Tabernacle and SCG

[beastman]

I just wanted to say that SCG is now buying tabernacles for $150.

[Mark Sun]

I just wanted to say that SCG is now buying tabernacles for $150.

They will probably continue to go up. There has been figures thrown around MOTL that they're in the $180+ range at the moment. I didn't see it happening, but it's the truth :tongue:

[MattH]

I see they're also sold out of Forces at $35. I bought an extra set awhile back on the hunch that it was a solid investment, and clearly it has been, but the question is: when do I unload them?

[FoolofaTook]

I see they're also sold out of Forces at $35. I bought an extra set awhile back on the hunch that it was a solid investment, and clearly it has been, but the question is: when do I unload them?

If you believe that Magic: the Gathering is a phenomenon that is likely to go away at some point then you sell them when they get to the level that makes you happy with the return.

Most people who have done this over the years with various cards have been aghast at how much money they actually gave away by selling a commodity that would rise astronomically in price.

I still kick myself for selling 2 heavily played Black Lotuses at $50 a pop in early 1995 when I was walking away from the game for the first time. I bought one almost mint one for $175 6 months later and then sold it for $250 (still almost pristine) when I finally left for good in 1996. It's still the only early card I don't own and never will unless I win one somewhere.

[Zilla]

Moved to Community.

[andrew77]

Troll and Toad bought a nm+/mint tabernacle from me for $185 10 days ago. I also sold 2 ex ones for $140 each a month and a half ago before the deck went crazy at St. Louis so it isn't surprising to see it hitting $200.

[Jaynel]

How much are Italian ones going for?

[Piceli89]

Seriously, guys? Here in Italy I can find one *in italian* for 65 euros, which are..93 dollars. And this also goes for the Goyfs. Here a set is usually valued 90 euros, i.e. 128 dollars. Add something like 20 dollars for International shipping, and you're still under the SCG monstrosities.

This time you'd better buy Oversea from us ! We need your money!

[andrew77]

I wouldn't be surprised to see people buying italian ones at 140, but I wouldn't touch one unless it is 120 or less.

[MMogg]

This is only to be expected as the format becomes more popular. But, at the same time, this lends a good argument to unban cards on the banned list because of monetary reasons, e.g. Mana Drain. :wink:

When they were around $100, I was going to try to pick them up in Italian or something but now that they've gone hog wild on prices, I'm not going to bother.

To be honest, I'm not a big fan of $100+ cards in a format. I think cards like Tarmogoyf, Sea Drake, LED, etc. are a good level of what is an "expensive" card in any given format. Triple digits only serves to alienate new players. That being said, I know Tabernacle is usually at most a 2 of and only in one competitive deck (correct me if I'm wrong), but it's a bad precedent.

[Otter]

I bet 43lands costs more than some vintage decks now (assuming 10 proxies).

[andrew77]

I bet 43lands costs more than some vintage decks now (assuming 10 proxies).

43 lands cost well over $1000 to build so yeah, it would easily cost more than 10 proxy vintage decks.

[Mark Sun]

Seriously, guys? Here in Italy I can find one *in italian* for 65 euros, which are..93 dollars. And this also goes for the Goyfs. Here a set is usually valued 90 euros, i.e. 128 dollars. Add something like 20 dollars for International shipping, and you're still under the SCG monstrosities.

This time you'd better buy Oversea from us ! We need your money!

Dude, hook me up :tongue:


@ andrew77: Did you snag that ITL Tabernacle on MOTL the other day for like $70?

[HAVE HEART]

This is not the only card that is going nuts, as MattH pointed out. It seems almost every decent Legacy staple has gone up.

The first "good" deck that I bought was Dragon Stompy because it was cheap. Now the deck is $250-$300, which is significantly more than two years ago. Obviously that price tag is still relatively cheap for a Legacy deck, but that is not the point. Tarmogoyf, for example, is now going for $60 on eBay, when one year ago today they could be bought for less than $35. Dual lands have gone up and so have Mox Diamond/Lion's Eye Diamond (these are not necessarily cards that I am comparing, just ones that have seen a significant rise in price that see a lot of play in Legacy).

I guess the point of this post is just to bring to light how much Legacy staples have risen over just a year or so. It seems the jump from 2008 to 2009 was a lot steeper than the jump from 2007 to 2008. Even though this thread is specifically about one card, I feel as if a discussion about the overall rise in price of Legacy staples would be better.

[Mark Sun]

It was stated somewhere that Vintage/Legacy staples tend to be hoarded and hung onto, where T2 (and sometimes only Extended-usable cards) staples tend to go down after they rotate out, and become worthless.

I tend to agree with this. I don't have a ton of money, so if I want to build a deck I need to trade/sell, if it were Eternal staples, I'd rather continue to buy. This leads to a lot of kicking self, like four years ago when I tried to get out of this game :smile:

[santeria]

now is a good time to sell. people are paying insane prices for things. Im sure it will drop off by early summer and then pick up again by late fall.

[Pastorofmuppets]

dude, this totally ruins my plans to build Tabernacle Red.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

What the hell? I was looking at minty Tabernacles (to collect, not play), saw a $130 average price tag and said "hell fucking no." Now SSG is out of stock selling @$225?! Maybe this whole "Legacy" thing actually is catching on... somehow I'm less remorseful of buying almost a dozen playsets of Force @$25 per card 6 months ago. Force, a card that's been stagnant for 5 years. Are these staples still on the rise, or is this the peak of their performance?

[Meister_Kai]

I see they're also sold out of Forces at $35. I bought an extra set awhile back on the hunch that it was a solid investment, and clearly it has been, but the question is: when do I unload them?

Nothing personal, and I say this with no ill intent, but I think examples like this are a good reason the prices of legacy staples are going up. Sure more people are buying staples than ever before, but I would like to know just how many people are buying cards to actually play with instead of buying to sell later. This, combined with Magic economics (people buying card X for Y price to later sell for a higher Z price and never letting go of it until at least price Z is reached, basically how p9 continues to go up in price) will one day make the price of legacy go up astronomically.

This is one reason why power creep can be a great thing, all those expensive as hell staples could one day be replaced by $20 cards. Sure some players will decry this as the death of their beloved nostalgia format, but when it actually comes to either buying a Legacy deck or buying a nice used car the average joe will demand a good opportunity to make their deck cost back through tournaments, which isn't going to happen if everybody who hasn't been playing since at least 2006 can't get a hold FOWs for $50 apiece (or whatever crazy price we all know they will eventually reach).

The inner idiot in me says fuck the reprint policy and just reprint everything from the entire p9 to the whole Legends set, but I know this would be disastrous for the Magic secondary market.

Sure I try to get good deals when I can, I'm a college student and can't afford the multitudes of x4 $20+ cards legacy so often requires. I have a good thing going where I trade cards for textbooks to people in my major to better finance myself. If I see a fetchland or a dual land in someone's $5 box no way in hell am I going to tell them otherwise, but I don't do this to horde cards to make some mass profit, but to finance either myself or decks. I trade duals for duals, cards I get on the cheap for cards in decks I need, or at least cards I know I can trade to people who have stuff I need.

Oh yeah, one more thing:

It really pisses me off when I see people who go around buying stuff like 12 Tropical Islands just to use in different decks. I mean, just because you play 3 different decks that for whatever reason call for 4 Tropical Islands do you really need 12 of them? Jesus Christ, is it that hard to just take them out of one pair of sleeves into another? Too hard to just proxy them if you are playing your decks against each other? Not only do I think this is incredibly wasteful, and a testament to just how much money people are willing to blow on certain hobbies, but also the number one thing making Legacy staples go up.[/myownpersonalopiniondon'trespondtoit]

Be a man/woman. Help poor Timmy by selling your horde of 40 City of Traitors you've been hanging on to. Flood the market. Keep legacy affordable.

[mchainmail]

Oh yeah, one more thing:

It really pisses me off when I see people who go around buying stuff like 12 Tropical Islands just to use in different decks. I mean, just because you play 3 different decks that for whatever reason call for 4 Tropical Islands do you really need 12 of them? Jesus Christ, is it that hard to just take them out of one pair of sleeves into another? Too hard to just proxy them if you are playing your decks against each other? Not only do I think this is incredibly wasteful, and a testament to just how much money people are willing to blow on certain hobbies, but also the number one thing making Legacy staples go up.[/myownpersonalopiniondon'trespondtoit]

Be a man/woman. Help poor Timmy by selling your horde of 40 City of Traitors you've been hanging on to. Flood the market. Keep legacy affordable.

Some of us, you know, have friends that borrow decks? And it's nice to have the extra staples around for that reason. I'm looking to pick up second sets of goyf, force and wasteland so I can have 5 competitive decks to loan out to people.

[Meister_Kai]

Some of us, you know, have friends that borrow decks? And it's nice to have the extra staples around for that reason. I'm looking to pick up second sets of goyf, force and wasteland so I can have 5 competitive decks to loan out to people.

I didn't really spell out the point of my rant, but its basically this: If people didn't buy more than x4 of any expensive card I believe the price of any said expensive card could perhaps be a good deal lower, low enough that you wouldn't personally have to buy more Goyfs or whatever just so your friends could play. I think it is a pretty vicious cycle, you buying more playsets of older more expensive cards drives the price up, making it so your less well off friends have less of a chance to actually own them. I'm not making fun of you or calling you a bastard through figurative speech, I think what you're doing is quite nice actually, but I think it does have a overall negative effect ala give a man a fish etc.

I think it would be awesome if the people you loaned decks to ended up winning tournaments, eventually being able to buy your loaned cards off of you. Perhaps thats just me being too profit driven though.

[MMogg]

Be a man/woman. Help poor Timmy by selling your horde of 40 City of Traitors you've been hanging on to. Flood the market. Keep legacy affordable.

