[WWK speculation]13/13 one-drop?

[Darkenslight]

According to MaRo's Twitter account, there's going to be a one-drop bigger than Phyrexian Dreadnought. In the Worldwake Orb of Insight, there's one hit for 13/13.

What would you expect this to look like in game terms, and how powerful would it be?

Here's what I would expect:

CARDNAME (1)
Artifact Creature - Golem

When CARDNAME comes into play, Sacrifice all lands you control and discard two cards from your hand.
Trample
13/13

[MMogg]

According to MaRo's Twitter account, there's going to be a one-drop bigger than Phyrexian Dreadnought. In the Worldwake Orb of Insight, there's one hit for 13/13.

What would you expect this to look like in game terms, and how powerful would it be?

Here's what I would expect:

CARDNAME (1)
Artifact Creature - Golem

When CARDNAME comes into play, Sacrifice all lands you control and discard two cards from your hand.
Trample
13/13

What exactly did the Twitter message say? (Sorry, Twitter is blocked in China so I can't check.)

Edit: that would be sweet that instead of reprinting Dreadnought, they powercrept his ass. Such as not an artifact. Dreadstill could come back!

[bokepa]

Here's what I would expect:

CARDNAME (1)
Artifact Creature - Golem

When CARDNAME comes into play, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice creatures with a total toughness of 13.
Trample
13/13

Gogo Kraken deck!

[luma]

Here are the Twitter messages by MaRo:


Phyrexian Dreadnaught is the one-drop creature with the largest power/toughness (12/12). Until #Worldwake releases that is.


The power and toughness written on the bottom right corner of the card in question are each larger than 12.

[Doks]

IMO this would be way too powerful if this was true.
The suggestion you made sure is kinda weak in the lategame (then this card forces you to go all in), but it also forces the opponent to have either Fow or any other CC1 Removal when played on T1. And if it eats StoP the 13 life will make up for the loss of tempo due to sacrificing a land.

But then Repeal would be a lot of fun again after taking 13 damage when on the draw XP.

[pi4meterftw]

IMO this would be way too powerful if this was true.
The suggestion you made sure is kinda weak in the lategame (then this card forces you to go all in), but it also forces the opponent to have either Fow or any other CC1 Removal when played on T1. And if it eats StoP the 13 life will make up for the loss of tempo due to sacrificing a land.

But then Repeal would be a lot of fun again after taking 13 damage when on the draw XP.

Since when does gaining 13 life make up for anything? Especially not a card in hand, and most definitely not 2 cards in hand and your land.

[MMogg]

Here are the Twitter messages by MaRo:

Thanks for finding that quote.

Wow. Can you spell M-Y-T-H-I-C?! Hopefully this isn't an "as an additional cost" type of spell. I really hope it's a non-artifact version of Dreadnought, with some kind of triggered ability that can be Stifled. :smile:

[Skeggi]

It probably won't have a CIPT like Phyrexian Dreadnought but a different drawback, something you can't overcome with Stifle or Trickbind.

[MMogg]

It probably won't have a CIPT like Phyrexian Dreadnought but a different drawback, something you can't overcome with Stifle or Trickbind.

Party pooper. :tongue: At least I could dream.

Yeah, considering the land theme, maybe he'll get a -X/-X for each land you control or something, who knows. Usually the cards they tease suck balls. :rolleyes: Still fun to speculate/dream, though.

[JeroenC]

CARDNAME (1)
Artifact Creature - Golem

When CARDNAME comes into play, Sacrifice all lands you control and discard two cards from your hand.
Trample
13/13

OP much? This is a good turn1 drop in pretty much any format.

Probably something that comes into play with X counters on it, Landfall removes a counter and only without counters can it do anything.

[eq.firemind]

The easiest thing:

May-Be-Ubiqutis (1 mana)

Creature - Ubiqutis

May-Be-Ubiqutis enters the battlefield with 12 -1/-1 counters on it.
Landfall - remove a -1/-1 counter from May-Be-Ubiqutis.

13/13

Or something with Multikicker:

May-Be-Ubiqutis (1 mana)

Creature - Ubiqutis

Multikicker (1 mana)
May-Be-Ubiqutis enters the battlefield with 12 -1/-1 counters on it minus the number of times it was kicked.

14/13

[Maveric78f]

All your propositions look far too strong.

