[Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

[Kayradis]

You are a planeswalker!

[Davran]

Depends on how long people think a couple grand is ok for a Legacy deck.

I can only speak for myself, but Legacy is completely unaffordable to me right now. Mind you, I make a decent living, but 2-3k on a good Legacy deck is nuts.

I've definitely been priced out of the format.

I'm with you 100%. I can't imagine things continuing as they are forever without some fundamental shift somewhere. If adults like you and I with stable incomes can't afford to play, how is some kid who heard about magic from his buddies supposed to break into the format?

I suppose you could shrug it off and gesture at modern...but things aren't all that much better there, either. Especially not with a fluctuating ban list that sees meteoric rises and falls in card prices depending solely on the whims of the DCI and the ensuing speculation.

[(nameless one)]

I'm with you 100%. I can't imagine things continuing as they are forever without some fundamental shift somewhere. If adults like you and I with stable incomes can't afford to play, how is some kid who heard about magic from his buddies supposed to break into the format?

I suppose you could shrug it off and gesture at modern...but things aren't all that much better there, either. Especially not with a fluctuating ban list that sees meteoric rises and falls in card prices depending solely on the whims of the DCI and the ensuing speculation.

I also want to bring up that the original intention of type 1.5 was a cheaper alternative to type 1. With that comparison, there is a potential that Modern will be as expensive as Legacy in the near future.

[Barook]

I also want to bring up that the original intention of type 1.5 was a cheaper alternative to type 1. With that comparison, there is a potential that Modern will be as expensive as Legacy in the near future.
The problem is that Wizards wants to keep the collectors happy - but how can you make cards more accessable if you only reprint them in small numbers to keep the prices stable? :confused:

Aside from that, Wizards really needs to adress the secondary market faster and better - they still haven't reprinted the Onslaught fetches and the Zendikar ones are getting out of hand - price-wise.

[Kage]

You can compare Magic to powerboating, horse owning or collecting vintage cars, but in the end of the day it's a paper card based strategy game with a tournament support. If you consider that you can buy Starcraft for about 50$, an average board game for about 30-50$, or look at other LCG/CCG alternatives (Netrunner, etc.) spending 2-3 grand on a Legacy deck is fucking ridicoulous.

I've sold off my ANT deck when I realised I could buy a brand new PC and legal copies of CS and Warcraft 3 for its price and still have some money left for drinking. Hell I've played Star Wars Minis until it died where the most expensive piece was 50$ and the top-tier squads could be built for 50-150 bucks.

[kingsey]

I'm with you 100%. I can't imagine things continuing as they are forever without some fundamental shift somewhere. If adults like you and I with stable incomes can't afford to play, how is some kid who heard about magic from his buddies supposed to break into the format?

I suppose you could shrug it off and gesture at modern...but things aren't all that much better there, either. Especially not with a fluctuating ban list that sees meteoric rises and falls in card prices depending solely on the whims of the DCI and the ensuing speculation.


I don't think this format is for kids, isnt that what standard is for?

[useL]

You can compare Magic to powerboating, horse owning or collecting vintage cars, but in the end of the day it's a paper card based strategy game with a tournament support. If you consider that you can buy Starcraft for about 50$, an average board game for about 30-50$, or look at other LCG/CCG alternatives (Netrunner, etc.) spending 2-3 grand on a Legacy deck is fucking ridicoulous.

I've sold off my ANT deck when I realised I could buy a brand new PC and legal copies of CS and Warcraft 3 for its price and still have some money left for drinking. Hell I've played Star Wars Minis until it died where the most expensive piece was 50$ and the top-tier squads could be built for 50-150 bucks.

And in three years you will throw away the computer that made you play games with fat antisocial people 24/7 and realize that we kept our ANT deck and will be able to pay the down payment on our house with them.

[TsumiBand]

And in three years you will throw away the computer that made you play games with fat antisocial people 24/7 and realize that we kept our ANT deck and will be able to pay the down payment on our house with them.

.........because no fat, anti-social Magic player ever got rid of their cards too soon in the history of Earth, ever.

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Koby]

I don't disagree, but let's also remember that there's a Pimp Legacy Decks thread (right below this thread, amusingly), and those decks are clearly way more expensive than the average Legacy 75. There are also a lot of different posters in that thread; it's not just nedleeds and sdematt sharing pictures of their finery.

I don't think any of us consider an English language Rishadan Port to be "pimp". Its price alone puts it above the "weight in gold" metric; and that's sad for a card that's not on the Reserve List. Actually, It's more sad that the price is that high, rather than its lack of reprint. Either way, I think WotC missed a huge opportunity to print it in FTV: Lands.

[Davran]

I don't think this format is for kids, isnt that what standard is for?

Arguably, the whole game is for "kids"...but I digress.

As players, it is in our best interests that the game (and the format) continue to grow. If the barrier to entry is so high that even long-time veterans with developed collections are feeling the financial burden something is wrong. We can't have both an exponential increase in card "value" and an increase in new players/interest in the format forever.

[Mr.C]

And in three years you will throw away the computer that made you play games with fat antisocial people 24/7 and realize that we kept our ANT deck and will be able to pay the down payment on our house with them.

I dunno, I've had my computer since 2008 (spent about $1000 on it then), and still haven't upgraded. I buy stuff mostly on Steam sales, and it's given me countless hours of entertainment vs playing Legacy.

I mean, I get it, people are still buying into the format, but to think that prices will continue to rise at the same pace is foolish and dangerous. Sure, I myself have bought a couple of cars and put a downpayment on a condo with the profits off of cards, but I never bought in with the expectation that prices would rise exponentially. It was pure dumb luck.

[JPoJohnson]

Agreed with Mr. C.

I'm curious to see what people think in regards to buying cards. I've always looked at it as a payment towards a hobbie. People don't repair their ATVs with the expectation that they will get the same or more out of it than they put into it. They invest into their enjoyment.

If I end up getting out even or less, I won't end up being surprised. If the market drops quite a bit, it's just the price of the hobby. If it goes up it's lucky. It's just the way hobbies typically work. If you want to get into the collectible aspect of the game, there are definitely specific cards that you can buy in order to get the investment. If you want to play the game, you invest differently.

[Lord Seth]

Aside from that, Wizards really needs to adress the secondary market faster and better - they still haven't reprinted the Onslaught fetches and the Zendikar ones are getting out of hand - price-wise.
With any luck, the fetchlands will be in the next Standard block. I think there's some good reasons to expect that to be the case; Zendikar was a big hit and had a land theme, so they'll want to do that again, and the "minimum" time between repeating block themes will have elapsed when we get to Huey.

A friend of mine pointed to Courser of Kruphix as a possible hint of another land block coming up. And if they do lands again, they'll want to bring back landfall, and if they do that, then of course the fetchlands come back, hopefully with all 10. So I'm reeeeeeally hoping we'll get fetchlands in the next block.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Got bored.
An ounce of Mox Pearl(UNL) is 9002.81$ US
1 once of Mox = 6 onces of Gold.
Just sayin'

"You'll take out some of the stuff only once or twice a year, so let them shine.

Hips: satin skirt with feathers: Gucci, info on price in boutique.
Top: Tunic with flowery motive, Dolce & Gabana, 1100 dollars.
Feet: leather heels, Dior, 900 dollars.
Sunglasses: Ray-Ban, 300 dollars.
Ring: white gold with plutonium, Swarovski, 2300 dollars
Earrings: foil Tarmogoyfs, Star City Shop, info on price in boutique."



http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p219/BedDecksPalyer/model_zps06a86e09.jpg

[Dia_Bot]

"You'll take out some of the stuff only once or twice a year, so let them shine.

Hips: satin skirt with feathers: Gucci, info on price in boutique.
Top: Tunic with flowery motive, Dolce & Gabana, 1100 dollars.
Feet: leather heels, Dior, 900 dollars.
Sunglasses: Ray-Ban, 300 dollars.
Ring: white gold with plutonium, Swarovski, 2300 dollars
Earrings: foil Tarmogoyfs, Star City Shop, info on price in boutique."


Any price and brand information on those boobs? They sure look pretty pimp aswell :tongue:

[Raystar]

How much for the lady?


;)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

How much for the lady?


;)

So instead of singles, you'd rather buy the whole Fat Pack?

[Dan Turner]

So instead of singles, you'd rather buy the whole Fat Pack?

If that comes in a fat pack I am up for a case every new set.

[mcfarland]

How much for the lady?


;)

How about let's stop with the casual, 9th-grade-like objectification of women?

[ryO!]

any idea why Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir triple in price ? as well as amulet of vigor & vigor (seriously?) ?

to answer myself

those cards were garbage a wild pro tour happens aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand that's not the case anymore ... (still don't get the Vigor, the creature, spike though ...)

[Mr.C]

any idea why Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir triple in price ? as well as amulet of vigor, past in flames, azuza, vigor (seriously?), primeval titan ?

Because the current state of the market makes it child's play to artificially inflate the perceived price of a card.

[anonymos]

any idea why Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir triple in price ? as well as amulet of vigor & vigor (seriously?) ?

Modern GP. Deck is doing well. Look at "Blue Moon" and the amulet of vigor deck (unless they're the same). Been listening to someone whine all day yesterday about it because he sold his amulets to someone last weekend.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

any idea why Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir triple in price ? as well as amulet of vigor & vigor (seriously?) ?

Idk why Teferi, but Amulet of Vigor is good in cheap non-Candelabra [your number here]Post.

[mini1337s]

any idea why Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir triple in price ? as well as amulet of vigor & vigor (seriously?) ?

to answer myself

those cards were garbage a wild pro tour happens aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand that's not the case anymore ... (still don't get the Vigor, the creature, spike though ...)
People are idiots and will spend money blindly. If people need to learn an expensive lesson, they should buy into this Teferi hype. Sell sell sell sell sell

[Barook]

any idea why Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir triple in price ? as well as amulet of vigor & vigor (seriously?) ?

to answer myself

those cards were garbage a wild pro tour happens aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand that's not the case anymore ... (still don't get the Vigor, the creature, spike though ...)
Matthias Hunt prominently featured a variant of this (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/221765) deck in the Pro Tour and did well with it.

Teferi rose because of some almost Mono-Blue deck that happens to run a splash for Blood Moon (and Spreading Sea for basics) to shit all over Modern's greedy mana bases, with seemingly great effect.

[Megadeus]

There was a next level blue blood moon deck that played Teferi as like a 1 of that did well, and AMulet was played in a glass cannon combo deck that did well

[Bed Decks Palyer]

So, what you're saying is that after I sat on my Amulets of Vigor for years, they spiked not a month later than I have sold them? This is a bad bad day...

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTlsVXfZAIdgOfzPm5iwbybXm7VLVVozkjWwgHFGplx7-PRm-sd

[Barook]

So, what you're saying is that after I sat on my Amulets of Vigor for years, they spiked not a month later than I have sold them? This is a bad bad day...

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTlsVXfZAIdgOfzPm5iwbybXm7VLVVozkjWwgHFGplx7-PRm-sd
They went from 2 to 7 dollars each. That's 20 bucks, unless you were hoarding them.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

They went from 2 to 7 dollars each. That's 20 bucks, unless you were hoarding them.

Yep, I had a playset. I thought I'll use it somewhere, but than a buddy of mine bought them after I never sleeved them for three years. So it's not that painful... :smile:

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That's not hoarding. If it is, I'm responsible for fetch and dual spikes across the board... :rolleyes:

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Bed Decks Palyer]

That's not hoarding. If it is, I'm responsible for fetch and dual spikes across the board... :rolleyes:


Of course it isn't hoarding, I was kidding. But I'm still a little bit surprised that the Amulet have gained in value, is it even remotely good? But yes, it has a bit unusual effect, so maybe I should not be surprised at all.

[Kage]

At least Amulet is a 4-of maindeck card, whereas Teferi is a 1-of in the sideboard, lol.

Basically all the stuff that did well at the Pro Tour jumped (Batterskull, Pyro Ascension, Blood Moon, PiF, Azusa, Snapcaster, Goyf, Cryptic etc.)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Of course it isn't hoarding, I was kidding. But I'm still a little bit surprised that the Amulet have gained in value, is it even remotely good? But yes, it has a bit unusual effect, so maybe I should not be surprised at all.

Heheh, I know. Me too. Sorry for the confusion.


At least Amulet is a 4-of maindeck card, whereas Teferi is a 1-of in the sideboard, lol.

Basically all the stuff that did well at the Pro Tour jumped (Batterskull, Pyro Ascension, Blood Moon, PiF, Azusa, Snapcaster, Goyf, Cryptic etc.)

I think in the confused state of the modern metagame, this should be expected until definite archetypes are established.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Barook]

I think in the confused state of the modern metagame, this should be expected until definite archetypes are established.
Speculators buy out everything that gets hyped in the wake of a GP/PT - it isn't just limited to Legacy.

See: Fist of Suns

[GoblinSettler]

Speculators buy out everything that gets hyped in the wake of a GP/PT - it isn't just limited to Legacy.

See: Fist of Suns

So, Porphyry Nodes are gone. I guess it is easy to buy out a fifty cent card. How much are they going to be when they are back in stock. Barf.

Had a playset in my eBay watchlist for a couple weeks. Figured I would have infinite time to make the purchase.

Nope.

[Barook]

Which decks ran Porphyry Nodes? :confused:

Edit: Okay, the winning deck. It's still strange, though.

[apple713]

Which decks ran Porphyry Nodes? :confused:

Edit: Okay, the winning deck. It's still strange, though.

Uh o, watch the price of drip of honey spike cause if this stupidity

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Uh o, watch the price of drip of honey spike cause if this stupidity

Are you being sarcastic? I mean, why would that happen? That's green, nodes is white. The applications are different just on color alone.

Edit: Barook, Nodes has been used to off-and-on moderate success in landstill since it's printing.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Dan Turner]

Had an interesting discussion at our kitchen table game last night.