Then you'd get SCG buying them all up and controlling the flow of cards in Legacy.

I kind of agree with you about no need to own multiple playsets, and I also agree that people should be encouraged to plunk money down to play, not just mooch a deck off of someone when they feel like playing. That being said, I can't tell people what to do with their own hard-earned cash. If some billionaire wants to buy up every last Tropical Island, who are we to complain?

[Meister_Kai]

Then you'd get SCG buying them all up and controlling the flow of cards in Legacy.

I kind of agree with you about no need to own multiple playsets, and I also agree that people should be encouraged to plunk money down to play, not just mooch a deck off of someone when they feel like playing. That being said, I can't tell people what to do with their own hard-earned cash. If some billionaire wants to buy up every last Tropical Island, who are we to complain?

A person, thats who I am to complain. I agree that people are free to do whatever they want with their money and I am very thankful for that, and yes, people should be able to buy 468 Tabernacles or something, but I still have the right to complain about it though.

[Atwa]

Current prices:
Troll and Toad
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (Legends) ($217.49)
The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale (Legends (Italian)) ($199.99) [out of stock]
Starcitygames
The Tabernacle at Pendrell ValeOut of Stock 224.99
MTG Fanatic
Legends - The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale $209.99


These prices are sick. I remember buying a nm english Tabernacle at $100 from starcitygames, like half a year ago.

EDIT:
I also checked magiccardmarket.eu. Here English ones start from E150.

[ryO!]

"glad" i bought a mint vo 150$ like 3 weeks ago off ebay ... at that time it seemed overpriced as hell but i guess ... not.
in france 2 sites have it
one went from 140€ to 180€.
another one 130€ but prolly out of stock, i ll check this week end though.
but i guess you still can get them for ~100/120€ "in the street".

the main thing i ve noticed this year is the rise of revised dual lands, some sites were selling them at the same prices as unlimited ones. The most idiotic thing of the year is the price of BSA, and somehow the new tarmogoyf price... i bought the last of my set 27$ off an american site and now they buy them for 38$ . . . One more funny thing, check the new entomb price ... 39$.
As it was already said in france and i guess europe, prices seems to be more stable (spoiler prices), tarmogoyf is ~25€,onslaught fetches 10/11€ for windstep&wooded, dual lands haven't risen that much etc (talking about street prices)

[Philipp2293]

If you manage to get a Goyf for 25 Euro in Austria/Germany, you're lucky.

[Cthuloo]

Wow, I got my italian one for 40 € less than a year ago, that's a huge bump in such a short time for a card that didn't receive and errata or suddendly became part of a combo.

[Nidd]

Hurgh... Sick to see a single card costing about the same as 2 decks of mine. Together.

[Ebinsugewa]

I never thought this card would be this ridiculous, but then again I never expected the Lands archetype to achieve such high-level success. Lucky that I still have one of the two I bought back in the day at what I thought was pretty exorbitant prices.

[citanul]

It's still buyable here at 119,90 euro for an English one. And I found those prices to be ridiculous.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

@Meister_Kai
It sounds a lot like you're blaming the wrong people for the prices of Legacy staples jumping so high. Existing players buying additional playsets really aren't at fault. Consider this: before GP Chicago, the market for Legacy was very small and its growth rate meagre, especially compared to Standard and Extended. The price of staples was stagnant for years; FoW for example hadn't moved in half a decade. Since the eternal formats don't rotate, people who already have playsets of duals, fetches, etc. and need them only to play have little reason to buy more. Without a market for them, older cards good only as collector's items would decline drastically in value, thus harming the secondary market because players who own a set of [FoW/LED/whatever] but don't buy or sell them aren't technically a part of said market.

Eternal formats represent a significant investment to join even without price hikes. Poor circulation is as bad for the secondary mark as is over-circulation. In one case, there's no demand. In the other case, there's too much supply. Either one lowers market value. Sure it might be nice pay $15 apiece for FoW, LED and revised duals, but it's a very unhealthy format whose staple cards can't hold their value. Why would new people pay so much for old cards if their value will evaporate over time? Might as well play Standard or Extended, where at least you'll have a sea of people to play against, massive tournament support and an exciting, constantly changing format.

Now, some people love Legacy just to play and wouldn't care too much what happened to the price of their cards, but I think most people who just spent $600 on a new CBTop deck and 4 months later saw the duals, fetches, Forces and NOs fall to $5 a pop would be extremely unhappy. They might stop playing (declining interest) or sell out (increasing supply) and leave the game, thus further reducing the price of those staples. Both scenarios are terrible for an already-small format that really wants the interest and attention it's getting now.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that existing players who buy second, third, or tenth playsets of mid to high-priced cards are pricing new players out of the market. There really just aren't enough of them to affect the prices that drastically. The little circulation they provide simply ensures that prices won't drop too low. Staples are jumping because they were artificially low before and there's a massive influx of interest due to increasing support from WotC and SCG. The price of these cards is being driven by tons of new players buying their first playsets, not a handful of old players buying an extra playset here or there. Tabernacle was artificially low before because there was little interest in Legacy and even less interest in 43 lands or Stax, two underperforming decks. Now, a handful of great results at all these new tournaments popping up is raising its price closer to its "real" value.

You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but as someone who does buy multiple playsets of staples either to hold now and sell later or just to collect them, please understand that there's another very valid point of view that's probably doing more to help preserve the value of your collection than you think.

[android]

One time about two years ago there was this auction on Ebay which was listed as Royal Assassin & Crusade. The picture showed these two Revised cards in front but behind were three rows of cards fanned out. I immediately recognized the three rows as Revised, Legends and Antiquities. The picture was kind of crappy but I did a card by card analysis of what I could make out and deducted that at least two of the blue cards were Resets. I was trying to build High Tide at the time so I set my max bid to $40. I won the auction just over $30. With shipping I think it was $34.

Anyhow, the package arrives and it's like 500 cards all it pristine unplayed condition. All cards were english.

Tabernacle
4 x Chain Lightning
a bunch of Legends
Sylvan Library
Playsets of all the Kobolds + overlord & taskmaster
3 x Reset
0 x Mana Drain :(
Karakas + all other legendary lands
a bunch of other shit

I took a risk buying the lot but it paid off.

[Skeggi]

0 x Mana Drain :(
I don't think you have the right to complain :wink:

[DownSyndromeKarl]

speaking of Ebay wins: I got the Deckmasters tin on ebay, still shrink wrapped for like $12 a couple months ago. It was listed as Dungeons and Dragons cards. Some chick found a box of her ex-BF's old stuff and sold it on ebay. Made my money back on the singles and got to keep the awesome tin as a Type 4 carrying case.

I sold my Tabernacle at profit back in November. I had played 43land for like a year and it was time to change.

[ryO!]

Anyway this incrementation is logical and kinda normal, price will always rise on middle/long time period and especially old prints, unless something drastic happen, like a ban or a better print or w/e. The only really excentric things are BSA and Tarmo prices. Lastly, to speak of "new hype spoilers" like Grindstone, entomb, NO, DreadNought, as no one had them before everyone rushed at the same time to get them, so the price uped drastically, but it will eventuelly drop a bit by the time goes by but not that much though ... as those became harder cards to find.

[UrDraco]

What would everyone say is the correct number of Tabernacles to own? Currently I have three, two english and one Italian. I am very sure I am going to sell the Italian one but does any deck out there ever need 2? I have 43 lands built and it has always been nice to have an extra on in the board but it would also be nice to have an extra 200+ bucks ya know?

[Leftconsin]

I own one and would like to have a second. For the most part, one is what most decks run. Some lists like 43Lands run a second, which is why I'd like another. The only time I've seen a third played seriously was in a few isolated Vintage sideboards as hate against Dredge, Fish, and GWbeats. So, any more than two seems like they are just 'nice things to have.' If I recall correctly the size of the Legends print run was published. Does anyone have that information or already knows how many Tabernacles got printed?

[Dan Turner]

It is not just the legacy players driving up prices, yes there has been a HUGE upswing in the popularity of Legacy since Chicago with the SCG 5K and the announcment of not 1 but 2 Legacy Grand Prixs this year.. But there are at least 3 other formats that drive the price of Legacy Staples.

1.) Vintage- Not so much of a card hog due to a smaller player base but still has some control over the market.

2.) Cube- This is kind of growing and people are always wanting that single for their cube.

3.) EDH- This format is most likely the greatest cause of the rise of duals and other "legacy" Staples other then Legacy itself.


I personally want to play against good decks in a tournament setting so yes I have multiple playsets of duals and other staples so that I can hone my skills against an optimum power base. Most 8 mans we can put together around here consist of mostly 2 players cards Mine and my friend Franks. We are pretty much the only ones who have the kind of finances that would allow for a tier 1 or even a tier 2 deck.

[Meister_Kai]

@Meister_KaiDon't make the mistake of thinking that existing players who buy second, third, or tenth playsets of mid to high-priced cards are pricing new players out of the market. There really just aren't enough of them to affect the prices that drastically. The little circulation they provide simply ensures that prices won't drop too low. Staples are jumping because they were artificially low before and there's a massive influx of interest due to increasing support from WotC and SCG. The price of these cards is being driven by tons of new players buying their first playsets, not a handful of old players buying an extra playset here or there. Tabernacle was artificially low before because there was little interest in Legacy and even less interest in 43 lands or Stax, two underperforming decks. Now, a handful of great results at all these new tournaments popping up is raising its price closer to its "real" value.

You're obviously entitled to your opinion, but as someone who does buy multiple playsets of staples either to hold now and sell later or just to collect them, please understand that there's another very valid point of view that's probably doing more to help preserve the value of your collection than you think.