[Benie Bederios]

Mwah I think it will be vanilla artifact creature called "The Antigoyf".

The multikicker would be an option too. But that would still mean a nasty T2 combo with Hexmage...

Or it's just one big show and it turns out to be something silly as can't attack unless the combined power of creature an opponent control is 12 or higher. Or an opponent may search his library for a number of cards/creatures and put them into hand/play( this could be a nice anti-control/combo tech though).

- Benie

[Illissius]

Ohmygodit'salmostalion

[mchainmail]

The easiest thing:


Or something with Multikicker:

It'd probably get templated as "this comes into play with 12 -1/-1 counters" and Multikicker 1 "put a +1/+1 counter on this for each time the multikicker was played."



I'd bet an "as this comes into play" type of ability. Although a 13/13 for one with something like "when you cast this, discard your hand" (so Vial would be nuts with it)

[Maveric78f]

Another speculation that sounds balanced to me.

Dreader Nought %1
Dreader Nought comes into play with 12 -1/-1 counters
Sacrifice a creature: remove X -1/-1 counters from Dreader Nought where X is the power of the sacrificed creature.
13/13

[Skeggi]

Funny how these rumor threads turn into card creation threads.

[TorpidNinja]

It's probably going to be one of the -1/-1 counter permutations that have already been posted. Seems they're trying to force Vampire Hexmage as a win condition in Standard too?

[yankeedave]

Another speculation that sounds balanced to me.

Dreader Nought %1
Dreader Nought comes into play with 12 -1/-1 counters
Sacrifice a creature: remove X -1/-1 counters from Dreader Nought where X is the power of the sacrificed creature.
13/13

I could see them doing this one with Shroud, just so you CAN'T Hexmage it into play!

Dave

[Tacosnape]

Intriguing but improbable would be:

Lazy Krakenought
:1:
Artifact Creature - Kraken Dreadnought
Lazy Krakenought can't attack or block.
13/13

Even more amusing would be if it had the ability "Lazy Krakenought can't be sacrificed." Then finding a use for it's a real challenge.

[yankeedave]

I would love to see a creature that didn't actually do anything! What could we do with it to make it combo tastic?

[sco0ter]

Then finding a use for it's a real challenge.

Pandemonium. Wasn't this the reason Phyrexian Dreadnought got power level errata in 1999 (or whenever).

[Filth]

Here's copypasta from my post in the speculation thread on MTGNews (http://www.mtgnews.com/showpost.php?p=3023930&postcount=3):


Speculating on such swingy cards is mostly pointless. There's no telling what kind of drawback(s) it will have. And we don't even know the card's color or creature type(s). Guessing what it'll look like is almost impossible.

- This gets -N/-N for each land you control.
- This gets -N/-N for each land your opponents control.
- As this enters the battlefield, choose a player / an opponent. // This gets -N/-N for each land the chosen player controls.
- This gets -N/-N for each land on the battlefield.

Either total crap past turn 2, or way too powerful in the first turns, depending on the value of N. Oh, and obviously it doesn't have to be lands - could be cards in hand, cards in graveyards, or anything - but counting lands would make sense in a land block.

- When this enters the battlefield...

Doesn't matter what it is, it'll just get Stifled. Unless they include a clunky "can't be countered" clause.

- As an additional cost to cast this...
- Cast this only if...

Hello, AEther Vial.

- Whenever <something that happens all the time>, <massive drawback>.

Yay for yet another Desecration Elemental.

- At the beginning of your upkeep, pay N or sac this.
- At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice something [or sac this].
- At the beginning of your upkeep, <something bad happens to you>.
- At the beginning of your upkeep, <RANDOMNESS!>. (Scoria Wurm)
- At the beginning of your upkeep, the player with the highest/lowest life total gains control of this.

Do it right and it might be balanced. Just please, try not to make it broken with Mass Hysteria / Concordant Crossroads.

- Whenever this attacks [or blocks]...
- Whenever this deals damage...
- This can't attack [or block] unless...

Flesh Reaver, Myr Prototype. Impress me with a new kind of a drawback here.

- When <condition>, sacrifice this.

Emperor Crocodile, etc. If it's this, it probably can't be dropped turn 1 anyway. (On a side note, "When you control a land, sacrifice this" would be totally awesome.)