How much damage could a single person and $100k do to the magic card market?

I was thinking with the right buy and sell policy a person could maybe double their original investment once per year by manipulating card prices.

A large part of the discussion is I have a friend who is a commodities trader and very good at it, and she was saying that most of what players do with cards based investments/market manipulation would be multiple years of prison time on the commodities market.

She went on to say that with cards the behavior is not only completely legal but with the short run of older stuff could be very profitable to say buy 2000 zendikar fetch lands at avg. $50 each make the price spike by $10 each and flip for a $20k profit.

i went a step further and suggested a mix of legacy staples as a portfolio. Duals, fetches fow led etc. Stuff that if it started disappearing in the market place would cause a panic buy.

[Barook]

How much damage could a single person and $100k do to the magic card market?

I was thinking with the right buy and sell policy a person could maybe double their original investment once per year by manipulating card prices.
Aka SCG's business model?

I could see this working out very well. Wizards takes years to react to market shortages. Buying out Modern staples might work out even better since that market is even volatile than the Legacy market (and let's be realistic, the demand is bigger). I'd say that the Legacy market is already reaching the upper limit for certain staples, but the ceiling for Modern is still high.

Wizards tries to protect the collectors, but who protects US from the speculators? Edit: That would be an interesting topic by itself.

Legacy is easily attackable if you go for the blue duals since they're the format's Achilles' heel (thanks, Brainstorm and other blue, broken crap!).

[JACO]

Had an interesting discussion at our kitchen table game last night.

How much damage could a single person and $100k do to the magic card market?

I was thinking with the right buy and sell policy a person could maybe double their original investment once per year by manipulating card prices.

A large part of the discussion is I have a friend who is a commodities trader and very good at it, and she was saying that most of what players do with cards based investments/market manipulation would be multiple years of prison time on the commodities market.

She went on to say that with cards the behavior is not only completely legal but with the short run of older stuff could be very profitable to say buy 2000 zendikar fetch lands at avg. $50 each make the price spike by $10 each and flip for a $20k profit.

i went a step further and suggested a mix of legacy staples as a portfolio. Duals, fetches fow led etc. Stuff that if it started disappearing in the market place would cause a panic buy.
If I had an investment portfolio of $100K+ in free capital (unattached to other investments, sitting in a bank account) I would bet I could easily double it in the Magic card market within a year. If you have any sort of sense of what is really going on in the #mtgfinance market (aka a handful of people saying things, and then lots of people on Twitter, Reddit, and Facebook lapping up every word and trying to make a buck on the speculative rise of something once it starts moving), backed with a large amount of capital, it should be very easy to reap massive rewards, not even taking into account true market manipulation and attempting to "corner the market" on specific items. The problem is not many people have that much liquid capital sitting around they can use. I really hate most 'finance' articles, but I should probably write one on this very subject, because most people (even many 'speculators' themselves) don't realize how the trajectory of these economics really works.

[Julian23]

I know that you seem to have a lot of experience with #mtgfinance but if things are basically as easy as you make them sound, you should have no problem finding the desired 100k$ in venture capital if you promise such an outstanding ROI.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I know that you seem to have a lot of experience with #mtgfinance but if things are basically as easy as you make them sound, you should have no problem finding the desired 100k$ in venture capital if you promise such an outstanding ROI.

There's a small trouble.
While we all (kinda) know how the MtG market (kinda) works, and have a proper mental image in front of our inner eyes, it doesn't transpose into a business model/project that easily. No bank/w-e will lend you 100k dollars to play childrens pictorial game, but come with a solid study on MtG economics, and they'll run to the safe before you'll ask for the precise sum.

Maybe.

[Julian23]

There's a small trouble.
While we all (kinda) know how the MtG market (kinda) works, and have a proper mental image in front of our inner eyes, it doesn't transpose into a business model/project that easily. No bank/w-e will lend you 100k dollars to play childrens pictorial game, but come with a solid study on MtG economics, and they'll run to the safe before you'll ask for the precise sum.

Maybe.

I didn't really have banks in my when I spoke of venture capital. I doubt any real bank would actually hand out credits for the sole purpose of speculation to someone who's otherwise lacking financial credibility.
I was more thinking of people that are looking for a new and different investment.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is, if it was as easy as people sometimes make it sound, it should probably be done.

[humppa]

Another small issue - it is easy to buy hundreds copies of a card, but it is not that easy to sell hundreds copies... maybe to a shop, but than you are making much lower profit.

[Barook]

Another small issue - it is easy to buy hundreds copies of a card, but it is not that easy to sell hundreds copies... maybe to a shop, but than you are making much lower profit.
I wouldn't call that a small issue.

I'd say it depends on how you want to invest - RL cards are somewhat save since you don't run into the danger of reprints anytime soon. However, the higher the price, the lower the ROI is going to be. And let's not forget that, depending on your country, once you reach a certain threshold, you'll have to pay taxes as well.

Low value cards have might wield a better ROI, but are harder to move in bulks and if they aren't on the RL, reprints are a danger.

[ryan1989]

There are already hedge funds investing in rare coins and vintage cars, why not a mtg fund? Aside from the compliance costs, I don't think that much capital would be required.

[phonics]

I didn't really have banks in my when I spoke of venture capital. I doubt any real bank would actually hand out credits for the sole purpose of speculation to someone who's otherwise lacking financial credibility.
I was more thinking of people that are looking for a new and different investment.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is, if it was as easy as people sometimes make it sound, it should probably be done.

I would say that it already is being done. Unlike other markets, the value of singles that one would invest in really only go up unless a) A better version is printed or b) it becomes banned from an eternal format. It doesnt take much cards that will make gains. Or you could just straight up manipulate prices of rarer cards. Recall that one guy that bought a large number (like stacks) of each guru land except plains as an investment before they were even 30$ a piece. I wouldnt be surprised if the same thing is done with things like foil Japanese/ korean cards.

[MGB]

Today I stopped at my LGS and looked in the display case. I see a NM City of Traitors that was sitting there a week ago. A week ago, the price on this card was $49.99, and in the dim light I thought the new price had been marked at "69.99". So I casually remark, "wow, this went up fast in price! a week ago it was $20 less!". The shop owner looks confused, and starts to ask me if it went up in price recently or not. Then I squint and realize that the price tag still said "49.99". But before I can say anything else, shop-owner is at his computer, bringing up TCGPlayer.com, and then rushes to the display case, grabs the card, and affixes a new sticker to the card that reads "75.99".

Yeah.

[Plague Sliver]

There are already hedge funds investing in rare coins and vintage cars, why not a mtg fund? Aside from the compliance costs, I don't think that much capital would be required.

Yeah that's what I immediately thought when reading the couple of posts above. It's definitely possible for a group to pool together more than $100K USD to group-invest, commodities-style. There's probably a system that can be worked out.

*twiddles fingers in pensive thought*

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yeah that's what I immediately thought when reading the couple of posts above. It's definitely possible for a group to pool together more than $100K USD to group-invest, commodities-style. There's probably a system that can be worked out.

*twiddles fingers in pensive thought*

Q: "Would you group-invest commodities-style with an average Magic player?"
A: "No, I wouldn't group-invest commodities-style with an average Magic player. 90 % of these people are not trustworthy and I wouldn't let them walk my dog, they'd return it played."

[PirateKing]

I only do work with people with BSG 9.5 graded dogs anyway.

[apple713]

Its simple. 100k -> beta volcanic island. Which is Bout 100. Its like 5% of market in none were destroyed

[Arsenal]

Just looked at my collection's mid-TCG value and I'm just astounded at how much these pieces of cardboard are worth. I'm honestly contemplating selling off a vast portion of my collection and just keep 1-2 Legacy decks and 1-2 Modern decks and call it a day. $17k+ is serious money and I'm looking to buy a house in the next 2 years...

[Megadeus]

If you are really serious, hold off until you need the money. Card prices only go up these days

[Arsenal]

If you are really serious, hold off until you need the money. Card prices only go up these days

That's what I'm thinking. When I find a house that I want to put money down on, I'll need to sell off my collection. I can piece it out on ebay, but is there a better method that will get me as close to mid-TCG returns as possible?

[Mr.C]

Yeah that's what I immediately thought when reading the couple of posts above. It's definitely possible for a group to pool together more than $100K USD to group-invest, commodities-style. There's probably a system that can be worked out.

*twiddles fingers in pensive thought*

It's definitely doable.

My extra money is tied up in my business right now, but if it wasn't, I'd be doing something like that. Unregulated market, so no legal repercussions about doing things that would get you fined and in jail if it were stocks.

And there's an easy supply of people foolish enough to buy into hype.

It's perfect; unfortunately, I don't have the cash right now.

[Megadeus]

That's what I'm thinking. When I find a house that I want to put money down on, I'll need to sell off my collection. I can piece it out on ebay, but is there a better method that will get me as close to mid-TCG returns as possible?

Not sure. I will admit to not being the savvy trader/seller that some are. My plan would consist of turning my whole collection into RL staples, then selling

[Esper3k]

Yeah the whole problem moving MTG cards (really anything that's not stock) is the faster you need to dump it, the more of a loss you're likely going to take.

As others have suggested, I'd hold onto cards (especially staples) until you really need to get rid of them. Legacy / Modern staples are especially fluid, so I wouldn't see you having too much difficulty moving them at market value.

[ramanujan]

The transaction costs and risks are not worth investing real money in cards. Sure, a few thousand is fun, but not 6 figures. The reasons are pretty obvious.

You give up at least 10% in transaction costs right away
You have counterfeit risk (both the risk of getting counterfeit cards and the risk of counterfeits flooding the market)
Risk of getting ripped
The bubble bursts risk (Like what happened to Baseball cards, comic books, an beenie babies, among others)
Inability to move product risk (or haircut your gains if you move to much too fast)
Reprint risk (It is still there)
Power creep risk
Metagame shifts
Ban hammer risks/format support issues (what if legacy is no longer supported)
Mtg looses a lot of popularity risk

You are free to make your own choices, but sinking a fair chunk of a healthy retirement simply for the purpose of financial gain seems foolish to me. It is always easy to look back in time at what did well (like dual lands) and act like it is easy. It is far more difficult to judge what will be tomorrow's big thing. Which of the following strategies is stronger?

You could jump on duals because everyone states with certainty that they are safe.
Buy Modern staples based on the assumption that they won't be reprinted enough to reduce prices.
Jump on vintage cards, vintage decks used to be way more expensive than legacy, perhaps we will see Vintage rise again like when Starcitygames had power 9 tournaments a few short years ago.
Invest in PSA graded 9/10 cards from Unlimited and early expansions. The print runs were tiny and the cards were almost always played because no one understood the fundamentals we all take for granted today?

Again, it is your choice. I would rather buy dividend stocks and sell covered calls on them than any of the above options.

Peace

[Mr.C]

The transaction costs and risks are not worth investing real money in cards. Sure, a few thousand is fun, but not 6 figures. The reasons are pretty obvious.

You give up at least 10% in transaction costs right away
You have counterfeit risk (both the risk of getting counterfeit cards and the risk of counterfeits flooding the market)
Risk of getting ripped
The bubble bursts risk (Like what happened to Baseball cards, comic books, an beenie babies, among others)
Inability to move product risk (or haircut your gains if you move to much too fast)
Reprint risk (It is still there)
Power creep risk
Metagame shifts
Ban hammer risks/format support issues (what if legacy is no longer supported)
Mtg looses a lot of popularity risk

You are free to make your own choices, but sinking a fair chunk of a healthy retirement simply for the purpose of financial gain seems foolish to me. It is always easy to look back in time at what did well (like dual lands) and act like it is easy. It is far more difficult to judge what will be tomorrow's big thing. Which of the following strategies is stronger?

You could jump on duals because everyone states with certainty that they are safe.
Buy Modern staples based on the assumption that they won't be reprinted enough to reduce prices.
Jump on vintage cards, vintage decks used to be way more expensive than legacy, perhaps we will see Vintage rise again like when Starcitygames had power 9 tournaments a few short years ago.
Invest in PSA graded 9/10 cards from Unlimited and early expansions. The print runs were tiny and the cards were almost always played because no one understood the fundamentals we all take for granted today?

Again, it is your choice. I would rather buy dividend stocks and sell covered calls on them than any of the above options.

Peace

Or through a combination of reddit posting, streaming videos and forum posts, hype up cards and make people buy.

I mean, have you checked Land Equilibrium and Invoke Prejudice lately, for example? There's no way in hell their 'prices' are what they are now due to real demand.

[mcfarland]

Looks like Remand is getting reprinted in the new Duel Deck.

Nothing earth-shattering, but $20 for an uncommon in Modern was getting a little ridiculous, so that's nice.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The transaction costs and risks are not worth investing real money in cards. Sure, a few thousand is fun, but not 6 figures. The reasons are pretty obvious.

You give up at least 10% in transaction costs right away
You have counterfeit risk (both the risk of getting counterfeit cards and the risk of counterfeits flooding the market)
Risk of getting ripped
The bubble bursts risk (Like what happened to Baseball cards, comic books, an beenie babies, among others)
Inability to move product risk (or haircut your gains if you move to much too fast)
Reprint risk (It is still there)
Power creep risk
Metagame shifts
Ban hammer risks/format support issues (what if legacy is no longer supported)
Mtg looses a lot of popularity risk

You are free to make your own choices, but sinking a fair chunk of a healthy retirement simply for the purpose of financial gain seems foolish to me. It is always easy to look back in time at what did well (like dual lands) and act like it is easy. It is far more difficult to judge what will be tomorrow's big thing. Which of the following strategies is stronger?

You could jump on duals because everyone states with certainty that they are safe.
Buy Modern staples based on the assumption that they won't be reprinted enough to reduce prices.
Jump on vintage cards, vintage decks used to be way more expensive than legacy, perhaps we will see Vintage rise again like when Starcitygames had power 9 tournaments a few short years ago.
Invest in PSA graded 9/10 cards from Unlimited and early expansions. The print runs were tiny and the cards were almost always played because no one understood the fundamentals we all take for granted today?