I don't claim to be a economics wizard and what you said looks pretty right to me. This quoted part is the most opinionated of what you said, and what I have the most interest in. Obviously you think the practice of buying more than 4 of any playset is cool, and while I don't agree with this (so what), you are more than entitled to buying the planets supply if you wish.

I don't think you have any more proof than I do to suggest collectors do or don't drive up the price of cards. I know a guy who won a tournament off the back of a lucky Polluted Delta draw. He now collects them. He owns about 30 of them. He has a lot of money, and buys stupid shit like 30 Polluted Deltas all the time. They sit in a binder in his room collecting dust.

Now Polluted Delta isn't THAT great of an example, I know. However, things like Duals are finite. If there are some people going up buying 3 playsets here and there, I do believe that can drastically effect the price of the card. However it very well couldn't, I don't have any hard figures. I don't think you do either. However, thats ok. Its a difference of opinion mostly and I think we both can accept that.

[MattH]

Nothing personal, and I say this with no ill intent, but I think examples like this are a good reason the prices of legacy staples are going up.
These four Forces are literally the only cards I own for the purpose of reselling them, and I only did that because the store had them under-priced (about half of what they were worth at the time) and I knew I could turn them around in one day and make some money (and not even a real profit; I was so happy to get the cheap Forces that I spent about $50 more that day on other cards that I would not have bought otherwise).

As it happens, I never got around to selling them, and the price lately went up a bit, to my pleasant surprise. This will actually help pay off all the times I tried to speculate on a card and failed (Elves of Deep Shadow are being reprinted in Ravnica? Surely that means copies from The Dark will go up! http://209.85.62.26/12390/191/emo/pmo_derf.gif).

[Meister_Kai]

These four Forces are literally the only cards I own for the purpose of reselling them, and I only did that because the store had them under-priced (about half of what they were worth at the time) and I knew I could turn them around in one day and make some money (and not even a real profit; I was so happy to get the cheap Forces that I spent about $50 more that day on other cards that I would not have bought otherwise).

As it happens, I never got around to selling them, and the price lately went up a bit, to my pleasant surprise. This will actually help pay off all the times I tried to speculate on a card and failed (Elves of Deep Shadow are being reprinted in Ravnica? Surely that means copies from The Dark will go up! http://209.85.62.26/12390/191/emo/pmo_derf.gif).

There's nothing wrong with this, I do this all the time. I bought x3 Counterbalance for $1.50 total two weeks ago, no way I won't make a profit on them. I guess the main example of what I'm getting at is people who either just buy lots of cards just to horde them or people who go around buying 12 playsets of something just to horde until their "price Z" is reached. Sure you could argue that doing that is just the natural evolution of my counterbalance example, but I draw a morally considerable line at a certain point.

That isn't very logical, but this is all opinion. It doesn't have to be logical.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Meister_Kai
You're definitely right in thinking I have no statistical research to back my claim, absolutely. I think it would be impossible to have accurate data to prove my thoughts, but I wonder if we can't try to reason out some sensible conclusions even if it's just as a useless thought experiment.

We know that Legacy is growing in popularity, which we can prove with the incidence of more, bigger tournaments and record-setting turnout. We know it's growing fast because cards whose prices were stagnant for 5-6 years have jumped (even if only by $5 here or there) in the past 5-6 months. Though again I don't have hard data, we can infer (and hopefully agree) that Legacy in 2008 was less popular and had less support than in 2009. I think you're right in believing there's a fairly sizable group of people who buy multiple playsets for use in each deck; in fact, I have people in my own group who spend their (somewhat limitless) cash like that. They probably also existed before Legacy's 2009 explosion in popularity.

If we assume that these people were the primary driving force in the market for staples before, it would stand to reason that they more or less controlled the price of staples (with bounds; FoW's approximate value may never ever have dropped below $20 or climbed above $35 with just that group of people at its then-current size). Even for a fairly limited supply item (say, duals), we can probably assume there just weren't enough people buying at any one time to drive prices up above a certain point. I think it's also important to note that almost every Legacy-legal card, and every card typically considered a "staple" saw print in at least one edition that didn't have a set number of cards to be printed determined beforehand (in other words, any post-Unlimited printing). The point being, they may be old and out of print, but they're not really that difficult to come by and for almost anyone with a real income (i.e. not homeless or a student), MTG is an extremely benign hobby financially.

A truly huge explosion in popularity may well see the price of basically everything go up (obviously), but I don't think prices can get as high as you seem to fear. Worst case scenario is Legacy prices itself out of it's target market's budget, it plummets in popularity and the cards all fall back down in price. And let's be honest, not everyone spends all their extra cash on lots of 30 polluted deltas just because they like the card....:rolleyes:

[rockout]

Be a man/woman. Help poor Timmy by selling your horde of 40 City of Traitors you've been hanging on to. Flood the market. Keep legacy affordable.

Or I can continue to play any deck I want at any time and/or let my friends borrow whatever they want.

[Meister_Kai]

Meister_Kai
We know that Legacy is growing in popularity, which we can prove with the incidence of more, bigger tournaments and record-setting turnout. We know it's growing fast because cards whose prices were stagnant for 5-6 years have jumped (even if only by $5 here or there) in the past 5-6 months. Though again I don't have hard data, we can infer (and hopefully agree) that Legacy in 2008 was less popular and had less support than in 2009. I think you're right in believing there's a fairly sizable group of people who buy multiple playsets for use in each deck; in fact, I have people in my own group who spend their (somewhat limitless) cash like that. They probably also existed before Legacy's 2009 explosion in popularity.

Yeah you are definitely correct when it comes to Legacy being more popular now than it has ever been before (and more expensive as a result). This is obviously a great, great thing. You are also right when it comes to these collecting people being around long before 2008-09. No argument there.


If we assume that these people were the primary driving force in the market for staples before, it would stand to reason that they more or less controlled the price of staples (with bounds; FoW's approximate value may never ever have dropped below $20 or climbed above $35 with just that group of people at its then-current size). Even for a fairly limited supply item (say, duals), we can probably assume there just weren't enough people buying at any one time to drive prices up above a certain point. I think it's also important to note that almost every Legacy-legal card, and every card typically considered a "staple" saw print in at least one edition that didn't have a set number of cards to be printed determined beforehand (in other words, any post-Unlimited printing). The point being, they may be old and out of print, but they're not really that difficult to come by and for almost anyone with a real income (i.e. not homeless or a student), MTG is an extremely benign hobby financially.

I also think you're mostly right about this as well, mostly (haha aliens). For a long time the price of duals etc were basically fueled by their use in Extended, and once they rotated out and players dumped theirs by the ton the price went down a little bit (fear the ever present price Z). Sure some people started buying multiple playsets around this time and yeah it probably had the same effect as pissing into the ocean. However I don't think thats the case now.

Nowadays many dealers (at least ones in my area) look to one source to determine card price and availability; Starcitygames.com If Starcity is out of stock, watch out, the card is scarce. Raise the card's price. Start speculating. Trust me when I say that about 2 months or so ago when Undiscovered Paradise became a "hit" we had a group of three people going around buying all the ones they could just so they could playtest 2 different versions of Bloodghast dredge (and some other combo-type decks) without changing sleeves or some other reason.

What I'm saying is that now that Legacy is becoming more popular, and cards are becoming more and more scarce at prices most people would consider "acceptable" (USea for $70, really?) the impact of people buying copies of cards that I would consider "excessive" (basically more than x4 of any card worth more than $10) probably doesn't seem that great now, because as you said, in most cases if you do really want something, you can just go to Starcity or whatever and buy it. However, this is not how less financially able people like me get cards. I used to get cards through christmas/birthday money, what extra money I could get during the summer, or just trading cards. The main practice of getting expensive cards however were from shops that had cards like Natural Order that didn't know how expensive the card really was (found a couple the other day in a shop for $8 a piece). Places like this are beginning to either run out of "deals" like this, or getting wise. I actually had to buy 4 City of Traitors the other day for $15 a piece. I nearly died inside. Basically the impact of scalpers or speculators will become more and more apparent the more Legacy becomes popular, or as I think, the longer it exists.


A truly huge explosion in popularity may well see the price of basically everything go up (obviously), but I don't think prices can get as high as you seem to fear. Worst case scenario is Legacy prices itself out of it's target market's budget, it plummets in popularity and the cards all fall back down in price. And let's be honest, not everyone spends all their extra cash on lots of 30 polluted deltas just because they like the card....:rolleyes:

I think you are absolutely right in this as well, and it really is the nightmare scenario. It just kills me that a probable death of the format could come from an ideal thats just so inherently, well, greedy I guess. However, due to the price Z effect and the fact that cards like grindstone STILL haven't gone done much in price, I think that FOW's "plummeted" price could very well be $35 depending on how big the bubble eventually gets.

@Rockout "Or I can continue to play any deck I want at any time and/or let my friends borrow whatever they want."

Fuck yes you can, but I reserve the right to roll my eyes when I see you flash 12 City of Traitors in your binder and hear about how you bought them on the cheap when I can't find one high or low and have to buy them from an expensive site for well above their actual use-price ratio.

Its sort of like all the ban Tarmogoyf threads, it seems to me that a lot of people in those threads obviously side one way or the other on the debate and attempt to pin a bunch of logic to their obviously biased opinion. I think arguing about prices is fun, but they take that thread very seriously. Perhaps they should. Perhaps we should take this discussion more seriously. I don't want to though. At the end of the day I think owning 50 Phyrexian Dreadnoughts is stupid and if you don't think that it is thats just awesome.

[dahcmai]

Remember a few of us actually do buy several copies of cards for the sheer fact that it's an obvious good investment. Do you blame me for owning 173 copies of Force of Will? I sat on those until recently since the days of Alliances. I also was sitting on quite a few Mana Drains and Bazaar of Baghdad's.

