[Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread [Archive] - Page 2

Otter

01-28-2010, 11:48 PM

I'm a pretty big fan of SCG as well. If I can't find a sick deal from some luck on ebay or cardshark, I usually just buy from them because I know that even though I'm paying a couple more dollars, I'm assured quality customer service and properly graded cards.

Well, it appears that people are flocking to eBay for legacy shit, I always try to save money by buying online but .... my local card shop has better prices than eBay when you buy the cards in shitty condition. I would literally overpay by $5.00 to get a playset of whatever I want of cards that are $5-10 each. Its crazy. I just bid $10.48 (free shipping) on a playset of Firestorms and I can buy 4x of them at my local cardshop for $3.00 or possibly a tiny bit less for each one in played condition. I only need 3 but ... it would be nice to have the 4th for a little cheaper. But either way, this is just getting way the fuck out of hand. I should be able to go on eBay and get deals on legacy shit, NOT go to my local card shop and get the deals there. This is honestly just fucking ridiculous. Wizards needs to reprint shit like: Tabernacle, Mox Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, etc. to make the format at least possible for people to start out in without spending metric fucktons of money.

Ebay has been pretty fickle lately. I just finished getting a set of City of Traitors (won a bunch of 1x auctions) for about 8-10 each, but a few of the ones that I lost went all the way up to like $18. I was also going for a set of Smokestacks, but now they're at over $30 with three days left.

Necrogeist

01-28-2010, 11:50 PM

workingdude

01-29-2010, 12:17 AM

It's amazing to me how far over the typical MOTL prices people are going - no wonder Tundra prices are rising, when people are bidding over $40 for one of them.
I find it astonishing that I just bought 4 Tundras from 4 different sellers for ~$33 each at the end of December, and now they're going for $37 minimum.
I guess the real question is whether or not these prices are going to see a drop after this year, assuming that legacy isn't as well supported in 2011. Cards for eternal formats have tended to hold whatever price they reach, barring any sort of banning, but if people exit legacy en masse after this year (that is, those who entered it right now), we could see enough cards put back onto the market to see prices level out a bit, perhaps. Or maybe there just aren't enough cards to go around, in which case prices will never drop :/.

If SCG is really the driving force behind the rising prices, then they actually might pull support for legacy in 2011. After a strong year of selling previously unmovable legacy cards, they stop holding these tournaments. Legacy prices fall again, and they'll buy some staples at relatively drastically low prices. (only to then raise support for legacy)

SCG is not making money by the tournaments alone with a 30$ entry fee and only getting ~150 people each time.

ryO!

01-29-2010, 03:47 AM

another fair shop to add to my list shuffle and cut, i ve ordered the very last 2 Loyal retainers the day they strangely disappeared from every shop, just after someone in this thread even mention that they were out of stocks also there ( checked just in case and wtf 2 left? for 40$). Anyway it wasn't a speculation expense, i actually needed 2 of them for a survival deck and another tool box deck, but i never really was in a hurry as the price was stable, until ... we know what.
So they shipped them right on time and i ve recieved them in pristine condition.

DukeDemonKn1ght

01-29-2010, 06:05 AM

Mox Diamonds are forty-five fucking dollars a pop?!?!?!?!?!

FieryBalrog

01-29-2010, 06:35 AM

MMogg

01-29-2010, 07:09 AM

I really think its time to sell my collection.

With prices looking to go through the roof, I might actually make back more than I sunk into it.

I bought Mox D at 18 each, Goyfs at 23, Smokestacks at 4, Wastelands at 8...

I could see selling Smokestacks because that is such a niche card, but the other three cards you mentioned are not worth selling. Wasteland may drop, but it is such an integral part of the format, same with Goyf and Mox Diamond is on the reserve list.

xTrainx

01-29-2010, 08:49 AM

I tend to just use eBay and auction hawk. Just saw a Factory go for 2.00.

If not I tend to just flit around StarCity, ABU Games, and Troll and Toad looking for a good priced group of items.

Necrogeist

01-29-2010, 08:52 AM

If SCG is really the driving force behind the rising prices, then they actually might pull support for legacy in 2011. After a strong year of selling previously unmovable legacy cards, they stop holding these tournaments. Legacy prices fall again, and they'll buy some staples at relatively drastically low prices. (only to then raise support for legacy)

SCG is not making money by the tournaments alone with a 30$ entry fee and only getting ~150 people each time.

True, though they sell a lot of singles and also buy quite a number of cards for ~10-20% of what they sell them for. Add to that the various side events they run (EDH, etc.) and I imagine they must at least be breaking even, not taking into account the profit they are deriving from an overall increase in the price of legacy cards.

xTrainx

01-29-2010, 10:40 AM

If SCG is really the driving force behind the rising prices, then they actually might pull support for legacy in 2011. After a strong year of selling previously unmovable legacy cards, they stop holding these tournaments. Legacy prices fall again, and they'll buy some staples at relatively drastically low prices. (only to then raise support for legacy)

SCG is not making money by the tournaments alone with a 30$ entry fee and only getting ~150 people each time.

Yeah, I really doubt that they would pull support so quickly. They have a huge customer base, and a huge warehouse - If the prices rise, they will almost certainly benefit.

Sea R Hill

01-29-2010, 11:20 AM

Radiant

01-29-2010, 01:09 PM

I also received an order from ABU today. I paid for it more than 2 weeks ago.

I've never had a bad experience with ABU in 4-5 orders, although they don't grade the card very well. Some Nm/M cards I ordered turned out to be Exc.

That's normal, when shipping from the US to Europe. If the cards arrive within a month from some other continent, I'm fine with it. I don't expect them to arrive within a week, because sometimes it takes our own postal service here in Austria a week to ship to Germany, which isn't that far away...

I'm also pretty pleased by ABUGames, 'cause I ordered the last two of their Loyal Retainers für 39,99 USD/ea and they sent them to me without complaints. The cards were graded NM-M and are freshly mint! They did raise the price a day after that for LR, but did not cancel my order, as it seems other stores have done.

Tha Gunslinga

01-29-2010, 02:08 PM

SCG is buying Scroll Racks at $10. Guess it comboes with that new blue card.

Odysseus

01-29-2010, 02:58 PM

shit, that just caused a panic to break out.

ryO!

01-29-2010, 03:12 PM

amazing, those are out of stock in every single shop. I don't get it, even with treasure hunt.
that's the new loyal retainers . . .

Dan Turner

01-29-2010, 03:14 PM

I just looked i have 43 scroll racks for some reason i think it is time to sell.

majikal

01-29-2010, 03:15 PM

I predict either: 1) After the next 5k the hype will die down around Scroll rack and everyone will go back to not playing it, or 2) Scroll Rack + Treasure Hunt will be such a broken source of card advantage for just one deck that one or the other will be banned.

Either way, I don't play decks with enough land to abuse Scroll Rack so I don't care.

Mark Sun

01-29-2010, 03:15 PM

amazing, those are out of stock in every single shop. I don't get it, even with treasure hunt.
that's the new loyal retainers . . .

Makes sense, I saw it earlier today.

I always believed that Scroll Rack was great because Land Tax puts cards you don't want into your library and swaps it out. The opposite is now true. Imagine now, when you're holding 4 lands in your hand and you have Scroll Rack in play. :2::u:: Draw 5.

Odysseus

01-29-2010, 03:27 PM

I just looked i have 43 scroll racks for some reason i think it is time to sell.

psshhh, thats nothing compared to my over 9000 force of wills and pack fresh black lotii.

noob.

majikal

01-29-2010, 04:13 PM

Looks like Phyrexian Tower is a pretty hot mover at the moment as well. It's sold out on most of the retail sites...

Odysseus

01-29-2010, 04:30 PM

zebra unicorn too. snap them up, they're going fast.

Phoenix Ignition

01-29-2010, 04:31 PM

amazing, those are out of stock in every single shop. I don't get it, even with treasure hunt.
that's the new loyal retainers . . .

Except Scroll Rack is bad, and Loyal Retainers just made an okay deck turn into a DTW.

majikal

01-29-2010, 04:42 PM

zebra unicorn too. snap them up, they're going fast.
Who the fuck are you, anyway?

FoulQ

01-29-2010, 04:54 PM

Who the fuck are you, anyway?

HAHA. That was awesome. I'm surprised SCG is buying them for $10. Maybe what they are experimenting with is controlling the market for a certain legacy-only card whether it is good or bad.

Odysseus

01-29-2010, 05:12 PM

Who the fuck are you, anyway?

Odysseus, it should say so on the left somewhere.

jazzykat

01-29-2010, 05:27 PM

HAHA. That was awesome. I'm surprised SCG is buying them for $10. Maybe what they are experimenting with is controlling the market for a certain legacy-only card whether it is good or bad.

This I do know from economic principle: if a store is buying scroll rack for $10 without limit (at least until they change the price) then very quickly no one will be charging less than $10 for a scroll rack. For a brief period we will have an arbitrage situation.

Now, I've been wrong before but a 2+2U+1 sorcery speed draw gimmick doesn't seem likely to work. If I'm going to pay that much mana I'd like to win the game (painter+grind+activation=6) or 3BB=AdNauseum.

I guess what I'm finding rather confusing is that dual lands and FoW really aren't appreciating but fringe and not so fringe anymore rares are skyrocketing. You almost absolutely must have dual lands and/or FoW to get into legacy (I know you can play dragon stompy....) although it seems they aren't appreciating in the manner as other decks.

Is it that these cards were so undervalued before as others have said or is there a sinister force messing with the market?

What happens when everyone reacts to 43 lands winning a lot and all you see are combo decks, does Tabernacle drop to $100 again?

I know this thread is starting to go all over the place but after looking at the DTB/DTW thread why is combo having so many problems putting a significant amount of players into the top 8? Countertop is being played less now than in a very long time.

pi4meterftw

01-29-2010, 05:28 PM

From my experience, SCG is the only Internet seller that you can really trust.
They are fast, they grade correctly and really are customer oriented. I received cards today that I ordered one week ago (I'm in europe). I also received an order from ABU today. I paid for it more than 2 weeks ago.

I've never had a bad experience with ABU in 4-5 orders, although they don't grade the card very well. Some Nm/M cards I ordered turned out to be Exc.

... lol no wonder the internet is littered with complaints about stores. Some things are legitimately annoying, like it's pretty bad to have orders cancelled. I might even complain about that. But seriously, it's "only" excellent? I don't even know how you can so finely distinguish the two that you're so certain that no reasonable metric places it at NM.

Now if you got like: warped/played and were promised NM, I can see how you'd see the difference, but seriously? At Exc, you can't even be sure that it didn't take some damage in the mail.

Phoenix Ignition

01-29-2010, 05:33 PM

I guess what I'm finding rather confusing is that dual lands and FoW really aren't appreciating but fringe and not so fringe anymore rares are skyrocketing. You almost absolutely must have dual lands and/or FoW to get into legacy (I know you can play dragon stompy....) although it seems they aren't appreciating in the manner as other decks.

Have you realized that 80% of the cards named in this thread mysteriously disappear from the market and return with 300% increase in price? Why did you even mention duals and FoWs?

Getsickanddie

01-29-2010, 05:54 PM

I just looked i have 43 scroll racks for some reason i think it is time to sell.

Pics or you're full of shit.

Phoenix Ignition

01-29-2010, 06:16 PM

Pics or you're full of shit.

HAHAHAHAHA WIN!!!

(Yeah, I remember that thread, and I know MF does too, even though the mods tried to hide it in a different thread)

Mr.C

01-29-2010, 07:03 PM

SCG is where my friends and I are buying from for singles when we can't find them at local store.
They are always on due time and in the condition that they should be. Never had any problem..

On topic, is there anyone else trying to collect legacy staples even if they don't need them just to make sure to have them before they raise in price ?
Personally, I've been looking for decently priced cards that are staples just in case that I ever need them.

Been doing that since Legacy was announced :)

geosgaen0

01-30-2010, 11:17 AM

and now its Scroll Rack time >.<

Meister_Kai

01-30-2010, 12:48 PM

So why is Phyrexian Tower disappearing everywhere? What deck is this card a part of? Also who cares about Zodiac whatever, don't all those cards suck?

I think this thread is not only a speculator's dream, but a place in which we should conduct experiments. For instance, I think I'm going to go around and buy every copy of City of Traitors and then post here ranting about how the sky is falling and stating that they will go as high as $45 a piece. I will then sell out and repeat this until I'm rich.

FoulQ

01-30-2010, 04:00 PM

Pics or you're full of shit.

That was one of the most epic threads of all time. Getsickanddie is my hero.

I think it's just a coincedence that cards are rising as they are named in this thread. After all, SCG announced the $10 scroll rack thing, not The Source. And loyal retainers went along with a deck that suddenly sprung up as DTW. Etc.

majikal

01-31-2010, 06:57 AM

So why is Phyrexian Tower disappearing everywhere? What deck is this card a part of?
Apparently it comboes with Abyssal Persecutor. I wouldn't expect a huge price jump on these though, unless that deck just turns out to be the nuts. SCG has them for $5 currently at the low end, but none of the other stores have any (at least not the last time I checked). Oddly, you can still pick them up on eBay for like $2-3.

gravemind123

02-01-2010, 12:05 AM

Is there any reason Scroll Rack suddenly jumped in price? They've only been in the maindeck of like 4 top 8s all year and those decks were all Vintage and possibly all Iona-Oath. I got one for about $5 a few weeks ago and now suddenly you can't buy them for less than like $15.

Phoenix Ignition

02-01-2010, 01:34 AM

Apparently it comboes with Abyssal Persecutor. I wouldn't expect a huge price jump on these though, unless that deck just turns out to be the nuts. SCG has them for $5 currently at the low end, but none of the other stores have any (at least not the last time I checked). Oddly, you can still pick them up on eBay for like $2-3.

This one is still strange. Hasn't anyone heard of Cabal Therapy? The out to the big 6/6 that just waits there in your graveyard for you. Oh crap now that'll jump to 50 a set.

Is there any reason Scroll Rack suddenly jumped in price? They've only been in the maindeck of like 4 top 8s all year and those decks were all Vintage and possibly all Iona-Oath. I got one for about $5 a few weeks ago and now suddenly you can't buy them for less than like $15.

Probably some retarded speculator thinking Treasure Hunt + Scroll Rack = nutz combo!!

Oh boy were they wrong.

Necrogeist

02-01-2010, 08:59 AM

This one is still strange. Hasn't anyone heard of Cabal Therapy? The out to the big 6/6 that just waits there in your graveyard for you. Oh crap now that'll jump to 50 a set.

Probably some retarded speculator thinking Treasure Hunt + Scroll Rack = nutz combo!!

Oh boy were they wrong.

Said speculator = SCG, hence...

caiomarcos

02-01-2010, 10:03 AM

majikal

02-01-2010, 04:21 PM

Or maybe someone got an inside information about Land Tax being unbanned next announcement.
Is it worth noting that Land Tax seems to have jumped to around $10 apiece?

dahcmai

02-01-2010, 06:33 PM

Heh, Scroll Rack. I'm psychic it seems.

As for why, I'd say it has more to do with the fact it's pretty damned amazing with Treasure Hunt.

Next up, new Jace, Humility, Intuition, Argothian Enchantress, and of course Transmute Artifact if they decide to correct it to match the other cards wording (ie. Flash)

I also expect Foil Rofellos to break the $50+ mark by the next time one sells.

majikal

02-01-2010, 06:59 PM

It's official. The sky is falling.

Tarmogoyf has hit $90 on SCG and is sold out at that price. :eek:

Mark Sun

02-01-2010, 07:10 PM

It's official. The sky is falling.

Tarmogoyf has hit $90 on SCG and is sold out at that price. :eek:

Haha, there's going to be a point when it's no longer fun to think about building a new deck. Sigh.

majikal

02-01-2010, 07:12 PM

Well, we asked for more attention for Legacy, and we got it. Was it worth it?

Mark Sun

02-01-2010, 07:22 PM

Well, we asked for more attention for Legacy, and we got it. Was it worth it?

I wasn't expecting it to be this horrendous, to be honest. I mean, $60 Goyfs were fine, I understood Extended Season and the demand. But $90? And to think, the SCG Opens don't end until December 5th. Can you imagine a $150+ Goyfs (or even higher? If CounterTop still continues to be the deck de jour?)? Pretty messed up shit, in my opinion.

kicks_422

02-01-2010, 07:33 PM

I'm guessing he next cards to jump up in price would be the shocklands, as replacements in Legacy decks since all the duals would be cleared out. Wouldn't help that it's Extended season.

Solaran_X

02-01-2010, 07:45 PM

All of a sudden, paying $30 a Goyf a couple months back seems like a good deal instead of the extortion I thought it was at the moment.

SomeRandomDude

02-01-2010, 07:50 PM

Im glad i got my 3 (:cry:) goyfs awhile ago. 2 for $18 each and 1 for $2

Jak

02-01-2010, 07:52 PM

And I thought I was mad when I got my playset for $90. I think it's pure bull shit that they are priced that high, but people are buying them...

Mark Sun

02-01-2010, 07:58 PM

All of a sudden, paying $30 a Goyf a couple months back seems like a good deal instead of the extortion I thought it was at the moment.

Seriously. Fuck me, right? When I decided to start playing again, I should have just sucked it up and bought something with :g: in it. Instead, I rebuilt Landstill, and haven't had the success I've wanted to have. All to save a couple of bucks then, which I would gladly pay now.

FoulQ

02-01-2010, 08:11 PM

NOOO please do not turn this into another "I got my goyfs for $1!!!!" thread.

ramanujan

02-01-2010, 08:18 PM

Wow,

The price makes sense. Legacy is THE format right now. With all of the rotations taking the toll on extended people are moving en masse to our format. Type one has lost. Legacy takes the throne. Hope you have your goyfs, force of wills, and duals because without them you will be in the sea of dredge, gobs, and bad bolt decks.

Who wants a goyf? Everyone! What type of player plays this format? The ones that have been around the sun a few more times. Older players make more money on average. It makes sense. It makes sense.

All that being said, wholly cow!!

BenBleiweiss

02-01-2010, 10:17 PM

The_Red_Panda

02-01-2010, 10:23 PM

Oh man, I cracked a foil Jace at the pre-release.

That sucker is gonna go on ebay so fast he won't know what hit him.

dahcmai

02-02-2010, 04:58 PM

gravemind123

02-02-2010, 06:21 PM

Hey guys, just created an account here.

I'll be talking about the recent fluctuation in Legacy (and honestly, Standard and Extended) in my SCG article next week (not this Thursday, but the Thursday afterwards) and the week after that, in free-side articles. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts once I've put up those two articles.

This coming Thursday, I will be talking a bunch about Scroll Rack, but that article will be premium.

- Ben

Asking your opinion, do you think you can maintain selling Goyfs at their current price, and if so, do you think it will reach $100 or $150 before the end of the Extended Pro Tour season? Or is this something you'd rather not answer now and would like to save for the article?

MMogg

02-02-2010, 09:13 PM

*sigh* Everywhere I turn there is a thread about rising prices. At first, when prices first started to climb, it was kind of nice to vent a bit, but now. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/nike.gif

It's kind of like sex: when you first begin it's really nice, but there's a line between pleasure and chaffing and the general MTG community across several forums have crossed that line and are feverishly pounding away, numb and pleasureless. :laugh:

Raptor

02-02-2010, 10:36 PM

Wow, this is getting ridiculous.
Honestly, I'm rushing to get legacy stapples.
I just bought another set of FOW last week for 100$ because I thought they would increase. They are now 50$... each.

majikal

02-02-2010, 10:44 PM

Wat. That's not right. They were $35 in abundance earlier today. I call foul play. :mad:

Bardo

02-02-2010, 11:12 PM

Hey guys, just created an account here.

Welcome to MTS, Ben. Cheers and enjoy the stay.

About Tarmogoyf. Holy shit. I felt like an idiot having to replace the one my dog ate around Christmas time. That sucked. Checking their prices around the web, I'm kinda stunned. I've never seen Force of Will higher either.

If you're not going to GP Columbus, mid-July is looking like a fine time to unload some staples.

Alright, Lost beacons.

dahcmai

02-03-2010, 12:48 AM

MMogg

02-03-2010, 01:16 AM

I have to admit, I do a lot of buying and selling and this is getting a little silly now. SCG is obviously pushing the legacy scene and I can't complain at all considering it's making the format known. That's a good thing. I just wish Wizards would recognize the fact that these tournaments rely on them to make the cards available.

We need some serious reprints badly now. Implode is the word it seems. I'd rather this not become Vintage where it requires the investment of $2000 or so just to be able to halfway compete. Luckily we still have some decks that are quite good to play that do not cost a ridiculous amount to build, though you have to dish out the hard cash to build the better blue stuff.

This seems hyperbolic. I'm not in-the-know about Vintage, but doesn't it pretty much need at least a Black Lotus and 1 Mox in each deck? Even if you were to play mono red, you could/should still have a Lotus and Ruby. The same is not true or even close to that for Legacy. Not. Even. Close. Top decks like ANT, Ichorid, Merfolk, Thresh, etc. have no cards that are triple digits at the moment. Lion's Eye Diamond, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond are the "expensive" artifacts and not only are playsets cheaper than the cheapest P9 Mox, they are also unnecessary in every deck. There is a very short list of $100+ (or indeed, even $50+) cards that appear in tier 1 or 1.5 decks.

I don't think you're wrong about reprinting cards (hell, I think it's better to reprint them when they are under $50 as you won't burn so many people's investment), but I think talking about not becoming Vintage or making the comparison between necessary P9 and unnecessary random cards in Legacy is not productive and only heightens anxiety, fears, hording, price gouging, hysteria, etc.

jazzykat

02-03-2010, 03:13 AM

It's still going up isn't it. I called FoW. Now I will predict the massive increase of Goblin Artisans and how it will be a 6 mana combo that doesn't win the game. The card it combos with is yet unspoiled to the masses and will be spoiled after WWK's release. It will feature a photo of a yet to be named never before seen almost topless photo of a Hollywood starlet wearing a fantasy costume.

I've heard that goblin artisans will be going at the same rate as FoW in 4 months.

P. S. It's foil.

Don't worry if you can't pay your mortgage in 2 years. The value of your card collection will have went up so much you can flip it 3 times still keep relevant playsets and pay your house off with what's leftover.

02-03-2010, 03:15 AM

Otter

02-03-2010, 03:31 AM

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel this will ultimately drive players away from playing Legacy? [snip]

A special thanks to SCG and all other vendors for jacking prices up to ridiculous proportions, so we have someone to blame when Legacy in 2012 turns into what Vintage is in 2010.

Agreed. The last few months have shown that the moment something looks mildly useful, people jack the price on it up sky-high. Undiscovered Paradise, Show and Tell, Dream Halls, and Grindstone have barely seen a shred of play, yet they all got jacked up to 10x their previous price. I'm quite worried about what's going to happen to the cards that actually matter. Hell, just imagine what'll happen if Force ends up at like sixty or seventy dollars. Extremely pricey Forces mean fewer blue players in general and well, Force kinda keeps the format in check. Combo would take over like nobody's business.

wolfstorm

02-03-2010, 04:06 AM

Really would like to see some legacy staple reprints.. I'm trying to get my friend into magic and realized lately that there's no way he can afford legacy.. probably not even standard.. Sigh.

eq.firemind

02-03-2010, 04:25 AM

Quoting one of my friends:
"M:tG, Legacy? Seems interesting... Wait, what? 4 Tarmo > 2 years of World of Warcraft? Fuck that shit."

jazzykat

02-03-2010, 04:55 AM

I've been drinking heavily tonight and I still know this is ridiculous AND have spelling, grammar, and reading comprehension intact. Is it just me, or does anyone else feel this will ultimately drive players away from playing Legacy? Nobody wants to try to get into a format that requires a fucking $100 Tarmogoyf. That's some of the dumbest shit I've seen. God knows if I didn't already own cards or have access to them then I'd just give up the idea of playing Legacy altogether, because unless you want to play some garbage like Dredge you need to fork over $2000 to even be remotely competitive. It's beyond comprehension why this is happening, but it's just downright going to hurt the format.

A special thanks to SCG and all other vendors for jacking prices up to ridiculous proportions, so we have someone to blame when Legacy in 2012 turns into what Vintage is in 2010.

/I won't remember this post in the morning.

Di= my hero for the month.