Again, it is your choice. I would rather buy dividend stocks and sell covered calls on them than any of the above options.

Peace
This.

@ Arsenal: What's better? Wait a year or two (so that the prices rise a bit) but risk bubble-burst and also sell cards in hurry? Or start selling now (without many unnecessary problems) and have the money available two years from now, although maybe a smaller sum than if you'd keep the cards until 2016?
I sold lots of my stuff, but I'm quite unsure if it was a good idea, maybe I should have waited a year or two, but well, then one may wait until grave...

[Esper3k]

For me, I get a lot of utility just owning cards to build almost any deck I want. Certainly, I trade / sell off my extra stuff (or if I pimp something out, dump the old stuff), but I derive much pleasure from owning the collection I have.

However, if that's not for you, and you're going to need the cash, your best bet is to probably slowly trim down.

[Dan Turner]

just picked up an extra play set of fetches and dual lands makes my third play set of each and I think a solid investment even if they reprint the fetch lands soon. Damn 8 years ago I got a full play set of dual lands when I came back after a 3 year retirement for under $800. In 8 years the price has shot up to close to over $1600 for a play set. Over 8 years I would have made more on the stock market with some good investments but when you figure int he extra play value I get out of the cards, I think they are a better investment of my spare resources.


here is another one for you my very first set of dual lands purchased during Alliances ran me $175 out the door from my lgs in Omaha, NE. Same time i purchased moxen at $50 each.

[JanoschEausH]

just picked up an extra play set of fetches and dual lands makes my third play set of each and I think a solid investment even if they reprint the fetch lands soon. Damn 8 years ago I got a full play set of dual lands when I came back after a 3 year retirement for under $800. In 8 years the price has shot up to close to over $1600 for a play set. Over 8 years I would have made more on the stock market with some good investments but when you figure int he extra play value I get out of the cards, I think they are a better investment of my spare resources.


here is another one for you my very first set of dual lands purchased during Alliances ran me $175 out the door from my lgs in Omaha, NE. Same time i purchased moxen at $50 each.

To be fair - you would have to count inflation. Which makes your $175 to be $261 as of todays worth (Moxen= $74.50 (1996)). This is still not much compared to todays prices.

[apple713]

just picked up an extra play set of fetches and dual lands makes my third play set of each and I think a solid investment even if they reprint the fetch lands soon. Damn 8 years ago I got a full play set of dual lands when I came back after a 3 year retirement for under $800. In 8 years the price has shot up to close to over $1600 for a play set. Over 8 years I would have made more on the stock market with some good investments but when you figure int he extra play value I get out of the cards, I think they are a better investment of my spare resources.


here is another one for you my very first set of dual lands purchased during Alliances ran me $175 out the door from my lgs in Omaha, NE. Same time i purchased moxen at $50 each.

Assume you double your money every 7 years in the market. Magic wins by a lot

[ramanujan]

I also remember buying Shivan Dragons for 15 bucks for revised. Things always look better when the results are cherry picked. It is very simple to look at the cards that have withstood the test of time. Mtg cards are constantly being created, who knows what cards will be the best in another 15 years.

Imagine a 1 cc ww creature that states something to the effect "land cards can only enter the battlefield from players hands"

I would literally jump for joy if that was printed. I have all the fetches and duals I will ever need but I miss when getting colored mana was more than a trivial thing and people didn't shuffle thier decks every other turn. At some point I should yell at most of you to get off my lawn.

[Zwei]

The transaction costs and risks are not worth investing real money in cards. Sure, a few thousand is fun, but not 6 figures. The reasons are pretty obvious.

You give up at least 10% in transaction costs right away
You have counterfeit risk (both the risk of getting counterfeit cards and the risk of counterfeits flooding the market)
Risk of getting ripped
The bubble bursts risk (Like what happened to Baseball cards, comic books, an beenie babies, among others)
Inability to move product risk (or haircut your gains if you move to much too fast)
Reprint risk (It is still there)
Power creep risk
Metagame shifts
Ban hammer risks/format support issues (what if legacy is no longer supported)
Mtg looses a lot of popularity risk

You are free to make your own choices, but sinking a fair chunk of a healthy retirement simply for the purpose of financial gain seems foolish to me. It is always easy to look back in time at what did well (like dual lands) and act like it is easy. It is far more difficult to judge what will be tomorrow's big thing. Which of the following strategies is stronger?

You could jump on duals because everyone states with certainty that they are safe.
Buy Modern staples based on the assumption that they won't be reprinted enough to reduce prices.
Jump on vintage cards, vintage decks used to be way more expensive than legacy, perhaps we will see Vintage rise again like when Starcitygames had power 9 tournaments a few short years ago.
Invest in PSA graded 9/10 cards from Unlimited and early expansions. The print runs were tiny and the cards were almost always played because no one understood the fundamentals we all take for granted today?

Again, it is your choice. I would rather buy dividend stocks and sell covered calls on them than any of the above options.

Peace

While this is a well thought out and intelligent post (and I mostly agree), I think you've simplified the matter FAR too much. It is true that the market is not frictionless and therefore transaction costs have to be taken into account, but on high ticket items you will usually have free shipping, so half the transaction costs aren't in the equation. Also, and even more importantly, is the fact that supply is small enough that one person would be able to influence the market price through buys/sells in a significant way. While there is a decent amount of supply, it seems like supply is outgrowing demand and therefore, every purchase should increase price and every sale decrease price, but that isn't exactly what we see. The market is slow to correct. Therefore, a quick sweep of all inventory will sharply decrease supply and increase price (cornering the market, if you will). I point to the last 2 months as proof of this. If you look, sellers for some of the more demanded items have dropped to only a handful and they all increased their prices. However, it probably took a day, or at least several hours, for these price increases to occur. Without a computerized trading system, it is up to the seller's vigilance to keep prices current. Once you've cornered the market, simply increase the price of the item as you see fit (I'm looking at you SCG) and then re-sell. At this point, do you really care about transaction prices? I wouldn't.

I think every risk you listed is spot on. If someone was to think through the entire process: from raising capital to buying to price changes to selling, etc. Then this would be a risk, but with a high upside. Someone with a portfolio of safe assets - Index Funds, CDs, Bonds, T-Bills - or someone who is younger and can take on more risk in their portfolio or even someone who just has a high risk tolerance may find this risk acceptable. You can also choose how you want to spread the risk: systematic vs. idiosyncratic. Although, based on my previous point we are mostly talking about both!

"You are free to make your own choices, but sinking a fair chunk of a healthy retirement simply for the purpose of financial gain seems foolish to me." This is the statement I agree with the least. As mentioned above, it is educated thinking, an individuals current and future needs, and that individuals tolerance for risk that should drive an investment. Also, isn't all investment for the purpose of financial gain?!?!? Even your proposed method of dividend-providing stocks with sell covered calls is an attempt to gain money, albeit in a super risk-averse way. You do realize that that particular financial strategy limits your upside, don't you? In fact, the entire reason it is a valid strategy is that you are taking a nearly guaranteed return over any potential growth in the stock.

OK, I don't mean to pick on you... like you said, it is a personal choice and you are probably just more risk-averse than I am, which is not a bad thing. However, I felt it was important to point out that there is a flip side to your argument; yes there is risk, a good deal of it, but also a chance for high reward.

Personally, even though I do have spare capital, and am not overly risk-averse, I would prefer to put my money in the market and get a more stable return. That being said, someone mentioned hedge funds... from my personal experience, they wouldn't touch this market, but those types of investors, who are actively seeking out a way to increase their portfolio's alpha, may be enticed by something like this. So, while you may not be able to raise capital in the conventional ways, getting a group of individual investors may be possible. Which, is sort of what a hedge fund is anyway. :-)

- Zwei

[ramanujan]

My statement ending in foolish should have specified Magic cards, sorry for that. I accept your opinion that you are on a different place in the risk/reward spectrum. That being said, I didn't specify the strike price of my covered calls. I think you just assumed it was Market value. I don't need to give up all potential upside, but I would cap it and get a healthy price for doing so.

I look at Mtg card investments as simply too risky and expensive to justify. There are, in my opinion, far better (Less expensive, more upside value) risky options out there. I can accept that you disagree with me on that point but it isn't a risk averse issue. Thank you for spending time to respond to my original post.

Peace

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Hello Zwei, thanks for your post! You've touched some very important and interesting aspects of (not only MtG-related) economics!

I think that there are trends or fundaments, or call it as you wish, that anyone interested in Magic cannot miss. The ever increasing prices of good/RL stuff, and the occasional spike of a random fringe card when new tools are printed, the slow loss of value for most of the cards as they're outdone by power creep, etc. Standard rotation aside (as this is a very special subject) and also reprints aside, the market is quite predictable, at least if you concentrate on the "safe" part of "MtG portfolio", P9, duals, fetches, RL power cards, etc.; in short, staples.

For the sake of simplicity, I wouldn't count in inflation, moreover when it doesn't mean that much of a difference, see above for the "$50 Alliances Mox" example. What I find really interesting (and I always tear my hair when I remember what silly stuff I bought/done on the high school, esp. when I listened to my stupid friends and buddies, did not hoarded cards like crazy and instead "pimped" my computers like that the output matters in three years), is how the prices of good stuff went always and only up, and esp. speaking of several items (like Tabernacle, Moat, Nether Void, Karakas... why always the Legends' stuff?) they are really crazy. I remeber Tabernacle for roughly 800 crowns (more than 5k today) and I bought my very first Karakas (though Italian one) for 30 CZK back in 1997 (it solds for about 1800 crowns today). Karakas' price went up some sixty, that's amazing, even if we think about a period of seventeen years! And the duals (going from 300 to 1500-3000 crowns), fetches (150 to 750-1500), and esp. FoW/LED (quite the same as Karakas) are also pretty silly. (Or reasonable, depends on point of view.)

Karakas sidenote: Fact is that for the most part of this period, it was 3 dollars card and it went up in several steps (DnT, Clique, Emmy/Griselbrand); I remember something like 200 CZK in 2006/7, then it jumped to 800/900 crowns (Clique?) where it plateaued for maybe a whole 2010, than it once again went up to cca 1400 crowns and spiked to the 2000 crowns of today just few months (no longer than half a year) ago. Quite an interesting progress for a 30 CZK item. And it's all about playability, not collectibility. I don't think that the recent thirst for Ještěd (http://regiony.ic.cz/clanky/liberec/jested_v.jpg) is about anything else than players wanting their answer to legends, it definitely isn't about collectors wanting to have a nice card in their safes. Those bought them years ago.

I'm not sure if $ 100k are that small money to start business without actually starting business.I mena: you need a very, very special person (that has enough money spend them on this risk, but also "too few" money to take this risk at all) with a good self control, good knowledge of what's going on in MtG, maybe some kind of insider's info, lots of free time to manage the purchases, etc., but a person that's still unwilling to make a business out of his/her sideline. You may easily get into legal trouble once you cross some threshold. I'm not even sure how exactly it works here, but I can definitely see that 2 millions crown spent on a collectible might get police/tax office interested, esp. with the recent affairs of local politics spending horrid amount of cash on brilliants, Gucci bags and other expensive stuff that definitely wasn't (bought with the money gained as) bribes.

It's easier said than done (the casual cornering of market in a "guy hacking into Pentagon" style). If I had to waste $ 100k on this (even spread over a period of one or two years), I really can't imagine doing this without another $ 500k-1000k "pillow" to absorb a possible loss, to finance the rest of my life, etc.; simpy put: only a guy with (at least) million dollars may waste 100k on cardboard without blink of an eye.

I've done something similar (although on a much much smaller level) when I returned back to game in 2005/6, but I still had some money in reserve; moreover purchasing shocks, fetches, duals and staples (above that: only for a personal use) can't be compared to this mostrous racket of "I'll buy all blooh duals on teh interweb". This cannot be done without turning this into a full-time job (or even business project) and then we're on a really different territory. Does SCG do this? I can't tell. I simply can't tell, I don't see in their heads and althought the price jumps are crazy, so are the MtG players and it's quite possible that it's only their fault. Look, we're speaking of first world troubles, and once we discuss things like Gucci bags and Tarmogoyfs, people are willing to spend their money in really strange ways.

[Arsenal]

So is ebay still the best way to get mid-TCG returns? All of the major online retailers I've looked at offer 50-60% cash mid-TCG value.

[TheArchitect]

So is ebay still the best way to get mid-TCG returns? All of the major online retailers I've looked at offer 50-60% cash mid-TCG value.

You won't ever get mid tcgplayer prices, but eBay is the closest you'll get. After fees and shipping you usually get about 75-90% of tcg player low. Which is better than the 50-60% most stores would give in cash for a trade in.

[Zwei]

My statement ending in foolish should have specified Magic cards, sorry for that. I accept your opinion that you are on a different place in the risk/reward spectrum. That being said, I didn't specify the strike price of my covered calls. I think you just assumed it was Market value. I don't need to give up all potential upside, but I would cap it and get a healthy price for doing so.

I look at Mtg card investments as simply too risky and expensive to justify. There are, in my opinion, far better (Less expensive, more upside value) risky options out there. I can accept that you disagree with me on that point but it isn't a risk averse issue. Thank you for spending time to respond to my original post.

Peace

You're right, I did assume MV (actually slightly above, but close enough)... my mistake. In that case, you probably aren't much different than me in terms of risk aversion; I even stated that I prefer normal market returns. I wonder about less expensive, higher upside investments though. The way prices trend in magic does lead to some easy money for savvy people. For instance, *. tl;dr I made money investing in cards on a small scale. Off the top of my head, I'm coming up with very little that could be done with an average person's savings that is much different (risk aversion aside). Oh well, I'm okay with agreeing to disagree on this one. Thanks for your response as well!