Does this mean I changed the market when I decided to sell those Forces? I did unload them lately since I needed a house down payment. I didn't notice any difference in price when they sold from the first to the last ones. Guess it didn't make that much of a difference. Did you notice that large influx of cards back into the market? I doubt it.

I admit I did control the price of Sea Drake for a while. It was too easy to do and well, I'm not in the business to lose money. You can blame me for the rise to the extreme end of $40. I called it good and sold out when they hit that.

I own quite a few cards, but I bet if I sold out tomorrow, no one would notice the difference.



On a side note, I have noticed a trend in older cards from Saga and Tempest era getting harder and harder to get. If you want a particular card or need to finish a playset of anything from those sets, I would get them soon. I assume things like Scroll Rack and Mox Diamond will start getting silly prices. Useful cards that aren't a large deck component, but if they end up in some winning deck, they will skyrocket. Mark the words.

[MMogg]

On a side note, I have noticed a trend in older cards from Saga and Tempest era getting harder and harder to get. If you want a particular card or need to finish a playset of anything from those sets, I would get them soon. I assume things like Scroll Rack and Mox Diamond will start getting silly prices. Useful cards that aren't a large deck component, but if they end up in some winning deck, they will skyrocket. Mark the words.

Considering we already saw that with Grindstone, it's hardly a startling revelation/prophecy. :tongue:

[Aggro_zombies]

http://209.85.62.26/12390/191/emo/pmo_derf.gif).
I propose that this picture be made into an emoticon for the Source, using the code :derp:.

[Ebinsugewa]

I assume things like Scroll Rack
:eyebrow:

[ykpon]

Ebinsugewa, one day they will unban Land Tax etc.

[MattH]

I propose that this picture be made into an emoticon for the Source, using the code :derp:.

I hotlinked it from goodgamery.com, who actually drew the original picture, so I'd clear it with them first.

[Ebinsugewa]

Ebinsugewa, one day they will unban Land Tax etc.

Who the hell cares? TaxRack sucks.

[majikal]

I assume things like Scroll Rack and Mox Diamond will start getting silly prices.
Start? SCG is already nearly sold out of Mox Diamond at $50. :\

[mchainmail]

Start? SCG is already nearly sold out of Mox Diamond at $50. :\

Thank god I picked up my set right when I heard Tabernacle was going nuts...

[Raptor]

Start? SCG is already nearly sold out of Mox Diamond at $50. :\

You forgot to mention that the mox diamond is in chinese.
Otherwise, it's 30$.

[georgjorge]

Does this mean I changed the market when I decided to sell those Forces? I did unload them lately since I needed a house down payment. I didn't notice any difference in price when they sold from the first to the last ones. Guess it didn't make that much of a difference. Did you notice that large influx of cards back into the market? I doubt it.


Well it would be absurd if one individual could have a noticeable influence on the price of a card for such a widespread game, but that's like saying voters don't have any influence on the outcome of a vote because look, you voted Ralph Nader in the last election and he still didn't win. You have a certain share of influence on the price, as does everyone, and it's your own responsibility how you use it.

That doesn't mean I think it's bad to hoard cards - haven't thought enough about it, to be honest - but your logic is flawed here.

[andrew77]

Well it would be absurd if one individual could have a noticeable influence on the price of a card for such a widespread game, but that's like saying voters don't have any influence on the outcome of a vote because look, you voted Ralph Nader in the last election and he still didn't win. You have a certain share of influence on the price, as does everyone, and it's your own responsibility how you use it.

That doesn't mean I think it's bad to hoard cards - haven't thought enough about it, to be honest - but your logic is flawed here.

It really isn't that hard to influence prices of cards. Ebay plays a huge roll and considering that only a fraction of people actually use eBay, but infinitely more base their values off of ebay means that if you decided you wanted to win the next 20 tabernacles regardless of price it would be easy to push them up to $250 or $300. For whatever reason magic players also all seem to love jumping on the same bandwagon. For months nobody wanted goyfs at $30 and then within a few weeks it hit $50. Tabernacle also had seem a lot of play doing well at SCG Philly and Charlotte, but until 43 lands top 8'ed in St Louis (seriously wtf? St Louis? Since when if the Midwest the scene of competitive legacy?) the price was pretty constant at $120.

[dahcmai]

It is actually possible to influence a card's price. I know from experience of driving Sea Drake for quite a while. Yeah, I know I caused a lot of that. I noticed Faerie Stompy and hoarded up them up with my own being the only actual ones you could buy on Ebay for a while. I just outbid everyone myself and would raise the price to accommodate the price I bought them at. Eventually, it had gone up over triple in price and then I flooded it all with a bunch of 7 day ones. Probably had that going for 6 months or so. It was funny when Troll and Toad messaged me about it wondering what I was doing. I'm sure they had a laugh.

I don't think it ever came back down too much. It was easy enough to do since people didn't seem to have a lot of them trying to cash in on it. I tried to do it with Mana Drain (larger profit if it worked) and they flooded out of the woodworks when the price started rising and I couldn't keep up. I barely broke even from trying that.

[caiomarcos]

It is actually possible to influence a card's price. I know from experience of driving Sea Drake for quite a while. Yeah, I know I caused a lot of that.

I hate you!

[Philipp2293]

I hate you!

:laugh:

How many Sea Drakes did you have to buy and at what price did you start buying? Or is this secret business Information you don't want to reveal?

[caiomarcos]

:laugh:
How many Sea Drakes did you have to buy and at what price did you start buying? Or is this secret business Information you don't want to reveal?

It's not about Sea Drakes or any specific card. It's about the practice of driving the market of cards for your advantage only. Such actions are actually forbidden and punishable in other markets. So yeah, I hate him for being selfish.

If he alone could drive the price of Sea Drakes, I now believe that him with his 150+ Force of Will and a dozen other people doing the same can drive the price of Forces. That's not a good thing and that's probably the worse thing in Legacy, even worse than Tarmogoyf.

[android]

My predictions for this summer and next year:

Mint Revised Underground Seas see $100 mark

Force of Will continues to climb seeing $180/playset (probably $200)

Mox Diamond will not come down. Not going to say $50 by next year but $50 by next year.

What to buy for $0.10 - Nodes

[Meister_Kai]

It's not about Sea Drakes or any specific card. It's about the practice of driving the market of cards for your advantage only. Such actions are actually forbidden and punishable in other markets. So yeah, I hate him for being selfish.

If he alone could drive the price of Sea Drakes, I now believe that him with his 150+ Force of Will and a dozen other people doing the same can drive the price of Forces. That's not a good thing and that's probably the worse thing in Legacy, even worse than Tarmogoyf.

Fully agreed. This is the kind of thing I'm worried about. Enough people being selfish on corner cards (like Imperial Recruiter or something) driving people out of legacy because they can't afford any decks. This is a reason power creep can actually be a VERY good thing (or at least affordable). No need for a $255 Tabernacle if they eventually print something better.

Actually, if would be pretty funny if Wizards started to soley base the reprint policy on a cards price, but the only people who would really be hurt by this are people who buy hundreds of Mana Drains or something, therefore not really hurting many people at all if they reprinted them. This probably isn't the case though.

@Dahcmai
I believe the price of Sea Drake hasn't come down per my "Price Z" explanation; People bought them at whatever price and refuse to sell them for that price or much lower.

I also hadn't thought about what Andrew77 said, but it seems very probable. Most people use Ebay prices while many dealers use Starcity, meaning that a select few people with a lot of money could very well pool efforts in a business venture to squeeze as much money as possible out of this game.

On another note entirely, seriously, why even bother trying to put so much effort into making money off of a card game? Wouldn't almost anything else like stocks or real estate be more profitable?

[Philipp2293]

Fully agreed. This is the kind of thing I'm worried about. Enough people being selfish on corner cards (like Imperial Recruiter or something) driving people out of legacy because they can't afford any decks. This is a reason power creep can actually be a VERY good thing (or at least affordable). No need for a $255 Tabernacle if they eventually print something better.

Actually, if would be pretty funny if Wizards started to soley base the reprint policy on a cards price, but the only people who would really be hurt by this are people who buy hundreds of Mana Drains or something, therefore not really hurting many people at all if they reprinted them. This probably isn't the case though.

@Dahcmai
I believe the price of Sea Drake hasn't come down per my "Price Z" explanation; People bought them at whatever price and refuse to sell them for that price or much lower.

I also hadn't thought about what Andrew77 said, but it seems very probable. Most people use Ebay prices while many dealers use Starcity, meaning that a select few people with a lot of money could very well pool efforts in a business venture to squeeze as much money as possible out of this game.

On another note entirely, seriously, why even bother trying to put so much effort into making money off of a card game? Wouldn't almost anything else like stocks or real estate be more profitable?

@ Add corner cards: I guess Loyal Retainers could be the next? It's price nearly doubled here in Germany (at least for english ones)

@Stocks/Real estate:

Stocks are probably more risky (unless they reprint something better than Mana Drain if you sit on 100 of them) and Real Estate requires probably more starting capital.

[frogboy]

It's not about Sea Drakes or any specific card. It's about the practice of driving the market of cards for your advantage only. Such actions are actually forbidden and punishable in other markets. So yeah, I hate him for being selfish.

If he alone could drive the price of Sea Drakes, I now believe that him with his 150+ Force of Will and a dozen other people doing the same can drive the price of Forces. That's not a good thing and that's probably the worse thing in Legacy, even worse than Tarmogoyf.

You realize that scalping makes markets MORE efficient, right?

[Julian23]

You realize that scalping makes markets MORE efficient, right?

Don't know what your definition of "scalping" is but from my point of view it's deeply immoral and I'm glad it's forbidden by German law.