I'm in agreement with you. I always told people interested in Legacy that you could always play with your cards and it is cheaper after just one year of playing T2 to have a legacy deck. Now I think it will take a few years of T2 to equal 1 or 2 quality legacy decks. In the meantime, they could have played in a ton more draft/Standard/ and eventually would have the cards for extended.

I'm told that the Vintage metagame is stalemated right now, due to either lack of innovation or decks finding their ultimate maximum power point.

Artowis

02-03-2010, 05:32 AM

So how about that, 'Standard is WAI MORE EXPENSIVE THAN LEGACY?!!' argument now? Basically this is the reason to beware the expansion of Legacy events en masse and why you couldn't have a truly dedicated tournament scene all over the place. Look at the price increases due to just the dozen or so tournaments SCG is running along with the announcement of two GP's this year. Ridiculous.

FWIW though, if you sell Goyfs now, you'll probably be able to pick them up for cheaper at the end of Extended season. There's still a far larger supply of those than Duals or FOW's or what have you. Right now they're only the price they are because players in two major formats are using them at the same time. Oh, plus it's fucking Goyf.

plus_ten

02-03-2010, 05:45 AM

Artowis

02-03-2010, 06:50 AM

Haven't posted here for a while..

Anyway, the analogy that legacy costs more than a few years of standard is missing one major point about value in legacy. While it is true that a quality legacy deck costs more than a year of standard and drafts, it is worth noting that after that year, the value of the standard cards will have plummeted significantly. Over the same period, the legacy deck will have gained value; or at the very least, held the same value (unlikely scenario). We can all agree that, barring some reprints, the value of legacy staples will never drop.

The "legacy > a year of T2" analogy, it should be "legacy = legacy + a year of T2".:wink:

While I agree that the price of admission to legacy has gone up significantly, one can recoup some of that cost when s/he leaves legacy :cool:

Also, in Legacy vs Vintage, Legacy has a huge meta of numerous archetypes with lots of strategies and counter-strategies in various colours. Also, any tiered or even fringe-tier deck can have a shot at winning. The meta shifts significantly from tournament to tournament as reported in the SCG articles. This sort of variety ensures new innovation and prevents any stalemate in legacy.

sigh. Nobody is missing anything. Yes, if you drop a huge amount of money into the format you can get it back. Yay. That's hardly a selling point when you're asking for that sort of money to be thrown in. And Standard is the same way in the sense that you can sell out / trade off all your stuff before the end of a given T2 format for at least 80% value if you're paying attention. The only people who get fucked on Standard are the ones who buy everything, fail to win or do anything of note with all those cards and hold onto for way too long and the other ones are the ones who just don't give a shit (aka: mostly casuals that play FNM's and local t2 tourneys for kicks).

I'll stop there since this discussion has been had a ton of times before. My main point was that the expansion of Legacy events and dealers realizing they can make a ton of cash by raising prices by hoarding are going to make life very miserable for Legacy players looking to expand in the format and newcomers alike. Only the people that own everything or want to sell out are going to be happy.

MMogg

02-03-2010, 07:52 AM

sigh. Nobody is missing anything. Yes, if you drop a huge amount of money into the format you can get it back. Yay. That's hardly a selling point when you're asking for that sort of money to be thrown in. And Standard is the same way in the sense that you can sell out / trade off all your stuff before the end of a given T2 format for at least 80% value if you're paying attention. The only people who get fucked on Standard are the ones who buy everything, fail to win or do anything of note with all those cards and hold onto for way too long and the other ones are the ones who just don't give a shit (aka: mostly casuals that play FNM's and local t2 tourneys for kicks).

I'll stop there since this discussion has been had a ton of times before. My main point was that the expansion of Legacy events and dealers realizing they can make a ton of cash by raising prices by hoarding are going to make life very miserable for Legacy players looking to expand in the format and newcomers alike. Only the people that own everything or want to sell out are going to be happy.

But I think it is a selling point for some people, like me. You said it exactly, you have to pretty much know your stuff and hustle a bit to move your Standard cards to turn a profit or not lose. Legacy, you have to . . . wait. For example, I bought IA and AP painlands for about $5 ea. and now they are shit. I picked up duals at $10 and now they are gold. Yeah, if people are smart and are savvy they can flip the M10 duals without losing and even perhaps gain, but that takes much more time and energy than putting out for a dual land that will never go down. Same could be said for something like Cryptic Command vs. Force of Will. No one is saying it's impossible to keep ahead of the money game in Standard; instead, that for the vast majority of Legacy staples (hate to use that loaded word, but...) all you have to do is wait and they appreciate. Kind of the difference between most cars vs. real estate. The general trend is depreciation vs. appreciation. Yeah there are exceptions to the rule, but that's a general trend. But as you've said, this has all been said before.

Is it more daunting to a new player to plunk down $50 for a Baneslayer Angel (already confirmed to be reprinted in M11) or $50 for 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds that are on the reserve list and will never be reprinted, and most likely will not be banned in Legacy?

Can't we use your own logic against your point of dealers and prices? Can't we as players just trade and hustle for the cards we need? With this system of tubes called in internetz, we can buy, sell and trade with people all over the world. If you can argue that smart and savvy people needn't necessarily lose out by playing Standard, you can apply that to picking up Legacy cards: smart and savvy people will be able to obtain cards at reasonable prices.

I also think the pace of life/the format vs. card availability hasn't really been discussed. If you are looking to put together TES, for example, and you need Burning Wishes, Orim's Chants, Lion's Eye Diamonds, etc., you have time to pick them up and find them, whereas with Standard, it's kind of a mad rush while the deck is still hot. The Standard format changes so quickly that if you have to hurry to pick up what you need, whereas with Legacy, it often takes a while to build a new deck. Maybe that's just my personal experience with those formats.

Kojiro

02-03-2010, 09:03 AM

I'll be talking about the recent fluctuation in Legacy (and honestly, Standard and Extended) in my SCG article next week.

Are you going to talk about why you’re pricing standard cards which haven’t even been released at $60? Are you going to tell us how rare they are and how you just can't keep them in stock at $40 or even $50? Just curious, how often have you been right in 'The Financial Value of X' articles?

In my opinion your team is hurting non-standard Magic as well as your own bottom line. Think how much you have to stretch to pick up the same singles you were buying up a year ago. Would it have killed you so much to have a graduated approach to card pricing rather than to just price it at the highest alternative?

You should read up on how and why the housing market crashed as there are eerie similarities to what’s happening to Magic prices. If you truly believe the prices are from fundamental factors of supply and demand, you’re sorely mistaken. You may not be the driving force in determining prices, but you’re a big reason why many of the fringe rares from the Rath and Saga blocks have gone through the roof. You need to be more responsible in pricing your cards. If the perception is that FoW is no longer a $30 card because you’ve had them on your site for $50+ for months, I wish you the best of luck putting them on your buylist at $25 a pop. Maybe I’m totally wrong and it’s much more profitable for you to make money on higher margin purchases rather than take advantage of economies of scale. That certainly hasn’t been the case with the few dealers I’ve polled about the recent price increases in Legacy.

Mark Sun

02-03-2010, 09:25 AM

<snip>

In the true spirit of the housing crisis... "It's better to borrow decks from your friends!"

But seriously, I'm already suspecting the threshold of when people are forced out of this format to come soon. Then again, they're still buying Tabernacles for $300+ so what do I know?

mogote

02-03-2010, 10:18 AM

Are you going to talk about why you’re pricing standard cards which haven’t even been released at $60? Are you going to tell us how rare they are and how you just can't keep them in stock at $40 or even $50?
Obviously SCG is sold out of Jaces at $60. So demand is high enough to justify that price. It's not like SCG has a neverending stream of Jaces they can put up for sale whenever they get sold out.
The same is true for all Magic cards.

Maveric78f

02-03-2010, 10:28 AM

Let's develop Legacy format and let's make money!

yankeedave

02-03-2010, 10:31 AM

Let's develop Legacy format and let's make money!

Dude, what a waste of a 2000th post :D

Dan Turner

02-03-2010, 10:45 AM

Ok follow my line of reasoning for a second here before the flame wars erupt...

$100 Goyfs are good for the format

WHAT WHAT THE F&CK ARE YOU SMOCKING

Ok if less players can afford that playset of goyfs for the deck it will require them to think up other decks to play. Thus bringing even more diversity to the format. More people will be looking at the lesser played cards and figuring out ways to play them. I honestly think these prices are actually going to shake the format up some and allow tier 1.5 and tier 2 decks to come forward and get the tweaks necessary to really make them competitive. We are going to see a lot of mono colored decks like Goblins and Merfolk going into the Grand Prix this year and I even suspect solidarity may make a run at a top 8.

majikal

02-03-2010, 10:48 AM

Ok if less players can afford that playset of goyfs for the deck it will require them to think up other decks to play. Thus bringing even more diversity to the format. More people will be looking at the lesser played cards and figuring out ways to play them. I honestly think these prices are actually going to shake the format up some and allow tier 1.5 and tier 2 decks to come forward and get the tweaks necessary to really make them competitive. We are going to see a lot of mono colored decks like Goblins and Merfolk going into the Grand Prix this year and I even suspect solidarity may make a run at a top 8.
And then whatever out-of-print cards are used in those decks skyrocket as well. Now what? :cry:

Maveric78f

02-03-2010, 10:50 AM

Dude, what a waste of a 2000th post :D

Damn it. Probability my 2000th post is crap has spoken.

Kojiro

02-03-2010, 10:55 AM

It's not like SCG has a neverending stream of Jaces they can put up for sale whenever they get sold out.
Actually, SCG can pick up all the copies they could ever need on eBay for $35-45. Not sure how you think charging $20-$30 more than the going market rate for a card is at all justified.

yankeedave

02-03-2010, 11:00 AM

Actually, SCG can pick up all the copies they could ever need on eBay for $35-45. Not sure how you think charging $20-$30 more than the going market rate for a card is at all justified.

Its justifed because of the open market. If people will pay that, then why charge less? If people choose not to buy their cards cheaper elsewhere, for whatever reason, then SCG will sell at that price. They want to make money and people will pay that. If people stopped buying them out of stock, they wouldn't put new stock up at higher and higher prices. Simple economics. Eventually, they will hit a price that no one will pay, then they will bring it back down to the level that the cards begin to sell again.

Phoenix Ignition

02-03-2010, 11:09 AM

But seriously, I'm already suspecting the threshold of when people are forced out of this format to come soon.

I don't understand this. You don't get forced out of Legacy if you have the cards already. It isn't the death of the format that you need to pay more money, it just stops outsiders from joining in as easily.

I don't care if Tarms hit 3000$ a piece, I still can play legacy because I own them.

On a side note, I do care, that would suck, I enjoy new players getting to play Legacy, but this statement and others like it are really annoying.

Mark Sun

02-03-2010, 11:11 AM

I don't understand this. You don't get forced out of Legacy if you have the cards already. It isn't the death of the format that you need to pay more money, it just stops outsiders from joining in as easily.

I don't care if Tarms hit 3000$ a piece, I still can play legacy because I own them.

On a side note, I do care, that would suck, I enjoy new players getting to play Legacy, but this statement and others like it are really annoying.

Sorry, I didn't actually word that statement correctly. I was actually still thinking of my housing analogy, LOL.

I mean barring people from the format because of the price of entry. My apologies.

Kojiro

02-03-2010, 11:12 AM

Its justifed because of the open market. If people will pay that, then why charge less?
That's actually the whole point. People are paying between $35-45 elsewhere. How many do you think they actually sold or will sell at $60? I seem to recall them having presales at $27 each...

Hey, everyone, I have Tabernacles for sale at $75 and Goyfs at $2000/playset, but unfortunately I'm sold out right now. See how productive and useful that is? :really:

yankeedave

02-03-2010, 11:20 AM

Jace, the Mind Sculptor (Pre-Order item. Release date February 5, 2010. Please click here to read our Preorder FAQ before ordering this item.) Worldwake Singles 2 Planeswalker - Jace M NM/M Out of Stock 59.99 Click here to be emailed when it's back in stock!

Looks like they are selling fine at $60 to me. If people are lazy, they will go somewhere where they already have an account or know/trust the dealer and just buy at whatever price. Not everyone has the common sense to shop around.

Tinefol

02-03-2010, 11:28 AM

just stops outsiders from joining in as easily.

Thibg is, there is limited amount of staples already (simply because they're out of print, and weren't printed in high amounts). When prices skyrocket, that simply means there are barely enough cards in supply for given demand, so you're hitting that threshold of players not getting in the format due to the availability regardless.

Solution is simple: reprints.

SomeRandomDude

02-03-2010, 11:42 AM

Solution is simple: reprints.

They reprinted Berserk not long ago, while it may not be a staple it was a pricey card all the same, and there was a drop in price.

Phoenix Ignition

02-03-2010, 11:44 AM

. When prices skyrocket, that simply means there are barely enough cards in supply for given demand, so you're hitting that threshold of players not getting in the format due to the availability regardless.

Well, this is just flat out wrong, and has been gone over before (in this thread even).

Once the price on cards gets high enough some people will want to cash out and sell their cards. There will always be at least a few cards being sold of any type. If demand gets so high that the cards are too popular to stay up on Ebay, the price will just go up until there will be a surplus on the market. It's quite simple really.

BenBleiweiss

02-03-2010, 11:56 AM

Hey guys:

A lot of good points and counterpoints made here, and most of the topics brought up on the last couple of pages on this thread will be addressed in my free-side article next Thursday. Of the posts made, I'd say that my leanings are most towards this one:

Thibg is, there is limited amount of staples already (simply because they're out of print, and weren't printed in high amounts). When prices skyrocket, that simply means there are barely enough cards in supply for given demand, so you're hitting that threshold of players not getting in the format due to the availability regardless.

I would be surprised if GP: Barcelona gets under 2000 players, and if GP: Columbus gets under 1500. Tournament attendance across the board is skyrocketing from where it was three, two, even one year ago - and not just at the Grand Prix level, but at the local tournament level, on multiple continents. The huge surge in EDH interest (casual arena) has also helped raise the price of cards.

It is undeniable that Magic, as a whole, is more popular than it's been in a long time, and possibly ever. Every data point suggests this - sales, traffic on websites dedicated to Magic, forums post counts on forums dedicated to Magic, tournament attendance, ancillary products related to Magic that succeed (Duels of the Planeswalkers), Magic Online business.

If you buy the conceit that Magic as a game is going through a boom period, and that there are likely 2-3x more players who play Magic than two years ago, is it at all shocking that card prices are surging through the roof? There are 2-3x as many players looking to get older staples, and zero extra older staples being printed to meet the demand on the market.

Don't think that Legacy is alone in this price surge - Extended and Standard are getting hit by the new economics of Magic as well, right now.

- Ben

Otter

02-03-2010, 12:16 PM

Don't think that Legacy is alone in this price surge - Extended and Standard are getting hit by the new economics of Magic as well, right now.
- Ben

Legacy may not be alone in price surges, but I'm pretty sure that it's the only format that suffers from hoarding and ridiculous price markups. We had a player in this very thread (or maybe it was the other price thread from last week, I forget) admit that he bought up every Sea Drake on the internet to jack the price up to forty bucks. I'm pretty sure that Walletslayer Angel costs fifty bucks because of the out of control demand from the vast pool of standard players. While maybe some people bought a couple extra Baneslayers in case the price went up, it's not a fifty dollar rare because one guy bought every Baneslayer on the market and then put them back on ebay at fifty for the hell of it. I know Portal 2 didn't exactly have a gigantic print run, but by someone's own admission, they doubled the price on Sea Drake just because they could. Nobody even plays Faerie Stompy, I don't think I've ever run across someone playing it in person, so I'd be really skeptical about some giant influx of players fighting to the death for every last Sea Drake on the market, causing a boom in its price. I don't think it's just "more demand" sculpting these legacy prices, there's also the factor of people knowing that they can jack the prices up as high as they want and there's not much we can do about it. It's not like we can go out and buy packs of Tempest in order to get the cards we need, to balance out the market if they're sold for too much as singles.

Occam

02-03-2010, 12:22 PM

Hi everyone,

I've tried to stay out of this discussion as it obviously isn't going to end well, and because I don't want to dilute my enjoyment of the game by reducing it to a case study in economics and ethics. I just wanted to throw some of my thoughts out there.

I don't think that Ben (and other dealers by extrapolation) has done anything unethical or is intentionally hurting the game. Yes, dealers do have a vested interest in the continued sustainability of their markets, and the health of the game's premier (in terms of popularity and perceived accessibility) eternal format is strongly correlated to that as longer periods of time will result in the majority of cards in the magic cardpool being part of the Legacy format as compared to Extended or Standard. The same way weapons manufacturers would like an ideal scenario in which wars break out everywhere, as long as all the bullets miss their intended targets. However, the first and foremost concern of dealers is to look after their bottom lines. It sounds crass, but it's true. Ben & Jerry's wouldn't be able to give so much back to society if it made as much as the old guy selling ice cream at a corner kiosk. As long as there is an adequately large proportion of the player base willing to pay inflated amount X for card Y, I cannot fault dealers for pricing card Y at amount X. From the number of magic players who try to make a quick buck out of arbitrage, and a look over on motl will confirm this, it must be put across that as long as someone is willing to pay inflated amount X, someone is going to supply the necessary amount, while offering to pay an amount below X for each card Y. It's exactly the same as a wage spiral, and is often a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't have a problem with dealers, who in actuality provide a service to the magic community (mostly through liquidity and risk minimisation), profitting from pricing abnormalities.

To illustrate, if some players are willing to pay $100 for each Tarmogoy right now while the lagging price is say $80, there will be players who buy Tarmogoyfs at $80 to sell at $100, making the $20 in riskless arbitrage profit. As the demand for $80 increases to fulfil the demand for those willing to pay for $100 Tarmos, the price goes upwards above $80, and continues to increase until it hits $100 or thereabouts. After that, all it takes is another group of players who are willing to pay $120, and the cycle starts anew. That is why hyperbole and sky-falling predictions can be harmful in my opinion.

As for whether this is harmful with regards to the Legacy scene, everyone has already spoken out with regards to the pros and cons of a price increase with relation to newer formats, but that essentially pushes Legacy towards being Vintage 2.0, which in the long-run is likely what the game is going to tend towards. Circumventing that for the sake of avoiding argument, I think that Wizards basically have two real options to solve the issue. The first would involve strategic reprintings. Cards like Grim Tutor and Imperial Recruiter, which basially exist in a bubble of sorts because they were from small-print sets that were initially non-legal. The second is a bit more controversial, and involves power creep. Printing cards that essentially power up borderline strategies or create new ones could reduce the necessity of certain staples and cause price increases to be a lot more uniform by creating a larger number of staples, especially as newly printed cards will be available in large quantities. I don't think either is a perfect solution, and that it'll probably take a combination of both, but I think Wizards has a pretty thankless task right now. If they do certain reprints, there WILL be repercussions from the secondary market, and if they don't, prices will follow a general trend of increase based on speculation and a form of herd mentality (I mean this in the nicest way possible). If they use power creep to create or empower archetypes, they face similar complaints, mostly from Salvation. It really is a thankless task.

As far as keeping the secondary market happy goes, I think players (and collectors) need to accept a certain tradeoff for the health of the game. I think that certain staples like the duals and power should not be reprinted, but am glad to see that Wizards is likely reprinting BSA despite thought that it would not happen after BSAs exploded in value. We're lucky that the hobby that we're invested in has a high resell value, but anyone in the game simply to make a buck or two probably doesn't deserve sympathy in the event that the sky does fall on certain cards. You live by the sword and so on. I'm probably quite lucky in that I've quite a few of the staples that I spotted and bought early, and that a lot of the valuable stuff in my collection aren't concerned with reprints, but I would accept reprints at the cost of some monetary value, no questions asked. That Legacy has a higher buy-in than newer formats is inevitable, but hopefully that impact is lessened with Wizards taking the correct action. That prices have exploded due to increased Legacy coverage isn't necessarily a bad thing either. Prices were always going to increase with a larger number of sanctioned tournaments. Saying that the increased coverage has retrospectively harmed Legacy is like saying that we Legacy players are content to be sitting at the bottom of a well -- better to shoulder the fallout now and place trust in Wizards and common sense to take care of the rest. If all else fails, sanctioning official proxies could be a quick and dirty way to curb artificial inflation.

All in all, the magic market can never be fully efficient without a short-selling mechanism, but that brings its own issues. I'm not overly concerned with rising prices, and am glad that the general concensus here isn't one of panic or finger-pointing at Wizards.

*Group hug*

Edit: Oh, I also wanted to note that this isn't similar to the subprime crisis in an important way. The issue with magic is that people have been driving up prices by speculation or by having more spare cash than others while being able to pay. The issue with the subprime crisis was that people were literally betting their homes on the assumption that floating interest rates wouldn't increase and that home prices would not consequently fall, while speculating in other investments based on home mortgages. The homeowners made bets based on something they didn't own. Magic players are just overreacting to exaggerated market movements.

andrew77

02-03-2010, 12:28 PM

You would have to buy a crazy amount of baneslayers to impact the price. There would also be a certain top end price as it is still in print and eventually everyone would just buy m10 as it would be profitable to open boxes.

The hoarding of legacy staples is somewhat exaggerated as well. It is easy to impact prices on ebay though, but that is because people are stupid. Once someone pays $200 for tabernacle it makes other people feel comfortable with doing that and then once a few people have paid $200 for tabernacle's even more people will do it until that becomes the accepted price. Personally, I don't have a problem with tabernacle being $200 as it is a staple in a number of tier 1 decks. What bothers me is moat at $140 and goyf at $60+. Back in September people were having a hard time moving goyfs at $30 and now everyone is willing to pay $60 for them. Its not like goyf was a bad card back then.

Alpha and beta duals have also skyrocketed. I remember seeing a number of alpha tundra's in nm- condition selling for $170-$230 a few months ago. Now a nm- tundra will easily break $300. Or the volcanics that are breaking $500 when they weren't even hitting $300 before. Absolutely ridiculous even for something as rare as alpha/beta duals. Why did people suddenly decide they wanted to spend twice as much on the same cards?

Bardo

02-03-2010, 12:39 PM

Even though we're ~350 posts in, I can feel this thread heading downhill, with all that implies.

If you're going to participate in this discussion, make it relevant and be polite. Research your facts when you can, etc.

Thanks.

MMogg

02-03-2010, 07:01 PM

The second is a bit more controversial, and involves power creep. Printing cards that essentially power up borderline strategies or create new ones could reduce the necessity of certain staples and cause price increases to be a lot more uniform by creating a larger number of staples, especially as newly printed cards will be available in large quantities.

But I think Tarmogoyf pretty much smashes that theory to bits. Thanks Wizards for my no longer needing that hard-to-find common Wearbear. :tongue:

However, the first and foremost concern of dealers is to look after their bottom lines. It sounds crass, but it's true.

Yes and no. This idea is a very old-fashioned, out-moded way of looking at organizations and businesses. My major is Leadership & Management and there are a lot of different perspectives one could offer on this statement you made, for example, some businesses may cut into their "bottom line" to preserve some core value that allows their business to continue. In this new century there is a rather large consensus that adaptation to change and being able to weather unknown (known as "discontinuous" in the jargon) changes is what will divide between successful businesses and those that fail. Anyway, I don't feel like getting into this too deeply (I'm tired of studying this stuff), but I just wanted to point out that statements like you made are quite tunnel-visioned and don't look at the bigger, more holistic view of organizational understanding. I guess it would greatly depend on the organization's/dealer's core values (even if unspoken) that guide his/her business. Is it "cards in stock no matter what the cost" or would it be "lowest prices anywhere", which may lead to a lot of [out of stock]? Each dealer has to forge his/her own business path.

Occam

02-04-2010, 12:17 AM

But I think Tarmogoyf pretty much smashes that theory to bits. Thanks Wizards for my no longer needing that hard-to-find common Wearbear. :tongue:

Well, power creep, not power leap, to be fair. In certain intelligent increments, we could easily see a diverse field instead of a blue-dominated one, which would probably even out price increases somewhat.

Yes and no. This idea is a very old-fashioned, out-moded way of looking at organizations and businesses. My major is Leadership & Management and there are a lot of different perspectives one could offer on this statement you made, for example, some businesses may cut into their "bottom line" to preserve some core value that allows their business to continue. In this new century there is a rather large consensus that adaptation to change and being able to weather unknown (known as "discontinuous" in the jargon) changes is what will divide between successful businesses and those that fail. Anyway, I don't feel like getting into this too deeply (I'm tired of studying this stuff), but I just wanted to point out that statements like you made are quite tunnel-visioned and don't look at the bigger, more holistic view of organizational understanding. I guess it would greatly depend on the organization's/dealer's core values (even if unspoken) that guide his/her business. Is it "cards in stock no matter what the cost" or would it be "lowest prices anywhere", which may lead to a lot of [out of stock]? Each dealer has to forge his/her own business path.