* near the end of the Innistrad block I set $300 aside and bought every enemy colored Innistrad dual land (Woodland Cemetery, et al.) that was selling for under $4. Obviously this isn't enough money to buy EVERY card, but I bought out all of the cheapest sellers and given that the cards were newly printed basically they were all LP to NM quality. This was a speculation on the next block being Return to Ravnica and the use of shocklands. Within 3 months, every card that I had purchased went up 400-500%. That ROI is insane!! I traded most of my cards for modern and legacy staples (the main reason I can now play in those formats!) and then sold off the rest for $250. In essence, I spent $50 for about $1200 in cards. Now, of course there was a risk that shocklands would not be reprinted, but then the price stays the same for the Innistrad lands and I take a small hit on transaction costs probably around $30-$50.


Hello Zwei, thanks for your post! You've touched some very important and interesting aspects of (not only MtG-related) economics!

Hi. Glad you appreciated it!

- Zwei

[humppa]

You won't ever get mid tcgplayer prices, but eBay is the closest you'll get. After fees and shipping you usually get about 75-90% of tcg player low. Which is better than the 50-60% most stores would give in cash for a trade in.

How much costs your time? I would prefer sell everything to a shop in 1 hour (including travelling), than working with ebay and postoffice next two months..

[JACO]

I know that you seem to have a lot of experience with #mtgfinance but if things are basically as easy as you make them sound, you should have no problem finding the desired 100k$ in venture capital if you promise such an outstanding ROI.Basically as soon as I typed that, hit submit, and then reviewed my message, I immediately began to give it more serious thought. The trajectory/fluctuation of prices right now is really remarkable, and there's little incentive to not do this again as a part time business, especially when compared to the potential ROI compared to a number of my other 'safe' investments with banks (barely treading water after inflation). I am tossing around some ideas for making this a reality right now. The only thing that has held me back thus far is the fact that I don't have that much fully liquid capital to risk (yet), and the fact that I don't enjoy the grind of it all anymore. In 2002-2004 era I loved it, because all of my rent, living, and entertainment expenses were paid directly from my PayPal account gains, while my day job checks went straight into my savings account, which was awesome and enabled me to buy my first house at quite a young age. Bottom line, I'm about 75% sure I'm going to do this as of right now. I'll be sure to post again in here if/when we start rolling.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

How much costs your time? I would prefer sell everything to a shop in 1 hour (including travelling), than working with ebay and postoffice next two months..

Depends. Check what Rytíř gives you, sometimes it's not even funny.

I'd throw part of the collection on MKM (esp. pimp stuff, chase rares, Power, duals/fetches and such), then I'd bring the boxes of crap to shop. Out of the one thousand cards there's like 50 that make no sense to bring to shop (you won't be selling a dual for 1300 crowns if you may get about two thousand crowns instead) and it doesn't take that much work to sort, scan and upload thost fifty.
Post office? Well, unless you're unlucky bastard like I am (and even I lost just the untracked shipments), you should be fine. Sadly, each lost envelope unmakes the profit to-be-gained (as you're going to waste time and energy with compliances, etc.)
There are also bank transfer fees and such, so basically unless we're speaking about a real difference, there's no real difference, if you know what I mean... :tongue: I guess that comparing MKM and brick and mortar shop, you need to have a really significat difference in price (lets say you need to get at least +30% from MKM compared to shop) to turn it into a real profit: time, fees, packing, it all costs money.
I wouldn't use MKM, but as I wanted some cards that are otherwise unobtainable (and simultaneously I was unwilling to feed too much money to Rytíř/Najáda via repurchases), I've decided to try the service. It has very little meaning for a person that wishes to quit (you won't be trading, just selling), but if anybody's goal is to unload nine tenth of his collection and also get a few pimp/jap/mising pieces here and there, MKM is quite solid tool for this. (Except if you're sucker for new toys like I am and you unload Trop and waste the money gained to build a 1996 Erhnamgeddon in case my zombified friends wake up from the hibernation...)

[Blakroc]

Why did Bloodghast suddenly double?

[Barook]

Why did Bloodghast suddenly double?
Market manipulation? It doesn't match up with the MODO market:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Zendikar/Bloodghast

[Koby]

Why did Bloodghast suddenly double?

Because every John, Dick, & Sally thinks they are big-shot MTG speculators that is entitled to earn a genuine profit on each transaction they engage in. There are far too many sheep in the #MTGFinance game, and it only takes one wolf to scare them into buying.

A more clinical look at the phenomenon reveals that the MTG singles market is far too small to have meaningful economic conclusion drawn. Supply is low, demand is high and steady; therefore prices will shoot up quickly. Price memory and finding a "greater fool" to sell to means prices rarely fall. The market is not as liquid as some think it is.

[kingsey]

Because every John, Dick, & Sally thinks they are big-shot MTG speculators that is entitled to earn a genuine profit on each transaction they engage in. There are far too many sheep in the #MTGFinance game, and it only takes one wolf to scare them into buying.

A more clinical look at the phenomenon reveals that the MTG singles market is far too small to have meaningful economic conclusion drawn. Supply is low, demand is high and steady; therefore prices will shoot up quickly. Price memory and finding a "greater fool" to sell to means prices rarely fall. The market is not as liquid as some think it is.


That is 100% correct. Well worded dude.

[death]

Meanwhile, grindstone is still $20? Way underpriced, it peaked at $35 when Painter's Servant got printed (2008).

[mini1337s]

Meanwhile, grindstone is still $20? Way underpriced, it peaked at $35 when Painter's Servant got printed (2008).
Ssshhhhh, still recovering from a Lotus purchase :)

[apple713]

Meanwhile, grindstone is still $20? Way underpriced, it peaked at $35 when Painter's Servant got printed (2008).

Just because 1 person got lucky with it shouldnt mean its value shoots up, eapecially since there are tons of emrakuls floating around main deck.

[Lt. Quattro]

Just because 1 person got lucky with it shouldnt mean its value shoots up, eapecially since there are tons of emrakuls floating around main deck.

Not to mention that it's pretty much tied to the price of imperial recruiter and both these cards are only used in this deck.

[Whippoorwill]

Just because 1 person got lucky with it shouldnt mean its value shoots up, eapecially since there are tons of emrakuls floating around main deck.

Modern would like to have a word with you. Check the price of some cards from the PT that just happened.

(Prices listed are TCG Mid)
Amulet of Vigor - $4.92
Porphyry Nodes - $5.42

Pretty sure both were dollar rares prior to the PT and weren't in many decks at the PT.

[JPoJohnson]

Modern would like to have a word with you. Check the price of some cards from the PT that just happened.

(Prices listed are TCG Mid)
Amulet of Vigor - $4.92
Porphyry Nodes - $5.42

Pretty sure both were dollar rares prior to the PT and weren't in many decks at the PT.

Amulet of Vigor was already $3 because it's somewhat popular in several jank casual brews. Porphryr indeed was worthless though since I've picked up several for $0.50. Teferi shot from $8-$40 overnight

[ESG]

There are far too many sheep in the #MTGFinance game, and it only takes one wolf to scare them into buying.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-y1N29vH2Y

[Justin]

ESG, the vid is just too awesome! :laugh: Also, I can't recommend Wolf of Wall Street enough to people.

[Scott]

This MaRo response (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/78151866349/has-adding-more-cards-to-the-reserved-list-ever-been) threatened to raise one of my eyebrows. One might think he's talking about past decisions, but that's iffy, as cards have been both added and removed in the past. Could always just be a glib or forgetful response.

uroborus-void asked: Has adding more cards to the reserved list ever been considered?

Adding? No.

[Barook]

This MaRo response (http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/78151866349/has-adding-more-cards-to-the-reserved-list-ever-been) threatened to raise one of my eyebrows. One might think he's talking about past decisions, but that's iffy, as cards have been both added and removed in the past. Could always just be a glib or forgetful response.

uroborus-void asked: Has adding more cards to the reserved list ever been considered?

Adding? No.
That says nothing. The RL is a mistake, that's why they abandoned with MMQ.

They can consider taking cards from the RL, but that doesn't change their stupid "bla bla promise" mantra.

[apple713]

That says nothing. The RL is a mistake, that's why they abandoned with MMQ.

They can consider taking cards from the RL, but that doesn't change their stupid "bla bla promise" mantra.

if they want they could just wait till power creep gets strong enough they could print different versions that are effectively the same possibly stronger.

[Lord Seth]

if they want they could just wait till power creep gets strong enough they could print different versions that are effectively the same possibly stronger.
What card on the Reserved List that sees any play in Legacy is in any danger of being overtaken thanks to power creep? Because I sure don't see any.

[Megadeus]

Everyone excited about 200 dollar goyfs?

[allek]

Everyone excited about 200 dollar goyfs?

From what I've seen on other forums, this has mostly to do with SCG organizing the modern GP next week. Demand will be at an all-time high and they adjust their price accordingly which is fine.
It's likely to come down afterwards since the UR decks are more likely to win but given time, I'm pretty sure goyf will creep up slowly and eventually get to $200 on it's own unless he's reprinted again.

[nodahero]

Are you refereing to the Blue Moon deck?

I really like the deck, but I don't think it has any lasting power. The power of that deck at the pro-tour was the lack of knowledge everyone had about it. Now alot of the openings will tip people off to what they may be seeing and SHOULD fetch accordingly.

[Guie]

That says nothing. The RL is a mistake, that's why they abandoned with MMQ.

They can consider taking cards from the RL, but that doesn't change their stupid "bla bla promise" mantra.

(This is just my opinion based on what I have read the past 6 months after 10 years away and could be completely wrong. Please correct me if I am :smile:)

WotC gets off easy when players complain to them about the Reserve List. It was a mistake. It is also a scapegoat. WotC would need to start printing the cards they can print before I give them a pass and view the RL as being an issue.

[Barook]

WotC gets off easy when players complain to them about the Reserve List. It was a mistake. It is also a scapegoat. WotC would need to start printing the cards they can print before I give them a pass and view the RL as being an issue.
They could easily reprint stuff like Wasteland, FoW, Onslaught fetches, etc, but they simply choose not to - for business reasons, because they don't care or because they just like being a bunch of digs.

Fun fact: All cards of D&T are completely reprintable, Modern could have a Legacy level D&T in theory (aside from SFM and Jitte being banned right now).

@allek: I doubt Goyf is going to decrease much in price due to price memory and being a staple. Plus, some people see it as kind of investment.

If Wizards is smart, they put it into one of those 75$ Modern precon decks and print the everliving shit out of it. Demand is through the roof anyway and at worst, Goyf would go back to being a 75$ card if they keep the supply high enough.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

They could easily reprint stuff like Wasteland, FoW, Onslaught fetches, etc, but they simply choose not to - for business reasons, because they don't care or because they just like being a bunch of digs.

Add Karakas.
I'd be really interested to see in their heads and know why they don't reprint those cards. Without them, Legacy growth is capped.

[Davran]

Add Karakas.
I'd be really interested to see in their heads and know why they don't reprint those cards. Without them, Legacy growth is capped.

Karakas is a tough one. They could stick it in standard and it probably would do much other than sell packs...but then they risk the wrath of the "collector" crowd that's pissed about the "devaluing" of their "investments". That also opens it up for modern play...which is neither here-nor-there. If it does something to the format, they've demonstrated they're willing to ban it...so whatever.

They could avoid the headache and stick it in the Commander product...except Karakas is banned in that format, so it's a no go. That pretty much leaves other supplemental products like the dual deck series and planechase style product. Unfortunately, those products are generally geared toward the more "casual" crowd, and I'm not sure Karakas is a "casual" kind of card.

What they should consider doing is something like a legacy "event deck". Print a shitty version of D&T for an MSRP of $75 or whatever and stick a Rishadan Port or a Karakas in there. Most of the other cards are commons/uncommons anyway. Of course you'd never find it anywhere for $75...unless they used the continual print run strategy they're using for the commander decks. Future products could be something like budget-fish with a Force and a couple Daze (it is a common after all), maybe stick a Wasteland in there for good measure.

[nedleeds]

http://i.tcgplayer.com/46952.jpg

[prateta]

http://i.tcgplayer.com/46952.jpg

Yeah this is interesting. I blame stupid modern hype and speculators. Classic buyout. Such a bad card lol.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

snip.

Yep.

I'm afraid WotC definitely lost any possibility how to do anything about the prices, even if they'd care at first, which I doubt.
As they've made the RL nonsense back in 1990's and then further cemented the whole thing, I can't see them starting a massive prints of staples now when they are far above 50 bucks for a crap like City of Traitors. (Not even speaking about duals and Vintage stuff.)

[Shawon]

Yeah this is interesting. I blame stupid modern hype and speculators. Classic buyout. Such a bad card lol.

It's not legal in Modern. But damn, that is probably the craziest and nonsensical spike I've ever seen.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

You guys don't really know much about the secondary market for cards, huh?

To begin with, Tarmogoyf isn't really a $60 card currently, so I don't know where you're getting your information from. Just because an online store like SCG might charge that much for it doesn't mean that is the price of the card. The average or 'street' price is closer to $40-44 dollars right now.

Regarding the original poster's question, Tarmogoyf will likely stay around $40 even after the current Extended PTQ season, and will stay at that price point (give or take a couple of bucks) until it rotates out of Extended for good (October 2013). Once that happens it will likely drop down to $15-20 max (unless the US currency is extremely devalued in the next 4 years, in which case you'll likely have greater problems than finding cheap Tarmogoyfs).
Looks like something ugly happened to dollar.

[Koby]

Looks like something ugly happened to dollar.

More aptly, Modern format happened and breathed new life into Tarmogoyf, extending it's "$40" premium and increasing it even higher.

Nice cherry picking btw.

[Barook]

It's not legal in Modern. But damn, that is probably the craziest and nonsensical spike I've ever seen.
- Crimea gets invaded by the Russians
- Strangehold suddenly spikes in price on the very same day for no particular reason

Coincidence? I think not. Better buy Rocket Launchers right now. #mtgfinance

[Phelix]

Im buying all the Uncle Istvan!