Besides that, all this talk about "markets" or even "efficent markets" makes me sick. People hold on to all these neoliberal relicts like it was some kind of Holy Grail, worshipping free markets, low taxes, yadayada. Leave your ivory tower and walk out into the world, markets are never fully efficent / perfect. There's always gonna be information shortcomming and irrational preference.

[caiomarcos]

You realize that scalping makes markets MORE efficient, right?

I'd never know. I had to look scalping up on the dictionary (I have English as a second language), and there it says:

Noun - a small profit made in quick buying and selling.

Verb - to buy and sell (stocks) so as to make small quick profits.

According to those definitions and the description of some of actions taken by some users, they don't practice scalping, but something else I don't know the name.

Second, I know no economics at all, so my bet is on you.

EDIT: I read about scalping on Wikipedia and finally found out what it really is - the activity such as in concerts and sports events.

I personally HATE scalpers, more than any other illegal activity or malpractice. Living in Brazil I know first hand how out of control and bad for everyone but for the own scalpers scalping can be, people trying to make a living out of it and to take an edge while at it can RUIN the fun for everyone trying to attend the event. Thanks for showing me that what drives the prices of some magic cards is also scalping, now I hate it even more.

It's also forbidden by Brazilian law but you know, it's Brazil.

EDIT2: Julian23 kinda beat me to it, and I agree with him 100%.

[frogboy]

everyone trying to attend those events can do so because scalpers exist. shortages exist because prices are too low to meet demand. similarly, if no Force of Wills exist at $20, it's because they are worth more than $20.

(but if scalpers didn't buy them at $15 more would exist at $20! no. they would not move at all. markets stay liquid because of speculators.)

[caiomarcos]

everyone trying to attend those events can do so because scalpers exist.

Or they could walk to the ticket booth and pay face price instead of paying whatever the guy with 500 tickets is asking for.
Scalpers are unnecessary middleman, they perform NO TASK other than driving prices up for their profit.
It's not easier to buy from them, nor safer nor faster etc, just more expensive.

You made me realize that this also happens with magic cards. :frown:

[frogboy]

Or they could walk to the ticket booth and pay face price instead of paying whatever the guy with 500 tickets is asking for.

If they could actually do that, they would. They don't because they can't because the tickets sold out because they were priced too low, and people who value the show, card, whatever at a higher price can't get any unless someone resells their ticket.

It's unbelievable how people can be mad at someone for performing them a service. If a concert is $50, and you want to go and the tickets are sold out, the guy who sells to you for $75 has done you a favor, because clearly you were unable to go before he sold you the ticket and clearly you valued going to the concert at $75 minimum.

[dahcmai]

I must have went through hundreds of those things. If it's any consolation, I forgot how many were in my personal box and only left myself with three. oops. Still playing a Rishadan Airship in that last Sea Drakes spot. lol

Why would I do that? I work for $20 an hour at a crappy company. It sucks and I know I'm never going to retire off shit like that. 401k is for chumps. I don't play the stock market because I used to and I couldn't seem to make crap off it. I think I have maybe $45k or so in it still. I beat that in cards in a single year. It's too hard to predict people in corporations. I know I'm not going to get much of a better job since I never went to college. Luckily for me, I play Magic.

I noticed a long time ago that my moxes and such were racing that stock portfolio and beating the pants off it. Then I realized all I had to do was recognize good deals in the game I loved. Easy enough. Then I figured out about pre-orders. Oh I love those. All you have to do is rack your brain trying to find that card people are going to miss. Sure I miss a few (goyf) and some I can't touch right off the bat (Mutavault), but there are some I was sitting on a ton of them when the price rose (Bitterblossom, Elspeth).

Magic oddly enough is a good game to make some money off of. I don't do the monopoly thing anymore. It's really hard to keep up with and typically it backfires anyway like it almost did with the Mana Drains. There's just too many of those cards out there and if it's something there's not much of, it's already expensive and hard to do that with. Don't worry, most people won't try it. I just found a good niche, once.


I'll stick to pre-orders and drafting the unnoticed sleepers anymore.

[Otter]

I just outbid everyone myself and would raise the price to accommodate the price I bought them at.

That's against ebay policy, asshole. If you're going to screw with the market, at least have the decency to do it within the rules.

[dahcmai]

How is it against Ebay policy to outbid everyone? I wasn't bidding on my own auctions if that's what you are thinking. I bid on ALL of the auctions and sold them in a storefront. Big difference.

[caiomarcos]

If they could actually do that, they would. They don't because they can't because the tickets sold out because they were priced too low, and people who value the show, card, whatever at a higher price can't get any unless someone resells their ticket.

It's unbelievable how people can be mad at someone for performing them a service. If a concert is $50, and you want to go and the tickets are sold out, the guy who sells to you for $75 has done you a favor, because clearly you were unable to go before he sold you the ticket and clearly you valued going to the concert at $75 minimum.

Maybe the tickets/cards are sold out/rare BECAUSE of scalpers. They buy hundreds of tickets/cards for the sole purpose of making them sold out then unload at whatever price they wish. They're not even attending/playing the event/cards.

I guess we are not agreeing on what a scalper is. I'm talking about people trying to make a living out of it, not the occasional grandpa whose grandson could't go to the game. I'm talking about people who stock up on tickets/cards creating an unrealistic low supply. I've seen this thousands of times for sports and concerts (usually it is forbidden and punished), but never realized it was done with Magic. How naive of me.

[Otter]

How is it against Ebay policy to outbid everyone? I wasn't bidding on my own auctions if that's what you are thinking. I bid on ALL of the auctions and sold them in a storefront. Big difference.

Oh, I thought you meant you put them up on ebay and then bid on your own stuff till it looked like people were paying that much for them. My mistake.

[frogboy]

Maybe the tickets/cards are sold out/rare BECAUSE of scalpers. They buy hundreds of tickets/cards for the sole purpose of making them sold out then unload at whatever price they wish. They're not even attending/playing the event/cards.

People implicitly accept this when they purchase the scalped tickets rather than getting stoned out of events they were unable to get tickets for due to shortage. If the shortage situation didn't exist, scalping would be unprofitable and wouldn't exist.

[dahcmai]

Well, it's a lot easier to do with tickets since there's a limited supply of them. It's not so easy with cards if there's several million of them. That's the problem.

[Occam]

I'm not sure if scalping is the right term to use here at all, as scalping is essentially a short-term play to arbitrage products based on their bid-ask spreads. That is why they can be taken to improve market efficiency, as they cause bid and ask prices to converge. Not sure if that applies to magic to a large extent, as dealers essentially have a stronger grip on the floor at a magic convention as compared to market makers on a trading floor, and magic dealers essentially take advantage of the information deficiency some people have, to a much larger extent than trading floor market makers would be able to. For instance, a lower bid price of say 5bps is likely to generate a very elastic fall in supply, while in magic you can find people selling Strategic Planning for $5 even after its explosion.

In my opinion, magic can never be efficient as long as short selling doesn't exist, but the existence of the latter opens a new can of worms. I don't think that people are necessarily wrong when they speculate on cards, though. Some risk and insight is required, and unlike other financial investments, a banning or restriction could seriously ruin your day.

In the end, just focus less on the monetary aspects of the game and more on the game itself. As compared to a lot of other hobbies, magic is already extremely cheap. Even if FoWs were to drop later on, the loss will not be great at all.

[MattH]

People implicitly accept this when they purchase the scalped tickets rather than getting stoned out of events they were unable to get tickets for due to shortage. If the shortage situation didn't exist, scalping would be unprofitable and wouldn't exist.

I have seen some events around town solve the problem simply, although the solution can't work with Magic cards: limit of how many tickets a person can buy, usually 2-5. You can get more if you want, but you have to go through the queue again (and run the risk of them selling out before you do, wasting your time).

This solves the problem of shortages much more neatly than scalping: there is still a market, but it is denominated in time rather than dollars. The advantage comes from the fact that everyone has the same amount of time available to them, whereas not everyone starts with an equal amount of dollars. In this way, a time-based market is, if anything, MORE efficient at correctly distributing goods than a dollar-based one, because it eliminates the inefficiency of hoarding by making it too expensive (have to pay multiple people to stand in line for you) and ensures that more tickets wind up in the hands of those that value them more. It also eliminates the inefficiency of tickets going unsold/unused because the scalpers priced them too high.

Event coordinators are very foolish to allow people to purchase unlimited tickets. If they have priced them too low, then any profit the scalper makes is profit they could have made just as easily, say by raising the price as the supply dwindles. Introducing a flexible pricing scheme keeps the profit in the hands of those who produced the underlying value - the performers and coordinators of the event.

[frogboy]

I have seen some events around town solve the problem simply, although the solution can't work with Magic cards: limit of how many tickets a person can buy, usually 2-5. You can get more if you want, but you have to go through the queue again (and run the risk of them selling out before you do, wasting your time).

This solves the problem of shortages much more neatly than scalping: there is still a market, but it is denominated in time rather than dollars. The advantage comes from the fact that everyone has the same amount of time available to them, whereas not everyone starts with an equal amount of dollars. In this way, a time-based market is, if anything, MORE efficient at correctly distributing goods than a dollar-based one, because it eliminates the inefficiency of hoarding by making it too expensive (have to pay multiple people to stand in line for you) and ensures that more tickets wind up in the hands of those that value them more. It also eliminates the inefficiency of tickets going unsold/unused because the scalpers priced them too high.

Event coordinators are very foolish to allow people to purchase unlimited tickets. If they have priced them too low, then any profit the scalper makes is profit they could have made just as easily, say by raising the price as the supply dwindles. Introducing a flexible pricing scheme keeps the profit in the hands of those who produced the underlying value - the performers and coordinators of the event.

