[Deck] Red Panda

[Bigface]

Hi everyone. I've been trying this deck for months, and I'd like to post it here to hear your thoughts about it. It's a WBr Aggro-Control deck, quite different from the other RWB lists I've found in the past in this forum. But let's examine the list:

// Lands
2 [8E] Plains (4)
4 [A] Plateau
3 [B] Scrubland
3 [B] Badlands
1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [10E] Swamp (3)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [EVE] Figure of Destiny

// Spells
2 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AP] Vindicate
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [DIS] Hide/Seek
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Hide/Seek
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [CFX] Volcanic Fallout
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 3 [EVE] Duergar Hedge-Mage

As you can see, except for SDT, Dark Confidant and Figure of Destiny, each other spell has a denial function. I'll explain the choices I made:

- Manabase -

6 Fetches, 3 Basics, 10 Duals grant stability as for the Manabase: I've seldom found myself without the right land at the right moment.
Volrath's Stronghold in for testing. Sounds like a good idea, too. Thanks to ScatmanX for the suggestion.

- Creatures -

Bob gets his work done very well, even though there are 12 cc3+ spells in this deck.
Figure of Destiny is a recent addiction (I used to play Kitchen Finks :rolleyes:), and I must admit it's simply great in this deck. Grows fast (with 14 R and/or W mana sources), never a dead draw even in late game, a game-winner once it grows up enough.
Tidehollow Sculler is Thoughtseize with legs. Denial + Bashing = Good stuff.

- Spells -

STP and Vindicate need no explanation. The 2 best pieces of removal for a WB deck. O.Ring is ALMOST Vindicate 5-8, so it's worth playing.
SDT is self-explanatory too, expecially if played with Bob.
Thoughtseize for hand denial.
Lightning Bolt in for Lightning Helix.
Elspeth seems like a nice choice. Great control element, helps against heavy control decks and her abilities are great for an aggro-control deck. Thanks to ScatmanX for the suggestion.
There are then some particular choices: Hide//Seek and Ajani Vengeant.
Hide//Seek: Both of its "sides" has proved useful against almost all decks. Hide gets rid of Survival, Dreadnought, Vial, Shackles, O.Ring, CB, Moat... Well, lots of annoying stuff. Seek is GOD against decks that run powerful 1x (Iona in Survival Bant, Progenitus in some UGw Thresh lists and so on) and kinda useful against some Combo decks.
Ajani Vengeant: During late game as well as mid game, this card's a bomb. Its first and second ability can save your ass. I've also found myself sometimes blocking my opponent's play (against multi-color decks) by tapping the right land at the right moment. It's worth 2 slots.

- Sideboard -

Duergar Hedge-Mage: Destroys annoying stuff, beats and its cc3 helps it avoid CounterTop. If you play in a Enchantress-full meta, go for Tempest of Light or Aura of Silence (which helps more against Stax too).
Hide//Seek: Against combo you'll need another one.
Pyrostatic Pillar: Mainly used against Combo (ANT) and Goblins. Be careful, it can hurt you a lot.
Relic of Progenitus: Survival, Ichorid, Renaimator and Thresh (possibly Enchantress and Team America too). Goyfs doesn't look so big now, huh?
Engineered Plague: Goblins, Faeries and Landstill (naming Soldier, shut down DoJ cycling effect).
Volcanic Fallout: Can't be countered? Check. Does enough damage to kill annoying little bastards (most Goblins, Bob, Enchatress, Mongoose, ecc)? Check. Surprise effect when being attacked by tons of guys? Check.

- Matchups -

As for the matchups, I'm still trying to sum up the results in order to give exact percentages. Also, data on older testing has been lost due to bad memory and the fact my HD exploded a month ago (testing made on MWS) with all the considerations I made before then. Still, I can give some approximated results.
The deck has some difficulties against Storm combo decks in general. Since it relies on hand disruption only to stop it, it's hard to survive a 12x ToA. More Hide//Seek and Pyrostatic Pillar helps.
Against Survival, I'd say it's a 50/50, both with and without side. Hide+O.Ring+Vindicate take its main engine out, and if you manage to control board's situation you can win. Duergar Hedge-Mage and Relic in for more control.
Against Control decks (Mono U Control and similar) this deck runs pretty well. Hand disruption is once again the key. If you manage to get a Figure of Destiny into play (and have it stay on the battlefield) you can win. Hide helps A LOT against Dreadnought (no life-gain for you!) and CB.
Against Enchantress things get VERY hard. It's usually faster and plays more threats than you can respond to. If there are lots of Enchantress decks in your metagame, go for Tempest of Light or Aura of Silence.
Faerie is a kinda even Matchup. Hand disruption, O.Ring or Vindicate for Bitterblossom, the important thing is not to let too many little bastards on the ground to bash you or help Spellstrutter. Go for Engineered Plague and Volcanic Fallout.
Ichorid is suicidal. There's no other way to put it. G1 is an automatic game-loss. If you have lots of Ichorid decks in your meta go for Leyline and/or Ravenous Trap along with Relic in your SB.
I still don't have many data on Merfolk, Team America, CounterTop, Thresh, Goblins, Stax variants and Lanstill. Anyone willing to test can PM me when I'm online.

And that's all. If you managed to survive after this long-and-kinda-boring description, please give me some advices to make this deck better. Thanks :smile:

[Maagler]

what are your good/ bad matchups?