- This enters the battlefield with N -1/-1 counters.
- This enters the battlefield with N random counters.

Sturdy Hatchling, Woolly Razorback. Not likely in the same set with Vampire Hexmage, though it could certainly be interesting.

- Defender (This creature is not useful.)

Problem solved. \o/There are other possible drawbacks, but I just wanted to list some of them to show people that "When this enters the battlefield" stuff isn't the only possibility (though that's obviously what everyone wants it to be).

[Maveric78f]

I'd love an ability alla Flailing X with Land fall.

Flailing Nought %1
Flailing Nought comes into play with 12 -1/-1 counters
Landfall : remove a -1/-1 counter from Flailing Nought.
Opponent Landfall : put a -1/-1 counter on Flailing Nought.
13/13

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

Intriguing but improbable would be:

Lazy Krakenought
:1:
Artifact Creature - Kraken Dreadnought
Lazy Krakenought can't attack or block.
13/13

Even more amusing would be if it had the ability "Lazy Krakenought can't be sacrificed." Then finding a use for it's a real challenge.

Pandemonium FTW!

[DownSyndromeKarl]

Intriguing but improbable would be:

Lazy Krakenought
:1:
Artifact Creature - Kraken Dreadnought
Lazy Krakenought can't attack or block.
13/13

Even more amusing would be if it had the ability "Lazy Krakenought can't be sacrificed." Then finding a use for it's a real challenge.

Arena? still not awesome, but its a use.

I like the Flailing idea Maveric had but, I really think that it will have a multikick that adds +1/+1 counters.

Here's an idea of a crazy drawback:

~Card Name~ must be blocked. Creatures assigned to block ~card name~ gain protection from ~card name's color~

[mchainmail]

Here's an idea of a crazy drawback:

~Card Name~ must be blocked. Creatures assigned to block ~card name~ gain protection from ~card name's color~

So... drop Rancor on it... or just play it on turn 1 anyways and hope they end up not dropping t2 goyf. (or Force Goyf, snare it, etc.)

[DownSyndromeKarl]

who plays Rancor? lol

Maybe he's a one-trick pony:

Chuck Norris
:1:
Legendary Artifact Creature - Ninja
Defender. ~Card Name~ can block Progenitus.

[FoolofaTook]

Fair and balanced.

Unstable Dreadnought
:1:
Artifact Creature - Dreadnought

Landfall - sacrifice Unstable Dreadnought.
Opponent Landfall - sacrifice Unstable Dreadnought

When Unstable Dreadnought is put into your graveyard from play it does damage equal to its power to you and target creature.

13/13

[Infinitium]

Seeing as MaRo has hinted that the Eldrazi will rely heavily on a special class of creature tokens, I'd reckon it's something along the lines of:

At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice ~ unless you sacrifice creatures with a combined power of N or greater.

[FoolofaTook]

Seeing as MaRo has hinted that the Eldrazi will rely heavily on a special class of creature tokens, I'd reckon it's something along the lines of:

At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice ~ unless you sacrifice creatures with a combined power of N or greater.

Well that would be one way to try to promote cards like Miren, The Moaning Well, Kresh, The Blood-braided, Ooze Garden and Fling. That actually would not be a bad idea for Legacy right now, dedicated control is kind of at a nadir at this point with the rise of Zoo.

[Reverend Damaged]

Here's what I would expect:

CARDNAME (1)
Artifact Creature - Golem

When CARDNAME comes into play, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice creatures with a total toughness of 13.
Trample
13/13

Gogo Kraken deck!


Oh man, this would suck, I JUST got Dreadnoughts :-O

What if it was almost exactly the same as Phyrexian Dreadnought, but lost trample?


CARDNAME (1)
Artifact Creature - Golem

When CARDNAME comes into play, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice creatures with a total power of 13.
13/13


Losing trample = not awesome, but seems like something they might do.

[sunshine]

Unless the drawback is a one-time triggered ability (and I hope they learned their lesson already), this card just has to be awful (right?!?). You know, like "as an addition cost..." Dreadnought, not "when this enters the battlefield..." Dreadnought. My guess is multikicker is involved though.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

Unless the drawback is a one-time triggered ability (and I hope they learned their lesson already), this card just has to be awful (right?!?). You know, like "as an addition cost..." Dreadnought, not "when this enters the battlefield..." Dreadnought. My guess is multikicker is involved though.

