[SCD] Grim Monolith

[Jon Stewart]

DCI, please read through this thread. 99% of the posters here have expressed support for unbanning Grim Monolith and the overwhelming majority believe the card would have a very positive impact on the format by increasing the curve of playable cards, and opening up the format to decks like Wildfire and Tooth and Nail. You almost never see the level of agreement among legacy players for something as you see about unbanning Grim Monolith.

I think that ban/unban discussions are a lot more organized and productive when they're limited to one specific card at a time. Otherwise, the thread will inevitably turn into a clusterfuck once people start talking about 30 different cards at once.

I feel that most of the other credible candidates for unbanning have largely been discussed to death in other threads. But I have yet to see much discussion center on the possible unbanning of Grim Monolith.

I honestly believe that Grim Monolith is a fine candidate for unbanning. And given it's recent unbanning in Vintage, unbanning it in Legacy seems like a logical next step.

The only decks that I could see it helping are Belcher and WelderMUD. Both decks that have utterly failed to make a significant impact on the format as of yet. And in both those decks, Grim Monolith would be used exactly as intended, not as a card that breaks the decks in half. And it's questionable how much help the card would provide either deck. Belcher's vulnerability centers on how easy to disrupt it's win conditions are, and Grim Monolith does little to fix this.

WelderMUD is just as well off playing Mox Diamond as it is playing Grim Monolith. And if WelderMUD wished to play both cards, then it would have to devote an absurd 36 cards to mana (24 Lands + 4 Mox Diamond + 4 Grim Monolith + 4 Metalworker) possibly alongside 3-4 Crucible, something that I don't think it would be willing to do.

At best, I see Grim Monolith functioning as a bargain alternative to Mox Diamond in WelderMUD decks for people who don't want to spend the cash to acquire Mox Diamond or who don't wish to devote 24 slots to lands just to support Mox Diamond. That seems like a legitimate use and I see no good reason why Grim Monolith continues to remain on the banned list.

What do you guys think?

[Clark Kant]

On second thought, I agree with you. Unbanning it makes sense.

None of the current top tier decks would benefit from Grim Monolith, but it just might bring a few other decks closer to viability, which in turn makes the format as a whole more diverse.

[Nidd]

Well, ever thought about applications in MU Stax builds? Featuring Tezzeret and the new Jace as winconditions?
I think that kind of archetype would benefit most from the unbanning of Monolith.

However, I don't think these decks would be too strong. Unbanning it is safe, I think. However, the DCI didn't unban it yet.
Maybe it's a good candidate for the next update...

[Otter]

Let me preface this by saying that I agree with the basic premise that Monolith is likely safe.


And given it's recent unbanning in Vintage, unbanning it in Legacy seems like a logical next step.

It's this logic that I take issue with. Though they share an almost identical cardpool, Legacy and Vintage are practically oil and water. Vintage is warped around a couple of non-creature cards and ways to abuse them, namely Mana Drain, Yawgmoth's Will, and Mishra's Workshop. Legacy is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum, though it is a bit more diverse than Vintage, it is largely decks vying for superiority on the ground in various Goyf wars and what have you. The similarities between the formats pretty much stop at the best color being blue and the ubiquity of Force of Will. I mean really, Vintage can't handle Thirst for Knowledge. Aside from Faerie Stompy and U-Stax, would any deck even consider playing TfK in Legacy? We're pretty comfortable with Brainstorm and Ponder here too, while they're wildly dangerous in Vintage, what with finding your deck's copy of Time Vault or Yawgmoth's Will meaning the end of the game and all.

Now I realize that all of these differences I've been pointing out lend themselves to saying that artifacts are a lot better in Vintage, so if Monolith hasn't shaken Vintage up, it's probably fine to unban it for legacy. I think that's probably correct and I wouldn't argue against it, but I think it's really important to specify the argument down to that level. That something is not being a problem in Vintage does not by default mean the next logical step is to unban it in Legacy.

Perhaps that's exactly what you meant, but either way I make no apologies for nitpicking it. I think it's very important that both formats get their banlists looked at from completely separate perspectives, the very few cards that do separate them make a tremendous difference.

[Clark Kant]

I took it to read that just by the fact that Wizards thought about and tested Grim Monolith enough to unban it in one format, it's logical that they're open to testing it and unbanning it in another.