I don't disagree with any of this, but I would like to note that you are merely transferring the cost in dollars to costs in time and that shortages still exist because the original price was set too low.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

How is it against Ebay policy to outbid everyone? I wasn't bidding on my own auctions if that's what you are thinking. I bid on ALL of the auctions and sold them in a storefront. Big difference.
That's pretty brilliant to me as an observer, though obnoxious as a consumer. Has this practice (buying on speculation, preorders, selected bidding) really been lucrative for you? I've been trying to break the system for the past 6 months to feed my collector's greed, but found that my equity portfolio just raced MTG (and once I'm more experienced with options, it would be a total wash). If you don't mind answering, is there publicly available information that lets you do this (i.e. something better than the spoilers), or are you working on a macro scale just pre-ordering cases or complete sets and fishing it all out once you get the cards?

[MattH]

I don't disagree with any of this, but I would like to note that you are merely transferring the cost in dollars to costs in time and that shortages still exist because the original price was set too low.

Except that isn't how real-world operations...uh, operate. The people running the events I was referring to (mainly concerts and music or film festivals) don't think, "My venue can hold 5000 people, but 20000 want to come, so I'll keep raising the price until only the richest 5000 fans can afford a ticket." They figure out how much they need to charge to cover operating costs plus an acceptable profit, and split that 5000 ways; and thus is the price set.

What's you're missing when you say "merely transferring costs" is that all 20,000 feel they had a fair chance at getting a ticket, and by giving them the opportunity to substitute time for money, you ensure that you get a more-devoted, more fun, and just all-around better audience (a subset of the group that can afford to pay the price, as determined above, of course). It's not "merely" anything, as right off the bat you avoid the kind of resentment you see in this thread re: Magic cards*.

The shortage doesn't exist because the price is set too low, the shortage exists because demand outstrips supply. The question is, what is the best way to allocate scarce resources? Basing this on "ability to pay more" (essentially, a bidding war) is one way to do that, yes, but it's not the only way, and not always the best way for all possible resources.


*As I said before, though, this doesn't apply to Magic cards, for a host of reasons.

[frogboy]

The shortage doesn't exist because the price is set too low, the shortage exists because demand outstrips supply.

At that price, sure.

[Julian23]

At that price, sure.

The demand exists not because of the price but because of the product. If you want to attend a concert it's not because of the cheap price but because of what you get.

[frogboy]

The demand exists not because of the price but because of the product. If you want to attend a concert it's not because of the cheap price but because of what you get.

Right. And what you get is worth...?

(hint: not the same for all people)

[Julian23]

Right. And what you get is worth...?

(hint: not the same for all people)

Agreed. That's why only people that like the music will try to attend the concert. A Dixy Chicks concert is worth nothing to me whereas some Midwest farmer girl would much rather go there I guess.

What's your point? Argueing that the best way to distribute "goods" is too set the price just as high so that the supply will be equal to the amount of people who can afford it? Like, looking at reservation-prices and rising the prices until enough people drop out?

[frogboy]

I'm arguing that shortages imply mispricing, and that a very effective way to get goods to people who value them the highest is to price them higher. You can price goods in time, money, or whatever.

Mostly I'm saying that people who speculate in markets are not evildoers.

[Julian23]

I'm arguing that shortages imply mispricing, and that a very effective way to get goods to people who value them the highest is to price them higher. You can price goods in time, money, or whatever.

Mostly I'm saying that people who speculate in markets are not evildoers.

I'm arguing that the principle of distributing goods to the people who are willing to pay the most for them leads to inbearable injustice. Like MattH said, people who run a concert look at all their costs and the time they spent on organizing it and then determine what's the appropiate price. If this means that there are gonna be more people wanting to buy tickets than there are tickets available it's fine. If you distribute them via first-come-first-serve it's fine. If it's done randoly it's fine. But once third people start sculping the tickets they deny a lot of people even the opportunity to acquire tickets because now they can't afford it.
I don't wanna say the sculptors are bad people, maybe I was a little to harsh on this before. I sometimes even buy cards because I think they will rise in price. What I want to express is that even though you are willing to pay 500 dollars for something doesn't neccessarily mean you are valuing it higher that someone who will only pay 50 dollars.

[frogboy]

If you distribute them via first-come-first-serve it's fine. If it's done randoly it's fine. But once third people start sculping the tickets they deny a lot of people even the opportunity to acquire tickets because now they can't afford it.

They also give others the opportunity to acquire tickets who were unable to take the time for waiting in line or were not drawn by random lot.


What I want to express is that even though you are willing to pay 500 dollars for something doesn't neccessarily mean you are valuing it higher that someone who will only pay 50 dollars.

Elaborate. This statement is contradictory. Obviously the person who is willing to pay a higher price places a higher value on the good.

It appears you feel wealth should not be a factor in determining who gets scarce goods. Do you think it is more fair for those who went to a random drawing on a lark to acquire goods as opposed to those who desperately wanted the goods?

[dahcmai]

That's pretty brilliant to me as an observer, though obnoxious as a consumer. Has this practice (buying on speculation, preorders, selected bidding) really been lucrative for you? I've been trying to break the system for the past 6 months to feed my collector's greed, but found that my equity portfolio just raced MTG (and once I'm more experienced with options, it would be a total wash). If you don't mind answering, is there publicly available information that lets you do this (i.e. something better than the spoilers), or are you working on a macro scale just pre-ordering cases or complete sets and fishing it all out once you get the cards?


I buy singles only. Packs are a waste of money to me. I pick singles that I figure are being missed or ones that I think will go up. It's a guessing game to be sure. I'm just right a lot. Follow Ben Bleiweis of Starcitygames, he's got a good eye for it also. It makes premium worth it for his articles.

So did you guys buy up some Dream Halls? That ones obviously going to have an impact. I have a few copies sitting aside now. 270 person tournament and wins with a virtually unknown deck. Yeah, that was worth banking on. Conflux is too much of crap outside of the deck, but Dream Halls itself was always borderline broken and it's old. How much do you think it will go up. You know it will. I'm just paying attention. Even if it goes from $5 to $10, I just doubled my money.


I don't know much about stocks, bonds and such to be honest. I guess I should learn though, I might be good at it. If anything, I play with quite a bit on this game. I went through over $175,000 worth of stuff this year. That's a lot of buying/selling.

[Atwa]

So did you guys buy up some Dream Halls? That ones obviously going to have an impact. I have a few copies sitting aside now. 270 person tournament and wins with a virtually unknown deck. Yeah, that was worth banking on. Conflux is too much of crap outside of the deck, but Dream Halls itself was always borderline broken and it's old. How much do you think it will go up. You know it will. I'm just paying attention. Even if it goes from $5 to $10, I just doubled my money.

I think Dream Halls has gone up a lot already. Same goes for Show and Tell, both cards are the top sellers at Magiccardgarden right now. Both are sold out at SCG as well. I am glad I still had a playset S&T and also have 7 Dream Halls in my binder, which have been sitting there for quite a few years, noone was interested in them all that time.

I did however buy some Confluxes. At Starcitygames they still had 12 @ $1.99. Seeing that the lowest price on them at MCG is E6.95, I can actually move them at a decent return on investment (I have done worse than a 400% profit). I will keep a playset for my own however.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

I buy singles only. Packs are a waste of money to me. I pick singles that I figure are being missed or ones that I think will go up. It's a guessing game to be sure. I'm just right a lot. Follow Ben Bleiweis of Starcitygames, he's got a good eye for it also. It makes premium worth it for his articles.
Thanks, I intend to. What kind of volume are we talking here for that kind of revenue, or does that include sales on other stuff too?

Mind you, MTG speculation is just an inefficient form of equity trading anyway, so you might be better at it than you think. It's just a matter of passion, so it's a lot easier to do it with a game you love than one you hate. The real difficulty is finding out who you'd rather get screwed by: ebay and paypal or the SEC and any bank.

[Julian23]

They also give others the opportunity to acquire tickets who were unable to take the time for waiting in line or were not drawn by random lot.



Elaborate. This statement is contradictory. Obviously the person who is willing to pay a higher price places a higher value on the good.

It appears you feel wealth should not be a factor in determining who gets scarce goods. Do you think it is more fair for those who went to a random drawing on a lark to acquire goods as opposed to those who desperately wanted the goods?

I don't say everyone should be able to acquire any kind of product. Some people argue you should only pay prices relative to your income, like a car should cost you x% of your annual income. I argue against this. There are things you can't buy if you don't have enough money. But I also argue against depriving one of or significantly lowering the opportunity to acquire things one can afford. Once scultping happens a lot of people who's income actually gives them a shot at buying e.g. the concert ticket now find them in places where they're chances are lowered because of sculpting.

"Desperatly wanting" a good doesn't mean you're gonna outbid every price. I desperatly want good x but I'm not willing to pay more than a certain price for it. Flavio Briatore on the other hand might just be "interested" in good x but will be willing to pay a much larger price than me. Here I do argue that how much you value something is always related to your income. This doesn't mean my bid of 50 dollars should be equal to Flavio's of 500 dollars, he still offers more after all. But once a price is fixed everyone who can afford it should have a shot at it. Sculping is the process of taking away chances from one group of people to the benefit of another group. This is what I call unfair.

[Kuma]

scultping... sculpting... Sculping

Dude, it's "scalping."

Sculpting is making statues, etc.

[caiomarcos]

So did you guys buy up some Dream Halls? That ones obviously going to have an impact. I have a few copies sitting aside now. 270 person tournament and wins with a virtually unknown deck. Yeah, that was worth banking on. Conflux is too much of crap outside of the deck, but Dream Halls itself was always borderline broken and it's old. How much do you think it will go up. You know it will. I'm just paying attention. Even if it goes from $5 to $10, I just doubled my money.

I couldn't because people like you bought a bunch and have them sitting aside now. Would you sell me for 6 dollars?

