with less land, is huge.

Another note. Vial stops at 2 with this deck. 11 out of 21 creatures agree, 2 is the sweet spot. So saying he is only relevant with vial at 2 is essentially saying he's only relevant when I have vial. I do run four vials maindeck afterall, and the janky e-tutor board helps get it more often when I can afford to be a bit slower.

Exalted Angel: I just feel like Aether Vial or Mom are more threatening turn 1 plays than morphing Exalted Angel. If its not played turn 1, then Baneslayer is strictly better in my book. Baneslayer costs me 5 mana in 1 turn. Exalted costs me 7 mana over 2 turns or 6 in 1.

PS: first strike, an extra power and pro demons (lol) are good against Tombstalker. I hear that guy is huge and stuff.

[_erbs_]

Maybe you missed it but.. how can ghostly be slow enough to stop dredge decks ?

You can cast it on your 1st turn. Turbo lands + Mox D or Chrome Mox.

I really don't like 19 lands in a deck that runs 3-4 armageddons and uses equipments. I would rather have more lands for less mulligans and throw away lands over spells / creatures as compared to chrome mox.

4 Flagstone of Trokair for me is not good, there are times 3 is not good aswell. Out of the radar decks like dragon stompy who runs moon effects hurts multiple flagstones.

If your really affraid of dredge or ANT remove the 2 silver knights in my list and add 2 children of korlis or 2 burrenton forge tender. 2 burrenton + 3 ghostly prison + 3 GY hate i think is sufficient enough to stop dredge decks.

E-Tutor is nice in searching for key cards but it would clash with aven mindcensor.

Yes in your list you have lots of creature evasion but i don't think kor skyfisher is worth it in this deck. If you really want flying vanilla's try Leonine Sky Hunter or Kor Aeronaut. You said you want creatures that have impact when it hits the board the skyfisher doesn't for me. If it had flash i would consider him but he is too dependent to vial same for Serra Avenger. I haven't tried running 4 serra avengers the most i've used was 3 and drawing her with no vials early on is crappy.

As for Baneslayer and Exalted Angel i haven't tried baneslayer but for now im leaning towards baneslayer over exalted. The morph stage is too fragile for me and lossing her at that stage is for me is not good.

Running another city of triators might be risky you might have problems casting double :w: but it still worth a test.

I would love to see angelstompy become competitive again but for me it needs more support cards like winnie to midrange creatures. Maybe worldwake would provide some nice cards.

Parallax Wave is a nice card but i would rather remove my opponents creatures via PTE before white doesn't had PTE, yes it saves your creatures or brings out an unmorph angel from its morph stage those things for me are just bonus. I look at parallax wave as a removal more of a creature saver. Before tarmogoyf and pridemages doesn't exists now with them present i don't think that the wave would be nice. Pridemage kills them easly, you help goyf get bigger by adding enchantment to your GY.

[Barook]

E-Tutor is nice in searching for key cards but it would clash with aven mindcensor.
Wrong:

http://www.wizards.com/global/images/magic/general/Aven_Mindcensor.jpg

[_erbs_]

@Barook
Thanks for the correction....

[TooCloseToTheSun]

This is the list I have been testing as of late

// Lands
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
9 [GUR] Plains
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
3 [LE] Windborn Muse
4 [M10] Baneslayer Angel

// Spells
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [B] Armageddon
4 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field
SB: 4 [WL] Aura of Silence

So this list is a lot more controlish than angel stompy of old but the point of this deck was to make it so any blue control deck you played against had to counter everything you play, and any aggro deck had to find a way to accelerate through your hate/threats making them exposed to a timely Armageddon. Also, if you run into a combo has a very hard time beating this deck.

Alright on to some card choices:

Aven Mindcensor - Can act like stifle in response to a cracked fetch land and also hoses tutors
Windborn Muse - Like prison but flies and swings
Baneslayer Angel - Gains life and hits hard and with chalice on the board it is very hard to remove
Crucible of Worlds - Gets your land back after Mox Diamond or Armageddon
Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Best control win condition ever
Armageddon - This card wins games after you drop a Baneslayer or Elspeth or it is great to just stall
Mox Diamond - I know the land count is kinda low but it is not really that bad.

[_erbs_]

@TooCloseToTheSun
Your list looks like more of angel stax as compared to the original angel stompy build which was aggro-control. Your build is more controlish.

[BKeola]

I know :2::w: is turn 2 and potentially turn 1 material. Against dredge t2 is frequently too late. t3 is almost certainly too late. Albeit with my current sideboard the earliest I get relevant hate is t2, the hate I get doesn't come into effect at the wrong end of their massive dredge combo, only to get Echoing Truthed or Chains of Vapored or whatever bounce dredge runs lately.

As fas as ghostly prison goes, I still think it's a good sideboard card. I'm not sure that I like it more than SoFI against most Aggro. Against Dredge, I have Relic/T-Crypt, which seems like it should be enough.

Thats why I feel like for me, its a good card to keep in my mind, just in case aggro/dredge start becoming a more frequent/difficult matchup. I do love the way it impacts the field. I think I'll test it out in place of a SoFI in the board. After all, its pretty rarely a totally dead card.

Also just a playtesting note: -1/-1 jitte counters + Armageddon > Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, Skyshroud Elves etc. I don't get to play much Zoo, but every card in the deck felt really good in that matchup.

I'm most worried about testing the Combo matchups, Dredge included, more. If anyone is interested or knows someone who might be, I could really use some help in this regard. Or if you have the time and know the people to test it yourself, and data you can provide would be much appreciated. Knowing how the deck fares statistically against the field is clearly the first step in improving its overall success.

[_erbs_]

@BKeola
In my exprience in playing an aggro white deck my best outs against combo are the cards which i've posted in the SB list.

- Aven Mindsensor - main stops most of combos cantrip and fetch
- Aethersworn Canonist - Storm based decks
- Ghost Prison / Horde Decks - paired with geddon will shutdwn any aggro decks. 1st or 2nd turn kills dredge
- Tormod's / Relic - stops GY decks
- Thorn of Amethyst - slows combo decks that need mana

I don't know what combos are present in your meta but the only combo decks i prepare for are: (Dredge Ichorid and ANT)

I know dreamhalls and dark depths are now in the radar of legacy if they would show strong fishes maybe i'll tweak my sideboards for them.

For me if your deck could stand toe to toe with the current tier 1 decks your deck is in good shape, you can't prepare for all types of decks

[Aleksandr]

- Ghost Prison / Horde Decks - paired with geddon will shutdwn any aggro decks. 1st or 2nd turn kills dredge


Not always, I many times won through Ghostly Prison with gigantic Troll.

[Digital Devil]

We should focus, rather than the specific "card vs. card" argument, onto the "card vs. strategy" element, which is vital in the process of building this deck. If you can't rely on bigger creatures, then you have to rely on clever creatures. The most interesting cards this color has access to are, IMHO:
Mother of Runes - grants immunity to spot removal, as well as being an eternal chump-blocker against non-evasive creatures (Tarmogoyf is the first of the list). It makes our attacks connect, and the bonuses it gives are a huge reason of why this card should be played. Q.ty depends on your deck's focus - but it should be played at least as a 3x. Nice synergy with Ethersworn Canonist.
Ethersworn Canonist - nice to have against storm based-combo, since it buys enough tempo to set the beatdown plan. After M10's release, the mana cost is no more an issue, even into a regular Stompy (8x :2: lands) shell. The relevant aspect of its inclusion should be the ability to prevent your opponent's 2+ spells turns. Of course Dark Ritual and Brainstorm ===> countermagic (or Ponder into a desperate blocker/removal) are the main examples, but there are more. Provides a soft lock with Mother of Runes against many decks, and comboes with Aven Mindcensor since your opponent is likely to still play Magic during his turn. After his spell's resolution, if you cast an Aven Mindcensor it is sure it'll hit the board. It dies to Qasali Pridemage and Krosan Grip, but these alone aren't reasons to not play it.
Aven Mindcensor - solid and evasive beater, as well as a permanent fetch hoser. Stops Natural Order, the Survival engine, and many, many other cards. It also has flash, so you can play it in response to a search effect to make your opponent's plans screwed.
Samurai of the Pale Curtain - I recently decided to play Samurai again. Mainly because it trades with Mishra's Factory, Nacatl, Mongoose, Pridemage, it trades with all goblins except for a not-attacking-alone Goblin Piledriver (and in the worst case it simply 1x1s with it), stops Bridge from Below triggers, permanent based recursion (Engineered Explosives + Academy Ruins or Crucible/fetchlands, for example), hoses all "is put into a graveyard from play" effects, and you can have this for :w::w:.
Jotun Grunt is also a nice creature to have against some graveyard-based strategies, but it alone can't handle the situation, since it is has a deathclock and is going to die soon after you cast it. The body is big enough to warrant playtesting, and the mana cost can also be supported by the regular Stompy shell, so it can be considered as a good inclusion. Of course the listed creatures act as well-trained soldiers, whose main focus is to mess with your opponent's deck. Mother of Runes is a tempo-generating machine and your creature's life insurance (The Rock, any x:w:x deck); Canonist preys on your opponent's spell anger (3sh, Enchantress, Dark Ritual based decks, mostly blue decks with cantrips); Mindcensor can either give you tempo or mana-screw your opponent, and lowers the % of losing to a silver bullet (Survival, decks with lots of fetchlands, also combo by stopping Mystical/Infernal Tutor); Samurai gives an edge against regular decks by being a threat as relevant as your opponent's, and it randomly kills some decks (Affinity, trades with most of the currently played creatures, temporarily slows Dredge). So we have wide options to deal with most of our problems, and the cool thing is that we can actually hate many decks without the fear of being hated. Being a non-exclusive but still underplayed deck, Angel Stompy has the advantage of not finding dedicated hate into its march to the higher tables. Is there a way we can exploit this to our favour, by making an all-around average anti-meta deck?