Yeah, I really can't see it being a new Dreadnought, especially since it will share extended with Trickbind for a while.

[Sevryn]

CITP: sacrifice a tarmogoyf.

[FoulQ]

They are going to print it as a copy of dreadnought without trample. You wanna know why?

Because they are going to reprint stifle for fetchlands!!!

And because they are going to reprint wasteland.

I just have a feeling. And I'm rarely wrong on my feelings.

[MMogg]

They are going to print it as a copy of dreadnought without trample. You wanna know why?

Because they are going to reprint stifle for fetchlands!!!

And because they are going to reprint wasteland.

I just have a feeling. And I'm rarely wrong on my feelings.

I just jizzed myself.

I wish. I want to see a new framed Stifle/Wasteland. :cool: I doubt your feelings, though. :tongue:

[dahcmai]

Could be an all in type of effect such as:

When "this" comes into play discard your hand and sacrifice all your lands.

Then all they have to do is not give it trample and it's automatically not that great in other formats.


I would get a kick out of a useless creature though. Arena ftw!



Stifle would be an interesting card right now, though it doesn't hit much besides planeswalkers. I guess Landfall triggers wouldn't be all that horrid in a pinch, but it sucks for the most part. I really can't picture them allowing a Dreadstill combo into standard though.

[Illissius]

And because they are going to reprint wasteland.

I'd be willing to bet you money that they're not.

The wrongest I've ever been was when, pre-Time Spiral, based on early spoilers, I started connecting the dots -- Dredge, Flashback, split second, and there were some other things I forget -- and predicted they were about to reprint Counterspell. They printed Cancel.

[Shugyosha]

And because they are going to reprint wasteland.

Now, this would seriously f*ck up Jund. Not the worst thing to happen.

[Forbiddian]

CARDNAME (1)
Artifact Creature - Golem

When CARDNAME comes into play, Sacrifice all lands you control and discard two cards from your hand.
Trample
13/13

That card is ridiculously broken.

If your opponent isn't running a deck with Swords, just cast it turn 1 and win on turn 3.


Turn 1 mother of runes, turn 2 that. I'd gladly discard a few cards to win the game. It's not like there will be time in this short-sprint to actually play them out anyway.

Turn 1 that with Force of Will backup.



It will probably need an extremely stiff drawback that's hard to play around.

13/13 Cumulative Upkeep 1, As an additional cost to play ~, sacrifice all lands you control. If ~ comes into play and wasn't hardcast (however they word that), you lose.

[Filth]

13/13 Cumulative Upkeep 1, As an additional cost to play ~, sacrifice all lands you control. If ~ comes into play and wasn't hardcast (however they word that), you lose.

Holy hell this would be powerful. Like, turn 1 Chrome Mox, cast this, drop a land, and you have a 2-turn clock right there. Even in Standard you could go T1 Borderpost, T2 this + land for the same effect, only a turn later.

But the point you were trying to make is still true. It needs drawbacks that people can't play around. Most of those just end up being really lame, like Phyrexian Soulgorger.

Would this be too powerful?

Vengeant Spirit :w:
Creature - Spirit
Vengeant Spirit enters the battlefield with X -1/-1 counters, where X is your life total.
13/13

That's the least lame drawback I've been able to think of. :/

[Barook]

I don't know why this card is even worth discussion yet - it's most likely not another Dreadnought, but with a chance of 95% some unplayable timmy fodder that is going to suck - hard.

[FoulQ]

I don't know why this card is even worth discussion yet - it's most likely not another Dreadnought, but with a chance of 95% some unplayable timmy fodder that is going to suck - hard.

It's definitely not worth the discussion. But we're going to continue anyways, as this is mtg the source.

I do agree that this card is most likely going to blow. Not all the frontliners they have suck though, like some are saying. Baneslayer, if I remember, was spoiled pretty early. Cobra isn't as good as said but it's still a solid card. Planeswalkers in general of course. Etc.

[keys]

Vengeant Spirit :w:
Creature - Spirit
Vengeant Spirit enters the battlefield with X -1/-1 counters, where X is your life total.
13/13

That's the least lame drawback I've been able to think of. :/

Probably something close to this. No more mana burn, anti-vampire, etc.

[pi4meterftw]

Probably something close to this. No more mana burn, anti-vampire, etc.

W

13/13

~ comes into play with 13 -1/-1 counters.

When ~ comes into play, search your library for a card named weathered wayfarer, and a card named fathom seer. Put weathered wayfarer into play, and fathom seer into your hand.

[Aggro_zombies]

W

13/13

~ comes into play with 13 -1/-1 counters.

When ~ comes into play, search your library for a card named weathered wayfarer, and a card named fathom seer. Put weathered wayfarer into play, and fathom seer into your hand.
Desperate to promote our deck much?

[pi4meterftw]

Desperate to promote our deck much?

Since when was it "our deck?"

[Wargoos]

Desperate to promote our deck much?

Yeah, it got quite giddy lately.

[Aggro_zombies]

Since when was it "our deck?"
It's a figure of speech. Replace "our" with "your" if having your precious brainchild being so callously assaulted by my verbal slings and arrows hurts you that much.

:tongue:

[Morim_Brightsmoke]

Originally Posted by Maveric78f View Post
Another speculation that sounds balanced to me.

Dreader Nought %1
Dreader Nought comes into play with 12 -1/-1 counters
Sacrifice a creature: remove X -1/-1 counters from Dreader Nought where X is the power of the sacrificed creature.
13/13
I could see them doing this one with Shroud, just so you CAN'T Hexmage it into play!


Yeah that would be fair an balanced a 13/13 shroud for the low cost of 1U, discard stifle.

[mchainmail]

Yeah that would be fair an balanced a 13/13 shroud for the low cost of 1U, discard stifle.

It's a Comes into play effect?, not a triggered ability.

(Think of how Mox Diamond makes you pitch a land before it comes into play)

[Maveric78f]

Yeah that would be fair an balanced a 13/13 shroud for the low cost of 1U, discard stifle.

1/ Learn to quote properly. We could think that I'm the one who talked about shroud.
2/ It's a static ability that cannot be stifled.
3/ No need for being sarcastic, especially when you are all wrong.

[Humphrey]

I just jizzed myself.

I wish. I want to see a new framed Stifle/Wasteland. :cool: I doubt your feelings, though. :tongue:

http://www.magickartenmarkt.de/img/cards/Judge_Rewards/stifle.jpg

[clavio]

Didn't wizards say at one point they don't do -1/-1 counters anymore??

[Aggro_zombies]

Didn't wizards say at one point they don't do -1/-1 counters anymore??
Prior to Shadowmoor, yes. Now they use them "strategically," or whatever similar term MaRo used.

[dahcmai]

The -1/-1 counters thing has some merit considering that Hexmage is in the block and you know how Wizards likes to make "OMG Combos!".

[Zack Guido]

Vengeant Spirit :w:
Creature - Spirit
Vengeant Spirit enters the battlefield with X -1/-1 counters, where X is your life total.
13/13

That's the least lame drawback I've been able to think of. :/

This seems to me to be a great way to print a card like this. Great possibility for flavor, hard to break, not all that good, haha.

And reprinting Wasteland seems like a plausible thing for them to be doing with Worldwake, though I hope they don't honestly.. But Wasteland in Standard would be a lot of fun to see..

[Aggro_zombies]

There are zero hits for Wasteland in the Orb, but a functional reprint is still on the table, if a bit strong for the current Standard environment.

[HAVE HEART]

What exactly did the Twitter message say? (Sorry, Twitter is blocked in China so I can't check.)

That is pretty funny.

As for the giant monster: I am doubtful it will be useful. Its drawback has to be catastrophic.

[Illissius]

Prior to Shadowmoor, yes. Now they use them "strategically," or whatever similar term MaRo used.

In general, it's not worth taking much of what Wizards says at face value. They can always change their minds, and Rule #1 for R&D is that rules exist to be broken. They would never put Planeswalkers on a card -- until they did. They would never make colored artifacts -- until they did. They would never reprint Lightning Bolt -- until they did. And so on.



There are zero hits for Wasteland in the Orb, but a functional reprint is still on the table, if a bit strong for the current Standard environment.

Also a bit strong for the current Legacy environment. Four is enough, thank you very much.

[Zlatzman]

Also a bit strong for the current Legacy environment. Four is enough, thank you very much.

Unless Wizards is trying to force fetchlands + basics over fetchlands + duals, if that is the case printing four new "Wasteland" might be a very good idea for them. I doubt this though

[Barook]

Wasteland is never going to be reprintend for simple money reasons. Every expansion, they release new, shitty duals which T2 players need for multi-colored decks. But Wasteland would pretty much kill those multi-colored decks, meaning less money for Wizards.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Unless Wizards is trying to force fetchlands + basics over fetchlands + duals, if that is the case printing four new "Wasteland" might be a very good idea for them. I doubt this though

Would be bad. Come on 8 wastelands in legacy :/

[Illissius]

R&D hates mana denial so much they stopped reprinting Stone Rain. Stone fricking Rain. They are not going to reprint Wasteland.

[freakish777]

Wasteland is never going to be reprintend for simple money reasons. Every expansion, they release new, shitty duals which T2 players need for multi-colored decks. But Wasteland would pretty much kill those multi-colored decks, meaning less money for Wizards.

Unless they were planning on reprinting the original duals, so people had access to Legacy....


I think my brain is bleeding though after saying that, so I'm with the "Wizards won't reprint Wasteland" camp.

[Darkenslight]

As an update, apparently, the card is 13/13 for B; it's an Avatar and it has the text: Cardname gets -X/-X, where X is your life total. Name is siupposedly Death's Shadow.

Link here. (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=4843525&postcount=4)

Seems awesome for Suiblack. :)

EDIT: So it loos like this:

Death's Shadow {b} (Rare)
Creature - Avatar
Death's Shadow gets -X/-X, where X is your life Total.

13/13

[deadlock]

It rises to full power right when you die - awesome flavour!

[Bigface]

It's still a 3/3 for B when you're at 10. And grows from there on. It may suck (a lot!) against aggro, but against control it could be nice. Obviously, it's slow as hell. Unless you play Pox. Could be a bomb in that deck.

[Knuckles29]

i'm gonna say mono SI. I'm also noticing a bunch of new cards for tier 2 decks in this set.

New demon for "demon" stompy

Lodestone for 5/3

..... just putting that out there

[eq.firemind]

So it's time to dust off Hatred! :smile:

[Infinitium]

So it's a 1-drop that cannot be played on turn 1, requires you to somehow damage yourself against control/combo and requires you to be losing yet controlling the board at the same time in order to be useful against aggressive decks. Cute.

[Wrath_Of_Houlding]

Great combo with Lich!

[Rizso]

IMO the 13/13 creature has potencial with cards like flamerifts, Snuff out, bob and/or Sylvan Library. Would like to see the 13/13 to have like trample thought.

[Bigface]

So it's a 1-drop that cannot be played on turn 1, requires you to somehow damage yourself against control/combo and requires you to be losing yet controlling the board at the same time in order to be useful against aggressive decks. Cute.

Pox decks do that, without losing. Apart from that deck, it kinda sucks.

ALSO: If you play it with Platinum Angel and your life total goes < 0, what happens? Double negative becomes a plus? Just said out of curiosity, of course.

[Skeggi]

Silly Card. MaRo says it's the biggest P/T creature for one mana ever printed. Well, according to that reasoning they might print the following card:

Deck's Shadow U

Deck's Shadow gets -X/-X where X is the number of cards in your deck.

45/45

[Fons]

Silly Card. MaRo says it's the biggest P/T creature for one mana ever printed. Well, according to that reasoning they might print the following card:

Deck's Shadow U

Deck's Shadow gets -X/-X where X is the number of cards in your deck.

45/45

That card would be so ridiculous

[sco0ter]

Swamp, Spoils of the Vault naming Death's Shadow, lose 19 life. Chrome Mox, cast Death's Shadow. Go. :-D

[Nihil Credo]

ALSO: If you play it with Platinum Angel and your life total goes < 0, what happens? Double negative becomes a plus? Just said out of curiosity, of course.

The game keeps track of negative life totals, but always treat them as zero.

The dude is very very bad, but it might have a few quirky uses as a sideboard tool: perhaps it could shore up Mono-Black's awful Burn/Sligh matchup? Another possibility is that, at some point in the future, a deck comes into existence that plays both Swamps and Ranger of Eos, making this an easy singleton to include.

[Wargoos]

Swamp, Spoils of the Vault naming Death's Shadow, lose 19 life. Chrome Mox, cast Death's Shadow. Go. :-D

Lightning Bolt oO

[Phoenix Ignition]

Why did they have to make this a rare?

God, I'm going to open hudreds of these just like I did Magosis last set :frown:

[Cire]

Swamp, Spoils of the Vault naming Death's Shadow, lose 19 life. Chrome Mox, cast Death's Shadow. Go. :-D

I kind of like this better

1st Swamp - Dark Ritual - Plunge into Darkness (pay 14 life) (chances are your going get another Deaths shadow in your hand) Play Death's Shadow (7/7)
2nd Play the second Deaths Shadow, attack with the first
3rd Attack for 14

Only takes 3 cards (not including a swamp) to win turn 3, so you can put in untold amounts of discard, control, whatever. Spoils of the vault could help as well.

meh, sounds like a fun card.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Only takes 3 cards (not including a swamp) to win turn 3, so you can put in untold amounts of discard, control, whatever. Spoils of the vault could help as well.

meh, sounds like a fun card.

Well it only takes 2 bolts to kill you. Seems like you just did the Zoo player a biiiig favor.

[Cire]

Well it only takes 2 bolts to kill you. Seems like you just did the Zoo player a biiiig favor.

well thats why presumably it will be a risky deck, and why it would be playing discard and counters? Getting 2 burn spells through a counter/discard wall, within 3 turns (if theyre going first, the first turn doesnt count, you can just sac less life) and also playing blockers, would be a hard thing to do. Besides i think it's evident that any deck with a game plan of sacrificing life would have a bad pure-aggro matchup

[wolfstorm]

Seems like it would be a decent card in pox

[Bastian]

Assuming your opponent is playing control...

You play Pox #1
20 life - 7 = 13
You can't play Death's Shadow

You play Pox #2
13 life - 4 = 9
You play Death's Shadow. Death's Shadow is 13-9... 4/4

So you have to play a couple of Poxes before this is a 4/4 for B, assuming your opponent hasn't dealt you any damage yet.

It might be interesting on some decks' SB, but I'm not seeing this mainboard anywhere.

Abyssal Persecutor seems more interesting :)

[Rizso]

Think Death's Shadow will be better in an aggressive deck where its the deck on offensive. Using the life total as a resource, snuffouts, Flamerifts, Dark Confidants and/or Sylvan Library. I See the deaths shadow More as a Wild Nacatl then i see a phyrexian Dreadnaught in it.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Think Death's Shadow will be better in an aggressive deck where its the deck on offensive. Using the life total as a resource, snuffouts, Flamerifts, Dark Confidants and/or Sylvan Library. I See the deaths shadow More as a Wild Nacatl then i see a phyrexian Dreadnaught in it.

You're running a creature that can't feasibly be dropped before turn 5 in an aggressive deck, with a massive drawback (you get 2 and they StP one the other dies instantly, or they StP your goyf and it dies).

It's just not going to happen, I'm sorry, the card is awful.

EDIT: Lets break it down even more, it's not good against Aggro decks, it's not good against Combo, it can easily be 2 for 1ed against aggro-control if they play StP and you play any other creatures with it, and even with Poxing a few times it's tiny and has no evasion.

[dahcmai]

It has become my personal goal to find someone actually playing with this Death's Shadow and cast Illicit Auction (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=16449) on it.

[Leftconsin]

It has become my personal goal to find someone actually playing with this Death's Shadow and cast Illicit Auction (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=16449) on it.

And then Fireblast them as soon as you let them bid down past 4, right?

Maybe it would be cool to throw the card in with some Snuff Outs and Dark Confidants. The card then has the mission to make sui-black playable as a whole. I don't think its good enough to do that in the face of Zoo.

[Gheizen64]

If it doesn't trample, it's unplayable sadly. You must be at 8 life or less for this to overcome a Goyf.

[Illissius]

Death's Shadow seems very hard to break in a playable way. Best way would probably involve taking advantage of its power/toughness being 13/13 while not in play -- Sutured Ghoul or something. Maybe it would be less useless than Phyrexian Dreadnought or Polar Kraken. I dunno. But that's pretty thin gruel. It's too bad there's no card which takes abilities away from creatures without also setting their power/toughness.

Additionally, I'm fairly certain they printed Shivan Meteor as a preemptive measure to make sure things don't get out of hand with this guy and Lich.

[FieryBalrog]

Swords to Plowshares is lol against this.

"Plow your Death's Shadow. Kill your other Death's Shadow. Spit in your face, and set your village on fire."

[Sevryn]

On the really, really awful side of combos, this thing plays pretty hilariously with Hatred.

[Waikiki]

Could be nice with sylvan library in some sort of BG aggro deck. Snuff outs could join the team aswell.

[eq.firemind]

Vendetta suddenly becomes better. Free removal (Snuff Out) + 1-cost removal combines into a nice package.
Also, Devour in Shadow if you have lots of bobs and stalkers in your metagame.

[Maagler]

Interesting interaction with hatred.

[AngryTroll]

Interesting interaction with hatred.

Unfortunately, you need to be at 12 life when you play the Death's Shadow. Hatred is good after that point, but you can't use the Hatred on Death's Shadow to get down that far.

[snorlaxcom]

Reminds me of Nyxathid's hype, he usefull when it's too late. With EE, zoo, and more noobs trying red for legacy opens this guy is too unattractive for the legacy setting.

[rufus]

If it's -x/-x for your life total, you could plausibly just pop out a couple of hasty ones with Ad Nauseam, or after digging with Sylvan Library.

[snorlaxcom]

If it's -x/-x for your life total, you could plausibly just pop out a couple of hasty ones with Ad Nauseam, or after digging with Sylvan Library.

Seems like a winmore since resolving an Ad Nauseam is gg. Maybe an sb plan with bobs, but that would take at least 6 slots of the sb to do what? Maybe against control it might work, but it gets owned by CB.

Looks like a dead cards in hand for the early turns, so is that the main draw for suggesting for pox? Pox already has more synergystic threats with evasion which don't commit to having a low life total. The spoiled Abyssal Persecutor seems better here anyway.

[DragoFireheart]

You know, I always found it interesting that many of blacks interesting self-sacrifice spells makes them very vulnerable to red burn spells.

In any case, isn't there some sort of sneak attack thingy or a another "bring it into play effect that can bypass the -X/-X counters?

[rufus]

In any case, isn't there some sort of sneak attack thingy or a another "bring it into play effect that can bypass the -X/-X counters?

It's a static ability, so something that ignores it - like sutured ghoul - would work just fine, but enters play/comes into play avoidance like Volrath's Shapeshifter won't make a difference.

[Maveric78f]

Funny enough, if you control 2 of them, a sword on one would kill the other right after leave you at 13 life. In legacy it means it's almost legendary against W decks. I think it's still a good card that can be broken with Snuff Out, Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize and Sylvan Library. Unfortunately, we don't have Necropotence, Channel or Fastbond to power it fast enough. But by turn 3, you might have lowered your life enough to impress opposing Tarmogoyfs.

I could see Eva Green enjoying it:
Critters: 13
4 13/13
4 Tarmo
3 Stalkers
2 Nantuko Shade

Spells: 26
4 Snuff Out
4 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
4 Dark Ritual

Lands: 21
4 Wastelands
1 forest
3 Bayou
8 B fetches
4 swamps
1 Urborg

Explode your hand, explose your life total, to have your opponent play on topdeck mode and take advantage of your mana denial.

[evilgorrilaz]

For exactly the reason that you say that 2 of them are like legendary vs W, I wouldn't consider running more than 2 maindeck.

[Rizso]

I doubt the deck should use to much self inflicted damage. The self damage inflicted cards should be good enought without deaths shadow. He can for example block 1 of 2 attacking tarmogoyfs and survive after cos his abilitie is static.

[rufus]

The most obvious choices for dumping a bunch of life I see are:
Lim-Dul's Vault
Plunge into Darkness

I'm not sure that Sylvan Library is really viable.

This could very plausibly finish with on turn 3 as a dedicated all-in combo deck:
Turn 1: Chrome Mox, Swamp, Plunge
Turn 2: Underground Sea, Shadow, Brainstorm/Thoughtseize
Turn 3: Lim-Dul's Vault, Swamp, Swing, Rite of Consumption

In practice, it's probably better as some kind of mixed deck since there are a lot of solid aggro and controlish cards that will work with the concept. Unfortunately, there's a huge temptation to combine this with SDT and Counterbalance since it really wants to play UB with Bob.