I'm not saying that the bottom line is the only thing that is looked at. Far from it. I'm saying that given a choice between looking after one's bottom line, especially if a company is public and has to create value for its shareholders, and altruism, the bottom line has to take precedence because (and I say this as someone who has done consulting work with SMEs as well as having spoken to quite a few members of the local VC community) a healthy bottom line is exactly what enables a company to be altruistic. Which is why McDs sponsors the Olympics and Joe Diners does not. And yes, the way a business operates is often based around the vision and personal values of its founder, like say Virgin basically lives and breathes Richard Branson. However, without going into the necessities of differentiation and USPs (which essentially cover the core values which you speak of) which are probably going to be muddled into the discussion, a business still needs to be sustainable, and that involves paying attention to the bottom line IF there is a choice between sustainability or CSR. Ideally, both, of course. That's not even taking into account other issues which push magic stores into being profit-seeking. For instance, debt covenants, venture capital pressure and so on. It doesn't paint a holistic picture to say that businesses look only at bottom lines existentially, but it isn't wrong by any stretch of the imagination to say that a firm's bottom line takes precedence over all else. For instance, studies have shown that companies adopting CSR guidelines, and companies having better corporate governance, outperform those that do poorly in those areas, but the cynic/realist in plenty of people see those as decisions made with at least an eye on bottom lines as well, or at least conscious decisions to inprove public perception of a firm, not necessarily out of the goodness of one's heart.

Another important issue here is that, paraphrasing my earlier post, magic essentially functions as a market in close to perfect competition a lot of the time. Look around motl for instance, where the majority of the time a seller gets slated for having prices above the motl average, save for those who have accrued a good reputation. The point is that as long as people are willing to pay price X, it doesn't matter if dealers sell at price Y, where Y is lower than X, because backpack dealers will just buy at Y and sell at X as long as demand at X exists and X is bigger than Y. That is primarily why I don't feel that dealers are morally bankrupt in any way. There's a lot of monkey see monkey do with regards to paying certain prices for cards.

MMogg

02-04-2010, 12:42 AM

I'm not saying that the bottom line is the only thing that is looked at. Far from it. I'm saying that given a choice between looking after one's bottom line, especially if a company is public and has to create value for its shareholders, and altruism, the bottom line has to take precedence because (and I say this as someone who has done consulting work with SMEs as well as having spoken to quite a few members of the local VC community) a healthy bottom line is exactly what enables a company to be altruistic. Which is why McDs sponsors the Olympics and Joe Diners does not. And yes, the way a business operates is often based around the vision and personal values of its founder, like say Virgin basically lives and breathes Richard Branson. However, without going into the necessities of differentiation and USPs (which essentially cover the core values which you speak of) which are probably going to be muddled into the discussion, a business still needs to be sustainable, and that involves paying attention to the bottom line IF there is a choice between sustainability or CSR. Ideally, both, of course. That's not even taking into account other issues which push magic stores into being profit-seeking. For instance, debt covenants, venture capital pressure and so on. It doesn't paint a holistic picture to say that businesses look only at bottom lines existentially, but it isn't wrong by any stretch of the imagination to say that a firm's bottom line takes precedence over all else. For instance, studies have shown that companies adopting CSR guidelines, and companies having better corporate governance, outperform those that do poorly in those areas, but the cynic/realist in plenty of people see those as decisions made with at least an eye on bottom lines as well, or at least conscious decisions to inprove public perception of a firm, not necessarily out of the goodness of one's heart.

Another important issue here is that, paraphrasing my earlier post, magic essentially functions as a market in close to perfect competition a lot of the time. Look around motl for instance, where the majority of the time a seller gets slated for having prices above the motl average, save for those who have accrued a good reputation. The point is that as long as people are willing to pay price X, it doesn't matter if dealers sell at price Y, where Y is lower than X, because backpack dealers will just buy at Y and sell at X as long as demand at X exists and X is bigger than Y. That is primarily why I don't feel that dealers are morally bankrupt in any way. There's a lot of monkey see monkey do with regards to paying certain prices for cards.

But, the only point I was trying to make – and it seems you agree to some extent – is that vision and core values are at the locus of a company, not the bottom line. Naturally you cannot ignore "the bottom line" as you cannot ignore so many other things, and just as human beings need air, food and water to live, a company cannot sustainably lose money. No one would argue against that. But it seems that as you mention massive corporations like Virgin, Ben & Jerry's, MacDonald's, etc., they all have very strong visions/values/cultures. Magic stores are by and large not those massive corporations, although a handful aspire to. Perhaps by paying more attention to formulating a vision and identifying core values they could grow into a more successful company.

I too am not pointing any fingers. I'm just saying that "the bottom line" (I hate that term by the way) is not always the focus and nor should it always be (to which you agreed). For example, I can think of a company losing money on a transaction to ensure customer satisfaction being one area where "the bottom line" becomes secondary to customer service interests. I dislike the term "the bottom line" because does that mean transactional bottom line, or general fiscal period bottom line, or unique incident analysis bottom line (as in placating a regular customer and losing money on one transaction will still facilitate future transactions), etc?

I think we're generally on the same page and generally agree. Actually, you probably understand all this more than me if you're a consultant. =]

Occam

02-04-2010, 12:56 AM

But, the only point I was trying to make – and it seems you agree to some extent – is that vision and core values are at the locus of a company, not the bottom line. Naturally you cannot ignore "the bottom line" as you cannot ignore so many other things, and just as human beings need air, food and water to live, a company cannot sustainably lose money. No one would argue against that. But it seems that as you mention massive corporations like Virgin, Ben & Jerry's, MacDonald's, etc., they all have very strong visions/values/cultures. Magic stores are by and large not those massive corporations, although a handful aspire to. Perhaps by paying more attention to formulating a vision and identifying core values they could grow into a more successful company.

I too am not pointing any fingers. I'm just saying that "the bottom line" (I hate that term by the way) is not always the focus and nor should it always be (to which you agreed). For example, I can think of a company losing money on a transaction to ensure customer satisfaction being one area where "the bottom line" becomes secondary to customer service interests. I dislike the term "the bottom line" because does that mean transactional bottom line, or general fiscal period bottom line, or unique incident analysis bottom line (as in placating a regular customer and losing money on one transaction will still facilitate future transactions), etc?

I think we're generally on the same page and generally agree. Actually, you probably understand all this more than me if you're a consultant. =]

I think a lot of our disagreement, if there was ever one, was over us essentially agreeing in roundabout fashion.

As far as the Virgins or Apples of the world go, they're often not good examples of core values taking precedence over profits, as large MNCs are by definition the exceptions rather than the norm. A startup tech company may find it a lot more difficult to balance its values with its profits as compared to IBM, for instance. It's a lot like telling a budding tennis player that he needs to have Federer's entire game, both his tennis game and his mental game. Well, it's something you aspire towards, but with the restriction that Federer is the exception in tennis, not the norm.

I recall myself giving a couple of startup pitches when I was at uni, and the one thing that was scrutinised above all else were the company's finances. The reasoning was that everything about the company, from its USPs to its vision to its market segmentation, all flow downwards into financial figures. Even the example you gave about customer compensation in the case of a dispute can be broken down into financial terms, as the lost goodwill was worth more than the compensation. I'm sure you've done plenty of case studies on Pareto principles (80/20) and all that, being a management major, and should know better than me that most companies actively "cull" its loss-generating customers where possible and where applicable.

In the end, I don't think we're actually in disagreement, and I'm pretty glad it didn't descend into an argument over what essentially is a hobby anyway. And I'm not a consultant. :)

MMogg

02-04-2010, 01:47 AM

I think a lot of our disagreement, if there was ever one, was over us essentially agreeing in roundabout fashion.

As far as the Virgins or Apples of the world go, they're often not good examples of core values taking precedence over profits, as large MNCs are by definition the exceptions rather than the norm. A startup tech company may find it a lot more difficult to balance its values with its profits as compared to IBM, for instance. It's a lot like telling a budding tennis player that he needs to have Federer's entire game, both his tennis game and his mental game. Well, it's something you aspire towards, but with the restriction that Federer is the exception in tennis, not the norm.

Couldn't agree more.

I recall myself giving a couple of startup pitches when I was at uni, and the one thing that was scrutinised above all else were the company's finances. The reasoning was that everything about the company, from its USPs to its vision to its market segmentation, all flow downwards into financial figures. Even the example you gave about customer compensation in the case of a dispute can be broken down into financial terms, as the lost goodwill was worth more than the compensation. I'm sure you've done plenty of case studies on Pareto principles (80/20) and all that, being a management major, and should know better than me that most companies actively "cull" its loss-generating customers where possible and where applicable.

Ha! I have no idea what that means. Funny isn't it? My Leadership and Management education is in the field of education. Even courses I took like Resource Management and Human Resource Management have been more concerned with re-framing preconceived notions of what those are than applicable "how-to" knowledge. The corporate organizational literature I've read is primarily focused on the social and theoretical underpinnings of organizations rather than real-world financial operations. Basically I know how to organize, manage and lead people who know how to run the finances (and other departments) of an organization. :wink:

In the end, I don't think we're actually in disagreement, and I'm pretty glad it didn't descend into an argument over what essentially is a hobby anyway. And I'm not a consultant. :)

You see, that's management training for ya: amiable discussions that get to the core of disagreements without being disagreeable. :wink::tongue:

This is a hobby?! :wink: For some people it's their livelihood.

Another financial area no one has really touched on is understanding where the optimal line/cost is of a chase rare. Wizards likes chase rares and not for the evil hand-rubbing greed, but just for the excitement. I think they like the players to open packs and feel excited when they open a Baneslayer Angel. I just wonder where the optimal line/value is between "Yay, I finally got a playset of XYZ, I'm so excited" and "Screw this shite. Let's play some ping pong." I think chase rares and excitement over a set are essential and healthy for the game. I worked in a Magic shop when Legions was released and that was demoralizing and bad for the game.

Mr.C

02-04-2010, 03:03 AM

And then whatever out-of-print cards are used in those decks skyrocket as well. Now what? :cry:

Obviously, the cycle will continue until someone breaks Phyrexian Portal in half.

jazzykat

02-04-2010, 03:25 AM

I'm older than most on here and I have what I consider to be a very good job. I personally don't have a problem paying for cards. In fact I have extra playsets of duals, fetches, etc.

I've also been watching this thread closely because I'm concerned about Legacy in 2 years. This year it has an unprecedented level of interest and card prices for whatever reason are increasing drastically. What happens when all these gpers who don't have the right legacy cards get smashed by real decks. Many of the johny come latelies are probably going to assume mostly correctly they can't compete unless they drop at least a grand up front.

SCG and other online retailers should charge as much as the market will bear. If people want to hoard loyal retainers that is awesome. If you want to tie up your life savings in dual lands that's great but remember this is a game governed by a corporation, hasbro. They are also maximizing their profits and can do whatever they want with the game.

SomeRandomDude

02-04-2010, 08:46 AM

caiomarcos

02-04-2010, 11:00 AM

Tychoides

02-04-2010, 11:08 AM

As someone who has recently started playing Magic again and choosing to play Legacy so that I can use all my old cards, I have been doing a lot of buying to pick up things I've missed and to fill out some playsets and I have definitely been seeing the prices first hand. I agree that sometimes it seems excessive, but then I remember that some of those cards are still used in formats like Standard and Extended and it just makes sense because of demand being so high (Tarmogoyf, Baneslayer Angel, etc.)

I also see a lot of subtle and not-so-subtle dislike for how SCG (and other stores too) determine their prices and I have to say that personally, I am willing to buy from them and I am even one of those people willing to pay them a little bit more because I've had nothing but fantastic dealings with them and I know that they do a lot for Magic in general, especially in VA. Being in the same state also is nice for shipping purposes too! :)

Anyway, I've been getting my friends back into the game and playing Legacy with them and one of the things I noticed and really like is that they haven't had to spend much money to make cool, good decks that have even taken out some of the "decks to beat" or "established decks" that I've put together to try out. I think that actually says a lot about this format: Even if you're building and piloting a well-known deck, it's possible that you can run across some off-the-wall deck that might have something in it that can just wreck you. Would you face them after the first round or so at a tournament? Probably not, but still it shows that sometimes cost isn't everything and that it can help increase innovation in the long run for Legacy.

I think it's hard to see that when you look at a card like Tarmogoyf that's being put into every deck that can run him and the card price going through the roof, but he's just as easily killed by a cheap card like any other creature too. :)

ryO!

02-04-2010, 11:29 AM

I'm surprised that wizard hasn't don't something like reprint dual in the from of, from the vault. I'm not saying that it would be the best thing for the game (or the worst) but, the shear amount of money they would make off it would be staggering. Everyone would be running out to get them, look at what happend with exiled... Wizard and SCG are out to make money and you can't blame them for that, it's the nature of the beast. Plus, this way it wouldn't effect the other formats.

I for one would like nice shiny land. :tongue:

First and foremost foil is the worst thing that ever happened to MTG, taste speaking of course (kind of subjective i know!). So, the second worst thing that could ever happen to duals, after being reprinted, is being reprinted as foil. Why? Simply because, as the most common taste is the bad one and as the only way to reprint those cards (fow, duals, mox, etc) is in a FTV box, please guess what that would mean? Nothing but pushing the prices up even more if they were reprinted (imagine US japanese foil?).
It's also stupid to think that it's that easy for Hasbro to earn money, if they ever follow your "strategy" that will only lead to the end of MTG.
About reprinting cards like Loyal retainers, imperial recruiter, ravages of war, grim tutor that's also pointless, because their price of those doesn't affect the meta that much, it's not like those are broken at all nor those are X4 in all Tier 1&2 decks . . . We just need to be patient, hoping at some point no one will buy staples for such tremendous prices, and the market will regulate itself alone.
Reprinting like crazy isn't a sustainable option to counter speculation on a long term. On the other hand, maybe a smart reprint could help : Something like a pack of cards carefully sorted white bodered and whithout foil, just like the old chronicles.

I remember when Berserk cost around $80, and that wasn't that long ago. I just ebayed it and you can get a foil one for around $27. Reprints doesn't mean a price spike. If you can provide examples I would be more inclined to belive you. And how is making money going to end magic? If they don't make money they won't make cards... And why did the
make enemy fetchlands? To make money and that didn't kill the game.
I also said that it may not be the best idea, but surprised that they didn't do something like that to make money. Hasbro is know to do anything to make money.
(I also like the idea of chronicles 2 but don't see that happening)

since when berserk is a good card/a staple ?
what is the link between reprinting like crazy and creating a new card (enemy fetch) ?

SomeRandomDude

02-04-2010, 12:04 PM

First and foremost foil is the worst thing that ever happened to MTG, taste speaking of course (kind of subjective i know!). So, the second worst thing that could ever happen to duals, after being reprinted, is being reprinted as foil. Why? Simply because, as the most common taste is the bad one and as the only way to reprint those cards (fow, duals, mox, etc) is in a FTV box, please guess what that would mean? Nothing but pushing the prices up even more if they were reprinted (imagine US japanese foil?).
It's also stupid to think that it's that easy for Hasbro to earn money, if they ever follow your "strategy" that will only lead to the end of MTG.
About reprinting cards like Loyal retainers, imperial recruiter, ravages of war, grim tutor that's also pointless, because their price of those doesn't affect the meta that much, it's not like those are broken at all nor those are X4 in all Tier 1&2 decks . . . We just need to be patient, hoping at some point no one will buy staples for such tremendous prices, and the market will regulate itself alone.
Reprinting like crazy isn't a sustainable option to counter speculation on a long term. On the other hand, maybe a smart reprint could help : Something like a pack of cards carefully sorted white bodered and whithout foil, just like the old chronicles.
I remember when Berserk cost around $80, and that wasn't that long ago. I just ebayed it and you can get a foil one for around $27. Reprints doesn't mean a price spike. If you can provide examples I would be more inclined to belive you. And how is making money going to end magic? If they don't make money they won't make cards... And why did the
make enemy fetchlands? To make money and that didn't kill the game.
I also said that it may not be the best idea, but surprised that they didn't do something like that to make money. Hasbro is know to do anything to make money.
(I also like the idea of chronicles 2 but don't see that happening)

MattH

02-04-2010, 12:44 PM

Reprinting like crazy isn't a sustainable option to counter speculation on a long term. On the other hand, maybe a smart reprint could help : Something like a pack of cards carefully sorted white bodered and whithout foil, just like the old chronicles.

Jesus christ.

The absolute best way to get Wizards to reject an idea is to say it will be "just like Chronicles".

ryO!

02-04-2010, 01:30 PM

Jesus christ.

The absolute best way to get Wizards to reject an idea is to say it will be "just like Chronicles".

I think that you've missed something.
"Something like a pack of cards carefully sorted white bodered and whithout foil, just like the old chronicles."
what i meant by chronicles is WB + no foil nothing else.
Then what i meant by carefully sorted is all those cards that have increased way to much (SnT, DH, Entomb, tarmo, Scroll rack ... whatever that is the hardest & most sensitive part anyway) so legacy start to turn into vintage2.0
By doing this you allow new comers to buy old cards that have gone too high for decent prices as they won't be foil, nor really hard to find and white bordered. It won't be playable in T2 so that won't interfere with this format. finally, the orginal edition of the card will more or less keep its price.
So "theorically" (i ll give you that) it will be a win for everyone or at least no big loss (Hasbro, New comers, Collectors).

HAVE HEART

02-04-2010, 01:33 PM

What bothers me is moat at $140 and goyf at $60+. Back in September people were having a hard time moving goyfs at $30 and now everyone is willing to pay $60 for them. Its not like goyf was a bad card back then.

Alpha and beta duals have also skyrocketed. I remember seeing a number of alpha tundra's in nm- condition selling for $170-$230 a few months ago. Now a nm- tundra will easily break $300. Or the volcanics that are breaking $500 when they weren't even hitting $300 before. Absolutely ridiculous even for something as rare as alpha/beta duals. Why did people suddenly decide they wanted to spend twice as much on the same cards?

Tarmogoyf is actually $70 on the "cheap," and up to $100 on certain websites. I have the same problem you do, in that Tarmogoyf has not changed at all over the past year, but its price has more than doubled; same with the Alpha/Beta duals (price has not doubled, but increased significantly). There have been no cards printed that have made Tarmogoyf or duals better, so it is astounding to see their prices increase so dramatically. Though, it seems to me that if a person wanted Tarmogoyf, they would have gotten it when it was $25 after rotation, so why would people be buying them now if they did not want them then? All I know is that if Tarmogoyf gets to a steady $100, then I will be Goyf'less. My friend and I were joking that at $100 each, a playset of Tarmogoyf will buy three months-worth of burritos.

Nizmox

02-04-2010, 04:18 PM

I think that you've missed something.
"Something like a pack of cards carefully sorted white bodered and whithout foil, just like the old chronicles."
what i meant by chronicles is WB + no foil nothing else.
Then what i meant by carefully sorted is all those cards that have increased way to much (SnT, DH, Entomb, tarmo, Scroll rack ... whatever that is the hardest & most sensitive part anyway) so legacy start to turn into vintage2.0
By doing this you allow new comers to buy old cards that have gone too high for decent prices as they won't be foil, nor really hard to find and white bordered. It won't be playable in T2 so that won't interfere with this format. finally, the orginal edition of the card will more or less keep its price.
So "theorically" (i ll give you that) it will be a win for everyone or at least no big loss (Hasbro, New comers, Collectors).

What he said...

I actually believe this is the best solution.
Make a new set named Collectors Edition or Chronicles 2 contaning reprints of popular legacy black bordered cards. Make all the reprints white bordered and with no foils. This keeps collectors happy as the original version of the card they own is still the 'best bersion' and while the price may drop a little due to increased demand, black bordered is still going to be the most sought after. The set can be made to be not standard legal (unless the cards legal in standard through another set) and new players will now have a means to access the cards.
This should solve most of legacys supply problems. I'm not sure how you could do white bordered reprints though (I.e. Duals). You need to do it in such a way that the new card is not more sought after than the old version. Perhaps all cards in this set could be printed with a new colour border (not white, black or gold) that differentiates them from the original duals and also highlights they are not standard legal.

I'm not someone who is in magic to make money I'm in magic to play the game. I don't care if they reprint my costly cards on the condition they don't print a version that's 'cooler' than the original I have.

dahcmai

02-04-2010, 05:00 PM

Jesus christ.

The absolute best way to get Wizards to reject an idea is to say it will be "just like Chronicles".

Matt said it best. You guys must not have been playing when Chronicles came out or something. Chronicles just about rolled Wizards into a failing company. It was the worst mistake they ever made and that includes printing Tolarian Academy and shit like that.

When Chronicles came out it caused an uproar like no one expected. People went frigging nuts over it whining and bitching to no end. It caused the prices of cards to fall through the floor and people got pissed and quit the game like never before. Elder Dragon Legends were worth quite a bit back then and reprinting them turned them from the card that was worth $20 because it was cool (ie hard as hell to pack) into the card that was worth 10 cents because it wasn't all that cool anymore and it wasn't playable either.

The Reserve list is a direct answer of Chronicles. They decided to draw people back in they needed to declare what they would make "collectible" and not reprint. It's the whole reason the list exists at all.

I'm sure there's plenty of people out there still who would go fucking nuts if they did anything remotely close to Chronicles again. Wizards will steer away from that embarrassment again by a mile. I'm actually amazed they are going as close to it by printing that Negator shown in another thread. I kind of figured they would leave it to the realm of Judge Promos to reprint anything from that list.

luckme10

02-04-2010, 06:25 PM

workingdude

02-04-2010, 07:37 PM

Excuse me for saying the obvious, but can't they just start allowing proxies at DCI sanctioned tournaments? I'm sure if they do, it'll become more casually accepted as well. Also, Tarmogoyf is currently listed at 52.00 at motl trading prices, albeit there's been a 52 cent increase for this week.

Wizards wont allow DCI sanctioned tournaments with proxies because who would buy cards when you can just print them yourself?

Also, MOTL price guides are either based on monthly or weekly data. Changes in recent days are not fully reflected in these guides.

MattH

02-05-2010, 04:27 PM

Channelfireball has 28 Tarmogoyfs at $99 (and one foil at $199, lol). Check that number as days go by to see if any are actually selling at that price.

Alternately, check the ebay completed listings. (http://completed.shop.ebay.com/i.html?MA2ShowItems&_ipg=50&_sadis=200&LH_SALE_CURRENCY=0&_in_kw=1&_sacat=See-All-Categories&_samihi=&_samilow=&_fpos=Zip+code&_oexkw=&_udhi=&_udlo=&_rdc=1&_sop=12&_ex_kw=&_nkw=tarmogoyf&_dmd=1&_okw=tarmogoyf&LH_Complete=1&_fsct=&guest=1) The completed auctions from today and yesterday were:

4x for $320
4x for $250
3x for $190
4x for $265
a poorly painted one for $37 that is possibly not tournament legal
3x for $147
4x for $280
3x for $212

Discounting the painted one, that gives an mean of $66.56 and a median of around $70. ebay prices are naturally the lowest, and Starcity's are always among the highest. So the 'real' price of goyf is probably right now around $75-80.

yawg07

02-05-2010, 11:44 PM

Hahaha that painted one was on my gf's account. I picked that thing up for free pretty much.
It was SO terrible, I'd say local tourneys it is okay, definitely not GP. What the hell man, people are crazy.

luckme10

02-06-2010, 06:36 AM

This is the real tragedy.
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9356/goff.jpg

Rune

02-06-2010, 06:59 AM

Just out of curiousity, why would this not be tournament legal?

MattH

02-06-2010, 10:26 AM

If the paint makes it thick enough that someone can pick it out blind with better than random chance, then it's not legal.

yawg07

02-06-2010, 10:50 AM

Also the card is warped a bit and the back is messed up in spots. You can feel it on the front in a sleeve, and if you press real hard, the back.
It is REALLY REALLY bad, that idiot who painted it had no idea what he was doing.
In a local tourney it would be okay, but you take it to anything larger and you'll get fucked.

The joke going around was that it is a REALISTIC Tarmogoyf, because it FEELS like a real one would feel XD

He did the trops I had to fix, but he didn't warp or destroy those, so I was able to fix them with some sandpaper and a sharp edge.