Well, ever thought about applications in MU Stax builds? Featuring Tezzeret and the new Jace as winconditions?
I think that kind of archetype would benefit most from the unbanning of Monolith.

However, I don't think these decks would be too strong. Unbanning it is safe, I think. However, the DCI didn't unban it yet.
Maybe it's a good candidate for the next update...

Yeah, that could work, though I would be more interested in building something aggressive like this...

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Crystal Vein

4x Metalworker
4x Juggernaut
4x Su-Chi
4x Razormane Masticore
2x Karn, Silver Golem
2x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Sphere of Resistence
4x Trinisphere
4x Grim Monolith

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Powder Keg
SB: 3 Defense Grid

Same as you, I'm not sure if such a deck would even be viable in legacy, but it seems like it could be a lot of fun. I honestly think about the only impact unbanning Grim Monolith would have on the format would be to make a lot of casual players very happy.

[Otter]

I took it to read that just by the fact that Wizards thought about and tested Grim Monolith enough to unban it in one format, it's logical that they're open to testing it and considering it as a possible candidate for unbanning in another.

Perhaps, but given that we still don't have Land Tax, our base assumption should probably be that the DCI is downright retarded.

Anyways, on topic, to pull up a decklist from the time that Monolith was actually useful:

Kai's Wildfire
4 Covetous Dragon
1 Karn, Silver Golem
3 Masticore
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Fire Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
2 Mishra's Helix
4 Temporal Aperture
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key
4 Wildfire
2 Worn Powerstone

3 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
13 Mountain

SIDEBOARD
2 Boil
3 Earthquake
1 Mishra's Helix
1 Phyrexian Processor
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Shattering Pulse
4 Spellshock

One of the key players in this deck is Voltaic Key. Its ability to circumvent the massive untap cost is pretty important to making Monolith something more than a brown Ritual that either nets one now or three a turn later. Without Key, if whatever you do with the Monolith gets countered or killed, you'll end up wasting massive amounts of tempo if you want to use it again.

[Clark Kant]

Yes Voltaic Key does combo with Grim Monolith and Metalworker to net even more mana. But to what end exactly.

Then again, looking at the above list that I posted, there is no good reason why I can't just play that deck right now, replacing 4 Grim Monolith with 4 Mox Diamond.

Given that, I think the only way Grim Monolith would have a true impact is indeed to create a deck that consistently needs a great deal of mana, and plays Voltaic Key alongside Metalworker and possibly Goblin Welder.

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
4x Crystal Vein

4x Mox Diamond
4x Voltaic Key
4x Grim Monolith
4x Metalworker

4x Razormane Masticore
4x Platinum Angel
4x Sundering Titan

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere

Possibly Crucible of Worlds, Staff of Domination, and Sphere of Resistence have a role in such a deck as well. I can't fathom any other legacy strategies that have any use for such obscene amounts of colorless mana. Most existing strategies I can think of that use these cards only need a slight amount of additional colorless mana, which is precisely what Mox Diamond, Grim Monolith and Metalworker offer with or without Voltaic Key.

But even ignoring the horrid synergy between Voltaic Key and Chalice of the Void, this above build seems far less consistent than the alternatives. The deck absolutely needs you to draw and successfully resolve either a Voltaic Key or a Metalworker to even be playable. And even then, it remains far slower than every other combo deck in the format.

[BreathWeapon]

Not only do I like Grim Monolith, but I think Grim Monolith is good for the format. It's not just an accelerant, but a mana battery, so the format could try and evaluate big mana decks like Wildfire or Tooth and Nail. Anything that pushes the format's mana curve above 3 is probably a worthy unbanning, if for no other reason just to diversify the format a little.

[Illissius]

Yeah, Monolith isn't just a colorless Desperate Ritual. It can be -2 one turn and +3 the next. So if Welder MUD or whatever has expensive cards it might well prefer it to Diamonds. And yes, it would be very nice to get some big mana decks back in the format -- Wildfire, Tooth, Death Cloud, or something.

Personally, I'm hoping it could resurrect Accelerated Blue. So I fully approve.

[Gheizen64]

Not only do I like Grim Monolith, but I think Grim Monolith is good for the format. It's not just an accelerant, but a mana battery, so the format could try and evaluate big mana decks like Wildfire or Tooth and Nail. Anything that pushes the format's mana curve above 3 is probably a worthy unbanning, if for no other reason just to diversify the format a little.