[BKeola]

Is there a way we can exploit this to our favour, by making an all-around average anti-meta deck?

This was my thought exactly. Samurai is a cool card, I just don't know what gets cut for him. Everything in the deck synergizes so well atm, its very hard to consider.

Your descriptions of cards in the above post are right on. And in a large tournament some maindeck hate on dredge is a must have. Sideboard hate just isn't enough. Samurai certainly fills that role admirably.

Do you have a sample list Digital Devil?

[Digital Devil]

This was my thought exactly. Samurai is a cool card, I just don't know what gets cut for him. Everything in the deck synergizes so well atm, its very hard to consider.

Your descriptions of cards in the above post are right on. And in a large tournament some maindeck hate on dredge is a must have. Sideboard hate just isn't enough. Samurai certainly fills that role admirably.

Do you have a sample list Digital Devil?
This is the list I'm running at the moment, but it's pretty rough and specifically tailored to deal with my metagame issues. Also, it's not v2.0, more like a v1.5
I'm not talking about my sideboard, either because there's nothing like a "universal meta", either because things like "my meta" are marginal and shouldn't involve the entire thread.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

// Lands
9 [10E] Plains
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
1 [MR] Ancient Den

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [JGC] Exalted Angel
4 [COK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 [REL] Figure of Destiny
3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
3 [FNM] Mother of Runes
2 [CHP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [NE] Parallax Wave
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [VI] Tithe
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
2 [MR] Mask of Memory
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MANA CURVE

0 xxxx (4)
1 xxxx xxxx xxxx xx (14)
2 xxxx xxxx xxxx (12)
3 xxxx xxx (7)
4 xxx (3)
5
6 xxxx (4)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, my choices are related to my own desire to be fast, thus my will to still play Exalted Angel. And since I want to be fast, I don't want to play creatures and then disrupt my opponent, I want my own creatures to do the disruption for me (Mindcensor/Canonist/Samurai). I play a low amount of equipments since I hate to be stuck with a Sword on the battlefield without something carrying it. And I don't consider Mother of the Runes to be a creature at all (given her mainly defensive role), so my creature base should be looked as a 20 creatures + 3 MoR , not a *23 creature* one. I play Enlightened Tutor maindeck just because I feel good at doing so, and because I have 8 maindeck targets. Jitte + Sword also shouldn't be looked as two stand alone equipments, because they fulfill the same purpose of critter removal. That said, I want to remind that my upper list doesn't have to be taken into consideration, because it's just a sample to understand why the decklist down there looks like this:

// Lands
9 [10E] Plains
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
0-2 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
1 [MR] Ancient Den [B](maybe with E-Tutor either in the main/sb)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [COK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
3 [FNM] Mother of Runes
2-3 [CHP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MR] Aether Vial
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
Still 13 free slots in the highest card count case. More mana, more creatures, more disruption, more bombs? These are the elements I think the list should have, not to mention a sudden twist it could take. The main problem is that if we're playing more than 4x :2: lands, then obtaining double white consistently becomes difficult, thus forcing us to either avoid playing Cataclysm/Wave, or to avoid playing 8+ :w::w: cards. Looking from this point of view, Armageddon seems a reasonable choice because of its converted mana cost. Playing Aether Vial makes this deck resilient and someway stronger against control, but slows us enough to make the Combo matchup even more difficult. This is the reason my personal list packs a full set of Chrome Moxen, but I also run so many removal spells that my creatures have a high % of connecting with an attack. Playing Aether Vial also means we can't afford to raise the mana curve too much, since then it becomes dangerous to say "Land, go" against a faster format than the original version used to be in. It'd be nice to fit in both 3x Mox and 3x Vials, but then our dead draws become too much and we can't even sift away useless cards with Mask of Memory or simply ignore them with SoFaI. Now, Zilla's 2-2-2 equipment split was pretty good, but it should be noted that 6 equipments often result into an opponent trying to do the out-tempo plan by removing our creatures in response to the equip ability. Then, all we get is an arsenal of Swords/Jitte/Masks. I understand Swords/Masks are our only available draw engine, and removing a draw engine hurts a whole deck's consistency, but Swords/Masks do nothing on their own, so we need an army of dangerous creatures which should be removed on sight, emptying our opponents' hand and overwhelming them with our maindeck hate. I just can't come up to a conclusion when thinking about this idyllic "anti-meta" vision: that's what we all want to achieve, and what this deck needs to stand a chance against the format.

[BKeola]

My thoughts on a few cards.

Armageddon: Against Zoo, when combined with Jitte, this card is a house. It keeps us in the game against any deck with a better late game plan than ours. Thats a pretty major benefit.

Mother of Runes: I have never once topdecked Mom and said "Gah this isn't what I needed". In fact Mom's are better in multiples. Especially with Canonist.

Aven Mindcensor: This guy is a house. He want's to be a 4x mainboard. Still don't know what to cut.

Chrome Mox: 4x feels like too many good cards in the yard. No draw makes this very relevant. Making the switch to BSA makes 4 less necessary.

Baneslayer Angel: In every scenario other than the still extremely fragile turn 1 play BSA is better and costs less total mana/time. BSA is what this deck needs. Its bigger than Tombstalker. It blocks and kills an average Goyf. Exalted Angel doesn't do this, although to be fair Exalted outclasses Goyf, just not as much as BSA does. For 2 total mana and a turn less on the morph play and 1 less on the hardcast, BSA is good.

Samurai of the Pale Curtain: I really dislike the idea of guys that don't fly in this deck. We need those swings every turn so badly that the benefit a non flier provides better be as good as stopping a bunch of t1 decks dead in their tracks. Or being part of a 2 card interaction that makes my dudes effectively immune to point removal.

Samurai hoses dredge without a doubt. However his 2/2 Bushido 1 self is kinda weak on the aggression front don't you think? Not flying with Jitte is a big check in the cons column of this guys ledger, alongside costing :w::w:.

Against Dredge, Samurai is a body that says no. Against Thresh he may or may not keep Goyf small. I know discussing sideboarding isn't usually relevant, however in this case I feel it is. T-Crypt is almost as good and usually faster.

Samurai is such a dilemma. My experience with D&T tells me I don't want him. But then again this a different deck. Samurai seems to be useful in alot of matchups and not necessarily dead in most others.

Think about the Paths, Armageddon and Mindcensor make them very one-sided. Swords is often just too much life for an aggro deck in this format.

He doesn't make the cut for my list, but he's still on the list of potential meta cards. For anyone not running Skyfishers, I guess he's the next best option for sure.

Seriously though I feel semi-retarded over here singing Skyfisher's praises while everyone just shrugs. Is nobody else liking him as much in my list as I do?

Disrupting targeted removal on any permanent with vial, or giving you a free body while you generate mana without overextending land seems good. Better in most games than a 2/2 Bushido 1 non-flying graveyard hoser. I feel like Skyfisher is the card that defines the new list and gives it tempo and disruption all at once.

PS: Still looking for people to playtest with. PM me.

[Digital Devil]

My thoughts on a few cards.
Of course.

Armageddon: Against Zoo, when combined with Jitte, this card is a house. It keeps us in the game against any deck with a better late game plan than ours. Thats a pretty major benefit
You're right about Armageddon. It gives a higher chance of winning in the late game against some decks. That said, it shares some problems with Cataclysm. What are you doing when your opponent's board position is better than yours? What happens if your opponent has access to a 5/6 for :1::g: or a 5/5 for :b::b:? To play bigger creatures, you need more mana than your opponent'd need. Of course you can still play them right before making Bruce Willis blow up, but aren't you supposed to win anyway if you have those gigantic creatures onto the battlefield? I've always had this kind of "win more" feeling about Armageddon. Cataclysm is symmetric, and forces us to avoid overcommitting. Parallax Wave and/or Elspeth are almost never dead draws.

Mother of Runes: I have never once topdecked Mom and said "Gah this isn't what I needed". In fact Mom's are better in multiples. Especially with Canonist.Sure, but when you're losing the race you are going to take other 4-6 damage because she needs to survive till your untap step. And with an empty field, drawing Mother is dangerous. It's not for the "multiple copies" issue, it's for the "against some decks it's just a 1/1/I don't need her in the long run" issues.

Aven Mindcensor: This guy is a house. He want's to be a 4x mainboard. Still don't know what to cut. Aven Mindcensor is the only reason I play Chrome Mox. I want to consistently drop him turn 1. Finding Mox/Tomb/Mindcensor becomes relevant in the first turns of the game. It's like 7% on the play and 10% of the draw (probably miscalculated), but sneaking it into play it's almost a guaranteed win.