Tha Gunslinga

02-06-2010, 11:00 AM

Yeah, I saw the cheap BIN on that guy, and almost got it, but figured it was better not to waste my time.

majikal

02-06-2010, 11:35 AM

This is the real tragedy.
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/9356/goff.jpg
OH MY GOD THE LAUGHTER HURTS! xD

Shugyosha

02-06-2010, 05:32 PM

I guess this didn't come up so far. While searching for a completely different article on SCG I stumbled over this passage from the article: "Force of Will: Nervous Yet? A Reply To Peter Jahn" by Will Rieffer 2002

Take note that Legacy didn't even exist then.

Peter says...

"There is another reason that Wizards rotated the sets as they did, and it is the same reason that T1 cannot be a PTQ/Grand Prix format. There simply are not enough cards. Stephen D'Angelo has some interesting statistics on his site. What they show is that the number of cards in existence is not large enough to support all the PTQ players - if they were trying to play T1, where having the Power Nine is a huge advantage. Here are the approximate numbers of each card ever printed:

Each Power Nine card: 23,000
Each dual land: 312,000
Each Legends rare: 19,500
Each Ice Ages rare: 202,000"

In most cases if one even played a two-color deck the optimum would be four of the proper dual land. Divide 312,000 by four and you get 78,000. There are thus 78,000"sets" of dual lands, as opposed to 23,000 sets of the Power Nine. This leads to a question that I think that few players would be hard-pressed to answer accurately - namely, at what point do the numbers of a"staple" card fail to support a format in relation to the number of participants?

Source (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/2421_Force_of_Will_Nervous_Yet_A_Reply_To_Peter_Jahn.html)

So there are ~78.000 playsets of duals out there and DCI has listed ~34300 players with eternal rating worldwide. Both numbers have to be reduced by destroyed cards or players who quit etc. but technically there should be more than enough duals if everyone who needs them only has a playset or less but not more.

Which brings me straight to my second point. With the numbers low everyone who owns more than a playset of duals (and other old staples I guess) actially hurts the format as the prices keep raising and less people can afford it. When I read posts where people tell they have 20 Force of Wills and 12 Underground Seas I really see why the prices are high.

dahcmai

02-06-2010, 06:20 PM

That is really interesting that it is actually that low, especially the Legends Rares number.

Well, I played during the pre-Revised era and I can tell you for a fact that I know of at least several hundred went down the tubes during the "Iron Man" magic days of playing for Ante at least at our store. When you won, you got to destroy as many cards in the opponents deck as you shoved them below zero life. So if you knocked them down to -9 life, you tore up 9 cards of your choice and duals were a favorite to mutilate.

They weren't expensive really back then so it wasn't a big deal and I even saw a few Moxes go in the trash like that. No one ever did that to a Lotus (that one was still expensive), but tons of cards went to the can in those duels.

It was kind of like tearing up a Shadowmoor filter land now, not exactly a tear jerking moment so try to understand that. Alpha Lands were really rare around here since you couldn't play them back then at all. Basics galore went in the trash. I can't count how many of those turned into paper airplanes and such to fly around the store. I know that practice wasn't limited to us either. It was a pretty popular thing back then.

It does make you wonder how many exactly are destroyed now. It seems like there are so much more than that number.

MMogg

02-06-2010, 06:40 PM

About the whole Scroll Rack thing, I'm quite sure now that it was indeed SCG piling up on some more.
Ben wrote today in his article about how he believes Scroll Rack will be the new Natural Order, Grindstone or Undiscovered Paradise due to the printing of Treasure Hunt.

EDIT: RUN!!! SCROLL RACK TIME!!!

Meh. Prognosticating values is rarely accurate. Here is a best of Ben's take of M10 Mythics:

**Ajani Goldmane
Starting Price:$15
Future Price: $20

Baneslayer Ange\
Starting Price: $9.99
Future Price: $14.99

Darksteel Colossus
Starting Price: $12.49
Future Price: $12.49

Vampire Nocturnus
Starting Price: $2.49
Future Price: $3.99

All of those values are pretty far off the mark. I'd just be weary to take purchasing advice from others. Guessing values and basing values on presumptive performance is always a bad thing. Countless times cards/card interactions look sweet on paper, but never fulfill their promise in the real world of tournament Magic.

Tacosnape

02-08-2010, 11:08 AM

It isn't just even Tarmogoyfs. All the prices of everything are skyrocketing. Wastelands are at 20. Forces are at 30-35. Entomb's at 27.50. Seas are 60-80.

It's tragic that the entry price into this format has become so absurdly steep. Previously one of the best selling points of Legacy was that it was affordable when you compared it to the cost of maintaining a Standard deck over a year. And while this may be true with some of the new crap rares ranging 30-60 in the new set, still.

android

02-08-2010, 12:36 PM

umbowta

02-08-2010, 01:58 PM

Face it, the first time you saw this game (if you're now in your 30's), you probably laughed and were mildly embarrassed to purchase that first booster. Then you played the game and realized that maybe there was something to it. Something MAGICAL. Still, you never knew Force of Nature would fall so far from glory. You never knew that discarding a card and paying 1 life wouldn't outright lose the game for you. Who knew, seriously?

Back to my prediction (made somewhere-sometime last year). Underground Sea (Revised, pretty much any condition) will see a tag in excess of $100 this summer. Stabilizing. I thought maybe it was a slight stretch calling it last year but now it just seems obvious.

I own 9 Underground Seas and I still hope you're wrong. $100 a piece is just too much. They should be somewhere around $20-30 for the sake of the game while maintaining collectibility. I don't want to sell any of mine, even though I could make a killing, because it's really all about the game. I like having extras so that I can have two or three decks built simultaneously without proxies.

There will come a point though, when even I will be driven from the game by the stupid high prices. Even now I'm pissed because I would like to own a playset of Abyssal Persecutors, however, at $20 a pop, I'm not willing to buy any. Combine that with the fact that the rest of the set is garbage with few exceptions, and I'm not going to rip open packs either. Stupid effin Mythic rares.

MattH

02-08-2010, 04:10 PM

I own 9 Underground Seas and I still hope you're wrong. $100 a piece is just too much. They should be somewhere around $20-30 for the sake of the game while maintaining collectibility. I don't want to sell any of mine, even though I could make a killing, because it's really all about the game. I like having extras so that I can have two or three decks built simultaneously without proxies.

There will come a point though, when even I will be driven from the game by the stupid high prices. Even now I'm pissed because I would like to own a playset of Abyssal Persecutors, however, at $20 a pop, I'm not willing to buy any. Combine that with the fact that the rest of the set is garbage with few exceptions, and I'm not going to rip open packs either. Stupid effin Mythic rares.

Except that A.P. will likely come down in price, as there are few expectations of it being awesome in standard, and supply will be going up. It won't be a $5 card but it will likely settle in around $12-14.

Can't say either of those about duals.

luckme10

02-09-2010, 12:53 AM

Channelfireball just did a segment on Tarmogoyf: http://strategy.channelfireball.com/videos/magic-tv-extra-why-is-tarmogoyf-so-expensive/

Shugyosha

02-09-2010, 05:21 AM

I own 9 Underground Seas and I still hope you're wrong. $100 a piece is just too much. They should be somewhere around $20-30 for the sake of the game while maintaining collectibility. I don't want to sell any of mine, even though I could make a killing, because it's really all about the game. I like having extras so that I can have two or three decks built simultaneously without proxies.

There will come a point though, when even I will be driven from the game by the stupid high prices. Even now I'm pissed because I would like to own a playset of Abyssal Persecutors, however, at $20 a pop, I'm not willing to buy any. Combine that with the fact that the rest of the set is garbage with few exceptions, and I'm not going to rip open packs either. Stupid effin Mythic rares.

Well as I said before, you are one of the reasons of high prices yourself. Sitting on 9 U-Seas instead of the 4 you really only need decreases supply on the market and therefore lets the prices raise. Anyone owning more than a playset of old legacy staples has no right at all to complain about high prices.

plus_ten

02-09-2010, 07:22 AM

here will come a point though, when even I will be driven from the game by the stupid high prices.

How will you be driven from the game by "stupid high prices", if you have the cards necessary for play? Do you mean that the prices go above your everybody-has-a-price price, and you sell out? Then it's entirely your choice to quit and sell out. If you mean that you wont pay to play the latest hype deck (currently, it should be the show&tell-dream hall-progenitus)? If that is the case, then it is just a matter of play with what you've got. With 9 seas, I'd be surprised if you don't possess all the other staples for a huge variety of decks.

Anyone owning more than a playset of old legacy staples has no right at all to complain about high prices.

Agreed! In fact, anyone with just ONE playset should be content with the prices and not complain about that particular set, let along more. :eek:

However, we get to argue our side about the possibility of reprints causing our staples to tank :tongue:. Even worse, once legacy becomes a format for all, what is stopping a huge number of YGO youngsters from entering the format ruining the competitive scene? As someone mentioned before, legacy is a game of variety and skill played by friendly (& wealthy) opponents, not some whiny 10-year-old who just ripped 2 goyfs and a berserk from some of the latest $9.99 legacy booster and decide to play it in his mono-green elf-ramp-avatar of might deck.

When you sit across from a board of blue duals, yard of fetches and 4 cards-in-hand, (at least for now) you can almost be sure that your opponent has spent his time and money wisely on the cards and researched enough to approximate your next move. Standard has always been the format of the time-rich spoilt youngsters, where they have all the time in the world to crack packs & keep up with the cards and the meta. When they get to our age and we 'catch up' in terms of time, and they in terms of wealth and skill, they are free to join us in playing the deepest and most interactive format in magic. While it is true that cards will cost them dearly, the legacy meta can be assured that all its best decks are piloted by well-read, if not seasoned, players.

For now, my view on the rising prices: irrelevant :cool:. For now, let's hope the Have-nots will have some Haves to borrow cards from before they hit the deep end. Lol. Needless to say, my view on any legacy staple reprints is...

Nightmare

02-09-2010, 12:18 PM

However, we get to argue our side about the possibility of reprints causing our staples to tank :tongue:. Even worse, once legacy becomes a format for all, what is stopping a huge number of YGO youngsters from entering the format ruining the competitive scene? As someone mentioned before, legacy is a game of variety and skill played by friendly (& wealthy) opponents, not some whiny 10-year-old who just ripped 2 goyfs and a berserk from some of the latest $9.99 legacy booster and decide to play it in his mono-green elf-ramp-avatar of might deck.

When you sit across from a board of blue duals, yard of fetches and 4 cards-in-hand, (at least for now) you can almost be sure that your opponent has spent his time and money wisely on the cards and researched enough to approximate your next move. Standard has always been the format of the time-rich spoilt youngsters, where they have all the time in the world to crack packs & keep up with the cards and the meta. When they get to our age and we 'catch up' in terms of time, and they in terms of wealth and skill, they are free to join us in playing the deepest and most interactive format in magic. While it is true that cards will cost them dearly, the legacy meta can be assured that all its best decks are piloted by well-read, if not seasoned, players.

For now, my view on the rising prices: irrelevant :cool:. For now, let's hope the Have-nots will have some Haves to borrow cards from before they hit the deep end. Lol. Needless to say, my view on any legacy staple reprints is...

Much more so than the price of staples, I strongly believe it's YOU, or people with attitudes similar to yours, that is the real barrier of entry to the format. For someone so interested in the price of your cards, it seems ridiculous to want the format where they all get used to become insular and isolated from the rest of the market. Take away the demand, and the supply is irrelevant. See: Morphling.

Instead of pretending to be better than all of those kids playing YuGiOh - and believe me, I make as much fun of them as anyone - maybe when they try to play Magic you could support them and encourage them. The thing is, all those little kids who play their stompy decks get beat a bunch, which does nothing but increase prize support at the events you play in. That is unless, of course, they beat you with their stompy decks, in which case your opinion is irrelevant since you're basically a low-skilled whiner, who thinks he should be able to buy his wins, rather than play for them. There is literally zero drawback to having every little kid in the world play in an event you win (or even make top 8 in), since it effects your own tournament by none, unless it's round 1 or 2.

You should be actively encouraging every kid with even the smallest spark of interest in playing Legacy - whether they play YuGiOh or Standard makes no difference at all when it comes to how much a TO pays out to the winners of an event. All you're doing by discouraging players is taking players out of the format (not a good thing, since more people means your cards are worth more), taking players out of events (which is equivalent to taking money out of your own pocket, if you assume you're good enough to actually win events), and complaining (annoying me. Not good.).

To those of us who have worked VERY hard to erase the idea of Legacy players being elitist and xenophobic, posts like this are like poison. You're undercutting all of the effort we've put into garnering interest in Legacy, by acting like an entitled child. Frankly, you make me sick.

Atwa

02-09-2010, 12:59 PM

To those of us who have worked VERY hard to erase the idea of Legacy players being elitist and xenophobic, posts like this are like poison. You're undercutting all of the effort we've put into garnering interest in Legacy, by acting like an entitled child. Frankly, you make me sick.

Amen.

These are my thoughts exactly. I've stirred some interest in the format with friends and people who quit the game, since they were able to play with all their old favoreds again in some tournaments. They don't play to win, but to have fun in a competitive environment.

Until last year, the financial argument I've always used that Legacy is cheaper to invest in then a year of standard in the long run. Which was also something that put more casual players into tournaments and made them better players overall.

Although the value of my collection has almost doubled over the last half year, I hate the rise in prices and I hate (detest seems better in place) the argument that a cost barrier will filter out all the anoying noobs and young people. Don't forget we all were noobs and/or young players once. If the older players at that time behaved the same as I see some people do now, I'm pretty sure a lot of us weren't still playing the game now.

Both the game and the format need new players to stay healthy. I know one of the reasons a lot of budget vintage players moved to legacy when the banned lists were separated, because legacy was a format where you could play all your old cards in a competitive format without the unreasonable cost barrier of the power cards (P9, Library, workshop, drain), I was one of the first of them (yea for me being the first Dutch member when only a handful of Europeans registered). The rise in cost can give Legacy a same sort of turn-off as happened to vintage and I think time has proven that isn't healthy, I've seen the turnout of vintage tournaments on the fall for 3 years now and the same thing will happen to Legacy.

android

02-09-2010, 01:17 PM

When you sit across from a board of blue duals, yard of fetches and 4 cards-in-hand, (at least for now) you can almost be sure that your opponent has spent his time and money wisely on the cards and researched enough to approximate your next move.

You know, that's part of Legacy and I honestly do enjoy playing a match where it's likely that my opponent has the card in hand to trump my next move but I march into it anyhow because this particular match up really boils down to being a battle of attrition. Having said that (long winded statement), if that's all Legacy amounts to, the format is quite honestly horseshit. Thank god this isn't the case and there are just as many match ups where I'm at a complete loss as to what my next move should be. I love nothing better than being blown completely out of the water by some well though out, original, simple, cheap ($-wise), innovative strategy which may or may not develop into a standardized deck type.

The Legacy card pool is super-deep and I think people are really caught up on this top 10 decks / top 50 most played cards bullshit. It's really the format of innovation and just because a strategy is not placing top 8 does not mean said strategy is not viable. There are any number of reasons why it's not placing; not played by enough people, hasn't been discovered yet (this is a big one so get out there and innovate), not the right time in a given metagame, the pilot lacks the basic understanding of the game mechanics, etc.

If you hate the price of Tarmogoyf, play stupid shit like Mind Harness or Innocent Blood. If you hate graveyard strategies, play stupid shit like Tormods Crypt. If you hate Islands, play Choke. I've been playing for over 15 years and I don't have all the cards to make all the decks. If I want to test against something, I'll write on a basic land and play proxies. I've never felt like I need to have every hype card or this weeks top deck. Just look at Threshold players or Goblin players, they've been milking those decks for eons. Assholes who feel the pressure to need all the cards for all the decks but can't seem to muster the cash to pay for them are still just assholes at the end of the day.

Most players who I know that want to play competitively but lack the resources end up focusing on one deck. If they want to play something else, they borrow from a friend or trade out for the other cards. If a guy wants to horde a bunch of cards in his binder, that's no sweat off my balls and I don't see it factoring into the future success or failure of this format. If the game dies, you can have your cards cheap, if the game survives, you'll have someone to play with. What path would you choose?

umbowta

02-09-2010, 01:22 PM

Well as I said before, you are one of the reasons of high prices yourself. Sitting on 9 U-Seas instead of the 4 you really only need decreases supply on the market and therefore lets the prices raise. Anyone owning more than a playset of old legacy staples has no right at all to complain about high prices.I'm not sitting on them, I'm using them. So it's not like I have some secret hoard of duals. They're in MtG decks, and I play MtG.

I have as much right to complain as everyone else. Get this, I want more people to be able to play this format. High prices for cards makes many potential legacy players turn away. High prices are bad for Legacy as a whole which make them bad for me despite my potential for financial gain. I hope we're just in a bubble fueled by speculators who get their greedy ass handed to them when these inflated prices induce a huge negative demand shock and prices plummet.

Like I said, duals should not be effin $100 a piece. It's just not a reasonable price. If I was looking to enter the format right now, I'd be just as pissed as I was when I cracked my first ever two full boxes of MtG...they were Revised boxes containing no p9. All I wanted to do was play MtG with my friends who had introduced me to the game. They all had power and I got none. Moxen went from $20 to $100 and the reaction was...get this...Type 1.5. I don't want to see that happen to Legacy as well. High Prices = Bad for the Format ==> I get to complain.

loveisgreen

02-09-2010, 01:54 PM

IamPhil

02-09-2010, 03:54 PM

I've talked to various TOs and other players (I live in Standard Hell) and they all really believe Legacy is just a joke. I often get remarks like "Why don't you play a real man's format", and "How much money did you have to spend to win that match". The honest truth is that anyone who doesn't play the format DOES believe in the elitist community, which is why the format has taken so long to gain interest.

My weekly Legacy event is actually just a bunch of kids who can't even afford to play Standard, and it's just a mash of decks built out of commons and junk they found in an unsorted box at the shop. They are only going to come back for so long after getting destroyed by someone with that attitude before they move on to some other hobby like Yu Gi Oh or drugs. Fortunately, they are very easily influenced, so all it takes is a push in the right direction. We NEED these kids for this format to stay healthy, and I really believe it starts with us. There is no shortage on Legacy staples and they are more than willing to trade up for them. Some kid at my event was bashing people with Troll Ascetic and Armadillo Cloak and won 3 packs, one which contained an Elspeth. I gave him a Taiga for it and turned around, sold the Elspeth and bought my Taiga back off Ebay. I've outsourced at least 2 sets of Goyfs to these kids and it was a little work on my part, but I think if you aren't willing to do that work, get the fuck out of our way. I want my healthy format, how about you?

On a side note, why the HELL is Scroll Rack so expensive?

EDIT: By the way, Yu Gi Oh costs more than Magic. Judgment Dragon (a staple in the most popular deck) is $70. Mirror Force ( A staple in EVERY DECK) is $30. That's just the "Standard" format. It's also very skill intensive, and the people who are as dedicated to it as we are Legacy think the same thing of us. So lets all just try to get along :)

Treasure Hunt increased Scroll Rack's value.

And thank you for pointing the Magic vs. Drugs argument. You hit the nail on the head. I've been playing Magic since I was in the 6th grade. It absolutely kept me out of trouble, improved my critical thinking, and taught me to take responsibility for my actions.

Most people don't realize their actions in Magic reflect their actions in life and vice versa. Whatever you teach your opponent, friends, or the kids in Magic, they get to take with them for the rest of their lives.

For those of you who remember John Sorentino, about ten years ago I couldn't play in a tournament at Star City Games. I had a wonderful deck built and didn't have the money to play and eat. For those of you without blood sugar problems, please understand, when your blood sugar is off, you might as well be drunk, so eating correctly and managing your blood sugar is especially important for tournament play.

Sorentino was a strong Magic player, but he didn't have a deck, so I offered him my deck. He didn't have enough experience with it to feel confident in piloting it, so we sat around and talked about everything from Magic to real life instead. I was 16, so you can imagine the kind of insight he shared with me. That was the last time I saw him. I found out about a year ago he killed himself. It's not often that I don't think about Magic and Sorentino together, and that's something take with me. Time with Sorentino that day is why I take an extra few minutes at the end of a match to sit down with my opponent ten years younger than me and play twenty questions with him, or just chit chat. Or why I'll step outside and have a smoke and talk about my deck freely.

That's why I don't mind spending "a little bit more" to play Legacy or Extended when there are more players of that character quality than in Standard.

anonymos

02-09-2010, 03:54 PM

If I want to test against something, I'll write on a basic land and play proxies.

Dude, you're ruining what is becoming the rarest thing in magic. White bordered basic lands...

Anyway, I'll add something of value now. I'm kind of on the fence about rising prices. I like that it increases the value of my cards. I can't deny that. I bought my NM Underground Seas for $20 each and love to point it out to people.

On the other side, I'm in college. There is a local store that is trying to encourage guys to play Legacy. I'm on the stores side there. I keep loaning out decks week after week to get more people interested. I sit some days after class and play showing them crazy stuff. I lost to a guy playing standard vampires last night cause he plays frickin duress. Duress + Tidehollow Sculler = ouch for ANT... And I laughed my ass off when he did it. He's playing Legacy this weekend. I've already warned him he's going to be reading a LOT of the cards, but I'm trying to get him up to speed.

I think everyone should remember when they started. I played my first game against Dan Cherry in January of...umm...*digs through binder for old cards*...1997. He helped me a lot. Showed me things that I didn't understand, like why BEB was bad in the blue cards only tournament I was playing in. Everyone starts somewhere. There are friends I made that day that I still have. I've met people that I wouldn't have because of this game. Mike (Teeniebopper) and I wouldn't have made a trip across 2 states one weekend for a vintage tournament when Legacy was still in it's infancy if it hadn't been for Dan way back 7 years before.

Don't be a dick, be a Dan.

MMogg

02-09-2010, 09:29 PM

Channelfireball just did a segment on Tarmogoyf: http://strategy.channelfireball.com/videos/magic-tv-extra-why-is-tarmogoyf-so-expensive/

Meh: could be summed up in a couple words: "don't know. He's good and people are playing him?"

Seriously that was horrible analysis, but then again, I find most of their videos are aimed at Standard players with little to no knowledge of the Eternal formats. It's always great when online stores put out articles and/or videos talking about prices and using their inflated store prices as opposed to the actual current ebay/street price.

dahcmai

02-09-2010, 09:50 PM

Dude, you're ruining what is becoming the rarest thing in magic. White bordered basic lands...

It would be quite amusing to see the next huge jump in card price be Three Kingdom's basic lands. They are after all the pimp of white-bordered lands next to Summer. Sad, but probably true in a few years.

MMogg

02-09-2010, 10:14 PM

It would be quite amusing to see the next huge jump in card price be Three Kingdom's basic lands. They are after all the pimp of white-bordered lands next to Summer. Sad, but probably true in a few years.

Actually, it's funny how on MOTL, white bordered are often more than their original black bordered counterparts. For example:

Jokulhaups (5th), 1.00, 0.00, 1.00, 1.00, 1.00, -0.46, 1
Jokulhaups (6th), 0.82, 0.38, 0.82, 1.25, 0.01, -0.38, 7
Jokulhaups (IA), 0.72, 0.27, 0.72, 1.25, 0.49, -0.00, 11

Fervor (6th), 1.45, 0.00, 1.45, 1.45, 1.45, 0.00, 1
Fervor (7th), 0.94, 0.40, 0.94, 1.50, 0.25, -0.00, 5
Fervor (WL), 1.25, 0.00, 1.25, 1.25, 1.25, 0.00, 1

Enlightened Tutor (6th), 5.04, 2.65, 5.52, 16.51, 2.25, 0.00, 29
Enlightened Tutor (MI), 4.53, 1.77, 4.63, 8.51, 0.99, -0.02, 41

Mystical Tutor (6th), 3.87, 3.13, 4.31, 6.60, 0.99, -0.10, 42
Mystical Tutor (MI), 3.69, 1.47, 3.64, 7.50, 0.99, 0.00, 40

and so on. So. Fucked. Up.

Shugyosha

02-10-2010, 09:34 AM

I have as much right to complain as everyone else. Get this, I want more people to be able to play this format. High prices for cards makes many potential legacy players turn away. High prices are bad for Legacy as a whole which make them bad for me despite my potential for financial gain. I hope we're just in a bubble fueled by speculators who get their greedy ass handed to them when these inflated prices induce a huge negative demand shock and prices plummet.