This. As a ritual, monolith is hardly a threat. Desperate ritual, rite of flame, etc are all better as rituals. Monolith would be used just as a battery, and i could play my old Wildfire deck ftw.

[Jon Stewart]

So far, everyone agrees! That just seems so strange, in a banned list discussion thread of all things. Is there any way we could pass this message on to Wizards?


Not only do I like Grim Monolith, but I think Grim Monolith is good for the format. It's not just an accelerant, but a mana battery, so the format could try and evaluate big mana decks like Wildfire or Tooth and Nail. Anything that pushes the format's mana curve above 3 is probably a worthy unbanning, if for no other reason just to diversify the format a little.

I forgot about Wildfire, Tooth and Nail, Death Cloud, Covetous Dragon and Accelerated Blue. The thought of those decks possibly seeing play in legacy someday (even as tier 2-3 decks) makes me giddy for some reason. Next thing you know, we'll be talking about Sneak Attack and Defense of the Heart.

[Pltnmngl]

I'm pretty sure the only think holding it back is that it's on the reserved list.

For a moment, I thought it would give combo more nuts opportunities, but color-less mana doesn't sound too bad.

[Julian23]

What it would really do is promote a deck that was back then called "Accelerated Blue", in case you remember.

[Jon Stewart]

I'm pretty sure the only think holding it back is that it's on the reserved list.

What does that have to do with anything. Being on the reserved list has no bearing of whether a card is banned. Tons of legacy staples are on the reserved list. Everything from Force of Will to Phyrexian Negator is on the reserved list.

Hell, Berserk is on the reserved list and they managed to find a round about loop hole to reprint that.

The reserved list is the most arcane, pointless and nonsensical list in MTG's history, and the sooner the DCI does away with it, the better. But that's for another topic.

[overseer1234]

I would love to see it come of the list, we'd be able to give MUD a decent chance in legacy (not that I'm unhappy with the metalworker we recently got to play with), or even make my wildfire build at least half decent.


(Also,I just want to keep the list as short as possible, that's why I also think hermit, dragon and tax should come off, (the first two especially if the format becomes boring again, so they can shake things up a bit...) but that's another kind of discussion)

[Jon Stewart]

I would love to see Acclerated Blue make a comeback. It's such a cool concept.

But I see basically very little chance of that happening. All the Accelerated Blue staples (Power Sink, Rewind, Wash Out, Opportunity) for the most part suck these days and are so easy to counter and those cards haven't really been improved upon. I suppose Treachery isn't horrible but even that is pretty meh when compared to stuff like Sower of Temptation.


I would love to see it come of the list, we'd be able to give MUD a decent chance in legacy (not that I'm unhappy with the metalworker we recently got to play with), or even make my wildfire build at least half decent.


(Also,I just want to keep the list as short as possible...)

Same here. And it's not as if there is any chance whatsoever of WelderMUD dominating legacy, considering the deck has absolutely no way to counter spells, no protection and outright dies to everything from Serenity to Aura of Silence.

[Illissius]

But I see basically very little chance of that happening. All the Accelerated Blue staples (Power Sink, Rewind, Wash Out, Opportunity) for the most part suck these days and are so easy to counter and those cards haven't really been improved upon. I suppose Treachery isn't horrible but even that is pretty meh when compared to stuff like Sower of Temptation.

Vedalken Shackles, Fact or Fiction, Chalice of the Void, Sphinx of Jwar Isle

[Jon Stewart]

Vedalken Shackles, Fact or Fiction, Chalice of the Void, Sphinx of Jwar Isle

Good point. Though I'm not sure about Shackles. Acclerated Blue seems like it would really want to play Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors, which don't exactly have great synergy with Shackles considering that you need to get 5 Islands onto the board to be able to deal with legacy staples like Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.

Chalice of the Void seems like it would have horrible synergy with a lot of important blue staples like Brainstorm, Ponder, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare not to mention all the 2cc stuff. But it's probably worth running anyways. It would be more helpful if you could post even a tier 3 list that demonstrates a modern legacy take on the archeatype.

It definately seems possible to put together an Accelerated Blue deck, but I have serious doubts that the deck would perform adequately (which I guess would put it right along side strategies like Wild Fire, Tooth and Nail, and Death Cloud.)

[deadlock]

I a completly agree with the unbanning of Monolith, especially what Breath Weapon said. Also it would be another take on the Ban Tarmo discussion, to introduce (a) card(s), from which the current Goyf decks do not profit.