[Amon Amarth]

It's not legal in Modern. But damn, that is probably the craziest and nonsensical spike I've ever seen.

Stranglehold is probably the best red card in EDH and it's an asymmetrical effect that can fit into any deck. So, there's that. I bought a few a couple weeks back and there just weren't that many left online and they were all still 5 dollars like they had been for nearly 3 years. It seems like the market adjusted. No one is going to speculate on cards solely playable in EDH. (Probably.)

[allek]

[...] No one is going to speculate on cards solely playable in EDH. (Probably.)

Oh yes they will, EDH specs are probably the most volatile. Who would have thought that utter crap like Avacyn, Angel of Hope would cost more than Griselbrand (from the same set)?

[TsumiBand]

Oh yes they will, EDH specs are probably the most volatile. Who would have thought that utter crap like Avacyn, Angel of Hope would cost more than Griselbrand (from the same set)?

Precisely.

Competitive players operate on this idea that their percentage of the population creates enough demand to claim responsibility for the bulk of the price-setting. Maybe they do most of the innovation, maaaybe? Who knows where ideas come from. But the minute a card breaks, of course everyone wants it. If only with the wrong motivation... "God if I just had a playset of Chastise, those fuckers at FNM would never question my fighting stance...!"

sent from phone, don't be a dick

[Megadeus]

Sale Price (SCG)
Arid Mesa = 60 ~~ 1 in Stock
Marsh Flats = 60 ~~ Out of Stock
Misty Rainforest = 100 ~~ Out of Stock
Scalding Tarn = 100 ~~ Out of Stock
Verdant Catacombs = 60 ~~ 38 in Stock

*sigh*

SCG

Buylist Values
Arid Mesa = 40
Marsh Flats = 40
Misty Rainforest = 70
Scalding Tarn = 70
Verdant Catacombs = 40

Foil Buylist

(f) Arid Mesa = 60
(f) Marsh Flats = 60
(f) Misty Rainforest = 100
(f) Scalding Tarn = 100
(f) Verdant Catacombs = 80

[Amon Amarth]

Oh yes they will, EDH specs are probably the most volatile. Who would have thought that utter crap like Avacyn, Angel of Hope would cost more than Griselbrand (from the same set)?

Uh, no one is speculating on Avacyn and not just because it's stupid to speculate on such an expensive card. You seem to be confusing "casual (not just EDH) players and collectors love these types of cards" with "I'm going to purposefully buyout a card because if I do so it will rise in price/is severely undervalued/etc.". The former is basic basic supply and demand where the latter is speculation. EDH cards aren't really volatile in the way that the card prices are jumping all the time but are mostly just due to market correction. I wouldn't be surprised if EDH is the fastest growing format because it's very fun and very easy to get into. If everyone needs a Tooth and Nail for their green decks and Demonic Tutor for their black decks, there just aren't enough to go around at the prices they're listed at which is why a lot of older cards playable in these formats go up. No nefarious schemes needed.

[anonymos]

Sale Price (SCG)
Arid Mesa = 60 ~~ 1 in Stock
Marsh Flats = 60 ~~ Out of Stock
Misty Rainforest = 100 ~~ Out of Stock
Scalding Tarn = 100 ~~ Out of Stock
Verdant Catacombs = 60 ~~ 38 in Stock

*sigh*

SCG

Buylist Values
Arid Mesa = 40
Marsh Flats = 40
Misty Rainforest = 70
Scalding Tarn = 70
Verdant Catacombs = 40

Foil Buylist

(f) Arid Mesa = 60
(f) Marsh Flats = 60
(f) Misty Rainforest = 100
(f) Scalding Tarn = 100
(f) Verdant Catacombs = 80

their stock is wiped because it's all at the GP site or packed to move to the GP site. They can charge notably higher to people picking up singles last minute. Their buy prices will possibly drop back down again after as well. They're aggressively buying the cards at the GP. The buylist price change ahead of time is so that people who are considering goign to the event can plan out how much they're selling ahead of time and possibly pick up some extra copies locally to turn into cash at the event.

Yes, the prices went up AGAIN. We just hit back to back PT and GP's for modern.

[Lord Seth]

Looks like something ugly happened to dollar.
To be fair, the two big factors that pumped up Tarmogoyf's price couldn't have been known by someone in 2009. Namely:
1) The fact Legacy would get a lot more popular.
2) The fact Modern would replace Extended, ensuring that Tarmogoyf would not rotate out.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

To be fair, the two big factors that pumped up Tarmogoyf's price couldn't have been known by someone in 2009. Namely:
1) The fact Legacy would get a lot more popular.
2) The fact Modern would replace Extended, ensuring that Tarmogoyf would not rotate out.

Yep. Of course! But it still says a lot about the reliability of all those prophecies.

Is there chance Legacy will crumble/deteriorate similarly to Vintage? Maybe not in a year, but what about in five years? Or ten?
May Goyf/SnT/DRS/JTMS/randomstapleofchoice become banned? Surely not? Idk...
What if flood of HQ forgeries destabilizes market?
Is it possible that EU goverment bans Magic from schools and forbids tournaments?
Will or will not US stop their pressure towards a WW3 which would be the end of all sanctioned Magic, if not of all the humanity as we know it?

[Phelix]

What if the world ends

I guess we will bring Shandalar with us to Mars?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I guess we will bring Shandalar with us to Mars?

This will have disastrous impact on price of MWS duals.

[Phelix]

Will be no problem, i just pay you in bitcoin!

[Moosedog]

How do people know about set release sizes ? A card will jump in price and someone says o that set was a limited release . Is this something wizards tells people ? I understand why imperial seal is so expensive b/c it was such a limited set release but relative to what ? For example is Urza’s legacy 5x the set release of portal three kingdoms, and invasion is 10x and the newer sets are even more ?

[phonics]

How do people know about set release sizes ? A card will jump in price and someone says o that set was a limited release . Is this something wizards tells people ? I understand why imperial seal is so expensive b/c it was such a limited set release but relative to what ? For example is Urza’s legacy 5x the set release of portal three kingdoms, and invasion is 10x and the newer sets are even more ?

Outside of the first couple sets I dont think they release the print runs, but in general the portal sets are more limited because they were printed specifically as a set for beginners to play, three kingdoms even more so because it catered more to the asian market. For regular sets, generally the first set is drafted during the whole block, whereas the second and third sets can only be drafted once they are released, so less are opened (since you draft 3x of first set, then a combo of first set and second set like 1 2 1, then 1 2 3) per draft and the later sets have less time as draftable sets. So generally the last set of a block is opened the least and the first set is opened the most, with supply not really being an issue outside of freak sets like worldwake.

[Koby]

How do people know about set release sizes ? A card will jump in price and someone says o that set was a limited release . Is this something wizards tells people ? I understand why imperial seal is so expensive b/c it was such a limited set release but relative to what ? For example is Urza’s legacy 5x the set release of portal three kingdoms, and invasion is 10x and the newer sets are even more ?

This used to be published, but was discontinued around 4th Edition. You can reference this at www.crytsalkeep.com. We guesstimate these values by how larger the MTG playing population has gotten, how long the set is on sale, and the popularity of the set while in print.

E.G., Modern Masters had a singular limited GP tournament, in which 4400 players opened up 6 boosters each. That's at least 1,100 boxes of Modern Masters; and not including booster drafts from Day 2, or the extra side events.

On a side note, holy shit Zendikar fetchlands are worth infinite. I'm half way tempted to sell my spare copies that I picked up during Zen block for my Vintage deck. It's hard to pass up on selling $70 fetchlands.

[sdematt]

And I thought selling my extras at 50's during the last spike was nuts.

The main problem even if people are wanting these fetchlands to be reprinted is that it'll take 1-2 years for them to actually get out into the market, which doesn't help the price increases now.

-Matt

[Barook]

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Shadowmoor/Runed+Halo

What's the cause for this price increase, especially in Paper?

[Arsenal]

So, the Modern event deck is supposed to have Elspeth 1.0 (confirmed), Hero of Bladehold (confirmed) and Marsh Flats (unconfirmed, but very likely). Thoughts?

[Phoenix Ignition]

I know there's a mono white enchantments deck in Modern that uses 4 Runed Halo in the main and was recently popularized by one of those fad streamers everyone religiously follows. The deck's bad, but any chance at speculation and people will buy out all the cards everywhere. Or maybe it's TNN hate? Dunno what Legacy deck would want those for that though.

[Que]

I know there's a mono white enchantments deck in Modern that uses 4 Runed Halo in the main and was recently popularized by one of those fad streamers everyone religiously follows. The deck's bad, but any chance at speculation and people will buy out all the cards everywhere. Or maybe it's TNN hate? Dunno what Legacy deck would want those for that though.

Enchantress? Good against Tendrils. idk. xD

[Barook]

I know there's a mono white enchantments deck in Modern that uses 4 Runed Halo in the main and was recently popularized by one of those fad streamers everyone religiously follows. The deck's bad, but any chance at speculation and people will buy out all the cards everywhere. Or maybe it's TNN hate? Dunno what Legacy deck would want those for that though.
I played said deck for a few games and then sold the cards for profit. :laugh:

But that's why I'm wondering - the deck sucks, but why does Runed Halo keep raising?

[Megadeus]

So, the Modern event deck is supposed to have Elspeth 1.0 (confirmed), Hero of Bladehold (confirmed) and Marsh Flats (unconfirmed, but very likely). Thoughts?

I called BW Tokens months back

[Arsenal]

Apparently it'll be mainly white w/ a black splash for removal only, that's why people are thinking a Marsh Flats (or two!) will be included.

[Barook]

Apparently it'll be mainly white w/ a black splash for removal only, that's why people are thinking a Marsh Flats (or two!) will be included.
For a price of a minimum of 75$, it should contain some serious value, otherwise, it's going to sell like crap.

[Megadeus]

Elspeth, Marsh Flats, Godless Shrine, maybe isolated Chapel playset? Also the random token cards arent quarters. Freaking spectral procession is like 2 bucks and such.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

Except that's what we thought about with the last event deck. I also don't think they'll reprint just one fetchland and leave the others behind.

[Barook]

Sweet fucking Jesus, 4300 players in GP Richmond - whatever comes out on top of this is going to see a massive price spike.

[jandax]

Nevermind the 40+ players at X-2 with no shot at top 8

[Lord Seth]

Nevermind the 40+ players at X-2 with no shot at top 8
They do still get Pro Tour invites though!

... I think? Didn't anyone who was X-2 get an invite if a huge number of people showed up?

[Megadeus]

They do still get Pro Tour invites though!

... I think? Didn't anyone who was X-2 get an invite if a huge number of people showed up?

I believe you are right

[Einherjer]

Sweet fucking Jesus, 4300 players in GP Richmond - whatever comes out on top of this is going to see a massive price spike.

That's why I bought a new Moderndeck last week :D

Greetings

[Megadeus]

Everytime I want to play modern I always want to play cards that are in legacy and get discouraged because some cards aren't legal :/

Though I have been brewing 5c Tezzeret that seems fun.

[Barook]

5 Pod decks in the Top 8 of GP Richmond - looks like Wizards is going to swing the banhammer again soon.

[FTW]

5 Pod decks in the Top 8 of GP Richmond - looks like Wizards is going to swing the banhammer again soon.

At that point they might as well ban Misty Rainforest too.

[Barook]

At that point they might as well ban Misty Rainforest too.
To be fair, only two of those decks actually can fetch Islands. It's mainly played as Forest fetchland.

[apple713]

5 Pod decks in the Top 8 of GP Richmond - looks like Wizards is going to swing the banhammer again soon.

at meleria or pod?

[Barook]

at meleria or pod?
At Pod, obviously, since it's a tutor - and Modern isn't allowed to have nice things.

[Lord Seth]

at meleria or pod?
Melira isn't getting banned. Even if they wanted to only ban something from Melira Pod (leaving Kiki Pod unscathed), the far more likely target would be Chord of Calling.

[Esper3k]

Melira isn't getting banned. Even if they wanted to only ban something from Melira Pod (leaving Kiki Pod unscathed), the far more likely target would be Chord of Calling.

The Kiki Pod deck that won also ran Chord of Calling...

Either Chord or Pod will get banned, I think, although Pod getting banned nerfs only the Pod decks whereas Chord could conceivably still be played in other decks (until it's deemed too powerful and banned too).

[Barook]

The Kiki Pod deck that won also ran Chord of Calling...

Either Chord or Pod will get banned, I think, although Pod getting banned nerfs only the Pod decks whereas Chord could conceivably still be played in other decks (until it's deemed too powerful and banned too).
It probably comes down to one of these two, but neither Chord nor Pod are ran in any other deck currently.

[apple713]

It probably comes down to one of these two, but neither Chord nor Pod are ran in any other deck currently.

then it's pod that gets the axe because its the engine like survival was.

[Esper3k]

It probably comes down to one of these two, but neither Chord nor Pod are ran in any other deck currently.

I think it comes down to what Wizards wants to do with the deck. If they want to just nerf it and keep it somewhat playable, then they can ban Chord. If they want to just kill it dead, then Pod gets the axe.

[Arsenal]

I honestly don't think Wizards will touch anything in Pod. I do think that Affinity and Pod will see a crazy price jump like Twin saw after PT Valencia.

[prateta]

Check the price of Rishadan Port. TCG Mid $120 now, what the fuck. The prices are going mental for the last few months, time to cry for reprints at WoTC headquarters.

[Tylert]

Check the price of Rishadan Port. TCG Mid $120 now, what the fuck. The prices are going mental for the last few months, time to cry for reprints at WoTC headquarters.