You would've doubled your money in the expense of someone's fun, when it should be the opposite. I can't think of any other (legal) service/market where people make money like that, by NOT being helpful or performing a service.

More and more I'm realizing how bad for the game the singles market is, with all those scalping actions.

[android]

You are all coming at this issue from different points of view. It would be wise to keep in mind that in a free market, morality means jack-shit.

I'll use this analogy; there are 10 hamburgers and 10 people. One of the people is a fat fucker who happens to be quite wealthy. He doesn't really like hamburgers but he can eat 10 of them. The other 9 people are incredibly poor but also starving. Who do you think will eat all 10 hamburgers in a free market?

It's not about who would enjoy the Magic cards the most as that is purely subjective. When profit is the driving factor, there's always some asshole that see's dollar signs. If we were all true Communists, we would try to make sure that everyone got a Sea Drake but chances are most Magic players would get 0 and the rest would only get 1.

[caiomarcos]

You are all coming at this issue from different points of view. It would be wise to keep in mind that in a free market, morality means jack-shit.

I'll use this analogy; there are 10 hamburgers and 10 people. One of the people is a fat fucker who happens to be quite wealthy. He doesn't really like hamburgers but he can eat 10 of them. The other 9 people are incredibly poor but also starving. Who do you think will eat all 10 hamburgers in a free market?

It's not about who would enjoy the Magic cards the most as that is purely subjective. When profit is the driving factor, there's always some asshole that see's dollar signs. If we were all true Communists, we would try to make sure that everyone got a Sea Drake but chances are most Magic players would get 0 and the rest would only get 1.


But what seems to happen is: there are 10 hamburgers, 10 hungry people and 8 of them are able to afford it. Then the hamburger place just holds on to the hamburgers for while, creating a false demand, rising its prices, making even the ones who could afford to eat to starve. After a while, out of the 8 people that could afford to buy one hamburger, now only 4 can. If that continues, only one person will not die of starvation, and this person will find it really boring to swing Goyfs against dead opponents.

Moral of the story: this practice of scalping will not kill the format, but might drive it to a Vintage-like state.

[paK0]

But what seems to happen is: there are 10 hamburgers, 10 hungry people and 8 of them are able to afford it. Then the hamburger place just holds on to the hamburgers for while, creating a false demand, rising its prices, making even the ones who could afford to eat to starve. After a while, out of the 8 people that could afford to buy one hamburger, now only 4 can. If that continues, only one person will not die of starvation, and this person will find it really boring to swing Goyfs against dead opponents.

Moral of the story: this practice of scalping will not kill the format, but might drive it to a Vintage-like state.


Or they just might just go to the hodogstand that sells hotdogs for a price they can pay.

Legacy is not meant to be forever, every stable of the Reserved list proves that. Every cardstore-owner (read: the person who ensures a place for you to play at) tries to make money of this game by selling singles and making a profit of it. So you can hardly blame them.

The thing is, a single person can hardly impact the market for it to matter. SCG might be able to do it, but they don't want to shy away potential players.

So the guys that could ruin the market and make sure no new players come to Legacy will not do it, since they make a living of this. They would be more happy if they could buy duals at 1$, sell them for 10$ and make more players play Legacy (potentional buyers).

I wouldn't talk about ruining the market too much, its not gonna happen anytime soon.

[MattH]

Legacy is not meant to be forever, every stable of the Reserved list proves that. Every cardstore-owner (read: the person who ensures a place for you to play at) tries to make money of this game by selling singles and making a profit of it. So you can hardly blame them.

The thing is, the store owner is providing a valuable service: use of their facilities to play in primarily, and other side benefits (such as sanctioning FNM for example). Speculators don't provide anywhere near the same benefit (if anything at all), so it's not unreasonable to begrudge only the latter's profits.


If we were all true Communists, we would try to make sure that everyone got a Sea Drake but chances are most Magic players would get 0 and the rest would only get 1.
Well, not exactly. The point of any economic system is to maximize the utility of goods, and the world's supply of Sea Drakes is maximally utilized when 25% of Legacy players have a playset, not when 100% each have a singleton (with some variation to account for EDH and cube etc.).

In this way, the criticisms of speculation and hoarding of Magic cards aren't limited to moral arguments. It is inefficient to have many playsets of cards sitting idle in binders.


They also give others the opportunity to acquire tickets who were unable to take the time for waiting in line or were not drawn by random lot.
Obviously this isn't true for random lots, everyone has an equal opportunity to purchase a ticket in such a system. The opportunity isn't 100%, but it's undeniably equal.

[Julian23]

Adding to what MattH said: I don't know if this is the case in e.g. the USA but in Germany we have laws putting an additional tax on things bought and sold again on short notice. There's a reason for such taxes: you want to limit price-driving speculation and give certain goods to people who actually need them.
Surely, Magic cards are not nearly as important to do something similar with them. What I want to point out is that there are certain goods you don't wanna people speculate on.

[dahcmai]

I keep getting the feeling that people are convinced I somehow have enough money to buy all of a certain card if I feel like it. I doubt I got them all. I only picked up 8. Score, if I did though. I'm sure there's more than one Magic site besides the one I got them from.

Look around, I found a few still going for $5 and I didn't search real hard.

[majikal]

Dream Halls eh? I'll have to sleeve it up and test it out. It doesn't seem to have cracked Top 16 in Dallas, but it looks fun as hell to play.


Conflux is too much of crap outside of the deck, but Dream Halls itself was always borderline broken and it's old. How much do you think it will go up. You know it will.

I have a feeling that Show and Tell might actually be the big winner here, as it not only sets up a fast Dream Halls win, but it can also act as an alternate win condition with Progenitus.

[caiomarcos]

I keep getting the feeling that people are convinced I somehow have enough money to buy all of a certain card if I feel like it. I doubt I got them all. I only picked up 8. Score, if I did though. I'm sure there's more than one Magic site besides the one I got them from.

Look around, I found a few still going for $5 and I didn't search real hard.

It's not you. It's not dream Halls. It's not Sea Drake. It's the practice of scalping, that like I said is not beneficial to anyone besides the scalper. I believe it really harms the format.

[Meister_Kai]

Well if anything this debate sure has taught us something about economics, that nobody can ever agree on hardly any of its fundamental principles.

Yes I think scalping sucks, but I like the practice. The whole idea of it seems pretty profitable and American and awesome. However, I don't like it when looked at using a moral standpoint. I know this is somewhat contradictory, and that it doesn't make much sense. Thats ok. Moral grey areas such as this are hard to translate to other people; if you feel that scalping is bad, don't do it. Don't aid others that do it either. However, don't try to outlaw it (unless in some cases, like absurdly large scale scalping). What right does anybody have to tell some person he/she can't make an extra buck or two here or there? I don't think that scalpers are evil people waiting behind a poll to jump out and steal your Colts season tickets. Speculating isn't evil either.

Is there published text dealing with the economy of collectibles anywhere? It seems that not many real world economic principles apply to Magic (its obviously not water, bread, anything essential) and there could be differences in such things as simple supply and demand characteristics.

You know what you can do to lessen the effect of scalping? Beat them to their game; pay close attention to spoilers and order what you want. I know this can't be done when it comes to older cards, and yes, it makes me angry too, but thats life. Not everything's fair. It shouldn't be forced to be fair.

Also, if anybody actually looks down on Dahchmi just for making your Sea Stompy deck cost about $100 more, or for holding onto so many forces (when he said so himself he bought them back when Alliances first came out) please grow up. I really disprove of his practice, but I can't blame him for doing what he does seeing as though he makes a profit.

"Don't hate the player, hate the game"

[jazzykat]

There is always a way to stop scalpers. Don't buy from them. If no one buys from them then they are stuck. The laws of economics would say that they would have to lower their prices to entice people to buy again.

What I am floored with is that even though there is something like 30% of the US unemployed (If you don't believe me, check the U6 number) the price of cardboard is skyrocketing. Are we in for a cardboard price correction?

[Dan Turner]

Great thing about cardboard and gaming in general during a recession

IT GETS MORE POPULAR.


Parents who were going to take the kids to Disney Land, "Oops sorry mommy and daddy can't take you to Disney land but half the $5k we saved up can instead be used for bills and part of the rest can go into the entertainment budget"

I know last year my cousins instead of taking their normal vacation in the Caribbean used the money to buy a wii and a bunch of games and pay down some Credit Card debt.

[evilgorrilaz]

There is always a way to stop scalpers. Don't buy from them. If no one buys from them then they are stuck. The laws of economics would say that they would have to lower their prices to entice people to buy again.

What I am floored with is that even though there is something like 30% of the US unemployed (If you don't believe me, check the U6 number) the price of cardboard is skyrocketing. Are we in for a cardboard price correction?

16%. Although 16% is still high. Except part-time workers looking for full-time jobs are also factored into that unemployment rate and they have money to spend. So its not all bad.

[MattH]

I know last year my cousins instead of taking their normal vacation in the Caribbean used the money to buy a wii and a bunch of games and pay down some Credit Card debt.

They probably should have been doing this anyway, credit card debt is really bad to have and will routinely charge usurious interest rates.

Video games are actually a really good value for the money; after the initial fixed cost of buying the system, a $50 game can give you 50+ hours of entertainment (varies on the kind of game).

And that's just new games - imagine if you never played Starcraft before - for $10 or whatever a copy costs these days, you could have untold hours of excellent play. Or you can download Shandalar and lose a month of your life for free... :D

[Rune]

Someone bought all of the Dream Halls from online stores for 2$ and now has playsets of them for sale at 60$ on eBay. Gj, way to kill the game.

[MattH]

17$ for Dream Halls, roflcopter. Massive hoarding ftw.

Where are you seeing this?