You are effectively only using 4 U-Seas ever in a tournament. Every Dual beyond that is only owned out of convenience. Don't you understand the basic principle of the market? High demand and low supply leads to high prices. Now don't you think that a lot of people including you are (among other reasons) responsible for low supply when sitting on staples you really don't need to play in a tournament.

If some guy next to you would complain that he needs U-Seas but can't find anybody who wants to trade or sell their playset does it feel right to you to complain about high prices?

Nightmare

02-10-2010, 09:38 AM

You are effectively only using 4 U-Seas ever in a tournament. Every Dual beyond that is only owned out of convenience. Don't you understand the basic principle of the market? High demand and low supply leads to high prices. Now don't you think that a lot of people including you are (among other reasons) responsible for low supply when sitting on staples you really don't need to play in a tournament.

If some guy next to you would complain that he needs U-Seas but can't find anybody who wants to trade or sell their playset does it feel right to you to complain about high prices?

What if he's loaning out a deck with 4 seas in it to a friend? What if the 9th sea is in ANT as a 1-of, and he loans that out, too?

Star City has 47 Seas in stock right now. Are they the reason no one can find them? Why are people complaining they can't find them when stores have plenty in stock?

Bardo

02-10-2010, 10:01 AM

No one's saying they can't find U Seas (at least I didn't read that); the complaint is about stores having inventory at a cost they're willing to play. (All of those duals being stockpiled in binders are effectively out of the market, increasing the value of those cards that are available.) Personally, I feel people can bitch about whatever they want to bitch about -- I'm not on that side of the argument. :)

Shugyosha

02-10-2010, 10:06 AM

What if he's loaning out a deck with 4 seas in it to a friend? What if the 9th sea is in ANT as a 1-of, and he loans that out, too?

Star City has 47 Seas in stock right now. Are they the reason no one can find them? Why are people complaining they can't find them when stores have plenty in stock?

Loaning out stuff is what keeps the Legacy scene large but that doesn't change the fact that prices are higher than they have to. People beginning with Legacy don't want to lend decks every tournament they want to own stuff. SCG has a lot of U-Seas but these are much more expensive than getting them via private trade. My collection wouldn't be what it is today if I had to buy everything at SCG prices. More people could have a decent Legacy pool when everyone only owns one set of expensive staples. The thing is that it doesn't stop at something like 9 U-Seas which are only an example. People rarely loan out their entire cardpool on a regular basis and there are also people (not umbowta) who seem to stockpile Scroll Racks, Loyal Retainers etc. They almost certainly don't loan them out. They just drive the prices higher.

IsThisACatInAHat?

02-10-2010, 10:50 AM

jazzykat

02-10-2010, 11:34 AM

As I continue to follow this thread and ponder this issue I have mixed feelings:

1. Indifference: I don't care how expensive the cards get. I have what I need to play most decks and if they are worth enough I will sell mine and buy a BMW. MTG will become unaffordable to me long after most players can't afford to play.

2. Concern: I want this format to grow and the barrier to entry is a real issue for the average person. I'm very happy for everyone has that their Legacy staples but how long do you think your cards are going to be $$$ if everyone loses interest due to the entry barrier?

Having a small pile of extra Legacy staples myself I am willing to accept that some type of reprinting needs to be done. Specifically I like putting the cards directly into the hands of the players; via judge promo, as a special top-8 prize, grand prix promo or whatever. I believe more of the old cards need to get back into circulation. I don't much care for doing away with the reserve list because instead of making the reprints special, it will allow wizards to make the cards "common and base" or allow them to make some stupid gimmick (FtVE) and let the resellers dick you over on the price anyway.

Nightmare

02-10-2010, 11:44 AM

Loaning out stuff is what keeps the Legacy scene large but that doesn't change the fact that prices are higher than they have to. People beginning with Legacy don't want to lend decks every tournament they want to own stuff. SCG has a lot of U-Seas but these are much more expensive than getting them via private trade. My collection wouldn't be what it is today if I had to buy everything at SCG prices. More people could have a decent Legacy pool when everyone only owns one set of expensive staples. The thing is that it doesn't stop at something like 9 U-Seas which are only an example. People rarely loan out their entire cardpool on a regular basis and there are also people (not umbowta) who seem to stockpile Scroll Racks, Loyal Retainers etc. They almost certainly don't loan them out. They just drive the prices higher.

I don't understand the difference between "I own 8 Seas, and loan 4 out when 'jimmy' needs them" vs "I own 4 seas, and I traded 4 to 'jimmy' who now owns 4 Seas." Both examples result in 2 decks running Underground Sea in a given event. How does one example drive the price of the cards up, and the other does not? In both examples, there are two sets of seas in the environment. In both examples, access is equal to the two sets of Seas for these players. In both examples, the third player, playing Watery Graves, is fucked. How is that Umbowta's fault?

dahcmai

02-10-2010, 01:07 PM

You could always set up something like we have at our store. I donate a ton of commons and uncommons because I typically buy a playset of those when a new set comes out so anything I get after that is extra. We put them in this little machine you put in a quarter and get some random assortment of cards out of.

Since it's not worth it to get only commons and uncommons, the store owner puts in stuff like actual duals and some other goodies every so often. That stupid machine is a hit and spreads the good cards among the kids since most experienced players steer clear of that thing. I've seen people use grab bags in a similar fashion.

If you want the kids to get in, you should ask the store owner to try it. It's amazing how much money that little thing makes. It's hard to get the good stuff, but it does happen and it's almost always a kid who gets it. Now if we can just keep the assholes from trading the good stuff off those kids for nothing.

sco0ter

02-10-2010, 01:20 PM

Wohhaa...

I just checked some prices of cards (magickartenmarkt.de), I didnt check for some time and guess what I saw on some cards? nearly 100% increase.

Natural Order VI nm: 24 EUR (33 USD), few months ago (after Progenitus hype has settled already) this was at 12 EUR. What happened here???
Volrath's Stronghold nm: 11 EUR. wtf? I got it for 5 EUR. This is only a 1-off in few decks.
Lion's Eye Diamond: same as NO.
Survival of the Fittest: 14 EUR... got mine for 7 EUR 5 years ago.
Force of Will: 25 EUR... Wasn't this at ~16-17 for ages??
Sinkhole: see FoW

all the others mentioned already increased by ~100%, too (Mox Diamond, Wasteland, ...)

Than I saw this thread and recognized, I am not alone obviously...

Strangeley enough, Exploration or Grim Lavamancer didn't increase. Someone mentioned it already.

@loveisgreen: I also lol'ed at Scroll Rack....

This is just insane...

Shugyosha

02-10-2010, 02:15 PM

I don't understand the difference between "I own 8 Seas, and loan 4 out when 'jimmy' needs them" vs "I own 4 seas, and I traded 4 to 'jimmy' who now owns 4 Seas." Both examples result in 2 decks running Underground Sea in a given event. How does one example drive the price of the cards up, and the other does not? In both examples, there are two sets of seas in the environment. In both examples, access is equal to the two sets of Seas for these players. In both examples, the third player, playing Watery Graves, is fucked. How is that Umbowta's fault?

Well this is getting a bit abstract but my point is and always was not about a single person but about the scene/market in general:

The problem with lending opposed to ownership, is that all cards are at one location and people have to be in some form of contact with the guy who loans out decks. Its much more common that we lend stuff to people we know and trust and are often legacy players themselves than lending cards/decks to people who just learn the format. If there are no people with lots of cards in your area the prices are still high. Not sitting on staples would help to distribute cards more evenly.

Also as I said, there are in fact a lot of people who don't loan out cards and decks. If you have U-Seas and Jimmy has U-Seas you could both play. If you have 8 U-Seas and don't lend or trade 4 because you don't want to shift your 4 between decks Jimmy has a problem. If you have 8 U-Seas and you and Jimmy don't know each other, Jimmy also has a problem.

Nightmare

02-10-2010, 02:27 PM

If there are no people with lots of cards in your area the prices are still high. Not sitting on staples would help to distribute cards more evenly.

If you have U-Seas and Jimmy has U-Seas you could both play. If you have 8 U-Seas and don't lend or trade 4 because you don't want to shift your 4 between decks Jimmy has a problem. If you have 8 U-Seas and you and Jimmy don't know each other, Jimmy also has a problem.

On the first point, if someone isn't willing to spend the money for whatever the "market" says the value of seas is, it doesn't matter whether I have 100 or 1000 duals. I'll happily trade my seas - but if we don't live in the same town, or bump into each other at a PTQ, it's not helping you out, and my collection has no effect on the value of cards in your town. There will never be an even distribution, or anything even close to it. For example, America currently has more duals than Europe. It shouldn't be my responsibility to be their supplier. That's what stores are for. I don't know about your town, but the Legacy players in my area are generally pretty free with loaning out staples (for the duration of an event), since it encourages players to play optimized decks. If you need to come up with your fourth Tropical Island, there's usually someone at the Legacy event you can bum one off from for the night - whether they know you or not - which addresses the second point. There's usually a chain of trust that extends beyond "I know you, you know me." Of course, we also just had an incident where an alleged thief got the shit kicked out of him - in the store - during the Worldwake release, so trustworthiness is valued highly in our area - with consequences for those who breach it.

umbowta

02-10-2010, 02:58 PM

Don't you understand the basic principle of the market? High demand and low supply leads to high prices.Yes actually I do. Macroeconomics was a required course for my Political Science minor.

Now don't you think that a lot of people including you are (among other reasons) responsible for low supply when sitting on staples you really don't need to play in a tournament.No. I believe that speculators are inducing artificial demand on the market thus causing unfairly and artificially high prices. According to some numbers I saw recently, there are greater than 70,000 playsets of each dual and less than 30,000 registered eternal players. 70,000 divided by 30,000 is approximately 2.3 playsets, or 9 of each dual available per registered eternal player. I am a registered eternal player and an avid casual player. I play the game with cards that were printed by the manufacturer.

If some guy next to you would complain that he needs U-Seas but can't find anybody who wants to trade or sell their playset does it feel right to you to complain about high prices?Yes, it does. Willy Everplay can't get anyone to trade/sell him their stuff because Sammy Speculator is willing to pay more than Willy. So Joe Blow sells his extra stuff to Sammy and poor Willy gets shafted. In the meantime, I'm willing to lend some cards to Willy so he doesn't have to partake in the current price bubble. As a matter of fact, I lent out my entire 4c Abyss Control deck at the tournament I played in 2 weeks ago.

kicks_422

02-10-2010, 05:51 PM

With the increasing popularity of the format, would Wizards *really* be stupid to reprint Legacy staples in premium sets? People just keep saying that it will be like Chronicles again, with players complaining about the drop in value of their cards etc... But will that really happen? As far as I know, Legacy players buy cards primarily to play with them, not to collect or just to sell them off again. Who here would actually get pissed off if the value of their duals/FoWs would go down $5? $10? (whch was the price of these cards a couple of years ago, anyway).

IsThisACatInAHat?

02-10-2010, 06:03 PM

With the increasing ppularity of the format, would Wizards *really* be stupid to reprint Legacy staples in premium sets? People just keep saying that it will be like Chronicles again, with players complaining about the drop in value of their cards etc... But will that really happen? Who here would actually get pissed off if the value of their duals/FoWs would go down $5? $10? (whch was the price of these cards a couple of years ago, anyway).
Everyone. Literally. You, me, everyone who owns or bought a playset within the last, say, 5-10 years. If you ask an economist or economics grad student what the worst thing that can happen to a market is, they will answer "deflation." It's what the US Government is scared to hell of right this very second. It's a result of the worst global depression since the 1930s. To understate this as much as possible (seriously), reprinting some things like duals as legal cards would be catastrophic for the secondary market. Even more "untouchable" cards like the P9 would plummet as consumer confidence in Wizards and the guaranteed protection of peoples' investments disappeared. I know some internet economist will almost undoubtedly offer fallacious reasons why I'm wrong and why reprinting FoW would be great for the format, but believe you me that Wizards has more to lose from grossly violating the reserve list than consumers do. And a lot of consumers have a lot to lose.

kicks_422

02-10-2010, 07:07 PM

So it's not pissed off = 0, pissed off = 1.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm not disagreeing with what you said. I'm just innocently asking the people concerned (the people here in the premiere Legacy site), rather than basing everything off of theories and assumptions.

andrew77

02-10-2010, 07:15 PM

Dan Turner

02-10-2010, 08:00 PM

Rune

02-10-2010, 09:32 PM

I have playsets of most legacy staples and wouldn't mind if they reprinted them. It would make more people play the format, and it might even scare the speculators/hoarders away :]

Reverend Damaged

02-10-2010, 09:52 PM

I'm on board with "not caring about reprinting some staples". I have all the staples currently, and you can ask Sims - I abuse them. Very little interest in whether or not my cards increase in value because they all have a huge crease down the middle. Every one I've ever used.

As far as a reprint goes, a limited premium print of some staples (seriously, a FTV with 10 duals and 5 Onslaught fetches?) would barely make a dent in the market. Some players will want the new foil ones, and sell their old ones off. Some players will hate the new foils, and only want old ones. Either way, it would help with the availability of Dual Lands.

I'm in this format solely to play and have fun, and I want more people to play with.

DrJones

02-10-2010, 10:06 PM

The people suffering the most of chronicles-style reprints are usually the sellers that buy, let's say, one hundred duals, and they take a noticeable hit in their profit margins when the price goes down. Imagine the face of the owner of Starcitygames (currently buying Tabernacles at 200$) if Tabernacle were reprinted in the next from the vault set. That's not entirely dramatical because they buy at reduced price to begin with, so even if the prices go down 25% they still get profits (obviously, not as much as currently). The safest route is not reprinting cards that are too expensive. Wizards is not going to reprint Black lotus if the sellers that support the game (by selling singles to tournament players) are going to lose 900$ for each one they bought.

I support increasing the supplies of legacy staples, however, because the format needs them to grow and attract new players, otherwise we are going to end like the broken toy that is vintage. There's still time.

from Cairo

02-10-2010, 10:07 PM

Really i have playsets of almost everything in legacy and multiple of some stuff. I would love to see some reprints of the basics of legacy. what would be great would be either a FTV aimed at Legacy or even better something along the lines of the old boxed sets Wizards used to do. Both would be of limited enough distribution to not really affect the price of the cards but would give new players a place to start with.

This would probably end up like FTV:Exiled though where the set is MSRP'd at $35 or w/e and being sold for $100++ depending on what's reprinted in it. If it was done in limited quanities, by and large, it would not end up benefitting new players directly, it may help indirectly by deflating the market value of some of the cards due to more being available.

I don't have any viable ideas for a solution to the prices increasing on stuff. Wizards seems to sort of being addressing it with power creep, by obsoleting some old cards with new ones, but I don't really see them printing an LED that produces 4 mana, or something better than FoW, OG Duals, Sinkhole, etc at their respective jobs.

TheAardvark

02-10-2010, 11:34 PM

FoW and brainstorm will not be reprinted as those cards take away from the luck factor in magic that attracts tons of noobs who play type 2.

Do you even play T2 so you have some basis for this type of comment? They won't reprint them in a T2-legal set because 1). FoW is too good and not needed in Standard and hopefully never will be, and 2). Brainstorm is too good, and has had a perfectly acceptable replacement printed in Ponder. Neither card fills a hole within T2 right now that is necessary, or even desirable, to fill.

Current T2 isn't really more or less luck based than any other format, although I can't comment much on T1, as I don't play it. Every format has its share of luck; if they didn't, there wouldn't be decks that could conceivably kill before your opponent gets a turn (various T1 stuff/Charbelcher in Legacy, although it's rare for that to happen turn 1 on the play; or, if not "rare", fairly uncommon).

As far as prices, it's pretty awful. For all the people who say "oh, it's easy to budget X amount a month for Magic", that's not necessarily accurate. In addition, there will always people who don't want to have to spend X to remain competitive as metagames change/new sets come in/whatever. I have, for all intents and purposes, been priced out of playing anything other than Merfolk in Legacy at this point in time, largely because I am uncomfortable with buying cards at such high prices without the express intent of reselling them immediately. The only times I've ever spent large amounts of money on individual cards were at conventions when I was dealing and such; as a player, I have always traded for or managed to buy what I needed for decent/good prices. That, plus the fact that the cost has pretty much destroyed the local Legacy scene, has prevented me from playing the format very much over the last 2 years or so.

I'm not saying "ZOMG reprint duals NOW" or anything, but I do think that some form of action needs to be taken at some point before things get out of hand and the market collapses under its own weight.

Bardo

02-10-2010, 11:56 PM

I would be delighted to see a From the Vault: Bayou and Co.

I own several sets of RV duals (all of the blue ones, Taigas and some other random ones, and no more than 4-each) and would be thrilled to see them reprinted in some form to allow more people to enter the format. Access and long-term growth is limited by the cost of lands -- which have reached outrageous levels in the last couple of months.

kicks_422

02-11-2010, 12:10 AM

So early on, from the players' view (not the economists'), reprinting Legacy staples will be welcomed. Intriguing. Maybe we should have a poll for this?

andrew77

02-11-2010, 12:20 AM

plus_ten

02-11-2010, 01:16 AM

he thing is, all those little kids who play their stompy decks get beat a bunch, which does nothing but increase prize support at the events you play in. That is unless, of course, they beat you with their stompy decks, in which case your opinion is irrelevant since you're basically a low-skilled whiner, who thinks he should be able to buy his wins, rather than play for them. There is literally zero drawback to having every little kid in the world play in an event you win (or even make top 8 in), since it effects your own tournament by none, unless it's round 1 or 2.

Wow. I copped a scathing hit from Nightmare... but my 'elitist' and feelings of entitlement are those of growing-up and doing some hard work. Everyone is guaranteed a bit of that, especially the little Timmies playing T2 now. Ofc, then, it will become a matter of opportunity cost. Also, while it does affect round 1 and 2, I am sure we want good games with good opponents from round ONE, rather than waiting an hour or more before some real legacy match-ups start. If little Timmy comes to a tournament running Stompy round 1 and gets UTTERLY smashed for 4 rounds, I highly doubt he will want to come back for round 5, let along the next event. Thus, I believe that the price barrier will ensure that when he is ready, mature Timmy will come in with his not-quite-mint cards and storm the local Legacy event! :laugh: [see above post by Andrew77]

While Nightmare clearly disagree with my 'elitist' anti-reprint feelings, I do agree that we should promote legacy by helping out. And I do. Really! I bought up doubles of a few staples because little Timmy (a trustworthy good-opponent friend) from my area wanted to play and so do I! Now, I can lend out some decks to anyone who wants a go at the local Legacy event. Am I promoting legacy here? Yes, I can lend out about 2 decks to Timmies wanting a go at the local legacy event! When he grows up and buys his own cards, my decks can be piloted by the next kid who shows up at the events thinking that he just came in today to be a spectator.:smile: TBH, I would not mind leaving a box of staples at the local store to support the scene, but I would need someone to be responsible for their use.

Also, hoarding staples should theoretically drive up prices, because one person has more than his share. However, as long as MOST (if not all) my duals are providing (competitive) mana, and my forces hitting that crucial first turn Vial, legacy stay alive as the necessary cards remain in the hands of players, not horders or speculators. So, there was 1200+ people at the last GP? As long as they never sold out, there will still be 1200+ people at the next (pending the location ofc :laugh:) and the next. 1200+ mature and skillful players? Would anyone want to leave this format?

That being said, any plausible lower-the-barrier reprints will cause these cards to tank and [see my previous post and Andrew77's]. FTV: Legacy is NOT plausible. It will open the market for more opportunists to horde and price gouge, while not helping the format in any way. Also, who is going to have the cash to cough up for FOUR BOXES of this FTV?? Us, even though we already have our ones! Not the Timmy-who-is-not-yet-ready.

Also, any chance someone can do up a poll for opinions on potential reprints?

EDIT: By "plausible lower-the-barrier reprints", I meant Legacy-based Booster packs like Chronicles or ME. These are massive print runs of our staples. That will lower the barrier due to a MASSIVE influx of cards into the hands of players, rich and not-so-rich alike. FTV: Legacy OTOH are VERY limited and will not lower the barrier-of-entry. Another 1000 duals (that is merely 250 playsets, even at 2500 playsets, it s a 3% increase) will not cause the current pool of 70000 playsets to drop in value (significantly*). Instead, these 250 playsets of NEO-duals will be even MORE expensive than the current 70000 ones.

*An FTV:Legacy will cause a price drop as WOTC will have violated their reprint policy and that may well ruin the players' and stores' confidence in the future of the game and the value of the cards.

Forbiddian

02-11-2010, 01:37 AM

That being said, any plausible lower-the-barrier reprints will cause these cards to tank and [see my previous post and Andrew77's]. FTV: Legacy is NOT plausible.

Also, who is going to have the cash to cough up for FOUR BOXES of this FTV?? Us, even though we already have our ones! Not the Timmy-who-is-not-yet-ready.

Wait, so you just said that the price would plummet, but then you said that people looking to join the format couldn't afford the cards?

I hope that Wizards does a FTV: Legacy or something. The people who stand to lose any significant amount of money due to the price drop on the reprinted cards are the same people who stand to make a great deal of money from FTV: Legacy.

And then it will be a high publicity release for Legacy and spark new interest, even if it doesn't move the price much.

TheAardvark

02-11-2010, 03:12 AM

I personally enjoy the fact that legacy is perceived as an expensive format. Have you ever played competitive type 2? Most t2 players are not nice people. If you go to a competitive legacy tournament the crowd is much more mature and it makes for a much more relaxed and fun environment.

I can guarantee you that I have met just as many douche nozzles at Legacy tournaments as I have at T2 tournaments. The whole "Legacy is the nicest community" meme is mythical, because we're all Magic players; one section of the player base preferring Format X to everything else has zero effect on their likability, etc. I think the majority of people who feel this way have limited experience with non-Legacy events; it's something that is based on personal experience and is colored by perception, so it shouldn't be accepted as fact. We all play the same game; just because you play Legacy (primarily, if not only) doesn't make you a better or nicer person than Shorty Shitstain the PTQ player.

Making sweeping generalizations like that hurts not just yourself, but the community, and, by extension, the format. It's not a special club with a super secret handshake designed to keep membership to a minimum; at least, it shouldn't be. You want to community and the format to grow, because more players = more tournaments, and so on. Growth is a positive thing.

But if you prefer to drink the "Legacy is Made Up of Mature/Nice People" Kool-Aid, that is your prerogative.

As far as the reprint conundrum, I think it should be somewhere in the middle between FTV style and just an all-out reprint set. They definitely should NOT be done in foil; honestly, I feel the duals should be white-bordered and done with the old art/frame, but maybe that's just me.

Drizztjah

02-11-2010, 07:26 AM

Is card availability really that much of a problem?
Everywhere i go traders have stocks of duals, and its the same for sites like SCG. Granted, they aren't cheap; but if you aren't willing to spend like 35 $ on a dual land; I feel that legacy isn't the format for you. And this isn't about me being an elitist prick, for me a higher cost is just part of the format, plain and simple.
More then likely there will be alot of players attending the next 2 Legacy GP's, so it seems to me that Legacy is already big enough. Sure, it would be nice if Legacy could continue to grow; but would it be worth it? Somehow I seriously doubt it.
The story is different for more obscure cards like Imperial Recruiter or Tabernacle, but last time I checked those werent staples anyway.

Anyway I am strongly against reprinting, no matter whether you call it FTV: legacy or Chronicles 2 or whatever. The value of the original cards would literally plummet. Now i am not gonna lose my sleep over it, but needless to say I would lose alot of money I invested through the years.
But for me the biggest concern would be Wotc's credibility. I mean, if they start printing duals; where will it end? Soon people will start crying about how they will want to play vintage too, and then voilà there you have it; foil moxen.
Every card that gets reprinted is a stab through not only the heart of players who have been playing older formats for years, but also through the heart of the format itself.

Watcher487

02-11-2010, 08:03 AM

As a Legacy Player for close to 12 years here, I'm going to have to say that reprinting the format (Chronicles 2) would probably be the most interesting thing that Wizards could actually do to improve the format as a whole. Personally I would prefere Wizards to actually reprinting of the old booster boxes to bring them to current print runs (I know, it's impossible to think about this).