500% in 4 years... I made a nice investement when I decided i wanted to play D&T in 2010 :p
People are starting to understand how strong is the card, even in Legacy.
However, that's just when D&T is somehow hated out of the format because of TNN hate :p

[Barook]

500% in 4 years... I made a nice investement when I decided i wanted to play D&T in 2010 :p
People are starting to understand how strong is the card, even in Legacy.
However, that's just when D&T is somehow hated out of the format because of TNN hate :p
Even investing in February when it was still 75$ would have been profitable:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Mercadian+Masques/Rishadan+Port

And I can't imagine that a flood of new Lands players is responsible for that.

[Megadeus]

To be fair, lands has gotten more popular. I'm just waiting on Mox Diamonds to go up. Considering it is a RL card that is fairly strong. Any day now.

[JPoJohnson]

At Pod, obviously, since it's a tutor - and Modern isn't allowed to have nice things.

This is why you play Legacy: Because you like nice things.

[Madmankevinx]

Volcanics are now $250 NM. Damnation is $50. I'm freaking out! Aaahhhh what's next!?

[Barook]

Volcanics are now $250 NM. Damnation is $50. I'm freaking out! Aaahhhh what's next!?
To be perfectly honest, at the end of the year, blue duals within 350-500$ price range is what I expect. Since profit margins get smaller percentage-wise the higher the price gets, the more does the price increase accelerate.

[Megadeus]

Insane. Holding my bayous. Probably 200 by years end

[Occam]

Doesn't affect most, but textless foil cradles are 10+k and foil cities are allegedly 15k. Getting stupid.

[Serbitar]

I think its pretty hilarious that Arid Mesa is worth as much as Plateau.

[swoop]

did anyone recieved already their chinese copy cards? hows the quality?

[Phelix]

did anyone recieved already their chinese copy cards? hows the quality?


sounds a Little like you thought it a good idea to create incentive, by sending them Money?

[Blakroc]

I think its pretty hilarious that Arid Mesa is worth more than Plateau.
Fixed.

[Mr.C]

Doesn't affect most, but textless foil cradles are 10+k and foil cities are allegedly 15k. Getting stupid.

Getting close to the cash out point? :p

[Megadeus]

Everytime I see a post in here i cringe in expectation of being floored by some insane price jump

[Lt. Quattro]

Everytime I see a post in here i cringe in expectation of being floored by some insane price jump

near mint wasteland on tcg player is $99.99

[Megadeus]

near mint wasteland on tcg player is $99.99

Still Glad I never traded my Wastes. Even if one is damaged.

[Dan Turner]

sad thing is, my trade binder is out performing my 401k. Just put a minty underground sea in it at $175 in trade about a month ago and its already at $220-$230. In the same time period my primary fund I am invested in went from $32 a share to $33.50 a share. Scared to look up fetches now that they are overtaking some of the dual lands. I am sitting an a spare playset think I may have to move it soon.

[nedleeds]

Everytime I see a post in here i cringe in expectation of being floored by some insane price jump

Mox Opal is $55 TCG low ...

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I'm dumping all my zen fetches for duals right now. They are stupidly high right now.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Shit. This is insane.

[Megadeus]

Mox Opal is $55 TCG low ...

Luckily this is a card that I never will care to own

[Kage]

Look up Serum Visions or Celestial Colonnade <yuck>

So much for Modern being the affordable eternal format.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I'd love to know how big of an impact on prices have the emergency buys of people who wish to finalize their decks/projects/collections before the prices go completely crazy.
I guess that my all-chinese Thresh will never happen.
I guess that there are people who just realized that their 40plus40 will never happen.
I guess that a complete collection of Kipling West is still doable, though.

[Barook]

Makes me wonder how long Modern is still supportable with more and more decks going easily in the 1k-2k dollar range.

Sure, Wizards can reprint stuff, but prices are literally exploding everywhere and it takes Wizards two years to react - and even then, their "Collect the protectors"-stance kinda ruins the whole point of reprints when because they fear the scorn of people who shelled out 800 bucks for the playset of Tarmogoyfs.

[majikal]

I think the obvious end result of all this is that WotC will discontinue Modern as a Pro Tour format. They will probably still have the odd GP like they do with Legacy, but this experiment has failed and shown that Modern - strike that, non-rotating Magic in general - is unsustainable long-term without a serious adjustment of their reprint policies.

[lordofthepit]

did anyone recieved already their chinese copy cards? hows the quality?

Quality is poor. I touched one and it gave me AIDS.

[warai]

I think the obvious end result of all this is that WotC will discontinue Modern as a Pro Tour format. They will probably still have the odd GP like they do with Legacy, but this experiment has failed and shown that Modern - strike that, non-rotating Magic in general - is unsustainable long-term without a serious adjustment of their reprint policies.

This current crazy prices just proves your point. Maybe its time for wizard to bring back the extended with the 3 latest blocks as a PTQ format. There is simply no way to reprint enough cards to satisfy demand for Tarmogoyfs, Birthing Pods, fetchlands, mox opal.

[prateta]

did anyone recieved already their chinese copy cards? hows the quality?

Playable (sleeved). Untradeable (in person).

[nedleeds]

Maybe. Or they might see they just got 4,200~ people to show up for a GP and sold Modern Masters like AKs in Afghanistan.

[Phelix]

well lets have that legacy pro tour then...

[PirateKing]

well lets have that legacy pro tour then...

But Legacy decks are too expensive, remember! Only the decks that can be bought from paper route allowance can be in a Pro Tour, like Modern....

[shrubs]

I'd love to know how big of an impact on prices have the emergency buys of people who wish to finalize their decks/projects/collections before the prices go completely crazy.

I'm only speaking for myself here, but I've been severely cutting my down my collection to fund the last bits and pieces for my favorite decks before things get insanely out of hand. It has too many half-baked ideas that I can never afford to finish now- I was sitting on two Tarmos, but nearly $400 to finish out the playset, let alone the other cards required for the deck? Nah, I like not living in my parent's house too much for that.

If you can afford it, knock yourself out. Top-deck Magic is something I've been priced out of, which sucks but such is life. I've had to make some choices and be more conservative about Magic, which, for the record, I should have done in the first place. Perhaps waiting longer would get more out of the whole charade, but these are the chances we have to take.

[Barook]

Maybe. Or they might see they just got 4,200~ people to show up for a GP and sold Modern Masters like AKs in Afghanistan.
It kinda baffles me how the people at Wizards hate money and get away with it.

If I was a higher-up at Hasbro, I sure would raise hell about why they don't milk their cash cow properly. Demand is clearly there, but they do jackshit to fullfil it. This isn't a videogame company milking us with DLC - they're driving prices up by NOT milking us, as paradox as it sounds.

Inefficiency is probably one of Wizards' trademarks over the years. Just look at the sad state of MODO.

[davelin]

It's shocking to me that legacy-only staples still continues to climb. I mean I know Legacy is a fantastic format and all, but are there really that many new folks who are entering the format? For current legacy players, I would think they would either a) already have most of the staples they need for various decks or b) would sell off other cards first which would increase the available supply of those cards.

[Barook]

It's shocking to me that legacy-only staples still continues to climb. I mean I know Legacy is a fantastic format and all, but are there really that many new folks who are entering the format? For current legacy players, I would think they would either a) already have most of the staples they need for various decks or b) would sell off other cards first which would increase the available supply of those cards.
Speculators/Hoarders are the reason the prices rise so abnormally. Sure, the Legacy community has grown, but that doesn't justify the random price spikes.

[ESG]

It's shocking to me that legacy-only staples still continues to climb. I mean I know Legacy is a fantastic format and all, but are there really that many new folks who are entering the format? For current legacy players, I would think they would either a) already have most of the staples they need for various decks or b) would sell off other cards first which would increase the available supply of those cards.

In my area, yes. There were 319 players for the Legacy portion of SCG Seattle. Last October there were 253 players in that event, and there were 261 the April before that. Turnouts at the local level and at SCG tournaments have been stronger in 2014 than they were in 2013, and 2013's were stronger than years prior. Some players are selling out of the format, but there are two or three new players for each one leaving. Veteran Legacy players still want to build into different strategies, especially fringe or exotic things. Very few players can say they have a playset of everything (or most things) in the format.

Edit: Spikes are a different issue.

[davelin]

In my area, yes. There were 319 players for the Legacy portion of SCG Seattle. Last October there were 253 players in that event, and there were 261 the April before that. Turnouts at the local level and at SCG tournaments have been stronger in 2014 than they were in 2013, and 2013's were stronger than years prior. Some players are selling out of the format, but there are two or three new players for each one leaving. Veteran Legacy players still want to build into different strategies, especially fringe or exotic things. Very few players can say they have a playset of everything (or most things) in the format.

Edit: Spikes are a different issue.

That's great to hear! But has anyone taken a look to see if across the country (or even world?) to see if Legacy attendance is up since that will drive prices more than demand in a specific geographic area?

[Megadeus]

I'm almost certain most SCG Opens have risen in number compared to years past in each respective area. Our Local weekly dipped down to like 16 for a short period, but have risen back to ~25 a week.

[Megadeus]

I think the most annoying thing is the insane disparity between the prices of blue and non blue duals. I can get a plateau or scrubland on ebay for like 40-55 bucks, and USeas and Volc are like 170. Insanity.

[apple713]

I think the most annoying thing is the insane disparity between the prices of blue and non blue duals. I can get a plateau or scrubland on ebay for like 40-55 bucks, and USeas and Volc are like 170. Insanity.

Someones hoarding plateaus waiting for that one deck that spikes their price

[Megadeus]

I think my next project is going to be just picking up a bunch of underpriced non blue duals. I have accepted that I will never play a T1 blue deck so fuck it.

[Esper3k]

Also don't forget that Commander is still very popular, which drives up the price of many of the Legacy staples that overlap.

[apple713]

I think my next project is going to be just picking up a bunch of underpriced non blue duals. I have accepted that I will never play a T1 blue deck so fuck it.

which ones tho? savannah seems like the most likely to increase, maybe scrubland.

[Megadeus]

Scrubland seems under valued considering I can get MP ones on eBay for 50 bucks. Then I may pick up badlands if they are cheap

[Benrobnu]

I don't think it's fair to underestimate new players actually buying into legacy. I got back into magic during innistrad on a whim after over a decade long hiatus and was randomly introduced to legacy by someone letting me borrow dead guy ale to play in an event. If your smart about your choices and avoid the financial pitfall that is standard and pack cracking its pretty reasonable to buy a legacy deck compared to other hobbies.

[davelin]

I don't think it's fair to underestimate new players actually buying into legacy. I got back into magic during innistrad on a whim after over a decade long hiatus and was randomly introduced to legacy by someone letting me borrow dead guy ale to play in an event. If your smart about your choices and avoid the financial pitfall that is standard and pack cracking its pretty reasonable to buy a legacy deck compared to other hobbies.

Good point, I'm guessing there is a good number of folks coming back to the game after a hiatus and earning a decent income.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

If you can afford it, knock yourself out. Top-deck Magic is something I've been priced out of, which sucks but such is life. I've had to make some choices and be more conservative about Magic, which, for the record, I should have done in the first place. Perhaps waiting longer would get more out of the whole charade, but these are the chances we have to take.

You're right. And that's what I'm doing right now: hastily finishing the deck I'll keep, working on a project or two and throwing away all the things. Otoh, I sold UR fetches some time around Christmas and they doubled in price since then. Oh, the pain of decisions - should I sit on the remaining cards, or should I sell now...

On the rising number of Legacy players: I consider the "two new for one leaving" phrase being just that, a phrase. I'd love to see the real numbers, if there's a chance to get them. I believe that overall MtG/Legacy players' number doubled over last few years, but I guess it isn't +50 % per year.
Also, our lgs sees twenty ppl on Thu. Yes, the faces change over the time, but it's still around twenty players. We've started at twenty back in 2007 and the "two for one players' change phenomenon" brought us to... twenty in 2014.

I think the non-SCG, non-GP, non-BoM growth of Legacy is overrated.

[Lt. Quattro]

Still Glad I never traded my Wastes. Even if one is damaged.

now the cheapest wastelands on tcg is $109.99 with the next cheapest being $120.73. :eek:

[lordofthepit]

It's shocking to me that legacy-only staples still continues to climb. I mean I know Legacy is a fantastic format and all, but are there really that many new folks who are entering the format? For current legacy players, I would think they would either a) already have most of the staples they need for various decks or b) would sell off other cards first which would increase the available supply of those cards.


In fact, I've been charting Legacy attendance at various events for quite a while. I used to keep a blog with these figures as I updated them on Salvation, but it seems this got wiped out when they made the switch to the godawful new forum, and their new equivalent is nearly impossible to write content for since it doesn't use standard forum or HTML tags.

Anyway, here is a plot of Legacy attendance numbers for every single Legacy Open since its inception:

http://i.imgur.com/9csRT3M.png


But has anyone taken a look to see if across the country (or even world?) to see if Legacy attendance is up since that will drive prices more than demand in a specific geographic area?

Yes, Legacy attendance is up in all major regions of the U.S., at least according to SCG turnout. I've also annotated the host city for each event.

http://i.imgur.com/d2DZrWP.png
http://i.imgur.com/WM41hLK.png
http://i.imgur.com/b3FOI9f.png
http://i.imgur.com/tXtlPtz.png


In my area, yes. There were 319 players for the Legacy portion of SCG Seattle. Last October there were 253 players in that event, and there were 261 the April before that. Turnouts at the local level and at SCG tournaments have been stronger in 2014 than they were in 2013, and 2013's were stronger than years prior. Some players are selling out of the format, but there are two or three new players for each one leaving.

I go to the same store as ESG, and I've also kept track of attendance numbers for all of the events I've been to. There's a pretty demonstrable trend towards higher attendance over the years, due to influx of new players:

http://i.imgur.com/gM5urfN.png

Note that these only include weekly events for the sake of comparison, as our LGS also runs occasional weekend events that get even better attendance. I should point out that there are two events in the graph above with anomalously high attendance, due to special prizes awarded on Memorial Day and Labor Day. The Mondays with relatively low attendance usually follow a major Legacy event such as an SCG Open or a similar type of tournament in the Pacific Northwest (as evident from the most recent data point immediately after the recent SCG Open).