Chrome Mox: 4x feels like too many good cards in the yard. No draw makes this very relevant. Making the switch to BSA makes 4 less necessary. Dragon Stompy doesn't draw cards, too (although you can say "they have the Hellbent" keyword to encourage the 4x count). Now, seeing that Dragon Stompy has some amazing turn 1 openings (Magus/Moon/Chalice, so about 11-12 cards which are gamebreaking if played earlier), we have to think in an analogic way. What do we want to play during our first/second turn? If your answer is Canonist/Mindcensor, go for Mox. If you want to play Mother or Skyfisher, Vial is better. Of course Mox leads towards playing Exalted Angel, but that alone isn't a reason to not just switch it for Baneslayers.

Baneslayer Angel: In every scenario other than the still extremely fragile turn 1 play BSA is better and costs less total mana/time. BSA is what this deck needs. Its bigger than Tombstalker. It blocks and kills an average Goyf. Exalted Angel doesn't do this, although to be fair Exalted outclasses Goyf, just not as much as BSA does. For 2 total mana and a turn less on the morph play and 1 less on the hardcast, BSA is good.I never want to block a Tarmogoyf if I have an Exalted Angel on the field. If I have Exalted Angel on the field, my opponent can't block my 4/5. And if he has a Tombstalker, either he decides to swing for 5-4, or he's trying to kill my Angel by keeping the demon on the defense role. Then, Exalted Angel is versatile because it can still be played the old way and earn you 8 life points swings in the early game, but both Exalted and Baneslayer are good in the late game. The 5 or 6 mana difference isn't a problem when you have a deck with Ancient Tomb. Of course a 5/5 for :5: is better than a 4/5 for :6:, but creatures with flying are seldom encountered, and the only one who can give us problems is Tombstalker. If you play StP, you have the same number of outs as your opponent's relevant threats. If you play Oblivion Ring, to some degree, math is in your favour. Don't waste StP on the first creature you see. Keep it for when you truly need it. And saying that Baneslayer kills Goyf is useless, since you're never keeping Baneslayer Angel untapped during your opponent's turn. Same goes for Exalted Angel. Both are good cards, one just fits a role the other doesn't.

Samurai of the Pale Curtain: I really dislike the idea of guys that don't fly in this deck. We need those swings every turn so badly that the benefit a non flier provides better be as good as stopping a bunch of t1 decks dead in their tracks. Or being part of a 2 card interaction that makes my dudes effectively immune to point removal.Zilla's original Angel Stompy packed 4x Soltari Priest and 4x Exalted Angel as the only evasive beaters. Imagine you have Baneslayers/Mindcensors/Avengers. Your evasive creatures count is higher. Then, why not play a 2/2 with built in-disruption, although non-evasive, which trades with most of the currently played creatures?

Samurai hoses dredge without a doubt. However his 2/2 Bushido 1 self is kinda weak on the aggression front don't you think? Not flying with Jitte is a big check in the cons column of this guys ledger, alongside costing :w::w:.The same thing could be said about Silver Knight in the older Angel Stompy build. No one ever removed him from the list, despite having a 2/2 body which dies to Mishra's Factory/Mongoose, a :w::w: cost and his lack of evasion. Now, imagine this is version 2.0: you have to play Samurai, because Knight was good when Isamaru/Savannah Lions were viable, but now we have Wild Nacatl/Qasali Pridemage.

Against Dredge, Samurai is a body that says no. Against Thresh he may or may not keep Goyf small. I know discussing sideboarding isn't usually relevant, however in this case I feel it is. T-Crypt is almost as good and usually faster.Crypt doesn't swing for 2 and doesn't carry equipment. If you use Crypt against Threshold, you're losing to a +1/+1 Goyf. Crypt is card disadvantage. Not to mention Samurai kills half of the creatures that deck plays.

Samurai is such a dilemma. My experience with D&T tells me I don't want him. But then again this a different deck. Samurai seems to be useful in alot of matchups and not necessarily dead in most others....which leads to the point where you're maindecking them.

Think about the Paths, Armageddon and Mindcensor make them very one-sided. Swords is often just too much life for an aggro deck in this format.I'd agree with you if this deck had reach. But since it doesn't, Path just makes your plans more easily disruptable, and nullifies your mana advantages given by Tomb.

He doesn't make the cut for my list, but he's still on the list of potential meta cards. For anyone not running Skyfishers, I guess he's the next best option for sure.I guess it's a better inclusion than Skyfisher simply because you can't rely on consistently hit the ground with Vial with a creature on the board which is going to be killed and Kor Skyfisher in your hand. Samurai is good on its own, and doesn't need Jotun Grunts/Kitchen Finks to justify its inclusion. Mom does what Skyfisher does, except that she doesn't swing for 2 and doesn't fly, but she protects your creatures better than KR does, and she also doesn't rely on a turn 1 Aether Vial.

Seriously though I feel semi-retarded over here singing Skyfisher's praises while everyone just shrugs. Is nobody else liking him as much in my list as I do? Disrupting targeted removal on any permanent with vial, or giving you a free body while you generate mana without overextending land seems good. Better in most games than a 2/2 Bushido 1 non-flying graveyard hoser. I feel like Skyfisher is the card that defines the new list and gives it tempo and disruption all at once.
If it had flash I'd agree with you. It doesn't, so I disagree. Think about every single card in a vacuum, then see if it also interacts with other cards. Faerie Stompy's not playing Sea Drakes because it saves your City of Traitors or because it "generates" mana, but because it's just damn good.

[_erbs_]

I guess to each is own, i was never really a big fan of chrome mox bec. you loss spells / creatures with it. I would rather have more lands for less mulligans and to power out mox diamonds.

As for samurai pale curtain.., i don't really feel the need for it. I would rather run burrenton forge tender over him if his only purpose is against dredge.

Kor skyfisher is okay with a vial online without a vial in play you need a knight of the white orchid to offest the permanent that you would return and propably that would be a land over a creature.

Armageddon is a strong card when used at the right time but yes its somewhat of a win more card unless your running lots of mana artifacts in where you could just geddon anytime limiting your opponents mana and making some of the zoo's creatures midgets.

[eq.firemind]

So now we have Stoneforge Mystic and his cool CIP ability.
Kor Skyfisher becomes better in my eyes now and I'll test 1-2.

Also, a nice thing: Skyfisher makes Tithe better (if you run it).

[BKeola]

Kor Skyfisher and Baneslayer Angel were the two cards that made me pick up Angel Stompy and start playing with it again. I've come to a couple conclusions in my testing over the past few weeks.

Mainboard needs to be against Counter-Top. This should be a resounding "Duh!" but I feel my current mainboard is far from optimized for this matchup. Game 1 on the play against an unknown deck, We should expect at least FoW and prepare for Counter-Top.


Aether Vial In order to not fail in an epic fashion against Counter-Top, this deck needs Aether Vial. All vial shenanigans aside, the deck needs to be faster and more resilient to disruption. Vial fits the bill. We need more than 4.


Ethersworn Canonist doesn't do enough against Counter-Top. I have 8 instants in my deck (10 now), they don't need to counter spells on their own turn against me often. Play a threat, pass the turn, counter a spell, pass the turn, repeat. I think cutting back on Canonist is the right call. She's good in enough matchups that moving her to the board seems right.


Oblivion Ring is great. It gets C-Balanced pretty easily, as most good C-Top players are ready for K-Grip at cmc:3:. It still has such utility that if I'm playing White with :2:lands their is no way its not mainboarded. 2 of seems to be working out fine.


Kor Skyfisher is perhaps "Danger of Cool Things". He has great interactions with half the deck if you play around his ability. Thats 8 cards at cmc:2: with abilities that make them good only after turn 3. At the earliest. I've come to realize that's a pretty big if. Maybe less is the right call. I'm going to test without him for a while since he doesn't add anything new to the deck except accel, and :2: lands are already pretty good for that.


Samurai of the Pale Curtain is big enough to stop Zoo from swinging with Apes, unless they have bolt backup. I can handle 3/3 Nactals that die from Jitte + Armageddon, so long as I don't have to deal with 5/6 goyfs. He swings into Merfolk for a few turns and against Goblins he blocks most things except Piledriver. Against anything with Goyf, Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds or against Dredge, his ability earns him a spot maindeck. Thats a pretty good chunk of Legacy.


Armageddon I've decided I don't want more than 1 in a game. Ever. Multiples are generally bad. The list needs more face beats anyway.


Enlightened Tutor x2 main is a tough call to make. I'm still not convinced this card is good for an aggro deck like this in Legacy. I know I certainly never want to see more than 1 unless It ends up being effective in hating combo ( I think it might) in which case we have the Chalices and 2x more in the board. Every time I think about the card I think, "I should just be playing more threats". However the threats that I need more of are already at 4 of and the cards I need less of include O-ring and Canonist. So there you have it, E-Tutor is in.


Sword of Fire and Ice As soon as I added 2 tutors in the main, I instantly wanted to be able to grab SoFI. Its just so good on a flier that I can't pass it up. Its an extra 4 damage per swing, just like Jitte, except its removal is better and it draws cards instead of gaining life. Not doing anything except giving the equiped creature +2/+2 if its not hitting face, and 1 more cmc to play makes a difference. However accel and a high evasion count make that difference not as big of a deal as in other decks. Even if its on Samurai, it still makes him a 5/5 in creature combat. Big enough for an average goyf, and more than big enough for the more likely mini-goyf when Samurai has been around since turn 2. Multiples are a little slow, but 1 with 2 tutors seems good.