I have had most of my Duals since Extended banned them. I picked up Goyfs, Dark Confidants and Mox Diamonds for 'dirt cheap' early since I knew it was a playable card in Legacy. If Wizards decided to nuke the secondary market, I WOULD WELCOME IT. This is a hobby, not a lifestyle like some people consider it.

andrew77

02-11-2010, 09:34 AM

Personally I would prefere Wizards to actually reprinting of the old booster boxes to bring them to current print runs (I know, it's impossible to think about this).

That would literally destroy the value of everything. I'm serious. If its not mythic it'll be worthless. Current print runs are absolutely huge and if the cards aren't reprinted to be legal in newer formats legacy decks would be cheaper than block decks.

Watcher487

02-11-2010, 09:53 AM

That would literally destroy the value of everything. I'm serious. If its not mythic it'll be worthless. Current print runs are absolutely huge and if the cards aren't reprinted to be legal in newer formats legacy decks would be cheaper than block decks.
I understand that the comparison was off, my apologies. But the thought is still there, maybe not to current standards but somewhere comparable. For the record, I don't care about the secondary market. I pick up cards as they come out and don't go out of my way to either pimp or go to excesses. Yes, I do trade and buy cards, but more as a casual player and not some cracked out type 2 players (some that I know have gone out of thier way to do all of those things spending that $2,000 for that deck).

And Andrew like I said before, I don't care of Wizards Nukes the Secondary Market, I would welcome it.

Skeggi

02-11-2010, 10:08 AM

I don't care of Wizards Nukes the Secondary Market, I would welcome it.
I wouldn't. I have spend quite some cash on my cards, so I'm happy they rise in value. That makes it a reasonable investment. If they were to drop in value, I'll be losing alot of money, that's when I would start to worry. As long as cards rise in value, you can safely buy them, knowing they'll be worth more in the future so you can sell them again without having any loss.

majikal

02-11-2010, 10:52 AM

Doomsday

02-11-2010, 11:35 AM

I personally was appalled when they kept printing versions of Monopoly. I mean it's a game about investing and capital. It should be a safe investment, right? Who would have known that people actually played games for fun instead of just speculating on them like normal folks?

This may be the worst attempt at an analogy presented in the topic thus far, which is no small feat.

Also, for the people saying that the differences in player-bases between formats are a myth: The next time you go to a Vintage or Legacy tournament, count up and figure out the percentage of the field made up of young kids. Then do the same at the next T2 tournament you attend. Compare the results

Meister_Kai

02-11-2010, 11:54 AM

Who would have known that people actually played games for fun instead of just speculating on them like normal folks?

I'm glad Wizards of the Coast still gets it though. Nobody wants to play with their cards; we just want to make money from them.

Thank you for posting this. It seems to me that plenty of Magic players believe that anyone who spends $40 a piece on 40 Loyal Retainers has earned a divine right to make a killing. Speculation involves chance, why does Magic have to be different?

Also, for advocates of the "so what card X costs Y, suck it up" argument, what happens when Trops go from $45 to $95 a piece? How many people are going to be able to continuously suck it up? Not all of us have ridiculous jobs that pay ridiculous money so we can drive the ridiculous cars like the ones talked about in the car thread in mish-mash. Legacy should NOT be for only the elitest "I spend $200+ on Magic a month" portion of the player base.

Also, and this is a biggie, please stop it with the whole "Legacy players are more mature" nonsense. I have run into so many cry-manbabies who whined that I trounced them with dredge, that a blew up their last land, countered their spell, or in plenty of places, people I've played Tarmogoyf against. In my experience, Magic players are by and large immature, regardless of what format they play. The amount of petty bickering and trolling that goes on in this very website is testament to this.

mchainmail

02-11-2010, 12:11 PM

I would be furious if wizards reprinted duals or fow's. That being said the only thing they might reprint is duals. FoW and brainstorm will not be reprinted as those cards take away from the luck factor in magic that attracts tons of noobs who play type 2. Without the battlefield and all this other yugioh nonsense wizards would lose money. Reprinting cards that require skill to use as opposed to cards like bloodbraid elf which require no skill at all would make the game unfun for the people WotC caters to.

You really think Force of Will would even get played in today's standard? I play Legacy; I know how good it can be in the meta, but in a slower standard, a 5 mana counter or a 2-card counter aren't what the format can use.

workingdude

02-11-2010, 12:18 PM

Hey guys, just created an account here.

I'll be talking about the recent fluctuation in Legacy (and honestly, Standard and Extended) in my SCG article next week (not this Thursday, but the Thursday afterwards) and the week after that, in free-side articles. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts once I've put up those two articles.

This coming Thursday, I will be talking a bunch about Scroll Rack, but that article will be premium.

- Ben

This should be coming out today right?

If only limited reprints are printed to attract new players, those new players may add fuel to the speculation of the other non-reprinted cards. The new players cant play on just one set of staples, (ie duals) they'd need the goyfs too. That would mean even more of a rise in goyf prices.

majikal

02-11-2010, 12:28 PM

Doomsday

02-11-2010, 01:14 PM

For someone so critical of other people's posts, this one sure is a failure. Nobody ever said all of the formats attracted the same age demographic. The level of maturity is roughly the same; while Standard has its actual, spoiled children, Legacy has spoiled man-children. You get people with high-paying jobs and tons of cash to blow (or extreme fiscal irresponsibility), with all the emotional development of a twelve-year-old.

I guess if this requires further explanation, the next step would be developing a way to test maturity, and performing the test on young children and then on adults with jobs, and comparing the results. (SPOILER: The test isn't actually required, adults on average are more mature than children and no one will dispute this).

To not be completely off-topic, I was just echoing others' sentiments that the cost of entry goes a long way toward keeping kids out. It seemed like they were crucified for saying this, but what they said was true and I can't honestly hold it against an adult when they say that they don't want to interact with children in their spare time. For instance I'd much rather play in my 12-team softball league (where we're all adults and can drink while playing, have adult discussions, etc), than to make it into a 24-team league by allowing 13 year olds.

MattH

02-11-2010, 01:26 PM

Everyone. Literally. You, me, everyone who owns or bought a playset within the last, say, 5-10 years.

That is complete bullshit. Every expensive card I own, I've acquired in the last 10 years, and 90% of them in the last five, and I would love it to death to see all of them reprinted, in such quantities that anyone who wants them can have them (I'm talking $10 Underground Seas). I derive no pleasure from beating an opponent because they couldn't afford to buy a better deck. That's as unsatisfying a win as cheating at Candyland.

But maybe you didn't know. Maybe you've managed to go through 20+ pages of this thread without figuring out that even people who own lots of valuable cards want them reprinted. Ignorance is not a sin, but be advised that what you are saying is a complete falsehood.

When I buy a card, what I'm paying for is the ability to use that card in games of Magic (or for certain collectible cards like miscuts, because they're cool to look at/show off). I'm NOT paying for the chance to resell it at a profit, even if I get that option automatically. If the market price of a Bayou jumps to $100 or falls to $5, it doesn't affect me one bit, because I never intended to sell them anyway. I bought the cards because I want to play with them, and as long as I can do that, I'm getting my money's worth.

the Timmy-who-is-not-yet-ready.

Uh, did you miss the fact that a 14-year-old won the Standard portion, and all but won the Legacy portion of the SCG Dallas 5k? You need to check your prejudices at the door, buddy.

I can guarantee you that I have met just as many douche nozzles at Legacy tournaments as I have at T2 tournaments. The whole "Legacy is the nicest community" meme is mythical, because we're all Magic players; one section of the player base preferring Format X to everything else has zero effect on their likability, etc.
Right the fuck on. In fact the nicest players I know are almost exclusively draft players, or players who play any and every format (standard, extended, legacy, vintage, draft, EDH, Type Four, cube, casual, Stacks, everything). As a percentage, Legacy has about the same amount of assholery as Standard.

Now i am not gonna lose my sleep over it, but needless to say I would lose alot of money I invested through the years.

I wouldn't. I have spend quite some cash on my cards, so I'm happy they rise in value. That makes it a reasonable investment. If they were to drop in value, I'll be losing alot of money, that's when I would start to worry. As long as cards rise in value, you can safely buy them, knowing they'll be worth more in the future so you can sell them again without having any loss.

What exactly do you think an investment is? If you're investing, you implicitly accept the risk of losing money. Anyone who buys cards with the intention of making a profit has ZERO standing to complain if they lose money on that investment.

That would literally destroy the value of everything. I'm serious. If its not mythic it'll be worthless. Current print runs are absolutely huge and if the cards aren't reprinted to be legal in newer formats legacy decks would be cheaper than block decks.
No. Wrong. Cards would be worthless to RESELL, but they would still be worthwhile to PLAY WITH. It's hard to take your opinions seriously if you can't distinguish between market price and utility.

For instance I'd much rather play in my 12-team softball league (where we're all adults and can drink while playing, have adult discussions, etc), than to make it into a 24-team league by allowing 13 year olds.
That's a bad analogy, because 13-year-olds can't actually compete with grown adults in sporting competitions. Even the most emotionally mature kids (and I have known plenty of younger people who are/were more mature at 14 than most 22-year-olds) gets whomped by the bigger, stronger, dumber asshole college grad.

Volt

02-11-2010, 01:47 PM

majikal

02-11-2010, 01:57 PM

I own somewhere around 65 dual lands, about half of which are blue. If Underground Seas and the rest were to suddenly drop to $10 each because Wizards decided to reverse their policy and reprint them, I would certainly be very annoyed.
I've shelled out for some expensive cards, like FBB Duals as well as revised ones, Mana Drains, multiple playsets of FoW, etc. Why? Because I want to play with them. But, I would be thrilled to death if every single one of those cards were reprinted so I'd have more opponents to play with. The higher the prices climb, the more people sell out in certain areas, and the less people en masse will play the game, until you're left with small pockets of six here, four there, that only ever make it out to 5k events, assuming they don't box up the collection completely or keep it at the kitchen table.

There will come a point in the future where no matter how much some collectibles expert tells you your cards are probably worth, you will have trouble finding a buyer, let alone anyone to play against.

Volt

02-11-2010, 02:01 PM

I've shelled out for some expensive cards, like FBB Duals as well as revised ones, Mana Drains, multiple playsets of FoW, etc. Why? Because I want to play with them. But, I would be thrilled to death if every single one of those cards were reprinted so I'd have more opponents to play with. The higher the prices climb, the more people sell out in certain areas, and the less people en masse play the game, until you're left with small pockets of six here, four there, that only ever make it out to 5k events, assuming they don't box up the collection completely or keep it at the kitchen table.

There will come a point in the future where no matter how much some collectibles expert tells you your cards are probably worth, you will have trouble finding a buyer, let alone anyone to play against.

Yeah, but $10 underground seas? That's more than I'm willing to eat for the good of the format. I guess I'm a selfish dick.

majikal

02-11-2010, 02:09 PM

Yeah, but $10 underground seas? That's more than I'm willing to eat for the good of the format. I guess I'm a selfish dick.
Why does it matter how low they go honestly? The whole purpose is to play with them. Just look at Pithing Needle. It used to be a $20 card and was/is a staple in Sideboards of every format. But they reprinted it twice. It's $3 now, and nobody is complaining, because it's still a good card to play with.

I guess the point is that it's better for the format as a whole for the cards that could be considered "staples" to keep being printed, while fringe powerhouses like Tabernacle or The Abyss or whatever retain the rarity and collectibility. This is exactly the reason why the new duals in Standard weren't printed at Mythic. It would price far too many people out of the format.

IsThisACatInAHat?

02-11-2010, 02:20 PM

But maybe you didn't know. Maybe you've managed to go through 20+ pages of this thread without figuring out that even people who own lots of valuable cards want them reprinted. Ignorance is not a sin, but be advised that what you are saying is a complete falsehood.

When I buy a card, what I'm paying for is the ability to use that card in games of Magic (or for certain collectible cards like miscuts, because they're cool to look at/show off). I'm NOT paying for the chance to resell it at a profit, even if I get that option automatically. If the market price of a Bayou jumps to $100 or falls to $5, it doesn't affect me one bit, because I never intended to sell them anyway. I bought the cards because I want to play with them, and as long as I can do that, I'm getting my money's worth.
Let me start by apologizing for speaking in absolutes. I thought it was obvious that "Everyone. Literally." was intended as hyperbole, since there are always going to be some people who believe little green men live in their television sets and some who falsely believe that reprinting duals would be a good decision by Wizards. I guess all I can say to that is, you would almost definitely be singing a different tune if they did reprint them and if you didn't, you would be in a very small (but on The Source, clearly very vocal) minority.

I'm not basing my conjecture on a handful of anecdotes from a small fansite that represents a miniscule percentage of the people who buy MtG, as you are. It doesn't sound like any amount of suggestions for articles, books or Wikipedia pages will change your mind, but the truth is that whether or not 99% of people are paying to play, collect or sell, if they buy a card for $50 today and it drops to $5 tomorrow, there will be problems. Deflationary spirals have been linked to most major economic recessions throughout history, including the Great Depression of the 1930s and the one we're coming out of right now. What makes MtG cards so special that fundamental economic principles don't apply to them? I know it sounds like most people on the Source want reprints and to hell with the price, but even in Magic's short history, we have a shining example of what happens when the value of cards drops because of reprints: Chronicles. From what I understand, more people left the game in disgust after Chronicles than at any other point in its history. I know it must sound ridiculous that historical fact and scientific theory conflict with your idea that duals for everyone would solve the problem of price hikes, but I personally find it difficult to argue with the patently obvious.

Volt

02-11-2010, 02:21 PM

Pithing Needle was never on the Reserved List, and I didn't buy 65 of them.

It's easy to say "the whole point is to play with them," if you live in Happy Land. For me, it's nice to know that I can turn around and sell some or all of my duals for as much or more than I paid for them, in a pinch. I've had to do it before.

But, like I said, maybe I'm just a selfish dick.

luckme10

02-11-2010, 02:22 PM

If anything the dci should start cycling older standard blocks. It rewards people who played in those formats, sells old useless packs of weaker blocks, and would act as a control mechanism for standard card prices. It also freshens up standard!
Just think about mountain of cards that instantly become subpar during the transition between formats. This is the main reason why everyone's flocking to legacy in the first place, because they hate seeing their cards rapidly depreciate after two years especially during these times. People would actually have an incentive to keep older set cards... If they spread the use of other cards around, they wouldn't have to worry so much about hyperinflation that results in a few specific cards when the other cards become subpar.

I'd be pretty happy to see some slower magic games with "old cards," playing some shivan dragon, serra angel, or nightmare where they're competitive again instead of being reprinted, like great boxers fighting beyond their prime.

dahcmai

02-11-2010, 03:04 PM

If you care that much about investing, just do what I did and invest in unopened packs. I still have some these floating around the house. I doubt it will ever go down in price. Hell even the unopened Tempest starters I have will probably be worth something eventually.

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4104/packofbeta.th.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/packofbeta.jpg/)

I would have no complaint at all for all the duals to be in M2011. I'd lose out hard on it, but it would be nice to stop hearing the whining about how expensive they are and my least favorite complaint of how Standard is cheaper to get into than Legacy.

Kojiro

02-11-2010, 03:07 PM

This isn't the first time card price/availability has been a barrier of entry into the format. This shit has been happening for 15 years. I remember when I first started playing back in Revised and playing Type 1 tournaments and getting completely thrashed every round. I saved every single cent until I could afford duals, drains, and power (I was 12-15 at the time, so that's a lot of lawn mowing). I made it work, and I know plenty of players who don't make a lot of money who are savvy enough to pick up the money cards in spite of their prices.

What is it that you people want? Would any of you donate $1000 to Wizards, needy players, etc. if it meant that this format was more accessible? If my playset of duals were suddenly worth $500 instead of $1,500, I would do anything BUT purchase more Magic cards. The only thing I think which will effectively help to stop the dramatic increase in prices while not totally crashing the secondary market would be to introduce a limited number of proxies for sanctioned play (3-5). You can read an interesting article on this topic by my friend Sam here. (http://www.quietspeculation.com/2010/01/why-wizards-needs-official-proxy-policy.html)

Exospaciac

02-11-2010, 03:35 PM

I own somewhere around 65 dual lands, about half of which are blue. If Underground Seas and the rest were to suddenly drop to $10 each because Wizards decided to reverse their policy and reprint them, I would certainly be very annoyed.

How many of those do you actually use in decks?

I'm really beginning to think that part of the reason for these price spikes is simply because people are hoarding expensive cards just to have them, not to use them. I buy Magic cards to play with them, not to watch their values inflate and deflate.

It's going to be impossible for me, and a lot of other players, to continue playing this game if the prices of lands keep rising.

andrew77

02-11-2010, 03:45 PM

How many of those do you actually use in decks?

I'm really beginning to think that part of the reason for these price spikes is simply because people are hoarding expensive cards just to have them, not to use them. I buy Magic cards to play with them, not to watch their values inflate and deflate.

It's going to be impossible for me, and a lot of other players, to continue playing this game if the prices of lands keep rising.

Who really cares if card prices rise as long as they retain their value. Most other tcg's have $100+ cards when new sets release that will end up being worth $5-10 within a year.

Also this idea that prices are driven up by hoarding is a myth. Prices are driven up by stupid people who are willing to pay crazy amounts of money for certain cards. Once someone pays $200 for a tabernacle other people are more willing to pay that and people selling them are going to expect no less. Since the supply is so low on such cards it is very hard for the market to correct itself even though there are more tabernacle's for sale on ebay and other sites than have been in years.

ryO!

02-11-2010, 03:53 PM

i ve posted this in the new format topic and i guess it applies as well.

Legacy has ALWAYS been expensive, and now that it's being really popular, let's not forget that it's what everyone whished for, everybody is whining. Legacy is not in danger at all, it just has never been as much popular. Prices are skyrocket high ? Please don't tell me than most of you don't have a decent legacy deck, and i don't see any new comer crying about the prices and if they do well we all felt that at the beginning. Indeed we have all started from somewhere, and none of us had, just after snaping his fingers, a playset of all dual lands in Alpha miscut, missprinted, in korean language foil and signed by Garfield, Obama and Michael Jordan. I remember when i was was youger back in 1995 when i started, most of the cards seemed unaffordable and at that time for a youg guy like me they were, so i dealt with it and played with what i could afford. As we all grew older, we have more resources and one card at a time we can build a decent legacy deck and please quit the BS about legacy's prices being comparable to Vintage P9. The current formats are just fine and if you are that bored just play for fun with your friend. I to be honest never had so much fun when i played MTG with friends like a drinking games with old school cards and crap one's and our own rules. Ideas like turning legacy into an extended II are the WORST idea i ve ever heard. And no your don't have to own 4 duals of every kind 4 tabernacle 4 Imperial recruiter 4 "w/e the staples is" to have fun in magic or even to be competitive. Legacy is just FINE, for exemple we have now like 1 small touney (20 to 40 people and run by gaming shops) per week or every two weeks where i live and damn finally i can play legacy more than once a year ... also Unbanning cards like Entomb, Metal worker, DH is just fine and it contributed to make the metagame even richer which is a GOOD thing for legacy, i mean there are so many decks to play and still new ideas to come. And that where the difference stand between legacy and vintage where there is only one or two valid powered archetype. And damn for legacy sake please stop GOSSIPING AROUND about any single thing. and IF US or "pick up your card" seems too expensive why didn't you buy them like a year ago when they were cheaper ? And stop blaming people who have more then one playset, i mean let's be honnest, far from all of them are speculators, they ve been owing them for years.

Who really cares if card prices rise as long as they retain their value. Most other tcg's have $100+ cards when new sets release that will end up being worth $5-10 within a year.

Also this idea that prices are driven up by hoarding is a myth. Prices are driven up by stupid people who are willing to pay crazy amounts of money for certain cards. Once someone pays $200 for a tabernacle other people are more willing to pay that and people selling them are going to expect no less. Since the supply is so low on such cards it is very hard for the market to correct itself even though there are more tabernacle's for sale on ebay and other sites than have been in years.

totally

Volt

02-11-2010, 04:11 PM

Skeggi

02-11-2010, 04:19 PM

What exactly do you think an investment is? If you're investing, you implicitly accept the risk of losing money. Anyone who buys cards with the intention of making a profit has ZERO standing to complain if they lose money on that investment.

You guys are hanging too much on the word 'investment'. All I'm saying, is when I'm spending lots of cash on cards now, it doesn't matter, because I can always get that money back by selling the cards. It's not like buying a car - that actually drops in value. The fact that cards only go up in value simly comforts me if I have to buy a couple of expensive cards. I recently got some P9 pieces - I never would have done that if they would drop in price, that's just wasting money. Now it's not, because I can always sell them for approximately the price I bought them for. So I don't really see a problem.

TheAardvark

02-11-2010, 04:38 PM

Also, for the people saying that the differences in player-bases between formats are a myth: The next time you go to a Vintage or Legacy tournament, count up and figure out the percentage of the field made up of young kids. Then do the same at the next T2 tournament you attend. Compare the results

Whenever you look at people playing games of any kind, age isn't a great barometer of maturity. I have played in tournaments regularly since 1996 and have met more people over the age of 17 who whined about various things regarding the game than those under 17; it's not even close, honestly. Sure, there are 12 year olds out there who play and need a good ass-kicking, but there have always been, and will always be, more who are old enough to "know better" but still act like jackasses.

In growing the local community here as TO, I have had many, many more issues with cheating, theft, and general fuckwitted twattery by people in their 20s than people under the age of 17; again, not close. Even at the local FNM, which has a decent amount of people ages 10-14 regularly, they are very rarely a problem.

It's the older people with the sense of entitlement that cause the most problems, regardless of format.

MattH

02-11-2010, 04:44 PM

I guess all I can say to that is, you would almost definitely be singing a different tune if they did reprint them and if you didn't, you would be in a very small (but on The Source, clearly very vocal) minority.
Let me start by saying, fuck you for trying to tell me how I would react. You don't even get to claim ignorance here, I TOLD you exactly how I would feel about the price of my collection dropping. So don't go putting words in my mouth.

I'm not basing my conjecture on a handful of anecdotes from a small fansite that represents a miniscule percentage of the people who buy MtG, as you are.
So you're basing your claims instead on...what, exactly? A scientific poll? A broad survey? Oh right, nothing at all. Well, that's a sound basis if I ever heard one! The fact is that neither of us know who is in the majority here, your delusions to the contrary.

It doesn't sound like any amount of suggestions for articles, books or Wikipedia pages will change your mind, but the truth is that whether or not 99% of people are paying to play, collect or sell, if they buy a card for $50 today and it drops to $5 tomorrow, there will be problems.
Such as what, exactly? Players revolting en masse? Protests outside Hasbro offices? 99% of people who play Magic see their card prices drop all the time. They're called standard and extended players.

Deflationary spirals have been linked to most major economic recessions throughout history, including the Great Depression of the 1930s and the one we're coming out of right now. What makes MtG cards so special that fundamental economic principles don't apply to them?
Let's think for a minute about what you're saying. Deflation is a problem when it's widespread across an entire economy. Apparently you don't know this, but Magic cards are not the same as the US or world economy. What would a "magic recession" even look like? You are saying that if dual lands are reprinted, players will stop buying cards? Stop playing in tournaments? Are you mental?

You do realize that Wizards already reserves the right to reprint any card from Masques forward, and over 75% of the cards from before then, at any time, for any reason, in any way, in any quantity, right? And that players, stores, TOs, and collectors are just fine with this? The reserved list only applies to an extremely minor segment of the Magic economy. It is not 1995 anymore and it's only a minority of players and stores and collectors that are even affected by the reserved list, regardless of how they feel.

If you want to talk about the wider Magic economy, you need to admit to yourself that:
1. Most people do not own duals.
2. Most people do not own power.
3. Most STORES do not own these cards.
4. And most importantly, an economy without any kind of reserved list already exists and operates just fine right now, and that economy dwarfs the Eternal economy by at least one and probably 2-3 orders of magnitude.

This is an argument between TWO small minorities: the ones who favor a reprint, and the ones who oppose a reprint, with the vast bulk of Magic players completely unaware of and uninterested in the controversy. Don't pretend like reprints would be some earth-shattering kaboom, bringing on a great depression and nuclear winter, ashes blanketing the ground, obscuring the sun, paving the way for twenty years of darkness and pain. A handful of people will lose a few hundred dollars apiece, a few who made speculative bets will lose their shirt, and most people won't even notice the difference.