[eq.firemind]

As far as I know, when split card is on stack it has cmc equal to the side you play and ignores the other side, wich means Hide//Seek is easy target for Counterbalance.
Other than that, the deck seems to be good. The only change I can think from the top of my head is -1 O-Ring, +1 Figure to have better early game and better curve for Confidant

[Arne]

''since the card's CC is 4, it avoids Chalice and CB. Seek is GOD against decks that run powerful 1x (Iona in Survival Bant, Progenitus in some UGw Thresh lists and so on) and kinda useful against some Combo decks''

False. For Bob, this card is CC2&CC2, so you'll lose 4 life when you reveal it. When you play seek, the card has a converted manacost of 2 so a CB (provided your opponent has a card with cc2 on top) or a chalice with 2 charge counters will counter it!

Anyhow, this deck looks like a lot of fun to play. I'm also curious about your matchups!

[Bigface]

Therefore I fail! :frown: I had a n00b moment back there. Damn fever...

Anyway, it's still a good card to play, since it does lots of stuff for cheap.

@eq: Yea, you're probably right. 7 permanent-removal effects are enough, and more beaters are always needed.

[eq.firemind]

@eq: Yea, you're probably right. 7 permanent-removal effects are enough, and more beaters are always needed.
In this case, do you really need 2 Swamp? You can play everything with only 1 black mana. I say this 'cause Figures are very color-intensive, so you might want to rework your manabase a little (but that depends on how many Wastes/Moons/PoPs are in your metagame).

[Forbiddian]

I don't understand the six basic / 22 land plan. Your curve is approximately tempo/aggro with only 2 4cc and only 7 3cc. Especially when you don't have Brainstorm, it seems like you will lose more games to floods than to screws. Glancing over the list, I would probably cut a basic.

I also wouldn't think having a basic mountain is necessary. It provides no additional protection against Blood Moon, and I don't think you really care for getting color screwed from red from wasteland action. You're also only running 3 fetchlands that can get the Mountain, so its presence at all seems really curious (you don't ever want Red on turn 1 and you don't really want him before turn 3-4 really -- by then you can just get a nonbasic).

3 Plains and 2 Swamps also seems a bit excessive. You don't have much WW or BB (I don't see any BB and only Duergar for WW and that's just a board card).

It seems strange that you run Lightning Helix over Lightning Bolt. I actually strongly doubt that it's correct. Yes, life is important with Bob, but Lightning Bolt can fairly often buy you extra life by virtue of the fact that it's cheaper and therefore more flexible. I'd say on average, Bolt probably saves you as much life by virtue of the fact that it's cheaper and so you can develop faster while still Bolting.

If your opponent leads turn 1 Nacatl, you can bolt it on your turn 1. It's basically the same as Helixing it next turn, except you paid R instead or RW, so you get to use your second turn drop instead of your turn 1 drop. The cheaper CC saved you 3 life AND a mana tempi, in this case, making it strictly better than Helix.

There are a dozen other situations (vs. Lackey or Magus esp) where Bolt is ridiculously better, but suffice to say that the life gain is more or less a wash against the fact that it costs you extra time to get it out on the table. With that extra mana, you could have developed more and saved yourself life the old fashioned way.

But anyway, the main reasons you wanted Helix were that CB stops Bolt but not Helix (?), and Chalice @ 1 does stop Bolt and not Helix. Ok, even if you believed that it mattered (it doesn't), you're basically arguing "I think that 2cc is better than 1cc."

*crickets* I mean, do you really think that?

[Bigface]

I know that cc1 is better than cc2. Lightning Helix was an option I chose since in my meta there used to be tons of Stax decks, and having all my removal shut down (except for Vindicate, at the time I didn't play O.Ring) by a Chalice@1 wasn't so good. Also, since I never had the occasion to regret this choice during playtesting, I thought Helix could be fine too. I guess I'll go for L.Bolt instead and cut some basics. I'll edit the list above.

[ScatmanX]

I'm testing the deck since you posted, and I'm liking it very much.
The changes I'm testing are:

-3 Hide/Seek
-1 O. Ring
+2 Lightning Helix
+2 Elspeth

Elspeth is just awesome. Hide/Seek wasan't doing much for me. 2 Helix to walk along with bolt have been great also.

I've been testing agains't zoo, and it's turning out to be a quite easy matchup. You just have to get to mid game, keep them of Sylvan Library and be ware of Price of Progress.

The only 2 things that I think should be rethought:
-Tidehollow Sculler hasen't been pleasing me (maybe he is bad just agains't zoo, I'll playtest more)
-1 more land. I'd suggest a Volrath's Stronghold.

[Bigface]

Hide//Seek doesn't do much against zoo and other aggro decks, but it works as an instant-speed removal against stuff like Nought, CB, Vial, E.E., Deed, Survival, Chalice and so on. In certain match-ups it buys you lots of time advantage (example: opponent plays Survival and has no mana left, you Hide it and gain tons of time; or your opponents plays Words of War in order to kill you in the next turn, you Hide it as soon as he plays another enchanment to draw); Seek is our only hope against Progenitus and other nefarious 1x and removes stuff we don't want our opponent to find to kick our ass (I can remember playing vs Landstill and removing in response to Standstill his last DoJ, as an example).

I'll still cut 1 and 1 O.Ring to play Elspeth, and cut 1 Scrubland for a Stronghold.

P.S. Tidehollow Sculler surely isn't very useful against aggro decks like Zoo, but it's kinda strong against control decks. They have to waste removals or other spells in order to get back what they lost, and if they can't, well, it worked as a Thoughtseize with legs. Also, it helps avoiding recursion of certain spells (ex. Life from the Loam) by exiling them. I think they're pretty good.

[pointofinfo]

I took your build and tweaked it, cutting Hide // Seek because of its lack of synergy with Dark Confidant (a.k.a. taking 4), an Oblivion Ring, and a Figure of Destiny for 4 Spectral Lynx. It's proven fairly good in the limited number of matches I've thrown against it. Having an extra layer of defense bails this deck out of scooping to Zoo or Goblins when they have a faster draw.