Baneslayer Angel this card is the stuff win is made of, pure and simple. If she gets even one swing through to the dome its basically GG. Such a high cmc makes me reluctant to run more than 3, even though its probably the right call.



Changes I've made:

Main: -4 Kor Skyfisher, -1 Oblivion Ring, -1 Ethersworn Canonist, -1 Armageddon, -1 City of Traitors, -1 Flagstones of Trokair, +3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain, +2 Enlightened Tutor, +2 Plains, +1 Aven Mindcensor +1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB: -2 Enlightened Tutor, -1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Absolute Law, +1 Ghostly Prison, +1 Ethersworn Canonist.

This is my best attempt at an Angel Stompy meta deck. I'll be updating the main post accordingly.

Lands

9 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 City of Traitors
1 Ancient Den

Spells

4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Armageddon
3 Chrome Mox
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Creatures

4 Serra Avenger
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Mother of Runes
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Baneslayer Angel

Sideboard

2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Absolute Law
1 Ghostly Prison


eq.firemind: Stoneforge Mystic seems fun. With Skyfisher and some more equips maindeck it could make this list very agressive. I'm thinking something huge and overcosted as a 1 of. Maybe Deathrender would work. You would probably want to up your evasion count as well, so Soltari Priest might be worth considering. This gameplan would necessitate cutting alot of the disruption provided by the current creature base however, relying on your equips for tech and relevance. I think the concept is interesting and warrants some testing, however I feel like replacing the current creature base is difficult to justify.

_erbs_: Adding Mox Diamonds and upping the land count makes me want to play a more controllish game. It makes the deck want to become Trinistaxx in my eyes. I like the mix of threat density and acceleration that the current 3 Chrome Mox manabase brings. Your right though, to each his own, and I'm sure Mox Diamond is perfectly viable.

Ghostly Prison was perfect for the tutorbox in my testing. Is it ever a dead card maindeck in your experience? I found that against Counter-Top it didn't seem to do enough for me. Merfolk, Goblins and Zoo make up a larger part of the meta than Counter-Top alone however, so perhaps maindecking it is the right call. However, it seems to me if we start slowing down the deck and adding pure control cards to the mainboard we're on the slippery slope to Staxxville. Which in all honesty is a far better deck than this one.

Samurai is a permanent that shuts off Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds and makes Goyf stop growing. Dredge is just another reason for his inclusion. Burrenton Forge-Tender is better against Dredge, and good against Aggro Loam and any deck packing red sweepers Pyroclasm sized or larger. He will save you from Fireblast for the win, and protects admirably against Devastating Dreams and 1 turn of Seismic Assault. Absolute Law in the side is probably a better call for Aggro Loam and decks featuring burn. Against Landstill and 43Lands, Burrenton Forge-Tender just sits around looking awkward. Samurai blocks and kills a single factory and shuts down Life from the Loam or Crucible recursion.

I don't really like Knight of the White Orchid in this deck any more than I like any card that dies to Nacatl and costs 1 more mana. Nacatls are a huge reason why I don't like Samurai for that matter. Your absolutely right about Skyfisher being sub-par, just not for the right reasons. His drawback can almost always be used to some sort of tempo advantage, its just that playing the card this way without vial forces you to play it later in the game, which can make this deck really slow to start out with certain hands. The permanent isn't a loss if you Mindcensor a fetch or Armageddon later, however I understand that these are "Danger of Cool Things" combos. Which is why your right and Skyfisher is in fact bad. Knight of the White Orchid isn't going to make him any better either sadly. Samurai tends to make those very same slow hands better.

I don't think this deck has enough win without Armageddon. I think we need something that keeps us in the mid to late game. Armageddon is the best spell like that I can think of in white. It basically says :3::w: stop your opponent from developing board position. With Aven Mindcensor its hard for Thresh and Zoo to bounce back. With Samurai its surprisingly relevant against decks with Loam and Crucible. I still like it alot.

Digital Devil: Your right about Samurai. I like him as a three of. I knew when I started playing Skyfisher he was probably bad. Thanks for providing criticism and suggesting Samurai. It really helped me to think critically about what Skyfisher was doing for the list, and motivated me to test Samurai, who seems to be working out well.

Obligatory call for more testing, especially combo. PM me if you play ANT, Dredge or Belcher, or if you can provide insight into these matchups and the relevance of using Enlightened Tutor to find hate. My head tells me I need multiple relevant pieces of hate and E-Tutor + Chalice/Canonist, Samurai/Relic, Pithing Needle seems like a good start.

If anyone has matchup percentages for a list similar to mine I'll add them to the main post. I haven't been able to make it to a legacy tournament in months, so some of the newer stuff like Natural Order/Progenitus I haven't played as much against. All my testing has been on MWS which is unreliable at best. If anyone has any reliable data to contribute I would appreciate it very much. I've also been thinking about adding a detailed explanation of card choices and interactions to the main post.

As always, thanks for your continued contributions to, and interest in, making this deck better.

PS: It's been a hell of a couple weeks, but you can expect more frequent posts in the future.

[eq.firemind]

Mainboard needs to be against Counter-Top. This should be a resounding "Duh!" but I feel my current mainboard is far from optimized for this matchup. Game 1 on the play against an unknown deck, We should expect at least FoW and prepare for Counter-Top.

eq.firemind: Stoneforge Mystic seems fun.
Stoneforge Mystic pushes equipment through countermagic/Standstill (yeah, Merfolks, that SoFaI is for you). Vial pushes Mystic through countermagic/Standstill.
No, seriously, IMHO if something will bring this deck back to tier, it's this guy. He fits perfectly in both Mox and Vial versions of Tomb WW (As far as I don't run angels at all, I prefer to call it Tomb White Weenie instead of Angel Stompy).

I'm thinking something huge and overcosted as a 1 of. Maybe Deathrender would work.
I don't think you need equips that are awful topdecks. Jitte/Swords(/Mask of Memory) are enough for any situation.


<EDIT> I've found a picture (http://cgi.ebay.com/MTG-STONEFORGE-MYSTIC-x4-WorldWake-Presale_W0QQitemZ300390381805QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45f0a978ed) of actual card on E-Bay...
And I can't see the fucking tap symbol in his ability! I always thought you'll need to wait a turn to drop uncounterable equipment, but if the picture is real, the card is goddamn insane beyond any means! </EDIT>

[BKeola]

Its hard to think about cutting creatures to add this guy to my list. His vial for equips ability seems powerful, even if the :1::w: makes it kinda awkward. Could you post your list eq.firemind, so I can better understand how he fits into your overall strategy?

[eq.firemind]

Well, I like to make people read the cards they're playing against, so my list is a little odd. Anyway, here it is:

MANA (22)
10 Plains
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
2 Tithe

1-DROPS (12)
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

2-DROPS (12)
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Mask of Memory

3-DROPS (8)
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Augury Adept
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4-DROPS (6)
2 Kor Sanctifiers
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Parallax Wave

SIDEBOARD
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Armageddon
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender

Removal Pack:
4 Sword - obv
2 Path, 2 Sanctifiers - were 4 O-Rings, but I wanted more particularized cards, Path is good with Mindcensor and I wanted more aggressive early game. The 2/2 split works fine and the ability to exile Pridemages/Bobs/PIMPs now helps me alot.
1 Parallax Wave - was 4th Elspeth, but she has no -X abilities, so the second one clogged my hand to often, so I switched to even more removal.

Creatures pack:
3 Figure, 3 Mom - My variant runs enough :w: to support Figure and he doesn't lose his power when the game goes on. Mom is obv.
4 Samurai, 3 Canonist - Samurai are decent. I run 3 Canonists 'cause I don't run E-Tutor.
4 Mindcensor - obv AWESOME.
3 Augury Adept - test creature, I always wanted to abuse this card. Kinda creature+equip in one card. Also, I run Elspeth and lots of creature removal, so she connects pretty often. You can also push Adept with Mom. It's risky, but rewarding.

Elspeth:
I explained above why I don't run 4, but she is obv exellent. Most of the times you'll use her second ability to deal damage and connect Adepts/equpped dudes with opponent's face

Equips and Stoneforge Mystic:
1 Jitte/1 Sword/ 1 Mask split works OK for me. I tried some crazy equips, that's cool and funny, but not effective.
He is not fast, so I run only 3, but he provides so much needed CA. As for your list, I suggest -1 Baneslayer, -2 E-Tutor, -1 Jitte, +3 Mystic, +1 removal (O-Ring/StP). Angels (both Exalted and Baneslayer) are creature+equipment in one card just like Mystic, the Kor searches equip like E-Tutor (he can't find you O-Ring and SB stuff, but instead of -1 card you get +1 card).

[BKeola]

Augury Adept seems pretty bad. Blowing removal so she can connect and draw a card seems to be self defeating, and with Elspeth in play any other creature in the deck hits face just as hard, albeit without the card drawing aspect. When you have Elspeth making things fly, aren't you already winning?

Elspeth certianly warrants testing and most likely a place in the list. I'll have to work out what the weakest cards are currently to make room. 1x Avenger, 1x BSA for 2x Elspeth seems likely however.

Figure is the :w: drop I like the most. Like you said however, my deck will never get him past 4/4 and thats a major problem. 4/4 just isn't very big when every deck runs Goyf. I might run him if I cut Armageddon, but I still feel like thats one of the best cards in the deck.

Do you ever feel like Aether Vial would be helpful against Counter-Top? Sanctifier's seem like they will be able to handle C-Top about as often as O-Ring handles it for me, which is to say not very.

Also, any reason you run Light and Shadow over Fire and Ice? SoFI seems so much better.

The deck is stuck in a strange place at the moment. I keep wanting to turn it into Stax, which is probably the right call if I want to stay mono white unfortunately.

[eq.firemind]

Augury Adept seems pretty bad. Blowing removal so she can connect and draw a card seems to be self defeating, and with Elspeth in play any other creature in the deck hits face just as hard, albeit without the card drawing aspect. When you have Elspeth making things fly, aren't you already winning?
Blowing removal so she can connect nets you a card. Sometimes I use Mother of Runes to push Adept through blockers. Also, blowing removal to clear the way fits weenie gameplan, so she's more integral than you think.
But Adept is in the list just to test. Looks like she ends being pitched to mox too often :smile:.


Elspeth certianly warrants testing and most likely a place in the list. I'll have to work out what the weakest cards are currently to make room. 1x Avenger, 1x BSA for 2x Elspeth seems likely however.
Elspeths in my list were angels before (I tried both Baneslayer and Exalted). As I said before, I don't like angels 'cause a single spell for :w: can just deal with them. Elspeth is a) faster b) less hit-or-miss card. Also, my deck is more agressive, so I guess Elspeth fits there better.


Figure is the :w: drop I like the most. Like you said however, my deck will never get him past 4/4 and thats a major problem. 4/4 just isn't very big when every deck runs Goyf. I might run him if I cut Armageddon, but I still feel like thats one of the best cards in the deck.
Well, my deck can grow him huge, so turn 1 Figure brings troubles to Countertop. They have not too much removal, so they must handle the hobbit before establishing .


Do you ever feel like Aether Vial would be helpful against Counter-Top? Sanctifier's seem like they will be able to handle C-Top about as often as O-Ring handles it for me, which is to say not very.
Certanly it will help against countertop, but it will weaken other MU, like Zoo, for example.
Also, IMHO Elspeth is better than angels here 'cause she's at least 1 turn faster and IMHO you are aggro in that MU.


Also, any reason you run Light and Shadow over Fire and Ice? SoFI seems so much better.
That's mistake. 1 SoFaI main, 1 SoLaS in side. Corrected.


The deck is stuck in a strange place at the moment. I keep wanting to turn it into Stax, which is probably the right call if I want to stay mono white unfortunately.
Hmm... I want it to be as aggressive as possible.
But that's just me, I'm aggro player in heart.

[Digital Devil]

<list>
Your list looks like the one I'm playing at the moment.

MANA (22)
9 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Chrome Mox
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Tithe
1 Ancient Den

CREATURES (24)
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Exalted Angel
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic

SPELLS (14)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Parallax Wave
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Mask of Memory
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, the fact that our lists are almost identical (and we can't contact each other -due to the distance- if not via PM, which didn't happen) means we both feel the quantities of certain cards are correct, and they truly are. I really like this creature base, and the only reason I don't play Elspeth is because of Cataclysm in my sideboard, otherwise I would be playing her, too. The difference between our thought currents is that you want to be more aggro, while I'm addressing the deck to a more controllish role. That said, I think your deck wants to cover the aggro role in almost all matchups, while mine wants to behave 1) as an aggro deck against control/combo, and 2) as an aggro/control deck against other aggressive strategies. Your goldfish is much faster, while mine is slower. I'm giving up speed in order to cover some of the archetype's weaknesses. It's just a metagame issue, so I don't want the thread to be influenced by my words. Angel Stompy simply needs more pilots. And this:

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/worldwake/nlwypk19ct/EN/0020_MTGWWK_EN_LR.jpg

[overseer1234]

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/worldwake/nlwypk19ct/EN/0020_MTGWWK_EN_LR.jpg
Take 4 please.

No realy, tutor for jutte, swords,... heck, even the overcosted sh*t like tatsumasa, the dragon's fang, and stuf could work for this, as long as the equip cost isn't to much...

[eq.firemind]

Take 4 please.

No realy, tutor for jutte, swords,... heck, even the overcosted sh*t like tatsumasa, the dragon's fang, and stuf could work for this, as long as the equip cost isn't to much...
1) I started with 4, but went down to 3. Then I tried 2 and went back to 3. For now, 3 seems perfect number.
2) No, please no Tatsumasa and other shit. Just Swords, Jitte and Mask of Memory. Seriously, you never want anything else...

[eq.firemind]

Sorry for doublepost, but I have few ideas to share:

I'm almost happy with my list, but there is a thing I'd like to change/improve: 3 Augury Adept.
There are 2 ways: replace her with another dude or make her more usefull.
So I suggest 2 possibly-not-awful cards:
Soltari Champion - Unblockable equipment carrier, sometimes acts as a small free pump.
Spirit en-Dal - This one looks more interesting 'cause it has 2 functions: deliver equipments to opp's face or help other creatures to do that (the best part: shadow their lonely huge blocker and bash with all your weenies).
Also, works under Standstill and makes Augury Adept better :smile:.
Both cards have perfect cost for the deck's 3-drop, so I'll test :
1) 3 Champions as a replace for Adept.
2) 2-3 Spirits in place of various removal/utility(Paths/Wave/maybe even Elspeth) and possibly 1 Augury Adept.

Have anyone tested the abovementioned cards?

[BKeola]

eq.firemind:

Elspeth is pretty amazing. I can't believe I had glossed over her as a pure control card this whole time. While she is a great control card, her ability to toss disruptive groundpounder's or her own tokens is just what this deck needs. I'v completely replaced Baneslayer Angel in my list and cut Serra Avenger as well. The more I play with Avenger the more I feel like she is just too slow and vulnerable for her ability. I feel like with her exclusion, and the inclusion of Stoneforge Mystic, this deck now has more must answer threats. Which is a really good thing.


My current list:
8 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ancient Den
3 Chrome Mox

4 Path to Exile
1 Parallax Wave
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Mask of Memory
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Armageddon
4 Aether Vial

3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Mother of Runes
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Stonecloaker


Thats 13 1-drops, 10 2-drops, 9 3-drops, 6 4-drops. Considering all the 3+ drops are castable with :2: land, it has a nice fast pace and easy curve.

How about Soltari Visionary? His mana cost isn't as good as Champion, but he actually does something that seems very relevant to your deck. I think you have enough white to support him. He seems strictly better than Adept in my eyes. Not so sure about the forecast guy. The whole strategy of making Adept better is kinda goofy in my eyes. I'd just rather have cards that provide hate. And hating Counterbalance, Standstill and every other enchantment is pretty relevant.

As you can see I still feel the Armageddon+Vial plan is win. I'll post more about my list and maybe even a write up of sorts tomorrow.

[_erbs_]

How about running Flickerwisp over Stonecloaker. You could vial in Flickerwisp targeting Stoneforge Mystic and get another equip at the end of your turn.

I think running more equips paired with stoneforge mystic is a nice combo its a 2 for 1 card advantage. And just maybe running Empyrial Plate could work or something. I still don't know how stoneforge mystic would do in the current legacy meta but im guessing 60-70% of the time she will instantly eat removal cards from your opponent which is good because your other threats would be save. Another thing Kazandu Blademaster is a very nice creature for me offensively. Yes it has no protection nor other utility but in terms of combat effectiveness i think his really good.

Elspeth is nice but i would still want a creature in her spot. I don't think enlightened tutor is needed aswell. If your running only a few double white cards you could cut the vials and just add kor sanctifiers or devout witness to deal with counterbalance.

Spirit en-Dal might have potential.

The list looks so fragile / weak in the sense that it can't stand toe to toe with zoo's creatures. Its slow becoming more of a fish-type white winnie deck.

[eq.firemind]

My current list:
<list>
.....
2 [cards]Stonecloaker
</list>
Are you sure about this? I've tested it and it felt out of place. It's dead card against empty field and it's bad when you only have Mother of Runes or only Aven Mindcensor or only equipped creature...



How about Soltari Visionary? His mana cost isn't as good as Champion, but he actually does something that seems very relevant to your deck. I think you have enough white to support him. He seems strictly better than Adept in my eyes.
Soltari Visionary needs some tests, thanks for pointing out.

Not so sure about the forecast guy. The whole strategy of making Adept better is kinda goofy in my eyes. I'd just rather have cards that provide hate. And hating Counterbalance, Standstill and every other enchantment is pretty relevant.
I tested Spirit en-Dal a little. Forecasting through Standstill or countermagic wins games. The card is certanly not bad. IDK if it's better than other cards, but it offers some realy nice things.
Regarding Augury Adept:
I still have mixed feelings about this card. It is not good card in vacuum, that's for sure.
But. Every card that makes Adept better (like removal, Elspeth, equips, Mom, en-Dal,...), makes the whole deck's gameplan (bash, clear the way, repeat 'till win) better. Here's the trick: I don't try to make Adept better, I try to make gameplan better. And as the deck becomes more concentrated, Adept strangely becomes a better fit.


As you can see I still feel the Armageddon+Vial plan is win. I'll post more about my list and maybe even a write up of sorts tomorrow.
I don't like Vial, but I agree with you and Digital Devil that seal-the-deal spell (Armageddon or Cataclysm) is good in this deck.

Now, how usefull is Geddon against CounterTop? I didn't tested the MU much, but Geddon looks not very bright.
If I manage to apply pressure early, it seems that I already winning and more punch power (like Elspeth or equips or more dudes) will seal the deal just like Geddon. And if he stabilized and it is midgame, Geddon will not do anything good at all. Am I right?
BKeola, the question is mostly for you 'cause you want to improve your countertop MU and still run Geddon MD. So, maybe move it to SB and maindeck some Sanctifiers and/or more O-Rings (ofcource if I'm correct about Geddon in CBTop MU)? I understand that your list is little more suited to take advantage of Geddon, but...

Also, there are 4 Vials and 17 creatures in a deck with no cantrips and 2 of them are Stonecloakers. I think you need to increase your creature count. Epochrasite comes to mind 'cause it's good with Vials and you can E-Tutor it if you need and cast it from :2:-lands.
Also, _erbs_ suggested Flickerwisp wich is good with Epoch and awesome card on its own in deck with Vial.
2 Canonists look strange - IMHO if you want to draw it, you need to play at least 3 and if you're going to tutor it, 1 is enough.
With all that, I suggest you can try -1 City of Traitors, -2 Stonecloacker, -1 Canonist +1 Plains, +2 Flickerwisp, +1 Epochrasite.

General question: What do you think about Kor Firewalker? I guess he could only find his spot in SB (for example, in place of Burrenton Forge-Tender). The thing is, BFT helps against Dredge and Devastating Dreams/Firespout adn thus BFT is better, but maybe I miss something? Like, if your meta is full of Gobbos and GoyfSlight and have no Dredge?

[BKeola]

eq.firemind:

As far as Armageddon vs. Counter-Top goes, newer versions have been running "NO, Progenitus" combo as well and a few other 4 drop spells (I've even seen lists with Elspeth. :eek:) They usually run about 20 lands which is pretty typical for a deck with cantrips. That seems to make them pretty susceptible to global LD. At very least they seem to be running an increased amount of 3 drops to help against K-Grip. If I can catch them at 3 lands, Armageddon will basically halt all board development until I finish eating their face with dudes pitched by Elsepth. Doubly so with Mindcensor in play. It might not happen in game 2, because they will likely be ready with some land either in hand or on top of the library, or just be holding onto a force. Those are still cards in hand that aren't a threat however, which strengthens our odds.

Opponents never expect Armageddon initially, and you can often catch them with their pants down. The deck needs a game winner, and Armageddon is it. Cataclysm is bad against Thresh, and by extension 50% of Legacy. It also destroys Elsepth, who we both agree is an amazing card. Armageddon has such great synergy with my deck, that the thought of cutting it for a card like Figure of Destiny (still a favorite of mine, however I don't think any deck but Imperial Painter can really support him) isn't really on my to do list for making the deck better. Figure just takes too long to become bigger than Goyf and costs too much of the wrong kind of mana to get there.

As fas as Kor Firewalker is concerned, I think this deck has a pretty good game on Goblins mainboard, and it only gets stronger with the inclusion of Absolute Law + Ghostly Prison in the board. Burrenton Forge-Tender is almost strictly better than the Firewalker in my eyes. Even in a meta infested with burn, my deck has 6 ways to get a Jitte up and running mainboard. The Aggro Loam matchup is feeling pretty winnable with Samurai and Stonecloaker in the main, and Absolute Law in the board. Dredge is also hated against pretty effectively by the new list.

The Vial/Creature count does feel a little out of whack in the new list, especially considering that only 11 or so of those creatures are ever going to see vial action. Realistically the number of guys that were likely to get vialed has only gone down by 2, while the number of guys that hate against prevalent threats has increased. Cutting Stonecloaker would bring things back to normal.

I'm open to the idea of running more disruptive creatures, I just can't think of any I want to maindeck or what I want to cut for them. O-Ring keeps getting worse at dealing with Counterbalance, and Kor Sanctifiers really aren't any better. Still, something is better than nothing to be sure.

Stonecloaker is for testing. I played him in D&T ages ago, and he is one of those cards nowadays that you end up playing around more often than not. However, his ability to ruin Dredging seems pretty good. Saving dudes from spot removal, being a 3/2 flier in a deck thats sorely wants evasive beats, his increased speed, and synergy with Mystic are all things that made me want to test him. He will most likely be cut here for the same reason he was cut in D&T, which is because he is no longer is able to do his thing with combat. Additions would be +1 Samurai +1 Mother. I'm still not 100% and he really seems like a meta call.

2x Canonist seems like the right call because of the synergy with Mom and how effective they are against Zoo/Merfolk. 2 is enough with 2x Tutor that I can have 1 when I need it, and still not have more than 1 when I don't.

Epochrasite was considered, but then dismissed as being a 2 drop that was smaller than Goyf that didn't provide hate. He is probably the single best vanilla creature available to this deck. Recurring eventually is a nice touch as well. All and all I'm OK with how fast the deck is, What I'm most interested in is making it more disruptive and resilient without greatly reducing the speed.

Flickerwisp is decently sized, fast, evasive beater, that seems good with Vial. I don't really like the idea of going to 3 with Vial however, as it takes forever and then makes me want to play Mangara as well. I think sticking with the :2:lands and dudes with :2: in the cmc whenever possible is the ticket.

Also, just for laughs Lightning Greaves. Free haste for everyone seems pretty decent. Shroud on relevant creatures seems good too, even if it is redundant with Mom. Not drawing cards or increasing our overall creature size seems like a pretty major downfall. Just thought I'd toss it out there as a potentially not jank option. The deck probably doesn't need it, but its definitely better here than Tatsumatsa or Deathrender, heh. We can certainly be considering new equips as an option, although there isn't really anything better than what we already have.

Spirit en-Dal seems like it could be good and the cost to hardcast fits the deck. I feel my list currently has a respectable amount of aggression (I run 17 creatures + 3 Elspeth and the usual complement of aggressive equipment) and is really in need of more disruption in order to win games. I like the potential of the forecast ability as temporary removal, but feel the mana cost is cumbersome and the effect is too temporary, and therefore mana intensive if we begin to rely upon it to make contact.

I like early Vial for the same reason you like an early Figure I suppose, because it deals with Counterbalance and Standstill by giving you a way to keep your board relevant. While Vial does get blown up often, it usually manages to ensure that my equips stick. And if they're busy crapping their pants dealing with vial in order to make Counterbalance relevant, they're busy not hating the rest of the deck. With Stoneforge Mystic, if they don't deal with Vial, then I will eventually sneak around them with Elspeth or an equipped flier.

Its my feeling that if I get Aether Vial online, it dramatically improves my odds of winning the game in every matchup except combo and Zoo, where it gets sided out. Those 2 combined don't yet makeup enough of legacy, or enough of this decks problem matchups, to make me want to cut it. For that matter adding more beats that aren't Tarmogoyf or Nacatl aren't likely to help against Zoo either. If I do cut Vial, I will probably cut Armageddon as well and maindeck Figure+Sanctifiers.

What does your meta usually look like eq.firemind? I'd like a better idea of what decks you typically play against and how a more aggressive plan has been playing out for you. Playing as many 1 and 2 drops as this deck does has given me a healthy fear of Counterbalance and Standstill, both of which Aether Vial is strong against.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_erbs_:

Zoo is going to be pretty much impossible to reliably out Aggro. Nothing in :w: is bigger than Goyf or Nacatl. If we can't out-run them, then we need to be able to out-hate them. Every card in the deck fits into the Zoo matchup and makes it more winnable, with the exception of Aether Vial. Aether Vial is a necessity considering the amount of decks that run Standstill and Counterbalance. Its easy enough to cut for Ghostly Prison, Absolute Law a Jitte and either another E-Tutor or Canonist depending on if they run Fireblast or not. I don't think :w:, no matter how aggressive the list, is capable of having a positive Zoo matchup through agression without losing alot to every other deck in trade. Not having the reach burn provides is major speed disadvantage that requires major sacrifices to overcome.

I still feel an aggressive gameplan is what defines the deck, however since I don't think we can become faster while maintaining overall metagame strength, that leaves as our only option making them slower. That means early Samurai to minimize Goyf, Mindcensor to mess up fetches, Canonist to say no to bolt+bolt+blast etc, Mom to pro-block and protect those other 3 from bolts, as well as all those fun equip cards to make our game faster. Elspeth to generate chumps and send our disruptive dudes at their face. Armageddon to make everything they play a 1/1 except for Goyf and Pridemage. Not to mention all the synergy those cards have with each other. The deck seriously has a ton of it, and with 7 :2:Lands most of it is relevant against Zoo.