Observer

02-11-2010, 04:59 PM

I'm not basing my conjecture on a handful of anecdotes from a small fansite that represents a miniscule percentage of the people who buy MtG, as you are. It doesn't sound like any amount of suggestions for articles, books or Wikipedia pages will change your mind, but the truth is that whether or not 99% of people are paying to play, collect or sell, if they buy a card for $50 today and it drops to $5 tomorrow, there will be problems. Deflationary spirals have been linked to most major economic recessions throughout history, including the Great Depression of the 1930s and the one we're coming out of right now. What makes MtG cards so special that fundamental economic principles don't apply to them?

Now apart from a very smug attitude there is something seriously wrong with your statement, that honestly got me quite annoyed, because you are using a very scary real-life phenomenom as an argument against reprints.
DEFLATION! Be scared as hell everyone, because when those magical cards drop in price it is all going downhill. Now obviously, if the price level of cards ever goes down without reprints that looks like a symptome of a dying game. But that is clearly not the case and what you refer is a dropping price, due to reprints.
But that does not cause any of the rest of the economy to go into a deflation and therefore all those really bad things (aka deflationary spiral, rising debt levels, subdued consumer spending and investments, etc.) DO NOT APPLY!

Now whether reprinting is a good idea or not, I do not want to participate in the discussion, since it is obviously out of our hands.Just to make clear where I stand (for the poll guy ;D) I own some duals (8) and a few other staples and would love reprints, since I know that for the majority of my friends the price is a serious barrier to entry.

To sum it up, argue for or against reprints any way you like, also economically, but please do not invoke the ghost of deflation as a scare tactic.

Sincerely yours

Edit: Thank you MattH for agreeing (or me agreeing with you, whatever)

freakish777

02-11-2010, 05:37 PM

From what I understand, more people left the game in disgust after Chronicles than at any other point in its history.

While I'm not disagreeing with IsThisACatInAHat? point of view, this particular fact I'm pretty sure is wrong.

Saga Block was so broken and sales were so terrible that Wizards R&D was pulled into Hasbro Corporate offices and yelled at. The knee jerk reaction was the complete fail entailed in Mercedian Masques block. Pretty sure that if the entire Wizards R&D department was yelled at by Hasbro Corporate for Saga block, that was when they had the largest exodus of players away from the game due to disgust of the power level.

For reference:

4 Mind Over Matter
3 Stroke of Genius
4 Voltaic Key
3 Scroll Racks
2 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mana Vault
2 Meditate
4 Power Sink
4 Time Spiral
4 Windfall
2 Intuition
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Tolarian Academy
12 Island

This shit was legal in STANDARD!

Nocco

02-11-2010, 06:13 PM

There will come a point in the future where no matter how much some collectibles expert tells you your cards are probably worth, you will have trouble finding a buyer, let alone anyone to play against.

I agree with pretty much everything majikal's said and wanted to highlight this very important point.

EDIT: Oh, and MattH and Andrew are pretty much spot on in their assessments as well. WotC couldn't care less about how hard they buttfuck Eternal players because, let's face it, we make up a pretty small minority of the people who purchase their cards. If they think reprinting duals or FOWs or even P9 will increase sales and interest in the game, then they'll reprint them, secondary market values be damned.

Matt Blackburn

02-11-2010, 06:58 PM

Saga Block was so broken and sales were so terrible that Wizards R&D was pulled into Hasbro Corporate offices and yelled at. The knee jerk reaction was the complete fail entailed in Mercedian Masques block. Pretty sure that if the entire Wizards R&D department was yelled at by Hasbro Corporate for Saga block, that was when they had the largest exodus of players away from the game due to disgust of the power level.

For reference:

4 Mind Over Matter
3 Stroke of Genius
4 Voltaic Key
3 Scroll Racks
2 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mana Vault
2 Meditate
4 Power Sink
4 Time Spiral
4 Windfall
2 Intuition
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Tolarian Academy
12 Island

This shit was legal in STANDARD!

and who were the majority of players that left ? low level or casual players would be my guess. I know a shit ton of the same who left because of having to play against UB faeries for fucking two years straight. I'd much rather play or play against the deck listed above than have to deal with flying shrouded counter nonsense ever again. I'd give anything to play in a standard environment with saga power level cards.

Artowis

02-11-2010, 07:22 PM

freakish777

02-11-2010, 07:58 PM

and who were the majority of players that left ? low level or casual players would be my guess. I know a shit ton of the same who left because of having to play against UB faeries for fucking two years straight. I'd much rather play or play against the deck listed above than have to deal with flying shrouded counter nonsense ever again. I'd give anything to play in a standard environment with saga power level cards.

In case you're somehow unaware, low level and casual players account for the majority of Wizards' customer base. And no, you really wouldn't have wanted to play in a format where as the saying goes:

The early game is the coin flip.
The mid-game is deciding your mulligans.
The late game is turn 1.

Furthermore, keep in mind that the old Legends rule was "Your opponent has their Tolarian Academy out? They get to keep it forever and ever, your's is useless."

Having 4 Tolarian Academy in your deck and having turn 1s such as:

Academy
Mox Diamond
Island
Mana Vault
Windfall

or

Lotus Petal
Mana Vault
Voltaic Key
Academy
Time Spiral

is absurd. Keep in mind you went from a completely interactive format with Mirage Block/Tempest Block/5th to a completely non-interactive turn 1 combo format with Mirage Block rotating out for Saga Block.

There's a gigantic difference in power level between Tolarian Academy and Bitterblossom. Case in point, one was never banned in any format. The other was banned or restricted in every non-limited format.

If you still think this format would have been exciting, I'm guessing you're also the type of player that thinks that Mind's Desire shouldn't have been pre-emptively restricted in Vintage...

Fatestitcher

02-11-2010, 07:59 PM

4 Mind Over Matter
3 Stroke of Genius
4 Voltaic Key
3 Scroll Racks
2 Mox Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mana Vault
2 Meditate
4 Power Sink
4 Time Spiral
4 Windfall
2 Intuition
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Tolarian Academy
12 Island

This shit was legal in STANDARD!

I played Spiral Blue during that era, after Tolarian Academy and Windfall got the first axe, the deck persisted with Dream Halls engine. I got to play the deck in a tournery once before Time Spiral got axed also. I did not quit soon after, I kept the entire deck up to now for nostalgia. Because of my anger with WotC, I decided to play Hatred deck instead. The following tourney, I did manage to beat a weaker offshoot of Mind Over Matter deck which ran Show and Tell. I also remember a fat opponent playing a CIPT land on his first turn. Which on my second turn, I dropped City of Traitors, attacked with Blood Pet then Ritual to Hatred. LOL!

Those were the fucking good old days!

edit: my Tempest Blood Pets look more pimp than 7th ed. in that tag.

Matt Blackburn

02-11-2010, 08:15 PM

That's cute and all, but freakish777 is essentially correct. The two biggest losses in customers and tournament-level players that I can remember stemmed from Urza's Block and unchecked Affinity. Fae may not of been fun to play against over and over, but it was hardly the disaster like those two particular instances were.

thats cute and all, but I wasnt disagreeing with him.

In case you're somehow unaware, low level and casual players account for the majority of Wizards' customer base. And no, you really wouldn't have wanted to play in a format where as the saying goes.

no, thanks, I know exactly who their largest customer base is. the only difference is that the saga block deck was a turn 1-2 combo kill and lorwyn block faeries is like a turn 6, 7, 8, etc control kill. thereby simply giving those same low level casual players the illusion that they still had a chance to win and let them play around a little.

bit ballsy assuming what kind of format I would prefer to play in or guessing what type of player I am. I would rather play fast games than watch some scrub go to time a third round in a row as he tries to hopelessly beat ub fearies with mono G treefolk. Im all for indepth games, but I also know when to just scoop. pride gets in the way too much and I dont have the patience to start a tournament at 8pm and have it go well beyond 2am, because some douchebag doesnt know when to quit.

evilgorrilaz

02-11-2010, 10:42 PM

no, thanks, I know exactly who their largest customer base is. the only difference is that the saga block deck was a turn 1-2 combo kill and lorwyn block faeries is like a turn 6, 7, 8, etc control kill. thereby simply giving those same low level casual players the illusion that they still had a chance to win and let them play around a little.
The illusion is all that matters. Hardcore players will adapt because they love the game more than anything. Casual players are the ones that tend to quit. So long as casual players are happy, Wizards is happy.

freakish777

02-11-2010, 10:58 PM

The illusion is all that matters.

Correct.

@Matt. My assumption is that you're actually a good player and in it for the prizes. Maximizing your payout means you need to not only maximize your percentage chance to win each match, but also increase the number of opponents (so that the amount being paid into the prize pool is higher). Lower tournament turn-out (because the illusion of "winnability" is gone) decreases tournament payout. Incidently, at the top tables in a Faerie Standard Metagame, while luck is still huge (who got the Ancestral Vision + Bitterblossom hand + won the coinflip) there's more luck involved in the Academy Standard match (who won the coinflip and had Academy).

If you were as good as Gary Kasparov at chess, and you played for money in Central Park, it would be to your benefit to make sub-optimal moves to give your opponent the illusion that they can win. Obviously, you wouldn't want to make sub-optimal plays in Magic, since there is luck involved (and you don't want to scoop it up to their topdeck) but giving the opponent to illusion of being able to win because you're taking 1 every upkeep, playing with a bunch of 1/1s and not killing them until turn 8 makes sure that they keep putting money into your pocket as opposed to them quitting because you just keep winning on turn 1 or 2 after making 20 mana and drawing 20 cards.

Occam

02-12-2010, 05:09 AM

I agree with pretty much everything majikal's said and wanted to highlight this very important point.

EDIT: Oh, and MattH and Andrew are pretty much spot on in their assessments as well. WotC couldn't care less about how hard they buttfuck Eternal players because, let's face it, we make up a pretty small minority of the people who purchase their cards. If they think reprinting duals or FOWs or even P9 will increase sales and interest in the game, then they'll reprint them, secondary market values be damned.

I respectfully disagree. Eternal staples are the flagship representatives of the entire game. Ask any magic player who knows anything what the p9 are, and I'd bet my home that they would have heard of them, with an added dash of mystique. Reprinting eternal staples, and I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with that right now for reasons I'll get to later, is like putting up a neon sign denoting that every single player out there is fair game. Reprinting a mox, looked at in a vacuum, is unlikely to harm more players than Standard manabase costs going up to $500 for viable decks, but you can be sure that the fallout will be a lot greater for the former.

On availability, I don't think this is a huge issue. Most legacy staples are now available in what I believe to be larger quantities since prices have risen recently, but they've always been available online even before the recent spikes in prices. The issue isn't really one of availability, it is one of price and the accessibility that is denied as a result of price. That immediately says that any solution that wants to introduce more new players to eternal formats needs to address the price issue, not necessarily that of availability, even though economics links both together. Thus, any solution that creates new quantities of staples but which does not reduce the prices of those cards is likely to do very little or nothing but increase the number of ways in which the doors are shut in players' faces. That basically means that if wotc wants to solve this issue, they likely have to use non-foil, white bordered reprints in varying quantities depending on the cards in question.

That basically leads to the next issue as a result of reprinting. Good? Bad? My opinion is that everyone needs to understand that magic is popular and alive today BOTH because of the collectibility of the cards as well as the playability of the game. Not just the playability. Not just the card values and collectibility. Speaking solely from a player's point of view and taking the interests of that side alone isn't fair, and speaking solely from a collector's/speculator's/dealer's point of view is basically asking for a golden handshake where none exists. Scrapping the reserve list is one thing, reprinting eternal staples and signalling that basically every card is possibly up for reprinting is another. I have stated before that my opinion is that a corporation's first and foremost duty is to create value for its shareholders (Hasbro is public), which is intrinsically tied with its bottom line, but the possible ramifications of reprinting staples are huge. It isn't just about being Chronicles mk II. Chronicles created chaos despite tanking values that were high due to scarcity and collectibility (like the LG legends). Reprinting staples goes far beyond that -- it'd basically be like what would have happened if top-tier cards of those days like Juzam or the Moxen were reprinted in Chronicles, with the possibility of future reprinting very real. Wotc (and Hasbro) have no legal culpability if they abolish and violate their gentleman's agreement, but the loss of goodwill and confidence could be huge. Look at the issues that Toyota is facing due to its sudden drop in manufacturing quality -- its seeming violation of the promise of absolute, top-of-the-line safety excellence is creating a lot more intangible issues that go beyond the costs involved with recalling a number of cars and suspending some factory work. The same risks apply for wotc. They WILL increase sales by reprinting staples, but as long as they state that they are reprinting said staples for the sake of increased availability and the addressing of price issues, a slew of issues might arise that make the costs higher than the benefits.

Before I get slammed for not caring about the health of the format, I do. I would like to see new players taking up legacy and vintage. I just think that as most people seem to be in favour of reprints, there are risks involved. It isn't just about making a few reprints and then we get a Carebears and rainbows (and Tarmogoyfs, since that bastard is everywhere) kind of scenario. I'm also going to add in the caveat that I don't mind losing card value (a lot of what I own aren't normal cards anyway), and that I'm not in the game to make money. I think that something needs to be done to address price levels and accessibility, but abolishing the reserved list, changing the unwritten reprint policy to allow all cards to be potentially reprinted, and then reprinting staples is dangerous. Wizards can easily take baby steps by reprinting portal or starter cards first, as well as seriously exploring the printing of sanctioned proxies (only legal in eternal), with their usage capped to a small number in each eternal deck. No point betting the future of the game on an issue which might be solved with less drastic measures.

On a sidenote, I've also read certain statements (not necessarily just here but on salvation as well), that it's fine if people who are in the game to make a profit are burned, and that speculators are basically evil. What? Without having to point out that it sounds incredibly bitter. If someone has the correct knowledge and information access, and is willing to spend time making arbitrage or speculative profits while taking on the risks involved (eg price changes that cause losses), fine with me. They provide liquidity to the market and help dealers to survive. It isn't the same situation as with Standard and Extended players who constantly endure paper losses due to rotation, as the aims of those segments are different anyway. While it isn't conclusive evidence, a walk down to salvation will also show that plenty of the people who feel that speculators can be burnt are creating threads identifying possible sleepers and buying playsets of cards like Eye of Ugin "in case they rise". Meh.

ryO!

02-12-2010, 06:42 AM

Please, stop saying that starter/portal should be reprinted, no they shouldn't ever, their scarcity is is far from being the main issue here or an issue at all. I tend to agree the rest though.

Nocco

02-12-2010, 08:10 AM

I respectfully disagree.

With what exactly? Because I'm positive that us Eternal players aren't who WotC is catering to. We don't buy every single from the new set to put in our T2 decks. We don't crack boxes upon boxes looking for a shiny mythic to put in our Treefolk Kraken deck. We buy maybe 5 cards from a new set if they're Legacy playable. Casual players and, to a lesser extent, Standark players are who WotC mainly cares about pleasing (*COUGH*Mythic Rares*COUGH*).

Although I do believe that you bring up a good point with the whole Toyota customer backlash/loss of faith point. If WotC does infact do something like FTV: P9, the customer backlash and loss of faith will indeed be pretty big, but I don't think it will be that big of a deal, seeing as the people who it affects most are mostly a minority. Kitchen table players could care less about this shit.

Ozymandias

02-12-2010, 08:43 AM

You don't get it, do you? If they reprinted the Power 9, in a box set or as reprints or something. THE ENTIRE SYSTEM WOULD COLLAPSE. Magic is not just a card game: if it were, you would be able to buy a box and see every card represented there, like Munchkin or Fluxx or Guillotine. Instead, it's a collectible card game. Without scarcity, there's really no collectibility, and the value of every single magic card-not just the P9-would tank. Because it would show that wizards could just print whatever the hell they want, making previous gradations of rarity worthless.

Occam

02-12-2010, 08:56 AM

Please, stop saying that starter/portal should be reprinted, no they shouldn't ever, their scarcity is is far from being the main issue here or an issue at all. I tend to agree the rest though.

Scarcity is the main reason starter and portal are expensive. There is absolutely no reason why fringe legacy cards like imperial recruiter, grim tutor et al are expensive if not for scarcity -- it sure as anything isn't playability. What, in your eyes, is the main issue then?

With what exactly? Because I'm positive that us Eternal players aren't who WotC is catering to. We don't buy every single from the new set to put in our T2 decks. We don't crack boxes upon boxes looking for a shiny mythic to put in our Treefolk Kraken deck. We buy maybe 5 cards from a new set if they're Legacy playable. Casual players and, to a lesser extent, Standark players are who WotC mainly cares about pleasing (*COUGH*Mythic Rares*COUGH*).

Although I do believe that you bring up a good point with the whole Toyota customer backlash/loss of faith point. If WotC does infact do something like FTV: P9, the customer backlash and loss of faith will indeed be pretty big, but I don't think it will be that big of a deal, seeing as the people who it affects most are mostly a minority. Kitchen table players could care less about this shit.

I'm not disagreeing that Wizards probably values the Standard and Extended community more. I'm disagreeing with what you said about Wizards screwing eternal over, because as far as reprints go, eternal staples are exactly the cards that Wizards cannot afford to willfully reprint. It isn't that Wizards treats eternal positively by choice (even though there have been cards designed FOR eternal in recent sets), but that Wizards may not be able to treat eternal badly in this particular area.

I believe that a FTV: P9 is exactly the kind of solution that is like watching a chicken getting slaughtered at a circus. No fun for you, no fun for the butcher, and certainly no fun for the chicken. If they were to follow the previous FTV installments, regardless of what the MSRP is, you better believe that the prices will be astronomical anyway, and unless you believe that a lack of cards is the issue for P9 instead of price, introducing foil P9 isn't going to solve anything but will instead cause said lack of faith and piss the Standard community off further.

Kitchen table players aren't really the issue here then. They don't really care if cards are reprinted, and they don't really care about being able to play sanctioned eternal either. It works both ways. Plus, plenty of casual players have eternal staples. They just don't play eternal constructed.

ryO!

02-12-2010, 09:20 AM

Scarcity is the main reason starter and portal are expensive. There is absolutely no reason why fringe legacy cards like imperial recruiter, grim tutor et al are expensive if not for scarcity -- it sure as anything isn't playability. What, in your eyes, is the main issue then?

As it s a collectible game, there are no reason to print those scarce promotional sets again. Not everyone can afford them? Seriously i don't care and no one should. Those are extremly low printed cards (compared to the rest of the other sets) and none of those is broken enough that you need them in ever single deck. Imperial is played in only one deck, Loyal Retainers is only needed *1 in one deck, grim tutor isn't even played, ravages of war is just a fancy thing in your deck and that goes for every cards of those extensions. So my main issue about those sets is : there is no issue at all so it is pointless & irrelevant to wish for their reprint. If i follow your statement they also should reprint Juzam and all those really expensive, scarce but yet not that playbable cards.
The main problem is most of the people here seems to have played legacy for ages, and yet realise just now that Underground sea or Mox diamond are good cards so they have to buy them for the "nowadays" price and not the "for ages" one.

android

02-12-2010, 09:57 AM

Every perspective on this issue has pretty much been covered so far in this thread so I won't waste space and reiterate what's already written here other than say that I would fully support reprinting of rare sought after cards in a severely limited run. I think we can all agree that the FTV series is kind of a joke and despite some saying it was impossible for them to pick up (at retail), I really don't give a shit about that.

What I would like to see would be a good selection of playable and nostalgic cards printed non-foil (probably new frame) released only to B&M stores with a requirement that people only get say 1 pack per DCI #. This get a bit tricky as there are all sorts of shifty stores out there and there is likely to be some of these that make it onto the secondary market at a significant increase in price. It might be more realistic to release the set in the old 75 card tourney packs so you at least get a good selection from the set. There should be more than four tiers of rarity for these but obviously with all cards being "playable" you should never feel like you got shafted.

In summary:

Awesome old cards
Wide variety of rarities
Available in super limited amount (1 pack per interested party on average - maybe as prize support for a 1 time worldwide tourney)
B&M stores only to control distribution (sorry TOs and online behemoths)

Occam

02-12-2010, 11:22 AM

As it s a collectible game, there are no reason to print those scarce promotional sets again. Not everyone can afford them? Seriously i don't care and no one should. Those are extremly low printed cards (compared to the rest of the other sets) and none of those is broken enough that you need them in ever single deck. Imperial is played in only one deck, Loyal Retainers is only needed *1 in one deck, grim tutor isn't even played, ravages of war is just a fancy thing in your deck and that goes for every cards of those extensions. So my main issue about those sets is : there is no issue at all so it is pointless & irrelevant to wish for their reprint. If i follow your statement they also should reprint Juzam and all those really expensive, scarce but yet not that playbable cards.
The main problem is most of the people here seems to have played legacy for ages, and yet realise just now that Underground sea or Mox diamond are good cards so they have to buy them for the "nowadays" price and not the "for ages" one.

The point that is being made here is that certain steps may need to be taken to prevent legacy from becoming the second coming of vintage. That I agree with. What I didn't agree with is that if step 1 is legacy being in danger of becoming Vintage, step 2 should be to reprint everything. Reprinting playables that are scarce is a partial solution that doesn't circumvent promises made to the playerbase and will not evoke the outcry and loss of faith that outright reprinting of staples would.

As for your point that the cards from portal and starter aren't widely played, that was partially the point. Enabling decks that play these to be formed at more efficient costs isn't a panacea, but any help is better than none. And no, Juzam isn't playable at all in legacy. The SCD thread for it pretty much covered the bases there.

The main problem isn't that U Sea or Mox Diamond have only recently been discovered. It is that a self-fulfilling prophecy is being perpetuated when people are seeing certain inflated/speculatory prices being paid, and then deciding that current prices are lower than the inflated prices, pushing prices up until they hit the inflated price level, at which point the entire cycle can start again at higher prices. Excessive doomsaying on forums only fuels that fire.

In summary:

Awesome old cards
Wide variety of rarities
Available in super limited amount (1 pack per interested party on average - maybe as prize support for a 1 time worldwide tourney)
B&M stores only to control distribution (sorry TOs and online behemoths)

I freaking hope not!

/End hyprocrisy

MattH

02-12-2010, 03:00 PM

thats cute and all, but I wasnt disagreeing with him.
no, thanks, I know exactly who their largest customer base is. the only difference is that the saga block deck was a turn 1-2 combo kill and lorwyn block faeries is like a turn 6, 7, 8, etc control kill. thereby simply giving those same low level casual players the illusion that they still had a chance to win and let them play around a little.
It's kind of irrelevant to talk about goldifsh turns or whatever, because we're not talking about brokenness but rather likeability. People will hate what they hate, and you're not going to convince a quitting Magic player to come back by pointing out how fair the dominant deck du jour is.

TheAardvark

02-12-2010, 03:08 PM

I'm not disagreeing that Wizards probably values the Standard and Extended community more.

For the record, there isn't really an "Extended community"; people who play Extended are almost exclusively PTQ players, and they'll play whatever is in season at the time.

Regarding talk of WotC pandering to "casual" players and the like: what would YOU do in their place? Would you dedicate more time and effort to a "community" that, overall, isn't very large and doesn't contribute to your bottom line in any direct manner, aside from the 2 GPs every 2 years you run for that format? A company can't please everyone with their product, but they can target their largest potential audience and please them and be successful in doing so.

Of course, maybe I am just wrong.

android

02-12-2010, 03:09 PM

I freaking hope not!

All I'm saying is don't have everyone who opens a super pack get an underground sea. That would be absurd. I think the cards should be significantly shorter print runs than the originals, thus rarer. It should be like a treasure hunt but not such an impossible treasure hunt that you come away from it feeling like you got nothing. You would open some awesome cards but the set should be big enough and with enough rarities that it would be like 1/10,000 that you would get something like a sea. That should keep all the fearmongers quiet as it should ensure the stability of the secondary market but also introduce some high priced cards into it. I don't know what the big problem is. Everyone likes to whine alot I guess.

Otter

02-14-2010, 03:29 PM

I'm interested in getting a Tabernacle (English, not HP), but I'm not in a huge rush to get it. Any time in the next six months or so would be fine. Anyone got recommendations on how to do it? I suspect that the price is only going to go up and I should just buy the damn thing and get it over with before things get worse. Is that a reasonable assumption or is there any reason I should wait?

dahcmai

02-14-2010, 11:10 PM

To be honest it depends on you. Ask yourself these questions.

1. Do you plan to keep it for a long time and not re-sell it after some large tournament like a Star City 5k or something?
2. Do you care how fast you get one?
3. Is $300 a drop in the bucket to you (as in not even close to a full paycheck)?
4. Do you have the rest of the cards for 43 lands?