For the record, here are the actual numbers for SCG Legacy Opens in Seattle:


2010/06/10 190
2011/07/24 184
2012/07/01 187
2012/11/18 164
2013/04/21 261
2013/10/20 253
2014/03/16 321

tl;dr Lots of players are joining the format, which at least partially recent price trends.

[ESG]

Impressive collection of data. Thanks for sharing it.

For the most recent Open, I didn't hear the player number announced at the start of the event, so I used the Round 1 pairings on SCG's site to determine the total. I'm guessing that two players dropped or were MIA before Round 1 pairings commenced. (Or maybe were DQ'd?) I know that the announcer was trying to locate two people around that time. Maybe that explains the minor discrepancy in our numbers.

[lordofthepit]

Impressive collection of data. Thanks for sharing it.

For the most recent Open, I didn't hear the player number announced at the start of the event, so I used the Round 1 pairings on SCG's site to determine the total. I'm guessing that two players dropped or were MIA before Round 1 pairings commenced. (Or maybe were DQ'd?) I know that the announcer was trying to locate two people around that time. Maybe that explains the minor discrepancy in our numbers.

Yeah, there's often some discrepancy, but I tend to use the number of players listed at the end of round 1 standings. For some of the older events, I've used TCDecks, but I recently found their event archive page, so I am considering re-checking the numbers when I have the chance.

[Higgs]

I think you should create a new thread about this (SCG Legacy attendance numbers or "the Legacy health graphic!") and make it sticky. Pretty good stuff.

[Kayradis]

Let's just be honest with ourselves here.
WotC doesn't give a damn f*ck about legacy. Even if there is a strong interest and an ever growing player base, WotC is a real honey badger when it comes to Legacy (Im fairly convinced they see it like an illegitimate slightly retarded child they hide in the cave...).

That, surprisingly, is to our advantage. The fact that the dumbasses running this game don't care keeps them away from the banlist and screwing everything up every couple months. It makes us more aware and pushing for solutions when cards like TNN are printed. Jeez. Im running 2 x MD Runed Halo in D&T right now. The card is even spiking at this point.

Im running entry-level legacy events with staples as prizes to increase card availability and it's been a success.
Low entry fee (15$) high payout and everybody is having a blast. People are trying deck, people are investing in cards, people are winning high value cards (duals).

Its up to us, the community, to prove WotC how stupid they are to believe legacy is a dead format.
Legacy is a gentleman's sport.
It's like......Polo!
It's expensive to own a horse, but once you have it, you'll play the hell outta that sport!

[Megadeus]

I'm interested in seeing what SCG restocks on Wastelands at. Which are at 142 on TCG lol lol lol

Also CHains of Mephistopheles is almost at 250 now TCG.

[prateta]

Wastelands at 140 TCG mid? Time to quit, this is beyond stupid lol.

Sent from my Lenovo S920_ROW using Tapatalk

[prateta]

Autumn Willow from $0.5 to $15 in one day. Can someone explain?

Sent from my Lenovo S920_ROW using Tapatalk

[Lemnear]

Autumn Willow from $0.5 to $15 in one day. Can someone explain?

Sent from my Lenovo S920_ROW using Tapatalk

No one can explain modern and commander speculation. It's complete madness and anyone buying cards now in panic is fucking stupid.

[Barook]

I'm interested in seeing what SCG restocks on Wastelands at. Which are at 142 on TCG lol lol lol
Seriously, what the fuck?

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/price/Tempest/Wasteland

That's a 45$ price jump since Sunday - and that aren't even SCG prices. I smell market manipulation.

[prateta]

No one can explain modern and commander speculation. It's complete madness and anyone buying cards now in panic is fucking stupid.

Well MKM is emptying. If stores will start to buy them even for $5 that's at least 600% profit of each one you buy now. Sounds good to me if you buy like 50 of them :-D

[Lemnear]

Well MKM is emptying. If stores will start to buy them even for $5 that's at least 600% profit of each one you buy now. Sounds good to me if you buy like 50 of them :-D

Indeed. MCM runs dry on cards atm. It frightens me.

[prateta]

Indeed. MCM runs dry on cards atm. It frightens me.

Well I ordered my 4 playsets. Maybe I am stupid, but man's got to eat. :-D I payed avg 0,3 euro per one. It's almost free.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Autumn Willow from $0.5 to $15 in one day. Can someone explain?


I looked for an appropriate Dafug picture, but got lazy before I found one. So imagine me shocked.
Are you saying me that Autumn Willoow went so high? I simply can't believe that. I immediatelly bought four just in case I'd need them. (Which in fact I will.) And I'm going for Kaysa. Four. No less.

This is insane. Insane! INSANE!

[Arsenal]

$140 Wasteland is irritating. I mean, if you haven't already gotten in, you likely never will with the way these prices are skyrocketing with no obvious end in sight. Remember the days when Vial/Port/Wasteland decks were the "cheap" alternative to dual-heavy decks?

[Admiral_Arzar]

$140 Wasteland is irritating. I mean, if you haven't already gotten in, you likely never will with the way these prices are skyrocketing with no obvious end in sight. Remember the days when Vial/Port/Wasteland decks were the "cheap" alternative to dual-heavy decks?

Yeah, I remember when Goblins and Merfolk both cost $500 or less to assemble. Those days are apparently behind us.

[prateta]

I looked for an appropriate Dafug picture, but got lazy before I found one. So imagine me shocked.
Are you saying me that Autumn Willoow went so high? I simply can't believe that. I immediatelly bought four just in case I'd need them. (Which in fact I will.) And I'm going for Kaysa. Four. No less.

This is insane. Insane! INSANE!

Indeed it is. Why Kaysa though?


Yeah, I remember when Goblins and Merfolk both cost $500 or less to assemble. Those days are apparently behind us.

Far behind. No sane person would buy into tier 1 legacy right now. Who would spend $2-3k for a deck? In the last 6 months prices of all staples went sky-high. This will continue, no doubts, and as has been said before - who haven't bought in few years ago, never will. This isn't matter of Legacy only, this shit will hurt Modern too.

And as reprints never come, I see no reason to continue in constructed MtG (except of Pauper, which is suprisingly fun a super cheap). I guess I'll be sitting on my legacy cards for a while and then buy out, as I'm tired of playing 1 or 2 decks all the time and will never be able to play blue decks in Legacy. Well I could but I'd rather buy a flat.

[Koby]

I want us all to exercise some critical thinking in this thread. For starters, when referring to TCGplayer or MTGStocks.com prices, also note the quantity available, or frequency of hits in that price range.

Example:
Autumn Willow (http://mtgstocks.com/cards/10679) has one seller with quantity 4 at $15. Daily historical shows copies at <$0.50 yesterday (3/18/14)
Wasteland (http://mtgstocks.com/cards/9834) has multiple sellers with quantity >4 around $140. Historical shows a gradual uptrend over 3 months.
One of these is legitimate demand. The other is market manipulation or unrealistic pricing. Please only discuss the one with legitimate price creep, and back up the discussion with both price AND quantity.

Useful links:
www.mtgstocks.com/interests
www.mtgprice.com
www.apathyhouse.com
magic.tcgplayer.com (http://magic.tcgplayer.com)

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Indeed it is. Why Kaysa though?

Rare Reserved Rebecca. Breaks Erhnams' stalls. Bolt proof. Wow.

[Benrobnu]

Indeed it is. Why Kaysa though?

Far behind. No sane person would buy into tier 1 legacy right now. Who would spend $2-3k for a deck? In the last 6 months prices of all staples went sky-high. This will continue, no doubts, and as has been said before - who haven't bought in few years ago, never will. This isn't matter of Legacy only, this shit will hurt Modern too.


No sane person would spend 2-3k fixed amount on a hobby with no real additional costs and potential for a significant return? I think you need to reexamine this premise

[prateta]

No sane person would spend 2-3k fixed amount on a hobby with no real additional costs and potential for a significant return? I think you need to reexamine this premise

If you put it like this, it actually makes sense. I have to rephrase then: Not many people can afford to spend 3k fixed on a hobby. Which is ok, sure, I'm no commie. But buy-ins that high are hurting eternal formats. But this has been said too many times, no need to repeat that. We should be bitching about prices in this topic, and those are damn high! :-D

I'm just wondering... what triggered this massive price increase we are experiencing in the past few months?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

No sane person would spend 2-3k fixed amount on a hobby with no real additional costs and potential for a significant return? I think you need to reexamine this premise

Depends. The last time my deck was nerfed, I sleeved Tundras and Strands and continued rocking. It isn't that simple for a guy that is new to the game, doesn't have the UW lands not to mention the staples.

If I'd be a total MtG virgin, and someone came to me and told me "c'mon, try this game" and I'd be hooked like I was back in 1996 and then he'd told me the pricetag, and then I'd learn that for this price I may play one the many possible decks and not even be sure I'd be winning one of those tournaments with asses cracking here and there like ripe walnuts... idk. I'd play Settlers, I guess.

And prateta, you owe me a buck. Although I checked the MKM and seen that there are just two insanely priced Willows (of whom I'd love to have the signed one), I still bought the set. But it's ok, I owe you a glass, without this I'd never force myself into the purchase... :smile:

[prateta]

If I'd be a total MtG virgin, and someone came to me and told me "c'mon, try this game" and I'd be hooked like I was back in 1996 and then he'd told me the pricetag, and then I'd learn that for this price I may play one the many possible decks and not even be sure I'd be winning one of those tournaments with asses cracking here and there like ripe walnuts... idk. I'd play Settlers, I guess.

And prateta, you owe me a buck. Although I checked the MKM and seen that there are just two insanely priced Willows (of whom I'd love to have the signed one), I still bought the set. But it's ok, I owe you a glass, without this I'd never force myself into the purchase... :smile:

Haven't thought about the buy-in from a MtG virgin perspective. Your point is very valid I think.

And don't worry about the Willows, crazier shit happened, those girls will earn you some money for sure! :smile: But yeah, next time I have to pay more attention when browsing mtgstocks. Luckily my 2 orders got cancelled as the seller panicked too. So I only (possibly) lost 3 euros for 2 playsets.

[Benrobnu]

If you put it like this, it actually makes sense. I have to rephrase then: Not many people can afford to spend 3k fixed on a hobby. Which is ok, sure, I'm no commie. But buy-ins that high are hurting eternal formats. But this has been said too many times, no need to repeat that. We should be bitching about prices in this topic, and those are damn high! :-D

I'm just wondering... what triggered this massive price increase we are experiencing in the past few months?

I'm wondering the same thing. I had the opportunity to buy a set of MPR wastelands for $600 three months ago and the price had been so static I figured I could just get them later there's other things I wanted instead (Miracles cards WOOOOO!). Needless to say I seriously regret this decision as they currently they are over 3 times that amount and something has to have caused it.

[prateta]

I'm wondering the same thing. I had the opportunity to buy a set of MPR wastelands for $600 three months ago and the price had been so static I figured I could just get them later there's other things I wanted instead (Miracles cards WOOOOO!). Needless to say I seriously regret this decision they are over 3 times that and something has to have caused it.

Well at least cards like Wasteland, Port, FOW... they are all reprintable. Considering the high price of duals, Legacy would be perfectly fine (price-wise) if all high dollar cards would get reprinted. The decks would still cost $1000+ if you'd want to play more colors. Which is still cool if you want Legacy to be (for some reason) unavailable for some sort of people. I still think these reprints will happen, but it might only be my wishful thinking.

I like Legacy for its diversity. It's fun, you get to play strong cards and old cards with beautiful arts. I'm capable to spend a lot of money on it, as are thousands of other people. But wouldn't it be more fun if you could play, let's say 10 different decks without having $20 000 in MtG cards?

[Benrobnu]

Well at least cards like Wasteland, Port, FOW... they are all reprintable. Considering the high price of duals, Legacy would be perfectly fine (price-wise) if all high dollar cards would get reprinted. The decks would still cost $1000+ if you'd want to play more colors. Which is still cool if you want Legacy to be (for some reason) unavailable for some sort of people. I still think these reprints will happen, but it might only be my wishful thinking.

I like Legacy for its diversity. It's fun, you get to play strong cards and old cards with beautiful arts. I'm capable to spend a lot of money on it, as are thousands of other people. But wouldn't it be more fun if you could play, let's say 10 different decks without having $20 000 in MtG cards?


The diversity, strength of the cards, complexity of interactions, amount of risk and the people that play legacy are the biggest draw to the format for myself. I do wish it was easier to switch between decks but I think part of what keeps the format diverse is the financial incentive to master the deck you have.

To focus strictly on Wasteland, it's pretty clear that Wizards would never allow the card in standard at this point, so it was really only a matter of how long it took this to happen.

[shrubs]

Could this trend in rising prices be caused by a more stable economy than we had a few years ago? In that people now have more discretionary income and thus are willing to pay more for luxuries.

I'm not saying that this is the only factor, with Legacy attendance on the rise etc, but perhaps a contributing factor.

Regardless I have done zero research and am only throwing this out as a hypothesis.

[Benrobnu]

Could this trend in rising prices be caused by a more stable economy than we had a few years ago? In that people now have more discretionary income and thus are willing to pay more for luxuries.

I'm not saying that this is the only factor, with Legacy attendance on the rise etc, but perhaps a contributing factor.

Regardless I have done zero research and am only throwing this out as a hypothesis.

It sounds really good to me!

[workingdude]

Indeed. MCM runs dry on cards atm. It frightens me.

Autumn Willow? I see about 250 copies on various sites that are priced below 50 cents. Anyone feel like spending 125$ and never getting rid of them?

[mini1337s]

I want us all to exercise some critical thinking in this thread. For starters, when referring to TCGplayer or MTGStocks.com prices, also note the quantity available, or frequency of hits in that price range.