[dahcmai]

Ebay it seems. Goes to show, someone will always try.

Hunt the oddball card shop websites and when you visit stuff like Grand Prixs and such grab business cards. I tend to get a business card from all the dealers who show up so I can find cards cheaper when that type of thing happens. It's a good practice to do since this happens over and over with every new cool card combo that comes out and it's worse with older cards.

$17, I'm sure that is only the beginning. If that deck does well, it can only get worse.

[Phoenix Ignition]

$17, I'm sure that is only the beginning. If that deck does well, it can only get worse.

And it almost certainly will, based on recent tournaments. Glad I got a playset for 17 when it got unbanned.

[mchainmail]

And it almost certainly will, based on recent tournaments. Glad I got a playset for 17 when it got unbanned.

I picked up 3 English and a Korean for $22 on Saturday. It's going to be interesting to see how the meta adjusts. (Also, could you imagine a mirror match with those decks???)

[MMogg]

It's funny how as soon as a deck does well and has some key jank rares, people run out and vacuum up as many copies as possible on speculation. They may have no desire to play the deck or even test it, just to make a buck. I can't blame them, but I find it funny as hell. It's like a midnight sale or something when people get trampled on their way to save money on some shit.

I've only been back around here for about half a year and already I've seen Entomb, Dark Depths, and (to a lesser degree) Undiscovered Paradise take off in price. Now Dream Halls and Show and Tell. What's funniest to me is these are all for tier 2 decks. :laugh:

[MattH]

It's funny how as soon as a deck does well and has some key jank rares, people run out and vacuum up as many copies as possible on speculation. They may have no desire to play the deck or even test it, just to make a buck. I can't blame them, but I find it funny as hell. It's like a midnight sale or something when people get trampled on their way to save money on some shit.

I've only been back around here for about half a year and already I've seen Entomb, Dark Depths, and (to a lesser degree) Undiscovered Paradise take off in price. Now Dream Halls and Show and Tell. What's funniest to me is these are all for tier 2 decks. :laugh:

No one wants to miss out on the next Flash/Tarmogoyf/Baneslayer Angel.

[Meister_Kai]

No one wants to miss out on the next Flash/Tarmogoyf/Baneslayer Angel.

It's also much cheaper to speculate/invest in a deck like Dream Halls, hoping it becomes a tier one deck than to invest in most tier 1 decks.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

Someone bought all of the Dream Halls from online stores for 2$ and now has playsets of them for sale at 60$ on eBay. Gj, way to add value the game and especially the format.
FTFY.

Seriously. I really was trying to just observe this discussion, but now I'm too full of opinions.:rolleyes: The only thing that annoys me about this magic187 character is that he acted fast and I was flatfooted. He's obviously inexperienced at speculating from what his feedback info and the fact that he posted multiple auctions at once tell us, but if he lowers that $50 minimum bid (or maybe even if he doesn't if some people really want those cards and have money), he's going to benefit. So what? Good for him, that's free market capitalism. If you really desperately want your DH or SnT all of a sudden, let a few weeks go by. He won't sell all of them at that price and he will lower his minimum bid.

When the value of jank like SnT and Dream Halls goes up, this is good for the game and this is why: most people don't want to play this deck anyway, so it won't affect the majority of existing Legacy players. The price jump might seine out a lot of people who would just pick up the deck and then drop it in a week (i.e. when you charge more money, you force people to make more careful decisions about what they buy). That's a good thing because it will prevent massive fluxes in the metagame (good for people who are good at Legacy, bad for opportunists who hope to win a 5k on a lucky metagame call). Next tournament, we may see 3 DH players instead of 15. If the metagame keeps shifting as drastically as it did before and after Charlotte, there's no real progression, it just shakes things up. For players, it would be better to let the scene at large settle down with small shifts in between major tournaments. A less volatile metagame will encourage better people (pros) to play because then they can actually do valuable testing and interest in the format will further increase. There's no use spending tons of valuable time (and for pros, testing is worth money) testing a deck against an expected metagame if it's just going keep turning over on its head.

As for new players considering getting into Legacy, it almost definitely will do nothing to deter them away from starting DH if they want to because the deck is still fairly budget. Only 2 duals (USea, granted) and a fairly simple manabase. The deck is still cheaper than Aggro Loam or ProBant, it's just not cheaper than Merfolk now. You also can't expect that the stores would have kept their prices low either after several T8s- SCG didn't and anyone in the know won't either. Why do you care that you gave your money to a guy who bought a bunch from shops rather than the shop itself?

Conversely, what's the benefit to keeping prices artificially low? Make the card more accessible to the 1,000 or so people in the world who want it? Meh. Scalping has nothing to do with it. The intent of someone who knowingly buys something below market value (either to use or sell) is irrelevant. Somehow, I just don't see it as a zero-sum game where society is the big loser. In this case, I think time will tell that opportunists buying on the cheap to speculate makes the game better off than some people would like to believe. Online shops win because they move their stock (good). Speculators win because they profit from buying low and selling high (good). Players at large win because their FNMs won't have to suffer weeks where half the field is some new fad deck (good). People who buy the new cards and play them will have invested more money into the deck if they're buying $10 staples instead of $3, so they're going to be more serious about testing and developing the deck, making it a serious tier 2 archetype and diversifying the Legacy format at large (good). Even if they weren't bought by speculators, shops would get wise and raise prices anyway.

The only logical criticism I can pinpoint is that speculators will buy out tons of online retailers and thus gain a significant market cap. The response to that is, no single person or entity (if it's a store or group of people) can gain a strong enough market cap to artificially move the price beyond it's actual current value. Other stores will undersell them when they refill their stock and the price will stay. These cards aren't that rare. Tons of collectors have jank like this in their binders or boxes and will come out to sell them now that they're on the radar. The few auctions this guy (and others) have represent a very very miniscule fraction of the total number of DH and SnT and whatever widget card becomes popular next week. Right now there's a shortage, yes, but same with FoW and Wasteland. The shortages won't last and life will move on...

[MattH]

He won't sell all of them at that price and he will lower his minimum bid.
And if he doesn't? People HAVE been known to act irrationally, you know.



The intent of someone who knowingly buys something below market value (either to use or sell) is irrelevant.
Can you provide a justification for this assertion? It is not at all uncommon for goods to be governed under different rules based on whether the item is bought for personal use or for resale.

Not saying that Magic cards ought to be governed this way, but you've made a pretty broad assumption with no backing.

[dahcmai]

He's just doing what any smart seller would do. Post the highest price you could hope to get and see how many people bite.

If he sells even one of those auctions, he just justified doing that. He pays 12 cents otherwise. Not a bad tester.

Some people will buy thinking that the price might actually reach that point and they don't want to take chances on an auction just in case the price goes over that and then they have missed out on a good deal.

Happens a lot. I had to buy a Baneslayer at $25 (only got 3 out of a case) which was insane at the time, but I had figured on that exact fact. Turned out in that particular case I made a good decision. It's not always so, but you never know.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

And if he doesn't? People HAVE been known to act irrationally, you know.
Yes they have. A couple of those playsets might get bought up. More likely, potential buyers will check local stores and online retailers first for copies this guy didn't get to. He's even over the SCG mark of $10/card. In either event, my remark had nothing to do with the rest of my response. 3 playsets is a drop in the ocean.

Can you provide a justification for this assertion? It is not at all uncommon for goods to be governed under different rules based on whether the item is bought for personal use or for resale.

Not saying that Magic cards ought to be governed this way, but you've made a pretty broad assumption with no backing.
Can you be more specific? I don't think the bit you quoted is an expression of opinion, but a simple statement of fact.

We know that demand for DH and SnT had jumped from basically zero because of their role in DH combo. For about a week or two, demand spiked and prices stayed constant, creating a vacuum. Before the market adjusted, tons of people bought playsets for cheap. Each of the above is fact. The criticism of speculators in this thread was 1. they're harming accessibility to old "rare" cards thus creating an obstacle to entry and 2. they're causing an artificial price bubble for jank. My response was "1. is wrong and 2. would have happened anyway. Why is everyone vilifying speculators? Would online retailers have been equally vilified if speculators had missed their opportunity and these stores still had their stocks at the new price? I doubt it."

Imagine the two kinds of people buying these cards- people who bought them to hold (play/ collect) are causing prices to jump because they're all clamoring to get a playset before prices get higher. People who bought them to move (sell/ trade) aren't taking existing cards out of the market, they're just repricing them to their actual market value. There's no benefit to holding the cards for resale later- the cards' values will level and then fall once hype surrounding the deck dies, so taking cards off the market hoping they'll appreciate would be mistake because it would probably take another (different) deck that also uses them or tier 1 status for DH combo to push their prices up any further.

The only recognizable difference here is that a handful of people who bought playsets last week get to turn a buck. The buyers who want these cards for personal use either moved fast enough or they didn't. If they did, they got a playset at the old unadjusted price. If they didn't, they'd be paying inflated prices anyway, either to speculators or online retailers who have fixed their prices. I want to reinforce the point, which was ignored or missed, that this is not a zero-sum game. If speculators had missed their opportunity, stores would have raised their prices anyway. In one case, stores win (sold stock) and buyers win (have cards). In another case, stores win (sold stock), speculators win (made profit) and buyers win (have cards).

Did I answer your question? I get the feeling I may have misunderstood it since all of the above is a restatement of my original post, so let me know and I'll explain further if need be.

[Magus of the Lolis]

Happens a lot. I had to buy a Baneslayer at $25 (only got 3 out of a case) which was insane at the time, but I had figured on that exact fact. Turned out in that particular case I made a good decision. It's not always so, but you never know.

people are still paying insane prices for a baneslayer. Im guessing nobody is taking into account that its going to get douched a little when its reprinted in M11 here shortly.