If you said Yes to most of these I would buy one now. Otherwise, I would wait until some of these recent Legacy tournaments are done. It should drop some since it's such a fringe card, but I wouldn't expect it too much. It's high demand right now especially given the high placings the deck has had lately.

I'd try for the rare deal on Ebay personally. The web stores I have noticed are trying to squeeze what they can out of the stock they have since it's not an easily replaced card. Shop around, you should be able to beat most of the online stores prices by quite a bit if you hunt.

I assume you want it for 43 lands. I only asked about the rest of the deck because it's one expensive deck and does have some glaring weaknesses. I play it quite a bit. People luckily don't board much for it, but if it keeps winning these tournies, people will figure it out and it's not too hard to hate on. I'd only buy one if I already owned all the duals and fetches, those are worth more in the long run and will go up in price faster I'd warrant.

xTrainx

02-15-2010, 11:52 AM

Part of me is wishing Wizards would at least make some sort of announcement along these lines - or even make an announcement detailing an upcoming product, that, in itself would answer our questions.

But...this ain't a Wizards forum.

troopatroop

02-15-2010, 09:07 PM

Just sharing some personal experiences buying cards for U/B Reanimator. Prices are after shipping.

4x Underground Sea $220 (55 each)
4x Entomb $80 (20 each)
4x Thoughtseize $40 (10 each)
4x Polluted Delta $80 (20 each)
4x Force of Will $100 (25 each)
4x Mystical Tutor $16 (4 each)

Forces, Seas, Entombs, AND Thoughtseizes were less than I thought they'd be. Mysticals and Deltas hurt, however. All in all, these prices don't seem that painful compared to what people are saying they're like here. You can still hunt for deals and be patient! That is $500 or so, but it's the majority of a deck, and mostly all upscale cards that retain value. Cards that are solid investments are going to be expensive, it only makes sense.

MattH

02-16-2010, 03:47 PM

FWIW, Richard Garfield has some thoughts about card prices:

http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/articles/-/Richard_Garfield%3A_%2450_is_Too_Much

MMogg

02-16-2010, 05:31 PM

FWIW, Richard Garfield has some thoughts about card prices:

http://www.thestarkingtonpost.com/articles/-/Richard_Garfield%3A_%2450_is_Too_Much

What the hell does he know, he's not some kind of genius mathematician who invented the game... oh... wut? He did?

Seriously, he is – of course – right on the money (no pun intended). For the longest time, $20 was the typical chase rare price and that seems reasonable.

Thanks for the link. It will be interesting to see this documentary in full.

from Cairo

02-16-2010, 11:13 PM

For the longest time, $20 was the typical chase rare price and that seems reasonable.

I was thinking this too. I started around 1999 and played through 2003, and I always remembered the in-print Standard chase cards being $18-22. The hype card of a particular season would be high, and then the other played rares would be in the $5-15ish range; even Lorowyn/Shards standard more or less followed this formula- Cryptic, Reflecting Pool, Bitterblossem, then a slightly lower tier of like Figure of Destiny, Thoughtseize, Planeswalkers, etc and then filler rares that saw play, like the filter lands, and whatever else.

Pre-Mythic Rares and with the exception of Tarmogoyf, was anything really breaking this trend that drastically?

dahcmai

02-16-2010, 11:35 PM

I remember Mutavault, Bitterblossom, and Reflecting Pool were fairly bad. I don't quite remember where they leveled off at, but they weren't cheap. I remember a lot of bitching about them.

It's nice to see Garfield himself agree with the players though.

majikal

02-16-2010, 11:35 PM

Pre-Mythic Rares and with the exception of Tarmogoyf, was anything really breaking this trend that drastically?
I blame the massive influx of ex-Yugioh players into the scene who are used to paying outrageous prices for their cards.

I remember Mutavault, Bitterblossom, and Reflecting Pool were fairly bad. I don't quite remember where they leveled off at, but they weren't cheap. I remember a lot of bitching about them.
Mutavault was the only one that got stupidly expensive, and even it topped at about $40. Everything else stayed around $30 or under.

Standard cards aren't really so bad right now. The only real offender is Jace, and even he has leveled off around $45 from what I'm seeing on MOTL. The biggest problem is presale prices - the speculators drive the market into a frenzy initially, but it always levels off a week or two after release.

Surging Chaos

02-17-2010, 12:23 AM

Standard cards aren't really so bad right now. The only real offender is Jace, and even he has leveled off around $45 from what I'm seeing on MOTL. The biggest problem is presale prices - the speculators drive the market into a frenzy initially, but it always levels off a week or two after release.

I can definately agree with this. When everyone and their mother wants a playset of Jace 2, and there are practically none of them in stock because it's a PRE-sale, the price is naturally going to balloon like crazy.

I also think that Wizards clamping down on the spoilers massively has been a factor to this as well. On Salvation, we could have a card get spoiled that turns into a chase rare, but since it was spoiled like three weeks before the pre-release, it gives some time for the hype to cool down. Since Jace 2 was fully spoiled by Wizards like a week and a half before the prelease, the hype started much later before the set was fully spoiled.

I am fully expecting Jace 2 to slowly drop in price over time. Simply put, there will actually be an *increase* in stock to help curb the slowly decreasing demand (now that the initial hype is starting to subside). Unfortunately, we can't say the same for the supply for Legacy staples that have been out of print for well over a decade.

Some Guy

02-17-2010, 10:06 PM

where do you do this PRE-sell I do not understand that ?

mchainmail

02-17-2010, 10:37 PM

where do you do this PRE-sell I do not understand that ?

People that crack large numbers of boxes can sell cards on e-bay ahead of time.

socialite

02-17-2010, 11:11 PM

A handful of people will lose a few hundred dollars apiece

Really disagree here, I would think it would be far more than a few hundred dollars. If my Power, Vintage/Legacy staples were all reprinted I feel as though I would lose a lot of money.

Sure whatever to all the rest.

lordofthepit

02-18-2010, 12:05 AM

I think there's a fine line between responsibly reprinting certain staples such that we can bump the available cardpool and oversaturating the market such that collectors will no longer have confidence in Wizards.

I have a very extensive collection--40 duals, 40 fetches (plus a few extras), playsets of Goyfs, FOWs, Mox Diamonds, Chrome Moxes, LEDs, Dreadnoughts, pretty much 90% of the staples you'd need to play any deck (and I'm still actively working on acquiring the last 10%). But I'm also really just a casual player. I've probably only busted my cards out to play like five times in the last five years, even as I continue to expand my collection to include stuff I don't have. Right now I simply don't have the time to play this game, as much as I enjoy the collectible aspect of the game.

The only way I can justify spending so much money on cards that I hardly ever use is because I have faith that most of the staples will continue to appreciate in price, or at the very least, maintain their value or not plummet significantly. (Aside: It's for this reason I have less problem shelling out $250 for a Mox than $10 for a Standard staple that I know will quickly depreciate.)

If Wizards reprints certain staples responsibly, I'm okay with a minor hit to the value of cards I already have. It ensures that the format will be there if I ever get the time to play more competitively, and financially, it ensures that there will be a steady playerbase and thus demand for the cards I already have, so I don't need to worry about the value of the cards plummeting in the longterm.

On the other hand, if Wizards releases a Chronicles II or absolutely floods the market with the original dual land reprints in a new core set (which will have an massive print run), there will be significant repercussions on the secondary market, which would be absolutely crippling for a collectible card game that will be felt by everyone. Not just collectors, but most long-time players and especially the casual market (players like me) would no longer be able to justify the money we're putting into what are essentially pieces of cardboard. One might underestimate the number of "casual old-school" players like me because we don't tend to pop up on message boards. We may not pour as money into the boosters as say, a hardcore Standard or Limited player, but I still do spend quite a bit of money each year in new products, and I think we play a bigger role that most people realize in shaping the secondary market.

MMogg

02-18-2010, 01:07 AM

I've probably only busted my cards out to play like five times in the last five years, even as I continue to expand my collection to include stuff I don't have. Right now I simply don't have the time to play this game, as much as I enjoy the collectible aspect of the game.

I wonder to what extent MTGO may attract people when Legacy is launched. I know for me, I use it for Pauper since time constraints and the fact that there is no Magic here whatsoever give me no chance to use my paper cards. Now, I am seriously contemplating building an online Legacy deck as a way to stay active. Cards are often cheaper than their paper counterparts (particularly glaring in the case of Moat/Tabernacle). You can also play a game or two whenever you can fit it into your schedule.

With cards like Mox Diamond and LED pretty expensive in the virtual world, I wonder if we will see something there before they start to tamper with the paper realm.

Amon Amarth

02-18-2010, 05:16 AM

DrJones

02-18-2010, 07:19 AM

On the other hand, if Wizards releases a Chronicles II or absolutely floods the market with the original dual land reprints in a new core set (which will have an massive print run), there will be significant repercussions on the secondary market, which would be absolutely crippling for a collectible card game that will be felt by everyone. Not just collectors, but most long-time players and especially the casual market (players like me) would no longer be able to justify the money we're putting into what are essentially pieces of cardboard. One might underestimate the number of "casual old-school" players like me because we don't tend to pop up on message boards. We may not pour as money into the boosters as say, a hardcore Standard or Limited player, but I still do spend quite a bit of money each year in new products, and I think we play a bigger role that most people realize in shaping the secondary market.This one is the argument I can't agree with. Decks using dual lands make for +85% of the format. So restricting access to them is basically shutting the doors to the format. The needs of the game are more important than the needs of a few collectors. I'm fact, I'm so angry at you people hoarding duals that I'll buy WotC right now and flood the market with duals just so that I can recite poems and play the lyre while the values tank.

PD: I own duals and I'm all for reprinting them in core sets. They should have never been in the reserved list to begin with. The people that took them from fourth edition where the same idiots that took Serra Angel out from fifth edition because it was too strong to reprint, anyways. It was a foolish move and they ended stumbling with the stone, but instead of removing the stone they have chosen to close their eyes and keep falling again and again making the situation worse every day. Those people can suck my foot.

MMogg

02-18-2010, 07:39 AM

Zlatzman

02-18-2010, 07:43 AM

I think Duals are a bit too strong for standard personally, but could see them reprinted along with some old and new non-basic hate. Maybe colorless landhate (wasteland)? Or possibly just Magus of the Moon and Back to Basics.

Solaran_X

02-18-2010, 07:46 AM

I own 40 duals (4x each), 4 Tarmogoyfs, 4 Force of Wills, 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds, 20x ZEN fetches, 10x ONS fetches, etc., etc.

And I wouldn't mind seeing WotC reprint stuff like duals and Forces and older staples (Mox Diamond, LED, Dreadnought, etc., etc.). I know a lot of people in my area who would like to get into Legacy, but the initial cost barrier is too high for them (and they understand the reasoning behind Legacy being cheaper in the long run than Standard) with the ridiculous prices of duals, Forces, Goyfs, etc., etc.

I'd love to see a FTV: Lands that included 1 of each dual land in new art, frame, and foiled. Sure, it would be expensive...but when the dust settled, either the FTV duals would be cheaper than Revised (and below) duals, or Revised duals would drop in price as people off loaded them to get the FTV duals. Either way, Legacy would benefit greatly from it.

lordofthepit

02-18-2010, 08:56 AM

This one is the argument I can't agree with. Decks using dual lands make for +85% of the format. So restricting access to them is basically shutting the doors to the format. The needs of the game are more important than the needs of a few collectors. I'm fact, I'm so angry at you people hoarding duals that I'll buy WotC right now and flood the market with duals just so that I can recite poems and play the lyre while the values tank.

PD: I own duals and I'm all for reprinting them in core sets. They should have never been in the reserved list to begin with. The people that took them from fourth edition where the same idiots that took Serra Angel out from fifth edition because it was too strong to reprint, anyways. It was a foolish move and they ended stumbling with the stone, but instead of removing the stone they have chosen to close their eyes and keep falling again and again making the situation worse every day. Those people can suck my foot.

I'm not a collector, I'm a casual player. This is the first time I've heard of someone accuse me of "hoarding duals" just because I went out and acquired a playset of each so that I can play with them.

Magic is a game we all love, but there's no need to get all emotional about the reprint policy. More power to you if you can "buy WotC right now and flood the market with duals". That's an emotional decision that would not be in Wizard's best interests, or your own, financially . (And it would also probably violate a lot of SEC regulations with Wizards being a publicly traded company and everything, but that's not something I want to get into.)

I'm not "hoarding duals" so I can profit off the game. But as a casual player (i.e. someone who will never make money or win prizes from playing competitive Magic), if I see Wizards making a bad financial decision that threatens to undermine the secondary market, I'll going to be less inclined to continue buy cards because without a stable economy to back up their value, they're just pieces of cardboard. That's a personal decision I'm making on a personal level, and I'm sure many more feel the same. I'm not threatening to torture cute furry kittens or anything, so I don't know why felt obligated to get "so angry".

I agree that Wizards need to provide greater access to dual lands. Everyone knows that generating more interest in the Legacy is in everyone recreational (and probably even long-term financial) interests, and I certainly didn't slowly buy such a big collection just so I can sit and admire them by myself (I hope to play with them when I have more time). But to flood the market just so that you can recite poems and play the lyre would be really a irresponsible decision that hurts everyone involved in the game. And surprisingly enough, even though I'm sure you directed that comment to get a reaction out of me, casual players like me who generally are the least emotionally/financially attached to the game probably would come out the least affected. I'd just stop collecting new cards, set them aside untouched for a few years (which I've done three times already), and regard my already acquired collection as a sunk cost. I only hope for the sake of the game that whoever makes decision for Wizard doesn't feel compelled to engage in self-destructive behavior just so they can say "haha, look at you, casual player, we've got you now".

MattH

02-18-2010, 12:33 PM

Not just collectors, but most long-time players and especially the casual market (players like me) would no longer be able to justify the money we're putting into what are essentially pieces of cardboard.

If all of a sudden you can't justify paying $50 for a Tundra...GOOD, that is exactly what we want to have happen! We WANT people to lower what they are willing to pay for cards, that is what a drop in prices IS.

Furthermore, I think you have some very specific blinders on. Do you think anyone who plays standard or extended or even kitchen table Magic expects to be able to resell their cards? Remember, every card in every set since Mercadian Masques has had ZERO promise of non-reprintability. Anyone who buys any card printed since then has done so with no assurance whatsoever that their cards will retain any value. Let me put that in perspective:

90% of the cards from Alpha through Urza's Destiny have zero promise of retaining any value.

Every card in Mercadian Masques has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Nemesis has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Prophecy has zero promise of retaining any value.

Every card in Invasion has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Planeshift has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Apocalypse has zero promise of retaining any value.

Every card in Odyssey has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Torment has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Judgment has zero promise of retaining any value.

Every card in Onslaught has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Legions has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Scourge has zero promise of retaining any value.

Every card in Mirrodin has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Darksteel has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Fifth Dawn has zero promise of retaining any value.

Every card in Champions of Kamigawa has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Betrayers of Kamigawa has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Saviors of Kamigawa has zero promise of retaining any value.

Every card in Ravnica has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Guildpact has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Dissension has zero promise of retaining any value.

Every card in Time Spiral has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Planar Chaos has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Future Sight has zero promise of retaining any value.

Every card in Coldsnap has zero promise of retaining any value.

Every card in Lorwyn has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Morningtide has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Shadowmoor has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Eventide has zero promise of retaining any value.

Every card in Shards of Alara has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Conflux has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Alara Reborn has zero promise of retaining any value.

Every card in Zendikar has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Worldwake has zero promise of retaining any value.

Every card in 7th edition has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in 8th edition has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in 9th edition has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in 10th edition has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in M2010 has zero promise of retaining any value.

Every card in Portal has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Portal Second Age has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Portal three Kingdoms has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Starter and Starter 2000 has zero promise of retaining any value.

Every card in every version of these sets released on Magic Online has zero promise of retaining any value, and this includes Master's Edition I, II, and III, which contain staples such as FoW and duals and also some P3K cards.

That is a HUGE amount of cards that are bought and sold with absolutely no guarantee that Wizards won't reprint the shit out of them tomorrow. People have bought and sold these cards, establishing a market successfully for over a decade without any safety net. It's really the height of narcissism to think that a threat to the market for the cards on the reserved list is anything close to a threat to the market for Magic cards as a whole.

lordofthepit

02-18-2010, 05:56 PM

If all of a sudden you can't justify paying $50 for a Tundra...GOOD, that is exactly what we want to have happen! We WANT people to lower what they are willing to pay for cards, that is what a drop in prices IS.

This is going to be my last post on this topic. I'm willing to discuss this issue intelligently with the Source community, because I think it's very important for the long-term health of Legacy (and Magic overall). But it's not fun to argue when you're just making up positions and attributing them to me, so I don't want to go on trying to distance myself from positions that I've never taken.

I've never said anything to suggest that a $50 Tundra is healthy for the game. In fact, I've done the opposite, explicitly stating that I think Wizards needs to reprint staples in a responsible manner. To me, that means increasing the supply in a controlled fashion such that Tundras can hover around $20. I think that would represent a perfectly reasonable barrier to entry for the format, and I'd be fine with that compromise, even though I lose financially (I paid around $30 each for mine). I don't view Magic as some kind of investment, and I'm perfectly willing to take a bit of a hit to the value of my collection to promote the long-term health of the game.

Where I disagree is with reprinting dual lands in a core set with such massive print runs. The Zendikar fetchlands are $9 each and steadily dropping as we speak, and I would say that to a good approximation, fetchlands are used as much as dual lands in every format in which they are legal; in other words, there is equal demand. (True, some decks will prefer to use more duals than fetches, whereas others will use more fetches than duals to take advantage of benefits such as shuffling and filling the graveyard.) If we made dual land reprints available on such a large scale, in addition to the dual lands that are already available, we would have a significantly greater supply of dual lands than fetchlands, with comparable demand, so I can easily see the value of duals plummeting to $10-12 ("pimped" versions notwithstanding). This is based purely on an approximation of supply versus demand, and doesn't even account for the impact of the backlash from players unhappy with the new reprints. Greater supply by itself is a good thing, but it has significant, likely unpredictable, consequences on the stability of the Magic economy that I don't think is worth risking.

Thanks for taking almost two pages to state that the reserve list doesn't cover a lot of cards, which you could have said rather succinctly. But what you're failing to account for is that it's not so much the explicit reserve policy that holds up the secondary market, but rather, the expectation that certain cards won't get reprinted in such massive quantities. If Wizards tomorrow announced that they would reprint in M11 Mana Drain, Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, Grim Tutor, Strategic Planning, Loyal Retainers, Imperial Seal, etc., I'm sure there would be quite a reaction from the Magic community even without violating a single word of their reprint policy.

I'm not discussing this from the perspective of my personal financial interests. There are still many more cards I'd love to acquire some day (Tabernacle, Moat, Mana Drain, Bazaars, Workshops, Power 9 minus Ruby, "Portal powers", etc.). For the sake of argument, let's suppose I had the ability to tell Wizards which cards to reprint in M11. One would think I would benefit if I told them to reprint exactly the cards that I am still looking to acquiring, while excluding from M11 the cards that I already do own. But I also understand that such reprinting would affect the stability of the "Magic economy", and thus be detrimental to the long-term health of the game.

The reprint policy should not be viewed as a struggle between "haves" and "have nots". Decisions should be made judiciously, balancing the need to address the increasing demand for cards by a responsible increase in supply, while still being sensitive to the effects on the secondary market, which is vital to the long-term health of the game. Would the game die if Wizards reprinted Tarmogoyf--a very powerful and expensive card--in M11? Probably not, but the cumulative effect of reprinting many expensive Legacy staples in a set with such a huge printrun would be detrimental to the game, and that's why I'm advocating for responsible reprinting (probably done in some type of premium set like From the Vault or as part of a Rewards program, although I'm not sure on the details of such).

With that said, I'm bowing out of this topic, because I do not want to bother with having to reply to posts in which people are putting words in my mouth that I have never spoken.

anonymos

02-19-2010, 12:42 AM

workingdude

02-19-2010, 01:35 PM

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/18824_Insider_Trading_The_Cost_of_Cards_Mr_Bleiweiss_goes_to_Washington_Part_2_of_3.html

Here is today's article by Ben Bleiweiss on SCG. I think he does a REALLY good job of presenting an argument in favor of getting rid of the reserve list. I'd love to see the dual land mail in program he talks about there go into effect. It'd be chaos though. Would they give NM new versions for beat to hell revised duals? What about NM ones? I'd be annoyed if I got the exact same thing for both unless my duals were beat to hell.

Either way, read it with an open mind.

Ya its the first time i've heard of the mailing thing. I think it should be for any condition duals, because the theory is to double the amount of a certain card. I'd be all for that.

Otherwize, if reserved list is abolished and a major reprint of a staple is reprinted, I'd probably go ahead and cash out.

Aleksandr

02-19-2010, 05:03 PM

I am not even sure if I like this game anymore...

I played in a 14 ppl tournament today with Ichorid and finished 1:2 due to unbelievably crap luck in rounds 2+3. Losing to double Wasteland from the top (when the only thing I needed to win was the Colliseum activation) was very unpleasant indeed, but losing round three because I've drawn sideboard cards had extreme "WTF?" aspect.

A day or two before my wedding I sold some stuff from my collection. Just some duals and more expensive stuff and I am really happy with that move. The prices of staples (and not only of them) are far beyond ridicule. Goyf? 1650 CZK. (I bought playset for 200 crowns three years ago.) Angel of Kiddies' Wet Dreams? Over one thousand crowns. Dark Depths? Five hundred. Elspeth? Entomb? Eight hundred. Same goes for Force, 'Nought, even crap like Jace. Sliver Queen? (Yeah, I know you have to look it up in Gatherer...) 590 crowns. Shaharazad (banned from M:tG!) costs over thousand crowns and they have exactly none in stock. Tabernacle? You're straight kidding me... 3200 CZK.

I hope that I find the strength to further restrict my collection and in the next twelve months I end with a deck or two and as few crap in a binder as possible. I start to really hate MtG. I know that this happens from time to time, it is just usual "sinusoity" and I'll return back to the game after few years. But right now I feel like a total moron every time I just catch a glimpse of my Magic box.

So yeah, reprint whatever you want, cause I officially quit. Just wait until I sell my cards...

MattH

02-19-2010, 05:20 PM

But it's not fun to argue when you're just making up positions and attributing them to me
Okay, if I have misconstrued your position, I apologize. I did not mean to do so. Here is the larger quote:

The only way I can justify spending so much money on cards that I hardly ever use is because I have faith that most of the staples will continue to appreciate in price, or at the very least, maintain their value or not plummet significantly. (Aside: It's for this reason I have less problem shelling out $250 for a Mox than $10 for a Standard staple that I know will quickly depreciate.)
I took this to mean that you desire that staples should maintain their current prices. Meaning your preferred future is one where dual lands maintain their $45-$60 price tag, FoW maintains its $35 price, etc. I think this was a very reasonable way to read your words, given the bolded part. Nothing in the above quote suggests that you would find a $20 Tundra acceptable (and as a $20 Tundra IS a "significant plummet" from its current price, so in fact your statements seem directly contradictory), so if I did not portray your position accurately, that is why.

That said, look at quotes like:

I'm sure there would be quite a reaction from the Magic community even without violating a single word of their reprint policy.

the cumulative effect of reprinting many expensive Legacy staples in a set with such a huge printrun would be detrimental to the game

Decisions should be made judiciously, balancing the need to address the increasing demand for cards by a responsible increase in supply, while still being sensitive to the effects on the secondary market, which is vital to the long-term health of the game.

That kind of hyperbole is why I made my point in the exhaustive way I did. I wanted to highlight how ridiculous it is to portray the downsides of reprints as a threat to the entire Magic community, or the game as a whole. I wanted to point out that the Magic community, as a whole, finds the very concept of a reserved list alien and laughable. And I wanted to point out that the secondary market for reserved list cards is NOT vital to the long-term health of the game, because it's such a small portion of the secondary market.

Ben Bleiweiss makes this point very succinctly: even without a reserved list, people still buy and sell $100 Tarmogoyfs and $35 FoW and $20 Jittes and $120 Grim Tutors and lots of other expensive cards. The secondary market for expensive cards would do just fine without a reserved list, and I know this because it's doing so right now. The claim that spending on Magic would be seriously impacted without the reserved list (the "take my ball and go home" threat) has no basis in fact. It is a myth., and arguments based on it are fallacious.