Example:
Autumn Willow (http://mtgstocks.com/cards/10679) has one seller with quantity 4 at $15. Daily historical shows copies at <$0.50 yesterday (3/18/14)
Wasteland (http://mtgstocks.com/cards/9834) has multiple sellers with quantity >4 around $140. Historical shows a gradual uptrend over 3 months.
One of these is legitimate demand. The other is market manipulation or unrealistic pricing. Please only discuss the one with legitimate price creep, and back up the discussion with both price AND quantity.

Useful links:
www.mtgstocks.com/interests
www.mtgprice.com
www.apathyhouse.com
magic.tcgplayer.com (http://magic.tcgplayer.com)

Agreed and this is a perfect example of the current problem in the Magic economy. Players/speculators (particularly newer speculators) will limit their price knowledge to one or two sources, when there are many more at play. People will panic buy when they see nominal increases on semi-playable/untested cards to avoid getting burned later. All that happens is that they artificially inflate prices based on unfounded speculation.

Savvier sellers have realized they control the market price of cards and can generate artificial spikes that will turn into legitimate, albeit due to panic, demand. Realizing that so many people use MTGstocks as their sole pricing resource, they can accumulate a decent reserve of a card with a limited print run (let’s say Runed Halo as an example), buy up the entire stock on a single day and list their own copies at an inflated price, and players will buy into it so they don’t miss out on the next big thing. Other retailers will follow suit, and before you know it, bulk rares are selling for $15. The seller who starts the trend quickly moves their stock while the price is high, and eventually people realized they were suckered in and it becomes a game of one fool trying to sell to a greater fool.

In cases like Starcitygames, they raise prices based on legitimate demand; they have dedicated team keeping track of competitor’s prices as well as the demand/sales history in their own store and they make calculated price increases based on that information. Occasionally they will buy out entire market places of a single card so they can relist at a higher price, but this generally only happens with older cards that have proven playability and a high level of collectability (I.E. Chains or Tabernacle). I’m not SCG’s number 1 cheerleader by any means, but I understand that their increase decisions are well-researched and warranted to remain competitive in the marketplace.

I guess my point is that people pay too much attention to MTGstocks and not enough attention to long-term tournament results. If they really want to profit, they won’t buy into the latest tech, rather, they should calculate what decks/strategies are strongest in a format’s metagame, and buy cards based on that. For example, I did this with Death and Taxes when it started to consistently put up Top 8 performances (pre-TNN). Sure I didn’t get my Ports for $5, but I did get them for $30 when it was clear they were a legitimate role player in that deck. People need to carefully observe a format as well as a large number of retailors before making a purchase decision.

[Tanith]

Agreed and this is a perfect example of the current problem in the Magic economy. Players/speculators (particularly newer speculators) will limit their price knowledge to one or two sources, when there are many more at play. People will panic buy when they see nominal increases on semi-playable/untested cards to avoid getting burned later. All that happens is that they artificially inflate prices based on unfounded speculation.

Savvier sellers have realized they control the market price of cards and can generate artificial spikes that will turn into legitimate, albeit due to panic, demand. Realizing that so many people use MTGstocks as their sole pricing resource, they can accumulate a decent reserve of a card with a limited print run (let’s say Runed Halo as an example), buy up the entire stock on a single day and list their own copies at an inflated price, and players will buy into it so they don’t miss out on the next big thing. Other retailers will follow suit, and before you know it, bulk rares are selling for $15. The seller who starts the trend quickly moves their stock while the price is high, and eventually people realized they were suckered in and it becomes a game of one fool trying to sell to a greater fool.

In cases like Starcitygames, they raise prices based on legitimate demand; they have dedicated team keeping track of competitor’s prices as well as the demand/sales history in their own store and they make calculated price increases based on that information. Occasionally they will buy out entire market places of a single card so they can relist at a higher price, but this generally only happens with older cards that have proven playability and a high level of collectability (I.E. Chains or Tabernacle). I’m not SCG’s number 1 cheerleader by any means, but I understand that their increase decisions are well-researched and warranted to remain competitive in the marketplace.

I guess my point is that people pay too much attention to MTGstocks and not enough attention to long-term tournament results. If they really want to profit, they won’t buy into the latest tech, rather, they should calculate what decks/strategies are strongest in a format’s metagame, and buy cards based on that. For example, I did this with Death and Taxes when it started to consistently put up Top 8 performances (pre-TNN). Sure I didn’t get my Ports for $5, but I did get them for $30 when it was clear they were a legitimate role player in that deck. People need to carefully observe a format as well as a large number of retailors before making a purchase decision.

Current problem in Magic economy, is people having multiples copies of Legacy staples in multiple languages, in multiple conditions, and yet, being criticizing how expensive Legacy is. Thats hypocrisy. And thats the mayor problem.
Just give yourself a look in the pimp thread.

[apple713]

Current problem in Magic economy, is people having multiples copies of Legacy staples in multiple languages, in multiple conditions, and yet, being criticizing how expensive Legacy is. Thats hypocrisy. And thats the mayor problem.
Just give yourself a look in the pimp thread.

legacy is a format for long time players of magic and/or people with good jobs. It doesn't bother me that segregation exists. I don't really want to play a game with children that are 16 years old...

take GP Paris for example (top 8)

Jean-Mary "Lejay" Accart Age: 31

Stefan Böttcher Age: 24

Loïc Le Briand Age: 29

Jóse Manuel Fernández Castelló Age: 30

Javier Dominguez Age: 26

Philipp Schönegger Age: 20

Maxime Gilles Age: 26

Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa Age: 26

we have 1 outlier @ age 20... What this tells me is that these people have probably been playing for a long time.

[lordofthepit]

legacy is a format for long time players of magic and/or people with good jobs. It doesn't bother me that segregation exists. I don't really want to play a game with children that are 16 years old...

take GP Paris for example (top 8)

Jean-Mary "Lejay" Accart Age: 31

Stefan Böttcher Age: 24

Loïc Le Briand Age: 29

Jóse Manuel Fernández Castelló Age: 30

Javier Dominguez Age: 26

Philipp Schönegger Age: 20

Maxime Gilles Age: 26

Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa Age: 26

we have 1 outlier @ age 20... What this tells me is that these people have probably been playing for a long time.

26 is old now? :mad:

[Esper3k]

26 is old now? :mad:

FML... :cry:

[apple713]

26 is old now? :mad:

no but if you'll notice the game is advertised to 13+

http://i.imgur.com/8UvJjlFl.jpg

[Bed Decks Palyer]

We got a dude in his fifties (some lawyer, btw) visiting our lgs. He plays his (quite abysmal) brews, but then again, he's got fun with them. I think he specializes in non-Eternal, though. Younger players call him Děda Svačinář (literally meaning Grandpa Snackboy), although I guess he never snacked anyone.
Oh, it's a long time jargon (started in Prague, spread all over Bohemia now) dating back to Revised; to "snack out the card" means to get it extremely cheap from a newbie, the usual double Craw Wurm for Taiga muck.

/ot

[Megadeus]

26 isnt old by any means (I'm 21). Just that this shows that you wont have to play against random 14 year old high school kids when playing legacy a lot of the time. And I am perfectly fine with that. I hated going to FNMs and playing vs some high school (or sometimes even younger) kid. Maybe it is simply because as the youngest in my whole family I dont interact with children well, but overall it is a semi annoying experience. I would rather play vs someone that I can have intelligent, or hilarious, conversation with.

As for prices, Wasteland is hilarious. I'm waiting for the non blue duals to go up since USea and Volc are now both at 250 each SCG. Waiting on 100 dollar Scrublands and 70 dollar Plateaus.

[Lemnear]

Autumn Willow? I see about 250 copies on various sites that are priced below 50 cents. Anyone feel like spending 125$ and never getting rid of them?

I have no clue why you think I was talking about Autumn Willow if I clearly said "MCM". Prices of staples also skyrocket there and there are much less copies of staples available than in December. I was recently looking for 1-2 cards and quickly said "fuck that!" after seeing prices/condition

[Kayradis]

#blamejulianforcradlespike

[Phelix]

Does it beat Blame Kibler?

[majikal]

Well gentlemen, it's been a pleasure, but I think I'm out. Volcanic Island and Underground Sea have crept up to $300 on the retail end, Force of Will is ~$100 and creeping upward, and Wasteland is apparently $150 now. Where the blue duals are at in particular was the price point of Moxes when Vintage started to die out. I guess SCG can keep the format artificially alive for a little while longer, but I'm pretty sure there's only a year or two left in the old girl before they take her out and shoot her.

Really, prices across the board are getting out of hand, barring Standard. Maybe that's the goal? Who knows. At any rate, the money's too tempting, and I don't get to play as much as I'd like anyway. I'll probably keep my EDH decks and build a cube or something, but I'm cashing in everything else.

[mini1337s]

Well gentlemen, it's been a pleasure, but I think I'm out. Volcanic Island and Underground Sea have crept up to $300 on the retail end, Force of Will is ~$100 and creeping upward, and Wasteland is apparently $150 now. Where the blue duals are at in particular was the price point of Moxes when Vintage started to die out. I guess SCG can keep the format artificially alive for a little while longer, but I'm pretty sure there's only a year or two left in the old girl before they take her out and shoot her.

Really, prices across the board are getting out of hand, barring Standard. Maybe that's the goal? Who knows. At any rate, the money's too tempting, and I don't get to play as much as I'd like anyway. I'll probably keep my EDH decks and build a cube or something, but I'm cashing in everything else.
If you do decide to cash out, I'd recommend building a cube. At the very least, you'll be able to draft the strategies you've played all these years.

[Mr.C]

Well gentlemen, it's been a pleasure, but I think I'm out. Volcanic Island and Underground Sea have crept up to $300 on the retail end, Force of Will is ~$100 and creeping upward, and Wasteland is apparently $150 now. Where the blue duals are at in particular was the price point of Moxes when Vintage started to die out. I guess SCG can keep the format artificially alive for a little while longer, but I'm pretty sure there's only a year or two left in the old girl before they take her out and shoot her.

Really, prices across the board are getting out of hand, barring Standard. Maybe that's the goal? Who knows. At any rate, the money's too tempting, and I don't get to play as much as I'd like anyway. I'll probably keep my EDH decks and build a cube or something, but I'm cashing in everything else.

I remember that time. 'OMG Mox [whatever] is a $300 card, how am I supposed to afford that?!?!?!?'

[apple713]

I remember that time. 'OMG Mox [whatever] is a $300 card, how am I supposed to afford that?!?!?!?'

i remember that, I was 13 @ the time and I had a handful of dual lands. Now I can almost trade an underground sea for a mox... somethings wrong here.

[Megadeus]

One sees infinitely more play than the other to be fair...

[Mr.C]

i remember that, I was 13 @ the time and I had a handful of dual lands. Now I can almost trade an underground sea for a mox... somethings wrong here.

Just means that I'll be trading duals for Moxes soon. Might be able to finish that Unlimited set I've been postponing, heh.

[apple713]

Just means that I'll be trading duals for Moxes soon. Might be able to finish that Unlimited set I've been postponing, heh.

yeah it'll be interesting. It might meld the legacy and vintage crowds since there is like 90% overlap and just a handful of extra duals can get u all the vintage staples

[Bed Decks Palyer]

yeah it'll be interesting. It might meld the legacy and vintage crowds since there is like 90% overlap and just a handful of extra duals can get u all the vintage staples

Vintage, from what little I do understand about the format, is completely different from Legacy. I doubt it's just about throwing Mana Drains where there were Spell Pierces, and calling it a day. I for one will never play Vintage, no matter how wide is the overlap, because I find nothing thrilling about Vintage and its broken cards for even more broken prices.
While Legacy decks at 2000 - 3000 bucks are stretching the limit, Vintage piles are simply insane.

I'm afraid that the answer is somewhere in the posts above: non-rotating format are doomed to this fate - massive reprints or slow death.
Otoh, it's told for years, and it still didn't happen.


Well gentlemen, it's been a pleasure, but I think I'm out. Volcanic Island and Underground Sea have crept up to $300 on the retail end, Force of Will is ~$100 and creeping upward, and Wasteland is apparently $150 now. Where the blue duals are at in particular was the price point of Moxes when Vintage started to die out. I guess SCG can keep the format artificially alive for a little while longer, but I'm pretty sure there's only a year or two left in the old girl before they take her out and shoot her.
True. Yet I got my duals, and with them I got all that I need. I may sit on them for half a century, it's not like I need the money and until the power creep kills Goyf, Delver or Mongoose, I may play the tournaments together with my grandson.

What I can't justify are new purchases and buying into [insert format]. But I think I may be able to keep eighteen lands, four Goyfs and four Forces plus maybe some Vendilion Clique and/or Sylvan Library.

Sadly, it gets worse when speaking of the sideprojects and fun decks, but then again, either our casual group rises from the ashes in full force (and then I'll have all the fun one may have), or it won't rise and then I'll keep the abovementioned sideprojects and fun decks until the final day when I simply burst out and throw them on (some future) MKM.

We're discussing a one-time investment of 2000 bucks. Not an amount of money I'd throw out of window, but well, it's not that much if it may be your only investment for next few decades.

[Megadeus]

I'll be honest, I've been thinking about cashing out since prices have gotten ridiculous. It might be because I'm feeling old and washed up - if 26 is considered old, then I'm practically dead.

I've thought about it, but then I remember how much fun traveling to SCG events and such is. I would miss that aspect. I could see those who have a TON of stuff shaving their collection down, but if I did that I would want to keep at least 1 deck to play with.

[Lemnear]

I gave up on pimping out my Elves further. I'm not willing to spend that much money for non-blue duals and fetches. Rest is FOIL anyways ... for me it's a sign.

Cashed in everything that isn't in decks or are slot-changes

[lordofthepit]

I'll be honest, I've been thinking about cashing out since prices have gotten ridiculous. It might be because I'm feeling old and washed up - if 26 is considered old, then I'm practically dead.

Tupac died at 25. :frown: