[Official] Bitching About Prices, Buyouts and Reprints Thread

[Dazed]

Wasteland has just doubled its price in the last month. Star City is selling it for $25. Even Troll and Toad is offering this tempest rare land for $20. This cards, if I am not committing a mistake, closed the year 2009 in a healthy 10 dollars per each.

Mox Diamond was about $28 on October or so. I selled four of them for a hundred bucks just to find out that today, stores are willing to sell them for no less than $40.

Why is this happening?

I thought this was related to the Grand Prix of Madrid. But other staples are not getting that huge impact on their price tags. Force of Will is still $35 and even dual lands are in a stable moment right now (just some minor variations on Tropical Island).

[mchainmail]

The two biggest decks in the SCG 5ks are Merfolk and 43 Lands / Aggro Loam, and those two cards are in them.

[dahcmai]

43 Lands seems to be the biggest influence. It's quite good as long as Tendrils decks stay out of it's way. It explains the exorbitant price on Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale also.

[MMogg]

Even Troll and Toad is offering this tempest rare land for $20.

The thing is, it's an uncommon. I really hope they reprint Wasteland if only to keep the prices affordable. Great does not equal broken, and I don't think they should foster an environment of $20+ uncommons. Hell, Birds of Paradise used to be worth something when I first started playing and now it's just a $5 rare and black bordered, and all because of printing it over and over.

Anyway, how many more price threads are we going to see in 2010? :wink: :tongue:

[Pastorofmuppets]

... Whoah, people use Mox Diamond in Merfolk now?

[stacker]

Obviously not

[Brushwagg]

It has alot to do with the GPs coming up. Alot of players that are going to go to them aren't Legacy players. So they will have to pick up cards to play the "hot decks". So SCG and the like can't really get away with charging a stupid amount for LoA.

Also Wasteland is played in alot of other decks in Legacy as well. As for Tabernacle and Mox Diamond, there isn't alot those cards out there. The Stores know that, that's why they offer a big amount for them and sell for alot also.

[Pastorofmuppets]

It has alot to do with the GPs coming up. Alot of players that are going to go to them aren't Legacy players. So they will have to pick up cards to play the "hot decks". So SCG and the like can't really get away with charging a stupid amount for LoA.

Also Wasteland is played in alot of other decks in Legacy as well. As for Tabernacle and Mox Diamond, there isn't alot those cards out there. The Stores know that, that's why they offer a big amount for them and sell for alot also.

Waste also seems to party all day in slower Vintage metas too.

[Philipp2293]

Loyal Retainers also saw a rise in price, before Iona was printed it was an obscure rare uncommon, but now I don't see any on Ebay and english ones are up to 95 Euro on Magickartenmarkt.

[Brushwagg]

Loyal Retainers also saw a rise in price, before Iona was printed it was an obscure rare uncommon, but now I don't see any on Ebay and english ones are up to 95 Euro on Magickartenmarkt.

Don't forget Loyal Retainers was only printed in Portal 3 Kingdoms, which is very hard to find and the price will continue to rise because of that.

[Philipp2293]

I'm still not sure if I should pick up the other 3 japanese for a reasonable price or wait if english ones come down a bit.

[Dan Turner]

we need a from the vault: rare uncommons

Loyal retainer
wasteland
force of will
reset

pretty sure there are tons of others

[Philipp2293]

Goglin Lackey
Aether Vial
Imperial Recruiter

[Brushwagg]

I'm still not sure if I should pick up the other 3 japanese for a reasonable price or wait if english ones come down a bit.

That depends. Are you going to turn around and sell them or use them? If your going to try to sell, the price might go up, you just need to find a buyer.

[Philipp2293]

I'd use them for play, but the option of an increase an value might be a nice bonus. I already have one for Survival/Iona-action, but I plan on building the I will survive deck and I don't really want to pay a huge sum on 3 Retainers cause I missed the trend.

[Reverend Damaged]

we need a from the vault: rare uncommons

Loyal retainer
wasteland
force of will
reset

pretty sure there are tons of others


Don't forget Sea Drake!

[sauce]

yeah moat was $80 6 months ago and now is $150
tabernacle was $100 and is now $200+

[dahcmai]

Thee Kingdoms cards will not go down. I can guarantee that. They are silly rare to try and collect for a set and if it's actually a playable card it will do nothing but go up unless a card is printed that outdates it (and might not even then) or is a reprint.

Even the worst cards of that set demand a hefty tag.


It was the price of Cabal Therapy that had my interest. Foil ones are starting to get silly.

[majikal]

It was the price of Cabal Therapy that had my interest. Foil ones are starting to get silly.
Where are you seeing this? Foil ones appear to be around $10 still.

[SlopeeJ]

I think that is what he is talking about, I got my foil fnm ones for 5 when bloodghast first came out.

[majikal]

I think that is what he is talking about, I got my foil fnm ones for 5 when bloodghast first came out.
That's about how much the FNM ones are still going for, even on SCG. The regular foil ones have been $10 for ages.

[Phoenix Ignition]

How much is loyal retainers at? I swear it was at 40 a week ago.

Isn't that only used in bant survival anyway?

[paK0]

On mkm there are 2 right now

Japanese for 55 bucks
and English for 170.

I havent seen any on ebay.

Just picked up 3 for 55 a piece, I checked over the last few weeks and nerarly every single one in stock got bought.

Maybe I keep one and resell the other two when I can get even.

It was used exclusively in BantSur, but some "normal" Survivals seem to apply the tech as well.

[Julian23]

The last available one just broke 280 Euros.

[paK0]

I don't think thats gonna sell, srsly, no way this thing is worth 3 recruiters.

[Piceli89]

I can't get you guys on complaining about this. If you're buying from privates, you will always find a way to pay cards for the right cost. It's obvious that Starcitygames and such will carry on lifting the prices, as long as there are dumb people who get out their credit card of the pocket instead of moving ass a bit and searching at local tourneys, with the consequences of paying twice the right price of a card.
I can buy a set of Wasteland for 35 euros, and this is from quite 2 years. Tabernacle is still at 60 euros; Force are set cold on 75 euros from 2 years. And I live in Italy, which is the country of thiefs, heck, you can see it even from the government!

Seriously, avoid SCG and get some contacts with the right people. There are tons of possibilities to get cards without being ass-raped, even nowadays.

[Brushwagg]

Just to throw this out there that Dreamhalls and Show and Tell are both on the rise. I looked on E-bay for shits and both are around 50 for a play set.

[cdr]

Those prices will not last long Piceli, if indeed they exist.

[majikal]

The last available one just broke 280 Euros.
Really. I just bought mine today for USD39.99 on CardKingdom. :eyebrow:

Edit: Looks like I got there just in time. They're all gone now.

I'm not understanding the sudden, huge price-jump on this guy honestly. He's used as a 1-of in an archetype that isn't extremely popular.

[rockout]

I bought 4 show and tells for 30 shipped today on ebay. Not 50 yet.

[Dan Turner]

I gave my play-set of Japanese show and tells away to a friend for his birthday last month because they was a card he wanted and they was cheap at the time :mad:

[grahf]

As long as we're complaining about card prices, Elspeth has been spiralling upwards lately as well. She was holding steady at $20-25 for a long time, but apparently Extended finally realized she was good, and now it's ~$35, with some sellers pushing it towards 40.

Didn't stop me from buying two just now, because, well, I need them for the deck I want to play. :( Obviously that's the mentality that pushes card prices up. In short it's never been a better time to already own expensive cards.

Also, there's a neat website called Black Lotus Project (http://blacklotusproject.com/) that tracks card prices over time using MOTL data.

[MurA33]

abugames still has loyal retainers at $40. not many left but they are still in stock.

[Phoenix Ignition]

abugames still has loyal retainers at $40. not many left but they are still in stock.

Asian one going for 35, no English though.

[majikal]

abugames still has loyal retainers at $40. not many left but they are still in stock.
Not anymore! Why do I get the feeling one person is buying them all? There's really no use for more than one of them in any deck, so it doesn't make sense for them to start disappearing from the market so rapidly like this.

[sunshine]

Asian one going for 35, no English though.

Wow, I literally just bought one for $20 two weeks ago.

Also, I noticed that SCG doubled their price for Dream Halls this past week from $4.99 to $9.99. A set that I was watching on Ebay just topped $60 with over two days left :rolleyes:.

[majikal]

ITT: Cards used in fringe decks inexplicably rise to astronomical prices!

[sauce]

show and tell / dream halls.dec is crap, i hope everyone plays it.

[heroicraptor]

MOTL still has FOW for $25ish

[Julian23]

Bought English Loyal Retainers for 25 Euro two weaks ago. This week I bought ELEVEN Dream Halls from the local store for 2 Euro each and put them on magickartenmarkt for 7 each. I was sold out after two hours. Seems fair.

[Valdez]

Just to throw this out there that Dreamhalls and Show and Tell are both on the rise. I looked on E-bay for shits and both are around 50 for a play set.
I bought a korean SaT for 3€ an got it on Sunday the 01/02/10. ;)
I've also bought Retainers for 16€.
Hail me.

[Dan Turner]

any guesses on a Korean Show and tell price wise I found one in a pile of cards just now.

[Julian23]

I guess more than the 75 cent I paid for a Foil MM Dark Ritual.

[workingdude]

What are the chances that this is part of a bubble?

And what happens when the bubble pops?

[Dan Turner]

And what happens when the bubble pops?

We ask congress for a bailout...sorry I could not resist it.

Problem people have a hard time selling magic cards for less then what they paid it is why staples will shoot up fast as hell but drop very very slowly.

[Brushwagg]

And what happens when the bubble pops?

That happens when everyone discovers that the deck they just bought isn't that good.

[dahcmai]

It pops occasionally, but typically just the initial rush is over. The card typically remains expensive from there on out. Sea Drake is still quite expensive. Cruel Bargain is in the same boat. Aluren is one of the few that dropped back to normal for some reason. Probably due to the fact it's a Tempest Rare and for some reason there's a lot of those out there.

As I said though, 3 kingdoms cards will never ever go down again. I'm actually still annoyed by Strategic Planning since I had been in the middle of trying to get a playset when that bubble started. I wanted to try it in Thresh and after I got two, the price went nuts. Damn.

I wonder why Exploration hasn't followed the price of Mox Diamond and Tabernacle. I find that one odd. The other two are from older sets, but not that much older. Less pet decks using them I guess. Tabletop players do have a marked effect on prices.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I wonder why Exploration hasn't followed the price of Mox Diamond and Tabernacle. I find that one odd. The other two are from older sets, but not that much older. Less pet decks using them I guess. Tabletop players do have a marked effect on prices.

Possibly just that Exploration is almost exclusively used in Lands.deck whereas Mox Diamond is in Aggro Loam, Stax, and Land.deck, and Tabernacle is very hard to find and used in Stax and Lands, but would probably find its way into more decks if it wasn't so expensive. Stax got that big win a couple months ago so the interest in that deck is still pretty high up there. Funny to note that Baneslayer is actually more expensive than most cards in that deck.

As for Loyal Retainers I'm glad I picked a few up at 40$ now, as I can sell the extras to pay for the one I'll keep. I think they're shooting up in value because Bant Survival is actually a good deck, and not hard to put together other than the LR. Imperial Recruiter is arguably better, but also only has a niche in one deck that has a bunch more cards that can't be used in any other deck. Painters grindstone aren't really used in many decks now.

[jazzykat]

IMO there is a bubble bursting somewhere along the horizon. I'm sorry but the economy sucks and even if parents are giving their kids the money to buy $100 uncommons it can't last forever.

Remember Vintage, I'm not saying it's dead but it seems that "no one" plays it any more. I'm willing to bet that the astronomical entry costs even with 10 proxy tournaments made the barrier to entry unappealing to most and contributed to its decline.

Mark my words, Legacy is in a boom period but if the prices continue to rise in a quadratic or esponential manner people will just say the hell with this, I'm going to put a down payment on a house or buy a car with my collection.

If you're speculating have fun but don't look at me when your "$150" loyal retainers that you stockpiled don't find buyers because the deck lost its vogueness.

[majikal]

IMO there is a bubble bursting somewhere along the horizon. I'm sorry but the economy sucks and even if parents are giving their kids the money to buy $100 uncommons it can't last forever.
Why does it automatically have to be kids? :eyebrow:


Remember Vintage, I'm not saying it's dead but it seems that "no one" plays it any more. I'm willing to bet that the astronomical entry costs even with 10 proxy tournaments made the barrier to entry unappealing to most and contributed to its decline.
Vintage is dying down because the format is stagnant, not because it's expensive. A 10-proxy deck is cheaper than the average competitive Legacy deck even.


Mark my words, Legacy is in a boom period but if the prices continue to rise in a quadratic or esponential manner people will just say the hell with this, I'm going to put a down payment on a house or buy a car with my collection.
People do this all the time and it doesn't hurt the game in any significant manner. In fact, if anything it is indicative of a healthy secondary market economy. If the bubble were to truly burst, they wouldn't be able to sell them for enough to put a down-payment on a house.


If you're speculating have fun but don't look at me when your "$150" loyal retainers that you stockpiled don't find buyers because the deck lost its vogueness.
Can't really argue with this, however. This particular case baffles me. It's just not useful in the same way Recruiter or Strategic Planning are. It sees play as a 1-of in a solid, but just short of tier-1 deck, whereas other cards that experienced similar spikes have been used as 4-ofs in at least a couple of decks. I've got a feeling that there is some scalping going on, as they all started quietly disappearing from the market within a day or two.

[Nidd]

Good god, I'm so happy I already bought my Underground Seas and my Tundra.
I'm so sad I still got to buy a Tropical Island.

But hey, at least the prices of these aren't going through the roof.

[Jak]

I just got a Loyal Retainers for $40 from ABUgames and they still have 2 more in stock.

I think prices are rising quite quickly, but it is to be expected when there are huge Legacy tournaments all over the country every few weeks. Decks get popular and people run to buy up the cards quickly. I hope prices don't just keep going up because that is a turn off for people. I really hope Wizards just keeps doing what they are doing and re-printing some older cards in their FTV thing.

[majikal]

I just got a Loyal Retainers for $40 from ABUgames and they still have 2 more in stock.

Did you mean Shuffle and Cut? They're the only place I see that has any left.

[MMogg]

I just got a Loyal Retainers for $40 from ABUgames and they still have 2 more in stock.

I think prices are rising quite quickly, but it is to be expected when there are huge Legacy tournaments all over the country every few weeks. Decks get popular and people run to buy up the cards quickly. I hope prices don't just keep going up because that is a turn off for people. I really hope Wizards just keeps doing what they are doing and re-printing some older cards in their FTV thing.

But that's even not enough. FTV: Exiled pretty much sucked for Legacy. I worry about stuff like dual lands reaching $100 ea. (it'll happen eventually) as a barrier to becoming a Legacy player.

Also, the online sales community is really really small. Short story, I worked in a card shop once and when Yu-Gi-Oh! first came out it was shit hot and no one had it in the neighbourhood . . . except the drugstore next door. So the owner bought everything they had so he could continue to sell his packs at inflated prices. How hard would it be for someone to buy up cards from competitors, and then flip them when you've got the only supply?

Internet supply compared to internet demand is pretty low.

[Jak]

Did you mean Shuffle and Cut? They're the only place I see that has any left.

Oh shit! I guess they just sold out. I ordered when there was 3.


But that's even not enough. FTV: Exiled pretty much sucked for Legacy. I worry about stuff like dual lands reaching $100 ea. (it'll happen eventually) as a barrier to becoming a Legacy player.

Also, the online sales community is really really small. Short story, I worked in a card shop once and when Yu-Gi-Oh! first came out it was shit hot and no one had it in the neighbourhood . . . except the drugstore next door. So the owner bought everything they had so he could continue to sell his packs at inflated prices. How hard would it be for someone to buy up cards from competitors, and then flip them when you've got the only supply?

Internet supply compared to internet demand is pretty low.

I totally agree. This is the problem I see. Cards from Portal or older sets just aren't in the local store. Having to rely online to get them where prices are inflated just isn't worth it most of the time. I really hope something gets done so Legacy, the fastest growing format, doesn't die because of it. I mentioned the FTV things because they were a step in the right direction.

[MMogg]

Oh shit! I guess they just sold out. I ordered when there was 3.



I totally agree. This is the problem I see. Cards from Portal or older sets just aren't in the local store. Having to rely online to get them where prices are inflated just isn't worth it most of the time. I really hope something gets done so Legacy, the fastest growing format, doesn't die because of it. I mentioned the FTV things because they were a step in the right direction.

I guess the elephant in the room – as always – is the reserve list.

[majikal]

I guess the elephant in the room – as always – is the reserve list.
Even some things not on the reserve list, IMO. Portal 3 Kingdoms cards are a perfect example of this. Many of them have reached triple-digit pricetags due to their scarcity, making them a highly-sought rarity among collectors. Dare WotC reprint them and risk alienating those who have shelled out top dollar for them?

I think that, fortunately, nothing from the starter-level sets really jumps out as being a staple in Legacy, so it's fine if they're expensive, but god help us all if something from one of those sets becomes as powerful as, say, Tarmogoyf.

[Jak]

I guess the elephant in the room – as always – is the reserve list.

I would much rather them alienate a few players than a lot more players. The prices will come down, but the cards will still be of worth and I highly doubt these aggravated people will quit the game if the reserve list was thrown in the trash.

[Meister_Kai]

Dare WotC reprint them and risk alienating those who have shelled out top dollar for them?

And how many people do you think that would be? I like to think that the grand majority (at least 85% if you want a number out of the ass) don't "collect" this game on a level where shelling out thousands of dollars to get a playset of everything Portal or whatever would be viable monetarily wise. I know it would be annoying to those who did spend a ridiculous amount of money on cardboard, but by the sound of it the people who DO spend that kind of money on The Source (check the pimp legacy deck thread) are pretty well off anyway. A "hit" of 1 grand or more doesn't seem to affect you munch when you have a "monthly magic budget" of $250.

I think Wizards should be able to reprint anything and everything. Even P9 (the only other alternative is to make proxies 100% tournament legal, not just this "proxy stuff").

I am convinced that this format will die if something isn't done about this "bubble" stuff within the next year or two. What meaning doesn the phrase "play with all your old favorites" hold if all your old favorites are pushing $80 a playset?

[majikal]

I would much rather them alienate a few players than a lot more players. The prices will come down, but the cards will still be of worth and I highly doubt these aggravated people will quit the game if the reserve list was thrown in the trash.
Agreed 100%, however they would have to be incredibly careful in how they implement such a move in order not to tank the secondary market too quickly. A very large part of Eternal magic is collecting, and if they just suddenly dumped millions of copies of previously hard-to-find (well, useful and hard-to-find) cards into the market it could cause a huge backlash.

I think the way to go for the time being is limited release products like duel decks, FtV, and Judge promos rather than flat-out reprinting anything like Imperial Seal or even Imperial Recruiter in a base or expert set.



I am convinced that this format will die if something isn't done about this "bubble" stuff within the next year or two. What meaning doesn the phrase "play with all your old favorites" hold if all your old favorites are pushing $80 a playset?
$80 a playset is nothing. Standard-legal cards reach $80 a playset. What do you expect for cards that are out of print and therefore more scarce? Just be glad none of the super-rare, super-expensive are format-defining or even the least bit warping. If everything were available to everybody, it wouldn't be a collectible game anymore.

The only cards that I can really agree that absolutely NEED to be reprinted sometime soon are the original Dual Lands. They are the linchpin of the format, and if they're not readily available, there is no format. Everything else is either sufficiently abundant or not really necessary to compete.

[Jak]

Agreed 100%, however they would have to be incredibly careful in how they implement such a move in order not to tank the secondary market too quickly. A very large part of Eternal magic is collecting, and if they just suddenly dumped millions of copies of previously hard-to-find (well, useful and hard-to-find) cards into the market it could cause a huge backlash.

I think the way to go for the time being is limited release products like duel decks, FtV, and Judge promos rather than flat-out reprinting anything like Imperial Seal or even Imperial Recruiter in a base or expert set.

Exactly. Slowly reprinting the cards is what should happen. I do think some cards like Imperial Recruiter would be fine to be reprinted in a new set though. Most should be in the FTV series.

[dahcmai]

Heh, imagine if they decided to give away duals in the Player Rewards? lol Talk about the largest influx of people into FNM's ever.

I am really starting to hate that reserved list despite the fact I'm one of those people with playsets of the older cards. I'd rather see cards like that reprinted because I'm really tired of hearing about how expensive those cards are (duals and other Legacy staples) and people should be allowed to play in a format they like and not be limited by cash. If you want that, go play Yuh Gi Oh, I hear that game is dependent on money to do well.

They least they should do is reprint the ungodly hard to get a hold of uncommons like Sea Drake, Imperial Recruiter, Strategic Planning, Grim Tutor (ok, its a rare), and the rest of those that aren't even on the reserve list anyway.

[ryO!]

Heh, imagine if they decided to give away duals in the Player Rewards? lol Talk about the largest influx of people into FNM's ever.

I am really starting to hate that reserved list despite the fact I'm one of those people with playsets of the older cards. I'd rather see cards like that reprinted because I'm really tired of hearing about how expensive those cards are (duals and other Legacy staples) and people should be allowed to play in a format they like and not be limited by cash. If you want that, go play Yuh Gi Oh, I hear that game is dependent on money to do well.

They least they should do is reprint the ungodly hard to get a hold of uncommons like Sea Drake, Imperial Recruiter, Strategic Planning, Grim Tutor (ok, its a rare), and the rest of those that aren't even on the reserve list anyway.

they should not reprint such cards ever...
it s a collectible game and those are rarities, that aren't that outstanding, so there is no need to reprint them at all ... And if people wanna buy them for triple digits, well let them do, none of those decks are broken, they are just fancy cards for fancy deck.
the only cards that can kill legacy if their price double/triple faster than the normal are fow, duals and some other legacy long time staples. And last time i ve checked anyway, legacy has always been an expensive format.
And as it s been said already, "street prices" are much cheaper than inet prices so just look around. Also indeed some cards tend to disappear, and pop back 2 or 3 days after, with one more digit, but that's always been the case for those 'newstaplecomers' especially right before a GP.

[Wargoos]

I bought a korean SaT for 3€ an got it on Sunday the 01/02/10. ;)
I've also bought Retainers for 16€.
Hail me.

Ass, it was you who outbid me.
LOL! Retainers are 250€ / SINGLE at magickartenmarkt.de
Fuck weird people. I'm selling my Recruiters for a grand each now.

[Brushwagg]

Exactly. Slowly reprinting the cards is what should happen

Well they did this kind of. Duals came back as Shock lands, and it took how many years to get enemy fetchlands? But they were only printed because the original ones were leaving extended.

[conboy31]

Ass, it was you who outbid me.
LOL! Retainers are 250€ / SINGLE at magickartenmarkt.de
Fuck weird people. I'm selling my Recruiters for a grand each now.

That is amazing. They can still be had for 50 US dollars on some websites.

[MMogg]

Agreed 100%, however they would have to be incredibly careful in how they implement such a move in order not to tank the secondary market too quickly. A very large part of Eternal magic is collecting, and if they just suddenly dumped millions of copies of previously hard-to-find (well, useful and hard-to-find) cards into the market it could cause a huge backlash.

I think the way to go for the time being is limited release products like duel decks, FtV, and Judge promos rather than flat-out reprinting anything like Imperial Seal or even Imperial Recruiter in a base or expert set.

I think Tarmogoyf smashes any idea that cards will necessarily devalue because of printing. He's not old, he's not scarce, he's not hard to find and he's $40 (give or take). Very very few Legacy competitive old cards would lose a lot of value from being reprinted (looking at you Tabernacle). As you said yourself, Standard playsets are upwards of $80, so what makes you think if they reprinted old cards – thus making them Standard and Extended legal – the cards would plunge in value?

They don't need to print them slowly, they need to print a set like Timeshifted shiznit, but not a bunch of jank.

[UberNewHacks]

Well I bet Legacy is getting popular since it's been all over Star City Games. Maybe that comes with the huge increase in popularity? I hope they do reprint cards though because then Legacy would be even more accessible.

[Nidd]

I really hope that after FtV: Relics they do FtV: Lands and reprint some cards like the old Duals, Wasteland, and 4 other useful lands.

[majikal]

As you said yourself, Standard playsets are upwards of $80, so what makes you think if they reprinted old cards – thus making them Standard and Extended legal – the cards would plunge in value?

Because if old cards that are expensive due to scarcity are reprinted, they will no longer be scarce. Just look at the price of Berserk after FTV: Exiled.

[majikal]

As you said yourself, Standard playsets are upwards of $80, so what makes you think if they reprinted old cards – thus making them Standard and Extended legal – the cards would plunge in value?

Because if old cards that are expensive due to scarcity are reprinted, they will no longer be scarce. Just look at the price of Berserk after FTV: Exiled. It's just a simple fact of supply and demand.

For the record, however, I don't personally care one way or the other. But I'm sure there are a good deal of collectors who would go absolutely apeshit if Tabernacle or some other ridiculously priced card like Imperial Seal were reprinted.

[MMogg]

Because if old cards that are expensive due to scarcity are reprinted, they will no longer be scarce. Just look at the price of Berserk after FTV: Exiled. It's just a simple fact of supply and demand.

For the record, however, I don't personally care one way or the other. But I'm sure there are a good deal of collectors who would go absolutely apeshit if Tabernacle or some other ridiculously priced card like Imperial Seal were reprinted.

Berserk is barely prevalent/playable. I know that's just one example you're using, but I just think there are very few cards that would have any great impact. I think most of the cards that are jumping and are Legacy defining (Natural Order, Wasteland, dual lands, Lion's Eye Diamond, Mox Diamond, Force of Will, etc.) are not exactly scarce. They are cheaper than Tarmogoyf and Baneslayer Angel and have lower price tags than those newer cards, so what is the risk of printing those old "staples"? If they reprint them before they get to $50 they have less chance of alienating these hypothetical collectors.

[Nidd]

Well, I doubt they will reprint Wasteland in a set. Textless would be a possibility, so would FtV.
But seriously, they won't reprint Wasteland. LD, accessible by every deck? No way in the current standard.

[android]

What I personally would love to see would be Chronicles II with all good cards this time around. They should print it in such limited amounts that retailers should only receive say one box at the bottom level on up from there to a max of say 3 boxes for Gold stores? It would be such a limited run that people would have to have dibs on like 1 pack to avoid hording. They could include 4 rarity tiers with foils of each. I'm not really sure about cards like duels or power (maybe inserted like the treasure cards?), but they could include all the classics and cards that see competitive play in eternal formats or in nostalgic winning decks from days gone by. I hate that all these supposedly super limited release sets have a static number of cards and there is no mystery when opening them. Part of collecting and part of Magic is to gamble on the pack you purchase. I'm pretty sure if Wizards did it right, this set would be a hit in both the primary and secondary market. They would have to keep the print run to like say 5,000-10,000 boxes? Does that sound right?

[kicks_422]

10,000 boxes? For the whole world? That would make the cards in them even more expensive.

[conboy31]

What do people anticipate some legacy cards will settle at regarding the recent risers?

Loyal Retainers
Tabernacle at P Vale
Show and Tell
Dream Halls
etc

[majikal]

What do people anticipate some legacy cards will settle at regarding the recent risers?

Loyal Retainers - No idea, sky's the limit for P3K cards.

Tabernacle at P Vale - I think this is about as expensive as it will get, but probably won't be going back down anytime soon.

Dream Halls/Show and Tell - Both of these will probably settle around 12-15.

[MMogg]

What do people anticipate some legacy cards will settle at regarding the recent risers?

Loyal Retainers
Tabernacle at P Vale
Show and Tell
Dream Halls
etc

I think Dream Halls and Show and Tell will likely be less than Natural Order. The deck is more fragile and requires a whole deck built around it as opposed to the NO+Prog "combo", which only requires those five cards and can be shoehorned into a number of "shells". Even relatively creatureless decks can use Dryad Arbor and fetchlands to facilitate it. I think NO+Prog has already proven itself to be tier 1 or at least 1.75 :wink:, whereas Dream Halls.dec won a bit but not consistently and we will have to see how it does now that everyone will know what it is and how to play against it.

I don't want to speculate on the others because I would be talking out of my anus.

[wmagzoo7]

Basically what Majikal said should hold true. I doubt that Show and Tell/ Dream Halls will go up much more and possibly could drop because the deck isn't gaining too much steam at this point. I think that Tabernacle may go up a bit more beyond what it has reached for a brief period but will possibly drop down a bit from that point and reach a plateau. MMogg I really don't think that Show and Tell/ Dream Halls can end up more than Natural Order because of how widely Natural Order is played compared to Show and Tell.

[MMogg]

I think Dream Halls and Show and Tell will likely be less than Natural Order.


MMogg I really don't think that Show and Tell/ Dream Halls can end up more than Natural Order because of how widely Natural Order is played compared to Show and Tell.

Neither do I. As I said, and explained fully already. :wink:

[Fatestitcher]

Maybe. But Natural Order has been printed twice, while Show and Tell/ Dream Halls were printed only once and they are pretty scarce even back then. Also both of these blue cards can be broken in Vintage format.

[wmagzoo7]

Reading is tech haha. As a mainly Vintage player I don't think that people will play Show and Tell with Dream Halls as there are better things to do there and the metagame for the most part is more defined. The reason that Dream Halls has seen success is that the format is generally of lower power level than Vintage which opens the door to more new strategies. Dream Halls combo is one of these strategies that will likely not go on to Vintage especially when Time Vault Voltaic Key is in the format. I might be wrong, but I doubt that Dream Halls will see much if any play in Vintage.

[MattH]

But I'm sure there are a good deal of collectors who would go absolutely apeshit if Tabernacle or some other ridiculously priced card like Imperial Seal were reprinted.

I gotta ask...so what? Honestly, let them eat cock.

[Ozymandias]

I think that prices are going to stay high even when people realize that retainers is maybe not the new Dark Depths.

It's the Rishadan Port principle-a card that sees corner case play in maybe one deck but people are unwilling to value them at their actual utility.

That said, speculation really is its own antidote because without people being able to try decks cheaply, the growth of demand for the cards is dramatically stunted.

[godryk]

I gotta ask...so what? Honestly, let them eat cock.

Hmmmm. I, and eveyone I know playing Legacy, are willing to pay the price of duals and stuff under the dogma that these cards will never lost monetary value and can be re-sold. Seriously, do you own a Tabernacle or an Imperial Seal? If you do, then I'll respect you infinitely for saying such a thing.

But if I knew that tomorrow Wizards would be printing dollars in the form of M2011 Underground Seas I would quit playing this format.

[hjalte]

Hmmmm. I, and eveyone I know playing Legacy, are willing to pay the price of duals and stuff under the dogma that these cards will never lost monetary value and can be re-sold. Seriously, do you own a Tabernacle or an Imperial Seal? If you do, then I'll respect you infinitely for saying such a thing.

But if I knew that tomorrow Wizards would be printing dollars in the form of M2011 Underground Seas I would quit playing this format.

Baneslayer angel can still be "bought" in boosters, but that doesn't seem to keep the price down. Hell it's more expensive than most duals, so why do you think, that reprinting duals would lower their value? They would certainly not be played in less decks.

If wizards were to reprint tabernacle, I don't think it would lower the price of the original much. Maybe by $50-100, but isn't that as bad as if you sold off a moat 1 year ago? You would have "lost" around $50.
The old originals will still be worth quite a lot, mainly because they are originals (and quite rare), and that Magic is a collectible card game.

[ryO!]

Hmmmm. I, and eveyone I know playing Legacy, are willing to pay the price of duals and stuff under the dogma that these cards will never lost monetary value and can be re-sold. Seriously, do you own a Tabernacle or an Imperial Seal? If you do, then I'll respect you infinitely for saying such a thing.

But if I knew that tomorrow Wizards would be printing dollars in the form of M2011 Underground Seas I would quit playing this format.

word, one thing people seems to miss is that buying cards isnt a dead investment ... as they will always worth more by the time goes by .... and yes then again wizzard should NEVER reprint such staples even using the FTV crap. And people also seems to forget that Type 2 remain the most expensive format, as you always have to buy and rebuy new cards, in legacy u just have to buy them once and contrary to type 2 when u ll feel like reselling them, the price will be at worse the same, contrary to type 2 where cards lose like 50% if not more.

[thulnanth]

I gotta ask...so what? Honestly, let them eat cock.

Wow... that is exactly the attitude that makes me so upset when people talk about reprinting cards for purely financial reasons.

I assume you must feel entitled to have access to every card WotC ever made, and that's fine - everyone wants stuff. That being said, you do have to realize that there are those of us who have worked very hard to earn the money to buy the expensive cards out there that we own. I'm not saying I deserve a prize or anything - it was my choice to give up the fruits of my labor to buy cardboard. In addition, I know there is no guarantee that my cards will retain their value - they could tank tomorrow, and I'd be out my money. That's just life.

However, when people come along and say essentially "screw you and your hard work, I want those cards too, for cheap" it does irritate me. I think WotC does a good job contolling the release of cards to both maximize their profits (they are a business) and keep the game enjoyable for the most players possible. If at some point it became obvious that reprinting certain cards was necessary to keep the game going (not sure if we're there or not, that's another debate), I'd be fine with that decision. But please understand that when you make comments like yours you are treating my time and effort as being worthless, and that's not fair.

I'm not trying to single you out, as you most likely are a fine person (you do play Magic, after all :wink: ); rather it is that attitude that seems so prevalent in our society today that really bothers me.

Sigh... I must be getting old.

Take it easy,
Jared

[Koby]

The collector argument boils down to this:

You're a collector, you bought/traded/acquired cards for the sake of having a collection. Suddenly a card is reprinted. How does this diminish your collection? NOT ONE BIT. The true collector worries not about monetary value, because they are not collecting to sell. They are collecting to collect. I fail to see (logically anyway) how reprinting a card with that crappy new frame would diminish the sentimental value of the older card.

It is the speculators/dealers that are not going to be happy to see reprints ruin the value of their inventory; and that will be more than made up with more business from new inventory. This is also a risk of the market, and is totally within the bounds of the financial risk in investing in fluctuating markets.

[Nidd]

I'm fine with high prices. It's ok, really. But what bothers me is, that the pillars of the format (Duals) aren't available to everyone. their number is too limited.

[majikal]

I'm fine with high prices. It's ok, really. But what bothers me is, that the pillars of the format (Duals) aren't available to everyone. their number is too limited.
This. Really, if it has been in any core set outside of ABU, it should be allowed to be reprinted, because these cards were at one point considered the core of the game outside of the initial launch.

[Julian23]

The collector argument boils down to this:

You're a collector, you bought/traded/acquired cards for the sake of having a collection. Suddenly a card is reprinted. How does this diminish your collection? NOT ONE BIT. The true collector worries not about monetary value, because they are not collecting to sell. They are collecting to collect. I fail to see (logically anyway) how reprinting a card with that crappy new frame would diminish the sentimental value of the older card.

This! THIS! THIS THIS THIS!

That's exactly what I was going to write, glad a lot of people look at this the same way. The same is true for all that "If they reprint USea I'm gonna quit!"-talk. People would QUIT the game if some of their cards would drop in value? What does that accomplish? People try to kind of blackmail Wizards to not reprint certain cards by threating to quit the game...but who cares? It's so ridiculous to quit the game because you're cards are now worth less. So why are you playing this game after all? Even if my cards would suddenly only be worth nothing anymore I'd continue playing Magic because I take joy in it! I guess people who threaten quitting the game are the same people who feel bad once their oh-so-exclusive mobile phone suddenly drops in price and everyone can afford it. I'm not talking dealers . I can totally see why dealers would move away from Magic if Wizards reprinted some goodies. But that's not the point...

Oh and by the way, although I sold a lot I still own enough stuff that might drop some of it's value if it got reprinted. Or would it?! It's clear that stuff like duals would be Mythic Rares. Look at Baneslayer, he's worth 40+ Euros. Even the most expensive dual isn't worth 40 Euros. If reprinting Duals would actually make them drop im price it would be to a much lesser degree than people think.

[stacker]

This argument reminds me of Tom Lapille's recent article about blue in standard.

Basically a bunch of people posted in the article thread about what they want and not what's good for the game.

[majikal]

This! THIS! THIS THIS THIS!

That's exactly what I was going to write, glad a lot of people look at this the same way. The same is true for all that "If they reprint USea I'm gonna quit!"-talk. People would QUIT the game if some of their cards would drop in value? What does that accomplish? People try to kind of blackmail Wizards to not reprint certain cards by threating to quit the game...but who cares? It's so ridiculous to quit the game because you're cards are now worth less. So why are you playing this game after all? Even if my cards would suddenly only be worth nothing anymore I'd continue playing Magic because I take joy in it! I guess people who threaten quitting the game are the same people who feel bad once their oh-so-exclusive mobile phone suddenly drops in price and everyone can afford it. I'm not talking dealers . I can totally see why dealers would move away from Magic if Wizards reprinted some goodies. But that's not the point...

Oh and by the way, although I sold a lot I still own enough stuff that might drop some of it's value if it got reprinted. Or would it?! It's clear that stuff like duals would be Mythic Rares. Look at Baneslayer, he's worth 40+ Euros. Even the most expensive dual isn't worth 40 Euros. If reprinting Duals would actually make them drop im price it would be to a much lesser degree than people think.
I agree with this to an extent. HOWEVER, I strongly feel that things that are highly expensive based solely on their scarcity (P3K, Legends, Arabian Nights, ABU, etc) should be left alone. Dual lands are not expensive based on scarcity for the most part. There is a LOT of Revised out there. Unfortunately, there are more decks that need dual lands than can be accommodated.

[MMogg]

Wow... that is exactly the attitude that makes me so upset when people talk about reprinting cards for purely financial reasons.

I assume you must feel entitled to have access to every card WotC ever made, and that's fine - everyone wants stuff. That being said, you do have to realize that there are those of us who have worked very hard to earn the money to buy the expensive cards out there that we own. I'm not saying I deserve a prize or anything - it was my choice to give up the fruits of my labor to buy cardboard. In addition, I know there is no guarantee that my cards will retain their value - they could tank tomorrow, and I'd be out my money. That's just life.

However, when people come along and say essentially "screw you and your hard work, I want those cards too, for cheap" it does irritate me. I think WotC does a good job contolling the release of cards to both maximize their profits (they are a business) and keep the game enjoyable for the most players possible. If at some point it became obvious that reprinting certain cards was necessary to keep the game going (not sure if we're there or not, that's another debate), I'd be fine with that decision. But please understand that when you make comments like yours you are treating my time and effort as being worthless, and that's not fair.

I'm not trying to single you out, as you most likely are a fine person (you do play Magic, after all :wink: ); rather it is that attitude that seems so prevalent in our society today that really bothers me.

Sigh... I must be getting old.

Take it easy,
Jared

But, to look at it from another angle, the value of cards is hinged on the game, not collectiblity per se. Why is Baneslayer Angel at present worth more than any other M10 mythic rare? Why are the Masticores I bought at $15 a piece years ago now only $5 or less and dual lands are steadily rising? Players drive prices more than collectors, and I think that was the point Matt was trying to make (not that I can speak for him, but I kind of share this view). I think "let them eat cock" was a harsh way of putting that availability and health of the game is more important than maintaining card values for a few people. That, of course, implies that card values would necessarily plunge, which isn't always the case.

Even old staples we expect to maintain value – I'm looking at you Mana Drain – have felt the effects of tournament play. At the end of the day, we are all speculators, and we all gain some and lose some. Saying "I work hard for my cards and therefore none should be reprinted" is just as glib as "let them eat cock." The health of the game (including card availability and format affordability) are essential for a healthy secondary market.

[citanul]

The only reason that I see for reprinting is to make the format available to everybody and I see no harm in that. More players means the format will evolve more and more + bigger tournaments!

I myself though have collected a playset of every dual, fetch and expensive playable rare (except Moat etc which you barely play as a 4-off). I spend time searching for these at reasonable prices/trades. Spent time playing tournaments to win them or paid cash to acquire them. I can understand that people who have gone through similar effort are against the reprinting.

It's much like real life though. You buy a new pc, something new comes out a while later and your pc decreases in value. Only here, the pc you bought is the best of the best and will never be made again so you'll have to do with the ones that are available. Pc's are known to malfunction, people who have one don't sell etc so the availability decreases and the price increases.
But is the availability really so low? And even if you can't buy them for yourself, is there no one you could borrow them from?

I share my collection with my team and even other people that ask me if they can borrow cards. I don't think the time for reprints has arrived yet but feel that eventually it will become a necesarry evil.

[Nidd]

Another point I would like to add: Do you really think that Duals are that costly because they are so rare? or are they that expensive because nearly every deck needs them?
If you think you have the answer, look at Tarmogoyf. Or BSA. They aren't expensive because they are that rare, there are enough of them. They are expensive because they are powerful.

[godryk]

Hmmmm. I, and eveyone I know playing Legacy, are willing to pay the price of duals and stuff under the dogma that these cards will never lost monetary value and can be re-sold. Seriously, do you own a Tabernacle or an Imperial Seal? If you do, then I'll respect you infinitely for saying such a thing.

But if I knew that tomorrow Wizards would be printing dollars in the form of M2011 Underground Seas I would quit playing this format.

Even old staples we expect to maintain value – I'm looking at you Mana Drain – have felt the effects of tournament play. At the end of the day, we are all speculators, and we all gain some and lose some. Saying "I work hard for my cards and therefore none should be reprinted" is just as glib as "let them eat cock." The health of the game (including card availability and format affordability) are essential for a healthy secondary market.

I'd like to clarify my earlier comments as I may sound too radical due to linguistic limitations. It's a fact that the format is seeing more and more play this year due to 2 GPs and all the SCG $5k thing, I think that more and bigger tournaments imply a healthier format. But this also makes Legacy staples more demanded what means prices raising (with a little help speculators). I understand that this process may end up with Legacy being so expensive that exclude new players. I have to agree that some form of reediting some staples has to be found, so that Legacy doesn't die as Vintage is pretty much doing.

I just wanted to raise a very common thought of most of legacy players I know and that has to be considered and respected. That hypothetical reprint of Legacy staples should be carefuly studied.

[Raptor]

Another point I would like to add: Do you really think that Duals are that costly because they are so rare? or are they that expensive because nearly every deck needs them?
If you think you have the answer, look at Tarmogoyf. Or BSA. They aren't expensive because they are that rare, there are enough of them. They are expensive because they are powerful.

Tarmogoyf might be cosidered rare if we look at the fact that a LOT of people a conserving their playset and don't want to trade them, even if they have more than four. Therefor, there is not enough supply for the demand and creates rarity.

[ramanujan]

Good Morning,

For what it is worth, here are my thoughts. As a long time magic player and supporter of the game, I have been blessed with a pretty reasonable collection of staples. I will not quit the game if we see reprints of duals or other sought after staples of the format but I will be dissipointed.

Wizards has created several formats that get far more press and tournaments than legacy which contain only cards that are currently available in booster packs. Legacy is a format that allows almost every card ever printed and in general; to own a great legacy deck, you should buy in to the format (literally). If you want a format whose best cards are currently available in packs, perhaps legacy is not for you. That is part of the appeal of the format. I just puchased a tabernacle for over 2 hundred because I will appreciate it and play it. I saved for a while to get that card and I will enjoy it more for that.

If legacy matters to you and you really want to play it competitively, spend your money acquiring legacy staples rather than buying baneslayers for 60 bucks. It has been said more times than I want to count but legacy is less expensive over the long haul than standard. Instead of saying that WOTC should pave the road for you by reprinting expensive staples of an old format, save and trade your way into a deck you can truely be proud of.

-Peace

[Nidd]

I see you don't adress the point of card availability.

What do you think is the logical evolution of the Legacy scene expanding, if WotC decides to not to reprint old staples like the Duals?
The format stagnates because it can't expand anymore. There won't be enough Duals for all people.

I have a vision of Dragon Stompy and Merfolk being the most-played decks in the format...*shudders*

[ramanujan]

Availability,

It is not that there may be no duals available it is that they will cost more. It is true that as more people become interested in the format for various reasons that cards that have a defined print run will increase in value markedly if they are used in a legacy deck. What is also true is that almost everyone has his/her price.

There will always be duals on the open market because some fraction of the owners value the money they can get from a dual more than the dual itself. When underground sea reaches 120.00 US there will be people that will sell off thier underground seas because 480.00 is worth more to them then having a playset. Conversely, there will be people that would like them enough to pay that much for them.

The point I am making is that there will always be staples available at places like ebay and that if you want a card and are willing to pay marketvalue, then you will have little trouble making a legacy deck. Make no mistake, legacy staples will always be available for new players, but thier price may not be easy to swallow.

-Peace

[MattH]

Hmmmm. I, and eveyone I know playing Legacy, are willing to pay the price of duals and stuff under the dogma that these cards will never lost monetary value and can be re-sold. Seriously, do you own a Tabernacle or an Imperial Seal? If you do, then I'll respect you infinitely for saying such a thing.

I own 16 blue duals, 10 other duals, 12 FoW, 4 LED, 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, 1 Sea Drake, 3 Tarmogoyf (I know, I know, wtf), plenty of fetches, and playsets of other non-cheap cards like Survival, Mox Diamond, Jitte, Natural Order, and Wasteland. I bought a Loyal Retainers recently, too.

And I would rejoice if these cards were reprinted, because I didn't buy these cards as an investment, I bought them to play with. In that light, a reprinting that crashes prices makes my cards MORE valuable to me, because if the format grows, I get to use them more often!

I'm only able to play this format seriously because I managed to buy those cards cheaply, so I know from personal experience that the price of the format is a serious barrier to entry. Why should I deny to others the opportunity that I had, to buy these cards cheaply? If speculators get burned, well that's the fucking risk of speculating now isn't it.


But if I knew that tomorrow Wizards would be printing dollars in the form of M2011 Underground Seas I would quit playing this format.
This is so dumb. Why would you quit playing? Your cards don't suddenly not work just because there's new versions around. It's not suddenly any less awesome to fight through a counterwall, or to bash with dudes, or to bait out a Force, or to break new tech, or to salivate while flipping through your deck finding the perfect thing to get with Survival. This stuff is awesome regardless of how much I paid to do it. Do you really dislike Magic so much?



However, when people come along and say essentially "screw you and your hard work, I want those cards too, for cheap" it does irritate me.
As above, I have pretty much everything I need to play any deck. True, I don't own a Tabernacle, but as I have no desire whatsoever to play any deck with that card it doesn't matter much to me. I have plenty of money put into cards specifically for this format to make the statements I do. This is a conversation between Haves about the Have-Nots - some Haves want to pull the ladder up behind them, and some (myself included) think that's a bad idea.

If there is a prevailing attitude today that is bothersome, it's "I got mine, fuck you."

[jazzykat]

While I am much more heavily invested than Matt, (60 duals, etc. etc.)I wouldn't mind a card reprinted if a deck or strategy that called for 4 of a card that was say over $100 or $150 was dominating the format.

I.e. if Imperial Painter was taking first in every tournament then I would say do we need to ban a piece of imperial painter or reprint recruiter so everyone could play it?

I also feel that speculators should severely be punished every once in a while by reprinting something that disappeared from stock all over, all of a sudden i.e. Loyal Retainer (probably reprinted as a Mythic).

This would serve 2 purposes:

1. Make wizards more money by selling packs i.e. whatever stupid boxed set they come up with.

2. Curtail the artificial inflation of prices by a few individuals. Things like dual lands are apparently too hard to do otherwise I am sure we would be seeing $500 Revised Underground Seas

[paK0]

I see you don't adress the point of card availability.

What do you think is the logical evolution of the Legacy scene expanding, if WotC decides to not to reprint old staples like the Duals?
The format stagnates because it can't expand anymore. There won't be enough Duals for all people.

I have a vision of Dragon Stompy and Merfolk being the most-played decks in the format...*shudders*


That's already showing, Merfolk, Storm and LED-less Dredge make way more appearances then they should if you go after Top 8-finishes. Decks like Aggro Loam and Lands had much better results yet they don't show as often.

At some point Wizards will have to make the decision to reprint Legacy stables or let the Format die. Luckily we are not there yet, Legacy keeps growing, but with limited acces to Stables this will not last forever.





because I didn't buy these cards as an investment, I bought them to play with.

QFT


Most cards on the secondary market are bought by people who want to play with them. Sure, my Duals might loose a little value (even with reprints I highly doubt that) but many more players would have the opportunity to play Legacy, so thats a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

[godryk]

I own 16 blue duals, 10 other duals, 12 FoW, 4 LED, 4 Phyrexian Dreadnought, 1 Sea Drake, 3 Tarmogoyf (I know, I know, wtf), plenty of fetches, and playsets of other non-cheap cards like Survival, Mox Diamond, Jitte, Natural Order, and Wasteland. I bought a Loyal Retainers recently, too.

And I would rejoice if these cards were reprinted, because I didn't buy these cards as an investment, I bought them to play with. In that light, a reprinting that crashes prices makes my cards MORE valuable to me, because if the format grows, I get to use them more often!

I'm only able to play this format seriously because I managed to buy those cards cheaply, so I know from personal experience that the price of the format is a serious barrier to entry. Why should I deny to others the opportunity that I had, to buy these cards cheaply? If speculators get burned, well that's the fucking risk of speculating now isn't it.

This is so dumb. Why would you quit playing? Your cards don't suddenly not work just because there's new versions around. It's not suddenly any less awesome to fight through a counterwall, or to bash with dudes, or to bait out a Force, or to break new tech, or to salivate while flipping through your deck finding the perfect thing to get with Survival. This stuff is awesome regardless of how much I paid to do it. Do you really dislike Magic so much?"

I'll eat my words as I think I misunderstood you, maybe because that "eat your cock" thing (in my defense I will say that I wrote that half asleep). I've never considered MTG as an investment, but we all like the financial value in playing Legacy, as cards usually keep their value. But after thinking a bit more about it I came to the conclussion that reprinting things like duals (as mythic rares maybe) wouldn't be as harmful as I previosly thought and wouldn't low the value of the original ones so much, at least for non speculative purpose. So I must admit that this thread is changing some of my previous predjuces about this topic.

[jazzykat]

I like the treasure idea too so that even though you don't print new ones they are redistributed to people that are much more apt to play with them.

[ryO!]

I like the treasure idea too so that even though you don't print new ones they are redistributed to people that are much more apt to play with them.
that's the best way indeed, let's just hope blizzard have tons of old stocks.
Anyway i am not that sure a reprint would drasticaly reduce the duals lands/Fow/MD/LED prices as the only way to reprint them is in a FTV box (u don't wanna see them in T2/Extended right?), so they ll be foil, and as most of MTG player are completely tasteless (understand it like this "OH SHINY(ugly but yet indeed subjective) CARD ME LIKE ME PAY 3/4/5/6/x TIME THE PRICE I DONT CARE" but in the meantime they complain about P3K cards prices), they ll rush to get those foil duals/fow/whatever, so don't expect the new price to be lower than the current one at all.
P3K, Arabian, Legend, antiquities, or anyother Non-foil edition, should never be reprinted as u want your format to evolve, not to be stucked in old metas.

[dahcmai]

I guess this call all be translated to "what if the Black Lotus and moxen were let back into Legacy?" Not that this would happen, but hypothetically if it did, what would you think of having to buy $1000 sets of cards (because you know the price would skyrocket instantly) just to keep up? Yeah, that would suck.

Eventually, it may come to that point with some of these cards. Especially Three Kingdoms as they are the least printed from what I knew. Can you imagine having to dish out $8000 for a card that makes it quite hard to compete without? Think about an amazing deck coming out that uses some rare from that set? Ouch! You know it would be bad if the uncommons are nuts just in fringe decks.

What some people fail to remember is there are still collectors out there that do not play at all. Eventually, there will come to be a shortage when people realize that sitting on some of these cards is an investment and a large one. I have more than a set of the 80 duals for a reason. They do not go down in price, ever.

Also, sheer luck plays into it some. What about the multitude of cards that are lost or accidentally destroyed making the supply even less as time goes by.

These cards will eventually be horrendously expensive and make Legacy be a format of the rich only. Vintage is already pretty rough to get into with the power. Legacy is headed that direction with the Duals. At least for us, you can partially make do with Ravnica duals.


I just hope they decide that this is the fate of these formats they care little about and decide to cut us some slack by making some FTV sets with the much requested cards.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I'm for the intelligent reprinting of Dual Lands. If it was done well in a mythic rare (incredibly hard to get, even if you buy a box of cards) or as a Judge Promo, where it is again extremely hard to get but still increases the quantity by quite a few, I would be extremely happy.

I don't think this would make the old duals drop in price, just look at the analogy of Final Fantasy 7 (One of if not the the best game ever made). On ebay you can see the discs for the game going for over 60$, but if you own a PS3 you can buy and download the game for 10$, in the comfort of your own home. You would think that it would drop the price of the discs some, but they have stayed at over 60$ from before the release of it on PS3 to now. It's a collectible, just like the old duals are. Hopefully they would drop the price 10$ from where it is now since that's where it was a year ago, but either way is fine.

Even the old Fetchlands aren't dropping almost at all in value after Zendikar is I believe the most successful and widely printed set ever. That may not be a good analogy because the new fetchlands are not exact copies of the old ones, but they serve almost the same purpose and you can easily make a Legacy deck with just new fetches.

[xTrainx]

Now I'm not entirely sure if what I'm abou to say is correct but...

I don't have staples. Hell, the most I've got is like, 3 Pithing Needles and a ADN deck that is missing LED and Tutor.

So if you asked me - fuck yes, reprint all them good staples.
So yeah this might seem like another Have-not whine, but think about it.
Did STD go down in price when FtV got printed?
How 'bout Chrome Mox as the GP promo last year?

I'll also bet money that even with Jitte being the GP promo this year it's price will remain the same.

How much did the old fetches price change with the release of the new ones?
Just maybe two dollars.

What I'm trying to say is - reprints won't(in most cases) fuck your little price tag over.
What they WILL do is bring many more players into the format - more innovative minds and more players an just more fun in general. So yeah.

And whoever said the thing about "I play 'cause it's fun" you're my fucking hero.

[wmagzoo7]

Possibly I'm stating the obvious, but it seems like everyone is in one of two camps. People who own the cards and do not want them reprinted because the price could drop and then there are those who want cards to be reprinted in some way to allow more people to play.

I am sort of sitting on the fence with this issue in the sense that my friend has 80 Duals 8 Goyfs Power etc. and will let me borrow cards whenever I want, and he definitely does not need all of those cards but I wouldn't want him to lose hundreds if not thousands by something that WoTC did on a whim. However, I kick myself for getting rid of my 10-12 blue duals I had when I played Vintage the first time around. If the price was what it had been when I first bought them I would buy back in immediately.

If all of the old/ hard to find cards do continue their upward spiral it should reach a plateau and then fall back towards normalcy. As format interest decreases because you could not play without the astronomically priced cards the price would drop because no one would want to buy them for that price. This vicious cycle of supply and demand should keep the format reasonable, but that theory does not always work. If supply and demand does not hold up then it becomes haves vs. have nots, and format growth completely stops as no one can afford to buy into the format.

[majikal]

I'm for the intelligent reprinting of Dual Lands. If it was done well in a mythic rare (incredibly hard to get, even if you buy a box of cards)
No, no, no, 1000x NO! This is a terrible idea! It would create even MORE demand for duals in two formats that didn't previously have access to them while only increasing the supply by an insignificant amount. Prices would skyrocket instantly. If the duals are ever reprinted, it needs to be in something like the Duel Decks or FTV.

[Phoenix Ignition]

No, no, no, 1000x NO! This is a terrible idea! It would create even MORE demand for duals in two formats that didn't previously have access to them while only increasing the supply by an insignificant amount. Prices would skyrocket instantly. If the duals are ever reprinted, it needs to be in something like the Duel Decks or FTV.

Fine, or as some version of Priceless Treasures. Although I couldn't give a shit about what Standard people have legal to them, from what I hear it's all Jund vs Vampires vs crappy decks anyway. Demand would go up a ton, but there would be so many people buying boxes that it might cancel out with supply.

Nice temper tantrum though lol.

[paK0]

Duals will not be mythic Rares. I think Wizards said that only case Rares that are needed by certain Archetypes but not in the majority of decks will be mythic.

But i guess as long as the Reserved List exists we don't have to worry bout stuff like that =(.

[sunshine]

As someone who has invested enough in this format to build more or less any deck, I'm pretty comfortable in saying that I would rather WotC reprint those cards than let Legacy whither and die (if it ever came to that). Obviously we're not at that point right now, but if the day ever came (and some day it will) when players simply cannot find staples like FoW and Duals then I'd hope they would reprint them in some fashion... I mean what's the point in playing if 70% of the field is running sub-optimal decks due to availability? What's the alternative... sanctioned tourneys with proxies? Banning everything that's too hard to find? Suck it up and play a strictly worse deck? All would be even worse for the value of our cardboard, and more importantly, the health of the format.

I think we can all safely agree that as of right now there really isn't any threat of WotC redistributing anything that sits on the reserved list in a way that would be devastating to the value of the originals - and that the necessity of such a move is in the far distant future.

[AngryTroll]

Possibly I'm stating the obvious, but it seems like everyone is in one of two camps. People who own the cards and do not want them reprinted because the price could drop and then there are those who want cards to be reprinted in some way to allow more people to play.

I bet most people are in between those two camps. I have about half the dual lands (the ones that see the most play), but I'm still looking for two Seas, two Volcanics and a couple of other ones. I'm concerned that the increasing price of duals and Forces makes it even harder for players to get into the format. To pick up any sort of blue deck, for example, new players are looking at a set of Goyfs, Forces, 7 or 8 blue duals, and 7 to 8 fetchlands. That's $900 at SCG; that means probably about $700 or so if you hunt around. That's a pretty steep starting point. Yes, those cards go into a million decks. Yes, they never rotate. Yes, etc. It's still a very steep investment for someone just starting to play the format, so it seems very reasonable to print some more duals to lower their price.

On the other hand, widely available black-bordered NM dual lands would decrease the value of the old ones considerably. That makes mine worth less, but makes it easier to pick up more. The ones I have would still be worth more than I paid for them, and would still represent a fair amount of money. So I'm ambivalent.

[Magus of the Lolis]

Duals will not be mythic Rares. I think Wizards said that only case Rares that are needed by certain Archetypes but not in the majority of decks will be mythic.

right, and they've already ignored that how many times already.

as for reprints, did anyone own a set of psionic blasts before they reprinted them ? what are they worth now compared to before, yeah exactly. BOPs and pithing needles used to be hot. but how much are they worth now ?

also, if they reprinted duals, they'd be blackbordered. so chances are unlimited/revised duals would drop. also, if they were in a core set, they would also have to print them as foils. how much do you think a set of foil u.seas would run ? $400 ? that would drive the price of standard through the roof.

a lot of players commenting more based on biased personal opinion here than actual facts. I dont see as many actual hardcore collectors offering their thoughts. Im a player AND a collector. I buy the cards to play with, but I dont want them to go down in value either. some of you see to be forgetting its a collectible card game, not a trading card game. there is a lot more at stake here than what a handful of people think should happen with the game.

[Nizmox]

I also feel that speculators should severely be punished every once in a while by reprinting something that disappeared from stock all over, all of a sudden i.e. Loyal Retainer (probably reprinted as a Mythic).


I think this would be severely detrimental to Wizards. Causing sudden drops in the prices of cards would scare collectors away from Magic all together. Collectors would invest their money elsewhere since MTG cards suddenly became a very volatile market. A decrease in demand for their cards is not what Wizards want.

It's simple economics (As others have mentioned) that an increase in supply leads to decrease in price. The only way to offset this (while still increasing supply) is to also increase demand.
If Wizards heavily focus on pushing the legacy format (with tournaments, prizes etc...) as well as reprint legacy staples (with decent rarity, i.e. Mythic) this could keep both collectors and new players happy, boosting the format but not drastically altering the price of the cards. Though it would be a balancing act and collectors may lose faith in MTG at even the mention of reprints.

(as mentioned the reprints couldn't be standard/extended legal or this would increase demand and thus price even moreso).


right, and they've already ignored that how many times already.
Yep, anyone who says that Mythic Rares were not created for a purpose other than more $$$ for Wizards epic fails.

[Koby]

I think this would be severely detrimental to Wizards. Causing sudden drops in the prices of cards would scare collectors away from Magic all together. Collectors would invest their money elsewhere since MTG cards suddenly became a very volatile market. A decrease in demand for their cards is not what Wizards want. blah blah blah blah blah blah


I don't think you get it. For Wizards, there is no "collector". Wizards doesn't sell singles. They sell Booster Packs. Are collectors buying booster boxes to sit on their shelves? Are they buying a case of the newest standard set to crack all the packs? Not likely. They buy/trade singles to "complete" a set.

Players are by far the largest demand for new product. Create a neat set, say M10, with over 50% new cards, and you'll see record sales.

The myth of the collector is bubkis. It is a myth from the time of Chronicles, when printing was small and demand was high. Now we have large printings; granted, still below the demand - but that's good business for WotC (pack sales) and shop owners (singles reselling).

Believe me when I say this, not all are fortunate to be in large metropolis with lots of game shops. In my small town of 40,000, we have 2 game shops that can barely keep enough product to support a single FNM. How is such a phenomenon good for the health of Magic?

[ryO!]

new funny thing
2 PLAYED wasteland going for 42$ (27min to go)
wait what?
a buy it now for one at 29$ what_the_f*ck?

loyal retainers i guess i was lucky to pick the 2 last from shuffleandcut (@ the old "normal" price) just after reading this topic on sunday night, i needed them for my survival anyway ... although i thought i could wait but seeing what's happened to those ...

ebay seems to be mad, prices aren't like this at all in france ...

[Nizmox]

I don't think you get it. For Wizards, there is no "collector".

I totally disagree, as someone else mentioned it's a CCG not a TCG. If Wizards doesn't care about collectors please explain the purpose of the Reserved List? Whether or not Wizards sells direct to collectors matters not, it's still ultimately demand for their products. The mere fact that magic spans such a long time span and that all the cards are still playable today is what makes it such a popular card game and the only one to have lasted the test of time.


Believe me when I say this, not all are fortunate to be in large metropolis with lots of game shops. In my small town of 40,000, we have 2 game shops that can barely keep enough product to support a single FNM. How is such a phenomenon good for the health of Magic?

Are we talking about standard or legacy here? I don't get the point of this statement. I don't see how lowering the price of legacy staples is going to get a legacy game going in your area if it can't even support standard?
I would have thought the internet and sites like SCG etc... has made access to single card purchases available to everyone? I live in Sydney, Australia with a pop of 4 mill and while I can buy singles here, I still find online stores have a much better range and are often cheaper. But it sounds like the barrier to entry is your low population not the card costs?

[mogote]

I think this would be severely detrimental to Wizards. Causing sudden drops in the prices of cards would scare collectors away from Magic all together. Collectors would invest their money elsewhere since MTG cards suddenly became a very volatile market. A decrease in demand for their cards is not what Wizards want.
Wizards reprinting cards played in the Eternal formats that are not on the reserved list is totally fair game in my opinion (reserved cards are still possible to be reprinted as judge promos anyway).
In this case the health of the game is far more important than the wallet of some random collector. It's not like it's rarity alone that pushes the prices of singles but also the demand by actual Eternal players without whom cards like Imperial Recruiter wouldn't be that expensive in the first place. Otherwise all those price increases we've witnessed in the last few years wouldn't have occured.
Also, a card not being reprinted is not a guarantee for a stable or even rising card price (see Cursed Scroll, Morphling or Masticore)

[MMogg]

right, and they've already ignored that how many times already.

as for reprints, did anyone own a set of psionic blasts before they reprinted them ? what are they worth now compared to before, yeah exactly. BOPs and pithing needles used to be hot. but how much are they worth now ?

also, if they reprinted duals, they'd be blackbordered. so chances are unlimited/revised duals would drop. also, if they were in a core set, they would also have to print them as foils. how much do you think a set of foil u.seas would run ? $400 ? that would drive the price of standard through the roof.

a lot of players commenting more based on biased personal opinion here than actual facts. I dont see as many actual hardcore collectors offering their thoughts. Im a player AND a collector. I buy the cards to play with, but I dont want them to go down in value either. some of you see to be forgetting its a collectible card game, not a trading card game. there is a lot more at stake here than what a handful of people think should happen with the game.

You probably don't see hardcore collectors chiming in because this is a player site more than a collector's site. What you're forgetting is that collectibility is based on the game, not on rarity alone. I remember Psionic Blast (lost money) and Underworld Dreams (lost money), but I also remember fetches and shocklands that made obsolete my painlands. I watched my Jackal Pups and Cursed Scrolls tank with creature power creep. This has never been a stagnant game and there are no sure bets. True, Revised duals would plummet to probably $5 per if they were reprinted in a set, including bb and foiled, but I don't think I'd care. I even have several FBB duals now, and I wouldn't care if they fell to a low value (although I doubt they would). I truly and deeply oppose manabases being barriers to a format. Could you imagine if Island cost $10 each? How about $20 each? That's how I feel when I see duals at crazy prices. That they are rare and special I can accept, but because they are so vital to Legacy and deckbuilding, they are vital to the format and ultimately "fun", and I don't like that barrier getting larger and larger.

[caiomarcos]

You probably don't see hardcore collectors chiming in because this is a player site more than a collector's site. What you're forgetting is that collectibility is based on the game, not on rarity alone. I remember Psionic Blast (lost money) and Underworld Dreams (lost money), but I also remember fetches and shocklands that made obsolete my painlands. I watched my Jackal Pups and Cursed Scrolls tank with creature power creep. This has never been a stagnant game and there are no sure bets. True, Revised duals would plummet to probably $5 per if they were reprinted in a set, including bb and foiled, but I don't think I'd care. I even have several FBB duals now, and I wouldn't care if they fell to a low value (although I doubt they would). I truly and deeply oppose manabases being barriers to a format. Could you imagine if Island cost $10 each? How about $20 each? That's how I feel when I see duals at crazy prices. That they are rare and special I can accept, but because they are so vital to Legacy and deckbuilding, they are vital to the format and ultimately "fun", and I don't like that barrier getting larger and larger.

A side question - are there any M:tG website or community for collectors? Just a sincere doubt...

[MMogg]

A side question - are there any M:tG website or community for collectors? Just a sincere doubt...

Others probably know better than I do, but I know there is a site specializing in rarities.

[oRen]

A side question - are there any M:tG website or community for collectors? Just a sincere doubt...

http://www.magiclibrarities.net/forum/
most insane page.

@topic ... i sadly sold my it tabernacle for ~70 euros before 1 month ...
reminds me of the stock-market :really:

regards

[edgewalker]

I totally disagree, as someone else mentioned it's a CCG not a TCG.

I really want to stay out of this discussion, but this caught my eye. Are you truly going to argue that M:TG is designed for collectors rather than players? It might be called a CCG, but the intention is for playing (Collectable Card GAME) The less people playing the less money Wizards makes. Wizards doesn't make money from people collecting and keeping cards. Wizards makes the bulk of it's funds from Packs and Boxes.

My point is that from an economical standpoint, it would be a good idea for wizards to reprint duals as mythics or some other rarity. They would see the largest jump in sales ever, and because of the higher card availability the more people will play the game. When more people are playing the game, more people are buying product.

[caiomarcos]

I really want to stay out of this discussion, but this caught my eye. Are you truly going to argue that M:TG is designed for collectors rather than players? It might be called a CCG, but the intention is for playing (Collectable Card GAME) The less people playing the less money Wizards makes. Wizards doesn't make money from people collecting and keeping cards. Wizards makes the bulk of it's funds from Packs and Boxes.

My point is that from an economical standpoint, it would be a good idea for wizards to reprint duals as mythics or some other rarity. They would see the largest jump in sales ever, and because of the higher card availability the more people will play the game. When more people are playing the game, more people are buying product.

It just came to me now that Wizars HAS already "reprinted" duals and Seal and such. Just look at the foil U. Seas going around MOL.

Maybe that will be their way of doing Legacy and other formats, while leaving the paper eternal formats/cards for rich people and collectors.

Wanna play Legacy? Go to MOL, there they can do all this "reprinting" by the click of a mouse button. Is FoW or duals getting expensive by the hour? Oh, here it is some more Master Ed. events for you.

By the way, I hate MOL, it is just completely made out of FAIL!

[ryO!]

Many of you don't have the slightest inche of common sense.

reprint Dual in M11 !
Dual land black bordered in T2/Extented again, price drop? serioulsy? please ...
foil dual land, price drop? seriously ? again please ...

reprint in FTV !
u think u ll get them (the box) 35$ in shop? seriously? please ...
foil dual land, price drop? seriously ? again please ...

reprint as mythic because they are so hard to find !
so mythic cards are harder to find? seriously? please ...

reprint them a common just like random basic land
yeah price drop !


damn legacy is so expensive especially the mana base
for god sake since when legacy was one time something else than an expensive format. And about dual lands, they ALWAYS were expensive but of course the price have increased since 1994 due to the inflation and the rarefaction which are both normal effect as the time goes by ...

As it has been said, you can use duals from ravinca or just similary cards for each you can't afford. And why on earth for someone that is starting right now, everything should be cheap? i mean you don't buy a full legacy deck one shot, you do it piece by piece ... Listening to some of you it sound like this : "hey i am new to legacy, i ve never collected cards before so please allow me to have 4fow 4Usea 4Irecruiter 4w/e 4w/e for 5$ ok? please?". Well no, you do like everyone did, you get your cards one at a time and in the meantime you use smth else which is more or less similar and cheaper than the actual card you want. Or what, does't it mean without all the big staples you can't have fun? does it mean that if you don't win a tour right now, there's no fun?

[edgewalker]

Many of you don't have the slightest inche of common sense.

reprint Dual in M11 !
Dual land black bordered in T2/Extented again, price drop? serioulsy? please ...
foil dual land, price drop? seriously ? again please ...

reprint in FTV !
u think u ll get them (the box) 35$ in shop? seriously? please ...
foil dual land, price drop? seriously ? again please ...

reprint as mythic because they are so hard to find !
so mythic cards are harder to find? seriously? please ...

reprint them a common just like random basic land
yeah price drop !


damn legacy is so expensive especially the mana base
for god sake since when legacy was one time something else than an expensive format. And about dual lands, they ALWAYS were expensive but of course the price have increased since 1994 due to the inflation and the rarefaction which are both normal effect as the time goes by ...

As it has been said, you can use duals from ravinca or just similary cards for each you can't afford. And why on earth for someone that is starting right now, everything should be cheap? i mean you don't buy a full legacy deck one shot, you do it piece by piece ... Listening to some of you it sound like this : "hey i am new to legacy, i ve never collected cards before so please allow me to have 4fow 4Usea 4Irecruiter 4w/e 4w/e for 5$ ok? please?". Well no, you do like everyone did, you get your cards one at a time and in the meantime you use smth else which is more or less similar and cheaper than the actual card you want. Or what, does't it mean without all the big staples you can't have fun? does it mean that if you don't win a tour right now, there's no fun?

I remember when I could get most duals (not tundra or Useas) for around $10 give or take a buck or two. That doesn't sound too expensive. It was also a time when a lot less people played. These cards only got expensive because the demand increased. The way I see it, why not meet the demand. This is a card game, not the stock market. Like many people keep saying, Wizards doesn't make money off collectors, they make it off the players. God forbid we stop acting like an all boys club and open up to a wider player base.

[Dan Turner]

Many of you don't have the slightest inche of common sense.

reprint Dual in M11 !
Dual land black bordered in T2/Extented again, price drop? serioulsy? please ...
foil dual land, price drop? seriously ? again please ...

reprint in FTV !
u think u ll get them (the box) 35$ in shop? seriously? please ...
foil dual land, price drop? seriously ? again please ...

reprint as mythic because they are so hard to find !
so mythic cards are harder to find? seriously? please ...

reprint them a common just like random basic land
yeah price drop !


damn legacy is so expensive especially the mana base
for god sake since when legacy was one time something else than an expensive format. And about dual lands, they ALWAYS were expensive but of course the price have increased since 1994 due to the inflation and the rarefaction which are both normal effect as the time goes by ...

As it has been said, you can use duals from ravinca or just similary cards for each you can't afford. And why on earth for someone that is starting right now, everything should be cheap? i mean you don't buy a full legacy deck one shot, you do it piece by piece ... Listening to some of you it sound like this : "hey i am new to legacy, i ve never collected cards before so please allow me to have 4fow 4Usea 4Irecruiter 4w/e 4w/e for 5$ ok? please?". Well no, you do like everyone did, you get your cards one at a time and in the meantime you use smth else which is more or less similar and cheaper than the actual card you want. Or what, does't it mean without all the big staples you can't have fun? does it mean that if you don't win a tour right now, there's no fun?


Problem is not people wanting them for $5 each or whatever, the problem is legacy will die when Seas and such are $100 per card. When your mana base starts costing $1k before you buy any other cards thats wehn wizards needs to start on reprinting cards.

I personally own 2 full sets of duals plus binders full of almost every other staple in the format and I want my friends to be able to play. So I support a reprint policy in moderation. I say make a MPR card specific to Legacy events Once per month it can be a different card if you participate in 2 events that month you get one. And use that as a way of reprinting legacy staples and getting them out into the market.


But when it cost more then most players can budget for a deck to get started then we will not get any new blood and just like any other format without new blood it eventually dies out. Look at Vintage other then once or twice a year there are no real sanctioned events.

[Nidd]

I feel like I'm repeating myself here, but nevermind.

I don't care about the prices like 2-3 months again. Or even today. Looking at Wasteland and thinking "wow, 12€, ok." is alright, buying 2 U Sea for 40€ each was ok for me. But the problem I see arising is not that people have to buy the cards for these prices - it's rather that there won't be enough available when the format has grown bigger.


And seriously, if you think you can replace Duals by using Shocklands, then you must be trolling. Shocklands are not acceptable for the majority of decks.

[ryO!]

And seriously, if you think you can replace Duals by using Shocklands, then you must be trolling. Shocklands are not acceptable for the majority of decks.

and? it's something similar and yet not as good but affordable, i am not talking about being competitive but playable. You still can have fun with it with friends so please don't say it's an efficiency matter when you still can go to a tour have fun with it. it's not like you ll finish first even with Usea ... You all say it's a game, but it seems by game you mean competition to get 1st rather than a fun game.

[Nidd]

and? it's something similar and yet not as good but affordable, i am not talking about being competitive but playable. You still can have fun with it with friends so please don't say it's an efficiency matter when you still can go to a tour have fun with it. it's not like you ll finish first even with Usea ... You all say it's a game, but it seems by game you mean competition to get 1st rather than a fun game.
Some people are Spikes, some people are Johnnys, some people are Timmys.

Winning is more fun than losing, isn't it?

By the way, if you want to play only with friends, then sure, Shocklands are considerable. I want to go to tournaments and place somewhere T16 or even T8. I can't afford to pay 2 life to have an untapped land. For some decks that might even be doable, but certainly not for DDANT.

[ryO!]

Some people are Spikes, some people are Johnnys, some people are Timmys.

Winning is more fun than losing, isn't it?

By the way, if you want to play only with friends, then sure, Shocklands are considerable. I want to go to tournaments and place somewhere T16 or even T8. I can't afford to pay 2 life to have an untapped land. For some decks that might even be doable, but certainly not for DDANT.

playing is fun no matter if you lose or win damn it, it really seems like a spoil child talk : "if i don't win i quit!" "if i don't have this exact deck i quit" (no offence i mean i rly think that the efficiency matter shouldn't be taken into consideration).

as for the second statement, well don't play DDANT.

Don't forget that as long as it ll remain a non free game, there will ALWAYS have inequalities ... and the solution isn't to systematically reprint every card that goes above 20/30$ ...

[Nidd]

playing is fun no matter if you lose or win damn it, it really seems like a spoil child talk : "if i don't win i quit!" "if i don't have this exact deck i quit" (no offence i mean i rly think that the efficiency matter shouldn't be taken into consideration).

as for the second statement, well don't play DDANT.

Don't forget that as long as it ll remain a non free game, there will ALWAYS have inequalities ... and the solution isn't to systematically reprint every card that goes above 20/30$ ...
We can now go into a discussion in order to define fun. But I don't think we both don't want to write novels, do we?

Okay, so let's talk about card availability and the consequences.
What do you think will happen when one day a Dual costs 100€+?
Manabases are the core of every deck and you can't build a competitive manabase (yes, I'm now talking about competitive, because apparently that's where we are heading now, thanks to WotC) without Duals. What is the consequence, then?
There aren't enough Duals for the GPs this year, it seems. Prices will rise until they are over.

[ryO!]

We can now go into a discussion in order to define fun. But I don't think we both don't want to write novels, do we?

Okay, so let's talk about card availability and the consequences.
What do you think will happen when one day a Dual costs 100€+?
Manabases are the core of every deck and you can't build a competitive manabase (yes, I'm now talking about competitive, because apparently that's where we are heading now, thanks to WotC) without Duals. What is the consequence, then?
There aren't enough Duals for the GPs this year, it seems. Prices will rise until they are over.

yes but then show me how a reprint would drastically reduce the price of duals?

reprint Dual in M11 !
Dual land black bordered in T2/Extented again, price drop? serioulsy? please ...
foil dual land, price drop? seriously ? again please ...

reprint in FTV !
u think u ll get them for (the box) 35$ in shop? seriously? please ...
foil dual land, price drop? seriously ? again please ...

reprint as mythic because they are so hard to find !
so mythic cards are harder to find? seriously? please ...

reprint them a common just like random basic land
yeah price drop !

Proper spelling and capitalisation is required on this forum. Please proceed to use it. ~Nihil Credo

[Phoenix Ignition]

This is a card game, not the stock market. Like many people keep saying, Wizards doesn't make money off collectors, they make it off the players.

Many people are ignorant, and don't understand what a secondary market does to keep the primary market going. Here, for you and everyone else who agrees with that statement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_market . Wizards makes money off of a strong secondary market backing up the cards prices so that people can justify spending 70$+ on 36 packs of cards. People assume they will be able to get some value out of this due to a highly liquid secondary market. This thread is becoming stupider than N&D.

[Misplayer]

playing is fun no matter if you lose or win damn it, it really seems like a spoil child talk : "if i don't win i quit!" "if i don't have this exact deck i quit" (no offence i mean i rly think that the efficiency matter shouldn't be taken into consideration).

This is a ridiculous statement. You're telling me you have as good of a time going 0-5 then when you go 5-0 and top 4/8? Hell, I get pissed when I finish 3-2 at a local event. I'm a competitive person so that contributes, but since when is going winless fun? If that's true, then you wouldn't conceivably ever need ANY of the expensive legacy staples. Is Tarmogoyf more fun than Werebear? Is Force of Will more fun than Counterspell? The reason these cards are desireable is because they make it easier to win. Competing and winning is arguably one of the biggest factors behind the prices of cards on the secondary market. People don't want to play 43Lands and Retainers-Iona because it's fun, they want to win.

/RANT

I'm curious about how much the discussion in this thread alone has contributed to the online blowout of cards like Loyal Retainers. If I didn't regularly read the Survival threads, this card wouldn't even be on my radar screen were it not for threads like this. I'd guess that at least 5 or 6 people scoured the internet and bought up all the copies they could find just because of what they read in this thread, likely for speculative purposes.

[ryO!]

This is a ridiculous statement. You're telling me you have as good of a time going 0-5 then when you go 5-0 and top 4/8? Hell, I get pissed when I finish 3-2 at a local event. I'm a competitive person so that contributes, but since when is going winless fun? If that's true, then you wouldn't conceivably ever need ANY of the expensive legacy staples. Is Tarmogoyf more fun than Werebear? Is Force of Will more fun than Counterspell? The reason these cards are desireable is because they make it easier to win. Competing and winning is arguably one of the biggest factors behind the prices of cards on the secondary market. People don't want to play 43Lands and Retainers-Iona because it's fun, they want to win.

/RANT

I'm curious about how much the discussion in this thread alone has contributed to the online blowout of cards like Loyal Retainers. If I didn't regularly read the Survival threads, this card wouldn't even be on my radar screen were it not for threads like this. I'd guess that at least 5 or 6 people scoured the internet and bought up all the copies they could find just because of what they read in this thread, likely for speculative purposes.

so what ? if you don't win you quit? u don't try harder, look for alternative? bouhou. indeed your statement isn't ridiculous.

/i am cool because i "slash"

Let's hard reprint any card so Wizard can sell their booster packs for half of what it is now as everything must be availalbe by anyone, i am sure that is their target!

[Phoenix Ignition]

so what ? if you don't win you quit? u don't try harder, look for alternative? bouhou. indeed your statement isn't ridiculous.

/i am cool because i "slash"

Let's hard reprint any card so Wizard can sell their booster packs for half of what it is now, i am sure that is their target!

... [Snip] - Bardo, grumble ...

You also didn't listen to a thing he just said, but if you don't understand that some people (over half on this site I'd wager) play to win with the exact 75 cards that they believe are necessary, then you probably should try reading any of the Decks to Beat threads. If you want to play to have a good time and you don't spend the money to buy the cards you need to win that's fine, no one blames you (try out Cavius' Casual and Budget forums), but you really need to accept that there are people out there with different objectives in this hobby than you have.

[paK0]

playing is fun no matter if you lose or win damn it, it really seems like a spoil child talk : "if i don't win i quit!" "if i don't have this exact deck i quit" (no offence i mean i rly think that the efficiency matter shouldn't be taken into consideration).

as for the second statement, well don't play DDANT.

Don't forget that as long as it ll remain a non free game, there will ALWAYS have inequalities ... and the solution isn't to systematically reprint every card that goes above 20/30$ ...



You basically stated why Vintage dies:
Can't afford it? Don't play.

Thats just ridiculous, some cards will always be more expensive, but as soon as the investment to get into a format gets too high something is going wrong.





One personal thing: Please come to our local tournaments, its gonna be win/win. We will have byes while we stomp you Grizzlybears with our Goyfs, we win, you have fun playing, sounds like a good deal to me.

[edgewalker]

Many people are ignorant, and don't understand what a secondary market does to keep the primary market going. Here, for you and everyone else who agrees with that statement: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_market . Wizards makes money off of a strong secondary market backing up the cards prices so that people can justify spending 70$+ on 36 packs of cards. People assume they will be able to get some value out of this due to a highly liquid secondary market. This thread is becoming stupider than N&D.

Good read, I like being informed. My question is, where does Wizards' earn the bulk of it's revenue from? Second, maybe I'm missing something, because all I know of economics is that article and what I learned in AP Eco about 3 years ago. However, the article itself says,

"As a general rule, the greater the number of investors that participate in a given marketplace, and the greater the centralization of that marketplace, the more liquid the market."

Being highly liquid is apparently a good thing,

"In the secondary market, securities are sold by and transferred from one investor or speculator to another. It is therefore important that the secondary market be highly liquid..."

So the way I see it, the higher the prices of these scarce cards rise, the less people are going to invest in them. As fewer people people invest in these cards (buy them) the market becomes less liquid and therefore shitty. Does that sound right?

I'm not saying wizards starts printing duals on toilet paper, but they should at least try to find a way to reintroduce them into the market so the prices drop enough for them to be available but at the same time don't flood the market. I agree that not everyone should own every single card, but it's getting to a point as more people play they won't be able to enter the format due to scarcity of cards.

EDIT: The price tag shouldn't be the only thing keeping people from playing a format. Most decks these days cost almost a quarter of my tuition. I think that's a little high, even if the cards are accumulated over time.

[MattH]

a lot of players commenting more based on biased personal opinion here than actual facts. I dont see as many actual hardcore collectors offering their thoughts. Im a player AND a collector. I buy the cards to play with, but I dont want them to go down in value either.
Please let's use accurate terminology: if you're more worried about the value of your cards than about your ability to find opponents to use them against, you're not a collector, you're an investor.

Not all reprints affect cards the same way. Some prices are high because the cards' utility creates a high demand: fetchlands, FoW, Tarmogoyf really are *that* good, to deserve their price tag. But some cards are only high in price because of their rarity: Juzam Djinn is worthless except for the cachet of owning an iconic piece of the game's history.

Only cards in the latter category have to fear a serious price crash from reprints. This was the problem of Chronicles; because they reprinted a bunch of terrible cards, they reprinted cards for which there was little demand (the Palladia-Mors Fan Club meetings had a lot of empty chairs), devastating prices. The outrage over that led directly to the reserve list. When Underworld Dreams was reprinted in 8th edition, the price of Legends edition Dreams fell from $30ish to $13ish, because Underworld Dreams is a bad card whose price was mostly coasting on rarity, not utility.

It can be tricky to figure out how much of a card's value is wrapped up in speculation and nostalgia, and how much of the value represents underlying utility. Offhand, I would guess that reprinting duals and FoW would cause only a minor dip in the value of the originals - maybe 25% at the most - whereas reprinting the Portal goodies would destroy their value (dropping 75% or more). Of course, I'm fine with that, but that would be my guess even if I wasn't.

The issue is further complicated by the fact that Magic prices are non-linear (most goods have nonlinear prices but Magic especially so). That is, a $200 card is not trade-able for two hundred $1 cards, so percentage increases/decreases are higher for more valuable cards. A reprint of Force of Will won't drop the value of the original version much because people believe that it is appropriate and acceptable for the best cards to be worth $30, whereas very few people will agree that any Magic card is so good as to be worth $100+, so even very good cards like Moat have no popular support to keep them from shedding huge percentages.


But the problem I see arising is not that people have to buy the cards for these prices - it's rather that there won't be enough available when the format has grown bigger.
??? Price and card availability are not independent issues.

[Koby]

I would have thought the internet and sites like SCG etc... has made access to single card purchases available to everyone?

Therein lies the problem: once we rely on remote dealers, we diminish card availability, open our pockets up to gotcha gouging, and buy into the speculation trap.

Last check on duals @ SCG (Revised):
Badlands 35
Bayou 40
Plateau 33
Savannah 38
Scrubland 35
Taiga 45 (out of stock)
Tropical 50
Tundra 55
Underground Sea 70
Volcanic Island 45

These first 5 used to be under $15 no more than 4 years ago. With the increased demand, there needs to be increases supply, or prices will continue to shoot up to astronomical values easily shutting out a vast majority of players who would like to play Legacy competitively.

Explain again how putting up a barrier to entry is good for the health of a format? Prime example: Vintage.

[wmagzoo7]

Well besides the fact that Vintage in some areas is flourishing (The Mid Atlantic) you are pretty much spot on Rukcus. When they were much less though, people didn't necessarily want them and so this is a case of supply and demand. People want the cards so they cost more, it's as simple as that.

[Anusien]

Therein lies the problem: once we rely on remote dealers, we diminish card availability
The internet makes cards more available, not less. I'm pretty sure there are cities or even states where none of the dealers have The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale for sale. And even if they did, if they're not competing with Ebay and MOTL and other places, there's no cap to what they could charge. It means cards cost basically the same no matter where you are, if you're willing to ship.

[Nidd]

??? Price and card availability are not independent issues.
I know quite a lot of T2 players who could byu BSAs if they wanted to, but they don't feel like shelling out 45-50€ for one.

Price and availability may be related, but they certainly aren't that reliant on each other.

[GUnit]

I'm sure it's already been mentioned multiple times, but the fact that there are multiple Legacy GP's as well as the new SCG 5K Legacy tournament series is really increasing the popularity of this format, which is awesome.

[cdr]

I'm sure it's already been mentioned multiple times, but the fact that there are multiple Legacy GP's as well as the new SCG 5K Legacy tournament series is really increasing the popularity of this format, which is awesome.

Awesome aside from the fact that the increased demand could end up permanently damaging or destroying the format, absent drastic action by WotC.

[Forbiddian]

Awesome aside from the fact that the increased demand could end up permanently damaging or destroying the format, absent drastic action by WotC.

I don't think so, Legacy prices are still manageable and not that far off of Standard/Extended still.

If you want to talk fucked up, how about $55 for a Baneslayer Angel? That's in Standard, right now.

[AngryTroll]

I don't think so, Legacy prices are still manageable and not that far off of Standard/Extended still.

If you want to talk fucked up, how about $55 for a Baneslayer Angel? That's in Standard, right now.

Yeah, but every deck doesn't run 7 or 8 Baneslayers. There's only a few Legacy decks that don't run 7 or 8 $40+ Duals.

[cdr]

I don't think so, Legacy prices are still manageable and not that far off of Standard/Extended still.

If you want to talk fucked up, how about $55 for a Baneslayer Angel? That's in Standard, right now.

As has been noted, Baneslayer's price is driven almost entirely by the fact that it's standard legal and the fact that it's mythic. I don't see $55 for Baneslayer as unreasonable considering those facts - and in fact I would expect it to go up, considering among other things that WotC is apparently ceasing to print M10 outside of the US.

With M11, it will either be reprinted or rotate out - either way, it should go down a fair amount.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Good read, I like being informed. My question is, where does Wizards' earn the bulk of it's revenue from? Second, maybe I'm missing something, because all I know of economics is that article and what I learned in AP Eco about 3 years ago. However, the article itself says,

"As a general rule, the greater the number of investors that participate in a given marketplace, and the greater the centralization of that marketplace, the more liquid the market."

Being highly liquid is apparently a good thing,

"In the secondary market, securities are sold by and transferred from one investor or speculator to another. It is therefore important that the secondary market be highly liquid..."

So the way I see it, the higher the prices of these scarce cards rise, the less people are going to invest in them. As fewer people people invest in these cards (buy them) the market becomes less liquid and therefore shitty. Does that sound right?

I'm not saying wizards starts printing duals on toilet paper, but they should at least try to find a way to reintroduce them into the market so the prices drop enough for them to be available but at the same time don't flood the market. I agree that not everyone should own every single card, but it's getting to a point as more people play they won't be able to enter the format due to scarcity of cards.

EDIT: The price tag shouldn't be the only thing keeping people from playing a format. Most decks these days cost almost a quarter of my tuition. I think that's a little high, even if the cards are accumulated over time.

I agree with most of your points here. My personal feelings on this are that they should reprint duals to help more people join in if they want the format, even if it drops all of my cards down in price. The main thing I want to get across though is that Wizards makes tons of money just off of the fact that there is a secondary market for the cards. Of course they only directly make money from sales of boxes, but the demand for these goes up quite a bit when people know they can make money or lose less money selling the individual cards in the box.

Wizards profits quite a bit because people have faith in the value of these cards. I have no problem buying duals if I know I can sell them for give or take the same price. There is an unspoken trust in WotC that they will not go bonkers and reprint every expensive card to the point that every player alive has more than a set. If they did that they would make money fast but many players could leave the game. The bubble would burst as the secondary market collapsed and no one would be able to liquefy their assets. I know this happened in some other card game but I don't recall its name. If they reprinted everything haphazardly they would profit quite a bit, but the game would eventually plummet to the point that every card was worth the same amount.

I would still play the game, but many people would be angry and quit. It would be the equivalent of MWS, where idiots have every good card they want and still are retarded. I think theres some good in having expensive cards, it keeps people from buying decks without thinking them through. There isn't enough thought in deck selection among many people, and I know from personal experience that playtesting the hell out of an expensive card before buying it is definitely good Magic.


Yeah, but every deck doesn't run 7 or 8 Baneslayers. There's only a few Legacy decks that don't run 7 or 8 $40+ Duals.
You can get by with less though, especially with the new fetches. It's also good to note that the new fetches help players getting into the game a lot with their manabases. My friend and I have been sharing a set of all the duals for a while and splitting 2-2 is really not the worst thing in the world. It only really hurts when you both want to play the same decktype, and even then 3 duals of a type will usually produce no different results in a normal tournament.

[Solaran_X]

I just want to know how much longer people are going to keep up the imaginary pretense about Illusionary Mask remaining banned for financial reasons. Unlimited Masks are down to $62.95 average on MOTL, with both Moat ($123.82 average) and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale ($222.84 average!!!) now vastly eclipsing Illusionary Mask in price and being in two of the highest profile decks in recent months (thanks to SCG$5Ks).

If Mask is banned for financial reasons (like many believe), then Moat and Tabernacle have to go for the exact same reason (although I don't believe I'll ever see the same crowd saying Mask needs to stay banned because it's "too expensive" say anything about these because we're used to them in Legacy).

Or they can just unban Illusionary Mask, but that is for another discussion.

But seriously though...Moat and Tabernacle are better examples than dual lands for "price creep". Dual lands have been rising steadily in value for years, yet Moat and Tabernacle doubled or tripled in price just over a 6 month period.

[Phoenix Ignition]

But seriously though...Moat and Tabernacle are better examples than dual lands for "price creep". Dual lands have been rising steadily in value for years, yet Moat and Tabernacle doubled or tripled in price just over a 6 month period.

No, not at all. Price creep is the steady growth in price of a good card over time. Tabernacle and Moat were fringe cards that weren't used almost at all for a long time, and their power was not fully understood. It isn't that the price creep happened to them, it's that people realized they were awesome cards and demand skyrocketed.

[majikal]

Well, out of curiosity I looked on eBay for Loyal Retainers. I found one, in Japanese, with 11 bids on it going for $60+ already, with six days left. Glad I picked mine up already. :eek:

[dahcmai]

Heh called that one. Should I list the next hot tickets?

After payday, I think I will. I need to pick up a few more things first though. There's a couple I don't have my playset of yet.

There's a ton of cards out there that people have just plain forgotten about. I had to laugh when I saw Glacial Crevasses lately and realized it's a hot card for any deck running Crucible or Loam, and some Mountains. Easy enough to change those mountains to Snow Covered ones and you have a built in perma fog. Spore Frog has taught us that it doesn't need to be a good card to have a good use. Granted, not many decks need a perma-fog especially the red ones, but that's a nice option to keep in mind. I thought of a couple of decks that could use it though. What do you Imperial Painter players think?

[MattH]

As has been noted, Baneslayer's price is driven almost entirely by the fact that it's standard legal and the fact that it's mythic. I don't see $55 for Baneslayer as unreasonable considering those facts - and in fact I would expect it to go up, considering among other things that WotC is apparently ceasing to print M10 outside of the US.

With M11, it will either be reprinted or rotate out - either way, it should go down a fair amount.
Also that while M10 was a hot seller, there still wasn't THAT much opened, especially compared to block sets (and WAY especially compared to large sets like Shards that were drafted for a full year).

[Julian23]

I consider putting my Mint English Loyal Retainers on ebay. What do you honestly expect them to go for during this hype right now considering the auction at 60$ with 6 days left?

[majikal]

I consider putting my Mint English Loyal Retainers on ebay. What do you honestly expect them to go for during this hype right now considering the auction at 60$ with 6 days left?
There's really no way to tell. This is the first auction I've seen since they became the hot item of the moment. I'd say watch and wait, honestly. I'm guessing it will end in triple digits for sure though.

[Phoenix Ignition]

There's really no way to tell. This is the first auction I've seen since they became the hot item of the moment. I'd say watch and wait, honestly. I'm guessing it will end in triple digits for sure though.

2 are up for buy it nows under 3 digits.

But they're spelled incorrectly lol....

[Reverend Damaged]

2 are up for buy it nows under 3 digits.

But they're spelled incorrectly lol....


Loyal Retaine! The "R" ran away. Almost bought one of these but I checked out allmagiccards.com real quick and found a place that had a couple for around $65 each.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

My roommate got one at a local card shop today for $40.

[Tha Gunslinga]

You guys are a self-fulfilling prophecy. "Quick, some random claimed that Loyal Retainers is going up! I'd better go buy up every single one I can find. Oh, wow, people are listing them on ebay at high prices. What a surprise!"

[Phoenix Ignition]

You guys are a self-fulfilling prophecy. "Quick, some random claimed that Loyal Retainers is going up! I'd better go buy up every single one I can find. Oh, wow, people are listing them on ebay at high prices. What a surprise!"

Who was surprised?

[Reverend Damaged]

You guys are a self-fulfilling prophecy. "Quick, some random claimed that Loyal Retainers is going up! I'd better go buy up every single one I can find. Oh, wow, people are listing them on ebay at high prices. What a surprise!"

More and more people will start running this card in their Survival toolboxes with Iona, so eventually it would go up in price anyway as they disappeared off the market (whether it was the hot card in this discussion or not). Maybe not at the rate it's increasing now, but it would happen. The only way to keep the price down on the card is if people only bought it if they were sure they'd use it. Unfortunately, most people are just buying them up for the intention of reselling them when the prices plateau.


I lost to a survival build with that card in it last week, it wasn't awesome. Not for me anyway. I can definitely see why it's so popular. I couldn't even imagine playing Survival without Retainers + Iona in it now. It's just too good.

[majikal]

2 are up for buy it nows under 3 digits.

But they're spelled incorrectly lol....
Those are Chinese though. Aren't they more common than the English ones? Still it's like $90 with $4 shipping! That guys seems to sell a lot of them too.

@ThaGunslinga: It's so amusing to watch though!

[scrumdogg]

I'm really glad I picked up my playset some time ago at +/- $15 pop for I Will Survive. Go go, goofy decks :cool:

[dahcmai]

I guess the question now is "Are they really that good in that Survival deck?". I used them in "I will Survive" also and had a Angel Blink deck of my own build that did quite well, but Iona wasn't out yet. It's a good trick to be sure, but is it worth that tag? I expect it to settle around $60 in the end. He's worth that.

[ramanujan]

There is now a Loyal Retainers Chinese version on ebay with buy it now set at $150.00. Does anyone think that it will sell? I know that one auction does not dictate the average going rate but I am curious if it will sell. I personally think that the price is about 40.00 high but I guess we'll see.

[Reverend Damaged]

$150 for a Loyal Retainers is insane. I can see the card being expensive as discussed, but if anyone buys one for $150 they have more money than sense.

[Julian23]

$150 for a Loyal Retainers is insane. I can see the card being expensive as discussed, but if anyone buys one for $150 they have more money than sense.

That's the benefit of living in a capitalistic system. You do have a lot of idiots who never had to work for their money so they will just spend it on everything they want no matter the price. Who cares if Retainers shoul only be double digits if there are people out there who spend double, triple or four digit amounts of money alike?

[Reverend Damaged]

Not arguing that point at all. Some people just have the money burning a hole in their pockets. Wish it was me sometimes. ;)

[dahcmai]

Oh yeah, tip of the day. Go out and buy those older cards people are ignoring right now. I tend to make a killing while people pay attention to "OMG look at this new card!" effects that Worldwake is producing. I do this every time. I'll post the deals I got later.

A couple of them are pretty silly so far. I picked up 4 Aether Flashes for 1 cent as an example. Free Shipping, heh that's funny. Good timing tard. It may not be a card used much at all or ever again, but I will always have a playset for fun decks, EDH, and possibly if someone finds a use again for a single penny. Not bad. As an added bonus I get to laugh at the poor sap who didn't realize he could actually lose money by doing free shipping on a hugely low demand card.

Be a good time to grab things like Blaze of Glory, Abeyance, Portal shit, and anything random right now. Always wanted some of those Goblins from Starter that blow up lands, nows the time.

And if you didn't know, you never, ever, ever buy Pre-orders as the cards are coming out. You will get ass-raped unless you happen to see a use no one else does. Then you jump on it quick before someone spills the beans on a forum. Notice that Amulet is already going for over $5 a shot? That's because someone mentioned the trick with having two in play and playing a CIBT land getting 2 mana out of it. That's not the greatest thing ever, but you can see how it happens.

Wait 2 weeks after the release and then cash in on the new rares. It gets way cheaper later.

[Reverend Damaged]

Notice that Amulet is already going for over $5 a shot? That's because someone mentioned the trick with having two in play and playing a CIBT land getting 2 mana out of it. That's not the greatest thing ever, but you can see how it happens.

Wait 2 weeks after the release and then cash in on the new rares. It gets way cheaper later.


I didn't even realize you could do that with the Amulet. That is pretty fun. I immediately thought about Orb of Dreams though. I always liked that card, a lot, but could never make it remotely useful. Not saying the new Amulet will make it good but it's fun to tinker with.

[Kojiro]

There's a guy who frequents PTQs in our area who has an entire binder full of Loyal Retainers. He once told me that he set aside several thousand dollars to buy every single copy of it (along with Recruiter, and Seal when they weren't near as expensive) with the intent of creating demand when it actually became good.

Why anyone would spend triple digits on a terrible fringe uncommon is beyond me. The biggest problem I have with Retainers and Recruiter are that Wizards could potentially print a card or mechanic which could replace the function they're fufilling in their respective decks and dream crush all the idiots who spent half a grand getting their playsets. I cashed out on my Recruiters a while ago, because I honestly believe Wizards will print a card similar to it (maybe 2cc and less, for instance) in the near future.

[Phoenix Ignition]

That's the benefit of living in a capitalistic system. You do have a lot of idiots who never had to work for their money so they will just spend it on everything they want no matter the price.

I love all of these angry posts about people who have more money than you. How is someone an idiot because they've got more money? Does wasting more time at your job really make you smarter than them? Are you angry that people can spend more money than you on cards?



Why anyone would spend triple digits on a terrible fringe uncommon is beyond me. The biggest problem I have with Retainers and Recruiter are that Wizards could potentially print a card or mechanic which could replace the function they're fufilling in their respective decks and dream crush all the idiots who spent half a grand getting their playsets. I cashed out on my Recruiters a while ago, because I honestly believe Wizards will print a card similar to it (maybe 2cc and less, for instance) in the near future.

Yeah for sure! I see a white/green/blue creature card in the future that costs less than three mana and has a reanimate effect, with a free ability that doesn't have the possibility of being StPed or bolted before it gets used.

Why is everyone in this thread so angry that people can spend and make money off of buying or selling cards?

[Nihil Credo]

Yeah for sure! I see a white/green/blue creature card in the future that costs less than three mana and has a reanimate effect, with a free ability that doesn't have the possibility of being StPed or bolted before it gets used.

Yeah for sure! I see a white/green/blue creature card in the future that costs less than three mana and starts out as a 3/4 and usually grows to 5/6 by the late-game, without making any mana investment or having to build your deck around it.

Yeah for sure! I see a white/green/blue creature card in the future that costs less than three mana and stops your opponent from playing mass sweepers, pitch countermagic, AND Storm kill conditions, all the while still beating for two.

Yeah for sure! I see a white/green/blue creature card in the future that costs less than three mana and beats as a 3/3, unless one of your other guys wants to borrow a point of P/T. And packs a one-mana Disenchant, you know, just in case the body isn't good enough for two mana. And is a cat.

Yeah for sure! I see a white/green/blue creature card in the future that costs less than three mana, is completely immune to countermagic, and can counter any counterspell for, say, a single green mana. And not just counterspells, but countermagic *triggers* too. And it beats for two, of course. And heck, you can cast it for RR if you want to! Maybe make it a Goblin as well because, fuck, why not?

[MattH]

Why is everyone in this thread so angry that people can spend and make money off of buying or selling cards?

Try reading the thread, maybe you'll find out why this question is so ineffably stupid.

[Phoenix Ignition]

@ Nihil: Touche, but half of those examples are on shitty creatures that see marginal if any sideboard use.

I'm more referring to the fact that white creatures are not reanimators unless they cost a karmic guide or more to play, and I'd bet good money that nothing will ever come out as cheaper than a 3 drop with a similar ability to LR.

@MattH: If you read the thread you'll notice I posted on most of the pages, so obviously read it.

How do you people not understand that the only reason you can buy singles is because dealers make enough money to keep their stores open. Obviously they price gouge, obviously people will play the market as much as possible. Unless you're one of the people who buys a case of cards to try to get all of the new ones when a set comes out, you probably got your entire collection at a price higher than the dealer paid for it.

But I understand, this is another generic bitch and moan thread of which logic is not understood. Carry on.

[Koby]

Obviously they price gouge

That's exactly why no one is happy with speculators.

[Julian23]

*sigh* talking to PI feels like banging your head against a walll...

"Your logic is flawed!"
- "No, YOUR logic is flawed!"
"No, your logic is flawed!"
- "No YOUR logic is flawed!"

yadayada

Despite claiming you read all of the talk that has been going on you keep missadressing the points MattH, me and others make. This leads me to believe that you're either just being sophistic because you take pleasure in it (aka trolling) or you're really missing what's going on. Nobody considers the practice of opening boxes/cases in order to resell them bad. In fact the more boxes are opened the cheaper those cards get. We both agree on this. "So what's the point?" you might be asking yourself. The point is, once people start gathering singles simply for speculative reasons the prices rises. You can "tackle" this phenomenom in two ways: the first would be to just dedicate yourself to neoliberal pure supply/demand/markt reasoning and argue that whatever the price of something is it doesn't matter given there are no trade restrictions. Or you can argue that prices rising more than the general inflation leads to an unhealthy enviorment. If Wizards sticks to their reprint policy the good "Legacy staples" will not be reproduced while demand keeps rising. This leads to the problem that at a certain point a LOT of people will be excluded from the format. Let me descend to your level or polemic and just state that this is bad for the format.

[pippo84]

I didn't read the whole thread, just a few pages, but I have to say prices vary from country to country. No way I will pay 200$ for a Tabernacle, I can find it for 50€! in the USA this card is much more expensive, the same goes for FBB duals. Other cards are cheaper in Europe..
Anyways some cards are actually raising prices everywhere.

[Mr.C]

I didn't read the whole thread, just a few pages, but I have to say prices vary from country to country. No way I will pay 200$ for a Tabernacle, I can find it for 50€! in the USA this card is much more expensive, the same goes for FBB duals. Other cards are cheaper in Europe..
Anyways some cards are actually raising prices everywhere.

I'd pay 50 euros even for a beat italian one.

The Retainers are up past 100, but the bid history looks fishy.

[dahcmai]

Would someone like to chime in on where you can buy these cards at these prices? I can speak several languages and would love to buy a few at much less. If I can't speak it, I bet my wife can. She's a translator for several more than I don't know.

I'd love to not pay $100+ US for some FBB Underground Seas. I have one beta and 3 unlimiteds and they just look horrid next to that beta. I bet there's a few others that would love to know this info. Hook us up Euro peoples.



By the way, here's another one. Seen the price of a Foil Daze lately? I was surprised and then again not.

[Radiant]

By the way, here's another one. Seen the price of a Foil Daze lately? I was surprised and then again not.

20-30 Euros each. Isn't that normal for widely used cards, as Daze surely is?

[MMogg]

20-30 Euros each. Isn't that normal for widely used cards, as Daze surely is?

But it was only around $10 a couple weeks ago. I almost traded my playset away at $10 each trade value... luckily, I didn't. Anyway, I'm open to offers. :wink: :tongue:

I'm a bit worried they'll reprint it or put out a promo and the value will tank.

[pippo84]

Foil Daze was approx 10€ a couple of months ago, not sure of how much it's now.
Underground Sea prices are rising a lot lately!

[majikal]

Underground Sea prices are rising a lot lately!
SCG was gouging Revised ones at $79.99 a few weeks ago, but it looks like they dropped them back down to $69.99. I actually think with Vintage becoming less popular and most of the popular legacy decks being Green-based, USeas might see even more of a decline over time.

[pippo84]

SCG was gouging Revised ones at $79.99 a few weeks ago, but it looks like they dropped them back down to $69.99. I actually think with Vintage becoming less popular and most of the popular legacy decks being Green-based, USeas might see even more of a decline over time.

In my area Underground Seas are rising because Dark Depths is becoming very popular and it's mostly a UB list.. And Dark depths is around 20€ now..

[MattH]

@MattH: If you read the thread you'll notice I posted on most of the pages, so obviously read it.

How do you people not understand that the only reason you can buy singles is because dealers make enough money to keep their stores open. Obviously they price gouge, obviously people will play the market as much as possible. Unless you're one of the people who buys a case of cards to try to get all of the new ones when a set comes out, you probably got your entire collection at a price higher than the dealer paid for it.

I guess I should apologize, I knew I had addressed this very silly 'point' but I did it in another thread, not this one. So I'll repeat it here:


The thing is, the store owner is providing a valuable service: use of their facilities to play in primarily, and other side benefits (such as sanctioning FNM for example). Speculators don't provide anywhere near the same benefit (if anything at all), so it's not unreasonable to begrudge only the latter's profits.

Bolded for emphasis. No one is upset that dealers such as Starcity or ChannelFireball exist, and make a profit. If you don't understand that, then you haven't been paying attention.

[HAVE HEART]

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=508510

This seems like a pretty big barrier into Standard.

Quite a bit more than a Legacy deck to beat: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=513163 . That person can also tack on this if they wish: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=513172 . Still comes out to less than the Standard deck.

A monetary barrier to entry is not Legacy's problem. It is the fact that it is not a competitive format; i.e. a person cannot "Play the game, See the world" playing Legacy. Notice the popularity Legacy gained when StarCityGames started the Legacy $5K's.

[Forbiddian]

Holy shit. http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=513169. Had no idea it was half that expensive.

Looks like most good decks cost about $600 for the budget decks and about $1200 for the most expensive decks (according to these inflated prices -- probably more like 300-600 in real dollars if you buy smart).

And then standard decks are 200-800 at these inflated prices (although usually dealers run slimmer profit margins against Standard than Legacy).

So legacy is like 50% more to double as expensive as Standard, but you get more resale, etc. I don't generally put too much work into reselling crap and don't want to work that hard to move my cards out before a rotation.

[MattH]

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=508510

This seems like a pretty big barrier into Standard.

Way to cherry-pick the most expensive deck in the entire standard format, running 4x of Pulse, Baneslayer, and a couple Elspeths thrown in for good measure, plus other stuff like Lotus Cobra. That's not even a particularly good deck, seeing as it managed to T8 a thirty-three player tournament. :////

Here's a check on a basic Jund build (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=512296), $252
or UWR control (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=512347), $391
or Barely Boros (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=512298), $381
or Vampires (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=512294), $170
or Valakut Ramp (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=512297), $54 (!!!)
or Grixis Control (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=512348), $154

all from the T8 of the Starcity 5k, with 332 players, so you can be assured that these represent 'real' Standard decks.

UWR is the most expensive, at (using 'low' prices) $391, but note that almost $200 of that is the Baneslayers in the board (a similar concentration of value is in the Boros deck's three sided angels). For the cost of one good legacy deck, you could more or less build the entire T8 of that tournament!

[MattH]

In fact, since I was bored, I went back and added up all the prices of the cards needed to build every deck in that top eight. To save time, I dicounted all the commons and uncommons that people regularly leave behind after drafts (I still included the more valuable ones like Bloodbraid Elf and Lightning Bolt) and I also excluded basic lands.

Total minus these reasonable exceptions was $1005.61, using "low" prices throughout.

By comparison, the top eight legacy decks for the other part of the same 5k tournament have prices:

$777 (zoo)
$1116 (lands)
$905 (UG fish)
$979 (painter)
$496 (fish)
$696 (UW nogoyf)
$939 (tempo thresh)
$485 (fish)

So yeah. Besides Fish, a single legacy deck costs only a little less than Standard: The Format.

[Nessaja]

For how long has Aether Vial been 10$? I mean.. it's not like the card isn't worth that considering how important it is for 2 top decks, but still.. seems like a lot for a not-that-old uncommon.

[HAVE HEART]

In fact, since I was bored, I went back and added up all the prices of the cards needed to build every deck in that top eight. To save time, I dicounted all the commons and uncommons that people regularly leave behind after drafts (I still included the more valuable ones like Bloodbraid Elf and Lightning Bolt) and I also excluded basic lands.

Total minus these reasonable exceptions was $1005.61, using "low" prices throughout.

By comparison, the top eight legacy decks for the other part of the same 5k tournament have prices:

$777 (zoo)
$1116 (lands)
$905 (UG fish)
$979 (painter)
$496 (fish)
$696 (UW nogoyf)
$939 (tempo thresh)
$485 (fish)

So yeah. Besides Fish, a single legacy deck costs only a little less than Standard: The Format.

That is fucking ridiculous. Those commons and uncommons are usually bought for $.25 and $.50 each (respectively) if one does not have access to those, which does add up quickly.

Also, you are being results-oriented with the evaluation of the Junk deck, which is disgusting. That means this: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=9817 must be a good deck because it top-eighted a PTQ with over 100 players? WRONG, he built it like thirty minutes before the PTQ (I actually know him; he top 50'd Worlds 2002 in Sydney). Although Junk is not the best deck in the format, it has been doing fairly well online in Daily and Premier Events. Obviously it is overpriced for its expected value, but that is irrelevant.

Pretty much any deck without duals is going to be relatively low cost. Dredge, Belcher, Storm combo without duals, Merfolk, Mono-colored Goblins. It is hard to think of a deck that reaches the $1,000 level without the help of duals. A difference between Legacy and Standard is that the expensive Standard decks are the ones that usually win (Vampires is probably the cheapest, non-loose deck, but still gets smashed by Jund), but in Legacy the aforementioned decks also have a very good chance of winning even though they are less expensive.

Legacy has a big enough card pool to be able to play with a successful mono-colored strategy, meaning duals are unnecessary to be able to play and have fun in Legacy. I own 34 duals, but I still have more fun playing decks that do not use them. If someone has to have duals to play Legacy, then I guess they have to take the monetary hit, otherwise Legacy and Standard are pretty competitively-priced.

[majikal]

You also have to take into account that the average Standard player has to "buy in" to that format every season, whereas with Legacy you pick up the staples once and then just grab whatever looks interesting from the new sets. This ends up being far, far cheaper in the long run.

[from Cairo]

You also have to take into account that the average Standard player has to "buy in" to that format every season, whereas with Legacy you pick up the staples once and then just grab whatever looks interesting from the new sets. This ends up being far, far cheaper in the long run.

To some degree the "buy in" popular type 2 chase cards are also the "interesting [cards] from the new sets". Read as: Zen Fetches; Planeswalkers; Thoughtseize/Mutavault-esque stuff. Sometimes playing only Legacy allows one to avoid having to shell out for the hype rare, like Baneslayer Angel this season or Bitterblossem from last season, but alot of the time there is substantial overlap.

[majikal]

To some degree the "buy in" popular type 2 chase cards are also the "interesting [cards] from the new sets". Read as: Zen Fetches; Planeswalkers; Thoughtseize/Mutavault-esque stuff. Sometimes playing only Legacy allows one to avoid having to shell out for the hype rare, like Baneslayer Angel this season or Bitterblossem from last season, but alot of the time there is substantial overlap.
This is only true a small percentage of the time. For every Thoughtseize you get about ten relatively expensive cards that will never be useful outside of Standard or maybe Extended to a degree, but are still needed to play the format. New lands very, very rarely make a splash outside of Extended. Zen Fetches are of course an exception to this rule, but for the most part, unless it's a utility card like Mutavault or a "break-me" card like Dark Depths, it won't see any serious play.

[crow_mw]

I just hope all of you have already bought your Loyal Retainers, so I can get mine for a reasonable price...

[majikal]

I just hope all of you have already bought your Loyal Retainers, so I can get mine for a reasonable price...

I know right? Everyone's dumping them onto eBay now. At this rate the price will crash right back down to where it started.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I know right? Everyone's dumping them onto eBay now. At this rate the price will crash right back down to where it started.

Half of them are buy it nows for 140 and no one is going to pay that much.

If people keep dumping them onto Ebay, I don't think they'll drop down to 40. It was 40 as a somewhat fringe uncommon, and now it's actually proven itself to be a part of a very well functioning 2 card combo. I'd think 80 would be a baseline price after a few months, but until then probably around 95.

[jazzykat]

My guess is it will finally settle at $60. Unless this combo starts dominating a lot of big tournaments I don't see people shelling out. I mean if you have a boner to play this deck then great but otherwise you are just going to pick another highly competitive deck to go take down a tournament with.

[MattH]

That is fucking ridiculous. Those commons and uncommons are usually bought for $.25 and $.50 each (respectively) if one does not have access to those, which does add up quickly.

You're speaking from a position of ignorance. You don't know which commons I left off, or how many, because I didn't tell you, so don't go flying off the handle like you've uncovered proof that the moon landing was faked.

Since you asked - oh wait, you didn't, you wanted to grandstand instead of discuss the issue empirically. Well, whatever, I'll provide the list of excluded cards for you anyway:

Mind Rot
Disfigure
Grim Discovery
Zektar Shrine Expedition
Rampant Growth
Expedition Map
Khalni Heart Expedition
Naya Panorama
Bountiful Harvest
Grazing Gladehart
Divination
Spreading Seas
Courier's Capsule
Teetering Peaks

Dragon's Claw
Rockslide Elemental
Marsh Casualties
Unstable Footing
Mind Sludge

Flashfreeze ($0.19)
Swerve ($0.29)
Essence Scatter ($0.13)
Harrow ($0.14)

and basic lands

I guess I should have included the four cards priced out above, whooo boy add a whole $2.42 to the $1005.61 total, I guess you really caught me there, Encyclopedia Brown!


With the exceptions of the four cards priced out above, all of these cards are between 3 and 8 cents apiece on the website YOU cited as evidence for the expense of Standard vs. Legacy. Even if you included playsets of all the cards I didn't price out (and they were not all used as playsets), it adds less than $5 to the total. There's a reason I said these cards were not worth looking up.


Furthermore, I suppose if you are the little Dutch boy holding back the sea with his finger in the dike, you might not have ever made it to a Magic booster draft, but I have done so many times, and I can assure you that all of these cards (with the possible exception of Flashfreeze and Swerve) are routinely left behind or thrown in the garbage as worthless.


Your data are just wrong. I suspect this is because you felt you had a point to make ("Look, this cherry-picked Standard decklist is in the ballpark of the cost of Legacy decks! Therefore no one should complain about Legacy singles prices!") and decided that righteous indignation and demagoguing was a better use of your time than fact-checking.

[IsThisACatInAHat?]

So yeah. Besides Fish, a single legacy deck costs only a little less than Standard: The Format.
But in one year, Standard: The Format will be 0% format-legal and almost entirely useless, with some exceptions for decks that can be ported into Extended like Affinity. Your Legacy deck will be largely equally as competitive, still 100% format-legal and probably only need a handful of replacements for new cards printed. If the deck is blown out by a rules change or format shift like Solidarity was, all of the most valuable cards in the deck, with very precious few exceptions (Tabernacle, Reset and some of the expensive goblins are the only one I can think of?), will be fully useable for a different tier 2 or higher deck that runs them.

In short, I don't think that's a fair argument to be made. Despite all the doom and gloom surrounding infinitesimally small price hikes across the board and the occasional big jumper, Legacy is still less expensive than Standard over a realistic period of time and M:tG is still an insanely cheap hobby for adults with incomes above the poverty line.

[Koby]

M:tG is still an insanely cheap hobby for adults with incomes above the poverty line.

Insanely cheap compared to collecting cars. Vastly expensive if your hobby is reading books. But the point remains - it's easy to budget $100 or so a month for magic putchases.

[Forbiddian]

My brother is a reader and spends around $100-$200 a month on recreational books. If you buy books hardcover, or read really fast, then you're spending that much if that's what takes up most of your time.

There aren't very many cheap hobbies. Sports like Golf will run you up to a thousand a month. Pottery costs a few hundred a month. Painting is more than that. Buying a Piano costs a lot more than buying up a playset of every card. Computer games probably cost $200 a month if you buy a game or two a month, plus the cost of an updated gaming rig and all the accessories.

Even the difference between a good car and that car-you've-always-wanted is like four complete sets of every set. If you play Magic enough that you consider it to be "your hobby" then you're going to save yourself a ton of money over doing another activity. The problem is that Magic generally isn't that time-consuming and you'll end up paying a few hundred for Magic on top of everything else.


Unless you're poor as fuck, though, you can afford to buy the cards. In fact, the real cost of Magic is probably the travel expense if you travel to the big tournaments. Compared to like buying a deck that you can easily resell at least in part, you'll never get the travel expense back. So even a $300 trip probably cost more effectively than that $1100 deck.

[MattH]

But in one year, Standard: The Format will be 0% format-legal and almost entirely useless, with some exceptions for decks that can be ported into Extended like Affinity.

Not necessarily. Let's look at the major money cards from that standard T8:

the M10 duals
zendikar fetchlands

Bloodghast
Broodmate Dragon
Path to Exile
Great Sable Stag
Day of Judgment
Master of the Wild Hunt
Jace Beleren
Sorin Markov
Garruk Wildspeaker
Ajani Vengeant
Vampire Nocturnus
Maelstrom Pulse
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Baneslayer Angel



These can be broken down into categories.



//Stuff that will likely be reprinted for future Standard formats
the M10 duals
Day of Judgment

These cards will likely be standard-legal for years and years to come. They are a very safe investment.


//Stuff that will retain value for use in extended or legacy
zendikar fetches
Bloodghast
Path to Exile
Maelstrom Pulse

I can't see these cards devaluing much, at least not until they rotate out of Extended in what, five or six years? These are pretty damn safe. Bloodghast is the most likely to see a significant drop when it leaves standard, but chances are very high that BG is a creature that will find more and more homes in larger formats.


//BSA
Baneslayer Angel

Baneslayer is the elephant in the room, and the 800-lb gorilla of buying into standard. The $200 playset of her is about 20% of the entire $1000 cost of buying the cards to make any of the T8 decks referenced. Her price will certainly drop - if she is not reprinted in M11, demand will drop, and if she is, supply will increase. Either way, BSA is definitely the major point in favor of your argument.


//Walkers and Nocturnus
Jace Beleren
Sorin Markov
Garruk Wildspeaker
Ajani Vengeant
Vampire Nocturnus
Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Any of these cards could fail to be good outside of standard, and none of them are shoo-ins to be reprinted in future base sets- but they all have significant casual appeal, which may keep their prices high. Walkers are a pretty big unknown, since none have ever rotated out of Standard before (the Lorwyn walkers were reprinted in M10), so their fates are the most open to interpretation; there are good reasons to believe they will retain value, and good reasons to believe they won't. I wouldn't blame anyone who wanted to lump these in with the cards in the next category.

Nocturnus may be the card here most likely to be reprinted since Wotc might get bored of having the Lorwyn walkers around for a fourth year, but its value is dependent on Wotc committing to making vampires after Zendikar block.


//The rest
Broodmate Dragon
Great Sable Stag
Master of the Wild Hunt

These are the cards that are unlikely to see play outside of Standard, have no real casual appeal, and aren't particularly likely to be reprinted (although anything from M10 has to be on the table for M11). This category is where a lot of value could be lost. The M10 cards' values are also pretty dependent on the Standard metagame; GSS cratered when Faeries rotated, from $14ish to $6ish.



While it's true that many legacy cards such as duals and FoW are the best stores of value in Magic outside of P9, a good chunk of the major cards in Standard will retain a good chunk of their value for some time. That's pretty far from being "entirely useless".

[dahcmai]

To be fair, I think I spent more on cards overall than on my Shelby GT 500. Kind of sad really.

[conboy31]

Last week I bought 5 loyal Retainers for 40 dollars each from an online dealer. Today I got an e-mail saying that the price was wrong. They refunded my money and RAISED the price of each retainer by 119 dollars. I will be interested if we can resolve this issue or if they will continue to politely say "fuck off" and they go about their daily business of poor business ethics and backing out of orders.

[MMogg]

Last week I bought 5 loyal Retainers for 40 dollars each from an online dealer. Today I got an e-mail saying that the price was wrong. They refunded my money and RAISED the price of each retainer by 119 dollars. I will be interested if we can resolve this issue or if they will continue to politely say "fuck off" and they go about their daily business of poor business ethics and backing out of orders.

And now for the obvious question: which store?

[Koby]

Funny I paid about $0.20 for a Loyal Retainers on MTGO. It's stupid sick how easy it is to recur Iona with it using Survival.

Point of the story: MTGO is now cheaper to get into Legacy than paper.

[Forbiddian]

@Matt: Obviously the value doesn't go to zero, but the value drops off considerably and unpredictably. You could be sitting on a $1000 dollar deck that drops to $800 when a new set comes out. Even if the deck didn't rotate out or anything, just new decks come up and make it more pricey.

If you're not very up on the trading, your deck can also lose a lot of value as other decks are simply designed. The Standard metagame shifts a lot faster, so a deck that was good two months ago might have updated tech or new matchups that significantly affect how the deck looks and what type of cards you'll need.

And then with rotations, all cards lose a chunk of value. Even just 10-15% on your collection can be very significant when you consider that Force of Will and other Legacy-legals are increasing in value.



But anyway, the real problem (the way I see it) is that Standard cards lose a ton of TRADING value at the local level. Even if the price doesn't drop off on eBay, it's very hard to swap up cards that nobody is looking for at the local level. And it seems unless you're a power seller, nobody gives a fuck to buy from you.


Although lately, with the power ramp on creatures, if any legacy-legal has the card type, "Creature" it's probably going to lose value in the next year or two, so the argument that "Legacy cards are forever" is much less true today than it was a few years ago. You're still safe in investing in draw or countermagia or removal, but Wizards has recently been pushing the envelope. Artifact and Enchantment removal has been printed in green (and better removal is now available for green than white). The creatures are almost universally better than they were.

Still, if you have the Legacy staples, Legacy is definitely the cheapest format to stay in. Or if you're too lazy to trade regularly or smell bad and can't get people to trade you, then Legacy is the place to be.

[Sea R Hill]

And now for the obvious question: which store?

MTG FANATIC

I have the exact same problem.
I ordered 4 Loyal Retainers @ $40 each 2 weeks ago. Last week I emailed MtG fanatic about my order and this is the answer I got (on January, the 20th):


'The order will be shipping tomorrow. Yesterday was a holiday so mail could
not be shipped, and our employess had the day off which postponed shipment
by 1 day.

Chris Tremblay
President
MtgFanatic.com, Inc.'


Today, on Januray, the 27th, ONE WEEK LATER, I received this:


Hello,

This is Chris Tremblay from MtgFanatic.com. I am writing to you regarding your order for Loyal Retainers. This item was not listed at the correct price, so I am unable to ship these items at this time. I have given you store credit for these items. If you would instead prefer a refund to your paypal account, please respond with your paypal email address. I apologize for the inconvenience.

Chris Tremblay
President
MtgFanatic.com, Inc.


SO DON'T BUY FROM MTG FANATIC!!!!
They are not honest, they don't play by the rules and just want to sell you cards if they're screwing you.

[Magik321]

MTG Fanatic is one of the more crappy stores I've seen around. Besides the crappy customer service, and rumors that they swapped NM cards for EX ones (then returning you) when you try to sell them cards, they didnt even ship out my order for 1 month. No replies nothing. After many emails later, they just said to me they didnt want to do business with me. Their president is a total ass.

Regarding the rumors I was hearing. I once sent a package of NM/NM+/pack fresh cards to them (I double checked all my cards properly and my grading is fairly strict). The cards that they rejected for not being NM, came back to me with heavy whitening on the edges. The cards rejected were secured very well, no way they could ever been damaged in the mail. Some of the cards I sent them were just opened from boosters. I doubt that was a coincidence that all the cards rejected, went to them NMish and came back damaged.

Tons of f'ed up stores around anyway.

[majikal]

MTG FANATIC

I have the exact same problem.
I ordered 4 Loyal Retainers @ $40 each 2 weeks ago. Last week I emailed MtG fanatic about my order and this is the answer I got (on January, the 20th):




Today, on Januray, the 27th, ONE WEEK LATER, I received this:



SO DON'T BUY FROM MTG FANATIC!!!!
They are not honest, they don't play by the rules and just want to sell you cards if they're screwing you.
That's weird. I've never had a problem with MTG Fanatic.

Edit: LOL, they have 17 of them for $159.99. I doubt they'll sell them for that when they're consistently ending on eBay for around $100.00.

Edit Edit: I hope they shot themselves in the foot with this one and the prices DO crash. This sort of practice makes me sick.

[conboy31]

MTG FANATIC

I have the exact same problem.
I ordered 4 Loyal Retainers @ $40 each 2 weeks ago. Last week I emailed MtG fanatic about my order and this is the answer I got (on January, the 20th):




Today, on Januray, the 27th, ONE WEEK LATER, I received this:



SO DON'T BUY FROM MTG FANATIC!!!!
They are not honest, they don't play by the rules and just want to sell you cards if they're screwing you.

Exactly. I bought them on January 17th!!! I got am email last night saying the price was wrong. What the hell were they doing for 9 days? Obviously not shipping my order.

[Mark Sun]

MTG Fanatic is one of the more crappy stores I've seen around. Besides the crappy customer service, and rumors that they swapped NM cards for EX ones (then returning you) when you try to sell them cards, they didnt even ship out my order for 1 month. No replies nothing. After many emails later, they just said to me they didnt want to do business with me. Their president is a total ass.

Regarding the rumors I was hearing. I once sent a package of NM/NM+/pack fresh cards to them (I double checked all my cards properly and my grading is fairly strict). The cards that they rejected for not being NM, came back to me with heavy whitening on the edges. The cards rejected were secured very well, no way they could ever been damaged in the mail. Some of the cards I sent them were just opened from boosters. I doubt that was a coincidence that all the cards rejected, went to them NMish and came back damaged.

Tons of f'ed up stores around anyway.

I've had similar issues. Honestly, I think their site is fucking garbage, but it does also happen that they buy some really dumb shit in their buy list, so
I do take advantage of that. They are very quick to "reject" and then "take cards to cover the cost of shipping," which is annoying. And yes, the president is a complete imbecile. Btw, has anyone sold to them recently? I haven't seen payment in almost a month.

[johanessen]

I also had problems with MTG Fanatic once. I ordered 4 Orim's Chant at 10$ each, and I added some commons or sideboard cards to avail the shipping cost. I recieved the cards two weeks after in the mail with a letter. Letter said: We have had problems with inventory and we can only send you one copy of Orim's Chant. You can get the money through paypal blablabla... very disappointed. I've never shop there again.

[conboy31]

Assuming that I get blown off by Chris Tremblay today, at the very least, I will post about it at mtgsalvation and file a claim with the BBB.

[Rune]

Have mostly had good experiences with MtgFanatic. Their NM cards actually are NM (unlike some other online sellers who seem to think that EX/Played = NM). A couple of times I bought some playsets but when I got the cards half of it was missing, and there would be a note with the order saying they were out of stock or something. Kind of sucks when I have been counting on getting those cards for a tourny.

[Nightmare]

A couple of times I bought some playsets but when I got the cards half of it was missing, and there would be a note with the order saying they were out of stock or something. Kind of sucks when I have been counting on getting those cards for a tourny.

The first time this happened, I would have been pissed. It also would have been the last time I dealt with them. This is unacceptable behavior from a store.

[Sea R Hill]

Assuming that I get blown off by Chris Tremblay today, at the very least, I will post about it at mtgsalvation and file a claim with the BBB.

Excuse me for my ignorance, but what means BBB?

I guess I should file a claim somewhere too, because now I'm scared of not gettin' my money back!

[conboy31]

Check your pms, I provided instructions.

"The Better Business Bureau of the United States and Canada offers consumers and businesses resources including business and charity reviews, complaints"...

[Rune]

The first time this happened, I would have been pissed. It also would have been the last time I dealt with them. This is unacceptable behavior from a store.

Yeah, but sadly it's the best option for me because I'm from Europe. When I bought from eBay or other online stores I got very large toll fees because people often write the actual value of the cards on the package they send. Can't say if this is true for all/most stores, but I have been reluctant to try others out. I never had this problem with MtgFanatic because they write 10$ on every package. (seems somewhat illegal, though)

[xfrt]

Conboy31,

Please send me a PM about BBB, and how i should move on. I've also been rejected my loyal retainers from mtgfanatic.

[Reverend Damaged]

I had bought 2 Loyal Retainers from MagicArsenal a week ago and I just now got a letter stating the website was wrong and they are out of stock, apparently. Took a whole week to figure out they didn't have them, though I really think there's more to it. That was disappointing.

[conboy31]

Did you buy the Chinese for 62.50 and the Japanese for 65.00? IIRC they had those 2 in stock for those prices.

[Kojiro]

On a much more positive note, I ordered 1 copy of Loyal Retainers from ABUGames.com on the same day some guy decided to buy up every copy on the internet. I received an email from them saying that they no longer had them in stock, but they would try and track a copy down for me. I received an email last night saying that the item is in stock and is now being shipped to me. They could very easily have rejected my order, refunded my money and put it up for the higher price later. Absolutely amazing customer support time and time again with these guys.

[Reverend Damaged]

Did you buy the Chinese for 62.50 and the Japanese for 65.00? IIRC they had those 2 in stock for those prices.

Yup, those were the ones.

[Odysseus]

I had bought 2 Loyal Retainers from MagicArsenal a week ago and I just now got a letter stating the website was wrong and they are out of stock, apparently. Took a whole week to figure out they didn't have them, though I really think there's more to it. That was disappointing.

WHITE LION GAMES

I bought a NM beta black knight the moment it got spoiled in m10. they wrote me days later saying due to an inventory error they no longer had the card. but would sell me an EX- alpha black knight for the same price. I had 3 secured already from other sources and by the time they wrote me back, they'd been snapped up from everywhere else. so I had no choice as I needed it for a playset. I bitched a little and they wrote me back saying I was lucky they just didnt cancel my order as was their right, because I was getting a good deal on a card that they would now raise their price on. they were pissed I got to it before them.

anyways, they offered me free shipping on my next order. so I wrote them a couple months ago to make another purchase from them and now they wont return my emails. thats good business practice let me tell you.

[MattH]

I ordered a Loyal Retainers the same day as everyone else. The site had other cards I wanted, but I made sure the order was for the LoyalR only, because I was afraid they would send me the $2 worth of EDH cards and not the Retainer and give me my $40 back (without the retainers, the S/H wasn't worth it).

The store (Shuffle and Cut) did indeed cancel my order, saying they were "out of stock". Which is pretty fishy if you ask me. However, they haven't restocked any at a higher price, so it's likely that someone ordered them all up before me, and their inventory hadn't processed that person's order before I sent in mine (this was a Saturday so they were probably not at work).

If a store Remanded your order, then relisted the cards at a higher price, write a complaint to Quiet Speculation's hall of shame:
http://www.quietspeculation.com/search/label/shame

[JACO]

MTGFanatic, MagicArsenal, MTGChicago (Stasch Kuras), Shuffle and Cut Games, and RIW are all bogus, and I'd recommend to you all to avoid them in the future.

Good online stores are ABUGames, Merlins Games, CardHaus, StarCity, and Troll and Toad.

As a consumer you can risk your money and cards and probably get screwed, or you can choose to deal with one of the good dealers above (or look to MOTL, where you can deal with individuals instead).

[Jak]

I got mine from ABUgames and had no problems. I won't ever go back to a store that doesn't give me my entire order.

[majikal]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Card Kingdom; I really just can't recommend them enough. I got my Mox Diamonds and my Loyal Retainers from them as well as some other high-dollar cards in the past without any hiccups whatsoever. They always include a few free packs of the current set if you spend a certain amount, and if it's over $100 shipping is free, too.

[lordofthepit]

I've ordered from MTG Fanatic once quite a while back (at least five years ago) with no hiccups, but it's interesting to see all these problems with the site. And I've heard of similar problems from other sources too, so it's not an isolated incidence.

I wouldn't tolerate those practices--withholding stock and changing up prices--even from an eBay dealer, and I would expect much more from online stores. Their swapping of NM cards from sellers for their own played cards is absolutely sickening. I encourage anyone with these problems from MTG Fanatic or any other site to report these issues to the BBB. My understanding is it does make a difference with enough complaints, and in the long run, it will make purchasing cards online a more pleasant experience, even if prices continue to rise.

[Mr.C]

I know right? Everyone's dumping them onto eBay now. At this rate the price will crash right back down to where it started.

Like Strategic Planning, right? Ha. Ha.

I have 4 spares. bought them as soon as I saw this thread for $40 apiece. I didn't even know they were being played in europe.

Edit: T&T has been pretty darn good for me too.

[Magik321]

I had bought 2 Loyal Retainers from MagicArsenal a week ago and I just now got a letter stating the website was wrong and they are out of stock, apparently. Took a whole week to figure out they didn't have them, though I really think there's more to it. That was disappointing.

Magic Arsenal is another of the more f'ed up stores around too. Bought 3 times. First time they rejected the order and refunded me in store credit, refusing to refund via paypal. Next they rejected another order, because they 'priced' some cards wrongly. Cards were at that price for months (cards like Armageddon by the way). Third they sent me EX/EX+ cards that were trashed. 1 card had whitening everywhere, and the back looked like someone didnt use sleeves to play with it for years. Another card that was EX/EX+ came with 4 creases and heavily damaged, and cant lay flat. Those were older cards. Even their newer stuff came with shuffle creases. I wonder how the hell they even grade their cards.

Jaco has already pointed out the better stores. Coolstuff is fairly good also. More than 40 buy/sell orders with them, only had a slight problem with one and they resolved it fairly quickly. They rejected a card that I sent it once, emailed me about it, and sent me back the card free of charge secured in toploader/bubble envelope etc.

[ryO!]

I got mine from ABUgames and had no problems. I won't ever go back to a store that doesn't give me my entire order.

indeed from my experience the best shop online is cardkingdom as they always answer to mail, their cards are in condition stated and they are fair.
CCGhouse is also nice.

[Misplayer]

While we're shouting out good (and bad) online retailer experiences, I recently ordered Magus of the Moon from ChannelFireball.com. They mistakenly sent Magus of the Moat, so I emailed them and they (after presumably checking their physical inventory versus their electronic records) put the MotMoons in the mail with no further effort needed on my end, they didn't even request I send back the Magus of the Moat (probably because they're not played or desired). Great customer service there.

[AngryTroll]

I have always had positive interactions with StarCityGames. Although they can be a little expensive, their inventory is huge (and always right), they grade properly, and they always ship very promptly. I've bought from them a handful of times, and I've always been pleased. If I have a bunch of stuff to order, it'll sometimes be the same price to order it as one batch from SCG instead of paying a lot of random people shipping on Cardshark.

[Nizmox]

I have always had positive interactions with StarCityGames. Although they can be a little expensive, their inventory is huge (and always right), they grade properly, and they always ship very promptly. I've bought from them a handful of times, and I've always been pleased. If I have a bunch of stuff to order, it'll sometimes be the same price to order it as one batch from SCG instead of paying a lot of random people shipping on Cardshark.

I concur that StarCityGames is a great store, and agree that their strongest selling point is their inventory and not their prices. Particually if you are after DCI foils, foreign cards, or duals they usually have stacks. I've ordered with them 3 or 4 times and never had an issue. Occasionally they take a couple of days to ship, and they have fairly rigorous credit card checks to begin with, but I rate them very highly.

My favourite seller however is CoolStuffInc. They don't have quite as big an inventory as SCG but they are great communicators, always ship immediately, and i really like the rewards system on their site. Having purchased over $2k worth of singles the 12.5% discount makes CoolStuff alot cheaper than many other retailers.

I'll always order from CoolStuff first and anything they can't provide SCG is my backup :)

[johanessen]

I also go for CoolStuffInc too. 15% discount on singles is really nice!! Never had problems and really fast shipping

[Jak]

I've ordered from coolstuffinc, channelfireball, blackandbluemagic, starcitygames, ccghouse, abugames (and all the other ones they own like card kingdom) and I haven't had problems at all. I would only really shop at these stores.

[cdr]

Star City is the only business that I would trust to be professional enough to honor prices. Heck, most of those other places are barely even "businesses".

[Bardo]

I have always had positive interactions with StarCityGames. Although they can be a little expensive, their inventory is huge (and always right), they grade properly, and they always ship very promptly. I've bought from them a handful of times, and I've always been pleased. If I have a bunch of stuff to order, it'll sometimes be the same price to order it as one batch from SCG instead of paying a lot of random people shipping on Cardshark.

SCG is always the first place I'll look when I need singles; Blackborder is my back-up. I've ordered a lot of singles since I got back into MtG in 2004 (after a 7 year break; Mirage -> Mirrodin) and I've never once had a problem (grading, delivery time, communication, etc.).

Somewhat off-topic, but props are props.

[Raptor]

SCG is where my friends and I are buying from for singles when we can't find them at local store.
They are always on due time and in the condition that they should be. Never had any problem..



On topic, is there anyone else trying to collect legacy staples even if they don't need them just to make sure to have them before they raise in price ?
Personally, I've been looking for decently priced cards that are staples just in case that I ever need them.