As fas as Kazandu Blademaster goes, didn't the M10 rules change break responding to first strike damage? Even with SoFI 6-7 mana later, he folds to an average Goyf. Could you be more specific as too the times/situations when you feel like he's good? I agree that First Strike, Vigilance and getting pumped from multiples is good. I just think he's too small for Legacy, when Goyf is the bottom line for how big a 2 drop without a great ability needs to be.

I do like Devout Witness. Shes the sort of pro-active answer to Counterbalance/Standstill/Vial etc this deck needs. I'm thinking I'll test her in place of Stonecloakers before I bring Mom and Samurai up to 4x. Pitching cards sucks, but the alternative is clearly worse.

I agree that Enlightened Tutor is far from optimal, however so is not having Aether Vial down by the end of t2 against most decks in my eyes. Having 3 O-ring main felt like too much, as did 3 Canonists. I'm not 100% it was the right call to make, but the deck has been winning more, so there is that. I don't think I would run more than 2 unless I was sideboarding to hate a specific strategy that totally wrecks me. (Aggro Loam, Dredge, and Storm Combo spring to mind.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some general thoughts:
Elspeth is crazy good, and the deck is starting to feel pretty finished.

Two changes are going to be tested:

-2 Stonecloaker, +2 Devout Witness
-4 Vial, -2 E-Tutor, -2 Armageddon, -1 City of Traitors, -1 Flagstones of Trokair, +3 Figure, +2Visionary, +1 Jitte, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Canonist, +2 Plains.


Sideboard space in the second list means the default board for a large tourney goes from:


4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Absolute Law
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Parallax Wave

to

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Absolute Law
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Parallax Wave

I'm still sold on Vial and such personally, but I'm willing to test new ideas to see how they work.

Deckcheck seems to show comparatively little success lately, the only list with a t8 is a White Chalice Aggro variant that seems to have more in common with Dragon Stompy than the Angel Stompy I know. Still it might be the right call for the deck, seeing as it has actually put up some results.

If anyone has tournament reports to share, I'd love to hear how its been going.

I have the day off, so I'll probably write up a primer of sorts for the list, including some analysis of card choices.

P.S. Sorry for the wall of text.

[_erbs_]

Hmm.., i don't know if its just me but the deck is slowly becoming more white-winnie fish over what Angel Stompy was deisgned to be. Im not saying its bad but AS maximized its turbo lands to bring down permanents quickly as possbile and close the game via geddon.

No 2 cc card currently could come close to tarmogoyfs. M10 rules didn't change the first strike rules thus first strike + jitte is still very good.

[eq.firemind]

What does your meta usually look like eq.firemind?
Lately only MWS unfortunately - life eats much time :smile:
But as far ad I know, my meta is very random, people like to play different decks and CBTop is not popular at all.
Some Merfolks, different Survival (NO+Elves, Rock-Sur, GWB Sur-Advantage,...), Affinity, Landstill, Tempo-Thresh, Faeries, Trainwreck, Enchantress, Aggro-Loam, combos from Dream Halls to Dredge,...
You'll never guess...
So my thoughts must be taken as theory. But I like this deck and want to improve it, so I never suggest something without logic and MWS tests behind it.

I like the idea of Devout Witness very much. Dropping Witness on turn 2 against Merfolk so they can't do Vial+Standstill shit seems very very sexy.
Proactive > Reactive in this deck, so I'll try -2 Sanctifiers, +2 Witness.

Vial or not Vial question becomes Vial vs Figure question in my eyes.
I think there's no clear winner. It's more metagame/playstyle.
Vial: Better against blue. Worse against Zoo and non-blue control decks like Rock or Trainwreck. Bad topdeck in mid-late game.
Figure: worse than Vial against blue, but still good. Better against Zoo and non-blue controls. Never bad topdeck.

White decks always suffered from lack of card draw/selection (IMHO E-Tutor is bad 'cause the deck lacks both selection and draw and Tutor just trades one for other, thus giving the same overall result).
My main argument against Vial is that it's bad topdeck, thus it makes the main trouble only worse. But now we have Stoneforge Mystiс as both selection and card advantage (and he also fucks Standstill and countermagic), so Vial version becomes more attractive.




Hmm.., i don't know if its just me but the deck is slowly becoming more white-winnie fish over what Angel Stompy was deisgned to be. Im not saying its bad but AS maximized its turbo lands to bring down permanents quickly as possbile and close the game via geddon
That's because modern Geddon StaX just does it better and format in general becomes much faster, so the deck can't win on pure explosiveness anymore.
To adapt, we need to find other ways...
The current one is kinda "Weenie Stompy" - the weenie "fast not-so-big beaters+clear the way" combined with AS acceleration wich allows to run some expensive (for weenie) cards and speeds up equips to make the whole gameplay more explosive.

[Digital Devil]

Speaking about Basilisk Collar, I'm liking the idea of a 1cc equipment in the toolbox. Basilisk Collar also seems to love Silver Knight. An equipped Knight kills any other creature blocking or blocked by it, before it even has the chance to damage the 2/2, thus making it pretty strong. Giving lifelink to a creature seems good in a deck with Ancient Tomb, and drawing multiple Jittes is sometimes far from optimal. With Collar our critters can trade with Tarmogoyfs, Tombstalkers, and if we were able to sneak a flier in the first turns of the game, even Iona suddenly becomes less of a threat. Paired with Knight, Collar smashes any red based deck, and solves the problem of our creatures <being smaller than our opponents'>. First Strike + Deathtouch is obviously good. I just don't know what to cut for Collar. And I want to play again Silver Knight. I'll probably drop my 3x Figures of Destiny for a Basilisk Collar, an additional Mother of Runes and the fourth Stoneforge Mystic, although I'm not sure about it. Then, I could switch Samurai of the Pale Curtain for Silver Knight, but even then, how can I match Ichorid and/or permanent based recursion? I hope to be enlightened by someone.

[eq.firemind]

Speaking about Basilisk Collar, I'm liking the idea of a 1cc equipment in the toolbox. Basilisk Collar also seems to love Silver Knight. An equipped Knight kills any other creature blocking or blocked by it, before it even has the chance to damage the 2/2, thus making it pretty strong. Giving lifelink to a creature seems good in a deck with Ancient Tomb, and drawing multiple Jittes is sometimes far from optimal. With Collar our critters can trade with Tarmogoyfs, Tombstalkers, and if we were able to sneak a flier in the first turns of the game, even Iona suddenly becomes less of a threat. Paired with Knight, Collar smashes any red based deck, and solves the problem of our creatures <being smaller than our opponents'>. First Strike + Deathtouch is obviously good. I just don't know what to cut for Collar. And I want to play again Silver Knight. I'll probably drop my 3x Figures of Destiny for a Basilisk Collar, an additional Mother of Runes and the fourth Stoneforge Mystic, although I'm not sure about it. Then, I could switch Samurai of the Pale Curtain for Silver Knight, but even then, how can I match Ichorid and/or permanent based recursion? I hope to be enlightened by someone.
@ Baslisk Collar
The 1-costed equip was my first thought in a deck that runs :2:-lands and Mystic, but I've changed my mind pretty fast.
Collar had the same feelings as Augury Adept - it does something, but it doesn't do things good enough/better than other cards you could put in its slot (2nd Jitte or Mask of Memory).

@ Silver Knight
I think Samurai of the Pale Curtain is plain better in current metagame. Knight shines vs goblins, but, well, Samurai is almost as good against them. Knight can't be bolted, but Samurai trades with Nacatl. Also, Samurai wrecks Affinity and Dredge, so we don't need to waste too much space in SB for GY-hate.
Also, I'm against more than 3 equipments in our 60 (pre- and post-board). We had to run 4+ and there were plenty of times when it was a dead topdeck, but now we have the wonderful Stoneforge Mystic.

@ Variant with Vial.
I tried it and was not very happy (MWS-ed Bkeola's list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16063-[Deck]-Angel-Stompy-v2-0&p=425106&viewfull=1#post425106), but without E-Tutor). But that's all about personal preferences, the deck performs good, I just don't feel comfortable with it.
The one thing that hits me is that Vial enables Flickewisp's awesomeness and I started to work that way. It led me very far, but I think the result has some serious potential.
I don't know if this is DnT on steroids or Angel Stompy with a twist, but it's close to what I wanted to build for a very long time.
The original DnT had problems with Combo and NO=> Progenitus, but the abilty to cast Canonist or Thorn on turn 1 realy makes Storm MU better and fast Mindcensor screws Natural Order.
On the other hand, I happen to lose to Iona on white with Angel Stompy. DnT just runs Vial => Mangara and Karakas to laught at all that Ionas and Marit Lages.

Anyway, here's my list (yet raw, but I already won some MWS games vs non-casual Legacy decks in a very devastating manner)
9 Plains
4 Karakas
3 Wasteland
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Chrome Mox

4 Aether Vial
3 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Mask of Memory
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

SIDEBOARD:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 free slot...

The main issue to solve here is manabase. The 22 manasources (including lands, Moxes and occasional Tithes) and minimum 14 white sources (includingPlains, Karakas, Mox, Tithe) are the right numbers (I wanted to keep Wasteland, so I dropped Figure of Destiny for Mother of Runes to decrease the necessity in white mana), but the moxes/Tombs/Plains proportion is the question I need to answer...