The biggest question for me is, would Grim power something like (examples!)

8 Tomb / City
4 Grim
4 Trini
4 Chalice
+x

or more something like
x Voltaic Key
x Senseis(?) - good with key
and other 1 mana spells, e.g. Welder.

Where as the first template is more explosive, the second one is more controlish with long term mana advantage. The problem would be what disruption to run besides FoW (given a blue shell).
I would love accelerated blue..

[Illissius]

Good point. Though I'm not sure about Shackles. Acclerated Blue seems like it would really want to play Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors, which don't exactly have great synergy with Shackles considering that you need to get 5 Islands onto the board to be able to deal with legacy staples like Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.

Maybe Tomb, but not so much City. I've done some experimenting with Accelerated Blue builds before and City can be very annoying when you want to ramp up mana for something. And both of them can be very annoying when your opponent plays Wastelands. A modern build would run 4 Grims, maybe some Tombs, and then plain old Islands.



Chalice of the Void seems like it would have horrible synergy with a lot of important blue staples like Brainstorm, Ponder, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare not to mention all the 2cc stuff. But it's probably worth running anyways. It would be more helpful if you could post even a tier 3 list that demonstrates a modern legacy take on the archeatype.

See the link in my sig. Note that I haven't played so much as a game with that list so it's as likely as not to be horrible; at this point it's just an idea. (All of the threes in particular are mainly the product of indecision.)

[Infinitium]

It would probably make MUDStax more viable if only because of the increased probability of a turn 1 Trinisphere/Metalworker. The dissynergy with Chalice is neglible since the deck generally curves out at 4 anyway. Don't see it belonging anywhere else (MUD Stompy builds already run 32+ mana sources including Mox and Metalworker and Belcher needs its colored mana sources for its alternate win conditions and search).

[andrew77]

The only reason I could sea for wizards not wanting to unban monolith is that in a dedicated stax deck an opener with monolith&trinisphere will mean turn 1 sphere most of the time. I don't really mind this being in the format as I don't think it is all that broken, but wizards doesn't like "unfun" things like this.

[Illissius]

Vintage obviously springs to mind with regards to turn one Trinisphere, and I don't think it's the same. There's two main differences: in Vintage, you only had to tap a Workshop or maybe Moxen or something to cast it; in Legacy, you have to use at least a Mox Diamond or a Monolith, which means you are essentially expending a card either way to do it. Second, in Vintage most decks had their manabases in large part themselves composed of spells -- various artifact mana -- which made Trinisphere doubly annoying. Legacy doesn't have that problem.

[Gheizen64]

I don't think the threat of a City->Monolith->Trinisphere is even a threat. Vintage untap their mox and their Workshop and cast things next turn, you'll have just a tapped monolith (->worse dark ritual) and a city. Granted, IF you have a voltaic key the next turn you can go key-> untap ... and IF and IF and IF.

Imho, the best use for monoliths would be to cast baneslayer angels. Too bad most of the others white bombs are WW2 (cataclysm, wrath, etc) and that Wildfire suck in current meta. I played the deck a while ago, with monolith, stax, dinamos, keys, covetous dragons, wildfires, crater hellions... was fun :laugh:

EDIT: maybe a UW control that win with Baneslayers, cast huge draw spells and laugh off at counterbalance? Like:

4 Baneslayer angel
3 Sphinx of Jwar Isle

4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 FoW
4 StP
4 FoF
4 Mana Leak
3 Treatchery

4 Monolith
4 Tomb
4 Flooded Strands
1 Polluted delta
1 Windswept Heath
2 Mishra's factory
4 Tundras
4 Island
2 Plains

But probably straight blue is better.

[Rico Suave]

I honestly believe that Grim Monolith is a fine candidate for unbanning. And given it's recent unbanning in Vintage, unbanning it in Legacy seems like a logical next step.

It was unbanned in Vintage largely because there just isn't any room for Grim Monolith in decks. The other acceleration is too powerful to ignore, and there is only so much room for non-land mana.

[Doks]

I second that unbanning Grim Monolith seems relatively save.
It really gives a tempo boost but only in colorless mana (so you probably have to use mono-colored or artifact strategies to support the big spells that usually need a ton of colorless [and at least double colored mana]) and still is not an uber play on T2 compared to your opp who might then just drop Goyf and start beating you down.


What it would really do is promote a deck that was back then called "Accelerated Blue", in case you remember.


I would love to see Acclerated Blue make a comeback. It's such a cool concept.

But I see basically very little chance of that happening. All the Accelerated Blue staples (Power Sink, Rewind, Wash Out, Opportunity) for the most part suck these days and are so easy to counter and those cards haven't really been improved upon. I suppose Treachery isn't horrible but even that is pretty meh when compared to stuff like Sower of Temptation.


At least I would give it a try. A little tweak here and there and T3 protected Morphlings will be as deadly again as in the past. Sounds funny.

[eq.firemind]

Esperzoa + Master Transmuter + Grim Monolith tastes sweet...

[overseer1234]

Esperzoa + Master Transmuter + Grim Monolith tastes sweet...

Ohw I would LOVE to give that a try, playing silly stuff like thirst for knowledge (and they say that vintage is broken, but we can play this baby 4 times)for draw and stuff :D, maybe master of etherium could become a tier 1 creature :D

[eq.firemind]

Ohw I would LOVE to give that a try, playing silly stuff like thirst for knowledge (and they say that vintage is broken, but we can play this baby 4 times)for draw and stuff :D, maybe master of etherium could become a tier 1 creature :D
...And Sigil of Distinction becomes a tier 1 equipment :smile:

[Nightmare]

The difference between turn 1 Trinisphere in Vintage, and turn 1 Trinisphere in Legacy, is that this format plays lands.

In vintage, a large portion of the manabase of most decks includes the SoLoMoxen, Crypt, and often other artifact mana sources. This makes their mana "spells" and shuts it off with 3sphere. Legacy decks simply make far more actual land drops than vintage decks do.

[jazzykat]

The difference between turn 1 Trinisphere in Vintage, and turn 1 Trinisphere in Legacy, is that this format plays lands.

In vintage, a large portion of the manabase of most decks includes the SoLoMoxen, Crypt, and often other artifact mana sources. This makes their mana "spells" and shuts it off with 3sphere. Legacy decks simply make far more actual land drops than vintage decks do.

This.

I've played a lot of stax a while back and I'm often left saying to myself this would be a really good deck if I could get 3sphere or metalworker out more consistently on turn 1. It actually speeds up a MUD deck enough to warrant the danger of inconsistency

Additionally, I believe the best way to fight against Tarmogoyf is with other viable decks that don't need to use him.

[overseer1234]

Additionally, I believe the best way to fight against Tarmogoyf is with other viable decks that don't need to use him.

The problem with this is that the stupid goyf give's these so called "other" decks a pretty hard time...

That's why I would like some new toys to fight it off.

[eq.firemind]

Additionally, I believe the best way to fight against Tarmogoyf is with other viable decks that don't need to use him.

The problem with this is that the stupid goyf give's these so called "other" decks a pretty hard time...
People, please don't fuck up another thread. I believe you can!

[overseer1234]

People, please don't fuck up another thread. I believe you can!

That's why I want that new toy.

[andrew77]

This.

I've played a lot of stax a while back and I'm often left saying to myself this would be a really good deck if I could get 3sphere or metalworker out more consistently on turn 1. It actually speeds up a MUD deck enough to warrant the danger of inconsistency

Additionally, I believe the best way to fight against Tarmogoyf is with other viable decks that don't need to use him.

I agree with this completely. If wizards wants to leave tarmogoyf warper of formats unbanned I could easily see half of the legacy banned list becoming unbanned. Give me desire please.

I do think monolith would be fine though. It will not be broken, but it shouldn't be underestimated either. If it is unbanned stax will be tier 1.

[overseer1234]

-SNIP-
I do think monolith would be fine though. It will not be broken, but it shouldn't be underestimated either. If it is unbanned stax will be tier 1.

Don't think you should worry to much about that, all tomb/city/chalice decks have real difficulty's with midrange decks... so I guess they'll keep it in check, and it's also no bad thing if those decks become more viable.

[Jon Stewart]

Indeed. Artifact based decks are absurdly easy to hate out in legacy. Serenity kicks them in the nuts for 2 mana total. Tons of cards (Aura of Silence, Trygon Predator, that 1cc red instant that destroys x number of artifacts if you play x mana, the 2cc blue instant that bounces all artifacts back to owners hands and tons of other cards) stop these decks cold. Worst of all, artifact decks have neither discard nor countermagic to stop these hate spells from resolving.

There is a reason why affinitynever made much if any impact on legacy even though goldfish wise, it's actually faster than goblins. Artifact based decks are just too damn easy to hate out.

So might this deck become viable, sure. Will it ever dominate or adversely skew the format, hell no.

Also, almost every function that people plan to use grim monolith for, mox diamond already does. It just forces you to play too many lands (causing you to spend 36/60 slots total on just mana including crucibles) and costs too much money is the main reason people seem to want grim monolith instead.

[Illissius]

You gave yourself some wiggle room with "almost", but I still think that's wrong. Grim Monolith gives you a one-time 6 mana on turn 3. Mox Diamond you two mana on turn one and +1 henceforth until you miss a land drop. There are wildly different use cases for those functions.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I would love the archetypes this card can bring back into Tier 2 levels. I don't think there's any way to break it, but it definitely could bring some decks that aren't aggro-control back.

And incredibly fun to toy around with as a designer. I approve of unbanning, if it happens.

[Jon Stewart]

I still would like to see this card unbanned even with Lodestone Golem to help MUD and Affinity decks a bit.

There is nothing at all broken about what Grim Monolith does, so I see no good reason to keep it banned.

[Hunter245]

I'd like to agree with that although Grim Monolith would boost affinity's power level and potentially stax's also, even if this unbanning would cause these decks to rise to tier 1 could they handle the hate?

I mean think about Dredge. A very powerful deck but simply put if you run into the one person in a tournament that hasn't moved tormod's crypts out of their board since creating the deck, Your fighting a uphill battle. (Please keep in mind I understand that Dredge takes more hate to totally defeat the deck, but it's a example to point out that the hate exists to keep decks dependant on artifacts in check)

[Gheizen64]

I still would like to see this card unbanned even with Lodestone Golem to help MUD and Affinity decks a bit.

There is nothing at all broken about what Grim Monolith does, so I see no good reason to keep it banned.

Not that lodestone that's good in legacy. You know, in a format with path, sword and lightning bolt a 5/3 for 4 is hardly an investment. At most he'll trade with goyf :rolleyes:

[Jon Stewart]

Is March 1st when they make unbanning decisions. If so, I really hope to see Grim Monolith unbanned, and it seems most people here also want to see it unbanned.

That would really show that the dci is paying attention to the format. :)

[Sims]

Is March 1st when they make unbanning decisions. If so, I really hope to see Grim Monolith unbanned, and it seems most people here also want to see it unbanned.

That would really show that the dci is paying attention to the format. :)

While I've got my playset ready to sleeve into Wildfire for epic lulz, or Mono-U Tezz, I've got to admit if they unban it I don't think it'll be on March 1st. I doubt they're going to make another sweep of unbanning right after a major GP.. although, on the other hand, it would make sense to do it then that way they have people with time to test it to make sure it's not Flash 2.0 (btw, it's not) before Columbus.

[Jon Stewart]

although, on the other hand, it would make sense to do it then that way they have people with time to test it to make sure it's not Flash 2.0 (btw, it's not) before Columbus.

Yeah, I actually think now is the best time to unban some cards that are safe, precisely for this reason. Plus it would inject some excitement into the format. Who wouldn't like to see a GP with atleast a couple of Wildfire decks?

[BreathWeapon]

Considering the Carpet of Flowers errata, I'd say Grim Monolith isn't too far off the mark at this point.

[undone]

Considering the Carpet of Flowers errata, I'd say Grim Monolith isn't too far off the mark at this point.

This WILL be altered I dont think this is even close to the mark of what the card was intended to do. (twice a turn is definately not what it was meant to do) however that being said I think grim would be perfectly ok if we didnt have metal worker to run with. The card is just something the format has none of at the moment. A permenant accel card with NO DRAWBACK the only ones we have see heavy play and are 2 for 1s. Grim would see massive play and drastically upset the balance of power infavor of tezz decks. Can you immagian the following sequence of plays becoming a ligitiment legacy play?

Land do stuff go
Land play grim with 8 counters in my deck (dazes and forces maby more)
untap play a land tezz -> untap grim + land, cast FOF/just hold mana for card draw (mindspring?)

The card also comes at an bad time (Golem) at least to me. We dont know how strong golem will be so I would say if you ARE going to unban it wait at least one round before putting metalworker + grim + lodestone all in the format.

[Some Guy]

This WILL be altered I dont think this is even close to the mark of what the card was intended to do. (twice a turn is definately not what it was meant to do).

At the beginning of each of your main phases, if you haven't added mana to your mana pool with Carpet of Flowers this turn, you may add up to X mana of any one color to your mana pool, where X is the number of Islands target opponent controls.

[Jak]

At the beginning of each of your main phases, if you haven't added mana to your mana pool with Carpet of Flowers this turn, you may add up to X mana of any one color to your mana pool, where X is the number of Islands target opponent controls.

Bolded additional things.

[Jon Stewart]

Land do stuff go
Land play grim with 8 counters in my deck (dazes and forces maby more)
untap play a land tezz -> untap grim + land, cast FOF/just hold mana for card draw (mindspring?)


Considering that's a two card combo, I don't see how that play even remotely qualifies as broken at all. I can name a hundred or so two card combos that are ar superior. And it's not as if Grim Monolith is hard to destroy.

And overall, Grim Monolith only nets one additional mana and just once (same as lotus petal). Yes, you can pay the two mana early on to save it up for later to have a lot of mana for one turn to run higer cc spells than legacy is typically used to. But that's a good thing. Legacy needs more cards like Tooth and Nail and Wild Fire and Tezz seeing play.

Even with Golem and Metalworker, Welder MUD is not even remotely viable as a deck yet. The OP explains why if such a deck was viable, it would already be viable with Mox Diamond instead of Grim Monolith. That said, Grim Monolith might push Welder MUD into tier two. Even if it somehow pushes the deck into tier one, sideboard cards like Energy Flux and Serenity will ensure that such a deck won't even stay tier one for long.

[majikal]

Considering that's a two card combo, I don't see how that play even remotely qualifies as broken at all. I can name a hundred or so two card combos that are ar superior. And it's not as if Grim Monolith is hard to destroy.

And overall, Grim Monolith only nets one additional mana and just once (same as lotus petal). Yes, you can pay the two mana early on to save it up for later to have a lot of mana for one turn to run higer cc spells than legacy is typically used to. But that's a good thing. Legacy needs more cards like Tooth and Nail and Wild Fire and Tezz seeing play.

Even with Golem and Metalworker, Welder MUD is not even remotely viable as a deck yet. The OP explains why if such a deck was viable, it would already be viable with Mox Diamond instead of Grim Monolith. That said, Grim Monolith might push Welder MUD into tier two. Even if it somehow pushes the deck into tier one, sideboard cards like Energy Flux and Serenity will ensure that such a deck won't even stay tier one for long.
Monolith probably stays banned because of its two-card combo with Power Artifact. Not that it's particularly scary, but it's cheap, and WotC seems to frown on cheap, two-card combos.

[ClearSkies]

Monolith probably stays banned because of its two-card combo with Power Artifact. Not that it's particularly scary, but it's cheap, and WotC seems to frown on cheap, two-card combos.


But there are other two-card combos like Grindstone and Painter that can just win.

[Clark Kant]

Yeah the power artifact combo is pretty crappy considering how much better the other two card combos (Painter Stone) in the format are, and how useless Power Artifact as a card is by itself.

Actually, the power artifact combo isn't even a two card combo. There is no use in being able to generate infinite colorless mana without someway to use it to win the game.

So it's actually a 3 card combo, which makes it completely unplayable in legacy. If that's the reason that this card stays banned, that's pretty shitty reasoning.

[menace13]

Yeah the power artifact combo is pretty crappy considering how much better the other two card combos (Painter Stone) in the format are, and how useless Power Artifact as a card is by itself.

Actually, the power artifact combo isn't even a two card combo. There is no use in being able to generate infinite colorless mana without someway to use it to win the game.

So it's actually a 3 card combo, which makes it completely unplayable in legacy. If that's the reason that this card stays banned, that's pretty shitty reasoning.

Another unplayable card that has no home:frown:
I don't see this warping anything, what decks would use it? staxx?

[caiomarcos]

Another unplayable card that has no home:frown:
I don't see this warping anything, what decks would use it? staxx?

Dream Halls?

[rufus]

The infinite mana thing isn't quite that bad since the monoliths are technically accelerants. Technically, you could also play Rings of Brighthearth, but that might be worse than the Monoliths.