Will be glad to hear your comments!

[Digital Devil]

@ Baslisk Collar
The 1-costed equip was my first thought in a deck that runs :2:-lands a.The card looked powerful on paper, but in fact, it isn't. Jitte is better @ both gaining life and killing creatures, although Collar does it now, while Jitte does it later. I thought it was a nice addition to the sideboard to preemptively fight Iona or Zoo creatures. Simply run more Jittes, and the outcome will be the same. So, I removed Collar from my sideboard.


@ Silver Knight
I think Samurai of the Pale Curtain is plain better in current metagame.While I do agree, there's another option I've been reconsidering: Jotun Grunt. The main reason is that it doesn't die to burn, unlike Serra Avenger, while it has almost the same restraints of being able to play it later in the game. It fulfills the same purpose as Samurai, hating graveyards and trading with bigger creatures. With Stoneforge Mystic, I can now search for Sword of Light and Shadow and recur the Giant Soldier, too. I'm playing 2x Grunts now, in place of Samurai.


I don't know if this is DnT on steroids or Angel Stompy with a twist, but it's close to what I wanted to build for a very long time.
The original DnT had problems with Combo and NO=> Progenitus, but the abilty to cast Canonist or Thorn on turn 1 realy makes Storm MU better and fast Mindcensor screws Natural Order.
On the other hand, I happen to lose to Iona on white with Angel Stompy. DnT just runs Vial => Mangara and Karakas to laught at all that Ionas and Marit Lages.
Iona can be a problem, that's why I play Karakas, now. Only 1x, because I don't play any Legend, but it's better than a regular Plains, and also stops Marit Lage, Braids, Gaddock Teeg, Llawan, Rafiq of the Many, Doran. They're alll niche creatures, but it's surprising to see many situations solved by just switching a Plains for a Karakas, and with the sifting power of Mask of Memory, I have some way to quickly find the out. I know a non-tutorable singleton acts much like a "ZOMG I TOPDECKED MY DEADLY THREE-THOUSAND-HEADED BURNING ULTIMATE DRAGON OF EVERLASTING TORMENT", but playing too much of those could hurt the deck's consistency while also making it vulnerable to Wastelands. I used to play 4x Ancient Tomb and 2x City of Traitors and wasn't afraid of Wasteland. So I still won't be afraid of Wasteland with 4x Tomb, 1x Ancient Den and 1x Karakas. Of course I don't rely on it, and it is just a minor issue, but I don't like to just say "ok" without being able to do something.


SIDEBOARD:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 free slot...Really nice. I realised only now that Burrenton Forge-Tender says "Prevent all damage a red source would deal to you this turn". The card is insane. Not only it removes Bridges from Below, and is good at crushing red based strategies, it even handles Progenitus. And with Sword of Light and Shadow in my 60, it can even be recurred. I'm playing 3 of those in my sideboard, too.



The main issue to solve here is manabase.
MWS manalizer can solve all of your problems. I suck @math, that's why I rely on this MWS feature to build my manabase. I know 6 "Wastelandable" lands is ok, since this statement derives from empyrical data I collected, but I don't know what is the correct number of colorless mana-producing lands, assuming you have to put Vial in the equation. I would've done it for you, if only I had the time to copy/paste your list on my MWS board. I know it takes about 15 seconds, but I don't even have 15 spare seconds now.

[zabuza]

I´m very interested in this deck because is close similar to one i was developing. The eq.firemind´s list is closest to mine, but I´m still thinking about several cards that i would like to play.

First of all i think silver knight is a a house nowdays. Almost every removal played in legacy is red (burn) or white(swords/path) so this dude skips half of the removal. Combined with mother of runes or Eight-and-a-Half Tails can be a nightmare to every deck in legacy.

Because i think now is mandatory playing karakas (3x is the right amount of them) in every white deck because ionas marit lage and so are verywhere I think this deck can exploit that fact by playing good legends to be abused too. Mangara is here to combo out with karakas but perhaps we could play a single copy of Eight-and-a-Half Tails and Isamaru. The first provides a bouncereable creature that gives protection to ouir creatures too (like mother does) but with a different cost and that can be saved with karakas when needed. Beside of that the mana you neeed to pay it´s ability can be payed with tomb lands so I think it could be playable here. The single copy of Isamaru is because you can block forever any other big dude till you arrive the sate of the game you want.

I think jotun grunt is better than Samurai of the Pale Curtain because jotun is bigger (so bolts doesn´t kill him), can recover equipment you´ve lost (so you can recover jitte´s and swords and collar), have more impact on the game and using flickerwisp reset the counters of jotun when needed.

If you play knights I would play a single copy of basilisk collar because this gives you the chance of being the master of combat phase. With mystic stoneforge you can search for it if needed or jitte´s or so.

To take care about progenitus you have Aven Mindcensor (for NO),tariff, retribution of the meek, runed halo,...., so I think it´s not a problem at all.

I think I wouldn´t play wasteland because you need as many white mana as you can get. Instead I would play a couple or three flagstones of trokair there.

Another dude i think can be played here would be knight of the white orchid because it give us the mana we need. Played with vial or flickerwisped or so gives you land advantage. What do you think??

[Digital Devil]

*EOT Mystical Tutor searching for Exhume, shuffle, untap, cast Exhume on this thread*


I think jotun grunt is better than Samurai of the Pale Curtain because jotun is bigger

While I do like Samurai, I came to your same conclusion.


Another dude i think can be played here would be knight of the white orchid because it give us the mana we need. Played with vial or flickerwisped or so gives you land advantage. What do you think??

Nice choice for those who play a Death'n'tax-esque build, indeed. I'm willing to keep the regular AS Stompy shell, so I was developing a new list of mine. Placed 2nd at a veeeery small tournament, losing to Goblins (*me sad*) in the finals. I played and won against Elves with NO, Vaka Pox, Landstill, Merfolk, Elves with NO (again), but I felt a bit frustrated when I lost 1-2 to mono red Goblins (packing Lightning Bolt). Here is my abomination.

8 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ancient Den
1 Karakas


4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Exalted Angel
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mother of Runes
2 Jotun Grunt

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Chrome Mox
3 Parallax Wave
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Tithe
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Mask of Memory
1 Umezawa's Jitte
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, I don't feel *comfortable* with my list, although I like a lot how it behaves. So I was searching for help. Should I:

1) Keep my list the same
2) -3x Parallax Wave, +3x Cataclysm
3) -2x Enlightened Tutor, -1x Figure of Destiny, +3x Mana Tithe
4) -3x Parallax Wave, -2x Enlightened Tutor, -1x Figure of Destiny, +3x Cataclysm, +3x Mana Tithe

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been playing Parallax Wave lately, and I like how it helps me protecting my creatures, as well as defending me from lethal damage, or removing blockers to make equipments connect. But I find some other matchups (Merfolk/Goblins/Enchantress) to be more difficult without Cataclysm. Since it feeds Jotun Grunt, I think it could be played again. What new interactions are possibile, if I modify the deck the way I listed upwards?

1) Nothing
2) Cataclysm feeds Grunt, allows me to keep Canonist + Creature/creature + equipment, potential 3 mana boost after playing the spell (keeping Ancient Den/Chrome Mox as artifact, Plains as my land and with Flagstones hitting the graveyard). Cataclysm is a massive board sweeper: some decks tend to recover from a stalemate (tribal Goblins and Merfolks), but are doomed if instead of Wave I tap 4 mana for this Sorcery.
3) Mana Tithe as a potential counter backup. When you have spare mana and nothing to play, you can still counter your opponent's spells. Slight dis-synergy with Canonist, since you can't force your creatures through your opponent's countermagic.
4) The change I like the most. Same as 2), except Mana Tithe doesn't lose its power mid-late game. I like to call that list "Omnibus Rebus Responsum", since it virtually has an answer (preemptive or reactive in some cases) to everything. Any suggestions?

P.S. No, I won't play Elspeth.

[eq.firemind]

I'm very exited about new angel:


Linvala, Guardian of Silence 2WW
Legendary Creature - Angel
Flying
Activated Abilities of creatures your opponents control cannot be activated.
3/4
She disables manadudes so your Mindcensor screws their mana better, she disables Pridemage and Lavamancer and has OK stats and evasion.

[Vacrix]

Here is a more comprehensive list of what it stops:
Grim Lavamancer
Qasali Pride-mage
Mother of Runes
Weathered Wayfarer
Mangara of Corondor
Nantuko Shade
Knight of the Reliquary
Figure of Destiny
Goblin Welder
Loyal Retainers
Arcbound Ravager
Vampire Hexmage
Heritage Druid
Llanowar Elves
Priest of Titania
Imperious Perfect
Viridian Zealot
Rakdos Pit Dragon
Arc-Slogger
Wild Mongrel
Mogg Fanatic
Siege-Gang Commander
Goblin Sharpshooter
Cursecatcher
Merfolk Sovereign
Noble Hierarch


I think the most significant cards it stops are:
Lavamancer
Vampire Hexmage
Loyal Retainers
Qasali Pridemage
Knight of the Reliquary

It DOES stop a lot of stuff, but I think its better suited as a postboard card.

Also, her stats are better than okay. She is out of Bolt range, which is extremly significant.